Technical SEO

#49: Jessica Levenson

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Jessica Levenson, Head of Digital Strategy & SEO at Netsuite.


We discuss our experiences during COVID-19, and how we’ve all been coping, and then we dive into Jessica’s background as a mom, Bostonian, sports fan, and our mutual love of the movie The Godfather.

From a career perspective, we cover Jessica’s background in science and mathematics, front-end development, and the intersection of her technical skills with her passion for content. We track her career arc and deep dive into her experiences coming up as an SEO, building a team at Tech Target, her new role at Netsuite and so much more.

In the News

Deep Dive

Finally, we deep dive into content strategy, talk about how to build your strategy from the ground up, execute the process end-to-end, how to create content that deserves a top ranking, and more.

#48: Areej AbuAli

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Areej AbuAli, SEO Manager at Zoopla and Founder of Women in Tech SEO.


We discuss:

  • How she moved from Egypt to London to study an MBA in IT
  • How that led her to find a passion for technical SEO
  • Her experiences at agencies and why she likes in-house
  • Her biggest SEO challenges

And much more!

In the News

Deep Dive

Finally, we deep dive into diversity, talk about Areej’s experience as a woman in SEO, discuss how she founded the Women in Tech SEO group and turned it into an amazing conference, and discuss advice on how we can gain better gender balance in the industry.

#44: Bartosz Góralewicz

Episode Summary

In this episode, we chat with Bartosz Góralewicz, CEO of Onely and Co-Founder of Elephate.


We discuss:

  • How he went from going to college to get his Master’s in psychology to helping his wife rank her photography website to SEO

  • His brief career as an affiliate marketer with some black-hat tendencies to transitioning to a true white-hat practitioner

  • Founding the first “white-hat” SEO agency in Poland

  • The difficulty of getting into the English SEO market

  • Founding his companies

  • Specializing in technical SEO

  • JavaScript SEO.

And much more!

In the news

Deep dive

Finally, we have a deep dive into the topic of website migrations.

#41: Jason White

Episode Summary


In this episode, we chat with Jason White, Director of SEO at PMG, a digital marketing agency based in Fort Worth, TX (but with offices in Austin, Dallas, New York, and London).

We discuss:

  • His passion for cycling and how he went from working at a bike shop to SEO.
  • His time both in-house and at agencies
  • Why he believes his best fit is within the agency environment
  • Doing SEO on eBay
  • Local search
  • Being a jack of all trades
  • And so much more!


In the news we talk about:

Deep Dive

  • We have a deep dive biggest SEO challenges. To paraphrase Frank Costanza of Seinfeld, we got a lot of problems, and now you’re gonna hear about them!

#39: Carolyn Lyden

Episode Summary

In this episode, we chat with Carolyn Lyden, President and Lead SEO at Search Hermit.

Topics covered

Articles referenced

#38: Andrew Cock-Starkey

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Andrew Cock-Starkey (better know as “Optimisey”). Andrew runs an SEO consultancy out of Cambridge, England working with clients all over the globe. He also runs one of the most popular SEO meet-ups in the UK.

Andrew's background

We talk about:

  • How Andrew’s career began 20 years ago as a broadcast journalist working at the BBC with a focus on cricket and fut ball
  • How the emphasis placed on creating fresh and timely content around the sports stories of the day really opened his eyes to the power of building traffic online
  • His time as Web Editor as Newsworks
  • His management of the website for the Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC)
  • How it all led him to found his own SEO consultancy Optimisey
  • What it’s like running the Optimisey SEO meeting
  • His Optimisey YouTube video series
  • And more.

SEO news

This episode's deep dive

And last but not least, we dive into a few overlooked SEO fundamentals including:

  • How often simple analytics configurations seem to be overlooked
  •  The use of site monitoring tools and how they can help businesses

#37: Martha van Berkel

Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we talk with Martha van Berkel, CEO and Co-Founder of SchemaApp, a service that empowers the Digital Marketer to own their schema markup strategy through to implementation without ever writing code or engaging with IT.

We talk about her background in mathematics and engineering (she also attended the MIT Sloan school of management). We also discuss how she spent almost 14 years at Cisco, what it’s like to be an innovator at an otherwise slow-moving, highly-bureaucratic company, and the circumstances that led to her going out on her own and eventually forming her own company with her husband.

In the news, we talk about Google’s recent broad core algorithm update and share our thoughts on how the industry reacts to algo updates as well as our own approaches.

And finally, we deep dive into structured data, how brands can use it, as well as what challenges SEOs face with schema and getting it implemented.

Also, follow Schema App on Twitter.

#33: Patrick Stox

Episode Summary

We sit down with Patrick Stox, Product Adviser at AHrefs, former technical SEO at IBM, and co-moderator of The TechSEO subreddit (one of the best SEO subreddits going right now) and organizer of several SEO meetups in Raleigh, NC.

We talk about:

  • How the downturn in the economy caused by the 2008 financial bubble led him to a career as a developer which eventually led him to SEO
  • His time at IBM
  • What he’s currently up to at AHrefs (also pronounced “Hrefs”)
  • The importance of practical experience rather than simply having a degree
  • The announcement that Speakable structured data is no longer restricted to news content
  • And so much more.

#31: Angela Bergmann

Episode Summary

In this episode, we’re chatting with Angela Bergmann, Senior SEO Strategist at Advance Local and fellow Ohioan! 

We talk about: 

Episode Transcript

00:00:02.280 –> 00:00:09.480
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops again here with the Page 2 Podcast. How’s everybody doing?

00:00:10.380 –> 00:00:12.960
Angela Bergmann: Right, assuming everybody’s doing great.

00:00:13.349 –> 00:00:16.410
Jacob Stoops: We’re also here with Mr. Jeff, Louella

00:00:17.910 –> 00:00:18.210
Jeff Louella: Hey,

00:00:19.470 –> 00:00:23.790
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I’m gonna need you to be a little bit more boisterous with your intro

00:00:25.380 –> 00:00:26.850
Jacob Stoops: Your two weeks out from me.

00:00:26.850 –> 00:00:27.330
Jacob Stoops: Forgetting

00:00:28.410 –> 00:00:32.640
Jacob Stoops: So like, I’m thinking you’re really coming into your own. So that’s one give me

00:00:32.880 –> 00:00:33.180
Jacob Stoops: More

00:00:33.240 –> 00:00:33.840
Jacob Stoops: Give me a little more

00:00:34.560 –> 00:00:35.730
Jeff Louella: Know, everybody.

00:00:35.850 –> 00:00:36.540
Jacob Stoops: Here we go.

00:00:36.840 –> 00:00:38.130
Jacob Stoops: And then we are

00:00:39.000 –> 00:00:40.200
Angela Bergmann: Here with

00:00:40.230 –> 00:00:42.600
Jacob Stoops: Angela Berkman. How are you doing, Angela.

00:00:43.860 –> 00:00:47.550
Angela Bergmann: Fantastic. How are you guys doing we’re doing

00:00:47.640 –> 00:00:57.900
Jacob Stoops: Awesome. Actually, I’m not doing awesome. I have to confess about 45 minutes ago. And I’m gonna I’m gonna deviate into a quick story. I got an email.

00:00:58.230 –> 00:00:59.250
Angela Bergmann: From GoDaddy.

00:00:59.280 –> 00:00:59.880
Angela Bergmann: Who I

00:01:00.000 –> 00:01:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Use for hosting. I don’t know why I use them and

00:01:02.670 –> 00:01:04.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure people will yell at me about that.

00:01:04.410 –> 00:01:04.620
Angela Bergmann: But

00:01:04.650 –> 00:01:13.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s just been who I’ve been using. And I’ve been too lazy to switch that I bought some new Linux hosting and I did not buy

00:01:15.060 –> 00:01:15.540
Jacob Stoops: 45

00:01:15.570 –> 00:01:16.170
Angela Bergmann: Minutes ago and

00:01:17.490 –> 00:01:17.940
Jacob Stoops: 45

00:01:17.970 –> 00:01:19.500
Jacob Stoops: Minutes ago so I

00:01:20.670 –> 00:01:25.560
Jacob Stoops: Just before we all jumped on had to call it GoDaddy customer service to

00:01:26.610 –> 00:01:29.640
Jacob Stoops: One cancel that order because I did not lie.

00:01:30.390 –> 00:01:30.660
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:01:31.080 –> 00:01:35.670
Jacob Stoops: And to figure out, like, who the hell hacked my account and

00:01:35.760 –> 00:01:37.350
Jacob Stoops: I came to find out that

00:01:37.380 –> 00:01:47.850
Jacob Stoops: One domain. I own. And I’m going to have to take care of it after we after we finished recording is actually now a Russian gambling websites. So it looks like

00:01:47.850 –> 00:01:49.350
Angela Bergmann: There’s been some Russian

00:01:50.460 –> 00:01:50.820
Jeff Louella: Again,

00:01:51.000 –> 00:01:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, the account. The Russian

00:01:52.830 –> 00:01:54.960
Angela Bergmann: lessons are trying to get in and impersonate me

00:01:55.410 –> 00:01:57.930
Jacob Stoops: And in fact, seem to have called GoDaddy.

00:01:58.260 –> 00:02:00.840
Jacob Stoops: With my information and ordered

00:02:01.440 –> 00:02:05.640
Jacob Stoops: The hosting for, for whatever reason, so yeah.

00:02:06.300 –> 00:02:06.330
Angela Bergmann: I

00:02:06.600 –> 00:02:07.740
Jacob Stoops: Had to reset my password.

00:02:08.310 –> 00:02:11.070
Jacob Stoops: That up some two factor authentication and

00:02:12.210 –> 00:02:13.500
Jacob Stoops: I’m coming into this

00:02:14.460 –> 00:02:16.710
Jacob Stoops: A little bit annoyed doesn’t know.

00:02:18.810 –> 00:02:21.660
Angela Bergmann: We all want to spend our Friday. Right, exactly.

00:02:22.080 –> 00:02:24.300
Jacob Stoops: Exactly dealing with Russian interference.

00:02:24.720 –> 00:02:25.140

00:02:27.300 –> 00:02:28.860
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, so

00:02:29.310 –> 00:02:32.190
Jacob Stoops: Angela good authority.

00:02:32.220 –> 00:02:33.420
Jacob Stoops: That you are a senior

00:02:33.420 –> 00:02:45.240
Jacob Stoops: SEO strategist and advanced local and I’ll have you know that you are the first Ohio and that we’ve brought on and not to say that you’re the you’re the first native Ohio.

00:02:45.810 –> 00:02:47.160
Angela Bergmann: Some other folks in

00:02:47.160 –> 00:03:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Native to Ohio, but they don’t live there. Now, you’re the first one that actually still lives in Ohio and and in terms of proximity. I’m in Columbus, you’re, you’re the closest interviewee to me in terms of actual proximity so

00:03:01.410 –> 00:03:03.300
Angela Bergmann: Congratulations Ohio pride.

00:03:03.450 –> 00:03:05.400
Angela Bergmann: Yay so guys

00:03:08.010 –> 00:03:08.640
Jacob Stoops: I oh

00:03:11.040 –> 00:03:11.730
Angela Bergmann: That’s all I know.

00:03:12.090 –> 00:03:13.830
Angela Bergmann: And people and people who do not

00:03:13.830 –> 00:03:18.210
Jacob Stoops: Follow. Follow college football are going to have no idea what actually do not follow Ohio State or

00:03:18.720 –> 00:03:19.890
Jacob Stoops: No idea what just happened.

00:03:19.920 –> 00:03:24.750
Angela Bergmann: You play hang on sloopy and will be good. Exactly, exactly.

00:03:24.780 –> 00:03:25.200

00:03:26.610 –> 00:03:27.780
Angela Bergmann: You are in

00:03:29.340 –> 00:03:30.690
Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember. Did you say you

00:03:30.690 –> 00:03:31.950
Jacob Stoops: Work in Akron and live in

00:03:31.950 –> 00:03:33.360
Jacob Stoops: Cleveland or live in Cleveland.

00:03:33.360 –> 00:03:34.680
Jacob Stoops: And work in Akron.

00:03:35.670 –> 00:03:39.870
Angela Bergmann: Upset I live in Akron, and I work in Cleveland. OK, so the

00:03:40.260 –> 00:03:42.090
Angela Bergmann: Branded up to

00:03:42.120 –> 00:03:42.540

00:03:44.640 –> 00:03:52.770
Angela Bergmann: Cool, I am I work in the land and I’m from where LeBron is from actually the same part of accurate. Even so, I have a lot of games pride.

00:03:53.490 –> 00:03:54.930
Jeff Louella: Yeah. Brown of SEO.

00:03:55.020 –> 00:03:56.760
Jacob Stoops: You go to his, his high school

00:03:57.210 –> 00:03:58.080
Jacob Stoops: St. Vincent St.

00:03:59.250 –> 00:04:06.180
Angela Bergmann: No, actually I went to the school. He didn’t go to because he went to private school. Okay.

00:04:08.730 –> 00:04:09.810
Angela Bergmann: Okay. All right.

00:04:11.340 –> 00:04:12.120
Jacob Stoops: So,

00:04:13.980 –> 00:04:20.250
Jacob Stoops: I have to ask you before we get into your background on another tangent. Did you watch the Browns game last Thursday.

00:04:21.240 –> 00:04:23.730
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally. What

00:04:24.120 –> 00:04:24.900
Angela Bergmann: Happened. I’ve got

00:04:24.930 –> 00:04:27.420
Jacob Stoops: Like I feel like I’ve haven’t been able to talk to

00:04:27.420 –> 00:04:28.680
Jacob Stoops: anybody except maybe my

00:04:29.400 –> 00:04:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Basically just

00:04:30.570 –> 00:04:32.130
Jacob Stoops: Knowing about the whole situation.

00:04:32.130 –> 00:04:32.400

00:04:33.420 –> 00:04:34.440
Jacob Stoops: What the hell happened like

00:04:34.440 –> 00:04:37.170
Jacob Stoops: What’s going on here with with our brownies and

00:04:37.170 –> 00:04:38.460
Jacob Stoops: Mr. Miles, yo.

00:04:39.720 –> 00:04:47.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s the it’s the we hate the Steelers so it’s already going to be a contentious game and then like I’m obviously mad at Garrett

00:04:48.780 –> 00:04:57.420
Angela Bergmann: Acting like an idiot. I’m sitting Rudolph from the head, but his helmet. Getting down the line, you know, open Joby shoving in not good.

00:04:57.900 –> 00:05:09.840
Angela Bergmann: You know, but like Rudolph not getting any punishment for escalating the fight is what makes me mad. And the other thing that makes me mad, is that I know that they’re escalating punishments for things, but like

00:05:11.520 –> 00:05:26.730
Angela Bergmann: Convicted wife leaders get a 16 suspension yep and Garrett getting an indefinite suspension for hitting a guy on the field during a fight that was escalated with a helmet. Yeah, use a little unfair.

00:05:28.950 –> 00:05:29.160
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:05:30.240 –> 00:05:32.040
Angela Bergmann: It’s fun got

00:05:32.670 –> 00:05:36.090
Jacob Stoops: Kareem hunt on our team and we’re not fielding a team.

00:05:36.090 –> 00:05:38.850
Angela Bergmann: Full of choir boys. Yeah, yeah.

00:05:39.150 –> 00:05:42.870
Jacob Stoops: Eight games for reading a woman and

00:05:43.650 –> 00:05:43.830
Angela Bergmann: It.

00:05:43.920 –> 00:05:44.880
Jacob Stoops: hits a quarterback.

00:05:45.210 –> 00:05:48.300
Jacob Stoops: In his head with a helmet. Now granted, he could have killed him. So there is

00:05:49.800 –> 00:05:50.580
Angela Bergmann: Reacting with

00:05:50.910 –> 00:05:51.660
Angela Bergmann: Coca Cola.

00:05:52.410 –> 00:05:53.730
Jeff Louella: In depth. I saw him kicker.

00:05:54.330 –> 00:06:11.160
Angela Bergmann: Though yeah open Jovi like Patsy kicking him while he’s down and it’s not pounds. He got lucky that he didn’t actually really connect too much, but he was kicking. Yeah. Garrett while he was down in like none of them are choirboys without this is like this.

00:06:11.250 –> 00:06:13.020
Jacob Stoops: This all happened with eight seconds.

00:06:13.020 –> 00:06:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Left and to like put in perspective.

00:06:15.480 –> 00:06:16.860
Jacob Stoops: The long history that

00:06:16.890 –> 00:06:19.050
Angela Bergmann: We have as as as

00:06:19.140 –> 00:06:22.800
Jacob Stoops: browns fans honestly as as Cleveland fan South

00:06:22.800 –> 00:06:24.750
Angela Bergmann: Until the Cavs championship. A few

00:06:24.750 –> 00:06:29.010
Jacob Stoops: Years ago, being a Cleveland fan over the course of the last 30 or 40

00:06:29.460 –> 00:06:31.140
Angela Bergmann: Years 20 years

00:06:31.200 –> 00:06:32.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s been just complete

00:06:32.430 –> 00:06:34.260
Jacob Stoops: Misery and with the browns. Yeah.

00:06:34.560 –> 00:06:37.740
Angela Bergmann: You’re sick. First off, our team was taken.

00:06:37.740 –> 00:06:39.300
Jacob Stoops: Away then came back.

00:06:40.140 –> 00:06:40.800
Angela Bergmann: Garbage.

00:06:40.920 –> 00:06:43.170
Jacob Stoops: Since it came back. Yeah, they

00:06:43.260 –> 00:06:44.040
Jacob Stoops: Always

00:06:44.130 –> 00:06:49.830
Jacob Stoops: Find a way to disappoint us so like to really put it in perspective, this is the first

00:06:50.040 –> 00:06:51.270
Angela Bergmann: Factory sadness.

00:06:51.450 –> 00:06:53.340
Jacob Stoops: Are two rivals in the same season.

00:06:53.340 –> 00:06:55.710
Jacob Stoops: That being the Steelers and the Ravens.

00:06:56.310 –> 00:06:58.620
Angela Bergmann: And I was, I was on cloud nine. I was like, yes.

00:06:58.860 –> 00:07:00.120
Jacob Stoops: We didn’t just beat the Steelers

00:07:02.460 –> 00:07:04.200
Angela Bergmann: I’m sitting there going like this is great.

00:07:04.230 –> 00:07:04.950
Jacob Stoops: This is great.

00:07:05.580 –> 00:07:06.180
Jacob Stoops: And then with

00:07:06.210 –> 00:07:07.350
Angela Bergmann: Eight seconds left.

00:07:07.380 –> 00:07:18.180
Jacob Stoops: We see this kind of melee and like my heart sinks and I’m like, they couldn’t they couldn’t allow us as fans to get out of this game without disappointing us

00:07:18.540 –> 00:07:19.470
Jacob Stoops: One more, one

00:07:19.710 –> 00:07:21.450
Jacob Stoops: More time as a brown

00:07:21.750 –> 00:07:24.060
Angela Bergmann: Exactly. For the other shoe to

00:07:24.060 –> 00:07:27.030
Jacob Stoops: Drop and like we’re gonna win the

00:07:27.150 –> 00:07:29.880
Jacob Stoops: Game and the other shoe isn’t going to drop and then Frank or

00:07:30.510 –> 00:07:32.880
Jacob Stoops: prompt me it was like, Nope. Nope.

00:07:33.030 –> 00:07:33.630
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s

00:07:34.200 –> 00:07:38.940
Jacob Stoops: just dropped in a big way in an embarrassingly Cleveland way so

00:07:39.240 –> 00:07:39.510

00:07:42.300 –> 00:07:45.420
Angela Bergmann: Have factory and stab this yeah it is the factory of

00:07:45.420 –> 00:07:46.140
Jacob Stoops: Sadness. So

00:07:48.180 –> 00:07:48.540
Jacob Stoops: The

00:07:48.570 –> 00:07:49.770
Jacob Stoops: The unimportant stuff.

00:07:49.770 –> 00:07:50.940
Angela Bergmann: Like important

00:07:51.210 –> 00:07:53.160
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. Tell us about your

00:07:53.280 –> 00:07:54.390

00:07:54.390 –> 00:07:55.440
Angela Bergmann: You come from, who are

00:07:55.440 –> 00:07:55.770
Jacob Stoops: You

00:07:55.800 –> 00:07:56.910
Jacob Stoops: How did you get into SEO.

00:07:58.620 –> 00:08:11.940
Angela Bergmann: So I got into SEO through Twitter really in like 2007 so taking it all the way back. I decided when we got our first desktop computer, and like 2000 that

00:08:12.390 –> 00:08:25.680
Angela Bergmann: Websites look really cool. I want to learn how to do that. So I taught myself how to build websites I started doing like personal journaling, as it was back then. Like you buy a domain and you create a journal online.

00:08:27.240 –> 00:08:34.590
Angela Bergmann: Got into content management systems as they were coming around. So like gray matter be to movable type

00:08:35.370 –> 00:08:52.410
Angela Bergmann: Got into WordPress got very heavily into using WordPress and like the personal website scene because that was pretty popular with like teenage girls and like early 20s adult girls, creating just personal lifestyle type sites, what we essentially consider it now.

00:08:54.150 –> 00:08:57.630
Angela Bergmann: And I got super into social media because that was a big part of that scene.

00:08:59.070 –> 00:09:08.520
Angela Bergmann: I was, I was working retail like cashier and I was super into social media playing video games doing websites and

00:09:09.810 –> 00:09:25.050
Angela Bergmann: Guy that I followed on Twitter that we had a lot of music in common with like, hey, I see you’re really good at building like WordPress sites. You’re really good at social media. We need an intern at our marketing agency. Would you be interested. And I was like, yeah.

00:09:27.600 –> 00:09:38.070
Angela Bergmann: I interviewed started internship got hired in and they taught me SEO, and PPC and kind of like where to start learning more about it and how to like pick up on it.

00:09:38.520 –> 00:09:49.980
Angela Bergmann: And I just got super into it from there and just kind of took off and I i went back and forth for a while, between like web development and then digital marketing, but

00:09:50.640 –> 00:09:59.070
Angela Bergmann: I always really liked SEO and SEO is where I really love to be and that’s finally where I get to be kind of little time after spending time doing a little bit of everything.

00:10:00.690 –> 00:10:04.230
Jacob Stoops: So what brought you to advance local

00:10:06.330 –> 00:10:11.700
Angela Bergmann: So I wanted the the advanced local because I love doing agency work.

00:10:12.750 –> 00:10:20.640
Angela Bergmann: I know that’s not typical for a lot of SEO is a lot of SEOs that I run into like to be like the in house person doing the super deep dive.

00:10:21.210 –> 00:10:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Looking through logs that kind of stuff. Whereas I really like the fast paced nature of agency work and day to day. I don’t know what vertical I’ll be looking at

00:10:31.890 –> 00:10:42.210
Angela Bergmann: So you know I have clients that run the gamut from, you know, roofers to nonprofit foundations. So it really is everybody. And I love that.

00:10:43.800 –> 00:10:53.640
Jacob Stoops: So one question I have to ask them is, so you said you love agency work, you’re, you’re, I think, a rare, rare breed.

00:10:53.730 –> 00:10:54.750
Angela Bergmann: I also

00:10:55.170 –> 00:11:00.900
Jacob Stoops: Feel like I’m a better fit in agency, a I call an agency world because it’s just this crazy

00:11:02.730 –> 00:11:04.410
Jacob Stoops: Difficult monster of a

00:11:04.650 –> 00:11:05.130
Angela Bergmann: Stress

00:11:05.250 –> 00:11:07.830
Jacob Stoops: stress ball that I seem to thrive.

00:11:07.890 –> 00:11:09.360
Angela Bergmann: In, and I think that there are

00:11:09.360 –> 00:11:10.020
Angela Bergmann: Very few.

00:11:10.950 –> 00:11:15.000
Jacob Stoops: Lot of people working in what I call agency agency world.

00:11:16.050 –> 00:11:19.860
Jacob Stoops: Not everybody’s a good fit for it. Some people are a better fit for

00:11:19.920 –> 00:11:21.210
Angela Bergmann: In house so like

00:11:21.750 –> 00:11:35.460
Jacob Stoops: Aside from just it being fast paced. What I guess intrinsic qualities do you feel like you have that sort of lend you to that versus being on the House side.

00:11:37.410 –> 00:11:50.310
Angela Bergmann: So, and this is one of the things that I really look for when I’m when I’m hiring people for our team is I look for agency SEO, you have to have a desire to know something about everything.

00:11:51.510 –> 00:11:59.670
Angela Bergmann: Not even necessarily super in depth because when you’re on the agency side you’re for a long time, you’re usually a little bit more high level. I feel like

00:12:00.270 –> 00:12:08.760
Angela Bergmann: But you need to have a willingness to be knowledgeable about everything and have that desire to learn about things that have nothing to do with your personal life.

00:12:09.600 –> 00:12:20.220
Angela Bergmann: I know way more about Windows and any girl could ever want to know, but it’s because of my, my client is. And it’s not because I necessarily interested in it, but I consume knowledge.

00:12:20.760 –> 00:12:21.360
Jeff Louella: I know more about

00:12:21.660 –> 00:12:22.680
I think you take

00:12:25.650 –> 00:12:34.440
Angela Bergmann: Like, Oh man, I just, I really needed to know which window would be perfect, which vinyl window would be perfect for my, you know, turn of the century home yeah

00:12:37.080 –> 00:12:37.620
That’s right.

00:12:38.970 –> 00:12:43.500
Angela Bergmann: But you combine that with I think people that work really well on agency.

00:12:46.350 –> 00:12:58.530
Angela Bergmann: Are those people that like to procrastinate because we work better under pressure and agency is constant pressures. So we constantly have that stimulation that we feel like we need to produce our best work.

00:13:00.900 –> 00:13:01.350
Jacob Stoops: There.

00:13:01.650 –> 00:13:02.730
Angela Bergmann: There is

00:13:03.630 –> 00:13:06.540
Jacob Stoops: I do find that there’s more pressure working

00:13:06.600 –> 00:13:09.240
Angela Bergmann: In the agency environment.

00:13:09.300 –> 00:13:16.770
Jacob Stoops: And there’s more. There’s definitely more variability, you’re not working on the same thing every day, you’re not working in the same industry.

00:13:16.770 –> 00:13:18.510
Angela Bergmann: Every day, and

00:13:19.530 –> 00:13:32.940
Jacob Stoops: For me, that’s nice. I could see where for other people. That would be pretty obnoxious and there have been times in my career where I when I have gone to the in house side where that’s what I thought I wanted

00:13:34.350 –> 00:13:46.500
Jacob Stoops: In there are times where, like, I was pretty fulfilled doing that coming to work and working on the, the same thing every day. But something about the the

00:13:47.190 –> 00:14:05.850
Jacob Stoops: competitive nature. I feel like this is not to say that in house SEOs are not great, because there are many, many great in house SEOs but I feel like the amount of pressure to drive impact leads me to be better at my job. And I think that you get more creativity.

00:14:07.080 –> 00:14:17.190
Jacob Stoops: Out of that because people are constantly trying to think ahead trying to work ahead, trying to make sure in that short time time span that you have, which is usually

00:14:17.820 –> 00:14:33.930
Jacob Stoops: Three, six, or 12 months, your contract in which the you’re getting evaluated and people are deciding whether or not to pay you based on your performance. And a lot of times because implementation is really hard. You’re not getting your recommendations implemented until well

00:14:33.960 –> 00:14:35.640
Angela Bergmann: Into that contract. Yeah.

00:14:35.820 –> 00:14:36.150

00:14:38.160 –> 00:14:39.180
Jacob Stoops: Aggressive and that

00:14:39.180 –> 00:14:41.640
Jacob Stoops: Means you have to be. We have to be on the cutting

00:14:41.670 –> 00:14:42.690
Angela Bergmann: Edge and that’s

00:14:43.410 –> 00:14:46.110
Jacob Stoops: That’s where I like to. I like to live. I like to live dangerously

00:14:46.110 –> 00:15:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, yeah, you get some you get some try. I feel like I guess a trial. A lot of fun thing because I have like that handful of clients that wants to be cutting edge. So they’re willing to pay to try the thing

00:15:01.380 –> 00:15:02.310
Jacob Stoops: What is the

00:15:02.670 –> 00:15:09.870
Jacob Stoops: area of expertise that you have, because you’ve worked on a particular client that is the furthest

00:15:09.870 –> 00:15:10.980
Angela Bergmann: Thing from your

00:15:11.160 –> 00:15:14.880
Jacob Stoops: Personality, or maybe the oddest thing for you. Besides windows.

00:15:17.220 –> 00:15:18.030
Angela Bergmann: So,

00:15:20.550 –> 00:15:25.560
Angela Bergmann: Probably um that’s so tough because I

00:15:28.650 –> 00:15:34.740
Angela Bergmann: I’m such a crazy knowledge person. I feel like everything is relevant to me because I want to know things about everything.

00:15:35.280 –> 00:15:46.980
Angela Bergmann: I probably autos, I’m not super into cars. I’m just not. But I’ve come up with some very creative ways to address SEO for automotive clients.

00:15:47.490 –> 00:15:57.570
Angela Bergmann: Because they have those inherent difficulties that come with like the content management and like inventory management system they’re locked into their page speed is always going to be terrible.

00:15:58.020 –> 00:16:09.270
Angela Bergmann: It’s a given they’re going to have technical things that we’re never going to be able to touch and there’s no point even reporting on it because they’re just, there’s no hope there.

00:16:09.870 –> 00:16:18.870
Angela Bergmann: So I have kind of work to figure out, like, what can we do that will make an effect and actually show some organic growth for them. Um,

00:16:20.370 –> 00:16:21.240
Angela Bergmann: Without

00:16:21.570 –> 00:16:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Having to get into the things that we would typically want to touch.

00:16:25.860 –> 00:16:27.000
Angela Bergmann: Jeff, you work on a

00:16:27.330 –> 00:16:29.820
Jacob Stoops: Pretty well known who will not be named here.

00:16:29.880 –> 00:16:31.320
Jacob Stoops: Automotive client.

00:16:31.440 –> 00:16:32.610
What are your thoughts about that.

00:16:33.750 –> 00:16:34.080
Jeff Louella: Well,

00:16:34.200 –> 00:16:37.500
Jeff Louella: That’s automotive parts, so it is what e commerce, but

00:16:37.650 –> 00:16:39.300
Some of those parts are so

00:16:40.500 –> 00:16:41.190
Jeff Louella: Specific

00:16:42.570 –> 00:16:42.930
Jeff Louella: And

00:16:43.380 –> 00:16:43.950
Jeff Louella: It is

00:16:44.190 –> 00:16:47.460
Jeff Louella: There’s a ton of competition out there. Right, so it’s it’s

00:16:47.520 –> 00:16:49.980
Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I’m, I’m always battling

00:16:50.040 –> 00:16:51.480
Angela Bergmann: That aspect of just like

00:16:52.140 –> 00:16:54.690
Jeff Louella: We have an oxygen sensor. It’s like

00:16:54.900 –> 00:16:57.390
Jeff Louella: I get every site has it out there. How do we

00:16:57.420 –> 00:17:00.360
Jeff Louella: Kind of get it out, but they are very

00:17:01.080 –> 00:17:01.410
Angela Bergmann: You know,

00:17:01.470 –> 00:17:03.000
Angela Bergmann: A lot of it is, but I’m

00:17:03.060 –> 00:17:04.500
Jeff Louella: Fighting is like kind of having

00:17:05.070 –> 00:17:15.180
Jeff Louella: Content like trying to build it up to where like your average consumers, looking at it. But the way that the automotive parts world works. It’s like by part numbers, most of the time. Right, so you

00:17:15.210 –> 00:17:15.900
Jeff Louella: Get number

00:17:16.290 –> 00:17:16.800
Jeff Louella: And it’s like,

00:17:16.830 –> 00:17:21.630
Jeff Louella: You’re optimizing for part number and more than someone’s looking for specific

00:17:22.770 –> 00:17:35.910
Jeff Louella: You know, general terms like brake pads or grades for me. He’s not a car person looking. But for someone who’s actually like at an auto shop. They need part, you know, ML or 973 and that comes up first.

00:17:35.940 –> 00:17:38.190
Jeff Louella: Yep. So it’s an interesting

00:17:38.280 –> 00:17:50.220
Jeff Louella: Mix there because every like more people search for Breitbart, then that bottle number, but that model number converts it like 90% while the other one converts at point 1% so it’s

00:17:50.700 –> 00:17:55.530
Angela Bergmann: Exactly. So how are we going to write content to target the actual conversion. Exactly.

00:17:55.890 –> 00:18:01.470
Angela Bergmann: So how do we beat out the other people who use the same exact model number is part of my issues. Yeah, yeah.

00:18:02.280 –> 00:18:05.460
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, I’ve done that, I, I’ve also worked with a lot of like

00:18:06.480 –> 00:18:15.900
Angela Bergmann: Manufacturers where their target audience is knows that they need the part that this place makes but they have no idea what it’s called. They just know that they need it.

00:18:17.310 –> 00:18:18.390
Angela Bergmann: Those are always fun.

00:18:19.470 –> 00:18:23.160
Angela Bergmann: Hoping engineers find engineer good time.

00:18:23.850 –> 00:18:24.270
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:18:25.140 –> 00:18:26.670
Angela Bergmann: I have a like one

00:18:26.700 –> 00:18:31.260
Jeff Louella: Thing that I know way too much about besides wedding dresses that I’ve never do that. I would

00:18:31.260 –> 00:18:31.500
Angela Bergmann: Like

00:18:31.560 –> 00:18:33.150
Jeff Louella: Working in the agency world and it’s

00:18:33.150 –> 00:18:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Like

00:18:33.660 –> 00:18:36.300
Jeff Louella: feeding tubes is one that I like.

00:18:36.570 –> 00:18:38.580
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah. This is especially them into

00:18:38.580 –> 00:18:46.830
Jeff Louella: Now, which is something that I like. I hope no one ever has to learn about but you know now that like there is a major

00:18:47.910 –> 00:18:51.330
Jeff Louella: concern out there when you do need it. So it’s like, how do we know

00:18:52.260 –> 00:18:57.720
Jeff Louella: It’s just weird marketing, things like that, because it’s just like something you expect your doctor. Just to give to you, but

00:18:58.140 –> 00:19:08.820
Jeff Louella: Our brands out there just like you see commercials on prescription TVs, like you get my arthritis medication or get my, you know, I had this where skin disease and you know there’s

00:19:08.850 –> 00:19:11.430
Jeff Louella: Only three drugs out there, but we need to be number one over those

00:19:11.430 –> 00:19:17.700
Jeff Louella: Three and and that’s kind of where I am with in the evening to world right now. It’s kind of interesting.

00:19:17.730 –> 00:19:29.580
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, no. And it’s true like medicals one of those verticals. That’s like personal and professional interest for me so I know way more about medical stuff than any one person probably others.

00:19:31.560 –> 00:19:40.650
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, there’s so many intricacies to it like is your target audience patients, is it caregivers, is it Doctor Is it manufacturers, distributors like

00:19:41.400 –> 00:19:50.730
Angela Bergmann: People don’t think about that side as well. Yeah, yeah. All of the above. So which different types of which different things, are we going to do to address each different audience. Yeah.

00:19:51.000 –> 00:19:52.110
Jeff Louella: All one site that’s already

00:19:52.230 –> 00:19:52.740
Angela Bergmann: It’s like you’re

00:19:52.800 –> 00:19:55.620
Jeff Louella: You’re trying to get to the consumer, but doctors also and

00:19:56.010 –> 00:19:58.260
Angela Bergmann: Mostly the people at hospitals that are ordering

00:19:58.680 –> 00:20:01.620
Jeff Louella: You know, it’s like, those are the people who are actually buying because

00:20:01.740 –> 00:20:02.850
Jeff Louella: As a consumer, you’re not

00:20:02.850 –> 00:20:05.640
Angela Bergmann: Necessarily buying insurance for the most part.

00:20:06.180 –> 00:20:07.380
Jeff Louella: So it’s kind of getting them. Yeah.

00:20:07.410 –> 00:20:08.670
Jeff Louella: Exactly and

00:20:08.940 –> 00:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: And computers at hospitals to you.

00:20:13.170 –> 00:20:23.220
Jacob Stoops: Yep. So I don’t know if you guys know this but Columbus, Ohio is a hub for fashion retailers.

00:20:23.760 –> 00:20:24.810
Angela Bergmann: That you didn’t know

00:20:25.410 –> 00:20:26.970
Angela Bergmann: That going in. Yeah.

00:20:27.060 –> 00:20:28.290
Jacob Stoops: Victoria Secret

00:20:29.130 –> 00:20:29.760
Jacob Stoops: The Lunatic.

00:20:30.510 –> 00:20:31.560
Angela Bergmann: Lane Bryant.

00:20:32.550 –> 00:20:34.740
Angela Bergmann: Abercrombie and Fitch all

00:20:34.920 –> 00:20:43.950
Jacob Stoops: Based in Columbus, Ohio, which is crazy. And the reason I say that is because that is my weird really weird one.

00:20:45.150 –> 00:20:45.660
Jacob Stoops: So this

00:20:45.810 –> 00:20:47.160
Angela Bergmann: Is not recent like

00:20:47.220 –> 00:20:48.810
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know anything about fashion. I

00:20:48.810 –> 00:20:49.350
Jacob Stoops: Really don’t

00:20:50.700 –> 00:20:51.570
Jacob Stoops: I can barely get up.

00:20:51.630 –> 00:20:52.200
Jacob Stoops: Pick up my

00:20:52.230 –> 00:20:52.980
Angela Bergmann: Pick out my clothes.

00:20:53.160 –> 00:20:54.540
Jacob Stoops: In the morning, and usually like

00:20:54.600 –> 00:20:55.770
It’s just t shirt energy

00:20:56.910 –> 00:20:57.540
Jacob Stoops: So,

00:20:58.620 –> 00:21:10.590
Jacob Stoops: I’ve worked on a fashion retailer, not one of those that I named a couple of years ago in more than a couple. It was it was before I had a family. So my my oldest son is six years old.

00:21:11.250 –> 00:21:21.360
Jacob Stoops: So this predates predates him so it was before. I should have known anything about children’s clothing and

00:21:22.530 –> 00:21:28.110
Jacob Stoops: I was, I was working on a fashion site for young girls.

00:21:29.190 –> 00:21:29.640
Jacob Stoops: Which

00:21:29.700 –> 00:21:30.030

00:21:31.230 –> 00:21:32.190
Angela Bergmann: Was so

00:21:32.250 –> 00:21:33.900
Jacob Stoops: Like for me as like

00:21:33.960 –> 00:21:35.340
Jacob Stoops: A young

00:21:35.790 –> 00:21:38.820
Jacob Stoops: Not even married at the time person without

00:21:39.090 –> 00:21:40.860
Jacob Stoops: Kids felt so

00:21:40.860 –> 00:21:42.990
Jacob Stoops: weird and creepy and I like

00:21:43.260 –> 00:21:52.110
Jacob Stoops: As I was working on. I was proud to be working on the brand but also I was like, I’m not going to show anybody my search history because if they saw it without

00:21:52.110 –> 00:21:52.740

00:21:54.300 –> 00:21:56.160
Angela Bergmann: Giant creep so

00:21:57.870 –> 00:21:59.670
Angela Bergmann: That’s my, that’s my weird one and

00:21:59.670 –> 00:22:01.410
Jacob Stoops: It was just, it wasn’t like anything.

00:22:01.440 –> 00:22:02.220
Angela Bergmann: Weird like

00:22:02.940 –> 00:22:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Victoria’s Secret lingerie or anything like that, or anything. It was just normal clothing.

00:22:08.430 –> 00:22:10.320
Jacob Stoops: Except, yes, girls.

00:22:10.380 –> 00:22:10.710
Angela Bergmann: And

00:22:11.070 –> 00:22:13.440
Jacob Stoops: With if somebody had looked at my computer without

00:22:13.440 –> 00:22:13.980
Angela Bergmann: Content.

00:22:14.520 –> 00:22:16.170
Angela Bergmann: And I was visiting that website.

00:22:16.320 –> 00:22:17.100
Jacob Stoops: Every day.

00:22:18.180 –> 00:22:18.420
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:22:18.960 –> 00:22:20.340
I think I would have had some questions.

00:22:25.050 –> 00:22:33.720
Angela Bergmann: People that like any if an SEO ever get arrested. Please don’t look at our search history really thinking about who we are as a person.

00:22:39.540 –> 00:22:41.880
Jacob Stoops: I wasn’t on purpose just looking at that site.

00:22:41.940 –> 00:22:42.600
Jacob Stoops: Every day.

00:22:43.440 –> 00:22:44.280
Angela Bergmann: For yeah

00:22:44.610 –> 00:22:44.970

00:22:47.280 –> 00:22:50.520
Jacob Stoops: So you did mention something when you were kind of talking about how you were

00:22:50.880 –> 00:23:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Coming up in the in the space Twitter. Twitter’s a big thing Twitter still a big thing for for the. So I would say Twitter is probably the best place to connect with other SEOs

00:23:01.830 –> 00:23:03.600
Jacob Stoops: More so than other

00:23:03.990 –> 00:23:16.770
Jacob Stoops: Newer mediums like Instagram or even Tick tock, or whatever. I think Twitter, even I think it’s like Facebook where it’s becoming maybe a little for the, the older generation when used to be the hip.

00:23:17.880 –> 00:23:18.960
Angela Bergmann: It’s, it’s definitely

00:23:20.010 –> 00:23:21.210
Angela Bergmann: Tick tock, but for right

00:23:21.210 –> 00:23:22.620
Jacob Stoops: Now it’s still the best place.

00:23:22.620 –> 00:23:22.950
Angela Bergmann: To

00:23:23.610 –> 00:23:25.710
Jacob Stoops: Communicate with other other SEOs so I do

00:23:25.710 –> 00:23:31.020
Jacob Stoops: find it interesting that you were able to connect and get a job through Twitter.

00:23:32.160 –> 00:23:32.490
Angela Bergmann: That’s pretty

00:23:33.960 –> 00:23:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Awesome. Yep.

00:23:35.670 –> 00:23:38.700
Jacob Stoops: You taught yourself WordPress. What was that like

00:23:41.070 –> 00:23:43.680
Angela Bergmann: No, it really just kind of weird because

00:23:44.850 –> 00:24:02.430
Angela Bergmann: It started with grey matter which was like a CGI based content management system and it just was so much easier than having to FTP into the site every day to like post something and then keeping that running log and and trying to keep all of these separate HTML pages organized

00:24:04.440 –> 00:24:09.870
Angela Bergmann: So it just really kind of morphed into, like, how can I do this easier and then just

00:24:11.340 –> 00:24:21.390
Angela Bergmann: It’s that I think that consumption for knowledge again come into play because it’s like, well, how do I figure this out. Why isn’t this working, what do I have to do to make this work. How do I make it look pretty.

00:24:23.220 –> 00:24:25.020
Angela Bergmann: And it just kind of went from there.

00:24:26.730 –> 00:24:33.000
Angela Bergmann: And because of that, like I got super involved in like the WordPress local WordPress community. I went to WordPress Meetup.

00:24:34.350 –> 00:24:36.300
Angela Bergmann: I hosted a word camp.

00:24:38.220 –> 00:24:51.390
Angela Bergmann: It really like between WordPress and like the digital marketing and social media is really just how I kind of built my career teaching myself these things and getting to be really good at a and

00:24:52.800 –> 00:24:55.350
Angela Bergmann: Being fairly good at sharing that

00:24:56.370 –> 00:25:02.910
Angela Bergmann: Experience and like knowledge with other people to try to explain things to them at a level that they could get it.

00:25:04.200 –> 00:25:11.910
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s how I’ve gotten some of the jobs that I’ve gotten this because I’ve been able to answer questions and explain it in a way that people can understand

00:25:13.020 –> 00:25:14.250
Angela Bergmann: You had spoken.

00:25:14.580 –> 00:25:17.400
Jacob Stoops: At a lot of word camps all across the Midwest.

00:25:17.460 –> 00:25:18.390
Jacob Stoops: Honestly, like we

00:25:18.420 –> 00:25:20.490
Jacob Stoops: We do our diligence before so

00:25:20.520 –> 00:25:23.100
Angela Bergmann: And you’ve spoken several times at

00:25:23.100 –> 00:25:24.270
Jacob Stoops: Each of these are

00:25:24.630 –> 00:25:25.470
Angela Bergmann: Columbus.

00:25:25.500 –> 00:25:28.140
Jacob Stoops: In Canton end date Ann Arbor.

00:25:28.380 –> 00:25:29.520
Jacob Stoops: Michigan. Yeah.

00:25:30.240 –> 00:25:31.230
Angela Bergmann: Baby to

00:25:31.530 –> 00:25:32.520
Jacob Stoops: Buffalo potato.

00:25:32.580 –> 00:25:41.940
Angela Bergmann: I guess I were an OSU had we were always, you have to always take pictures on were on U of M campus like in enemy territory.

00:25:43.740 –> 00:25:44.820
Angela Bergmann: Very important to do

00:25:44.940 –> 00:25:46.440
Jacob Stoops: Um, what

00:25:48.360 –> 00:25:49.410
Angela Bergmann: I think that one.

00:25:49.410 –> 00:25:52.140
Jacob Stoops: Of the questions I would also ask outside of the

00:25:53.250 –> 00:25:59.100
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of questions that come up when you start talking teaching yourself natural

00:25:59.430 –> 00:26:00.330

00:26:02.010 –> 00:26:10.020
Jacob Stoops: And now this is kind of getting into the public speaking realm but like I feel like these are all very important characteristics and we’d like to

00:26:11.010 –> 00:26:19.080
Jacob Stoops: Like to end the episodes, or at least we try sometimes we forget giving advice on like hey if you’re getting into the industry today like

00:26:19.590 –> 00:26:32.790
Jacob Stoops: What characteristics, should you look to follow or try to emulate in in other really great SEOs, and I think that like us. You have have shown and

00:26:33.540 –> 00:26:50.310
Jacob Stoops: I’m saying this because I came up in the same way I was a graphic designer who had no other choice but to teach myself web design, who then fell into SEO WordPress was a huge part of of my experience in in web design, but like

00:26:51.780 –> 00:26:55.530
Jacob Stoops: I think having that natural curiosity and I do see some people that

00:26:55.560 –> 00:26:56.790
Angela Bergmann: Come into the industry and

00:26:56.790 –> 00:26:58.140
Angela Bergmann: Like there’s

00:26:58.680 –> 00:27:05.610
Jacob Stoops: Not always the hunger there to want to dive into some of these complex problems and there’s not always the

00:27:06.960 –> 00:27:11.550
Jacob Stoops: The real desire to teach yourself one of the skills.

00:27:12.930 –> 00:27:13.290
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:27:14.280 –> 00:27:15.570
Jacob Stoops: How important do you feel

00:27:15.570 –> 00:27:19.950
Jacob Stoops: Like that part of it is when you’re kind of coming up.

00:27:21.900 –> 00:27:29.160
Angela Bergmann: I think it’s critical. I think that desire to learn everything and teach yourself everything you possibly can, is

00:27:30.000 –> 00:27:48.960
Angela Bergmann: The foundation of being a really good SEO because things are going to change. Google can make a change, tomorrow that rocks all of our world and we have to learn it right now. So if you’re not able to like pivot quickly and learn things kind of on the fly, you’re already at a doctrine.

00:27:50.310 –> 00:27:50.610
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:27:52.080 –> 00:27:57.150
Jeff Louella: No matter what I asked anyone who I’ve ever talked to you, like, what did you go to school for it.

00:27:57.810 –> 00:27:59.100
Jeff Louella: It’s never SEO right

00:27:59.100 –> 00:27:59.730
Angela Bergmann: So it’s

00:28:00.930 –> 00:28:03.270
Jeff Louella: So I’ve worked with people who were

00:28:04.320 –> 00:28:07.950
Jeff Louella: Wanted to be a gym teacher, all the way to people like

00:28:08.370 –> 00:28:10.200
Jeff Louella: Journalism is a big one.

00:28:10.650 –> 00:28:11.160
Jeff Louella: And then

00:28:11.670 –> 00:28:12.450
Angela Bergmann: The big one.

00:28:12.570 –> 00:28:13.860
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and journalism is

00:28:14.490 –> 00:28:17.970
Jeff Louella: Is great. I mean, the technical side is where they need to have the curiosity, but

00:28:18.600 –> 00:28:21.480
Jeff Louella: I’m probably the opposite where it’s like on the content side, I probably need

00:28:21.540 –> 00:28:25.140
Jeff Louella: A little more curiosity on wordplay and things like that because

00:28:26.370 –> 00:28:29.100
Jeff Louella: I’m coming from a technical background but yeah it’s it’s

00:28:29.550 –> 00:28:31.170
Jeff Louella: Having the curiosity in general.

00:28:31.170 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: And learning how to, you know, I always tell someone who’s new like build a WordPress site.

00:28:37.410 –> 00:28:38.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s just one because it’s, yeah.

00:28:38.790 –> 00:28:40.230
Angela Bergmann: There’s so much information out.

00:28:40.230 –> 00:28:45.210
Jeff Louella: There that you can’t, like, if I say build a craft CMS site right now or

00:28:45.240 –> 00:28:47.640
Jeff Louella: Go do with expression engine or go do

00:28:47.850 –> 00:28:49.140
Angela Bergmann: So high

00:28:49.260 –> 00:28:52.650
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we will type or, you know, I

00:28:53.280 –> 00:28:56.520
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those where it’s like there might not be as much out there WordPress, there’s this

00:28:56.610 –> 00:28:58.920
Angela Bergmann: Gigantic community. Yeah, that’s

00:28:59.130 –> 00:28:59.550
Angela Bergmann: And don’t

00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:04.320
Jeff Louella: Just go to WordPress com and pay you know or get a free site there like go

00:29:04.530 –> 00:29:08.700
Angela Bergmann: Now, Donald word download it and

00:29:13.080 –> 00:29:13.710
Angela Bergmann: All which is

00:29:13.800 –> 00:29:16.470
Jeff Louella: Which is fine for me now because I installed it but

00:29:17.010 –> 00:29:23.760
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like I use the One Button installed, but that’s because I installed thousands of patients on it.

00:29:24.810 –> 00:29:25.530
Angela Bergmann: So easy.

00:29:26.250 –> 00:29:28.410
Angela Bergmann: But at the same time, it’s like knowing like

00:29:28.470 –> 00:29:34.410
Jeff Louella: Okay, I got my config file up to what does the config file, it’s like okay, now it’s just like

00:29:34.440 –> 00:29:34.860
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I

00:29:35.100 –> 00:29:36.240
Jeff Louella: Get to my sequel database.

00:29:36.270 –> 00:29:37.680
Jeff Louella: What is that my sequel database.

00:29:37.680 –> 00:29:38.490
Jeff Louella: You know, and it’s just

00:29:39.750 –> 00:29:46.020
Angela Bergmann: That’s the kind of stuff, too, that when you when you’re learning it like so. I work for very large corporation.

00:29:47.370 –> 00:29:57.090
Angela Bergmann: I wanted access administrative level access on my laptop and they’re like why. And I was like, cuz I want to update my host file. And they were like, oh,

00:29:57.660 –> 00:30:09.180
Angela Bergmann: You know what, I’m like, yeah, I know what that is. I need to update it and like just having that knowledge has helped me be able to get access to the things that I need, because I know what it

00:30:10.350 –> 00:30:12.210
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s great. Yeah.

00:30:12.840 –> 00:30:14.490
Jeff Louella: So I have a little confession that I’ve

00:30:14.700 –> 00:30:15.750
Jeff Louella: Signed up for

00:30:15.900 –> 00:30:18.300
Angela Bergmann: Probably the last five years to go to WordPress.

00:30:18.630 –> 00:30:19.350
Jeff Louella: Or work camp.

00:30:19.890 –> 00:30:21.090
Jeff Louella: Paid and I never went

00:30:24.990 –> 00:30:27.330
Jeff Louella: I totally support it. I love the idea of it.

00:30:27.690 –> 00:30:32.040
Jeff Louella: I moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta. About three years ago, but at least

00:30:32.250 –> 00:30:34.230
Jeff Louella: Three years in Philadelphia. I paid and it’s

00:30:34.230 –> 00:30:35.790
Jeff Louella: Always sits on a weekend.

00:30:36.240 –> 00:30:37.200
Angela Bergmann: Which yeah

00:30:37.260 –> 00:30:38.520
Jeff Louella: Usually is good because

00:30:39.240 –> 00:30:41.070
Jeff Louella: I can go on a weekend. Like, it seems great

00:30:41.520 –> 00:30:49.680
Jeff Louella: But that’s usually family time and that’s where it goes. Like if you give me the Tuesday I feel like I’m working late today or it’s a substitute work for the conference.

00:30:50.070 –> 00:30:51.960
Angela Bergmann: But I think I paid for it every year and I

00:30:51.960 –> 00:31:02.700
Jeff Louella: Send in our Atlanta office now that I’m company on that every year. I said word camps coming sign up here and I always pay by my ticket because I support it. And then I usually never get

00:31:02.970 –> 00:31:04.290
Jeff Louella: Go, so I am

00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:05.610
Jeff Louella: Oh, you have

00:31:05.610 –> 00:31:06.090
Angela Bergmann: To go

00:31:06.120 –> 00:31:06.630
Angela Bergmann: I need

00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:07.200
Jeff Louella: I will go

00:31:09.120 –> 00:31:18.780
Angela Bergmann: I tell people all the time. I’m like, honestly, especially from the tech like SEO side like we’re cancer amazing i I’ve met some of the best people I know through that.

00:31:19.980 –> 00:31:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Actually when I was interviewing for this job. I was interviewing with john parka who’s the director of SEO still he’s on actually on our, on our enterprise side now.

00:31:31.140 –> 00:31:33.810
Angela Bergmann: But he helped start one of the word camps in Florida.

00:31:34.290 –> 00:31:45.120
Angela Bergmann: And he saw on my resume that I was on the committee for word camp North Canton, and then I was the chair for word camp Kent and word camp Northeast Ohio and then I spoke at all these word camp.

00:31:45.450 –> 00:31:50.160
Angela Bergmann: So that was like part of my interview process was talking about what I do work camp.

00:31:51.120 –> 00:31:59.250
Angela Bergmann: But like, I’ve met some of my best friends at this point through the word WordPress community. And that’s why, like I go to their camps and I talked and

00:31:59.700 –> 00:32:10.500
Angela Bergmann: I just made some wonderful connections. That’s great. I just looked it out, April 18 and 19th word camp Atlanta. I will be there. Mm hmm. And I know one of their organizers.

00:32:14.910 –> 00:32:25.110
Angela Bergmann: Yes, they’re always looking for speakers, they always especially on. I mean, just saying. Like I always talk nowadays about SEO or accessibility at them and

00:32:26.490 –> 00:32:32.340
Angela Bergmann: They’re highly attended people have wonderful question. They’re super engaged. I love it. That’s awesome.

00:32:33.780 –> 00:32:36.690
Jacob Stoops: Just how dare you prioritize your family.

00:32:37.260 –> 00:32:38.400
Angela Bergmann: Over WordPress and

00:32:40.110 –> 00:32:42.060
Jeff Louella: Ryan times I’ve just hung over from Friday.

00:32:42.060 –> 00:32:42.600
Jeff Louella: Night now.

00:32:48.300 –> 00:32:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Angela, what do you do it word camp.

00:32:52.200 –> 00:32:54.330
Angela Bergmann: So what do I do a word chill. Yeah.

00:32:55.140 –> 00:32:57.660
Jacob Stoops: You said that you said that just two seconds ago.

00:32:57.750 –> 00:33:00.030
Jacob Stoops: And I was like I was just gonna say, Well, what do you do

00:33:00.780 –> 00:33:12.960
Angela Bergmann: So now I said so now i don’t i just attend. Now, or I speak of them. Previously I was actually on the committee that actually helped around them, because they are nonprofit.

00:33:13.560 –> 00:33:18.480
Angela Bergmann: That’s how the tickets are so cheap everybody donate their time to help run the camp.

00:33:19.380 –> 00:33:34.350
Angela Bergmann: And you know, I started out just doing social media for it. So I was the one posting on social media, creating the website. And then I was the one. And I think the whole thing and getting sponsors and running it day of

00:33:36.540 –> 00:33:43.980
Angela Bergmann: Compared to some conferences word camps are super laid back jeans and a t shirt hang out with your friends.

00:33:44.550 –> 00:33:57.780
Angela Bergmann: If you’re in one of the sessions and it’s not really vibe in with you. You’re welcome to like get up and leave like it. It’s just a really like friendly open atmosphere. So it’s not it’s not too high pressure

00:33:59.100 –> 00:34:09.180
Angela Bergmann: But now. Uh, yeah, I just speak at the Now typically about SEO typically beginners level SEO so small businesses people that are just getting into marketing.

00:34:10.080 –> 00:34:23.820
Angela Bergmann: New College graduate, that kind of stuff. Just like you don’t don’t listen to the snake oil salesman that are going to be like, we’ll get you on number one. Don’t buy a link. Here’s the basic things you can do.

00:34:25.350 –> 00:34:30.300
Angela Bergmann: In the run up to getting an agency to help you. You just install used

00:34:32.370 –> 00:34:42.510
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like that’s one of the things that I actually go over as I’m like yeah install Yost ignore the green light. Um, you know, just write good content answer people’s questions.

00:34:44.460 –> 00:34:48.180
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s really what you need to do the plugins, not just going to

00:34:48.180 –> 00:34:49.650
Jacob Stoops: Magically, do the SEO.

00:34:49.980 –> 00:34:51.810
Angela Bergmann: Despite what some people think, yeah.

00:34:52.260 –> 00:34:54.150
Jacob Stoops: That’s exactly, exactly.

00:34:54.240 –> 00:34:57.600
Angela Bergmann: autopilot which is a and worms.

00:34:59.850 –> 00:35:01.350
Angela Bergmann: The public speaking angle.

00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:06.930
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of folks in our industry are either a doing it.

00:35:07.080 –> 00:35:07.800
Jacob Stoops: Or be

00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:20.250
Jacob Stoops: Thinking about doing it. What advice for those people who are thinking about doing it because you have done it so much. Would you give and kind of what types of things did you go through

00:35:22.230 –> 00:35:25.110
Jacob Stoops: before you got into it, or as you were early on in it.

00:35:27.360 –> 00:35:41.670
Angela Bergmann: So the number one thing I learned I actually learned from my husband. Um, he got finally got it through my head that just because something seems really easy for me doesn’t mean everybody else knows how to do it.

00:35:43.470 –> 00:35:54.360
Angela Bergmann: Because I’ve been doing this for so long. I don’t realize the level of things that I know and what seems really like basic common knowledge to me isn’t so common.

00:35:56.280 –> 00:36:08.250
Angela Bergmann: So even if it seems like something simple, there’s somebody out there that needs to know about it and wants to learn about it. And if it’s something you feel really confident about and you know a lot about pitch to talk about it.

00:36:10.200 –> 00:36:11.490
Angela Bergmann: Especially if you’re a woman.

00:36:14.340 –> 00:36:17.490
Jeff Louella: As an issue where it’s I feel that there’s so many

00:36:17.640 –> 00:36:18.750
Angela Bergmann: SEO conferences.

00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:21.060
Jeff Louella: Is somebody SEO blogs from the

00:36:21.060 –> 00:36:31.740
Jeff Louella: Sky News things that it’s I do have that issue where it’s like, oh, I talked about this, but like there’s a million people talking about it right now. And it’s like, what is is looking at what that

00:36:31.740 –> 00:36:33.000
Jeff Louella: Next Big Thing is out there.

00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:34.260
Jeff Louella: But in a way,

00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:36.690
Jeff Louella: The basics are still not like

00:36:36.990 –> 00:36:39.600
Jeff Louella: I’ve learned this my clients like some my basic like

00:36:40.080 –> 00:36:42.540
Jeff Louella: The basics are not being followed and

00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:44.940
Jeff Louella: You know, and internal education with

00:36:45.240 –> 00:36:46.770
Jeff Louella: My, my clients is where I

00:36:47.130 –> 00:36:48.270
Angela Bergmann: Love the focus on that.

00:36:49.140 –> 00:36:57.270
Jeff Louella: Though I sometimes feel like I’ve been doing this for a long time. I should be like teaching them all about like how to use machine learning to do better SEO.

00:36:57.990 –> 00:37:00.270
Jeff Louella: Not teaching you that like listen that right over.

00:37:00.270 –> 00:37:07.950
Jeff Louella: 65 characters on the title or or let’s add a title to our page because you know we forgot to do that, but it’s it’s

00:37:08.010 –> 00:37:20.850
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s the people forget like everybody still needs a reminder on the basics and like how the how the why the basics are still relevant. They feel like it’s a big thing. Yeah, anyway.

00:37:22.140 –> 00:37:27.510
Jeff Louella: This is a little bit basics and a little bit above right there is like that’s 90% of what we need to know and everything else is

00:37:27.510 –> 00:37:28.740
Angela Bergmann: sugar on top of it. So,

00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:30.060
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s

00:37:30.780 –> 00:37:33.810
Jacob Stoops: It’s a pretty rare situation. I’ve been an agency.

00:37:33.810 –> 00:37:50.280
Jacob Stoops: World for 90% of my career and there I can count probably on one hand, the amount of clients where their SEO strategy was so well developed that we only ever focused on really advanced stuff.

00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.890
Angela Bergmann: For the most part, when people

00:37:53.040 –> 00:37:58.980
Jacob Stoops: Have come to us. They’ve got like very basic, very fundamental problems very

00:37:59.340 –> 00:38:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Fundamental technical problems.

00:38:01.110 –> 00:38:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Or because they haven’t really ever thought of SEO or

00:38:04.650 –> 00:38:06.180
Jacob Stoops: Done keyword research, they don’t

00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:22.230
Jacob Stoops: Understand what their consumers are searching for where they should be showing up. So they had a lot of content gaps and we spend a lot of time in because SEO takes a long time because it takes a long time for implementation to occur. A lot of in most cases.

00:38:23.310 –> 00:38:25.890
Jacob Stoops: It can take years to get some of the

00:38:26.490 –> 00:38:27.210
Angela Bergmann: Stuff right

00:38:27.270 –> 00:38:35.310
Jacob Stoops: In finally in place, but the the weird juxtaposition in agency world is you don’t have years. So sometimes you’re

00:38:35.400 –> 00:38:37.800
Jacob Stoops: You’re really stuck between a rock and

00:38:38.280 –> 00:38:43.260
Jacob Stoops: A hard place. But yeah, I mean, most people come to us with basic, basic

00:38:44.520 –> 00:38:46.650
Jacob Stoops: basic needs, and we we

00:38:47.670 –> 00:38:57.090
Jacob Stoops: Are having to serve those needs, but then the flip side is on the public speaking in the conference side like I think sometimes I fall into the

00:38:58.290 –> 00:39:00.960
Jacob Stoops: The way of thinking like Jeff where it’s like

00:39:02.400 –> 00:39:17.850
Jacob Stoops: Everybody like nobody everybody I assume everybody who would be attending an SEO or WordPress conference would already know the basics. So like I i don’t pitch more because I’m like, well, what can I tell these people that they don’t already know.

00:39:18.150 –> 00:39:19.410
Jacob Stoops: And sometimes that’s the wrong way to

00:39:19.410 –> 00:39:20.460
Angela Bergmann: Think about it for sure.

00:39:20.910 –> 00:39:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I totally realized that’s the probably the the wrong.

00:39:24.210 –> 00:39:25.530
Angela Bergmann: Approach to take because

00:39:25.560 –> 00:39:33.930
Jacob Stoops: For every person in there that does know some of the basic stuff. There’s probably a new person in there that’s never heard any of it before so

00:39:34.470 –> 00:39:44.520
Angela Bergmann: Yeah. And you’ll notice that like even the SEO conferences, they’ll have a talk here and there. That’s like basically rehashing the basics and how and why it’s still relevant to today.

00:39:45.300 –> 00:39:46.800
Jacob Stoops: Did you ever have any like

00:39:46.800 –> 00:39:51.120
Jacob Stoops: Fears of getting up on stage and talking in front of a lot of people

00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:16.380
Angela Bergmann: Like I get. I get that nervousness of, like, what if I can’t answer. Somebody question. Um, but I am super outgoing and kinda like in your face. One of those types of people. So like getting up in front of a group was never a fear for me. You’re, you’re one of the lucky ones like

00:40:18.360 –> 00:40:18.930
Jacob Stoops: I have

00:40:19.350 –> 00:40:20.580
Jacob Stoops: A bit of a public

00:40:20.580 –> 00:40:39.330
Jacob Stoops: Speaking fear which I usually quickly get over but like I have a weird thing that happens to me when I, when I talk in public in most predominantly so I’ve, I don’t want to call myself a singer, but I’ve saying in public. Several times for like benefits and whatnot and

00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:41.670
Jacob Stoops: I have this thing, right.

00:40:41.670 –> 00:40:45.510
Jacob Stoops: Before I’m about to go on stage and

00:40:46.260 –> 00:40:47.250
Angela Bergmann: A couple of times.

00:40:47.280 –> 00:40:49.800
Jacob Stoops: Literally seconds before the words are supposed to come out of my

00:40:49.800 –> 00:40:50.970
Angela Bergmann: Mouth where

00:40:51.030 –> 00:40:52.290
Angela Bergmann: everything just goes blank.

00:40:52.380 –> 00:40:55.500
Jacob Stoops: And I forget all the words and literally

00:40:55.800 –> 00:40:57.180
Angela Bergmann: The words to me.

00:40:57.240 –> 00:40:59.070
Jacob Stoops: Until the second my mouth opens

00:40:59.250 –> 00:41:05.910
Jacob Stoops: And like you have no idea the amount of anxiety and stress and fear that that causes could

00:41:06.240 –> 00:41:08.190
Jacob Stoops: Could you imagine like being

00:41:08.220 –> 00:41:09.090
Angela Bergmann: Like the

00:41:09.150 –> 00:41:10.890
Jacob Stoops: Music is not stopping

00:41:12.180 –> 00:41:12.630
Jacob Stoops: You’re

00:41:12.660 –> 00:41:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Missing your cue because you forgot the what that’s like. That’s a real thing and like there have been times I feel like where I’ve been.

00:41:19.830 –> 00:41:21.000
Angela Bergmann: Getting in front of people.

00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:24.810
Jacob Stoops: That happens to me and and the light bulb just goes out.

00:41:25.170 –> 00:41:25.680

00:41:26.790 –> 00:41:30.690
Jacob Stoops: There’s a, there’s a certain amount of silence, where, like, it’s okay. But then like

00:41:30.900 –> 00:41:31.980
Angela Bergmann: As you’re trying to get

00:41:32.880 –> 00:41:34.920
Jacob Stoops: Your head and nobody knows that this is happening.

00:41:34.920 –> 00:41:36.300
Jacob Stoops: There’s a certain amount of silence.

00:41:36.300 –> 00:41:37.500
Angela Bergmann: That just awkward.

00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:50.190
Jacob Stoops: And like the lock on the more awkward. It gets and you’re inside like instead of thinking, what was I supposed to be singing. What was I supposed to be saying you’re thinking now, all these people are seeing me freak out.

00:41:50.820 –> 00:41:51.750
Say something.

00:41:54.690 –> 00:41:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Doing what it should be doing so.

00:41:56.100 –> 00:42:00.690
Jacob Stoops: Like, that’s my personal public public speaking fear.

00:42:01.110 –> 00:42:01.620
Angela Bergmann: Oh,

00:42:01.860 –> 00:42:02.790
Jacob Stoops: That’s a very real.

00:42:02.880 –> 00:42:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Thing I know other people have that

00:42:06.780 –> 00:42:19.290
Angela Bergmann: Here’s, here’s how I have that not happen and this always boggles people’s mind so you can go to like and you can see like some of the recorded where Tim says Boca um

00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:36.480
Angela Bergmann: I knew a lot of people like put together presentations and they have like cards and they like no exact. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I get up there. Wow. I just have a deck. That’s like cuse me to talk about things and I just go

00:42:38.190 –> 00:42:38.820
Angela Bergmann: Oh, man.

00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:40.350
Jacob Stoops: You’re like a Jasmine.

00:42:43.590 –> 00:42:44.250
Every time

00:42:45.690 –> 00:42:51.390
Angela Bergmann: Because like I like to read the especially when I’m at work camps, because there. I know that a lot of these people are very new.

00:42:51.870 –> 00:43:05.070
Angela Bergmann: I can kind of read the room and see what kind of questions. I’m getting asked throughout the presentation and it might shift, what I’m going to say to it’s always slightly different but I always kind of end up with the same takeaways.

00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:10.320
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, I just get up there and talk. Remember, smooth again gigantic

00:43:10.470 –> 00:43:11.880
Jeff Louella: You know 500 person.

00:43:12.300 –> 00:43:12.720
Angela Bergmann: But

00:43:13.500 –> 00:43:18.630
Jeff Louella: I’ve done tons of smaller meetups like 3040 people in there.

00:43:18.630 –> 00:43:19.170

00:43:20.220 –> 00:43:25.830
Jeff Louella: Get I definitely like to feel out the room. I know kind of where I’m going with everything. But one question.

00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:27.000
Angela Bergmann: If I had a script.

00:43:27.060 –> 00:43:29.250
Jeff Louella: That I was going off of the one question through that script.

00:43:29.250 –> 00:43:32.820
Jeff Louella: Off, then I’d be like trying to rewind like Where was I add

00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.610
Angela Bergmann: I would think.

00:43:35.850 –> 00:43:37.140
Jeff Louella: I have been told, you know,

00:43:37.170 –> 00:43:40.770
Jeff Louella: We used to have like presentation training at different companies and

00:43:41.400 –> 00:43:43.200
Jeff Louella: Like they’re like stand in front of a mirror and

00:43:43.200 –> 00:43:44.730
Jeff Louella: Practice what you’re going to say.

00:43:45.210 –> 00:43:47.610
Jeff Louella: And I get it, if I’m doing a

00:43:47.610 –> 00:43:49.110
Angela Bergmann: keynote speech media or

00:43:49.110 –> 00:43:50.100
Jeff Louella: If I’m doing like

00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:52.680
Jeff Louella: Something. Yeah, I’d like to be very

00:43:54.090 –> 00:43:59.010
Jeff Louella: You know, given take with the audience, right. So it’s, again, I have my slides. We know we got an hour.

00:44:00.510 –> 00:44:03.600
Jeff Louella: There’s been many times where I’m on slide 16 we have 10 minutes left.

00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:04.560
Angela Bergmann: Right, and so it’s like

00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:06.870
Jeff Louella: Well, these things work. But if the audience gets what they want.

00:44:06.870 –> 00:44:17.850
Jeff Louella: Out of it like I I’m not there to make like my final slides, not like a mic drop. It’s like at that time. It’s like my my job would be like if you want more information you can talk. Let’s talk right here.

00:44:18.180 –> 00:44:19.440
Angela Bergmann: Compared to be after

00:44:23.550 –> 00:44:41.400
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in I’ve been in the situations because I do a lot of advocacy for nonprofit outside of just work where like those presentations have to be more structured, but even those I leave that wiggle room because I think that’s how it helps me get over that fear.

00:44:43.170 –> 00:44:44.580
Jacob Stoops: If you guys ever seen the movie old

00:44:44.580 –> 00:44:45.030

00:44:46.380 –> 00:44:46.950
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:44:47.130 –> 00:44:51.090
Angela Bergmann: No, you have Jeff and I have a question for you, Angela, but

00:44:52.470 –> 00:44:53.760
Angela Bergmann: I guess I should have phrased it the other

00:44:54.120 –> 00:44:54.990
Angela Bergmann: Way. Anyway, so

00:44:55.620 –> 00:44:56.310
Jacob Stoops: For those of you

00:44:56.790 –> 00:45:11.370
Jacob Stoops: Folks, they haven’t seen the movie. First off, it’s funny movie so you should go see it it’s it’s old older it’s from my generation, I guess. But I guess, which makes it a little old um there’s a scene in the movie.

00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:13.500
Jacob Stoops: Where Will Ferrell’s character.

00:45:13.950 –> 00:45:23.010
Jacob Stoops: Goes up for like a debate and they’re essentially debating as part of this competition to keep the charter for their fraternity.

00:45:23.970 –> 00:45:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Loose loose fraternity going so that they can keep their debauchery of a fraternity open and so they’re having this debate and it’s it’s this this massive thing with a moderator.

00:45:37.350 –> 00:45:46.530
Jacob Stoops: And the school president who does not want this fraternity to exist, kind of tries to rig it and he brings in famed political commentator James Carville

00:45:47.490 –> 00:45:54.570
Jacob Stoops: And then they asked this really, really hard question and James Carville is about to answer and Will Ferrell goes Excuse me.

00:45:54.990 –> 00:46:06.240
Jacob Stoops: I think I could take that one. James Carville is like have added hos and Will Ferrell its character proceeds to perfectly and succinctly answer the question.

00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:17.190
Jacob Stoops: And then immediately after everybody’s patting him on the back, and he just kind of like wakes up and goes anybody’s like what the, what the heck just happened I blacked out

00:46:18.660 –> 00:46:22.200
Jacob Stoops: And for me, when I’m public speaking. Sometimes

00:46:22.200 –> 00:46:22.950
Angela Bergmann: And or

00:46:23.010 –> 00:46:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Sometimes when I’m like

00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:32.460
Jacob Stoops: When I have material that I know and I’m very, very comfortable with. I feel like there have been times for me where that kind of happens

00:46:33.150 –> 00:46:33.510
Jacob Stoops: Where I’m

00:46:34.080 –> 00:46:35.280
Jacob Stoops: going with the flow.

00:46:35.340 –> 00:46:44.820
Jacob Stoops: And it’s almost like you can do it on autopilot. And I, it makes me sometimes, when that has happened to me think of that scene in that movie.

00:46:45.960 –> 00:46:59.580
Jacob Stoops: And in that’s in. That’s the version of me that is over my over my stress about public speaking and very comfortable with doing it and very much. Josh, I think with the with the audience. And I would say like

00:47:00.960 –> 00:47:15.150
Jacob Stoops: I’ve, I feel like I i personally come a long way, but for me it’s even still awkward because there is there is that element of it. So there are people that are just so not comfortable with it and I’m definitely one of those

00:47:15.570 –> 00:47:17.220
Jacob Stoops: People even still, even

00:47:17.250 –> 00:47:18.930
Angela Bergmann: My deep into my career.

00:47:20.490 –> 00:47:23.400
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, Jeff. What’s in the news.

00:47:25.020 –> 00:47:31.380
Jeff Louella: So the biggest news this week was Wall Street Journal released an article out that

00:47:32.580 –> 00:47:37.020
Jeff Louella: was titled How Google interferes with its search algorithms and changes your results.

00:47:37.770 –> 00:47:40.170
Angela Bergmann: And as a typical

00:47:40.170 –> 00:47:42.660
Jeff Louella: Fashion SEOs went nuts.

00:47:44.310 –> 00:47:55.590
Jeff Louella: And I would say semi right so um I guess like Wall Street Journal, you know, not necessarily necessarily known as like degree to source for SEO material.

00:47:56.850 –> 00:47:57.510
Jeff Louella: But they sent a

00:47:57.840 –> 00:48:03.630
Jeff Louella: Material. Yeah, that’s where I go first. You know, for my SEO stuff, but I always get their paywall block.

00:48:03.930 –> 00:48:06.360
Jeff Louella: So I will admit that I read.

00:48:07.380 –> 00:48:08.190
Jeff Louella: one paragraph.

00:48:08.280 –> 00:48:08.910
Jeff Louella: And then

00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:10.650
Jeff Louella: Boots because I did not pay for the

00:48:10.650 –> 00:48:11.280
Angela Bergmann: Wall Street Journal

00:48:11.730 –> 00:48:13.440
Jeff Louella: And I really think if

00:48:13.680 –> 00:48:15.600
Angela Bergmann: SEOs didn’t go crazy that article.

00:48:15.630 –> 00:48:17.100
Angela Bergmann: Know what even read it but

00:48:18.480 –> 00:48:20.430
Jeff Louella: Except, like, you know, businessman.

00:48:22.050 –> 00:48:27.450
Jeff Louella: But in general, you know, it’s like one of the big things that they interviewed over 100 different people for this. They said,

00:48:27.840 –> 00:48:37.050
Jeff Louella: And it’s interesting because I guess all who you interview and the way I look at it and how they probably got their information right it’s like I interviewed 100 SEOs okay I can

00:48:37.800 –> 00:48:45.660
Jeff Louella: I can interview a whole bunch of really great SEOs and then there’s all these link builders and spammers I can interview also. So, of course, and they conspiracy

00:48:45.660 –> 00:48:47.580
Angela Bergmann: Theories right so if

00:48:47.760 –> 00:48:49.440
Jeff Louella: I’m reading some of these, and I’m going

00:48:49.650 –> 00:48:51.060
Jeff Louella: Okay, that’s a conspiracy theory.

00:48:51.060 –> 00:48:52.590
Angela Bergmann: But the Wall Street Journal didn’t really do their

00:48:52.590 –> 00:48:53.490

00:48:55.590 –> 00:48:57.240
Angela Bergmann: Actually access to that if they did.

00:48:57.300 –> 00:48:59.250
Jeff Louella: Like I know Glenn gave was misquoted on

00:48:59.250 –> 00:48:59.760
Jeff Louella: His

00:49:00.690 –> 00:49:02.640
Jeff Louella: But some of the things they were kind of saying is

00:49:03.330 –> 00:49:07.740
Jeff Louella: You know, Google makes algorithm changes the benefit and favorite big business.

00:49:08.730 –> 00:49:15.750
Jeff Louella: So that’s something people have been saying for a long time and but if you kind of understand algorithms, you look at it and saying like

00:49:16.590 –> 00:49:27.360
Jeff Louella: Do I want to order something from Amazon com or do I want to order something from the smallest like one guy who had one website, who has one product and gets

00:49:27.780 –> 00:49:28.920
Angela Bergmann: Totally trustworthy.

00:49:29.010 –> 00:49:29.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s totally

00:49:29.490 –> 00:49:31.740
Jeff Louella: Right, so there is a trust factor to this.

00:49:32.370 –> 00:49:34.470
Angela Bergmann: To me it wasn’t news, but I guess there’s some people

00:49:35.610 –> 00:49:39.930
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, there’s a trust factor and SEO. Yeah.

00:49:40.500 –> 00:49:44.460
Angela Bergmann: It’s part of the Shakespeare return eat what the

00:49:45.420 –> 00:49:47.940
Jeff Louella: Yeah. And if you read any of the guidelines, it seems

00:49:47.940 –> 00:49:50.460
Jeff Louella: Like, that’s part of it, right, then go for people who

00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:55.080
Angela Bergmann: Have like expertise and authority and trust so

00:49:56.520 –> 00:49:58.050
Jeff Louella: Another I guess was you

00:49:58.770 –> 00:50:01.590
Jacob Stoops: Know, we’re not moving past this yet, Jeff.

00:50:07.380 –> 00:50:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Seinfeld.

00:50:10.230 –> 00:50:15.750
Jacob Stoops: So Wall Street Journal. So they were they wrote an article about SEO. Okay.

00:50:16.980 –> 00:50:20.550
Jacob Stoops: They’re not an authority on SEO. So like on one side.

00:50:21.570 –> 00:50:31.200
Jacob Stoops: I’m thinking as a person who would have been interviewed well damn it would have been really cool to be approached by the Wall Street Journal to like

00:50:31.590 –> 00:50:32.040
Angela Bergmann: Have

00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:47.550
Jacob Stoops: What my thoughts but like the the cynic in me in in the person in me, who pays attention to things outside of the scope of SEO would think, well,

00:50:48.150 –> 00:50:59.550
Jacob Stoops: The Wall Street Journal is a media outlet and the reporter is probably being given a directive by their superiors and their leadership within the company.

00:51:00.030 –> 00:51:13.950
Jacob Stoops: That whatever they report it has to take a certain slant. So when things came out as being misquoted and being just probably factually wrong like

00:51:15.150 –> 00:51:20.820
Jacob Stoops: Given the environment today and I don’t want to, like, I want to bring in politics, but

00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:23.100
Angela Bergmann: Given the political environment that we

00:51:23.130 –> 00:51:24.420
Jacob Stoops: All live in today.

00:51:24.720 –> 00:51:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Where media outlets are slanted in one way or another with

00:51:29.640 –> 00:51:30.510
Angela Bergmann: Agendas

00:51:30.960 –> 00:51:40.020
Jacob Stoops: Should it have surprised. Anybody who was interviewed that they were misquoted and that this reporter found a way to push their agenda.

00:51:41.310 –> 00:51:51.840
Jacob Stoops: Pretty much, despite the evidence given by the people who were being quoted like. Does that surprise you guys that they took those quotes and slanted them the way that they wanted

00:51:53.850 –> 00:52:03.900
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know. So I’ve been. I’ve been interviewed for a couple of different media publications. I’ve been in USA Today. And I’ve been in Slate both

00:52:04.980 –> 00:52:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Her infertility related things and they both stories they they were really accurate for how they quoted me so I would probably be surprised, personally.

00:52:16.680 –> 00:52:25.560
Angela Bergmann: I think it would have more to do with finding out. So when I’m typically approached for something like that I typically want to know, like what’s the slant like what’s the endgame here.

00:52:26.040 –> 00:52:35.550
Angela Bergmann: Like what are, what is this what is the purpose because there is a purpose for the article. It’s being ready to find out what that is and see if it’s going to be in line with what you’re going to say.

00:52:37.440 –> 00:52:41.280
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we don’t want to have all this effort and time they say

00:52:42.330 –> 00:52:46.680
Jeff Louella: Oh, Google’s just, you know, not doing bad things, right, like the whole idea is you want to

00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:48.990
Jeff Louella: kind of try to expose them on it and

00:52:49.950 –> 00:53:01.530
Jeff Louella: It is I, I would be shocked a little bit right because out of all the news out there like if I was on Gawker, or Buzzfeed. Like, I expect them to maybe get things wrong. I don’t know why. Maybe, yeah.

00:53:01.590 –> 00:53:02.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s less

00:53:02.490 –> 00:53:03.690
Jeff Louella: But the Wall Street Journal

00:53:04.290 –> 00:53:19.920
Jeff Louella: Like there is this integrity with like big things right and there was a time where the, I think the New York Times explodes JC Penney for doing black hat SEO and I was kind of actually shocked that it’s New York Times exposing them doing it. I can’t like

00:53:20.040 –> 00:53:21.180
Jeff Louella: Oh, Wall Street Journal

00:53:22.110 –> 00:53:32.400
Jeff Louella: Same to me. Same level, not knowing. Like I don’t read it. I’m actually but in my head, same level of professionalism, we get things right and misquoting like if it was a little misquote great but

00:53:32.940 –> 00:53:41.250
Jeff Louella: Are not great but you know an understandable, but I mean, as I think when Gabe said like he was not even a he was off the record. He was not even

00:53:41.760 –> 00:53:50.760
Jeff Louella: Mentioned in the article, and then they mentioned them with a, you know, with our misquote or me up because he said he’d never said that. So to me that’s not misquoting that’s just making up a quote

00:53:51.420 –> 00:54:07.980
Jeff Louella: And it looks at that going like, oh, that’s not great. And then just the topics that were in there. I think are easily understandable by most easily understandable, but most SEOs won’t say it’s black magic and that people were back there, controlling it like

00:54:08.430 –> 00:54:10.470
Jeff Louella: Of course they have people looking at results and

00:54:10.500 –> 00:54:18.780
Jeff Louella: Altering algorithms based on that because they want to make sure, like we are getting what we want and as a as a customer or

00:54:18.810 –> 00:54:20.220
Angela Bergmann: You know, my wife who doesn’t get SEO.

00:54:20.640 –> 00:54:22.500
Jeff Louella: she’s getting what she wants. When she typed it in

00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:23.970
Jeff Louella: Like you have to

00:54:24.000 –> 00:54:24.990
Angela Bergmann: Look at the results.

00:54:25.020 –> 00:54:26.670
Angela Bergmann: And then all term with what

00:54:26.790 –> 00:54:28.290
Jeff Louella: What is great and it’s like again.

00:54:28.680 –> 00:54:30.300
Jeff Louella: We have 17

00:54:30.840 –> 00:54:34.590
Jeff Louella: Sites that didn’t make sense to me or one that okay it’s Wikipedia.

00:54:35.100 –> 00:54:37.920
Jeff Louella: Into the biggest site out there for information like of course they’re

00:54:37.920 –> 00:54:38.700
Jeff Louella: Gonna be up there all the time.

00:54:40.230 –> 00:54:44.190
Angela Bergmann: That’s the thing that like boggles my mind will articles like this where it’s like

00:54:44.790 –> 00:54:57.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, Google, the business, obviously they’re in it. They’re making money at the end of the day, though they only make money if they give people what they’re looking for. So that’s still their end goal their end goal still to give the consumer what they want.

00:54:58.860 –> 00:54:59.130
Angela Bergmann: And

00:55:00.600 –> 00:55:00.930
Angela Bergmann: It’s

00:55:00.960 –> 00:55:01.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s funny, like

00:55:03.210 –> 00:55:06.600
Jacob Stoops: Google is the reason I have a job, but then

00:55:06.720 –> 00:55:08.400
Angela Bergmann: There are a lot of times where I think

00:55:08.400 –> 00:55:09.840
Angela Bergmann: Google is

00:55:09.960 –> 00:55:12.090
Jacob Stoops: Evil sometimes. Yeah.

00:55:13.200 –> 00:55:14.790
Thank you a lot of things.

00:55:17.520 –> 00:55:18.840
Jacob Stoops: They say for users.

00:55:18.960 –> 00:55:25.350
Jacob Stoops: But really like a lot of stuff is to enrich the folks within the company and to affect

00:55:25.440 –> 00:55:25.980
Angela Bergmann: Oh, yeah.

00:55:26.790 –> 00:55:32.160
Angela Bergmann: And their shareholders and things, things of that nature. I actually don’t believe that this

00:55:32.160 –> 00:55:47.430
Jacob Stoops: Story is one of those things that I think it’s supposed to indict Google and I think maybe the average person who doesn’t do what we do will read it and think, what the hell’s going on at Google and will think that they’re the evil empire.

00:55:47.460 –> 00:55:50.760
Angela Bergmann: I think for the folks. Yeah, interviewed and for the folks

00:55:50.760 –> 00:55:59.340
Jacob Stoops: Inside the industry like I don’t take this article so seriously because I think that the way it’s being slanted is just

00:56:00.810 –> 00:56:04.650
Jacob Stoops: If stating things that aren’t a problem like they are a problem.

00:56:05.310 –> 00:56:06.570
Jacob Stoops: And I think the other side of

00:56:06.570 –> 00:56:07.740
Jacob Stoops: This is if I were one of the

00:56:07.740 –> 00:56:09.000
Jacob Stoops: People that got interviewed

00:56:10.080 –> 00:56:24.480
Jacob Stoops: I think what I was trying to say earlier is like, I don’t. I think they were being naive to think that a publication like this in in Jeff when that JC Penney thing happened. I feel like that’s more than 10 years ago the climate.

00:56:24.750 –> 00:56:27.330
Jacob Stoops: With media in that 10 years

00:56:27.660 –> 00:56:29.730
Angela Bergmann: Has changed radically

00:56:29.790 –> 00:56:31.530
Jacob Stoops: Especially with what’s going on in

00:56:31.740 –> 00:56:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Politics right now and it’s kind of like Hatfields and McCoys where like

00:56:37.380 –> 00:56:38.580
Jacob Stoops: One media outlet

00:56:39.180 –> 00:56:39.480
Angela Bergmann: Is

00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:46.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s very black and white against one side and the other media outlet outlet is very black and white against the other. And there’s no middle we

00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:55.320
Angela Bergmann: Are we are the enemy currently say I work on the agency side, but I still work for a media Publishing Company, first and foremost, we are the enemy right

00:56:55.650 –> 00:56:57.450
Jacob Stoops: So there’s a lot of bias.

00:56:57.930 –> 00:57:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Going on. So, so for these people like they have a right

00:57:01.470 –> 00:57:03.450
Jacob Stoops: To be pissed. I would be pissed if I was

00:57:03.480 –> 00:57:04.800
Jacob Stoops: misquoted or

00:57:04.830 –> 00:57:07.620
Jacob Stoops: Completely like having something a true. Oh, yeah.

00:57:07.950 –> 00:57:09.330
Angela Bergmann: You did. I didn’t say, but at the same

00:57:09.330 –> 00:57:12.900
Jacob Stoops: Time, like, consider the source. This is the wall.

00:57:12.900 –> 00:57:13.620
Jacob Stoops: Street Journal

00:57:14.190 –> 00:57:15.300
Jacob Stoops: They’re probably pushing an

00:57:15.300 –> 00:57:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Agenda, they’re not

00:57:17.760 –> 00:57:19.890
Angela Bergmann: An S. It’s not like their Search Engine Land.

00:57:19.950 –> 00:57:27.210
Jacob Stoops: Right. They’re not SEO news so they’re not people that know what goes on in the inner workings every day, like we do.

00:57:27.510 –> 00:57:44.310
Jacob Stoops: So, like, just by the very nature of it, they’re probably going to get some of it wrong or miss attribute or misunderstand some of what you’re saying. And when you layer that into the idea that there might be some sort of ulterior motive on the part of the reporter or the

00:57:45.630 –> 00:57:47.460
Jacob Stoops: The entity doing the publishing

00:57:48.690 –> 00:58:00.120
Jacob Stoops: I just think that probably the folks might have been a little naive to think that that wasn’t going to happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether they if I were in their situation being quoted

00:58:00.180 –> 00:58:01.680
Jacob Stoops: I probably would have provided a

00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Quote, to not saying that I wouldn’t have been it’s just an interesting way to, to think about it and I probably would have been mad if they miss quoted me. I don’t know if I would have thought of that way like cynically like I guess I should have expected it.

00:58:18.300 –> 00:58:30.390
Jacob Stoops: And I would imagine being in their place. Maybe they did think about that. Maybe they didn’t but like looking at it from an outsider’s perspective. I’m not surprised that it got distorted. So that’s my two cents.

00:58:31.530 –> 00:58:35.430
Jacob Stoops: Everybody in SEO who got quoted feel feel free to come and tap me but

00:58:36.300 –> 00:58:36.900
Jacob Stoops: I hope you don’t

00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:39.690
Angela Bergmann: I don’t want a part of

00:58:39.930 –> 00:58:40.650
Angela Bergmann: Twitter drama.

00:58:42.030 –> 00:58:44.460
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jeff, you can move on. That’s my piece.

00:58:44.940 –> 00:58:57.240
Jeff Louella: Cool. I mean, there was other parts to the story too. So, I mean, one of it. That was like a big thing right that Google’s manually changing things they’ve engineers behind that. Like they said that, you know, even a bot.

00:58:57.990 –> 00:58:58.950
Angela Bergmann: Placements

00:58:58.980 –> 00:59:00.420
Jeff Louella: You know, did to be better and

00:59:00.420 –> 00:59:00.960
Angela Bergmann: The search

00:59:02.220 –> 00:59:05.880
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, Hey, thank you for that upgrade, but I don’t think

00:59:06.660 –> 00:59:08.310
Jacob Stoops: That’s just called paid search

00:59:08.520 –> 00:59:09.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, so there was

00:59:10.080 –> 00:59:11.070
Jeff Louella: They’ve done paid search and

00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:16.050
Jeff Louella: Search. Right. So it’s, yeah, there were, there was a ton. You know, I think when the part of

00:59:16.350 –> 00:59:18.270
Angela Bergmann: A bigger budget. That’s not fair.

00:59:19.980 –> 00:59:23.400
Jeff Louella: They will parts of the Google employees thousand paid contractors

00:59:23.760 –> 00:59:29.070
Jeff Louella: Whose sole purpose is to assess the quality of the algorithm and rankings like that is a negative thing.

00:59:30.120 –> 00:59:30.780
Jeff Louella: Like and

00:59:30.990 –> 00:59:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Lots of corporations high opaque attractors to do things.

00:59:35.880 –> 00:59:48.390
Jeff Louella: But then they survey them and say, Okay, did you see the results that you expected. And they will say like yes or no. I think this should be here and there, and that’s where really brand dominance comes into play. Like if I’m searching for

00:59:48.870 –> 00:59:49.200
Jeff Louella: You know,

00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:50.820
Jeff Louella: Some sort of

00:59:51.690 –> 00:59:57.870
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, a stroller. And like I was expecting target to show up because targets right down the street from me.

00:59:58.470 –> 01:00:09.240
Jeff Louella: And I didn’t get target, I would probably say, hey, I thought like started with me there and then Google can just things to maybe get results, but they’re not like targets not calling them and saying, hey, we’re not number one.

01:00:10.110 –> 01:00:11.130
Jeff Louella: Let’s put us in this place.

01:00:11.160 –> 01:00:11.790
Jeff Louella: And they

01:00:12.510 –> 01:00:19.410
Jeff Louella: They’re saying this is across thousands of contractors, right, like a quick like you’re not just going to tweak something and be like, Okay. Like, that’s probably

01:00:19.830 –> 01:00:33.270
Jeff Louella: Everything with Google. One of the ranking factors, right, because other things come into place. You know, we know links and content and all this other stuff comes into play. But at the end, if there are giving you the results you you’re not going to use them. Right, so it’s

01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:33.780
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of

01:00:34.770 –> 01:00:36.000
Jeff Louella: The effect of where it’s

01:00:36.030 –> 01:00:45.750
Jeff Louella: You know, we see this on the side of things, right, where it’s, I mean, there’s one reason. Google is Google. And that’s because they mostly give us what we want.

01:00:46.500 –> 01:00:47.460
Angela Bergmann: As an SEO.

01:00:47.670 –> 01:00:57.480
Jeff Louella: I sometimes hate that, because I don’t want the, you know, this knowledge graph to come up above my client site, but as a consumer, like great answer my question banks.

01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Don’t need to go to the website so

01:01:00.030 –> 01:01:08.490
Jeff Louella: I see both sides of it and I had to think about it as a consumer side of things and consumers like we need like I’m typing into Google and he ever results.

01:01:09.150 –> 01:01:22.830
Jeff Louella: As an SEO. I hate that, like, okay, my 10 links are now push down because I have images and paid search and things in the paid side to me as a consumer who wouldn’t know it could be deceptive, to an extent.

01:01:24.270 –> 01:01:29.160
Jeff Louella: I mean, they may name it ads. But if I don’t know anything about search like I’m clicking one of those ads. Right, so it’s

01:01:30.360 –> 01:01:35.940
Jeff Louella: And hopefully Google’s placing the right ads, where they need to be collect or or someone’s paying for ads for no reason.

01:01:37.950 –> 01:01:40.320
Jeff Louella: But yeah, there’s a ton in there, I think.

01:01:41.490 –> 01:01:44.370
Jeff Louella: One of the things is like they went through and saying that

01:01:45.630 –> 01:01:47.850
Jeff Louella: They had a black list of

01:01:48.720 –> 01:01:50.310
Jeff Louella: Domain companies that they don’t

01:01:50.340 –> 01:01:51.030
Angela Bergmann: Rank well

01:01:51.660 –> 01:01:54.000
Jeff Louella: And maybe like

01:01:54.570 –> 01:01:56.100
Jeff Louella: I don’t think there’s like a whiteboard with like

01:01:56.100 –> 01:01:59.970
Jeff Louella: All, you know, or if you ever watch the TV show blacklist.

01:02:01.380 –> 01:02:02.670
Jeff Louella: Yeah, or anything like that.

01:02:02.670 –> 01:02:03.900
Angela Bergmann: But it’s like hey

01:02:04.170 –> 01:02:06.660
Jeff Louella: There’s spammers out there and of course

01:02:06.810 –> 01:02:07.230
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:02:07.590 –> 01:02:09.090
Jeff Louella: We don’t want them showing up.

01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:10.260
Jeff Louella: Because we weren’t following reason.

01:02:10.680 –> 01:02:14.520
Angela Bergmann: Now it does not exist for a reason.

01:02:16.590 –> 01:02:20.820
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve got all those files were self reporting.

01:02:22.500 –> 01:02:23.250
Angela Bergmann: So, I mean, I think.

01:02:23.280 –> 01:02:25.620
Jeff Louella: As SEOs we get this and we see it as bad and I

01:02:25.710 –> 01:02:27.720
Angela Bergmann: Understand the backlash lash out there.

01:02:28.440 –> 01:02:29.970
Jeff Louella: On there, but it’s one of those where

01:02:31.350 –> 01:02:39.210
Jeff Louella: Maybe this is where like we were talking about earlier that like I feel like the beginner stuff that I like to look like everyone knows that.

01:02:40.110 –> 01:02:51.360
Jeff Louella: But there’s, you know, and it comes to things like that, especially in the Wall Street Journal, maybe point 1% knows, like the truth there and that’s where it comes damaging and I think we also tried to

01:02:51.390 –> 01:02:53.280
Angela Bergmann: defend ourselves as SEOs

01:02:53.460 –> 01:02:56.730
Jeff Louella: Plenty of times we. There’s a lot of bad

01:02:56.910 –> 01:02:57.600
Angela Bergmann: News out there.

01:02:57.660 –> 01:02:58.380
Right, so

01:03:00.270 –> 01:03:02.130
Jeff Louella: We don’t want to be misquoted like a good ones don’t.

01:03:02.160 –> 01:03:04.320
Jeff Louella: Be misquoted or see like we’re playing

01:03:04.560 –> 01:03:07.290
Angela Bergmann: Like magic that’s going on. So, I get that.

01:03:10.590 –> 01:03:14.190
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s where I think some of the frustration for that article comes from is that it’s

01:03:15.390 –> 01:03:17.220
Angela Bergmann: A more highly regarded new sort of

01:03:19.110 –> 01:03:24.870
Angela Bergmann: Niche recording misreporting about our industry when we already. We already have enough crap that we have to

01:03:28.290 –> 01:03:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Add them in. Now, to think

01:03:31.620 –> 01:03:33.210
Angela Bergmann: That is a good point and

01:03:34.260 –> 01:03:43.890
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, you brought up a good point. Like, there are a lot of bad SEO is out there. And one of the thoughts that was occurring in my brain was, well, if I’m a bad SEO like

01:03:44.460 –> 01:03:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Do I know that I’m a bad SEO and probably the answer is, not always. And I’m not saying any of those folks are bad SEOs but what occurred to me. Next is if I were a good SEO.

01:03:56.730 –> 01:04:04.380
Jacob Stoops: And this is some sort of a smear against Google or a sneer against SEO in general.

01:04:05.040 –> 01:04:18.390
Jacob Stoops: There might be the perception that I’m a bad SEO and I wouldn’t want that perception associated with me if, indeed, I was a good SEO. So yeah, I could see where the folks might get mad about that. It is a good question. I never

01:04:18.390 –> 01:04:22.320
Jeff Louella: Thought about was advantage to that I know if I was an SEO.

01:04:23.730 –> 01:04:35.040
Jeff Louella: Like the link builders realize that there. I guess spammers and other spammers right so it’s, yeah. But there’s, I mean there. I know there’s white hat Red Hat and things like that so

01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:38.220
Angela Bergmann: It’s interesting because I just don’t

01:04:39.060 –> 01:04:54.870
Jeff Louella: I do find that that that look right with companies that like, oh, SEO is black magic or SEO is is bad and actually fighting internal politics at companies where I’m trying to tell a developer, how to code a site a certain way.

01:04:55.200 –> 01:04:56.040
Jeff Louella: Am I giving you the code.

01:04:56.400 –> 01:04:57.630
Angela Bergmann: We need these results at the

01:04:57.630 –> 01:04:58.500
Jeff Louella: End and

01:04:58.530 –> 01:05:00.150
Jeff Louella: They think of me as like

01:05:01.500 –> 01:05:02.220
Angela Bergmann: The enemy.

01:05:02.490 –> 01:05:04.080
Jeff Louella: The enemy and something so

01:05:04.890 –> 01:05:08.220
Jeff Louella: Having more fuel to their fire is not what I’m looking for.

01:05:08.700 –> 01:05:09.300
Angela Bergmann: And it. Yeah.

01:05:09.360 –> 01:05:10.440
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I’m not gonna say like

01:05:11.010 –> 01:05:17.760
Jeff Louella: Hey trust everything in SEO says also because I think that’s why there could be some misquotes in that article, depending on the interview.

01:05:18.660 –> 01:05:27.090
Jeff Louella: Like there are plenty of SEO is out there who believe Google’s manipulating your search results. And that’s why they can’t get the number one. That’s what they’re telling their clients like you’ll never be

01:05:27.630 –> 01:05:29.430
Jeff Louella: Target because their target.

01:05:29.850 –> 01:05:37.890
Jeff Louella: And there might be some truth to that. But to say that Google reserve this spot for target is not. Yeah, it’s not right. It’s

01:05:38.550 –> 01:05:43.290
Jeff Louella: Become become Amazon like Amazon started off as a guy in the back of his truck like delivering books.

01:05:43.830 –> 01:05:52.860
Jeff Louella: And now he’s Amazon right and not everyone can do that of course it’s a it’s an amazing story, but the same time you know it’s it’s really hard for small business.

01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:05.790
Jeff Louella: Right now to rank for those top end terms. You got to find a better way. You know, whether it’s social or just giving customers different, you know, becoming that authority becoming that like expertise.

01:06:06.750 –> 01:06:15.480
Jeff Louella: It’s it’s a lot of work and it’s not something you can pay $500 a month to do, especially when you’re fighting against like someone like Target and Amazon in

01:06:15.870 –> 01:06:16.500
Angela Bergmann: Our space.

01:06:17.610 –> 01:06:27.240
Angela Bergmann: And the point that I always make people to as those top terms are going to be your conversion point. Anyways, so just ignore them like they’re not going to actually turn into dollars for you. You don’t want that traffic.

01:06:29.070 –> 01:06:30.240
Jacob Stoops: But people have vanity.

01:06:31.050 –> 01:06:33.450
Angela Bergmann: And people have egos.

01:06:34.080 –> 01:06:35.490
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the problem.

01:06:35.670 –> 01:06:39.150
Angela Bergmann: They want those terms. Yeah, and have them so

01:06:40.410 –> 01:06:49.470
Jacob Stoops: Anyways. So Jeff, I know that there’s some other news, we’re running short on short on time. So I want to dive into structured data.

01:06:51.660 –> 01:06:54.120
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. I know.

01:06:54.540 –> 01:06:55.200
You were saying

01:06:56.340 –> 01:06:57.150
That you do

01:06:58.530 –> 01:07:07.770
Jacob Stoops: You work all the time in structured data. So I guess what are, what are your thoughts. What do you like about it. What do you not like about it. What would you recommend to people.

01:07:09.360 –> 01:07:24.540
Angela Bergmann: So I’ll start with the thing that I don’t like about it on. I don’t like how little visibility, there is into the reporting for it because of how critical it’s become so their search console. I can see some rich snippet information.

01:07:26.940 –> 01:07:27.960
Angela Bergmann: Kind of what again.

01:07:29.190 –> 01:07:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Like at least there’s that visibility, so I can show the eyeball, um,

01:07:36.060 –> 01:07:49.440
Angela Bergmann: So I’ve started, including that in my reporting for clients but but more robust reporting specific to snippet placement would be amazing, because I do at the end of the day, understand that it’s

01:07:51.210 –> 01:07:57.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s tough to the Google can make money, but it also is user experience, the less the user has to click the happier. They are

01:07:59.250 –> 01:08:06.990
Angela Bergmann: And so Google is going to make their money. So I totally 100% yet it from their side, but I really want

01:08:08.970 –> 01:08:26.130
Angela Bergmann: To be able to show my clients, where they’re showing up like here’s all the backend work that I’ve done. Here’s all the coding that we’ve done implemented and it’s working. Here’s the effect that it’s having not just looked at all eyeballs that for you. Yeah.

01:08:28.920 –> 01:08:29.760
Angela Bergmann: You like it.

01:08:31.680 –> 01:08:41.880
Jacob Stoops: The thing that I find interesting in like Jeff, I would say, Jeff, you’re probably a little bit more technical than, than I am, although I’m pretty I’m pretty technical is

01:08:42.900 –> 01:08:51.870
Jacob Stoops: Everybody knows, quote unquote, I’m gonna say quote unquote knows that structured data is supposedly a good thing, right.

01:08:53.040 –> 01:09:03.390
Jacob Stoops: And there’s all kinds of structured data out there and I’m glad that we’re now calling it structured data because that’s the larger umbrella. A lot of people just call it and I keep going well.

01:09:03.390 –> 01:09:04.680
Angela Bergmann: That’s, that’s one type

01:09:05.160 –> 01:09:05.580
Jacob Stoops: But like

01:09:05.610 –> 01:09:17.850
Jacob Stoops: There are a bunch of other not a bunch. But there are other types of structured data that Google can use. So people a lot of times get structured data and confused confused and

01:09:18.210 –> 01:09:18.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:09:19.050 –> 01:09:19.530
I find it.

01:09:20.580 –> 01:09:39.300
Jacob Stoops: I find that part. Interesting. But the thing, the thing about structured data in general is is when we’re doing a technical audit or when we’re working on a sites technical foundation that is one of our leading recommendations in terms of things that we often see lacking that need

01:09:39.480 –> 01:09:41.250
Angela Bergmann: Implemented but the thought.

01:09:41.280 –> 01:09:53.430
Jacob Stoops: Always occurs to me is, should it be, should it be one of our leading recommendations. And the reason why is there are so many types of structured data out there.

01:09:54.120 –> 01:10:07.050
Jacob Stoops: What the things that actually populate rich snippets in search results versus the amount of structured data that’s available that you could mark your site up with. It’s like

01:10:07.110 –> 01:10:08.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, and percent

01:10:08.850 –> 01:10:11.820
Jacob Stoops: Or 20% or I don’t even know what the percentage is but like

01:10:12.690 –> 01:10:14.670
Jacob Stoops: You could mark mark the

01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:28.440
Jacob Stoops: Crap out of your site with all kinds of structured data and there’s no proof. There’s no proof that it’s actually doing anything beneficial for you until you get some sort of a rich snippet.

01:10:28.890 –> 01:10:39.180
Jacob Stoops: And what you’re saying and it’s in. It’s very true is even when you get that the reporting is so limited in terms in terms of is it doing anything valuable.

01:10:39.540 –> 01:10:56.730
Jacob Stoops: For you that it always makes me scratch my head when I hear folks go yeah structured data is is good and we want to feed Google a bunch of information and we need to get that implemented right away because it’s critical to technical site health

01:10:57.330 –> 01:10:58.650
Jacob Stoops: And the thing I always like

01:10:59.130 –> 01:11:00.180
Jacob Stoops: Take a step back and

01:11:00.180 –> 01:11:05.280
Jacob Stoops: Think is okay. I agree. But like, when we’re talking to the client like

01:11:05.730 –> 01:11:19.650
Jacob Stoops: A lot of times they need proof and they need evidence and they need a reason to prioritize something in their development queue or to display something in their development huge prioritize your recommendations. And the thing I

01:11:19.650 –> 01:11:19.980
Angela Bergmann: Always

01:11:20.040 –> 01:11:22.080
Jacob Stoops: Worry about is we have such a limited

01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:35.850
Jacob Stoops: window to get things implemented and to make an impact before our contract runs out on the agency side and I always worry that we’re blindly following quote unquote best practices because Google

01:11:36.450 –> 01:11:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Pushes it or because we think it’s a best practice without ever testing it on the other end without testing say hey I implemented blog post schema. Okay, well, that’s great. Did it do anything for you.

01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.120
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know. That’s usually the answer. I don’t know.

01:11:55.200 –> 01:12:11.460
Jacob Stoops: But it’s the best practice. So I guess I should implement it and the thing about it is that that honestly that drives me crazy. And what I wish is one that they were better recording and to I wish that more SEOs with think along the

01:12:12.570 –> 01:12:18.300
Jacob Stoops: Would use the Frank. The, the line of thinking of test it and measure

01:12:18.690 –> 01:12:19.800
Angela Bergmann: Once you implement it.

01:12:20.190 –> 01:12:21.210
Angela Bergmann: You what then happens

01:12:21.210 –> 01:12:38.610
Jacob Stoops: After that, from a result standpoint and document it so that when you go to another client and you recommend that particular type of structured data scheme or whatever you can say, hey, I did this on this client. And it worked out really well. And here’s why. And

01:12:39.180 –> 01:12:40.440
Jacob Stoops: Times, like, especially with

01:12:40.440 –> 01:12:49.020
Jacob Stoops: Things that don’t trigger rich snippets, it’s going to be correlation and not necessarily causation, because there’s not really a lot of reporting on it.

01:12:50.820 –> 01:12:51.990
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, that’s all I can.

01:12:51.990 –> 01:12:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Do and say, oh, well, we saw this many more eyeballs.

01:12:57.330 –> 01:13:07.890
Angela Bergmann: That then we do an audit and then we switch over to analytics and we look at, like, they’re your of your organic and then see if their conversion rate is increased and let’s talk about your correlating that if it did increase

01:13:08.460 –> 01:13:15.060
Angela Bergmann: It’s probably due to the snippet capture. There’s that connection, isn’t there yet. Yeah. And like

01:13:15.630 –> 01:13:23.460
Jacob Stoops: Don’t get me wrong, I love working unstructured data like nothing makes me happier than to sit for an hour and to develop some like

01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Clean beautiful JSON structured data market to pass over to the client, say, hey, just throw this into your page. And it’s that part for me because I come from, like, a technical background like

01:13:36.240 –> 01:13:44.550
Jacob Stoops: I enjoy doing that and I enjoy putting those recommendations together for clients and I enjoy even more when they implement them and they implement them correctly.

01:13:44.880 –> 01:13:45.990
Jacob Stoops: When I can go. Yes.

01:13:46.440 –> 01:13:47.670
Jacob Stoops: data testing tool and

01:13:47.670 –> 01:13:50.460
Jacob Stoops: See no validation like that.

01:13:50.820 –> 01:13:51.630
Jacob Stoops: That stuff like

01:13:52.080 –> 01:13:59.310
Jacob Stoops: That makes my heart happy but like the cynic in me and I think every good SEO is also part cynic.

01:14:00.030 –> 01:14:01.020
Angela Bergmann: Automatically

01:14:01.080 –> 01:14:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Also thinks like, Okay, I’ve got a

01:14:02.730 –> 01:14:10.650
Jacob Stoops: I’ve got a finite amount of time with this client, potentially, and I’ve got a finite amount of things that they can implement and I always think like

01:14:10.710 –> 01:14:11.070
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:14:12.000 –> 01:14:13.080
Jacob Stoops: Is this the thing that’s going to

01:14:13.080 –> 01:14:24.300
Jacob Stoops: move the needle or is this the thing we’re just trying to get in place, because it’s a best practice and like I think we should all think about the things that move the needle and move those up in the queue before the things that

01:14:24.840 –> 01:14:25.320
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, our

01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:27.450
Angela Bergmann: Housekeeping best practice items.

01:14:29.040 –> 01:14:43.080
Angela Bergmann: And it depends on the vertical to so like if you’re, if you have a client that’s in a vertical where eyeballs are really important. So I one of the one of the clients that I run very high volume schema for is a realtor

01:14:44.610 –> 01:14:51.960
Angela Bergmann: They care about eyeballs and they they’re competing against Zillow and Trulia and all of these sites. So realistically

01:14:52.290 –> 01:15:00.480
Angela Bergmann: They’re generating content they’re doing all the other stuff that we tend to do for clients. So they’re literally a technical client for us. I

01:15:00.870 –> 01:15:07.890
Angela Bergmann: Hold their developer accountable. The page speed improvements and then I implement schema on their site. And that’s all I do for them.

01:15:08.580 –> 01:15:20.910
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve seen huge organic growth year over year because of that, but they’re one of those situations where I get to have fun and do that because they’re just looking for visibility, they’re not looking for conversions.

01:15:21.750 –> 01:15:32.430
Angela Bergmann: How do I have plants were schema might be fantastic, but they don’t even have content so content got to come first. Oh, let me ask you this.

01:15:32.730 –> 01:15:34.860
Angela Bergmann: How did you get into a situation where

01:15:35.130 –> 01:15:41.640
Jacob Stoops: The client trust you enough to implement schema, because usually like developers are like, keep your damn hands off.

01:15:43.950 –> 01:15:56.370
Angela Bergmann: Um, basically, the way I so we did an audit of their site. We have a custom audit. That’s about 120 pages looks about 350 different points that we go over

01:15:57.630 –> 01:16:06.390
Angela Bergmann: Everything and then really for them. I was like, you know, you as a realtor you have great content, your, your descriptions for your homes are amazing.

01:16:07.410 –> 01:16:18.810
Angela Bergmann: your site’s going to be a little slow, but it’s a little slower than I think it should be especially when comparing it to your competitors and I pitched them. I said, here’s the thing. I was like, you’re not going to be Zillow

01:16:20.340 –> 01:16:34.500
Angela Bergmann: You’re just not but you can beat the other local realtors because somebody’s going to find a home on Zillow and then they know that they’re going to have to go to somebody local so you can be the second result after those big company.

01:16:35.850 –> 01:16:50.370
Angela Bergmann: And I taught them because they had no. The reason they had reached out as they’d notice that one of their competitive agencies was showing up before them for the same homes and I determined that it was because their title and none of the structure was pretty terrible.

01:16:51.600 –> 01:17:08.430
Angela Bergmann: Got their developers to change it saw within like a couple of months saw drastic change where they were starting to beat them out. And I was like, here’s the next step. The next step is going to be applying schema because they don’t have it Zillow does

01:17:09.480 –> 01:17:14.550
Angela Bergmann: That that’s your that’s your sweet spot. And it’s approved to work.

01:17:16.560 –> 01:17:27.690
Angela Bergmann: So it was fun. We had a really good relationship with this client already on our paid search side so that helps as well and just having a good real good trusting relationship with this client.

01:17:28.200 –> 01:17:39.630
Angela Bergmann: And they kind of let me roll those dice and I was like, I think this is going to pay off. So I told them to. I said, You know, I can’t make any guarantees on this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

01:17:41.280 –> 01:17:44.850
Angela Bergmann: And a year later, we we’ve seen, we’ve seen it pan out

01:17:46.350 –> 01:17:57.990
Angela Bergmann: But there is that fear you know as an SEO as it goes like, you’re like, No, no, this really should be the thing. It should should work. It should work. Yeah, please God, let it warm.

01:18:00.420 –> 01:18:03.390
Angela Bergmann: Google does they have some examples like

01:18:03.540 –> 01:18:04.710
Jeff Louella: Google does give some good advice.

01:18:04.890 –> 01:18:06.120
Jeff Louella: On like

01:18:06.720 –> 01:18:17.820
Jeff Louella: How to schema. Like, like if you do it right. Like it doesn’t guarantee, but you can get a nice you know how to section on your mobile phone or FAQ schema. But then there are those ones out there.

01:18:17.880 –> 01:18:18.120
Angela Bergmann: Like

01:18:18.900 –> 01:18:23.010
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, I just kind of looked up real quick there like one for comic books.

01:18:23.040 –> 01:18:24.810
Jeff Louella: I mean, I guess if you have a comic book site.

01:18:24.810 –> 01:18:29.430
Jeff Louella: Or stuff, but it’s like the product. Is it, like, Is Google going to do anything. Yeah.

01:18:29.460 –> 01:18:30.540
Jeff Louella: On that one or

01:18:31.050 –> 01:18:39.090
Jeff Louella: Are they gonna do anything for if you are. I don’t know, looking here like movies make sense. Like there’s certain ones I know events.

01:18:39.420 –> 01:18:42.630
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, certain ones that I know that we need to to be

01:18:43.770 –> 01:18:59.400
Jeff Louella: You know ingested into Google properly and kind of displayed in their stuff that there’s ones that we need. But then there are a whole bunch out there like I know bread crumbs, give, give me good bread crumbs. I know that you know there’s tools out there.

01:18:59.430 –> 01:18:59.790
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:18:59.940 –> 01:19:00.750
Jeff Louella: A whole bunch that are

01:19:01.230 –> 01:19:13.020
Jeff Louella: No clue on local like I usually don’t recommend it really easy depending again on vertical insight, like there’s a there’s a handful that I recommend and then either are so many more.

01:19:13.740 –> 01:19:25.320
Jeff Louella: And is it like eventually Google is going to get around to these and they’re eventually going to be put in there. Are we ahead of the game are we wasting our time like and Jake is you’re saying, You’re right, like there are up.

01:19:25.500 –> 01:19:26.010
Jeff Louella: Even if

01:19:26.070 –> 01:19:29.490
Jeff Louella: We have a finite amount of time to know results.

01:19:30.090 –> 01:19:31.380
Jeff Louella: And thinking for like

01:19:31.800 –> 01:19:33.930
Jeff Louella: Four years down the road is not one of them right now.

01:19:34.950 –> 01:19:35.250
Jeff Louella: And

01:19:35.880 –> 01:19:36.930
Angela Bergmann: I’m hoping that

01:19:37.320 –> 01:19:45.870
Jeff Louella: Structured data helps other things too, right, like so right now we have things like open graph that like when you put it on your site and some post on to

01:19:46.230 –> 01:19:57.270
Jeff Louella: Your Pinterest or Facebook, it pulls that information in. From there, you know, Twitter has their Twitter cards and stuff but like I think structured data can feed other things like your calendar, because you have an event.

01:19:57.690 –> 01:19:59.280
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, your calendar should integrate with

01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.180
Jeff Louella: Schema to pull those events into your calendar and things like that. Yep scheme is

01:20:03.210 –> 01:20:04.350
Angela Bergmann: Great that way, but

01:20:04.380 –> 01:20:08.850
Jeff Louella: I don’t see like Microsoft Outlook using them yet.

01:20:08.880 –> 01:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: Right, so it’s we do it as SEOs

01:20:10.830 –> 01:20:11.580
Angela Bergmann: For SEO.

01:20:12.060 –> 01:20:26.190
Jeff Louella: And I feel like there’s such a big potential for every other type of app out there that needs to be data. I think on my website, which is sad. These days, I think of it as like a feed that I’m feeding Google, um, you know, if you think

01:20:26.220 –> 01:20:26.910
Jeff Louella: About it as like

01:20:27.090 –> 01:20:28.110
Jeff Louella: Here’s my XML feed.

01:20:28.110 –> 01:20:32.550
Jeff Louella: Here’s my content for years, all these different fields. And then let’s get it to make it pretty for customers.

01:20:33.540 –> 01:20:49.110
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of how I think and things, but not everybody does, of course, but I would love for you know like music playlist schema to be able to be ingested by my iTunes app, but it’s not there right now. Like it’s it’s really just

01:20:49.110 –> 01:20:50.100
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, just

01:20:52.230 –> 01:21:05.340
Angela Bergmann: Like the only ones that I really focus on is like Product Listing blog FAQ. Um, we’re doing a lot of with the medical related schema.

01:21:06.570 –> 01:21:09.420
Angela Bergmann: Just because that’s huge in search, obviously.

01:21:10.830 –> 01:21:11.490
Angela Bergmann: And then

01:21:14.070 –> 01:21:24.660
Angela Bergmann: Organizational schema like by default we essentially load organizational schema for every client. And that’s really and then it’s like, based on the client kind of where we go from there. So,

01:21:24.870 –> 01:21:30.360
Angela Bergmann: I always tell clients because they’ll ask about that. How do I get position zero. I’m like, well, you have to have good content first

01:21:33.300 –> 01:21:34.200
Jacob Stoops: Ever had

01:21:34.650 –> 01:21:53.970
Jacob Stoops: Any instances where you recommended a particular I’m going to say product schema, for example, and a client was apprehensive about some of the features of their product or offering showing up in search results for a consumer to see

01:21:59.430 –> 01:22:00.930
That I haven’t yet.

01:22:02.580 –> 01:22:03.120
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

01:22:03.210 –> 01:22:05.910
Jacob Stoops: I have a, I have a story where I

01:22:07.650 –> 01:22:21.600
Jacob Stoops: had a client who is I guess what I would call up they make a premium product. So it’s like the within what they do. It’s like the Cadillac, not the Honda version.

01:22:21.630 –> 01:22:23.460
Angela Bergmann: Of a product and

01:22:23.640 –> 01:22:33.810
Jacob Stoops: They make a really great product, but we were working to implement product schema. And one of the things that’s a huge component of that is, price, price and availability and

01:22:36.780 –> 01:22:39.480
Angela Bergmann: They did not want to expose price in

01:22:41.220 –> 01:22:42.300
Jacob Stoops: Right, yeah.

01:22:42.690 –> 01:22:43.890
Angela Bergmann: Their price is

01:22:43.920 –> 01:22:53.490
Jacob Stoops: A little bit higher. And I thought that that was an interesting position to take, given that a consumer is going to figure it out once they click

01:22:54.180 –> 01:22:55.230
Angela Bergmann: And get to the site.

01:22:55.260 –> 01:23:04.320
Jacob Stoops: But when I think about it from their perspective. Well, the consumer sees that price they may never click on it in the first place.

01:23:04.380 –> 01:23:11.220
Angela Bergmann: And they’re not going to understand the context is they’re not going to understand the context, they’re just going to see this much more expensive thing.

01:23:11.220 –> 01:23:12.720
Angela Bergmann: Especially if other sites.

01:23:12.930 –> 01:23:15.930
Jacob Stoops: In the competitive set are using that schema and

01:23:15.930 –> 01:23:22.830
Angela Bergmann: showing their price. Oh, although I think the argument could be made for a client like that that

01:23:24.570 –> 01:23:26.430
Angela Bergmann: I’m more scared when there’s no price.

01:23:27.600 –> 01:23:28.080
Angela Bergmann: Right.

01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:32.070
Jacob Stoops: What right, and like, okay, if I’m a consumer and

01:23:32.100 –> 01:23:33.540
Jacob Stoops: I look at that and I’m

01:23:33.960 –> 01:23:35.520
Jacob Stoops: Looking for that particular

01:23:35.520 –> 01:23:41.100
Jacob Stoops: PRODUCT, AND I’M AFRAID OF THE PRICE my really the right type of consumer for you. Anyways, is

01:23:41.160 –> 01:23:41.970
Angela Bergmann: One. Yeah.

01:23:42.600 –> 01:23:43.530
Jacob Stoops: And I’ve seen

01:23:43.830 –> 01:23:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Not what this schema, necessarily, but with I’ve seen with review schema, the one of the few times I’ve been able, and this was in the past when there just wasn’t a lot of data.

01:23:57.090 –> 01:24:01.710
Jacob Stoops: YOU WOULD THERE WASN’T THE NICE Google Search Console data that there is now where

01:24:02.940 –> 01:24:10.530
Jacob Stoops: We had star ratings and there was a time when because they worked with a specific vendor bizarre voice.

01:24:11.790 –> 01:24:12.330
Jacob Stoops: Who I hate

01:24:13.530 –> 01:24:14.940
Jacob Stoops: They worked with that vendor.

01:24:14.940 –> 01:24:16.140
Jacob Stoops: And their

01:24:16.170 –> 01:24:17.250
Jacob Stoops: star ratings.

01:24:17.970 –> 01:24:21.720
Jacob Stoops: Magically dropped off because their schema was wrong and then

01:24:22.470 –> 01:24:35.340
Jacob Stoops: Once we worked with bizarre voice to get that fixed the star ratings came back and we because we had that nice apples to apples comparison were able to get a very clean.

01:24:35.820 –> 01:24:50.070
Jacob Stoops: Before, and after. And were able to get a very clean incremental click through rate gain based on just the presence of star ratings in in search results, and it was substantial and for that brand in

01:24:50.070 –> 01:24:50.820
Angela Bergmann: Particular

01:24:51.210 –> 01:24:52.530
Jacob Stoops: There are massive worldwide.

01:24:52.530 –> 01:25:10.830
Jacob Stoops: Brand. So an increasing click through rate of 1% for them met hundreds of thousands of more visitors just by having star ratings and that’s the argument that I always try to use with with clients in terms of things that are going to trigger rich snippets in search results is like hey

01:25:12.210 –> 01:25:19.830
Jacob Stoops: It’s highly likely that more people are going to click on your, your page as a result of this, this feature, but

01:25:19.920 –> 01:25:20.250
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:25:20.640 –> 01:25:22.020
Jacob Stoops: On the business side they’re, you know,

01:25:22.020 –> 01:25:31.110
Jacob Stoops: They’re definitely thinking of their business and they’re trying to they’re there, they were taking the opposite stance that if people see our price, which is a Cadillac price.

01:25:32.370 –> 01:25:39.750
Jacob Stoops: Maybe there’ll be scared away. So that was an interesting, interesting little tidbit that I’ve that I’ve been through before it was

01:25:40.770 –> 01:25:43.110
Jacob Stoops: Interesting. I’ll just say, I’ll leave it at that.

01:25:47.640 –> 01:25:49.590
Jeff Louella: DOESN’T SURPRISE either and

01:25:49.710 –> 01:25:51.210
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s, it’s

01:25:51.840 –> 01:25:59.760
Jeff Louella: Not because they don’t want to. It’s because they also have half their businesses are franchise and the franchisees

01:26:00.450 –> 01:26:01.710
Angela Bergmann: Price. Ooh.

01:26:02.340 –> 01:26:05.220
Jeff Louella: And even though it’s mostly the same there are

01:26:05.400 –> 01:26:06.780
Jeff Louella: Outliers, where if

01:26:06.900 –> 01:26:25.440
Jeff Louella: That same business has a store in Alaska. It takes the they sell it for more expensive because you have to ship to Alaska to have it in their store. And so they charge maybe $1 more and they don’t you know when people going in the store saying like your website says this price.

01:26:26.610 –> 01:26:33.090
Jeff Louella: For this price. So the only way to get prices is when you get to the website is to select your local store and then you get that local stores pricing.

01:26:34.380 –> 01:26:39.720
Jeff Louella: But Google does not have a local store and or or if they did, it would always be

01:26:39.990 –> 01:26:54.930
Jeff Louella: The pricing and that’s one of those where they can’t do it. And I feel sometimes I I’m fighting a battle with, you know, one hand tied behind my back because matter all the arguments I have like they’re like, we have to look out for our franchisees

01:26:55.980 –> 01:27:03.450
Jeff Louella: So it’s, it’s an interesting battle there. So we try to do other things, of course, but like we just give the highest price, then, and then they were saying they don’t want to do that either.

01:27:04.200 –> 01:27:07.470
Angela Bergmann: Well, people are surprised when it’s lower on the website.

01:27:07.830 –> 01:27:09.150
Jeff Louella: When it’s cheaper.

01:27:10.620 –> 01:27:11.040
Angela Bergmann: But they

01:27:11.070 –> 01:27:14.940
Jeff Louella: They have that fear, then no one would come to the site, then if they knew it was more money than

01:27:15.390 –> 01:27:16.260
Jacob Stoops: What I’m

01:27:17.460 –> 01:27:20.070
Jacob Stoops: What do you guys think is the future of structured data.

01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:40.440
Angela Bergmann: I think rejected point out, like the tada further time. Yeah. So having it not just be Information Center. Google is being able to leverage that in other ways at a calendar invite

01:27:40.950 –> 01:27:56.370
Angela Bergmann: You know load something add something to an app like I think further leveraging of it because it’s structured data format it in a way that makes it easy to process into things. So how can we use that better.

01:27:57.900 –> 01:27:58.110
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:27:58.260 –> 01:27:59.340
Jeff Louella: I agree. That’s where I

01:27:59.340 –> 01:28:01.170
Jeff Louella: Think, and I see

01:28:01.230 –> 01:28:06.960
Jeff Louella: You know, I know, wants to there’s a million like a million, but they keep growing the

01:28:07.350 –> 01:28:08.340
Jeff Louella: Other the other does it

01:28:08.700 –> 01:28:10.080
Jeff Louella: Because everything right, it’s

01:28:10.200 –> 01:28:15.660
Jeff Louella: Gonna look at a coffee Cal Poly. We might have coffee cup schema. One day when there’s this different sub levels because you can

01:28:15.660 –> 01:28:16.560
Jeff Louella: Keep adding like

01:28:16.920 –> 01:28:19.590
Jeff Louella: You start off with a thing. And then we break that down and we break that

01:28:19.590 –> 01:28:20.190
Jeff Louella: Down and

01:28:20.220 –> 01:28:20.550
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:28:21.480 –> 01:28:22.920
Jeff Louella: To the point where we can’t

01:28:23.400 –> 01:28:29.160
Jeff Louella: Can we all we can meet over structured data, probably, but at the same time.

01:28:29.250 –> 01:28:30.570
Angela Bergmann: It’s structure, I think.

01:28:31.140 –> 01:28:44.250
Jeff Louella: The goal of structured data is off of the web also so or not. So often the web, but off of like your web page and into apps and things like that were made, just like sharing easy. I kind of think of it as like

01:28:44.970 –> 01:28:53.460
Jeff Louella: Elon Musk open sourced the electrical system for Tesla because he knows that if there’s 17 different plugins to plug in

01:28:54.120 –> 01:29:07.890
Jeff Louella: That know like if I had a Ford electric car, you had a Chevy and then someone wasn’t a Tesla, we could interchange our electrical plugs, there would be no electric cars will not take off because everyone is the same gas tank.

01:29:07.920 –> 01:29:09.090
Right, so there are

01:29:10.410 –> 01:29:16.740
Jeff Louella: You know the structure to that that and reason why there’s a certain sizes and components to it so

01:29:17.040 –> 01:29:22.710
Jeff Louella: If I have an app, it’d be awesome to be able to, like, I know my app can interface with your app, because we use similar structures in our data.

01:29:23.010 –> 01:29:33.720
Jeff Louella: I can send you my map results. I can switch between being and someone else because and Google Maps, because they use the same structure in a structured data, I think.

01:29:34.140 –> 01:29:36.450
Angela Bergmann: That helps machine, talk to the machine.

01:29:36.960 –> 01:29:41.190
Jeff Louella: And at the end of the day, it’s you know, it’s just trying to figure it out and makes everything more

01:29:41.760 –> 01:29:45.420
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the way I hope it goes, because I

01:29:45.420 –> 01:29:55.110
Jeff Louella: Really feel as kind of a nerd who like to develop and he likes to interface with other systems. I don’t want to have to have an Excel document in between and

01:29:55.140 –> 01:29:56.640
Jeff Louella: Transform all my data.

01:29:56.970 –> 01:29:58.290
Jeff Louella: You know, and to then

01:29:58.350 –> 01:30:14.280
Jeff Louella: Push it off to somewhere else, which I do a lot of my reporting now. But, you know, I’d love to be able to have, like, you know what is in Google Analytics, right, like a session in Adobe analytics is not what especially means in Google Analytics or a user. And there’s all these different

01:30:14.280 –> 01:30:14.760
Angela Bergmann: Terms.

01:30:15.030 –> 01:30:22.260
Jeff Louella: Of having like a structure between them all would actually be awesome, because then we can compare apples to apples and not apples to bananas, let’s let’s

01:30:23.760 –> 01:30:26.250
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela, where can people find you.

01:30:29.370 –> 01:30:29.970
Angela Bergmann: Twitter.

01:30:31.920 –> 01:30:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Twitter. I’m at Red kitten.

01:30:34.680 –> 01:30:37.530
Angela Bergmann: That’s probably the best place to find me.

01:30:38.070 –> 01:30:40.350
Angela Bergmann: That is a great handle. Where does that handle come

01:30:40.350 –> 01:30:40.680

01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:51.600
Angela Bergmann: Um, that was actually my original like one of my original domain was red kittens on and Yun was where I was blogging and it just kind of stuck.

01:30:53.430 –> 01:30:59.010
Angela Bergmann: I even use it like in World of Warcraft. So that’s my my card plate is red pitney

01:31:01.320 –> 01:31:03.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, mine’s just Jacob I guess I need to

01:31:03.750 –> 01:31:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Be or Jacob stoops just as Jacob stoops I guess I just in years. Jeff is just at Jeff, Luella I guess we need to get more creative.

01:31:11.340 –> 01:31:17.880
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a time in my life where I had like fun handles, and then I became like a ship poster.

01:31:19.470 –> 01:31:27.780
Jeff Louella: Looks like you know if I use my real name. It really makes me think about that. I’m going to post because when I didn’t have my real name on there like starting flame wars.

01:31:28.110 –> 01:31:28.590

01:31:30.450 –> 01:31:32.190
Jeff Louella: Like way happier using my real name.

01:31:32.250 –> 01:31:35.280
Jacob Stoops: Next episode is just all about Jeff’s burner accounts.

01:31:37.920 –> 01:31:44.880
Angela Bergmann: My Twitter does have my real name on it though. So I don’t know, getting away. Yeah, there is no anyways.

01:31:44.970 –> 01:31:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Um, thank you so much for for coming on. We really. We really appreciate it and go browns.

01:31:53.430 –> 01:31:54.540
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, go, go.

01:31:55.680 –> 01:31:56.460
Angela Bergmann: Bye everybody.

#30: Alicia “AK” Anderson

Episode Summary

Today we talk with Alicia “AK” Anderson, former Associate Director of SEO at WebMD, former head of SEO at Hipcamp, and currently a freelance SEO.

We discuss:

  • Her path to SEO
  • Her pursuit of a PHD in mythological studies
  • SEO news including page speed
  • Google’s acquisition of Fitbit
  • The importance of SEO education
  • What makes a good SEO teacher

And much more.

Episode Transcript

00:00:01.260 –> 00:00:15.540
Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are back for the 30th episode of the page to podcast we somehow have managed to stumble our way to 30 episodes. I am here with Jeff.

00:00:16.410 –> 00:00:17.039

00:00:17.340 –> 00:00:29.310
Who we forgot to introduce last time. And I want to make that mistake again. And we are also here with Alicia AK Anderson. How you doing, Alicia.

00:00:29.640 –> 00:00:30.720
doing really well.

00:00:31.590 –> 00:00:48.180
And Alicia is right now she’s a contractor, but she’s a former head of SEO at hip camp as well as an Associate Director of Web MD. So a lot of really, really amazing experience coming from from Alicia side.

00:00:50.430 –> 00:00:51.750
Thank you for having me today.

00:00:52.080 –> 00:01:07.560
You’re welcome. So I here by reading your Twitter bio that you are a storyteller. So tell me a story, tell me a story. How did you get into SEO. Tell me about yourself. Let the listeners know who are you

00:01:08.700 –> 00:01:14.730
So I’m in the early to mid, mid 2000s.

00:01:15.870 –> 00:01:23.550
I was working for both south, which if you don’t live in the South. It was originally take it was taken over by at AMP t

00:01:25.350 –> 00:01:26.790
And in that time period.

00:01:28.020 –> 00:01:40.890
I was a billing manager and I was doing data analysis sequel database queries and dealing with data at a very minute dollars and cents level to the point where the

00:01:41.370 –> 00:02:05.310
Big project I did was how to round or truncate your minutes into dollars it’s. It was ridiculous. Lee detailed um I made the career decision that I wanted to work more in Word and Excel. I said, I want to write. I want to do something that’s creative, I’m tired of all this data, which is

00:02:08.010 –> 00:02:09.510
Because I then ended up in SEO.

00:02:11.130 –> 00:02:33.000
But where I ended up going with that urge was this was in the the the era of the bygone days of pre Panda of content firms and you could write content on the internet and make like a pittance for any number of sites and it was how I went about gaining work experience in SEO.

00:02:34.230 –> 00:02:39.390
Because what I was able to do was create web content and then track how it performed

00:02:40.170 –> 00:02:48.030
And one of the specific sites actually had SEO training and SEO experts working for them in like the forums and stuff like that.

00:02:48.480 –> 00:03:06.600
And they actually taught us how to do keyword research how to track our progress, how to use keyword information for content strategy like basic keyword information that I’m in 2007 was kind of avant garde and I discovered this whole realm of SEO as a job.

00:03:08.610 –> 00:03:18.780
At that time, the at AMP T takeover happened at both south, which is essentially the Jetsons taking over the Flint, or the Flintstones taking over the Jetsons is is how I would put that

00:03:19.920 –> 00:03:23.100
I did not want to go to the Stone Age and so

00:03:24.120 –> 00:03:35.190
I took a package I left. And with that extra money I freelanced and basically worked my way as a web copywriter into learning SEO from agencies.

00:03:37.170 –> 00:03:52.320
And then I started working in house from there. I’ve been working in house for. So I’ve been in SEO for 12 years going on 13 years which I’ve seen everything from hummingbird to like I’ve seen all the big updates.

00:03:53.340 –> 00:04:06.660
Which is kind of insane. And I actually focused on global SEO really early in my career, which is how I ended up at Web MD, because they needed somebody who understood global SEO for their UK Cobra and

00:04:07.740 –> 00:04:12.600
I was at weapon D for six years, and

00:04:14.550 –> 00:04:23.430
Then I actually got a chronic illness and couldn’t handle the stress and couldn’t handle like the massive amount of work that was

00:04:24.840 –> 00:04:36.210
That was happening there. And so I scaled back and I took on the job at hip camp as their head of SEO for a year and a half, as a remote job, which was fantastic. And it was exactly what I needed.

00:04:37.560 –> 00:04:43.530
At the same time, because I don’t know how to like set limits. I, I also started grad school.

00:04:44.370 –> 00:04:58.170
And so I was doing grad school and hip camp for a couple of years, and now I’m contracting and doing grad school. At the same time, I’ve earned my masters. I’m now in the PhD program again because I don’t know how to say slow down.

00:05:00.540 –> 00:05:03.480
And yeah, I’m contracting and

00:05:04.530 –> 00:05:11.910
Enjoying it I’m I have about a dozen clients right now. Some through an agency that I work with, and some through personal contacts.

00:05:13.170 –> 00:05:16.020
And it’s been really, really interesting.

00:05:17.790 –> 00:05:34.830
We were talking earlier via email about my passions and what I found is that in the last three or four years or so, I’ve really found a passion for training and teaching SEO and using training and teaching to get buy in with stakeholders and to

00:05:36.240 –> 00:05:41.610
You know, create SEO as part of the DNA of a bit of a business, instead of just kind of an afterthought.

00:05:44.220 –> 00:05:49.560
So let me ask you something. And I’ve got a lot of there’s a lot there. The

00:05:50.970 –> 00:05:57.360
Question that I have, um, I do. First one to ask about mythological studies.

00:05:58.800 –> 00:06:07.590
You’re, you’re getting a PhD in mythological studies. So for those people, myself included, that don’t know what that means, explain it to us.

00:06:08.310 –> 00:06:14.730
So, um, my program is the is of the lineage, the academic lineage of Joseph Campbell.

00:06:15.780 –> 00:06:23.370
Um, which is a concept of comparative mythology cross cultural comparisons of mythologies, as well as

00:06:24.480 –> 00:06:31.950
Kind of the underpinnings of what makes this culture way over here and that culture way over there have very similar myths.

00:06:32.460 –> 00:06:42.540
And understanding did the myth just travel and they’re telling the same myth or did it arise separately, and this is a part of the human condition and a part of our psychology

00:06:43.950 –> 00:06:51.000
So that’s essentially what mythological studies is it’s a global cross cultural psychological look at

00:06:52.170 –> 00:06:52.950
At myth.

00:06:54.180 –> 00:07:03.930
So I find it fascinating that in SEO is studying myths and mythological logical stuff. Um,

00:07:04.980 –> 00:07:09.000
I guess I have to ask, what’s the biggest SEO myth, you’ve come across

00:07:11.790 –> 00:07:12.420

00:07:13.980 –> 00:07:27.600
Biggest SEO Miss I’ve come across. Honestly, I have an entire shelf that is nothing about but that crossover like technology as symptom and dream is the book I’m staring at an internet dreams, um,

00:07:28.770 –> 00:07:29.910
I think that

00:07:31.230 –> 00:07:42.720
As Google is attempting to meet human needs by using AI and an algorithmic answers, they’re attempting to

00:07:45.270 –> 00:07:57.870
mimic human behavior and understand and breakdown human behavior online. And one of the myths that I think is happening is that the whole like

00:07:59.190 –> 00:08:10.500
You know, SEO and UX side where people are saying, um, you know, if you solve for you actual software SEO hundred percent of the time, I believe that that’s

00:08:12.600 –> 00:08:29.220
That’s like kind of my answer of if it comes down to doing this for the user doing this for us to do it for the user. But at the same time, I feel like Google is not necessarily all the way there yet. And sometimes you really do have to spoon feed the Googlebot just a little bit.

00:08:30.570 –> 00:08:34.410
Because solving for you. X 100% still isn’t going to get you there.

00:08:35.520 –> 00:08:42.150
At the same time, I do think that Google is really trying to emulate the human response. And so isn’t

00:08:44.220 –> 00:08:56.370
It doesn’t make sense to speak to it as if it’s a robot either. So it’s like you’re talking with, you know, an Android or data from Star Trek The Next Generation or something that has like somewhere in the middle.

00:08:57.150 –> 00:09:01.080
Yeah, I think this, it’s, it’s interesting. We

00:09:02.100 –> 00:09:15.720
Live in an interesting time in space within within SEO. Right now we are on one side. Things are getting really, really advanced in terms of Google and other search engines, but mostly Google

00:09:16.470 –> 00:09:30.540
Their use of AI and their ability to render websites to understand the difference between very similar similar queries. And then on the other side we’ve got

00:09:32.100 –> 00:09:50.910
Sites that I get. I don’t know. Jeff, you tell you tell me, and Alicia. You tell me. Like I feel like a lot of the stuff I run up against when I’m helping clients is still incredibly, incredibly, incredibly basic. Like we’re helping them like learn how to walk when

00:09:51.930 –> 00:10:09.570
Over here you know Google is, is, you know, very focused on to use an analogy I guess running. They’re focused on on running when there are many, many websites out there that are still just struggling to walk. And one of the things that I see very often is

00:10:10.740 –> 00:10:16.440
Things as simple as, like, your UX can be really, really great. And you can have a beautiful website.

00:10:18.090 –> 00:10:24.390
That consumers like but if you’re missing the content that people search for

00:10:25.650 –> 00:10:33.360
You don’t have a lot of chance to be successful, like your site can be technically, technically well optimized. I work

00:10:34.380 –> 00:10:42.450
With a client that is that is exactly this way. They’ve got a really good brand. A really technically well optimized site.

00:10:43.620 –> 00:11:01.200
But there. They have been missing some key content and until they’ve added that key content. They’ve been like we don’t we don’t get it. Why is an SEO quote unquote working well, sometimes in order to rank for something you have to have a page for it. I know, it’s crazy.

00:11:01.740 –> 00:11:02.310
But if you’re

00:11:02.610 –> 00:11:09.060
If you’re designing for customers most customers don’t like to read. I mean, if you

00:11:10.080 –> 00:11:18.240
If you’re looking for a research paper. Yes. But when you’re looking at a product. I think it’s like you want a couple points about it. And I think most of the time you’re probably reading reviews but

00:11:18.960 –> 00:11:34.170
But at the same time it’s it’s interesting because to design folks don’t like to put lots of words on the pages because again, people don’t be bogged down with all this content though Google needs it to read. So I think it is one of those

00:11:35.280 –> 00:11:42.090
Thought, I’m not gonna say a battle. It’s really becoming everyone get on the same page, like we have goals. We need to have traffic.

00:11:42.780 –> 00:11:51.840
These are some things that Google needs at the same time we have, you know, design needs right I again. If it was up to SEO is I think most of our websites will look like Wikipedia.

00:11:52.800 –> 00:11:59.460
Which is because it were like a great here’s a whole bunch of content. So we need to have that that balance there so

00:12:00.090 –> 00:12:07.920
Yeah, and I find with like B to C customers specifically right now. What I’m bumping up against is the, what is it,

00:12:08.820 –> 00:12:16.140
So many of the head terms the ranking is educational. It’s a what is query. It’s an informational query. And that’s where you want that Wikipedia page that is like

00:12:16.650 –> 00:12:20.220
A big long list of all the things you ever needed to know about this thing.

00:12:21.000 –> 00:12:29.160
And the issue is that most of these companies that are B to C are going that their decision makers and the people who are searching for them.

00:12:29.700 –> 00:12:35.760
Are people who already know what it is. And so to convince them that they need a, what is it page.

00:12:36.420 –> 00:12:51.120
In order to round out their content portfolio when their clients and customers and the people who are landing on their site already know what it is it that’s that balance that’s that, like, okay, but you kinda still need a, what is it page.

00:12:54.120 –> 00:13:02.100
Very high funnel low conversion stuff introduce her content. I like to call it, but not necessarily transactional

00:13:02.850 –> 00:13:13.950
Hi. Well, and that. And the thing is is that that’s not that’s not where their their their customer is um but it’s where the search traffic is so it’s a very

00:13:15.270 –> 00:13:18.270
It’s, it’s absolutely something I bumped into constantly

00:13:18.780 –> 00:13:24.930
Yeah, I see that type of content. And when I’m when I’m trying to sell it. I try to sell it obviously for the the

00:13:25.530 –> 00:13:38.430
That’s where the search traffic is. And the question I get is, Do I even want to rank for this. And for me, like, for the most part, the question is yes because you’re potentially

00:13:39.420 –> 00:13:52.950
You know, running exposing your brand to a lot of different consumers and maybe one or maybe two or maybe three of those consumers will later on down the line. Maybe not immediately.

00:13:54.150 –> 00:14:07.050
Turn into customers because they weren’t aware of your brand before and now they are because they’ve read that piece of content but part is everybody that gets that piece of content going to be a converter. No.

00:14:08.070 –> 00:14:18.330
I think that there’s a there’s definitely a brand element. There’s a marketing element to the brand there. The other element of that that I see and I see it even more now is

00:14:20.190 –> 00:14:27.780
Contextual ality we each site has an about notice it has a context. And what I find is that

00:14:28.140 –> 00:14:33.930
You have to have that. What is it, and you have to have that that established expertise in your field.

00:14:34.260 –> 00:14:44.520
For that contextual reality because ranking well for the, what is it, even if those visitors aren’t converting will help you rank well for the things that the, what is it is linking to

00:14:45.180 –> 00:14:56.520
Yeah, and so I find that contextual ality tends to be more of a play there as well. And a lot of those spaces, especially when it’s a really complicated thing.

00:14:58.140 –> 00:15:03.720
You know, we’re the experts in this 50 word saying, it’s like, Okay, well, we need a, what is it that

00:15:06.030 –> 00:15:24.000
I think this whole discussion really comprises and I hate this word, but the at expertise authority trust. Yeah, I think that building that full portfolio is all about establishing UT which I really hate that I’m using a buzzword but i but i am i’m

00:15:25.230 –> 00:15:32.970
Going to go back. I do want to go back because I we got way down in the weeds and that’s cool. I love getting in the weeds, like my favorite thing to do.

00:15:34.170 –> 00:15:46.890
But you mentioned stress and I think on the agency side like it’s a big giant ball of stress. Stress all the time. Especially now in the holiday in the holiday season.

00:15:47.280 –> 00:15:58.170
Um, I also find it ironic that you were working at Web MD, when you were having this stress in the in the in the in kind of the medical condition that you

00:15:59.160 –> 00:16:16.260
That you could that you mentioned. So I guess. Talk to me about the process of what was working at Web MD, like, and I’m just also thinking about other people that might be going through this. How did that stress kind of come up for you and how did you deal with it.

00:16:17.580 –> 00:16:19.920
The stress was absolutely um

00:16:21.630 –> 00:16:28.980
You know, a joint a joint effort in terms of my own inability to set limits and

00:16:30.270 –> 00:16:32.220
The demands of the company.

00:16:33.900 –> 00:16:40.020
You know, I work, I work a good bet on the agency side right now and I find the stress levels, very different.

00:16:41.070 –> 00:16:43.260
I find the stress the words very different

00:16:45.480 –> 00:16:53.370
On the in house side. What I find it’s funny you said the irony about working at Web MD and that that I was having health problems because of it.

00:16:55.140 –> 00:17:12.390
In psychological terms every basically the concept is every time you invoke one thing you also invoke its opposite. So Web MD invokes health and also invokes ill health and and i think that that’s that’s part of what happens in the office culture.

00:17:13.650 –> 00:17:25.950
You have to really have super strong boundaries and really set limits in any in office environment. I’ve worked in so many corporations, where the the corporation will eat you alive if you let it

00:17:26.790 –> 00:17:32.370
And and i think that’s true of any employer these days with, you know, the way that our world works.

00:17:34.380 –> 00:17:40.710
And I believe that part of it is about is about that setting of limits.

00:17:42.060 –> 00:17:46.170
One of the issues that I bumped into was adequate resource planning.

00:17:47.820 –> 00:17:50.340
Because I was

00:17:51.540 –> 00:18:12.240
The, the cycle of hiring help is so long. It’s such a long ramp and Jeff knows this. The Atlanta market is we’ve got kind of a weird mix of people who have SEO experience. And so getting the right person to hire in the Atlanta market is is tricky as well.

00:18:13.560 –> 00:18:20.910
So that long rep of resource getting the right person in often happens, eight months after the project started.

00:18:22.230 –> 00:18:29.730
And then you’ve got to train them and they have a six month ramp up and now the project is in full swing. And you’re like, good, allow me to overwhelm you.

00:18:32.190 –> 00:18:45.120
And I think that that honestly my own you know that just the resource planning of understanding where the business was going so quickly and then having that kind of lead time for resource planning was a big part of it.

00:18:45.720 –> 00:18:58.350
Another big part of it for me specifically was there’s a battle. I’m especially with a publicly traded company Wendy was taken over and is now privately owned

00:18:58.890 –> 00:19:16.410
In since I left, but at the time it was it was beholden to the quarterly shareholder reviews and it was a publicly traded company and I find with publicly traded companies that that quarterly shareholder review. We’ve gotta show what we’re doing to show our value and show our growth.

00:19:17.550 –> 00:19:31.500
Every single time is actually incredibly toxic. Um, the, the stock, the stock shareholder kind of market of of growth for growth’s sake.

00:19:32.520 –> 00:19:36.270
Always be growing is is not sustainable.

00:19:37.350 –> 00:19:45.240
That’s why you have mergers and acquisitions. That’s why you have like all of these other things. And I feel like it’s cancerous.

00:19:46.410 –> 00:19:55.410
Growth for growth’s sake, without really carefully growing where you want to grow is is the definition of cancer, um, which again haha Web MD.

00:19:57.060 –> 00:19:59.340
Funny side note, just so you know.

00:20:00.570 –> 00:20:01.800
While I was there.

00:20:02.940 –> 00:20:10.770
They. It was a I’m going to say this publicly and I’m far enough gone. They can’t hurt me. Um,

00:20:12.300 –> 00:20:30.030
It was a massive PR fail on their behalf on their behalf, because they did not own the memes um they redid the symptom checker symptom checker 2.0 happened while I was there, and prior to symptom checker 2.0 the symptom checker when you plugged in your stuff with alpha, alpha baptized

00:20:31.830 –> 00:20:35.760
So cancer came above everything because it was at the top of the freaking alphabet.

00:20:36.780 –> 00:20:44.610
Now it’s done by prevalence and now you’re can get common cold and flu above cancer because it’s done by prevalence

00:20:45.120 –> 00:20:57.330
And so they recreated symptom checker to make it so that cancer wasn’t at the top of everything. And this is like seven years ago and they never like owned it and said, hey, you’re not gonna have cancer anymore.

00:20:58.620 –> 00:21:16.260
They never like played with it and said, this is what we can do, like we sometimes use checker 2.0 it’s not alphabetical anymore. Like for me as as like an internet marketer. I’m like, oh, that’s such a loss like it’s such a waste to not just own the funny and go with it.

00:21:18.180 –> 00:21:19.590
But anyway, that

00:21:20.880 –> 00:21:25.680
The, the growth for growth’s sake model is really, really hard for any SEO team.

00:21:26.850 –> 00:21:40.440
Because first of all, SEO takes time. A lot of our efforts. It’s like, yeah, you’ll see that effort in three quarters. So what have you been doing this month. Well, what I did a year ago or what so and so screwed up two years ago.

00:21:42.180 –> 00:21:51.510
So you see that growth pattern for for those traded companies can be the source of so much stress when it’s unrealistic.

00:21:51.990 –> 00:22:06.630
And then it comes down to messaging and it comes down to. Can your C suite hear those messages. Can you adjust what you’re saying, how do you talk about those things like that that becomes a whole nother another bollocks. I’m

00:22:08.190 –> 00:22:17.580
Getting out of that pattern for me was really, really important in terms of stress, just getting out of the not having enough help in the right time.

00:22:18.090 –> 00:22:34.140
And getting out of the pattern of the growth for growth’s sake was really, really important. Um, I, I used to prefer in house because I liked seeing the long term results and right now I’m really enjoying agency, because I can go here’s all of the things that you need to fix.

00:22:37.170 –> 00:22:40.950
And I don’t have to wait for that. But we’re not growing every quarter.

00:22:42.060 –> 00:22:44.910
Which is actually quite a relief, honestly.

00:22:46.950 –> 00:23:02.310
Yeah, I mean, it can be a relief I I do sometimes want to see things all the way through to the end and on the agency side if the clients don’t necessarily see that growth or at least are aligned with your vision of when the growth will happen.

00:23:03.750 –> 00:23:05.850
Have plenty of clients that have been like

00:23:06.750 –> 00:23:12.360
You know, cut your contract because we haven’t seen the growth. We wanted to see. So like stressful on the agency side but

00:23:12.630 –> 00:23:18.600
If you’re aligned with the client and and i think i think is the best side of things in the agency world just because

00:23:19.050 –> 00:23:27.270
When you get to do a whole bunch of different like you get problems thrown at you all the time and you get to, you know, try to solve those problems, which is great.

00:23:27.990 –> 00:23:34.530
But sometimes I do feel like I walk on eggshells a lot with clients because one. You don’t want to call someone else’s baby ugly.

00:23:35.160 –> 00:23:44.940
Know, even if they’re paying you for it. And I’ve worked at some large agencies where we made the ugly baby and and I gotta then tell them that our team. We made the ugly baby.

00:23:46.320 –> 00:23:49.080
It is interesting that in that approach to so

00:23:49.620 –> 00:24:03.840
You guys are touching on kind of an interesting point that I feel like we do with all the time. So, like, I’m just going to give a little bit of kind of a case in point. So I’ve got two clients, one of which

00:24:04.980 –> 00:24:22.950
I don’t want to give away too much information, but I’ll say client a we’ve been working with for a while, often on by their choice and their traffic because of our recommendations is growing wildly, but because they they

00:24:24.600 –> 00:24:32.250
Don’t even know exactly what like can’t see it, like they can see their traffic growing wildly, but I think that there’s

00:24:32.970 –> 00:24:40.950
A belief that maybe it wasn’t due to us or our recommendations or all of that. So there’s that.

00:24:41.760 –> 00:24:53.280
On one side, and on the other side. There’s another client where we’ve had a very successful year and we’ve overcome a lot of challenges and their team is very, very small.

00:24:53.700 –> 00:25:02.460
But we’ve made progress, but it’s not yet the type of progress that has produced tangible results from a traffic standpoint, it’s a lot of

00:25:02.940 –> 00:25:13.500
Coming out of nowhere and getting right on the cusp of doing great things because you were nowhere before and the next phase is going to be moving from being on the cusp to

00:25:14.100 –> 00:25:20.640
Pushing it into a position where the tangible results will start to show it’s a lot of stuff happening below the surface.

00:25:20.940 –> 00:25:31.950
And I have a great relationship with that client and like there’s no doubt that they’re going to continue to work with us and it’s just the juxtaposition client a

00:25:32.460 –> 00:25:41.460
Doesn’t really want to work with us and they’re getting great results client be results aren’t there yet loves working with us. We have a great relationship. And it’s just like

00:25:42.120 –> 00:25:53.880
This world in that we live in is is insane. And sometimes the the thing that you think should be true is not always true. And it leaves me kind of with the question, how do you

00:25:54.930 –> 00:26:04.530
Best come in this deviates from the stress question, but how do you put in this actually does stress me out and keep me up at night. How do you do a good job of messaging.

00:26:05.010 –> 00:26:16.470
The real story of what’s actually going on when the C suite only looks at vanity metrics and sometimes doesn’t even look at that.

00:26:17.070 –> 00:26:32.400
Or when the C suite doesn’t know the full story and is coming to you with whatever they believe to be the truth, whether it is or not, like, how do you deal with that. How do you get them to see the light. How do you build that build that dam and build that relationship.

00:26:35.370 –> 00:26:35.820

00:26:38.370 –> 00:26:50.040
So one thing that just that is a little bit tan gentle about your question or the about your what you were saying is that the client that you’ve got that you’ve got that great relationship that is not showing results yet.

00:26:50.520 –> 00:26:56.340
I have one like that, that I worked with for six months and what I do because this was my personal client, not an agency thing.

00:26:57.960 –> 00:27:07.950
Every six months I checked, I go back into all of their metrics and check everything and send them an update and go, this is what you’re working on. This is what you should do next, like, and I do it for free.

00:27:09.300 –> 00:27:17.880
You know, because they can hire me to help them with those action items but it allows me to, you know, a little bit selfishly, look at the data and go. Hi worked

00:27:18.990 –> 00:27:29.340
I get that little that little boost of dope. I mean, um, but also it’s a great way to to kind of resell to clients that do work well with you in that kind of agency world.

00:27:30.900 –> 00:27:34.590
In terms of getting C suite on board when they only look at vanity metrics.

00:27:38.460 –> 00:27:39.090

00:27:40.470 –> 00:27:46.410
That’s a combination of two things. One is you give them the fucking vanity metrics.

00:27:49.500 –> 00:27:50.130

00:27:51.330 –> 00:27:51.990

00:27:53.490 –> 00:28:07.710
If you can get other stuff that really has to happen in order to give them those vanity metrics, great. Um, one of the things that I’ve spoken about on multiple occasions is translate your, your goals into their monopoly money.

00:28:09.660 –> 00:28:17.370
Like, do a currency conversion if their vanity metric is something you don’t care about, but you can currency convert your metric into there’s do it.

00:28:19.590 –> 00:28:25.170
And I say to do this. This is what I did across departments, I did this across clients, um,

00:28:25.680 –> 00:28:37.650
If this department really only cares about lead gen and you know this one specific form, then I am going to use approximations and percentages and ratios to say

00:28:37.950 –> 00:28:46.770
If you let me do this project. It’s going to give you five lead gen forums on this forum for every you know widget. We move or whatever, I’m

00:28:47.580 –> 00:29:01.980
Just kind of backing into those metrics that even if they’re a little nonsensical just using percentages to keep like getting there. Um, the other thing about the vanity metrics. I guy. I have a lot of clients that want to rank for kind of

00:29:04.110 –> 00:29:05.280

00:29:06.480 –> 00:29:22.650
keywords that are not that are important to their marketers, but our sales team, but are not important like they’ve got 50 searches a month or something like like less than that. And you’re like, really. Okay, let’s go spend all our time on that.

00:29:25.830 –> 00:29:35.040
And honestly, the way that I would do that is looking for those wind winds of, okay, we’re going to try to rank for this thing, they really want to rank for that is kind of ridiculous.

00:29:35.610 –> 00:29:44.940
And we’re going to simultaneously make these lesson learned worked over here where it actually is going to move the needle, um,

00:29:46.140 –> 00:30:06.150
Sometimes it is about education. Sometimes it is about teaching the C suite what’s going on. Um, I’ve done more than one high level to four slide long presentations that are. This is what’s happening here are the numbers. This is why I’m telling you this is what matters.

00:30:07.950 –> 00:30:19.020
Because sometimes it is your job to change the focus. Sometimes it is your job to educate and and that’s that’s super challenging. It’s super challenging to

00:30:19.860 –> 00:30:38.760
Take somebody that has the like my nudist amount of attention span and you’ve got their, their attention for like five minutes and you’ve got to go. What you think matters. Doesn’t matter. Here’s what matters in that five minutes. And that’s I’m

00:30:40.410 –> 00:30:47.790
Very, very, very difficult. And I think that’s where the, the difference between an SEO specialist and an SEO manager comes in.

00:30:48.930 –> 00:30:57.150
People with management skills and people who are at the management level are going to be able to drill down a bit more rapidly in that way.

00:30:58.470 –> 00:30:59.910
Yeah, I always say

00:31:01.050 –> 00:31:20.310
Finding the things to fix is it’s not the difficult part getting things implemented is the difficult part and the even more difficult part is proving your, your value when, in some cases it’s it’s not clear, or telling your story and I feel like

00:31:23.490 –> 00:31:26.520
Talking to executives and sea levels.

00:31:27.630 –> 00:31:34.350
Or VP of whatever higher ups leadership within, within a company is something that like

00:31:35.370 –> 00:31:43.140
I don’t feel like anyone starts off as a natural at doing doing that. I think it takes a while, and I find myself even kind of

00:31:44.460 –> 00:31:51.690
Deeper into the into the experience side of things like I’ve been doing this for a long time. And there are times when I still just

00:31:52.290 –> 00:31:59.640
Don’t know what I need to say to make them understand it. It almost becomes a bit of a psychological

00:32:00.210 –> 00:32:14.490
exercise where you have to play out different scenarios and put yourself in their shoes and try to predict what they want to hear from you. That will turn them in the way that you need them to be to be turning so

00:32:14.910 –> 00:32:28.440
My hack for that. Yeah, I was, uh, because I always I was known for writing emails that were way too long. I was known for writing these like novel emails and you guys are both laughing and I know that you you totally understand.

00:32:28.860 –> 00:32:29.250

00:32:29.640 –> 00:32:40.110
Those like super, super long emails. So, I will write that email with all of the because this and here’s the data for that. And here’s this and here’s that and then I will write the TL Dr.

00:32:41.220 –> 00:32:50.220
And put that at the top like because we’re used to doing that right that’s like part of our world is doing the TL Dr. Right. Then I will take that entire email and save it to word

00:32:52.020 –> 00:32:54.090
And send the executive only the TL Dr.

00:32:57.120 –> 00:33:06.840
And that tends to be exactly what you needed to say and then often they’re like, do you have further data about blah, blah, blah. And you’re like, Yes, I do.

00:33:07.380 –> 00:33:09.330
Because you’ve already done all that homework.

00:33:10.470 –> 00:33:11.430
That’s great approach.

00:33:13.920 –> 00:33:21.630
So Jeff, I wanna, I want to put a pause on this and then I want to get back into kind of the teaching aspect, what’s in the news.

00:33:23.370 –> 00:33:26.160
Cool. So one of the big things.

00:33:27.810 –> 00:33:39.810
Will be okay. It’s one of the big things we have this week is Google. I mean, Google is really been focusing on Page Speed, right, so last week and probably the week before we talked about PHP going into Google Search Console.

00:33:40.620 –> 00:33:51.540
But now they’re actually looking to build badging into Chrome to let people know that sites are slower or faster than you know the average bear, I guess.

00:33:52.350 –> 00:34:00.990
So it’s, it’s interesting because, again, I’m always trying to push my clients to be faster. And this is another approach that Google is taking to say

00:34:01.470 –> 00:34:08.460
Hey, your sites aren’t fast enough. Now we’re going to alert the world just like to do with HTTPS and you’re not secure

00:34:09.450 –> 00:34:20.220
So again, another thing I can show my clients to say like, this is really serious. This time I know before it said it was serious. And then now like but you know nothing changed. Now that you know it.

00:34:20.640 –> 00:34:21.690
Really seriously and

00:34:21.690 –> 00:34:22.920
That was really serious because

00:34:22.920 –> 00:34:27.870
Now you’re going to get like a red X next year site or something that says that you’re slow so

00:34:29.370 –> 00:34:38.040
I really do think that PHP is important. And I’m kind of running a study now trying to look at a whole bunch of e commerce sites and where they are in page beads

00:34:38.910 –> 00:34:48.720
Those sometimes it’s hard to get those metrics. Right. So I hope that when Google get tell somebody that their site is slow that they actually get the right metrics there because

00:34:49.110 –> 00:35:00.630
I am noticing about out of 150 e comm retailers that I’m looking at there are about 20 of them that are giving me inconsistent data inside of Google page speed insights

00:35:01.200 –> 00:35:09.570
Using their API. Sometimes I’ll get 100 and I’m like, why is this like giving me 100 right now. And that’s because they got a page that was blank.

00:35:10.350 –> 00:35:23.820
And like, hey, we have no JavaScript this page must be fast. But then I rerun it. And then I get a 36 so I am just hoping that we get those metrics down before we actually start putting people on blast.

00:35:26.070 –> 00:35:30.990
I have a question for you guys about page speed. This is a actually something that’s come up multiple times.

00:35:32.280 –> 00:35:43.650
You know, the whole is it important, is it really important, is it really, really important. Now, however, no site. I’ve been on has cracked the nut of actually having a fast site that does all the things they want it to do.

00:35:45.150 –> 00:35:52.200
Um, my question for you guys is one of the things that I’ve been feeling for a while, is that it really depends on the competition.

00:35:52.830 –> 00:36:02.190
That it that benchmarking the Page Speed across the competition is more valuable if everybody in your competition is a 35 and you have a 40, you’re probably okay.

00:36:03.000 –> 00:36:17.520
Um, if everybody in your competition has a 75 and you have a 30 you need to pay attention to it. Right. Um, that’s been my approach. More recently, what do you guys think in terms of the fact that nobody’s going to have a perfect score.

00:36:18.720 –> 00:36:24.990
Right, so that’s actually part of the reason I’m kind of putting together this little study that I hope to have

00:36:25.710 –> 00:36:33.270
One, it’s holiday season. Everyone thinks about e commerce, but so many of my e commerce clients deal with kind of go that route. Right. I

00:36:33.690 –> 00:36:45.420
I run a report. And I’m like, you got a 45, you know, we can, we should be at least by the 80s and then I run it against their six competitors and they’re doing better than their six competitors, so

00:36:45.930 –> 00:36:55.410
And e commerce is also tough right because you have lots of images and if you know for we’re designing for customers. Customers don’t want 10 products on a page.

00:36:55.800 –> 00:37:05.760
You know, they want to have more because they don’t want to have to click keep clicking next. So it’s one of those where I think industry specific. I also think it’s his competition specific

00:37:07.050 –> 00:37:18.000
Though I have found a couple that were, you know, put one out there IKEA. They’re getting like close to 100 all around with their reports and I gotta dig a little bit deeper into them. Like, why are they doing that.

00:37:19.020 –> 00:37:30.240
But it’s if they seem to have really great scores. While some other ones like I was kind of laughing, but like dollar tree gets a one and it’s like $1 so so it’s kind of a it’s ironic there.

00:37:30.570 –> 00:37:32.160
But in general, like

00:37:32.280 –> 00:37:42.360
I think the industry somewhere in the middle right you have those outliers, but for the most part, everyone’s getting between a 40 and 60 or something like that, where no one’s crushing it. Um,

00:37:42.960 –> 00:37:49.650
But yeah, I think, again, as a consultant. We’re always like, we want to be the top of the bunch, where we get the benefits of it.

00:37:49.980 –> 00:37:55.800
Right before everyone put scheme on their website, you had that big benefit of getting some, you know, stars in your reviews.

00:37:56.370 –> 00:38:01.890
Now everyone’s doing it and Google’s cutting it back because they can’t have everybody have an enhanced listing right so

00:38:02.250 –> 00:38:09.540
It’s one of those things where I think getting ahead of it is one great for your customers, but you’re not even thinking about rankings thinking about like your customer experience.

00:38:10.410 –> 00:38:16.140
You know that it’s really great that way. But on top of that. Now it’s a ranking factor and Google’s really trying to

00:38:17.100 –> 00:38:29.160
Push that inside of the search, you know, this is one of the ways doing it by having it again. It’s just in Chromium right now, but they’re one of those things like once it gets pushed live. You’re just like could be put on blast. So watch out balladry

00:38:29.490 –> 00:38:36.120
I’ve been the thing I’ve dealt with and I’ve been like fighting this uphill battle for years and I don’t know how many more hints

00:38:36.810 –> 00:38:47.610
Google can possibly give to say that it is important. I mean, they’ve made it even a ranking factor, and now it’s obviously not a big ranking factor, but it’s a factor nonetheless.

00:38:48.660 –> 00:38:56.550
I just don’t know how many more bones, they can continue to throw before people decide

00:38:57.000 –> 00:39:08.160
Or finally come to the realization that it’s that it’s actually important and take it seriously of the thing that I even still, to this day, run into is just a high level of skepticism.

00:39:08.700 –> 00:39:18.720
And when you go to a client and say, Hey, your page is getting like a 40 on mobile page speed, they really look at me and it’s almost like a. So, what

00:39:19.470 –> 00:39:26.340
What does that really mean. Or where was that test from because everybody knows Google uses a lot of lab.

00:39:26.940 –> 00:39:39.240
In industry industry data. So like, you don’t get to specify like device type or location that you’re testing from like you can with a webpage test and even with that they’re, they’re still skeptical.

00:39:39.930 –> 00:39:49.200
So there’s for whatever reason a lot of skepticism. I will say that in the few times that I’ve been able to convince

00:39:50.070 –> 00:40:11.520
Clients that this is the right thing to do, it came down to money and putting the putting the money like very clearly on the table and showing them how much money they were losing by not improving. There’s any number of studies that talk about the effect of the

00:40:12.540 –> 00:40:25.980
Inverse relationship between load time and conversion rate in revenue, the higher your load time goes the worst of the worst your conversion rate is and the less revenue that you get in the door. And I remember like

00:40:27.210 –> 00:40:38.850
clear as day sitting in a meeting with a huge hospitality client at another agency in telling them, and even when I made these numbers up. I felt like

00:40:39.330 –> 00:40:45.630
These are ridiculous numbers. But then I realized like the scale know this could actually be this could actually be right.

00:40:46.410 –> 00:40:52.530
I told them, like, Hey, your conversion rate is here and this is how much revenue you get from that.

00:40:53.130 –> 00:41:09.600
I think by increasing your speed, your conversion rate could be here and should be here and this is how much revenue you would gain and it was in the realm of millions and they laughed me out of the room and didn’t take me seriously. And I was like I was so mad. Let’s stop serious

00:41:10.770 –> 00:41:13.830
But then they partnered with a

00:41:14.940 –> 00:41:27.180
vendor who specializes in speed and helping people fix speed because they finally started to think, maybe there’s something to this. And the vendor who does this all the time for a living.

00:41:27.870 –> 00:41:39.690
Actually said that estimate was actually low, it’s worth more. And finally, they started taking little old me seriously and a lot of other recommendations went through a lot of

00:41:40.050 –> 00:41:55.140
You know way easier. But it was it was nice vindication but for whatever reason, like I just don’t get it. People don’t take this seriously, it’s really hard. Don’t get me wrong, speed is really hard, really complex, but like, people don’t take it seriously and I don’t get why I

00:41:55.170 –> 00:42:04.020
Think that you just nailed it on the head, that it’s really hard. It’s resource allocation and you have. So going back to my hip camp days.

00:42:04.500 –> 00:42:18.450
We had an engineering team of, you know, between six and 10 engineers at any time focusing on any number of projects and to focus on Page Speed would take away focuses on

00:42:19.350 –> 00:42:26.940
You know, fixing the shopping cart or the mobile site or this part or that part or, you know, this new thing that we’re creating

00:42:27.690 –> 00:42:38.130
And that conversion into money, putting it in the in the monopoly money that they care about that conversion into the dollars and cents that they care about still isn’t enough.

00:42:38.610 –> 00:42:46.380
To warrant taking that engineers. Time to because the. The other thing is, is that the engineers are looking at, like they do all the low hanging fruit. Right.

00:42:46.710 –> 00:42:48.270
And then they look at the stuff that’s left

00:42:48.330 –> 00:42:51.300
And they’re like, that’s going to take weeks.

00:42:52.170 –> 00:43:06.630
And the person who’s running that team goes, I can’t have a person tied up for weeks on Page Speed when we don’t know what the ROI is and we don’t know what this is. And, and, like, how was that worth it and and then it just comes down to the ROI equations really

00:43:08.010 –> 00:43:15.720
Having the inverse relationship of conversions absolutely is a huge part of it. Also the bounce rate is a huge part of it. That’s part of what I use to talk about it.

00:43:17.460 –> 00:43:24.720
You know it, but it does often come down to not that they don’t take it seriously, but that they don’t

00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:32.340
That it’s not as serious enough to allocate the resources that it would take to fix it.

00:43:32.850 –> 00:43:44.370
Because it is so site wide it is so endemic. It’s not like you can just fix one page. It’s not like you can just like pull a couple of levers, these are these are like you’ve got a restructure your JavaScript have fun.

00:43:48.330 –> 00:43:49.170
Go over some basics.

00:43:49.230 –> 00:43:51.210
Ages and all of them have giant images.

00:43:52.170 –> 00:43:53.850
Here to have fun. Go fix them all.

00:43:54.420 –> 00:44:01.170
And there are some things you can do that are basic like giant images. I have no one client who continually

00:44:01.590 –> 00:44:09.060
In their main navigation. They have a drop down where they put a little image on the bottom of the drop down and it changes monthly

00:44:09.990 –> 00:44:24.150
And it’s, it’s always two or three megabytes in size, for some reason, right, and it’s on every single page throughout the whole site and once like I put a ticket into the ticketing system, we get a fixed next month designer uploads and other one. That’s it.

00:44:24.540 –> 00:44:27.000
So without training and processes.

00:44:27.000 –> 00:44:29.490
So so valuable.

00:44:29.550 –> 00:44:35.970
Exactly and education is awesome because a lot of times I’m personally dealing with so and so, who works in this department.

00:44:36.720 –> 00:44:47.070
Sometimes it’s the tech team sometime it’s the marketing team. Never. Is it the design and like design team. So it’s like one of those where and designers. Nobody wants to really

00:44:47.640 –> 00:44:52.080
be told what to do. I used to be a developer in SEO is used to come to me with

00:44:52.470 –> 00:45:01.500
Their list of keywords and title tags and I was like, get out, like, you know, I’m trying to solve the world here, you know, by coming up with new fancy ways Dakota site and

00:45:02.130 –> 00:45:08.760
Then, once I moved over to the SEO world. It’s like, oh, you know, I mean, that’s, again, things that we need to do, but there’s so much other things and

00:45:09.180 –> 00:45:15.990
I wrote like a 27 page document for my one client who kept on having those issues just about image optimization in general.

00:45:16.560 –> 00:45:32.040
And I kind of white labeled. It’s like, give it to any client, but at the same time. It’s like this is one thing we can do on our site which shouldn’t take any tech time. It’s just once we learn that process, we can update our images and we’ll save three seconds or whatever that would

00:45:32.730 –> 00:45:33.240
So this is

00:45:33.660 –> 00:45:43.230
I’m glad that there are services like cloud flare and cloud and airy. It’s another one that are beginning to take this out of the designer who doesn’t give

00:45:44.730 –> 00:45:53.490
A shit about page speed or anything. It’s just trying to do their job, which is designed a beautiful sight and a beautiful image, whatever it is.

00:45:54.540 –> 00:46:12.660
There are there are now tools that begin to automate that and I can’t wait for them to become more pervasive within the way people manage that pervasive probably not the right word, but to expand into into the reality of the way that more people manage sites.

00:46:12.750 –> 00:46:16.740
I think that automation and processes, a very big important part of that, however.

00:46:17.850 –> 00:46:20.700
One of the things that I learned was

00:46:21.780 –> 00:46:38.760
That empowering people to help you and to have them help you with your problem solving is probably the most effective thing you could do. So going back to Web MD, you know, it’s a site that is really dependent upon SEO traffic. And so our, our department had

00:46:40.200 –> 00:46:50.100
A little bit of clout and so I was able to kind of swing that very gently into providing an SEO one on one for

00:46:51.000 –> 00:47:06.810
Any new hire coming in the door, because basically the the office where I sat in Midtown Atlanta had about 200 300 people and every single one of those people touched SEO in some way, shape, or form they made my life, good or bad depending on their day.

00:47:08.220 –> 00:47:19.650
And I needed them to know that I needed them to know that they were doing SEO regardless of whether they knew it or not. And so I did a little, um,

00:47:20.310 –> 00:47:33.750
Top Hat And Tails gig for new hires every couple of weeks, I would, I would go in and do this hour. And essentially, the whole hour was where our jobs intersect where you’re doing SEO and I’m

00:47:34.740 –> 00:47:44.580
When to call me and hi I’m friendly. This is what I look like. Say hi to me in the break room. And I’m such an introvert. It was really, really funny that I knew, like the entire company because of this.

00:47:46.320 –> 00:47:58.230
So, um, the way that that shook out was that the managers of these teams would sit in on these on these classes and they would go, Oh, this is amazing. I want this for my entire my entire group.

00:47:58.680 –> 00:48:10.710
And then I would get invited back to do a lunch and learn for the engineering team that was SEO for engineers or a lunch and learn for the design team that was SEO for designers and then I’m in the room with the entire design team for an hour.

00:48:12.240 –> 00:48:25.410
And the, the being able to show them. Okay, file size. This is what the difference in file size does this is what the file type and the way you’re saving it does. Please do this, but this is what file image naming conventions matter.

00:48:26.040 –> 00:48:29.190
You know, and this is why this is what I keep asking you to do.

00:48:30.210 –> 00:48:36.300
This is how this actually integrates and works on the site. And then this is how you’re succeeding.

00:48:36.960 –> 00:48:45.360
The key to all of it was not just this is how you’re making my life difficult but also this is how you’re winning and something you can put in your performance report.

00:48:45.720 –> 00:48:52.800
And I became the go to person for everybody to go, what can I put in my performance report about image sizes and image search and

00:48:53.430 –> 00:49:01.110
You know the improvements in Page Speed and and like I literally had one of the engineers. Buy me a steak dinner because she was like

00:49:01.440 –> 00:49:10.200
You, you just completely got me my bonus because you gave me all the metrics that I had no access to otherwise because I don’t understand how nature works. And this was awesome. Thank you.

00:49:11.790 –> 00:49:23.160
And so that was actually like I became their source for those metrics and so I’d be like okay so image search. This is where your images are showing up in search results and show them the Search Console report.

00:49:23.610 –> 00:49:31.770
And let them see which images are kicking ass and show them the the searches and actually show them what the search results look like or the image carousels where those call outs were

00:49:33.360 –> 00:49:40.320
And suddenly, they’re like, they’re like, oh, this thing I’m doing is actually visible on Google and they can, like, go home and show their kids, you know,

00:49:40.620 –> 00:49:47.220
And believe it or not. They do. They go home and show their wives and husbands that this is what they’re doing, because they’re like, I learned something new today.

00:49:47.820 –> 00:49:54.810
And they get excited about it and then all of a sudden you have buy in, you have cooperation, you have, you have a teamwork that is cohesive

00:49:55.170 –> 00:50:04.860
And then you can say, hey, as far as process improvement goes, Can we, you know, make saving files, the smaller thing as part of your process and then they like you and they’ll do that.

00:50:07.980 –> 00:50:09.090
softer side of evil.

00:50:13.470 –> 00:50:15.960
So this is how, why I’m passionate about training.

00:50:17.520 –> 00:50:19.650
Very important, very important.

00:50:21.000 –> 00:50:21.330

00:50:22.440 –> 00:50:24.150
We just beat the shit out of Page Speed

00:50:24.750 –> 00:50:25.830
Yeah, I know. So

00:50:25.890 –> 00:50:26.190
That’s one.

00:50:26.340 –> 00:50:33.450
Thing that I kind of think ties into, you know, with MD, in a way, though it’s not really Web MD, is that

00:50:34.500 –> 00:50:38.310
Google just bought Fitbit and I know with Apple

00:50:40.530 –> 00:50:41.670
And I know with Apple, you know,

00:50:41.820 –> 00:50:46.860
Apple just, you know, with their Apple Watch. They do the ECG stuff and they also now.

00:50:47.700 –> 00:50:55.860
Just released their research apps where you can submit all your data to Apple and just for general research because their goal. And Google has the same goal.

00:50:56.160 –> 00:51:07.050
They want to figure out, health, while it’s happening. And hopefully by wearing a device they can say, like, hey, you’re about to have a heart attack, you better, you know, are all signs are pointing to this better go to a doctor.

00:51:09.120 –> 00:51:13.740
And a little bit of me and there’s like, you know, it’s not right away, of course. But what if

00:51:14.940 –> 00:51:25.230
They can also affected like you went for a run and Google knew you and for running, you get back. And now you have an ad for Gatorade because hey you’re parched, or if you’re

00:51:26.190 –> 00:51:33.570
You know your heart rate is up and it’s nighttime. And, you know, pay. Here’s an ad for melatonin. Maybe you’re having trouble sleeping, because we can track you know

00:51:34.740 –> 00:51:41.160
It, it’s to me. It’s kind of open that up like not that Google is looking at it to be even. I think they are evil. I think they’re really looking to

00:51:41.700 –> 00:51:50.370
To figure out kind of health because anyone who can figure out house like that I think makes a ton of money. But Google is also known for advertising and

00:51:51.330 –> 00:52:03.150
Being able to to pull ads around your Fitbit I think would be an interesting dilemma. When it comes to privacy. I mean, hopefully, that there is privacy laws that prevent this, but

00:52:03.510 –> 00:52:15.300
I think there’s always ways to figure that out. And I think coming from the talking about stress doing everything like this. Like there’s going to be devices and there are devices that track all that and they profit.

00:52:15.780 –> 00:52:23.970
It depends on which letter of the alphabet has access to the data. Yeah, quite frankly, um, interestingly, I

00:52:25.470 –> 00:52:37.410
I won the lottery. Have we had big meetings that my boss and I both had to get somebody had to go to at the same exact time and one was in Mountain View and one was in Minnesota.

00:52:39.150 –> 00:52:41.010
And I won the Mountain View, visit

00:52:42.360 –> 00:52:47.400
Which was was really exciting. My boss had to go to Minnesota and

00:52:48.990 –> 00:52:58.770
I went with a team to the Google offices for this like SHOW AND TELL day between Google and Web MD, they like, did the Web MD cook cupcakes and everything.

00:52:59.280 –> 00:53:08.100
And they were showing us they had people coming in from the various letters of the alphabet to show us the various things that they were doing in the health space everything from the human genome tracking to

00:53:08.550 –> 00:53:13.740
And they wanted to like sell us Big Query and stuff like that before they rolled it out and stuff like that. But, um,

00:53:14.580 –> 00:53:25.620
You know, it was also exploring. Is there a way we could be working on like their image recognition and the symptom checker and like actually exploring. Could we work together in in ways to kind of build some of this information.

00:53:26.040 –> 00:53:34.680
Because at this point, um, you know, this is three, four years ago. But at that point, the CDC was actually using the symptom checker data to figure out flu outbreaks.

00:53:35.190 –> 00:53:45.570
Because we had faster data because people were plugging in their zip code as they were plugging in flu symptoms and then the CDC was able to go, oh, this is a code is having a flu outbreak.

00:53:47.160 –> 00:53:55.200
And and so it was that kind of real time information that we were talking about with them and quite frankly they had basically everything that you would have on a Fitbit

00:53:55.590 –> 00:54:07.380
On your Android device at that time. This is three, four years ago, they already had that anybody who had an Android phone. The same way that Google Health. I don’t have an Apple Watch, but I still have my steps in my phone whenever it my phone in my pocket.

00:54:08.700 –> 00:54:16.890
Um, and they had already cracked the code of figuring out, okay, this is a person walking on a sidewalk versus a bicycle versus a car.

00:54:17.370 –> 00:54:21.750
Based on where you were in the map on like GPS data.

00:54:22.560 –> 00:54:36.900
And your rate of speed, like, Oh, you’re on a scooter. We’re not going to count that as a step, they’ll actually be able to tell that based on your accelerometer and where you are, like, on the sidewalk or on the road. These are things that they could do years ago and so

00:54:38.010 –> 00:54:47.220
With Fitbit being monetized my feeling and and that data being available to be monetized. Really, it literally depends on where that that data can go

00:54:47.940 –> 00:55:00.210
Um, HIPAA as a privacy act and PII kind of information that can support that can protect this really honestly can’t protect you all that much. Um, it’s

00:55:01.500 –> 00:55:15.300
It can’t protect you from like ad retargeting and the reason why Web MD won’t do ad retargeting on the stuff that you look up is because it’s incredibly hot button.

00:55:16.920 –> 00:55:25.320
Because can you imagine like do I have an STD or. Am I pregnant. And then, you know, having those ads following you around. That’d be really, really awful.

00:55:26.880 –> 00:55:28.620
When you’re doing a presentation for a client.

00:55:28.950 –> 00:55:29.940
Right, right.

00:55:30.450 –> 00:55:32.010
Or if you’re 15 you know

00:55:32.940 –> 00:55:33.840
True to 15

00:55:36.480 –> 00:55:45.780
And so it’s just one of those like that’s a. It wasn’t that they couldn’t. It wasn’t that they legally, couldn’t it was that they wouldn’t because it was a bad idea.

00:55:47.850 –> 00:55:49.530
And so, um,

00:55:50.790 –> 00:56:01.710
I think Google already could do all of those things if they wanted to, um, and yes, they are absolutely trying to crack the nut. They’re doing a massive study with

00:56:03.450 –> 00:56:15.300
University of California in Berkeley, I think, um, where they have a clinic and they have like this lifetime study of people that they’ve taken every blood test known to man.

00:56:16.020 –> 00:56:23.850
And they go in and do these like massive physicals like all the tests that you like never run like that your doctor just doesn’t bother with unless you have a symptom.

00:56:24.510 –> 00:56:33.420
They run all of them. They also run all their DNA markers. They also run all of this stuff and then they watch and wait and see if they get sick.

00:56:34.500 –> 00:56:40.710
And then if there’s anything from that data that can actually be an earlier prediction of some sort of illness.

00:56:41.460 –> 00:56:58.080
Whether from the genetic side or from like you had a blood test that was off for this vitamin when you were 12 and now you have this, you know, and that kind of thing. And they’re using they’re attempting to use the big data concept to to manage human human health.

00:57:00.300 –> 00:57:02.940
Will they use it to gain financially.

00:57:04.260 –> 00:57:12.600
Oh yeah. Um, but I don’t think that’s a right away. I think that depends on who’s where the walls are and within the company.

00:57:14.370 –> 00:57:29.880
I’m looking at statistics in take this for what you will. I’m big data by 2020 is projected to be a $56 billion industry. And if you take that out by 2027

00:57:30.390 –> 00:57:48.030
It’s expected to almost double 100 and $3 billion. So like when you look at Google and you look at Amazon and and of course my Google Pixel just went off so Google’s listening to this, so they know what I’m doing. And I’m going to turn that off because that’s creepy.

00:57:51.060 –> 00:57:52.470
I don’t want any Amazon result.

00:57:53.340 –> 00:58:00.060
Every time I say seriously Siri was clicking on and I had to like turn off all of her microphone settings for that.

00:58:00.060 –> 00:58:17.880
So anyways, so Google being creepy that’s and it’s funny. It’s funny that that happened because that’s exactly what I’m worried about and I in. I don’t know if you guys feel this way but like everybody knows one of Google’s big internal credos is don’t be evil.

00:58:18.990 –> 00:58:19.590
And when I

00:58:19.770 –> 00:58:21.090
Don’t forget you.

00:58:21.150 –> 00:58:23.790
You are calling on the equal and opposite.

00:58:23.940 –> 00:58:25.350
Right. Right. And when I

00:58:26.190 –> 00:58:36.510
When I when I heard about this acquisition. The, the first thing I thought was they, I don’t know that they necessarily care about Fitbit as a company

00:58:36.900 –> 00:58:43.860
They just want their data. And it’s the same with with Facebook. It’s the same with Amazon is they go through the process of

00:58:44.310 –> 00:58:51.780
Consolidating and acquiring all these companies and it kind of just seems like an arms race between some of these big companies.

00:58:52.110 –> 00:58:57.330
To just acquire as many companies as they can. And I don’t know that they care about the companies.

00:58:57.810 –> 00:59:12.000
But because data is projected to be such a massive, massive industry, the one who holds all the data is the one who can dictate the terms of whatever whatever is going to be in the next

00:59:12.660 –> 00:59:24.960
10 years and I do feel like at some point, like because of the nature of Google Google’s of business and like you said earlier, they’re beholden to shareholders. So they’ve got to turn a profit.

00:59:25.260 –> 00:59:34.740
So You’re damn right, they’re going to use this data to their advantage in probably in some ways that are not in my opinion, probably entirely ethical

00:59:36.660 –> 00:59:37.650
guys feel about that.

00:59:38.550 –> 00:59:56.100
Well i mean the the trick with big data, um, has been up until recently, very recently, um, the trick has been that very few companies have had the bandwidth and the ability to do anything about it.

00:59:57.180 –> 01:00:08.100
It’s like they could collect all the data they wanted. But it was so much noise because how, how the hell were they going to parse it and understand it and do anything and and pull any learnings out of it.

01:00:09.120 –> 01:00:23.220
Google, Apple, Amazon are probably, you know, maybe, maybe, Microsoft, um, are the ones that I feel like have the capacity at this point to actually do something with their big data.

01:00:24.480 –> 01:00:31.620
Because you have to have both like the speed and the storage and the ability to actually now analyze it.

01:00:33.900 –> 01:00:42.150
And I feel like that. You’re right. They are just gathering their Scrooge McDuck in the gold in the house, you know, in the silo full of gold.

01:00:43.320 –> 01:00:49.500
Going, we don’t know what we’re going to do with it, but will swim in it for now and then figure it out later and. And yeah, I totally feel like that’s what they’re doing.

01:00:50.940 –> 01:00:57.360
I think that’s what’s happening with the echo in the pixels and all of that. Just and Siri, just having the microphones on all the time.

01:00:57.750 –> 01:01:11.850
Facebook is the only one that’s used his microphone data in a way that people are going, I just talked about that. Now there’s an ad EU and like it. They were just too transparent with it. Like they they literally were just too obvious. Everybody else is like just playing it. Cool.

01:01:14.040 –> 01:01:23.820
Yeah, and we are all the lobsters in the pot and all these companies are slowly raising the temperature and we’re all boil before we realize what’s happening exactly

01:01:24.540 –> 01:01:31.440
Oh, so let’s um let’s move out of the news to me last topic or to then kind of the deep dive.

01:01:32.130 –> 01:01:49.650
I also want to be respectful of respectful of time, but today we wanted to kind of deep dive into teaching Alicia, you have a passion for teaching. So I, I just wanted to dive into like what’s behind your love for teaching others teaching SEO, so on and so forth.

01:01:50.880 –> 01:02:11.610
Um, well, like I said earlier, I believe that the most important way to get buy in from other parts of the company from clients that have that are resistant to see sweets that are resistant to getting an allocation of resources is education.

01:02:13.320 –> 01:02:24.030
I think that teaching somebody in a way that is accessible to them and that matters to them that speaks their language is the number one way to get what you need to get done. Done.

01:02:25.440 –> 01:02:33.450
My boss at Web MD actually had a really good thing that he used to say, which was we don’t actually do any SEO. We just convinced everybody else to do it for us.

01:02:34.950 –> 01:02:43.950
Which is pretty accurate because we had like some control over page titles. But like we had to have editorial team right a thing. And then the doctors review it.

01:02:44.370 –> 01:02:56.430
And then, you know, we could like stare at it and go, Hey, can we change this word, but we didn’t really have a lot of control, all we had to all we had at our disposal was education and

01:02:57.510 –> 01:03:08.250
You know, buy in from the 200 people in the building with us. And, um, I find that that approach in the agency world actually really helps.

01:03:09.390 –> 01:03:14.580
Because by giving education buy in and success reports, what you get is

01:03:14.970 –> 01:03:23.010
People who are much more invested, you get clients that are going to renew you get like the you get those clients that even if the results don’t show up.

01:03:23.430 –> 01:03:26.340
They start seeing like the little wins, because they’re educated

01:03:26.790 –> 01:03:32.520
They start understanding that this is stuff going on below the surface because they’re educated if they understand the CTR hockey stick

01:03:32.820 –> 01:03:43.710
And what that graph looks like. And I go, yeah, SEO traffic is low because we’re ranking number nine. And we have a point 3% click Ctr. I get that. Here’s what it looks like when you move up the page.

01:03:45.000 –> 01:03:54.420
Know, and they understand what that hockey stick looks like when they really can get that, then they’re like, All right, let’s go for number seven. You know, like they get all in and that’s

01:03:54.690 –> 01:04:03.180
That buy in is what makes us move the needle. That’s where you get the resource allocation. That’s where you get the people taking you seriously when you go really seriously page to be matters, y’all.

01:04:04.620 –> 01:04:13.020
Um, one of the things that I found that helps the most is speaking in terms of metaphors.

01:04:14.970 –> 01:04:20.790
I honestly believe that a lot of the issues that come with SEO in our world.

01:04:22.080 –> 01:04:30.510
Is that people get stuck in the jargon and they don’t explain it in simple enough terms to make the other person actually understand they’re very

01:04:31.170 –> 01:04:41.220
Very concerned about sounding smart and being correct and not worried about the other person truly understanding which I were just were like my teaching hat comes in so much

01:04:43.050 –> 01:04:55.050
Because I prefer not to use the jargon, like you were, you were like, I don’t want to use EA t. And I was like, Yeah, exactly. I like I won’t use the at I’ll say the context of your site matters.

01:04:56.640 –> 01:05:04.380
And, and, like, I’ll take it all the way back to to like when you were in third grade, and you were learning from context clues. How to Understand a sentence.

01:05:04.710 –> 01:05:08.610
And you came across a big word. And then your mom’s like, figure it out and

01:05:09.270 –> 01:05:15.840
You know, like I take them to the third grade with that. And then I walk them through understanding context clues as a Google bot.

01:05:16.260 –> 01:05:27.990
And then I’m like, now understand good Googlebot you know with hummingbird they became like a a college freshman of understanding context clues and I was like a now they’re like smarter than us.

01:05:28.920 –> 01:05:38.370
So, so it’s the idea of contextual reality and then I’m talking in terms of context and not talking about you. I’m really talking about it.

01:05:38.910 –> 01:05:50.040
But I’m not using the jargon and I find that using that kind of teaching methodology tends to win people over and get them on board a hell of a lot faster. Um,

01:05:51.510 –> 01:05:56.400
Other stuff that I taught. One of the things that is really funny is my people at women D, the

01:05:57.240 –> 01:06:09.840
Metaphors and phrases that I’ve coined they thought were industry terms, so much so that they didn’t know when somebody else didn’t know it that that was like they were like, oh, clearly you have nothing. You know nothing about SEO.

01:06:10.650 –> 01:06:23.490
Because I made it up. I’m the editorial team at Web MD thought that keyword cannibalization as a term was Ag, so I called it sibling rivalry and told them to pick a favorite child.

01:06:24.750 –> 01:06:26.520
It’s the same thing.

01:06:28.710 –> 01:06:34.950
But they all thought sibling rivalry was totally, totally an SEO term like all over the world.

01:06:36.540 –> 01:06:45.270
And so it’s the same concept. I’m like, the kids are arguing in the backseat. You want one of them to be in the front seat. So, you know, shove the other one off into the ditch.

01:06:50.070 –> 01:06:56.130
And, and, like, it’s that concept of humor and like visual images where they’re like, okay, I’m going to pick a favorite child.

01:06:58.950 –> 01:06:59.700
Great analogy.

01:07:00.570 –> 01:07:06.840
And talking in those metaphors, is I find really really helpful.

01:07:08.070 –> 01:07:18.510
I use them constantly I’m one of the ones that the that I know a lot of my team is sick of hearing, but it works so well.

01:07:19.800 –> 01:07:24.780
Is I talk about 301 redirects are permanent address changes with the US Postal Service.

01:07:26.010 –> 01:07:37.440
And how, if you’ve moved around a lot, and done a lot of those through a lot of address changes with the Postal Service, you know that if you do too many and too fast to time, you lose bills and possibly checks.

01:07:38.910 –> 01:07:44.460
Like that the Postal Service doesn’t know how to find you, things don’t get forwarded to the right place. Every it’s mayhem.

01:07:45.060 –> 01:07:53.070
And so you want to do them with great care great deliberation and probably no more frequently than every six months and

01:07:53.910 –> 01:07:57.390
Comparing it to just an address change, which is what it is.

01:07:57.720 –> 01:08:07.890
But actually making it something that is real life that they can hold in their hands like you can actually hand somebody that you still US Postal Service envelope and go, this is the thing you’re doing with that 301 redirect.

01:08:08.580 –> 01:08:18.540
And if it’s a forum for it just means you moved in didn’t fill this out you know and and you can like really explain server hundred responses by Houston. This wasn’t stupid form from the post office.

01:08:20.250 –> 01:08:29.070
But it’s tangible and it’s something they can think about like they can think about bills and checks coming in, they can think about like they have this tangible relatable thing.

01:08:29.400 –> 01:08:33.420
They don’t care what the numbers mean. They care what the actual effect is

01:08:33.990 –> 01:08:46.920
And so that’s the kind of thing that I use when I’m doing client education as well as when I’m when I’m talking to C suite I use the same like I’m not talking down to a person. I’m just assuming they don’t give a shit what a three or one is

01:08:49.050 –> 01:08:50.430
They don’t care.

01:08:51.900 –> 01:08:57.480
They don’t care what acronym. I’m talking about. They just want to know what what they need to know

01:08:59.430 –> 01:09:09.300
So those are the kinds of metaphors that I really, I get into using and people laugh that I do it, but quite frankly, I find it is incredibly effective

01:09:11.130 –> 01:09:15.360
Because you have people who understand. Oh, we don’t want to do too many three ones will lose bills.

01:09:19.440 –> 01:09:30.120
Questions question. So there’s like, you know, we don’t learn this in college right SEO in general is not being taught in schools, maybe there’s a class or maybe there’s like some high level stuff but

01:09:30.660 –> 01:09:50.370
We’ve learned, like I’ve spent countless and endless nights learning trying adding stuff failing getting stuffed good at reading doing all this stuff to to get to where I’m at and been doing that for the last 10 to 15 years and doing that. And I have a ton of experience doing that.

01:09:51.390 –> 01:09:52.680
I mean, you feel there’s like

01:09:54.300 –> 01:10:01.680
An ethical responsibility for me to teach the lesson experience. I mean, I feel like I’ve learned a lot of it on my own.

01:10:02.130 –> 01:10:07.140
But in general, I mean, is there like that pay it forward mentality that would like

01:10:07.800 –> 01:10:14.310
I should be sitting down with more junior telling them everything teaching them everything I’ve learned in there. I was in the SEO world there’s

01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:23.520
Are some people who hold on to their knowledge and there’s tons of people who share it and and i think i do share a good bit about it. But I think there’s sometimes I’m just want to say

01:10:24.270 –> 01:10:31.290
Go, you know, hey, go build a website and then you’ll learn how to do a redirect or you’ll learn that something’s you know

01:10:31.770 –> 01:10:43.020
when something breaks, like you’re just not constantly having to call me even though I do like being in that position where people call me it’s like it’s a weird thing. But I was wondering, like, kind of what you feel about some of that.

01:10:43.980 –> 01:10:52.770
So, um, I’ve been exploring the idea of like creating a training program like doing kind of like an online training kind of community.

01:10:54.390 –> 01:11:00.750
And part of what I’ve explored with that is, what are the skills that an SEO really needs to know.

01:11:01.950 –> 01:11:06.840
I had a kind of an apprentice. We did an apprenticeship. He’s now a journeyman

01:11:08.520 –> 01:11:14.250
Is not yet a master, but he’s a journeyman he’s off traveling and doing his own thing with other masters, um,

01:11:14.910 –> 01:11:29.130
He and I talked a lot about what skills do you need to know. Yeah. You need to know how to use the tools you need to know which tools to use when and like the basics of what a client would expect. But the real key.

01:11:30.660 –> 01:11:33.000
Thing that I think

01:11:36.210 –> 01:11:52.290
Needs to be taught in school needs to be taught in college needs to be taught to our junior SEOs and honestly if I’m going to write a nonfiction book about SEO. This is going to be the topic, um, the concept is of information.

01:11:53.310 –> 01:12:15.270
validation and understanding and being able to to understand your source and to think skeptically and critically about it. Um, because what you just said was that you went off and you read a whole lot and you test it a whole lot and you tried a whole lot. And that’s how you learned it.

01:12:16.440 –> 01:12:23.130
Um, that is information validation selection and and critically thinking about it.

01:12:24.180 –> 01:12:44.340
What we have in the age of the Internet is an information overload. But it’s of all varying degrees of validity and value and usefulness and like we’ve got their SEO articles that people are still citing that are from 2008 and it’s like, Oh, honey. No.

01:12:46.230 –> 01:12:47.640
And the thing is is that

01:12:47.670 –> 01:12:48.210
Cut said

01:12:49.950 –> 01:12:50.550

01:12:51.810 –> 01:12:59.310
And so how do you, how do you assess that information and its validity, because it could be about a best practice, it could be

01:12:59.670 –> 01:13:08.730
Something that legitimately is still correct there are things from 2008 that like you know you should maybe have an old time first screen reader that is a couple of words long about that image.

01:13:08.940 –> 01:13:15.060
Like there are things that they were saying in 2008 that were not wrong. Matt Cutts still said stuff that wasn’t wrong.

01:13:15.360 –> 01:13:25.830
The problem is applying that critical thinking to. Okay. How is that different today. How does that matter to me. Where does that come in. I feel the same way about reading anything that comes out of Google’s mouth.

01:13:27.750 –> 01:13:32.250
Because there’s a layer of, okay, here’s the best practice. This is what they want. This is their desired state.

01:13:34.860 –> 01:13:43.380
How does that actually reflected in reality because they can say Page Speed really matters, but does Patriot really matter. I need to know myself.

01:13:45.240 –> 01:13:50.070
And how is that reflected in reality because they’re not saying where the money is.

01:13:51.900 –> 01:14:01.530
Because if you think about page speed as a factor and they want everybody on AMP. They want everybody to do this. They want everybody on that they want everybody on Google Cloud services so that you can have your page speed and eat it, too.

01:14:02.160 –> 01:14:06.930
The thing is, is that the money is in everybody’s data going on AMP.

01:14:08.610 –> 01:14:13.050
The money is in everybody hosting on Google because it’ll make their pages faster.

01:14:13.860 –> 01:14:29.490
The money is in all of these other things that is not necessarily PHP matters to users. Whoo. We’re not evil and being able to see through those layers and articulate those layers of

01:14:30.030 –> 01:14:39.900
Of reality. They’re not wrong PHP does matter users, there is no human being that’s ever gone GEE, I WISH THIS website were slower, but at the same time.

01:14:41.010 –> 01:14:50.280
You’ve got to read. You got to read between the lines that Google is a money making apparatus and this is capitalism and you know they’re going to make a buck somehow

01:14:51.000 –> 01:14:56.010
And so if if that’s and so it’s like okay so let’s follow that money wherever it goes so

01:14:57.000 –> 01:15:05.400
Understanding and being able to tell. Okay. Is this a trusted source of information that’s why one of my SEO interview questions is always, what do you read to stay up to date.

01:15:06.300 –> 01:15:13.260
What news. Do you read to stay up to date and SEO because if they tell me a website that I think is complete malarkey. I’m going to be like, hey,

01:15:15.570 –> 01:15:26.250
Or I’ll say, okay, why, why are you reading that website. What is it about that website that you find useful because they might be like, oh, it’s complete Malarkey but I read it for the comedy value like i mean

01:15:27.480 –> 01:15:29.550
It. There’s, there’s a lot of reasons why.

01:15:30.360 –> 01:15:36.660
Somebody might look at those things, or I read it because there’s black hat tips in all of the comments or whatever. I don’t know.

01:15:37.140 –> 01:15:45.450
Um, but the thing for me is it’s about information evaluation. And if you’re going to teach somebody anything that’s teaching a man to fish right they’re

01:15:46.350 –> 01:15:56.160
Teaching them to because we’re all skeptics every, every SEO that has like an old salty SEO that I know is skeptical and paranoid every last one of us.

01:15:59.010 –> 01:16:02.100
The older and salty or we are, the more skeptical and paranoid. We are

01:16:03.810 –> 01:16:05.460
We’re experienced, we are

01:16:11.520 –> 01:16:17.640
We are skeptical and paranoid and and i think that the worst SEO is a gullible SEO.

01:16:19.410 –> 01:16:36.300
And if you feel compelled to train a junior up. I feel like that is the skill to train them. That is the thing that is the thing to hand on to if you want to be Yoda. That’s what you give Luke because he’s gonna run off before you’re done training them anyway.

01:16:37.770 –> 01:16:46.860
Buddy and and the thing that my apprentice kept running into was, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know anything about that. I was like, I run into shit. I don’t know how to do every day you learn how to Google it.

01:16:48.090 –> 01:16:58.560
You learn how to look up 17 sources on that one topic and like do a complete brain dump and then go. Alright, this is how I’m going to test this. And that’s how you learn.

01:16:59.820 –> 01:17:00.480
So I think

01:17:00.540 –> 01:17:16.050
The, the overarching question still remains, you’re a person that has a lot of experience. Should you not, maybe not. Can you teach somebody else should you should you, is it worth your time.

01:17:16.950 –> 01:17:18.240
I think that depends on the person.

01:17:19.500 –> 01:17:22.980
I think it depends on the person, because I’m

01:17:25.560 –> 01:17:45.510
Are industry is so rife with weird complex battles and drama and so much of the like old stuff still getting sold and the snake oil still getting done. And I can’t tell you how many people go, oh I hired for somebody for SEO and I got really burned by it.

01:17:46.530 –> 01:17:50.040
I mean, I hear that daily and

01:17:51.090 –> 01:17:52.380
Is it our

01:17:53.970 –> 01:18:01.050
If we are passionate about this as a as a effort as a career as a vocation.

01:18:02.070 –> 01:18:10.230
Is it our calling and requirement to build others who are not shoddy snake oil salesman, you know,

01:18:11.610 –> 01:18:12.240

01:18:13.950 –> 01:18:23.550
I honestly believe that that’s a, that’s a personal question. Um, I personally was really burned out. I still am kind of burned out on SEO.

01:18:23.970 –> 01:18:37.560
And I find that teaching and training is a way for me to tap into a passion and be excited about it and feel like I’m doing good in the world. Instead of just get more Google visitors to this website like it’s

01:18:39.570 –> 01:18:41.070
It’s a way that gives me, meaning

01:18:42.120 –> 01:18:47.790
And I think that if it’s meaningful for you and it does give you meaning then. Absolutely. You should um

01:18:48.930 –> 01:18:50.160
Should everybody

01:18:51.780 –> 01:18:52.350
I mean,

01:18:56.670 –> 01:18:57.600
Probably not.

01:19:00.630 –> 01:19:01.770
I guess. Why would you say that

01:19:03.150 –> 01:19:03.690

01:19:07.830 –> 01:19:13.380
I mean, not everybody is going to be a good trainer teacher and they might teach

01:19:14.520 –> 01:19:18.480
Not wrong things but they might they might teach things that are

01:19:20.100 –> 01:19:21.630
The service to others.

01:19:23.190 –> 01:19:33.420
Um, I mean, not everybody set up to be a guru. You know that’s that’s the whole self proclaimed guru thing, isn’t it, I let me be your master like it’s ridiculous.

01:19:35.190 –> 01:19:40.380
Not everybody has that has those chops. Um, and, and to know what like

01:19:40.740 –> 01:19:48.180
Like I was saying, the difference between teaching a person to fish versus, you know, having them come back to me every time having this apprentice. That was sitting here every day.

01:19:48.780 –> 01:20:00.300
Um, I needed him to know it was okay not to know everything, and how to go find that out more than I needed him to know here’s the checklist to fill out for these 10 steps to do this thing.

01:20:02.430 –> 01:20:04.260
Um, and so

01:20:05.400 –> 01:20:20.190
It depends on where you are. I know that a lot of people really feel like they don’t want anybody else’s bad habits. So they want to like grow their own juniors from the start and be like, oh, I want this like fresh new mind to to mold. As I wish.

01:20:20.790 –> 01:20:29.970
Um, and that’s that is absolutely a valid way to go about things. Um, but I do find that you find blind spots in that

01:20:31.290 –> 01:20:37.950
Because that that new person doesn’t learn how to think in new ways without you. That’s why an apprentice has to go be a journeyman

01:20:38.070 –> 01:20:47.340
Often there, they might be your own blind spots. If you’re molding them to reflect who you are and you have blind spots. Well, if they’re going to have those lines spots as well. I have

01:20:48.540 –> 01:20:54.330
To use a Star Wars analogy because it kind of sounds like we’re talking about like six floors here but

01:20:56.790 –> 01:21:11.250
If you’re a paddle on and you’re looking at someone as your as your, your Yoda, your, your jet I trainer, how you know if you’re if you’re a person that you’re looking up to is completely full of crap.

01:21:12.240 –> 01:21:13.800
Is it a quiet gone or Apollo 13

01:21:13.920 –> 01:21:14.430
Right, right.

01:21:18.090 –> 01:21:18.690

01:21:20.280 –> 01:21:32.610
Yeah, well that comes down to that question of information. Information articulation and understanding, can you can you tell whether that person is completely full of crap or not.

01:21:35.310 –> 01:21:40.590
I’m a lot of people get sucked in by fake gurus all the time.

01:21:41.760 –> 01:21:42.450

01:21:43.500 –> 01:21:47.790
I honestly think that a junior SEO.

01:21:50.070 –> 01:22:02.190
The clearest way would be to talk to another master you know if if you’re talking to a colleague on chalk, talk to the OB one talk to the, you know, talk to you to talk to some of the other guys and see what’s going on. Um,

01:22:03.660 –> 01:22:05.940
And if they go, Oh, you’re studying with him. Hmm.

01:22:09.060 –> 01:22:18.480
You know, kind of crowdsource that information, but also I think understanding and and knowing how to look up that information for yourself and double checking it is really important.

01:22:20.010 –> 01:22:30.150
Yeah, I think I would I would tend to agree and I feel like I I’m giving you these questions as as playing devil’s advocate, I am one of those people that feel like

01:22:31.620 –> 01:22:34.980
The feel like we do as more experienced people have

01:22:36.030 –> 01:22:47.130
Maybe not an ethical responsibility, but some sort of responsibility to pay it forward, because there were people that felt responsible to pay it forward to me.

01:22:47.850 –> 01:22:58.410
early on in my career. So I think I’m, to some degree, always going to be trying to do that. But I also realize that not everybody’s passionate about that not everybody’s good at that.

01:22:59.190 –> 01:23:18.990
Not everybody wants to do that. I will say for myself. The in my career, more so than working with clients or any other thing, the area where I found the most fulfillment was when I was doing the the teaching and helping shape shape young minds, quote, unquote.

01:23:20.100 –> 01:23:27.810
Teaching them teaching them how to fish and even more happy for me was watching them then go out and fish and then

01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:39.780
Take what they started with me and branch off and develop it even further and then watching them start to teach other people how to fish like you have no idea how amazing for me.

01:23:40.860 –> 01:23:52.890
That felt like selfishly in not that i think i’m like super greater or anything, anything like that but it was for me, a real badge of honor to watch people that I

01:23:55.020 –> 01:23:59.490
helped to bring up helping to bring other people, other people up.

01:24:00.480 –> 01:24:08.280
But I will say that there there are people out there that are just, I remember early on in my career, there was

01:24:09.030 –> 01:24:14.760
A certain couple of people early on in my career I had created a blog that I call the agent SEO.

01:24:15.570 –> 01:24:29.610
As just kind of a way to well blogging was big at the time and I just, just like this podcast I had a creative itch and I wanted to get it out there. So I would post seo, seo content and they got so mad.

01:24:30.150 –> 01:24:36.630
At me for, quote unquote, sharing the industry trade trade secrets and I just never quite

01:24:37.320 –> 01:24:47.550
Understood. And these people were supposed to be my quote unquote teachers, and this was talking a lot about data. This was a data point for me that my teachers were

01:24:48.000 –> 01:24:56.550
Idiots completed, complete, complete and maybe they weren’t idiots. But like I just felt like they were off base. And for me that was a point

01:24:57.630 –> 01:25:00.930
A turning point for me in relation to my ability to

01:25:02.160 –> 01:25:09.750
To trust them, and I was never really able to trust them, but I also think, Okay, we’re thinking about this from the perspective of the people teaching

01:25:11.100 –> 01:25:21.480
In Jeff, you said an interesting. An interesting thing go build a website. I think that those folks coming up in the space have just as much responsibility.

01:25:22.080 –> 01:25:40.740
Like you said, Alicia to go out and validate and test and learn. They have just as much responsibility to go out and do that. And I have to admit, sometimes I don’t necessarily see the level of productivity that I would like with with the young folks coming up in the industry.

01:25:42.000 –> 01:25:46.140
Now that I’m one of the older folks, I would like to see more of that.

01:25:46.710 –> 01:25:49.980
Coming from folks that are that are new in the industry just

01:25:50.280 –> 01:26:01.950
You know, a curiosity or hey, I want to go try building a website just to just to break things just to see what will will happen and I fully realized that’s not for everybody, but I do think that as much as

01:26:02.400 –> 01:26:22.380
The experienced folks, the old guard has a responsibility to teach people, especially if you’re good at doing it the people coming up, have a responsibility to not just wait to be taught to go figure things out as much as possible, but that’s true.

01:26:23.700 –> 01:26:30.960
I agree with you that it is it is a. And that’s, you know, mythological studies going back to the to my grad degree.

01:26:31.890 –> 01:26:47.310
The guru relationship. The, the person who is the student does have that kind of responsibility, they have to go do their work in those real real situations, they, they have a lot more work to do, then, then the teacher does really

01:26:49.140 –> 01:27:01.110
You made me think of a thing that a manager said to me once, and this is way back in the bell South days and this manager took me aside and said,

01:27:02.520 –> 01:27:03.810
You have a lot of knowledge.

01:27:04.980 –> 01:27:05.640

01:27:06.780 –> 01:27:10.230
you’re mistaking that knowledge for power.

01:27:11.280 –> 01:27:13.800
But knowledge is only powerful when you share it.

01:27:17.370 –> 01:27:25.920
And that is kind of where I come from, on all of this is that knowledge is only powerful when I’m sharing it with other people.

01:27:27.750 –> 01:27:28.950
That’s actually a powerful statement.

01:27:32.910 –> 01:27:34.680
Awesome. Well, I mean, I think that’s

01:27:35.970 –> 01:27:40.800
Gonna be really careful of time because we’re pushing an hour and a half now. So

01:27:42.480 –> 01:27:43.710
Lots of editing homework.

01:27:43.740 –> 01:27:45.210
Yeah, no, it’s great and

01:27:45.960 –> 01:27:54.540
You know, I guess my final thoughts on that aspect was I really feel that I am willing to teach. But you have to be willing to learn and

01:27:55.350 –> 01:28:02.370
When you know some things are complicated, right, and doing any tips or coding or any types of tech I focus on technical side a lot. It’s

01:28:02.730 –> 01:28:17.640
It’s there are some people who just who always want to know it, but really don’t. There’s a lot of time. You got to put into doing it and it’s if I don’t feel that you’re 100% into it. I feel like I might be wasting my time and time is more, you know, valuable than than any of this. So,

01:28:18.660 –> 01:28:22.770
But I wanted to thank you for coming onto the show and I, you know, we’re gonna

01:28:23.880 –> 01:28:30.090
I don’t think we’re gonna have much editing. I think we have some really great content going on here and I’m hoping that the world gets listen to it all.

01:28:32.190 –> 01:28:34.530
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was it was a pleasure.

01:28:34.890 –> 01:28:36.030
A good way to start Friday.

01:28:37.260 –> 01:28:37.770

01:28:39.150 –> 01:28:40.470
Oh, bye everybody.

01:28:40.800 –> 01:28:42.870
All right. Thank you, guys. Bye.

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