Public Speaking

#34: Casie Gillette

Episode Summary

We talk with Casie Gillette, Sr. Director of Digital at KoMarketing. We discuss:
  • How she got her start in marketing working for an online dating site in the mid 2000s literally handing out flyers in clubs, which actually led to her first SEO job which is ultimately where she fell in love with it
  • How she got to KoMarketing, how she left and then boomeranged right back
  • In-house versus agency
  • Her biggest SEO challenges
  • Convincing clients to get recommendations implemented
  • How she learned to be a confident public speaker
  • The recent SEO’s are assholes kerfuffle
  • The importance of SEO training and education

And much more.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops here again with the Page 2 Podcast and I am joined by Mr. Jeff Louella. Jeff, how’s it going?

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Jeff Louella: Hey everybody. How you doing?

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Jacob Stoops: Good. Jeff you changed it up that time.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: We, it’s like, Hey, how are you, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: Hey, like out. What is it out Borland

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Jacob Stoops: And yeah, that’s funny. We’re getting better.

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Jeff Louella: You’re getting better. And now I’m trying to figure it out.

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Jacob Stoops: And we are also joined by Casie Gillette, how’s it going, Casie.

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Casie Gillette: Hey, howdy, I think you’re too old time reference might be overlooked.

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Casie Gillette: Cast. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, Jeff reminds of Al Borland

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, his

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Jacob Stoops: Side hobbies, and he’s do-gooder.

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Just like out

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Jacob Stoops: Um, so, Casie is the Senior Director of digital at KoMarketing and is really awesome guests. I’ve said this, I think, to a few guests. So I don’t want you to feel like you’re not at all special because you are special and

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Casie Gillette: You sound like my mother.

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Right.

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Jeff Louella: Very special

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Jacob Stoops: But know when we were setting out to when I was setting out over a year ago to do this podcast. And when we kind of sat down for for season two.

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Jacob Stoops: You are definitely on the on the list of people that we wanted to talk to in in there’s a there’s a massive like we basically want to talk to everybody in SEO, but but

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Casie Gillette: It does really, really making me feel good here.

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We’re definitely

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Casie Gillette: I made Season two. That’s exciting. Thank you for having me. Yes. You made it to season to

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Jeff Louella: Meet you in

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Jacob Stoops: Season Season one was entirely just me trying to figure figure stuff out live on the internet. So anyways,

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Casie Gillette: That’s our job. That’s our job is search marketers anyway.

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Jacob Stoops: Well, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s basically 25 hours of me just gabbing gabbing online and I decided to bring Jeff in to talk with me so

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Jeff Louella: Just for my intro

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah. So in terms of what we’re going to be

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Jacob Stoops: Covering today. So we’ve got a great agenda, first and foremost, we’re going to talk to. Casie about her background and then we are going to cover a little bit of SEO news, surprise, surprise, there was another kerfuffle in the industry.

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Jacob Stoops: Always industry seems to always have a kerfuffle probably once or twice a week.

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Jacob Stoops: That will talk about a little bit of drama and then at the end of the show. If anybody has stuck around to the end.

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Jacob Stoops: We’re going to talk about building a team and SEO training and how to go about that and the importance of doing that.

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Jacob Stoops: So definitely, definitely a great agenda today so Casie, the hallmark of the show, kind of like we’re superheroes is the the origin story of great SEOs and the the backgrounds, the trials. The tribulations. Um, so tell us about yourself. How did you get into SEO and just, who are you

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, loaded question. Um, you know, I was one of those people who didn’t know what SEO was we didn’t know what it was in 2005 I’d never heard of it. You know, I was out of college, I was bartending.

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Casie Gillette: thought, gosh, I guess I should probably get a job in marketing. My parents paid a lot of money for my college education.

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Casie Gillette: And a guy that I knew that that I had just met through the bar had approached me about this job in marketing. I was like okay well what it ended up being was. It was an online dating site.

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Casie Gillette: And but this is 2005 so like online dating wasn’t really a thing. And what we had to do was go out to clubs and hand out flyers for

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Casie Gillette: Dating site, which is awful. Right. That’s just an awful job but fast forward about six months I had stopped doing that, after

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Casie Gillette: Month, I think. And he reached back out and said, Hey, I have this job. We have another job doing SEO. Are you interested. And I said, I don’t know what that is but sure.

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Casie Gillette: And that was it. You know, I was so fortunate because the company that I ended up working for at the time was huge. They were about 150 people in it had people like Jenni Halas and Garrett French and Andy Beal

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Casie Gillette: These people in JP Sherman these people that you know

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Casie Gillette: As these you know industry thought leaders. Well, that’s where they also started out. So I had these amazing people to train me and to teach me. You know what SEO is and

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Casie Gillette: I think like most of us, I just fell in love, you know, you start doing it like, Wow, this is this is exciting and it changes and that’s cool. And, you know, here we are 1314 years later, whatever year it is. Now, I don’t know.

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Jacob Stoops: I hear that it’s going to be 2020

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Jacob Stoops: Oh, that’s

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Jacob Stoops: A new decade or still the same decade people

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: No, no, it’s tricky.

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Jacob Stoops: So how did you get to KoMarketing and not only then, how did you kind of climb the ladder to senior director

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, just run

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Casie Gillette: I had when I was down in Carolina. I was ready to move up, back, back up north. I was like, I gotta South here.

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Casie Gillette: So I applied to a job at KoMarketing actually and I just, I loved what I loved what they had to offer. Well, at the time, there were only three other people

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Casie Gillette: So I ended up moving up here. There were four of us in total just really small, which was so fun. You know, it was a whole new experience. I went from this big company to a very small company.

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Casie Gillette: And that was really exciting. Now that happened around 2009 2007 2008 right before the economy collapsed.

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Casie Gillette: And you know, we started to lose a lot of client, right, we just didn’t have a lot of business and I was approached to go in house.

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Casie Gillette: Start, you know, start an SEO team there help run the digital marketing team and so

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Casie Gillette: I went and did that for a couple years. And that was really cool. I never thought that I would want to go and house because

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Casie Gillette: You know when you’re on the agency side. It’s so fun right there. There’s all these different things always happening.

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Casie Gillette: But the opportunity was really great. You know, I got exposure to like running TV ads and radio ads, you know, building a social team building a community team so that stuff was really fun.

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Casie Gillette: But I stayed in touch with the marketing guys because they were so fantastic. In a few years into that they said, you know, do you want to come back.

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Casie Gillette: I don’t know. And, you know, Derek, who, who runs KoMarketing was like, well, moving the office downtown. I was like okay now I’m listening.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I live in the city. And I always had to drive out there and my whole dream of moving to Boston was I didn’t have to have a car and I didn’t have to drive. Anyway, so he was making my dream come true.

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Jacob Stoops: There it is.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, so I mean that’s, you know, I’ve kinda, you know, I’ve been at KoMarketing twice. Now, I’ve been back seven years. So a total of 10

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Casie Gillette: And you know, it’s just, it’s been fun to watch. It’s been fun to help grow the company, the guys who run it are fantastic. We have such great people on the team. We’re really meticulous about who we hire and how we hire and I think because of that we’ve been able to be successful.

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Jacob Stoops: So I’m going to apologize in advance because I’m, what I’m hearing is so you were at KoMarketing in then went in house somewhere and then back to KoMarketing.

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Casie Gillette: Correct.

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Jacob Stoops: Okay, because I was thinking I was like wait, you’re at KoMarketing, but you’re also in house.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, I’m very to I’m multitasking. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: OK, so the, it seems like the first time you were doing a lot of off offline TV and radio and and then a little dabbling in in the social space and

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Jacob Stoops: I guess what is so different outside of being downtown different this time in terms of like your role.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that was really exciting to me was I got to come in and build a team. And that’s honestly one of my absolute favorite things about my role about this industry.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I do a lot of speaking events. And the reason is, I love that part. Like I just love when someone comes up to you and says,

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Casie Gillette: I’ve never thought about this this way or like, Oh, this is so helpful or, you know, you write a blog posts and someone says,

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Casie Gillette: Oh, I use that and I sent it to my team like it makes you feel like, okay, I’m doing this for a reason.

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Casie Gillette: You know, there’s a rewarding element to it. And as part of coming back. My role here was to build a team who you know we got, I get to teach them SEO. I get to teach them marketing.

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Casie Gillette: And you get to watch them all grow up and become really good marketers and I love that. I think that’s really fun and exciting.

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Jacob Stoops: So have to ask always have to ask this comes up, like every episode, I’m in house or agency.

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Casie Gillette: So I am an agency girl.

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Casie Gillette: I do have to say like there are benefits of being in house one a lot easier. You know you you’ve talked to people who work at agencies I. In fact, I remember when I was coming back to the agency world and

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Casie Gillette: I know it’s like, well, how could she

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Casie Gillette: Like, why don’t you do with clients, but I don’t know like I don’t know about you guys, but I love the challenge, right. I feel like there’s always new challenges and like

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Casie Gillette: When you’re in house you’re only exposed to a minimal amount of things, whereas on the agency side, you know, I have 10 clients. And so I’m seeing all of these different situations.

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Casie Gillette: Just the learning element in the space. We have to keep up. You have to be constantly learning. And I think at the agency side, you get a little more exposure to that because you do have the different things. So for me, if agency, but I certainly understand why people like being in house.

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Jeff Louella: Do you ever feel that you can’t get everything you want to get done.

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Oh, yeah.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: We have a set amount of hours where, you know, not sure what that is but you know every

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Jeff Louella: Client is different, but

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Jeff Louella: They’re my I’ve always been an agency. I’ve never been in house and the one thing I always dreamed about was actually being able to just

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Jeff Louella: Sit there and like being internal meetings and hammer own like I have one client who’s blocking right now blocking Google

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Jeff Louella: And and they have been for the last six weeks and their dev teams like, well, we’re just trying to block acts like during the holidays, they’re blocking extra crawlers coming to the site because they’re so fragile.

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Jeff Louella: So sad.

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Jeff Louella: And I just wish I can be in those meetings every day and showing them and I do send reports as don’t know if it gets to the dev team because I’m working with marketing team and

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Jeff Louella: The thing. So sometimes I do dream about being in a house, but, um, but, as you said, like we have 10 different clients. So I just focus my time. Other places where I need it but

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, and I also found that, you know, working in house was cool because it’s like, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I’m just gonna go do it.

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Casie Gillette: And if you have that autonomy. That’s fantastic. But I was there for three years. And so, and thankfully I did have three different websites that I was working on. But like

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Casie Gillette: If you’re only working on, let’s say one website. And it’s not like a giant e com site. It’s just a, you know, maybe it’s a B2B site, whatever it is, like, there’s only so much you can do.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: There’s only so much for me. I started to get a little bored and it was nice because like I said I got exposure to these other things, but it can get a little enough. Yes.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I’m sure. I think like you, like you said, You’re an agency girl, I think, like, I don’t know what it, what it is, but I feel like it’s just

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Jacob Stoops: bred into your personality in terms of which side of the fence you you fall on

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Jacob Stoops: Some people tend to lean in house. Some people tend to lean agency for different reasons I’ve said many times I’ve been in both situations and

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Jacob Stoops: For whatever reason, I just tend to thrive more in the agency lifestyle as crazy as it is, it can get. Sometimes I’ve been in house, a couple of times. And each time I, I just, I really didn’t like it.

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Jacob Stoops: Made me. It was a function of just the particular opportunities and what was going on in house at the time.

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Jacob Stoops: But there have been times in my agency life where I’m I think just like Jeff like man, the grass looks really, really green, it would be great just to just to work on one web

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Jacob Stoops: All the time and do it really, really, really well. And then you get on the you get on the in house side and you’re like, Okay, I’m working on this.

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Jacob Stoops: And now what do I do with the rest of my time.

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Casie Gillette: Right, but

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Jacob Stoops: It is nice to be able to like have in developed close relationships with a lot of different stakeholders within the, within the company like it’s nice to

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Jacob Stoops: For example, in my last last role, I was able to just get up and walk two desks over and say, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: Aaron, who was a developer, like I’m trying to get this thing implemented, but like, I’m seeing this error and he would fix it on the spot and go okay great that’ll get pushed live tonight and stuff like that was

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Jacob Stoops: Invaluable. And not only that, but just walking down to to another floor to talk with one of the other teams.

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Jacob Stoops: And get an understanding because they handled customers directly and like working directly with them. I mean, there were a couple of times where we work directly with them to actually create pieces of content.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah subject matter.

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Casie Gillette: That’s like one of my favorite things I talked about that a lot is like when I was in house we talked to the customer support team every week.

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Casie Gillette: Right. And it was so awesome. Knowing here’s what people are asking for. Here’s what they can’t find like here’s what the second yeah so that there are those benefits. Yeah, but

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Jacob Stoops: Like I said, I just, I made for agency. I like the I like the challenge. I like the diversity and I feel as if

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Jacob Stoops: The competition with other agencies.

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Jacob Stoops: In addition to the competition with your clients and their competitors. Yeah, really.

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Jacob Stoops: Really drives me. I come from a sports background so I’m super competitive and not to say that if you don’t come from other backgrounds. You’re not competitive, but I feel like for me that’s

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Jacob Stoops: Plays plays into it. So like I i like to win. And for me, I can see is giving me the best chance to kind of

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Jacob Stoops: Scratch that competitive edge.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel.

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Jacob Stoops: So you do public speaking. What’s, what’s that look

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Casie Gillette: Like

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Casie Gillette: Well, no, it’s fun. Honestly, um, I don’t know. I don’t even remember how I got into it, or why, but I just know like once I was up there. I was like, oh yeah, this is for me.

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Casie Gillette: There’s just something to be said about

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Casie Gillette: You know, you’re being in front of your peers and having them listen. It makes you have to up your game. I never ever ever want to go to a conference and disappoint people

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Casie Gillette: And because of that, I think it’s really forced me to make sure that I’m talking about the right things. I’m learning the right things. I’m focused on the things I’m passionate about. I think that’s a huge one.

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Casie Gillette: When I first started speaking I talked about link building about a year into that. I was like, if I have to talk about link building one more time. I’m going to jump off the stage. Like, I can’t, I can’t talk about it anymore.

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Casie Gillette: But I needed to find something else that I was passionate about right and and also you have to find something that not everyone else is saying, although there’s a lot of it right

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Casie Gillette: That in the space, and I’m sure I’ve done it, too. But I just, I just love it. I love what the camaraderie of conferences.

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Casie Gillette: I will say that I have made some amazing friends through conferences that I go on vacation with now that I talked to you in real life that have become like close lifelong friends that are never would have gotten to do that without speaking. So it’s just fun. I just really like it.

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Jacob Stoops: Have you do you get nervous or you just one of those natural, natural because like I feel like it was

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Jacob Stoops: All a couple of couple of guests ago I can’t remember exactly who it was. Alicia or Leisha Anderson or Andrea Bergman, it was like, Nope, I just stepped right up there and it’s it’s easy.

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Casie Gillette: It’s nice. I get nervous. Yeah, there’s a moment not I’m not nervous like

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Casie Gillette: A day before I’m nervous for like that 20 minutes before, but the moment that I’m on the stage. It’s fine. Totally fine. Like the moment that I’m up there. Your adrenaline’s poverty, like, all right, I’m in

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Casie Gillette: And you can’t be nervous up there. So, but, yeah, there’s about I usually don’t eat before I can

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Casie Gillette: Just gotta go.

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Jacob Stoops: It. Go ahead, Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: I’ll just say I don’t speak a ton bone. I do. I usually start off with the dad joke.

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Jeff Louella: When the crowd. As soon as I get them the laugh. And I’m like, all right, I’m good. But, but if they don’t laugh. I’m like, Oh, no.

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Jeff Louella: Luckily I’m so good. They always

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Jeff Louella: Get the greatest dad. Exactly.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I have this I have this thing and it’s sometimes applies to speaking, but mostly singing in public, where

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Jacob Stoops: It’s literally like, like you said 20 minutes before I’m set to like go on and go on. It’s not like I sing in like these massive arenas or anything. My wife and I sing it a benefit concert every, every color. Yeah, yeah, it is cool.

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Jacob Stoops: But even as small as the as the venue is I have this thing where, when I go on for about the 20 minutes before and even sometimes as

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Jacob Stoops: As close to performing as literally like the song comes on and I’m about three seconds from having to open my mouth. Forget all the lyrics, they just go out of my head.

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Jacob Stoops: Really, yeah. Yeah, it’s like a complete blackout really like scary because like there are times when I’m standing out there. And all I’m thinking is not how well I need to sing more like what do I say

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Casie Gillette: What am I even thinking

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Jacob Stoops: What am I singing and then then the music comes on and I’m still I’m starting to panic. Now, like Panic, panic. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. And then finally,

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Jacob Stoops: I remember like it was yesterday. I opened my mouth words came out and they were the right words and I went along by I went along my merry way and

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Jacob Stoops: For anybody that has that kind of public phobia. The idea of public speaking can be nauseating like nauseating. So I guess what advice would you give to people that struggle with the idea of getting up in front of their peers.

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Casie Gillette: Well, what I was gonna say was, I mean what you just talked about is just the benefit of muscle memory, right, like we talked about practicing. I know there’s people who will say, like, you know, I don’t practice my presentations. I do.

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Casie Gillette: I run through them like you know me I don’t I try not to go, word for word, but like

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Casie Gillette: I run through that thing 20 times because I want to know that when I get out there that if something goes wrong, right, if I can’t see my slides. If there’s technical errors or whatever’s going on, you know, whether it’s fear or whatever that I still know my materials.

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Casie Gillette: But one of the things we do here is we start getting people like some of the trainings that we do involve people giving presentations.

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Casie Gillette: Because you’re only in front of maybe five people or 10 people or whatever it is you start small.

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Casie Gillette: I tell anyone you know who’s looking to get into public speaking. Look at a local event like I started just doing word camps that were here in Boston.

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Casie Gillette: Events like that, or just like local SEO meetups where you know people give you an opportunity new speakers, they’re expecting new speakers, where you don’t. They don’t care if you mess up, right. Those are the things that that for me, it’s like know your material and start small.

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Jeff Louella: You have done a couple when I used to live in Philadelphia and we had a pretty vibrant SEO Meetup group. They’re called SEO grill and

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Jeff Louella: I got to speak there a couple times and I do small events. A lot of times I used to run a homebrew club making beer.

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Jeff Louella: So I would I would do presentation. Yeah, you know, a it was funny when I decided to start a club. I was like, I don’t want to do work after work.

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Jeff Louella: And I enjoyed the air and me, my friends who started brewing were like, you know, we want to meet other people to do it. And then we started a club and then that grew to 300 people

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Jeff Louella: My guy, and it was insane. Like we were just at this one bar on the Tuesday night would just be packed to the gills.

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Jeff Louella: The guy would never have any traffic on the Tuesday night before, and so it was a good time. But from there. I learned a lot of just, again, if you know your material like if I talked about SEO or if I talked about home brewing, I can. I don’t need slides, I can just talk about it, but

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Jeff Louella: But yeah, when you’re in front of a bunch of people, it can be be scary. So, but where did you get from like

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Jeff Louella: The confidence. You know, you start off bartending. You’re saying, and then now 10 years later, you’re in stage, you know, Mosque on

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Jeff Louella: And then there’s many of us who’ve been doing SEO just as long. And, you know, haven’t gotten past the meetup groups.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, so

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Casie Gillette: Honestly, I again I’ve just been really lucky, like the support of the community, I would say. So even when I first started doing like I did an SMS show and it I

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Casie Gillette: One of the benefits. I was working in house right and I do think there’s a benefit when you’re in house that if you’re looking to speak, they’re more open to having you right

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Jeff Louella: Now big brand behind. Yes.

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Casie Gillette: Yep. And so that was really helpful. But at that show I met a couple people, you know, Elizabeth awesome Alaska who worked for third door for a long time. Greg Finn.

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Casie Gillette: There, people who just became my friends, but they also were these huge support systems. And so they were encouraging me to start writing for Search Engine Land. Right. So they got me doing that.

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Casie Gillette: You know, they would encourage they would help me with my pitches. Right. So I’ve just been really lucky I think in that the people that I have surrounded myself with or gotten to know have all been so supportive

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Casie Gillette: You know, even I was doing. I got invited to do search love one year in London.

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Casie Gillette: And a friend of mine, Aaron Friedman, who I had met through another show like we spent the night before our sessions just practicing with one another.

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Casie Gillette: And so, those kinds of things. Just, just really help. I don’t know. I’m not a shy person.

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Casie Gillette: I think that that makes the biggest difference is I know people in the industry will talk about, you know, I’m very introverted, or I’m very extroverted like I am an extrovert. I just very much am I enjoy being around people.

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Casie Gillette: I like conferences, I’d like being in crowds. So that part I think certainly helps because you know when you’re just out there just being loud, like I am. I don’t know if that helps or not, but

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Jacob Stoops: Funny. My wife is exactly like that, and I am. She is like the type of person that never met a person that she couldn’t talk to and like immediately make them like her, and be her friend and I am like, I’m a nice person, but I am

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Jacob Stoops: The opposite where like when I get into big crowds situations. It makes me like twitchy uncomfortable super uncomfortable.

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Jacob Stoops: Which is the yeah I then find it odd that I choose to do a

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Casie Gillette: Podcast right out there.

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Casie Gillette: Talking to people. I mean, I will say this, like, I don’t love I’ll be the first to say that I don’t love networking events like where you’re just with a whole bunch of strangers, but like

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Casie Gillette: I just like myself up for it. So you just, I just get mentally prepared and then you’re just you’re in, you know, I’m fine. Once I’m in it, but

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, I mean, it was tough moving like

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Jeff Louella: I know you. It seems like you’ve moved around a little bit, but I lived in Philadelphia for 42 years

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Jeff Louella: Wow started to move to Atlanta and pick up the family and move and it was really tough for my wife at first.

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Jeff Louella: But she is that type of person to you can put her in a room, she starts chatting with people and I think she’s actually impressed herself with how she can. She’s like 1000 friends now.

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Jeff Louella: And and the ones in there going, like I have a couple people. I kind of talk to you.

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Jeff Louella: I’m still I’m like texts with my friends back home, but it’s and she’s out every night, so it’s it’s interesting how

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Casie Gillette: I

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Jeff Louella: Put yourself in that position, and then you can like, get out there. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: You don’t it, Jeff, you’ll have a few more friends.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. That’s what the internet’s great

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Jacob Stoops: So Casie, what are some of the biggest challenges that you run into operating in the agency world.

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Casie Gillette: Um, I mean, I do think, you know, it just thinking about the team, you know, thinking about hiring. It’s so competitive right now, you know, especially, you know, we’re a smaller agency. There’s a little under 30 a few of like 30 of us.

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Casie Gillette: And when you’re trying to hire that like 123 years person. It is like just a battle.

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Casie Gillette: Axe and especially here in Boston, where there’s a ton of companies and a ton of tech companies and even just a ton of agencies, right.

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Casie Gillette: A lot of the big digital, you know, the big agencies, you have like digital us and you know those places who are now trying to get in the game, and they’re willing to pay a lot more

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Casie Gillette: To have those 123 years like I think hiring has certainly been a challenge. And we’ve been really lucky.

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Casie Gillette: Make our team is amazing. We’ve been able to get some really good people in, but then you have people who are constantly recruiting them away.

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Casie Gillette: So it’s like a battle. It’s like such a battle right now from that perspective.

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Casie Gillette: But then you have clients and you know to Geoff’s point earlier, there’s only so much time right there’s only so much time, you only have so many resources. I have a client right now that I adore. I love them to death.

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Casie Gillette: Unfortunately, when the search results changed in June with that big update. They weren’t penalized. But what happened was the search results themselves shifted so much

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Casie Gillette: That they went from being in you know the position one at the top of the page that didn’t have a lot of elements to now they’re

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Casie Gillette: In position to be ahead of them are now sponsored products and a map and the Knowledge Graph and people also asked box and so their traffic just tanked. And when you see that like

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Casie Gillette: It’s just gut wrenching because, you know, like I’m doing everything I can to help this client, but I can’t get them back there, right, like unless those search results change like I can’t get them back there.

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Casie Gillette: So that stuff is is just, it’s so challenging and frustrating because you have these clients that you love and you want to help them but

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Casie Gillette: Sometimes you just have to say like we have to change our, we have to change our strategy right and i mean like a complete one need to change our strategy. So I think that that’s a tough one.

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Jeff Louella: I mean it’s tougher all these days with Google putting so many other elements on the page. Besides that, besides just organic and it is surprising. Sometimes when I still do well. And there are other things on that page.

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Jeff Louella: But you know Google’s tracking all that, too. So they’re also going to be changing those features around a lot. Yeah. And I do

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Jeff Louella: You know, I think it’s really important to start spreading out into other mediums.

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Jeff Louella: Cuz you’re going to have video links are going to have image links and it’s like if we don’t optimize our images or maybe add videos like those are areas we can get to

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Jeff Louella: I think figuring out a track it all is another aspect. Um, but, but one of those is like there’s gonna be 10 listings above you, that are just not organic. And how do we get into those listings

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Casie Gillette: Right, and even, like, you know, for that same client. I mean,

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Casie Gillette: One of the first things we did. We’re like, All right, let’s get like FAQ schema on the site right like they have FAQs the search results are showing FAQs. Like, let’s get this up. Let’s test it. Let’s see what that can do so.

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Casie Gillette: We’re really trying everything we can think of here to help with that. But sometimes you know there’s there’s only so much that we can do. But yeah, I love your like, but like you have to diversify. Some people just don’t want to hear that, though.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, and it’s hard to diversify. Right. I mean, one reason when Jacob asked me to come on to the podcast was like something I always wanted to do, but I know it’s a lot of work to do it.

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Jeff Louella: And it’s like there’s a whole bunch of new algorithms. I got to learn because it’s like to get your, you know, a podcast even

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Jeff Louella: Show up like it’s learning right it’s like you on iTunes. We don’t show up yet. But there’s ones out there that haven’t been talked like having the three episodes and haven’t been uploaded in 10 years entered like number four.

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Jeff Louella: It’s like why so that’s not the that’s not Google. I feel like if it was Google. I don’t understand it but

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Exactly so. So

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Jacob Stoops: When people don’t want to hear it. How do you approach that because I feel like I’ve said it like 80 million times the implementation, especially on the agency side is our biggest problem and then

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Jacob Stoops: Changing hearts and hearts and minds and figuring out from a psychological perspective, what can you do or say to get people to kind of come around to your understanding of a situation or the reality of situation, how do you, how do you go about that.

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Casie Gillette: I mean, one thing that I take a lot of pride in. And that, you know, specifically here at KoMarketing is like we have really good relationships with our clients.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I have a client that I’ve worked with since I started here and she’s like her fifth organization and she just brings us with her everywhere she goes, it’s so awesome.

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Casie Gillette: But because of those relationships we are able to be very direct about it, right, like, one of the things that I really do pride myself in is

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Casie Gillette: I’m not. I’m never gonna lie to my clients right so like that example that I told you where search results shifted

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Casie Gillette: You know, I said like, look, we can keep trying to get back, we can keep trying to get back for this keyword all you want, but unless this changes.

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Casie Gillette: There’s nothing that we’re going to be able to do. But here’s the data that shows here are the other things that we can do right so

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Casie Gillette: In fact, one of the one of the girls who works here put together this sheet yesterday, this data set for this client that specifically looks at their competitors.

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Casie Gillette: We’ve been trying to get them to do a couple things.

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Casie Gillette: They’ve been a little bit hesitant to do it. She pulled all this data that’s competitive data search volume data like potential revenue data that now we take that and we present to them like here’s the actual financial impact of doing this.

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Casie Gillette: And I think that helps the one thing I always tell people I’m like just show them competition just show them their competitors.

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Casie Gillette: Like, especially when you’re talking to the C suite. If you show them like here’s what your competitors are doing. They absolutely are always like, Well, why aren’t we doing that.

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Casie Gillette: So I do think that helps is, you know, just just being honest and direct, you know, using the data you have, and, you know, if you can get buy in from from the upper level that that goes such a long way.

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Jacob Stoops: Do you find that they believe their data or the data that you provide them.

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Casie Gillette: I do it. But, you know, the one thing I do like is I think our clients are very smart. That’s actually something that’s changed that’s gone wrong.

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Jacob Stoops: Like I wanted to rewind that the

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Casie Gillette: The one thing that has definitely shifted over the past, you know, seven years, specifically for me being here is our contacts weren’t always

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Casie Gillette: Search savvy and now they are much more savvy when it comes to understanding SEO paid search, whatever it is. So our clients, not only they will question the data if it’s if it’s wrong, or if they have questions, but they understand it. And I think that is really, really helpful.

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Jacob Stoops: What do you think is led to that higher degree of understanding

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Casie Gillette: I mean, I think, just as the guy was so much more well known.

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Casie Gillette: Right. I mean, there’s still people who don’t necessarily know, but you know 10 years ago was like this little thing that maybe someone did. And it was such a niche. Whereas now, it’s a thing that they teach in college, which is amazing.

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Casie Gillette: But I think there’s just so much more awareness of it and people who who need to understand it.

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Jacob Stoops: You guys ever like I like even five years ago, I had never once on in like a traditional medium heard anybody like refer to SEO. So it was like the thing that I do for my living is like this super

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Jacob Stoops: Secret sort of thing to the to the public. And now, like I’m driving around done listening to in I’m in Columbus, so it’s 97 when the fan my sports radio and when you start to get the commercials in the ads there a company’s advertising SEO services. And I’m like,

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Jacob Stoops: Holy crap, this is becoming more mainstream whereas five years ago, like, no, you never saw it. I even today I’m ups. I’m upstairs and I’ve got a TV.

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Jacob Stoops: That can play I can play the YouTube and YouTube ad came on and it was for a digital marketing and SEO company. And I was like, well, about a year ago, I didn’t see much of that going that going on.

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Jacob Stoops: So you’re right it is becoming a little bit more, more.

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Casie Gillette: What we do it was on Jeopardy jeopardy. We’ve made it. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, one of my

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Jeff Louella: Favorite my favorite podcasts is a radio lab. And for the last two months or three months they they’ve been brought to you by wicks

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Jeff Louella: And all they’re talking about his mixes SEO capabilities.

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Jeff Louella: And I’m just like, oh, this is my favorite pocket. Like they their whole podcast is about like breaking things down. I wish they broke their average

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Jacob Stoops: Amy and knowing them, which just shelled out $25,000 to Marie Haines bolting like for winning the the wicks SEO contest and

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Jacob Stoops: Like

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Jacob Stoops: I was like holy shit if I didn’t know there were, there was 25 grand on the line, I would have been like, all right, I’m in. I let me let me get in there but

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Casie Gillette: I you know I appreciate it, that it goes to someone like her, though, who actually knows what she’s doing. Right. That, you know, I think she made a comment today, like, you know, she had eight people working on it for six months or something like

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Casie Gillette: But, you know, you see someone, it’s like okay this is a person that I know is smart. I know knows what they’re doing like better than some, you know, shady person.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, well, when they ran a competition. Last year I know with a Patrick stocks, he like it was it came down to between him and someone else and

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Jeff Louella: You know, there was a lot of shady stuff going on on on some of those people were being bought and and and that was part of the rules and he couldn’t buy links so i know i don’t think Patrick was I think the guy who won.

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Casie Gillette: The other guy did yeah and it’s

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Jeff Louella: So it is an interesting thing. I give wicks credit because SEO is love like that again, there were competitive so

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Casie Gillette: That they’re on it to

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Jeff Louella: Totally like if we’re not in it. We’re crap.

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Jacob Stoops: I couldn’t believe the size of the font, though, man. I was like,

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Jeff Louella: That

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Jacob Stoops: You’re serious about this 25 G’s. Cool, man. So Jeff,

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s move to the next segment. What’s in

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Jeff Louella: Right.

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s get to the drama.

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Jeff Louella: Yes, more Twitter drama. So there was a post by think I’m gonna probably announce it will just say, Holly cuz she what’s her name on there but

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Jacob Stoops: I think you’re

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Jeff Louella: Blocked yeah girl Ziploc

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: But she pretty much came out and was saying in the first two pages of Google never surface any personal blogs or personal websites anymore.

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Jeff Louella: And everything it’s worthwhile like a question, you look at

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Jeff Louella: You know, it’s just being optimized bunch of bunch of SEO assholes. And that was a word to use, and I thought it was awesome. But at the same time right there was like you know as SEO assholes were kind of going out and saying there was a lot of different post out there so

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Jeff Louella: I know someone like Joe Hall, kind of like some of us aren’t assholes. And we took the time to learn the algorithms and stuff. And I think there was a lot of battle going back and forth between

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Jeff Louella: Is someone who is not so familiar with SEO and if I could see you know like you type in

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Jeff Louella: Anything and not anything but anything that’s like a probably a broader keyword. You can have a major company show up for it.

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Jeff Louella: Especially if it’s like something you’re trying to sell you know if you’re typing in iPhone or something like that. Like, you’re going to get a big brand, whether it’s apple or BestBuy or somebody there. And yes, they all have SEOs working for them.

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Jeff Louella: But it was the outrage was kind of interesting with it, where I mean john mule Mueller posted about it like you want to know what people thought

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Jeff Louella: You know bills. Yet all the big name as you guys out there, Bill slough ski, um, you know, there was an interesting conversation. I don’t know what your take, was it on

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Jeff Louella: Jacob, but it was really interesting kind of post between it because I really feel that, yes, there’s big brands out there. I think I understand why there’s big brands out there. I don’t think it’s anything. It could be. It’s not shady. It’s a grower trying to optimize for that.

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Jeff Louella: I do feel like there are some bad SEOs out there and they probably are doing bad things. But overall, we’re all trying to make our clients site more for the customers.

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Jeff Louella: And that’s why Google showing them over other people and that’s kind of what I feel that’s going on but I get her pain.

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Jeff Louella: Why, she’s, she’s like, if you don’t know that. And you’re just a blogger and you wonder why your blogs loss efforts traffic or isn’t getting the traffic. It means like, of course, you’re just gonna blame the people who specialize in that so

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Casie Gillette: I mean, at the same time, though, if you’re just realizing, like you’re so behind

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Casie Gillette: That’s why you’re not showing up anymore. Right. I

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Jeff Louella: Mean

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Casie Gillette: This started changing how many years ago, I personally don’t have any patience for that so

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Casie Gillette: I just don’t like one. I try to stay out of the SEO dramas, just like again I just other things that I’d like to do

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Casie Gillette: And usually it’s just people I think sometimes people like to argue

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Casie Gillette: I do think in one of the things I do

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Casie Gillette: Love about the SEO space and the people in it is that people are very protective of it right and it goes back to what we were just talking about were five years ago, people maybe didn’t know as much about SEO as they did. So I do think people are very

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Casie Gillette: protective of the Community as a whole, protective of what we do because we’ve always had to be a little bit defensive about it because let’s be real, like when I started the ship were doing was not like well as shady. Right. You’re just buying links and

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Casie Gillette: And it worked. And it was awesome. And you know there are people who are still figuring out how to game the system and at the

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Casie Gillette: End of the day, like, yes, like we’re not personally. It’s not like I’m doing over here doing anything shady, but I am working really hard to innocence game that algorithm. Right. I want my client site there and so

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Casie Gillette: What does that mean, well, it means you have to have a brand presence and it means you need to have content and, you know, yeah, these personal blogs don’t necessarily have that. So maybe they shouldn’t show up.

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Casie Gillette: And what are you trying to show up for so

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Jeff Louella: I don’t know i just i and i can show them like I didn’t want to get into because I’m anti drama myself, but I can show her where there’s personal blogs meeting some of my clients that

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Are driving. Yes.

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Casie Gillette: And it goes to the it goes to the sense of diversification exactly what we were just talking about, you know, for people who maybe you don’t have a big brands like you need to be looking at, you know, social or whatever it is, or medium or these

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Casie Gillette: Other platforms where you can gain

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Casie Gillette: Visibility because, I mean, even for my clients. I’m like, look how much time you have left in Google here, right.

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Casie Gillette: Time is limited for alive. So, you know, whether you’re a blogger not have enough people to sell things to complain, but

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Jeff Louella: What I find interesting.

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Jacob Stoops: About this is like, just like you guys said there are certain queries like across some of my clients were like

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Jacob Stoops: Half of the results are product pages and half of the results are articles.

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Jacob Stoops: blog articles resource articles, things like that. And as an SEO. It’s like it’s really interesting to try to figure out what Google thinks the real intent is. Is it informational is it transactional

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Jacob Stoops: But I would say to like the first comment about how, like, okay, Google never almost never surfaces blogs and personal websites what and my Google Pixel is going up as I’m saying saying this, so I’m

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Jacob Stoops: Always listening Google

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Jacob Stoops: It’s let’s just actually in inaccurate and I’m for, you know, I hate to to rail on this particular person. I don’t know what search that they were doing, but like honestly the last place I worked like we grew our traffic in about a year by like 100% and almost all of it was like

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Jacob Stoops: A blog. Yeah. And that brought in a lot of business. So like, there’s that.

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Jacob Stoops: The second part of this is the, the kind of more kerfuffle were like, Okay, well, just because there are people online that that optimize things to show up. We’re, we’re all assholes. Well,

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Jacob Stoops: Now you something like I feel like there are some because there are two sides of the fence one on one side of the fence. You’ve got people

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Jacob Stoops: In I think rightfully so, defending the industry and the people in it as not all assholes. Okay. And that and that’s true. Like, we’re not all assholes. But there are some assholes. It’s just like other place on Earth. There are things in there. There are not assholes in any profession ever

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Casie Gillette: So, you know, there’s people that are in this industry that I like very much but they’re still assholes.

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Casie Gillette: Right, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: There’s, there’s even that. But then there are

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Jeff Louella: People on

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Jacob Stoops: The other side of the fence. And this is where I feel like for me in terms of my opinion because I believe that when

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Jacob Stoops: We’re all being generalized as assholes. We have a right to push back. But there are people on the other side of the fence and

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand it quite as much and I’m trying really hard that in one case like Tom Raynor who was a was a previous guest on the show and sometimes has

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Jacob Stoops: Some, some opinions on this, this type of stuff basically getting upset at the people for defending the industry and pushing back on on this type of stuff in there were other people saying, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: You’re missing the point. You’re missing the point. And I agree, like, okay, what what’s great about this country is that people are allowed to have

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Jacob Stoops: Opinions and there is freedom of speech and that’s awesome, but there’s not freedom from accountability. Right. You have the right to say whatever the hell you want

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Jacob Stoops: And so to other people. And you mentioned earlier that Twitter is great for our Twitter wouldn’t exist if people didn’t arch. You didn’t argue

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, absolutely. So anyways,

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Jeff Louella: Okay.

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Jacob Stoops: Anyway, so let’s so let’s move on. Let’s

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Casie Gillette: We can hang with us all day.

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s quickly. Let’s get into kind of the team building want to be respectful of time. So let’s jump into the team building component and deep dive on that really quickly. So, Casie. How do you build a good SEO team.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, so this was something that I was asking.

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Casie Gillette: You know, five years ago, six years ago, like I said, when I came back to KoMarketing. Um, there were probably about eight people eight or nine people that were here at the time and you know we were growing and I realized that once you hit that 10 to 12 mark.

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Casie Gillette: You need things like processes which like I hate my life just like God, like, all right, we need to do something like how do we actually make this scalable.

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Casie Gillette: And so I started talking to just different people in the industry about how they have grown their teams, you know, I was talking to will Scott

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Casie Gillette: Talking to Mike Arneson about like what they do for training and, you know, just thinking what these people were telling me I was like okay like

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Casie Gillette: What we actually have to do is, is give people the tools that that are going to make them successful but also you have to give them the process to lead them there. And I think that’s something that I struggled with a little bit

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Casie Gillette: Because I just don’t love having to tell people to do something a certain way because especially with search. There’s so many nuances, you know, and I see people who are like, Okay, well, you told me that I have to have 60 characters. And so I have 16 and I’m like, Oh, no.

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Casie Gillette: I just had

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Jacob Stoops: Somebody today asked me how important the little green bubble is in the Yoast SEO plugin.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s fine. So like you have to consider all that but I mean one of the things that that we realized is

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Casie Gillette: One. You just have to we start people slow

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Casie Gillette: But we also give them that you know we give them templates for things and we give them the tools they need and we give them the information they needed and

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Casie Gillette: You know, now we have managers who are helping and there’s people above them who are we’re guiding them through the process, especially people who they don’t have any experience with SEO. Right. They don’t know what it is. So I would also say the one thing that we have certainly changed.

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Casie Gillette: Is focusing on the user. And that’s one thing that I tell people the team now especially new people.

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Casie Gillette: When it comes to things like keywords is I always tell them like think about the user first. And that’s something that even that I feel like has changed.

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Casie Gillette: But you have to really think through all of the nuances that come with search and and that’s tricky, but I think when you’re building your team, you know, you learn it as you go. I’m still learning new things every day.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. It’s funny, I always tell

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Jeff Louella: There’s different everyone has different ways of doing things.

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Casie Gillette: Right.

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Jeff Louella: When it comes to the title tags. Like, I’m kind of the anti like pipe between like keyword pipe keyword pipe.

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Jeff Louella: And just I’d rather it read something better and. And at the end, it’s not even like I don’t like pipe client I like you know by client or something, some so read, you know, it’s like

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Jeff Louella: A new Nike sneakers. But, you know, from whoever and it’s

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Jeff Louella: And it just little things like that were getting people in brand new and SEO and they read a lot of articles you just end up seeing it, like, way more robotic than it needs to be. And

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And yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Jake’s working on a lot of training stuff where and our work and it’s kind of, it’s tough to get the full gamut of everything you do.

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Jeff Louella: In there, so we’re trying to build a slow kind of library of videos and that when someone new comes in, they can go through them.

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Casie Gillette: It’s a great idea.

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Jeff Louella: I think just the relationships between

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Jeff Louella: People senior people and junior people is where I think a lot of team building needs to come from. So

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, and I mean even thinking about

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Casie Gillette: Like, how are we starting them so like we don’t just immediately drop someone into like doing keyword research. For example,

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Casie Gillette: But what we might have them do is optimize a page which forces them to figure out like how do I find the right keywords and how do I make sure that

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Casie Gillette: I’m you know I’m whatever I’m changing still relates to the user. But it also forces them to go look at search result so

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Casie Gillette: You know, kind of easing them into all of the elements before saying like, all right, like I’m going to have you go do this, this full scope of keyword research or whatever it might be.

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Jacob Stoops: How do you when you’re bringing people into the team, right, there’s

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Jacob Stoops: Just like in sports, right, there’s, there’s the X’s and O’s. Right. But then there’s also an element that’s a little bit more on definable called chemistry right and fit.

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Jacob Stoops: Within the team structure. So when you’re bringing people in and it doesn’t just have to be intro people, it can be mid level and senior people

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Jacob Stoops: What are the characteristics of a person that you look for in terms of that person’s fit as you’re constructing your team. Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: We said, I mean as an organization, we sat down about two years ago.

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Casie Gillette: And it tried to answer that question because we were we, you know, we really wanted to take hiring, we really take it seriously because again we’re a small team. So the people that you’re hiring. You’re putting a lot of investment into that person.

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Casie Gillette: And what we figured out is the people that were looking for, they have to be self motivated. I think that’s the biggest thing is like, we don’t have time. I don’t have time to micromanage people and also who likes that. Like nobody

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Casie Gillette: Can nobody likes that. So you have to be an element of being self motivated and in this industry where things change, like we’re talking about, you need to go figure. You have to be curious. Right. You have to go figure out

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Casie Gillette: Well, I looked at the search result yesterday, and now I’m seeing something different, like why or like last week, my client was here and now they’re not why

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Casie Gillette: So I think between being self motivated and curious. Those are such like key elements for us in the desire to learn is a big one, a really big one. So I love when we interview someone

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Casie Gillette: Excuse. Excuse me. I love when we interview someone and they say,

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well I’ve been doing this but I’m really interested in this. So, you know, I went in took like the Google Analytics test because I wanted to learn about it right or

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Casie Gillette: I went and looked at HubSpot x because I wanted to learn about it. That’s the stuff that really intrigues me and I’m like, all right, this person, this person is going to be a good fit. So

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Jacob Stoops: Are there ever and I want to be. We’re running out of time so I’m squeezing squeezing questions. Are there ever people that check those boxes, but then come in and still are in a culture fit and how do you, I guess. How do you figure that

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Casie Gillette: We, we haven’t we haven’t had that honestly it we’ve been so lucky. I met. Oh.

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Casie Gillette: But we do like when the people come in, like, we’re very we work in an open office.

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Casie Gillette: Right. And I’m very just apparent like the questions that we ask are, you know, the questions I asked her what type of environment. Are you looking for. How do you like to be managed. How do you learn

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Casie Gillette: You know what, what is your, your dream job. What you know those questions, kind of, they can give you a lot of insights into that.

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Casie Gillette: But we also will have, like, it’s not just the leadership team who’s interviewing these people. We have their peers come in and talk to them.

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Casie Gillette: We have a, you know, middle managers come in and talk to them. So, you know, at the end, we’re all deciding does this person seem like a fit. And I think that helps

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Casie Gillette: Okay, we’ve had like one, maybe, maybe there’s like one

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Casie Gillette: So we’ve been lucky I guess.

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Jeff Louella: Awesome. So if you know you ain’t got a couple drinks and you’re talking to the bartender and the bartender says

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Jeff Louella: Hey, I want to follow the same steps that you did. I want to get into SEO. What kind of advice would you give them to go like come from, like, you know, bartender waitress or, you know,

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Jeff Louella: Any type of job into the SEO world.

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Casie Gillette: I tell people all the time. Start build a website.

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Casie Gillette: Even though they’re not showing up in search results.

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Casie Gillette: You know, start playing around with WordPress. I think WordPress is the easiest place to start.

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Casie Gillette: But just building your own site. I think that’s your best test environment you’re never going to learn more. That’s how, like, I didn’t know HTML. When I was coming out of school.

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Casie Gillette: I just started playing around with it. I started building my own websites. I’ve read like I got like HTML for dummies. I own I bought SEO for dummies.

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Casie Gillette: Me.

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Casie Gillette: You learn this stuff by doing it.

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Casie Gillette: And that’s never in that goes

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Casie Gillette: Back to the start of our conversation on being in an agency where you have these different places to play and explore and

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Casie Gillette: I would say just go and I tell the team here. Like if you want to learn. People are like, oh, I want to learn HTML, you can, it’s, it’s not really that hard.

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Casie Gillette: There’s plenty of places to do these things, but go start go start playing around and read. I mean, I read an hour every day. So every I pay attention to what’s what’s whether it’s on Twitter, whether it’s on my feed Lee feeds. I still read every single day to learn what else is new.

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Jacob Stoops: Reading is very, very important and underrated skill in this industry.

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Jacob Stoops: Well. Casie I’m know you’re running out of time and have a hard stop wanted to thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun. You can find me on twitter at Casie G. You can find me. I always say this, I’m LinkedIn. I’ve never on LinkedIn. Don’t find me there.

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Casie Gillette: Find me at KoMarketing com

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Jeff Louella: Cool, thank you so much.

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Jacob Stoops: For coming on and I know our audience will will love your episode. It was a great, great discussion.

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Casie Gillette: Well, thanks. It’s good to talk to you guys.

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Jacob Stoops: Thank you.

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To talk to you.

#31: Angela Bergmann

Episode Summary

In this episode, we’re chatting with Angela Bergmann, Senior SEO Strategist at Advance Local and fellow Ohioan! 

We talk about: 

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops again here with the Page 2 Podcast. How’s everybody doing?

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Angela Bergmann: Right, assuming everybody’s doing great.

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Jacob Stoops: We’re also here with Mr. Jeff, Louella

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Jeff Louella: Hey,

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Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I’m gonna need you to be a little bit more boisterous with your intro

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Jacob Stoops: Your two weeks out from me.

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Jacob Stoops: Forgetting

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Jacob Stoops: So like, I’m thinking you’re really coming into your own. So that’s one give me

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Jacob Stoops: More

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Jacob Stoops: Give me a little more

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Jeff Louella: Know, everybody.

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Jacob Stoops: Here we go.

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Jacob Stoops: And then we are

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Angela Bergmann: Here with

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Jacob Stoops: Angela Berkman. How are you doing, Angela.

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Angela Bergmann: Fantastic. How are you guys doing we’re doing

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Jacob Stoops: Awesome. Actually, I’m not doing awesome. I have to confess about 45 minutes ago. And I’m gonna I’m gonna deviate into a quick story. I got an email.

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Angela Bergmann: From GoDaddy.

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Angela Bergmann: Who I

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Jacob Stoops: Use for hosting. I don’t know why I use them and

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Jacob Stoops: I’m sure people will yell at me about that.

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Angela Bergmann: But

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Jacob Stoops: It’s just been who I’ve been using. And I’ve been too lazy to switch that I bought some new Linux hosting and I did not buy

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Jacob Stoops: 45

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Angela Bergmann: Minutes ago and

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Jacob Stoops: 45

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Jacob Stoops: Minutes ago so I

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Jacob Stoops: Just before we all jumped on had to call it GoDaddy customer service to

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Jacob Stoops: One cancel that order because I did not lie.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: And to figure out, like, who the hell hacked my account and

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Jacob Stoops: I came to find out that

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Jacob Stoops: One domain. I own. And I’m going to have to take care of it after we after we finished recording is actually now a Russian gambling websites. So it looks like

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Angela Bergmann: There’s been some Russian

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Jeff Louella: Again,

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, the account. The Russian

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Angela Bergmann: lessons are trying to get in and impersonate me

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Jacob Stoops: And in fact, seem to have called GoDaddy.

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Jacob Stoops: With my information and ordered

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Jacob Stoops: The hosting for, for whatever reason, so yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I

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Jacob Stoops: Had to reset my password.

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Jacob Stoops: That up some two factor authentication and

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Jacob Stoops: I’m coming into this

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Jacob Stoops: A little bit annoyed doesn’t know.

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Angela Bergmann: We all want to spend our Friday. Right, exactly.

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Jacob Stoops: Exactly dealing with Russian interference.

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Pollution

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Jacob Stoops: Anyways, so

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Jacob Stoops: Angela good authority.

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Jacob Stoops: That you are a senior

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Jacob Stoops: SEO strategist and advanced local and I’ll have you know that you are the first Ohio and that we’ve brought on and not to say that you’re the you’re the first native Ohio.

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Angela Bergmann: Some other folks in

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Jacob Stoops: Native to Ohio, but they don’t live there. Now, you’re the first one that actually still lives in Ohio and and in terms of proximity. I’m in Columbus, you’re, you’re the closest interviewee to me in terms of actual proximity so

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Angela Bergmann: Congratulations Ohio pride.

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Angela Bergmann: Yay so guys

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Jacob Stoops: I oh

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Angela Bergmann: That’s all I know.

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Angela Bergmann: And people and people who do not

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Jacob Stoops: Follow. Follow college football are going to have no idea what actually do not follow Ohio State or

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Jacob Stoops: No idea what just happened.

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Angela Bergmann: You play hang on sloopy and will be good. Exactly, exactly.

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So,

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Angela Bergmann: You are in

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Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember. Did you say you

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Jacob Stoops: Work in Akron and live in

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Jacob Stoops: Cleveland or live in Cleveland.

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Jacob Stoops: And work in Akron.

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Angela Bergmann: Upset I live in Akron, and I work in Cleveland. OK, so the

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Angela Bergmann: Branded up to

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Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Cool, I am I work in the land and I’m from where LeBron is from actually the same part of accurate. Even so, I have a lot of games pride.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. Brown of SEO.

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Jacob Stoops: You go to his, his high school

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Jacob Stoops: St. Vincent St.

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Angela Bergmann: No, actually I went to the school. He didn’t go to because he went to private school. Okay.

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Angela Bergmann: Okay. All right.

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Jacob Stoops: So,

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Jacob Stoops: I have to ask you before we get into your background on another tangent. Did you watch the Browns game last Thursday.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally. What

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Angela Bergmann: Happened. I’ve got

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Jacob Stoops: Like I feel like I’ve haven’t been able to talk to

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Jacob Stoops: anybody except maybe my

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Angela Bergmann: Basically just

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Jacob Stoops: Knowing about the whole situation.

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Like

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Jacob Stoops: What the hell happened like

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Jacob Stoops: What’s going on here with with our brownies and

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Jacob Stoops: Mr. Miles, yo.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s the it’s the we hate the Steelers so it’s already going to be a contentious game and then like I’m obviously mad at Garrett

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Angela Bergmann: Acting like an idiot. I’m sitting Rudolph from the head, but his helmet. Getting down the line, you know, open Joby shoving in not good.

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Angela Bergmann: You know, but like Rudolph not getting any punishment for escalating the fight is what makes me mad. And the other thing that makes me mad, is that I know that they’re escalating punishments for things, but like

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Angela Bergmann: Convicted wife leaders get a 16 suspension yep and Garrett getting an indefinite suspension for hitting a guy on the field during a fight that was escalated with a helmet. Yeah, use a little unfair.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s fun got

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Jacob Stoops: Kareem hunt on our team and we’re not fielding a team.

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Angela Bergmann: Full of choir boys. Yeah, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Eight games for reading a woman and

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Angela Bergmann: It.

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Jacob Stoops: hits a quarterback.

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Jacob Stoops: In his head with a helmet. Now granted, he could have killed him. So there is

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Angela Bergmann: Reacting with

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Angela Bergmann: Coca Cola.

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Jeff Louella: In depth. I saw him kicker.

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Angela Bergmann: Though yeah open Jovi like Patsy kicking him while he’s down and it’s not pounds. He got lucky that he didn’t actually really connect too much, but he was kicking. Yeah. Garrett while he was down in like none of them are choirboys without this is like this.

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Jacob Stoops: This all happened with eight seconds.

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Angela Bergmann: Left and to like put in perspective.

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Jacob Stoops: The long history that

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Angela Bergmann: We have as as as

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Jacob Stoops: browns fans honestly as as Cleveland fan South

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Angela Bergmann: Until the Cavs championship. A few

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Jacob Stoops: Years ago, being a Cleveland fan over the course of the last 30 or 40

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Angela Bergmann: Years 20 years

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Angela Bergmann: It’s been just complete

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Jacob Stoops: Misery and with the browns. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: You’re sick. First off, our team was taken.

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Jacob Stoops: Away then came back.

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Angela Bergmann: Garbage.

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Jacob Stoops: Since it came back. Yeah, they

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Jacob Stoops: Always

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Jacob Stoops: Find a way to disappoint us so like to really put it in perspective, this is the first

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Angela Bergmann: Factory sadness.

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Jacob Stoops: Are two rivals in the same season.

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Jacob Stoops: That being the Steelers and the Ravens.

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Angela Bergmann: And I was, I was on cloud nine. I was like, yes.

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Jacob Stoops: We didn’t just beat the Steelers

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Angela Bergmann: I’m sitting there going like this is great.

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Jacob Stoops: This is great.

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Jacob Stoops: And then with

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Angela Bergmann: Eight seconds left.

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Jacob Stoops: We see this kind of melee and like my heart sinks and I’m like, they couldn’t they couldn’t allow us as fans to get out of this game without disappointing us

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Jacob Stoops: One more, one

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Jacob Stoops: More time as a brown

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. For the other shoe to

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Jacob Stoops: Drop and like we’re gonna win the

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Jacob Stoops: Game and the other shoe isn’t going to drop and then Frank or

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Jacob Stoops: prompt me it was like, Nope. Nope.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s

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Jacob Stoops: just dropped in a big way in an embarrassingly Cleveland way so

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You

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Angela Bergmann: Have factory and stab this yeah it is the factory of

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Jacob Stoops: Sadness. So

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Jacob Stoops: The

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Jacob Stoops: The unimportant stuff.

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Angela Bergmann: Like important

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Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. Tell us about your

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Jacob Stoops: YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE DID.

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Angela Bergmann: You come from, who are

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Jacob Stoops: You

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Jacob Stoops: How did you get into SEO.

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Angela Bergmann: So I got into SEO through Twitter really in like 2007 so taking it all the way back. I decided when we got our first desktop computer, and like 2000 that

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Angela Bergmann: Websites look really cool. I want to learn how to do that. So I taught myself how to build websites I started doing like personal journaling, as it was back then. Like you buy a domain and you create a journal online.

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Angela Bergmann: Got into content management systems as they were coming around. So like gray matter be to movable type

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Angela Bergmann: Got into WordPress got very heavily into using WordPress and like the personal website scene because that was pretty popular with like teenage girls and like early 20s adult girls, creating just personal lifestyle type sites, what we essentially consider it now.

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Angela Bergmann: And I got super into social media because that was a big part of that scene.

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Angela Bergmann: I was, I was working retail like cashier and I was super into social media playing video games doing websites and

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Angela Bergmann: Guy that I followed on Twitter that we had a lot of music in common with like, hey, I see you’re really good at building like WordPress sites. You’re really good at social media. We need an intern at our marketing agency. Would you be interested. And I was like, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I interviewed started internship got hired in and they taught me SEO, and PPC and kind of like where to start learning more about it and how to like pick up on it.

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Angela Bergmann: And I just got super into it from there and just kind of took off and I i went back and forth for a while, between like web development and then digital marketing, but

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Angela Bergmann: I always really liked SEO and SEO is where I really love to be and that’s finally where I get to be kind of little time after spending time doing a little bit of everything.

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Jacob Stoops: So what brought you to advance local

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Angela Bergmann: So I wanted the the advanced local because I love doing agency work.

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Angela Bergmann: I know that’s not typical for a lot of SEO is a lot of SEOs that I run into like to be like the in house person doing the super deep dive.

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Angela Bergmann: Looking through logs that kind of stuff. Whereas I really like the fast paced nature of agency work and day to day. I don’t know what vertical I’ll be looking at

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Angela Bergmann: So you know I have clients that run the gamut from, you know, roofers to nonprofit foundations. So it really is everybody. And I love that.

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Jacob Stoops: So one question I have to ask them is, so you said you love agency work, you’re, you’re, I think, a rare, rare breed.

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Angela Bergmann: I also

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Jacob Stoops: Feel like I’m a better fit in agency, a I call an agency world because it’s just this crazy

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Jacob Stoops: Difficult monster of a

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Angela Bergmann: Stress

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Jacob Stoops: stress ball that I seem to thrive.

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Angela Bergmann: In, and I think that there are

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Angela Bergmann: Very few.

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Jacob Stoops: Lot of people working in what I call agency agency world.

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Jacob Stoops: Not everybody’s a good fit for it. Some people are a better fit for

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Angela Bergmann: In house so like

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Jacob Stoops: Aside from just it being fast paced. What I guess intrinsic qualities do you feel like you have that sort of lend you to that versus being on the House side.

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Angela Bergmann: So, and this is one of the things that I really look for when I’m when I’m hiring people for our team is I look for agency SEO, you have to have a desire to know something about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: Not even necessarily super in depth because when you’re on the agency side you’re for a long time, you’re usually a little bit more high level. I feel like

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Angela Bergmann: But you need to have a willingness to be knowledgeable about everything and have that desire to learn about things that have nothing to do with your personal life.

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Angela Bergmann: I know way more about Windows and any girl could ever want to know, but it’s because of my, my client is. And it’s not because I necessarily interested in it, but I consume knowledge.

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Jeff Louella: I know more about

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I think you take

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Angela Bergmann: Like, Oh man, I just, I really needed to know which window would be perfect, which vinyl window would be perfect for my, you know, turn of the century home yeah

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That’s right.

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Angela Bergmann: But you combine that with I think people that work really well on agency.

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Angela Bergmann: Are those people that like to procrastinate because we work better under pressure and agency is constant pressures. So we constantly have that stimulation that we feel like we need to produce our best work.

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Jacob Stoops: There.

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Angela Bergmann: There is

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Jacob Stoops: I do find that there’s more pressure working

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Angela Bergmann: In the agency environment.

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Jacob Stoops: And there’s more. There’s definitely more variability, you’re not working on the same thing every day, you’re not working in the same industry.

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Angela Bergmann: Every day, and

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Jacob Stoops: For me, that’s nice. I could see where for other people. That would be pretty obnoxious and there have been times in my career where I when I have gone to the in house side where that’s what I thought I wanted

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Jacob Stoops: In there are times where, like, I was pretty fulfilled doing that coming to work and working on the, the same thing every day. But something about the the

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Jacob Stoops: competitive nature. I feel like this is not to say that in house SEOs are not great, because there are many, many great in house SEOs but I feel like the amount of pressure to drive impact leads me to be better at my job. And I think that you get more creativity.

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Jacob Stoops: Out of that because people are constantly trying to think ahead trying to work ahead, trying to make sure in that short time time span that you have, which is usually

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Jacob Stoops: Three, six, or 12 months, your contract in which the you’re getting evaluated and people are deciding whether or not to pay you based on your performance. And a lot of times because implementation is really hard. You’re not getting your recommendations implemented until well

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Angela Bergmann: Into that contract. Yeah.

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I’m

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Jacob Stoops: Aggressive and that

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Jacob Stoops: Means you have to be. We have to be on the cutting

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Angela Bergmann: Edge and that’s

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Jacob Stoops: That’s where I like to. I like to live. I like to live dangerously

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, yeah, you get some you get some try. I feel like I guess a trial. A lot of fun thing because I have like that handful of clients that wants to be cutting edge. So they’re willing to pay to try the thing

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Jacob Stoops: What is the

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Jacob Stoops: area of expertise that you have, because you’ve worked on a particular client that is the furthest

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Angela Bergmann: Thing from your

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Jacob Stoops: Personality, or maybe the oddest thing for you. Besides windows.

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Angela Bergmann: So,

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Angela Bergmann: Probably um that’s so tough because I

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Angela Bergmann: I’m such a crazy knowledge person. I feel like everything is relevant to me because I want to know things about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: I probably autos, I’m not super into cars. I’m just not. But I’ve come up with some very creative ways to address SEO for automotive clients.

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Angela Bergmann: Because they have those inherent difficulties that come with like the content management and like inventory management system they’re locked into their page speed is always going to be terrible.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s a given they’re going to have technical things that we’re never going to be able to touch and there’s no point even reporting on it because they’re just, there’s no hope there.

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Angela Bergmann: So I have kind of work to figure out, like, what can we do that will make an effect and actually show some organic growth for them. Um,

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Angela Bergmann: Without

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Angela Bergmann: Having to get into the things that we would typically want to touch.

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Angela Bergmann: Jeff, you work on a

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Jacob Stoops: Pretty well known who will not be named here.

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Jacob Stoops: Automotive client.

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What are your thoughts about that.

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Jeff Louella: Well,

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Jeff Louella: That’s automotive parts, so it is what e commerce, but

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Some of those parts are so

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Jeff Louella: Specific

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Jeff Louella: And

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Jeff Louella: It is

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Jeff Louella: There’s a ton of competition out there. Right, so it’s it’s

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Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I’m, I’m always battling

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Angela Bergmann: That aspect of just like

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Jeff Louella: We have an oxygen sensor. It’s like

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Jeff Louella: I get every site has it out there. How do we

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Jeff Louella: Kind of get it out, but they are very

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Angela Bergmann: You know,

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Angela Bergmann: A lot of it is, but I’m

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Jeff Louella: Fighting is like kind of having

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Jeff Louella: Content like trying to build it up to where like your average consumers, looking at it. But the way that the automotive parts world works. It’s like by part numbers, most of the time. Right, so you

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Jeff Louella: Get number

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Jeff Louella: And it’s like,

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Jeff Louella: You’re optimizing for part number and more than someone’s looking for specific

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Jeff Louella: You know, general terms like brake pads or grades for me. He’s not a car person looking. But for someone who’s actually like at an auto shop. They need part, you know, ML or 973 and that comes up first.

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Jeff Louella: Yep. So it’s an interesting

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Jeff Louella: Mix there because every like more people search for Breitbart, then that bottle number, but that model number converts it like 90% while the other one converts at point 1% so it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. So how are we going to write content to target the actual conversion. Exactly.

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Angela Bergmann: So how do we beat out the other people who use the same exact model number is part of my issues. Yeah, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, I’ve done that, I, I’ve also worked with a lot of like

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Angela Bergmann: Manufacturers where their target audience is knows that they need the part that this place makes but they have no idea what it’s called. They just know that they need it.

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Angela Bergmann: Those are always fun.

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Angela Bergmann: Hoping engineers find engineer good time.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I have a like one

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Jeff Louella: Thing that I know way too much about besides wedding dresses that I’ve never do that. I would

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: Working in the agency world and it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: feeding tubes is one that I like.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah. This is especially them into

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Jeff Louella: Now, which is something that I like. I hope no one ever has to learn about but you know now that like there is a major

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Jeff Louella: concern out there when you do need it. So it’s like, how do we know

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Jeff Louella: It’s just weird marketing, things like that, because it’s just like something you expect your doctor. Just to give to you, but

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Jeff Louella: Our brands out there just like you see commercials on prescription TVs, like you get my arthritis medication or get my, you know, I had this where skin disease and you know there’s

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Jeff Louella: Only three drugs out there, but we need to be number one over those

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Jeff Louella: Three and and that’s kind of where I am with in the evening to world right now. It’s kind of interesting.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, no. And it’s true like medicals one of those verticals. That’s like personal and professional interest for me so I know way more about medical stuff than any one person probably others.

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Angela Bergmann: But yeah, there’s so many intricacies to it like is your target audience patients, is it caregivers, is it Doctor Is it manufacturers, distributors like

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Angela Bergmann: People don’t think about that side as well. Yeah, yeah. All of the above. So which different types of which different things, are we going to do to address each different audience. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: All one site that’s already

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Angela Bergmann: It’s like you’re

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Jeff Louella: You’re trying to get to the consumer, but doctors also and

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Angela Bergmann: Mostly the people at hospitals that are ordering

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Jeff Louella: You know, it’s like, those are the people who are actually buying because

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Jeff Louella: As a consumer, you’re not

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Angela Bergmann: Necessarily buying insurance for the most part.

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Jeff Louella: So it’s kind of getting them. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Exactly and

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Jeff Louella: And computers at hospitals to you.

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Jacob Stoops: Yep. So I don’t know if you guys know this but Columbus, Ohio is a hub for fashion retailers.

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Angela Bergmann: That you didn’t know

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Angela Bergmann: That going in. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria Secret

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Jacob Stoops: The Lunatic.

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Angela Bergmann: Lane Bryant.

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Angela Bergmann: Abercrombie and Fitch all

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Jacob Stoops: Based in Columbus, Ohio, which is crazy. And the reason I say that is because that is my weird really weird one.

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Jacob Stoops: So this

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Angela Bergmann: Is not recent like

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Angela Bergmann: I don’t know anything about fashion. I

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Jacob Stoops: Really don’t

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Jacob Stoops: I can barely get up.

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Jacob Stoops: Pick up my

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Angela Bergmann: Pick out my clothes.

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Jacob Stoops: In the morning, and usually like

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It’s just t shirt energy

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Jacob Stoops: So,

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Jacob Stoops: I’ve worked on a fashion retailer, not one of those that I named a couple of years ago in more than a couple. It was it was before I had a family. So my my oldest son is six years old.

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Jacob Stoops: So this predates predates him so it was before. I should have known anything about children’s clothing and

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Jacob Stoops: I was, I was working on a fashion site for young girls.

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Jacob Stoops: Which

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Like

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Angela Bergmann: Was so

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Jacob Stoops: Like for me as like

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Jacob Stoops: A young

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Jacob Stoops: Not even married at the time person without

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Jacob Stoops: Kids felt so

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Jacob Stoops: weird and creepy and I like

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Jacob Stoops: As I was working on. I was proud to be working on the brand but also I was like, I’m not going to show anybody my search history because if they saw it without

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Contact

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Angela Bergmann: Giant creep so

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Angela Bergmann: That’s my, that’s my weird one and

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Jacob Stoops: It was just, it wasn’t like anything.

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Angela Bergmann: Weird like

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria’s Secret lingerie or anything like that, or anything. It was just normal clothing.

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Jacob Stoops: Except, yes, girls.

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Angela Bergmann: And

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Jacob Stoops: With if somebody had looked at my computer without

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Angela Bergmann: Content.

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Angela Bergmann: And I was visiting that website.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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I think I would have had some questions.

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Angela Bergmann: People that like any if an SEO ever get arrested. Please don’t look at our search history really thinking about who we are as a person.

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Jacob Stoops: I wasn’t on purpose just looking at that site.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Angela Bergmann: For yeah

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You’re

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Jacob Stoops: So you did mention something when you were kind of talking about how you were

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Jacob Stoops: Coming up in the in the space Twitter. Twitter’s a big thing Twitter still a big thing for for the. So I would say Twitter is probably the best place to connect with other SEOs

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Jacob Stoops: More so than other

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Jacob Stoops: Newer mediums like Instagram or even Tick tock, or whatever. I think Twitter, even I think it’s like Facebook where it’s becoming maybe a little for the, the older generation when used to be the hip.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s, it’s definitely

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Angela Bergmann: Tick tock, but for right

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Jacob Stoops: Now it’s still the best place.

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Angela Bergmann: To

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Jacob Stoops: Communicate with other other SEOs so I do

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Jacob Stoops: find it interesting that you were able to connect and get a job through Twitter.

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Angela Bergmann: That’s pretty

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Angela Bergmann: Awesome. Yep.

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Jacob Stoops: You taught yourself WordPress. What was that like

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Angela Bergmann: No, it really just kind of weird because

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Angela Bergmann: It started with grey matter which was like a CGI based content management system and it just was so much easier than having to FTP into the site every day to like post something and then keeping that running log and and trying to keep all of these separate HTML pages organized

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Angela Bergmann: So it just really kind of morphed into, like, how can I do this easier and then just

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Angela Bergmann: It’s that I think that consumption for knowledge again come into play because it’s like, well, how do I figure this out. Why isn’t this working, what do I have to do to make this work. How do I make it look pretty.

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Angela Bergmann: And it just kind of went from there.

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Angela Bergmann: And because of that, like I got super involved in like the WordPress local WordPress community. I went to WordPress Meetup.

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Angela Bergmann: I hosted a word camp.

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Angela Bergmann: It really like between WordPress and like the digital marketing and social media is really just how I kind of built my career teaching myself these things and getting to be really good at a and

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Angela Bergmann: Being fairly good at sharing that

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Angela Bergmann: Experience and like knowledge with other people to try to explain things to them at a level that they could get it.

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Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s how I’ve gotten some of the jobs that I’ve gotten this because I’ve been able to answer questions and explain it in a way that people can understand

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Angela Bergmann: You had spoken.

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Jacob Stoops: At a lot of word camps all across the Midwest.

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Jacob Stoops: Honestly, like we

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Jacob Stoops: We do our diligence before so

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Angela Bergmann: And you’ve spoken several times at

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Jacob Stoops: Each of these are

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Angela Bergmann: Columbus.

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Jacob Stoops: In Canton end date Ann Arbor.

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Jacob Stoops: Michigan. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Baby to

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Jacob Stoops: Buffalo potato.

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Angela Bergmann: I guess I were an OSU had we were always, you have to always take pictures on were on U of M campus like in enemy territory.

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Angela Bergmann: Very important to do

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Jacob Stoops: Um, what

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Angela Bergmann: I think that one.

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Jacob Stoops: Of the questions I would also ask outside of the

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Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of questions that come up when you start talking teaching yourself natural

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Curiosity.

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Jacob Stoops: And now this is kind of getting into the public speaking realm but like I feel like these are all very important characteristics and we’d like to

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Jacob Stoops: Like to end the episodes, or at least we try sometimes we forget giving advice on like hey if you’re getting into the industry today like

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Jacob Stoops: What characteristics, should you look to follow or try to emulate in in other really great SEOs, and I think that like us. You have have shown and

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Jacob Stoops: I’m saying this because I came up in the same way I was a graphic designer who had no other choice but to teach myself web design, who then fell into SEO WordPress was a huge part of of my experience in in web design, but like

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Jacob Stoops: I think having that natural curiosity and I do see some people that

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Angela Bergmann: Come into the industry and

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Angela Bergmann: Like there’s

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Jacob Stoops: Not always the hunger there to want to dive into some of these complex problems and there’s not always the

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Jacob Stoops: The real desire to teach yourself one of the skills.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: How important do you feel

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Jacob Stoops: Like that part of it is when you’re kind of coming up.

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Angela Bergmann: I think it’s critical. I think that desire to learn everything and teach yourself everything you possibly can, is

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Angela Bergmann: The foundation of being a really good SEO because things are going to change. Google can make a change, tomorrow that rocks all of our world and we have to learn it right now. So if you’re not able to like pivot quickly and learn things kind of on the fly, you’re already at a doctrine.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: No matter what I asked anyone who I’ve ever talked to you, like, what did you go to school for it.

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Jeff Louella: It’s never SEO right

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Angela Bergmann: So it’s

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Jeff Louella: So I’ve worked with people who were

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Jeff Louella: Wanted to be a gym teacher, all the way to people like

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Jeff Louella: Journalism is a big one.

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Jeff Louella: And then

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Angela Bergmann: The big one.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, and journalism is

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Jeff Louella: Is great. I mean, the technical side is where they need to have the curiosity, but

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Jeff Louella: I’m probably the opposite where it’s like on the content side, I probably need

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Jeff Louella: A little more curiosity on wordplay and things like that because

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Jeff Louella: I’m coming from a technical background but yeah it’s it’s

397
00:28:29.550 –> 00:28:31.170
Jeff Louella: Having the curiosity in general.

398
00:28:31.170 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: And learning how to, you know, I always tell someone who’s new like build a WordPress site.

399
00:28:37.410 –> 00:28:38.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s just one because it’s, yeah.

400
00:28:38.790 –> 00:28:40.230
Angela Bergmann: There’s so much information out.

401
00:28:40.230 –> 00:28:45.210
Jeff Louella: There that you can’t, like, if I say build a craft CMS site right now or

402
00:28:45.240 –> 00:28:47.640
Jeff Louella: Go do with expression engine or go do

403
00:28:47.850 –> 00:28:49.140
Angela Bergmann: So high

404
00:28:49.260 –> 00:28:52.650
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we will type or, you know, I

405
00:28:53.280 –> 00:28:56.520
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those where it’s like there might not be as much out there WordPress, there’s this

406
00:28:56.610 –> 00:28:58.920
Angela Bergmann: Gigantic community. Yeah, that’s

407
00:28:59.130 –> 00:28:59.550
Angela Bergmann: And don’t

408
00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:04.320
Jeff Louella: Just go to WordPress com and pay you know or get a free site there like go

409
00:29:04.530 –> 00:29:08.700
Angela Bergmann: Now, Donald word download it and

410
00:29:13.080 –> 00:29:13.710
Angela Bergmann: All which is

411
00:29:13.800 –> 00:29:16.470
Jeff Louella: Which is fine for me now because I installed it but

412
00:29:17.010 –> 00:29:23.760
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like I use the One Button installed, but that’s because I installed thousands of patients on it.

413
00:29:24.810 –> 00:29:25.530
Angela Bergmann: So easy.

414
00:29:26.250 –> 00:29:28.410
Angela Bergmann: But at the same time, it’s like knowing like

415
00:29:28.470 –> 00:29:34.410
Jeff Louella: Okay, I got my config file up to what does the config file, it’s like okay, now it’s just like

416
00:29:34.440 –> 00:29:34.860
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I

417
00:29:35.100 –> 00:29:36.240
Jeff Louella: Get to my sequel database.

418
00:29:36.270 –> 00:29:37.680
Jeff Louella: What is that my sequel database.

419
00:29:37.680 –> 00:29:38.490
Jeff Louella: You know, and it’s just

420
00:29:39.750 –> 00:29:46.020
Angela Bergmann: That’s the kind of stuff, too, that when you when you’re learning it like so. I work for very large corporation.

421
00:29:47.370 –> 00:29:57.090
Angela Bergmann: I wanted access administrative level access on my laptop and they’re like why. And I was like, cuz I want to update my host file. And they were like, oh,

422
00:29:57.660 –> 00:30:09.180
Angela Bergmann: You know what, I’m like, yeah, I know what that is. I need to update it and like just having that knowledge has helped me be able to get access to the things that I need, because I know what it

423
00:30:10.350 –> 00:30:12.210
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s great. Yeah.

424
00:30:12.840 –> 00:30:14.490
Jeff Louella: So I have a little confession that I’ve

425
00:30:14.700 –> 00:30:15.750
Jeff Louella: Signed up for

426
00:30:15.900 –> 00:30:18.300
Angela Bergmann: Probably the last five years to go to WordPress.

427
00:30:18.630 –> 00:30:19.350
Jeff Louella: Or work camp.

428
00:30:19.890 –> 00:30:21.090
Jeff Louella: Paid and I never went

429
00:30:24.990 –> 00:30:27.330
Jeff Louella: I totally support it. I love the idea of it.

430
00:30:27.690 –> 00:30:32.040
Jeff Louella: I moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta. About three years ago, but at least

431
00:30:32.250 –> 00:30:34.230
Jeff Louella: Three years in Philadelphia. I paid and it’s

432
00:30:34.230 –> 00:30:35.790
Jeff Louella: Always sits on a weekend.

433
00:30:36.240 –> 00:30:37.200
Angela Bergmann: Which yeah

434
00:30:37.260 –> 00:30:38.520
Jeff Louella: Usually is good because

435
00:30:39.240 –> 00:30:41.070
Jeff Louella: I can go on a weekend. Like, it seems great

436
00:30:41.520 –> 00:30:49.680
Jeff Louella: But that’s usually family time and that’s where it goes. Like if you give me the Tuesday I feel like I’m working late today or it’s a substitute work for the conference.

437
00:30:50.070 –> 00:30:51.960
Angela Bergmann: But I think I paid for it every year and I

438
00:30:51.960 –> 00:31:02.700
Jeff Louella: Send in our Atlanta office now that I’m company on that every year. I said word camps coming sign up here and I always pay by my ticket because I support it. And then I usually never get

439
00:31:02.970 –> 00:31:04.290
Jeff Louella: Go, so I am

440
00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:05.610
Jeff Louella: Oh, you have

441
00:31:05.610 –> 00:31:06.090
Angela Bergmann: To go

442
00:31:06.120 –> 00:31:06.630
Angela Bergmann: I need

443
00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:07.200
Jeff Louella: I will go

444
00:31:09.120 –> 00:31:18.780
Angela Bergmann: I tell people all the time. I’m like, honestly, especially from the tech like SEO side like we’re cancer amazing i I’ve met some of the best people I know through that.

445
00:31:19.980 –> 00:31:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Actually when I was interviewing for this job. I was interviewing with john parka who’s the director of SEO still he’s on actually on our, on our enterprise side now.

446
00:31:31.140 –> 00:31:33.810
Angela Bergmann: But he helped start one of the word camps in Florida.

447
00:31:34.290 –> 00:31:45.120
Angela Bergmann: And he saw on my resume that I was on the committee for word camp North Canton, and then I was the chair for word camp Kent and word camp Northeast Ohio and then I spoke at all these word camp.

448
00:31:45.450 –> 00:31:50.160
Angela Bergmann: So that was like part of my interview process was talking about what I do work camp.

449
00:31:51.120 –> 00:31:59.250
Angela Bergmann: But like, I’ve met some of my best friends at this point through the word WordPress community. And that’s why, like I go to their camps and I talked and

450
00:31:59.700 –> 00:32:10.500
Angela Bergmann: I just made some wonderful connections. That’s great. I just looked it out, April 18 and 19th word camp Atlanta. I will be there. Mm hmm. And I know one of their organizers.

451
00:32:14.910 –> 00:32:25.110
Angela Bergmann: Yes, they’re always looking for speakers, they always especially on. I mean, just saying. Like I always talk nowadays about SEO or accessibility at them and

452
00:32:26.490 –> 00:32:32.340
Angela Bergmann: They’re highly attended people have wonderful question. They’re super engaged. I love it. That’s awesome.

453
00:32:33.780 –> 00:32:36.690
Jacob Stoops: Just how dare you prioritize your family.

454
00:32:37.260 –> 00:32:38.400
Angela Bergmann: Over WordPress and

455
00:32:40.110 –> 00:32:42.060
Jeff Louella: Ryan times I’ve just hung over from Friday.

456
00:32:42.060 –> 00:32:42.600
Jeff Louella: Night now.

457
00:32:48.300 –> 00:32:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Angela, what do you do it word camp.

458
00:32:52.200 –> 00:32:54.330
Angela Bergmann: So what do I do a word chill. Yeah.

459
00:32:55.140 –> 00:32:57.660
Jacob Stoops: You said that you said that just two seconds ago.

460
00:32:57.750 –> 00:33:00.030
Jacob Stoops: And I was like I was just gonna say, Well, what do you do

461
00:33:00.780 –> 00:33:12.960
Angela Bergmann: So now I said so now i don’t i just attend. Now, or I speak of them. Previously I was actually on the committee that actually helped around them, because they are nonprofit.

462
00:33:13.560 –> 00:33:18.480
Angela Bergmann: That’s how the tickets are so cheap everybody donate their time to help run the camp.

463
00:33:19.380 –> 00:33:34.350
Angela Bergmann: And you know, I started out just doing social media for it. So I was the one posting on social media, creating the website. And then I was the one. And I think the whole thing and getting sponsors and running it day of

464
00:33:36.540 –> 00:33:43.980
Angela Bergmann: Compared to some conferences word camps are super laid back jeans and a t shirt hang out with your friends.

465
00:33:44.550 –> 00:33:57.780
Angela Bergmann: If you’re in one of the sessions and it’s not really vibe in with you. You’re welcome to like get up and leave like it. It’s just a really like friendly open atmosphere. So it’s not it’s not too high pressure

466
00:33:59.100 –> 00:34:09.180
Angela Bergmann: But now. Uh, yeah, I just speak at the Now typically about SEO typically beginners level SEO so small businesses people that are just getting into marketing.

467
00:34:10.080 –> 00:34:23.820
Angela Bergmann: New College graduate, that kind of stuff. Just like you don’t don’t listen to the snake oil salesman that are going to be like, we’ll get you on number one. Don’t buy a link. Here’s the basic things you can do.

468
00:34:25.350 –> 00:34:30.300
Angela Bergmann: In the run up to getting an agency to help you. You just install used

469
00:34:32.370 –> 00:34:42.510
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like that’s one of the things that I actually go over as I’m like yeah install Yost ignore the green light. Um, you know, just write good content answer people’s questions.

470
00:34:44.460 –> 00:34:48.180
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s really what you need to do the plugins, not just going to

471
00:34:48.180 –> 00:34:49.650
Jacob Stoops: Magically, do the SEO.

472
00:34:49.980 –> 00:34:51.810
Angela Bergmann: Despite what some people think, yeah.

473
00:34:52.260 –> 00:34:54.150
Jacob Stoops: That’s exactly, exactly.

474
00:34:54.240 –> 00:34:57.600
Angela Bergmann: autopilot which is a and worms.

475
00:34:59.850 –> 00:35:01.350
Angela Bergmann: The public speaking angle.

476
00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:06.930
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of folks in our industry are either a doing it.

477
00:35:07.080 –> 00:35:07.800
Jacob Stoops: Or be

478
00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:20.250
Jacob Stoops: Thinking about doing it. What advice for those people who are thinking about doing it because you have done it so much. Would you give and kind of what types of things did you go through

479
00:35:22.230 –> 00:35:25.110
Jacob Stoops: before you got into it, or as you were early on in it.

480
00:35:27.360 –> 00:35:41.670
Angela Bergmann: So the number one thing I learned I actually learned from my husband. Um, he got finally got it through my head that just because something seems really easy for me doesn’t mean everybody else knows how to do it.

481
00:35:43.470 –> 00:35:54.360
Angela Bergmann: Because I’ve been doing this for so long. I don’t realize the level of things that I know and what seems really like basic common knowledge to me isn’t so common.

482
00:35:56.280 –> 00:36:08.250
Angela Bergmann: So even if it seems like something simple, there’s somebody out there that needs to know about it and wants to learn about it. And if it’s something you feel really confident about and you know a lot about pitch to talk about it.

483
00:36:10.200 –> 00:36:11.490
Angela Bergmann: Especially if you’re a woman.

484
00:36:14.340 –> 00:36:17.490
Jeff Louella: As an issue where it’s I feel that there’s so many

485
00:36:17.640 –> 00:36:18.750
Angela Bergmann: SEO conferences.

486
00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:21.060
Jeff Louella: Is somebody SEO blogs from the

487
00:36:21.060 –> 00:36:31.740
Jeff Louella: Sky News things that it’s I do have that issue where it’s like, oh, I talked about this, but like there’s a million people talking about it right now. And it’s like, what is is looking at what that

488
00:36:31.740 –> 00:36:33.000
Jeff Louella: Next Big Thing is out there.

489
00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:34.260
Jeff Louella: But in a way,

490
00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:36.690
Jeff Louella: The basics are still not like

491
00:36:36.990 –> 00:36:39.600
Jeff Louella: I’ve learned this my clients like some my basic like

492
00:36:40.080 –> 00:36:42.540
Jeff Louella: The basics are not being followed and

493
00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:44.940
Jeff Louella: You know, and internal education with

494
00:36:45.240 –> 00:36:46.770
Jeff Louella: My, my clients is where I

495
00:36:47.130 –> 00:36:48.270
Angela Bergmann: Love the focus on that.

496
00:36:49.140 –> 00:36:57.270
Jeff Louella: Though I sometimes feel like I’ve been doing this for a long time. I should be like teaching them all about like how to use machine learning to do better SEO.

497
00:36:57.990 –> 00:37:00.270
Jeff Louella: Not teaching you that like listen that right over.

498
00:37:00.270 –> 00:37:07.950
Jeff Louella: 65 characters on the title or or let’s add a title to our page because you know we forgot to do that, but it’s it’s

499
00:37:08.010 –> 00:37:20.850
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s the people forget like everybody still needs a reminder on the basics and like how the how the why the basics are still relevant. They feel like it’s a big thing. Yeah, anyway.

500
00:37:22.140 –> 00:37:27.510
Jeff Louella: This is a little bit basics and a little bit above right there is like that’s 90% of what we need to know and everything else is

501
00:37:27.510 –> 00:37:28.740
Angela Bergmann: sugar on top of it. So,

502
00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:30.060
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s

503
00:37:30.780 –> 00:37:33.810
Jacob Stoops: It’s a pretty rare situation. I’ve been an agency.

504
00:37:33.810 –> 00:37:50.280
Jacob Stoops: World for 90% of my career and there I can count probably on one hand, the amount of clients where their SEO strategy was so well developed that we only ever focused on really advanced stuff.

505
00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.890
Angela Bergmann: For the most part, when people

506
00:37:53.040 –> 00:37:58.980
Jacob Stoops: Have come to us. They’ve got like very basic, very fundamental problems very

507
00:37:59.340 –> 00:38:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Fundamental technical problems.

508
00:38:01.110 –> 00:38:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Or because they haven’t really ever thought of SEO or

509
00:38:04.650 –> 00:38:06.180
Jacob Stoops: Done keyword research, they don’t

510
00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:22.230
Jacob Stoops: Understand what their consumers are searching for where they should be showing up. So they had a lot of content gaps and we spend a lot of time in because SEO takes a long time because it takes a long time for implementation to occur. A lot of in most cases.

511
00:38:23.310 –> 00:38:25.890
Jacob Stoops: It can take years to get some of the

512
00:38:26.490 –> 00:38:27.210
Angela Bergmann: Stuff right

513
00:38:27.270 –> 00:38:35.310
Jacob Stoops: In finally in place, but the the weird juxtaposition in agency world is you don’t have years. So sometimes you’re

514
00:38:35.400 –> 00:38:37.800
Jacob Stoops: You’re really stuck between a rock and

515
00:38:38.280 –> 00:38:43.260
Jacob Stoops: A hard place. But yeah, I mean, most people come to us with basic, basic

516
00:38:44.520 –> 00:38:46.650
Jacob Stoops: basic needs, and we we

517
00:38:47.670 –> 00:38:57.090
Jacob Stoops: Are having to serve those needs, but then the flip side is on the public speaking in the conference side like I think sometimes I fall into the

518
00:38:58.290 –> 00:39:00.960
Jacob Stoops: The way of thinking like Jeff where it’s like

519
00:39:02.400 –> 00:39:17.850
Jacob Stoops: Everybody like nobody everybody I assume everybody who would be attending an SEO or WordPress conference would already know the basics. So like I i don’t pitch more because I’m like, well, what can I tell these people that they don’t already know.

520
00:39:18.150 –> 00:39:19.410
Jacob Stoops: And sometimes that’s the wrong way to

521
00:39:19.410 –> 00:39:20.460
Angela Bergmann: Think about it for sure.

522
00:39:20.910 –> 00:39:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I totally realized that’s the probably the the wrong.

523
00:39:24.210 –> 00:39:25.530
Angela Bergmann: Approach to take because

524
00:39:25.560 –> 00:39:33.930
Jacob Stoops: For every person in there that does know some of the basic stuff. There’s probably a new person in there that’s never heard any of it before so

525
00:39:34.470 –> 00:39:44.520
Angela Bergmann: Yeah. And you’ll notice that like even the SEO conferences, they’ll have a talk here and there. That’s like basically rehashing the basics and how and why it’s still relevant to today.

526
00:39:45.300 –> 00:39:46.800
Jacob Stoops: Did you ever have any like

527
00:39:46.800 –> 00:39:51.120
Jacob Stoops: Fears of getting up on stage and talking in front of a lot of people

528
00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:16.380
Angela Bergmann: Like I get. I get that nervousness of, like, what if I can’t answer. Somebody question. Um, but I am super outgoing and kinda like in your face. One of those types of people. So like getting up in front of a group was never a fear for me. You’re, you’re one of the lucky ones like

529
00:40:18.360 –> 00:40:18.930
Jacob Stoops: I have

530
00:40:19.350 –> 00:40:20.580
Jacob Stoops: A bit of a public

531
00:40:20.580 –> 00:40:39.330
Jacob Stoops: Speaking fear which I usually quickly get over but like I have a weird thing that happens to me when I, when I talk in public in most predominantly so I’ve, I don’t want to call myself a singer, but I’ve saying in public. Several times for like benefits and whatnot and

532
00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:41.670
Jacob Stoops: I have this thing, right.

533
00:40:41.670 –> 00:40:45.510
Jacob Stoops: Before I’m about to go on stage and

534
00:40:46.260 –> 00:40:47.250
Angela Bergmann: A couple of times.

535
00:40:47.280 –> 00:40:49.800
Jacob Stoops: Literally seconds before the words are supposed to come out of my

536
00:40:49.800 –> 00:40:50.970
Angela Bergmann: Mouth where

537
00:40:51.030 –> 00:40:52.290
Angela Bergmann: everything just goes blank.

538
00:40:52.380 –> 00:40:55.500
Jacob Stoops: And I forget all the words and literally

539
00:40:55.800 –> 00:40:57.180
Angela Bergmann: The words to me.

540
00:40:57.240 –> 00:40:59.070
Jacob Stoops: Until the second my mouth opens

541
00:40:59.250 –> 00:41:05.910
Jacob Stoops: And like you have no idea the amount of anxiety and stress and fear that that causes could

542
00:41:06.240 –> 00:41:08.190
Jacob Stoops: Could you imagine like being

543
00:41:08.220 –> 00:41:09.090
Angela Bergmann: Like the

544
00:41:09.150 –> 00:41:10.890
Jacob Stoops: Music is not stopping

545
00:41:12.180 –> 00:41:12.630
Jacob Stoops: You’re

546
00:41:12.660 –> 00:41:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Missing your cue because you forgot the what that’s like. That’s a real thing and like there have been times I feel like where I’ve been.

547
00:41:19.830 –> 00:41:21.000
Angela Bergmann: Getting in front of people.

548
00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:24.810
Jacob Stoops: That happens to me and and the light bulb just goes out.

549
00:41:25.170 –> 00:41:25.680
And

550
00:41:26.790 –> 00:41:30.690
Jacob Stoops: There’s a, there’s a certain amount of silence, where, like, it’s okay. But then like

551
00:41:30.900 –> 00:41:31.980
Angela Bergmann: As you’re trying to get

552
00:41:32.880 –> 00:41:34.920
Jacob Stoops: Your head and nobody knows that this is happening.

553
00:41:34.920 –> 00:41:36.300
Jacob Stoops: There’s a certain amount of silence.

554
00:41:36.300 –> 00:41:37.500
Angela Bergmann: That just awkward.

555
00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:50.190
Jacob Stoops: And like the lock on the more awkward. It gets and you’re inside like instead of thinking, what was I supposed to be singing. What was I supposed to be saying you’re thinking now, all these people are seeing me freak out.

556
00:41:50.820 –> 00:41:51.750
Say something.

557
00:41:54.690 –> 00:41:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Doing what it should be doing so.

558
00:41:56.100 –> 00:42:00.690
Jacob Stoops: Like, that’s my personal public public speaking fear.

559
00:42:01.110 –> 00:42:01.620
Angela Bergmann: Oh,

560
00:42:01.860 –> 00:42:02.790
Jacob Stoops: That’s a very real.

561
00:42:02.880 –> 00:42:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Thing I know other people have that

562
00:42:06.780 –> 00:42:19.290
Angela Bergmann: Here’s, here’s how I have that not happen and this always boggles people’s mind so you can go to like wordpress.tv and you can see like some of the recorded where Tim says Boca um

563
00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:36.480
Angela Bergmann: I knew a lot of people like put together presentations and they have like cards and they like no exact. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I get up there. Wow. I just have a deck. That’s like cuse me to talk about things and I just go

564
00:42:38.190 –> 00:42:38.820
Angela Bergmann: Oh, man.

565
00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:40.350
Jacob Stoops: You’re like a Jasmine.

566
00:42:43.590 –> 00:42:44.250
Every time

567
00:42:45.690 –> 00:42:51.390
Angela Bergmann: Because like I like to read the especially when I’m at work camps, because there. I know that a lot of these people are very new.

568
00:42:51.870 –> 00:43:05.070
Angela Bergmann: I can kind of read the room and see what kind of questions. I’m getting asked throughout the presentation and it might shift, what I’m going to say to it’s always slightly different but I always kind of end up with the same takeaways.

569
00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:10.320
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, I just get up there and talk. Remember, smooth again gigantic

570
00:43:10.470 –> 00:43:11.880
Jeff Louella: You know 500 person.

571
00:43:12.300 –> 00:43:12.720
Angela Bergmann: But

572
00:43:13.500 –> 00:43:18.630
Jeff Louella: I’ve done tons of smaller meetups like 3040 people in there.

573
00:43:18.630 –> 00:43:19.170
And

574
00:43:20.220 –> 00:43:25.830
Jeff Louella: Get I definitely like to feel out the room. I know kind of where I’m going with everything. But one question.

575
00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:27.000
Angela Bergmann: If I had a script.

576
00:43:27.060 –> 00:43:29.250
Jeff Louella: That I was going off of the one question through that script.

577
00:43:29.250 –> 00:43:32.820
Jeff Louella: Off, then I’d be like trying to rewind like Where was I add

578
00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.610
Angela Bergmann: I would think.

579
00:43:35.850 –> 00:43:37.140
Jeff Louella: I have been told, you know,

580
00:43:37.170 –> 00:43:40.770
Jeff Louella: We used to have like presentation training at different companies and

581
00:43:41.400 –> 00:43:43.200
Jeff Louella: Like they’re like stand in front of a mirror and

582
00:43:43.200 –> 00:43:44.730
Jeff Louella: Practice what you’re going to say.

583
00:43:45.210 –> 00:43:47.610
Jeff Louella: And I get it, if I’m doing a

584
00:43:47.610 –> 00:43:49.110
Angela Bergmann: keynote speech media or

585
00:43:49.110 –> 00:43:50.100
Jeff Louella: If I’m doing like

586
00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:52.680
Jeff Louella: Something. Yeah, I’d like to be very

587
00:43:54.090 –> 00:43:59.010
Jeff Louella: You know, given take with the audience, right. So it’s, again, I have my slides. We know we got an hour.

588
00:44:00.510 –> 00:44:03.600
Jeff Louella: There’s been many times where I’m on slide 16 we have 10 minutes left.

589
00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:04.560
Angela Bergmann: Right, and so it’s like

590
00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:06.870
Jeff Louella: Well, these things work. But if the audience gets what they want.

591
00:44:06.870 –> 00:44:17.850
Jeff Louella: Out of it like I I’m not there to make like my final slides, not like a mic drop. It’s like at that time. It’s like my my job would be like if you want more information you can talk. Let’s talk right here.

592
00:44:18.180 –> 00:44:19.440
Angela Bergmann: Compared to be after

593
00:44:23.550 –> 00:44:41.400
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in I’ve been in the situations because I do a lot of advocacy for nonprofit outside of just work where like those presentations have to be more structured, but even those I leave that wiggle room because I think that’s how it helps me get over that fear.

594
00:44:43.170 –> 00:44:44.580
Jacob Stoops: If you guys ever seen the movie old

595
00:44:44.580 –> 00:44:45.030
School

596
00:44:46.380 –> 00:44:46.950
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

597
00:44:47.130 –> 00:44:51.090
Angela Bergmann: No, you have Jeff and I have a question for you, Angela, but

598
00:44:52.470 –> 00:44:53.760
Angela Bergmann: I guess I should have phrased it the other

599
00:44:54.120 –> 00:44:54.990
Angela Bergmann: Way. Anyway, so

600
00:44:55.620 –> 00:44:56.310
Jacob Stoops: For those of you

601
00:44:56.790 –> 00:45:11.370
Jacob Stoops: Folks, they haven’t seen the movie. First off, it’s funny movie so you should go see it it’s it’s old older it’s from my generation, I guess. But I guess, which makes it a little old um there’s a scene in the movie.

602
00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:13.500
Jacob Stoops: Where Will Ferrell’s character.

603
00:45:13.950 –> 00:45:23.010
Jacob Stoops: Goes up for like a debate and they’re essentially debating as part of this competition to keep the charter for their fraternity.

604
00:45:23.970 –> 00:45:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Loose loose fraternity going so that they can keep their debauchery of a fraternity open and so they’re having this debate and it’s it’s this this massive thing with a moderator.

605
00:45:37.350 –> 00:45:46.530
Jacob Stoops: And the school president who does not want this fraternity to exist, kind of tries to rig it and he brings in famed political commentator James Carville

606
00:45:47.490 –> 00:45:54.570
Jacob Stoops: And then they asked this really, really hard question and James Carville is about to answer and Will Ferrell goes Excuse me.

607
00:45:54.990 –> 00:46:06.240
Jacob Stoops: I think I could take that one. James Carville is like have added hos and Will Ferrell its character proceeds to perfectly and succinctly answer the question.

608
00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:17.190
Jacob Stoops: And then immediately after everybody’s patting him on the back, and he just kind of like wakes up and goes anybody’s like what the, what the heck just happened I blacked out

609
00:46:18.660 –> 00:46:22.200
Jacob Stoops: And for me, when I’m public speaking. Sometimes

610
00:46:22.200 –> 00:46:22.950
Angela Bergmann: And or

611
00:46:23.010 –> 00:46:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Sometimes when I’m like

612
00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:32.460
Jacob Stoops: When I have material that I know and I’m very, very comfortable with. I feel like there have been times for me where that kind of happens

613
00:46:33.150 –> 00:46:33.510
Jacob Stoops: Where I’m

614
00:46:34.080 –> 00:46:35.280
Jacob Stoops: going with the flow.

615
00:46:35.340 –> 00:46:44.820
Jacob Stoops: And it’s almost like you can do it on autopilot. And I, it makes me sometimes, when that has happened to me think of that scene in that movie.

616
00:46:45.960 –> 00:46:59.580
Jacob Stoops: And in that’s in. That’s the version of me that is over my over my stress about public speaking and very comfortable with doing it and very much. Josh, I think with the with the audience. And I would say like

617
00:47:00.960 –> 00:47:15.150
Jacob Stoops: I’ve, I feel like I i personally come a long way, but for me it’s even still awkward because there is there is that element of it. So there are people that are just so not comfortable with it and I’m definitely one of those

618
00:47:15.570 –> 00:47:17.220
Jacob Stoops: People even still, even

619
00:47:17.250 –> 00:47:18.930
Angela Bergmann: My deep into my career.

620
00:47:20.490 –> 00:47:23.400
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, Jeff. What’s in the news.

621
00:47:25.020 –> 00:47:31.380
Jeff Louella: So the biggest news this week was Wall Street Journal released an article out that

622
00:47:32.580 –> 00:47:37.020
Jeff Louella: was titled How Google interferes with its search algorithms and changes your results.

623
00:47:37.770 –> 00:47:40.170
Angela Bergmann: And as a typical

624
00:47:40.170 –> 00:47:42.660
Jeff Louella: Fashion SEOs went nuts.

625
00:47:44.310 –> 00:47:55.590
Jeff Louella: And I would say semi right so um I guess like Wall Street Journal, you know, not necessarily necessarily known as like degree to source for SEO material.

626
00:47:56.850 –> 00:47:57.510
Jeff Louella: But they sent a

627
00:47:57.840 –> 00:48:03.630
Jeff Louella: Material. Yeah, that’s where I go first. You know, for my SEO stuff, but I always get their paywall block.

628
00:48:03.930 –> 00:48:06.360
Jeff Louella: So I will admit that I read.

629
00:48:07.380 –> 00:48:08.190
Jeff Louella: one paragraph.

630
00:48:08.280 –> 00:48:08.910
Jeff Louella: And then

631
00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:10.650
Jeff Louella: Boots because I did not pay for the

632
00:48:10.650 –> 00:48:11.280
Angela Bergmann: Wall Street Journal

633
00:48:11.730 –> 00:48:13.440
Jeff Louella: And I really think if

634
00:48:13.680 –> 00:48:15.600
Angela Bergmann: SEOs didn’t go crazy that article.

635
00:48:15.630 –> 00:48:17.100
Angela Bergmann: Know what even read it but

636
00:48:18.480 –> 00:48:20.430
Jeff Louella: Except, like, you know, businessman.

637
00:48:22.050 –> 00:48:27.450
Jeff Louella: But in general, you know, it’s like one of the big things that they interviewed over 100 different people for this. They said,

638
00:48:27.840 –> 00:48:37.050
Jeff Louella: And it’s interesting because I guess all who you interview and the way I look at it and how they probably got their information right it’s like I interviewed 100 SEOs okay I can

639
00:48:37.800 –> 00:48:45.660
Jeff Louella: I can interview a whole bunch of really great SEOs and then there’s all these link builders and spammers I can interview also. So, of course, and they conspiracy

640
00:48:45.660 –> 00:48:47.580
Angela Bergmann: Theories right so if

641
00:48:47.760 –> 00:48:49.440
Jeff Louella: I’m reading some of these, and I’m going

642
00:48:49.650 –> 00:48:51.060
Jeff Louella: Okay, that’s a conspiracy theory.

643
00:48:51.060 –> 00:48:52.590
Angela Bergmann: But the Wall Street Journal didn’t really do their

644
00:48:52.590 –> 00:48:53.490
Investigative

645
00:48:55.590 –> 00:48:57.240
Angela Bergmann: Actually access to that if they did.

646
00:48:57.300 –> 00:48:59.250
Jeff Louella: Like I know Glenn gave was misquoted on

647
00:48:59.250 –> 00:48:59.760
Jeff Louella: His

648
00:49:00.690 –> 00:49:02.640
Jeff Louella: But some of the things they were kind of saying is

649
00:49:03.330 –> 00:49:07.740
Jeff Louella: You know, Google makes algorithm changes the benefit and favorite big business.

650
00:49:08.730 –> 00:49:15.750
Jeff Louella: So that’s something people have been saying for a long time and but if you kind of understand algorithms, you look at it and saying like

651
00:49:16.590 –> 00:49:27.360
Jeff Louella: Do I want to order something from Amazon com or do I want to order something from the smallest like one guy who had one website, who has one product and gets

652
00:49:27.780 –> 00:49:28.920
Angela Bergmann: Totally trustworthy.

653
00:49:29.010 –> 00:49:29.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s totally

654
00:49:29.490 –> 00:49:31.740
Jeff Louella: Right, so there is a trust factor to this.

655
00:49:32.370 –> 00:49:34.470
Angela Bergmann: To me it wasn’t news, but I guess there’s some people

656
00:49:35.610 –> 00:49:39.930
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, there’s a trust factor and SEO. Yeah.

657
00:49:40.500 –> 00:49:44.460
Angela Bergmann: It’s part of the Shakespeare return eat what the

658
00:49:45.420 –> 00:49:47.940
Jeff Louella: Yeah. And if you read any of the guidelines, it seems

659
00:49:47.940 –> 00:49:50.460
Jeff Louella: Like, that’s part of it, right, then go for people who

660
00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:55.080
Angela Bergmann: Have like expertise and authority and trust so

661
00:49:56.520 –> 00:49:58.050
Jeff Louella: Another I guess was you

662
00:49:58.770 –> 00:50:01.590
Jacob Stoops: Know, we’re not moving past this yet, Jeff.

663
00:50:07.380 –> 00:50:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Seinfeld.

664
00:50:10.230 –> 00:50:15.750
Jacob Stoops: So Wall Street Journal. So they were they wrote an article about SEO. Okay.

665
00:50:16.980 –> 00:50:20.550
Jacob Stoops: They’re not an authority on SEO. So like on one side.

666
00:50:21.570 –> 00:50:31.200
Jacob Stoops: I’m thinking as a person who would have been interviewed well damn it would have been really cool to be approached by the Wall Street Journal to like

667
00:50:31.590 –> 00:50:32.040
Angela Bergmann: Have

668
00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:47.550
Jacob Stoops: What my thoughts but like the the cynic in me in in the person in me, who pays attention to things outside of the scope of SEO would think, well,

669
00:50:48.150 –> 00:50:59.550
Jacob Stoops: The Wall Street Journal is a media outlet and the reporter is probably being given a directive by their superiors and their leadership within the company.

670
00:51:00.030 –> 00:51:13.950
Jacob Stoops: That whatever they report it has to take a certain slant. So when things came out as being misquoted and being just probably factually wrong like

671
00:51:15.150 –> 00:51:20.820
Jacob Stoops: Given the environment today and I don’t want to, like, I want to bring in politics, but

672
00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:23.100
Angela Bergmann: Given the political environment that we

673
00:51:23.130 –> 00:51:24.420
Jacob Stoops: All live in today.

674
00:51:24.720 –> 00:51:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Where media outlets are slanted in one way or another with

675
00:51:29.640 –> 00:51:30.510
Angela Bergmann: Agendas

676
00:51:30.960 –> 00:51:40.020
Jacob Stoops: Should it have surprised. Anybody who was interviewed that they were misquoted and that this reporter found a way to push their agenda.

677
00:51:41.310 –> 00:51:51.840
Jacob Stoops: Pretty much, despite the evidence given by the people who were being quoted like. Does that surprise you guys that they took those quotes and slanted them the way that they wanted

678
00:51:53.850 –> 00:52:03.900
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know. So I’ve been. I’ve been interviewed for a couple of different media publications. I’ve been in USA Today. And I’ve been in Slate both

679
00:52:04.980 –> 00:52:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Her infertility related things and they both stories they they were really accurate for how they quoted me so I would probably be surprised, personally.

680
00:52:16.680 –> 00:52:25.560
Angela Bergmann: I think it would have more to do with finding out. So when I’m typically approached for something like that I typically want to know, like what’s the slant like what’s the endgame here.

681
00:52:26.040 –> 00:52:35.550
Angela Bergmann: Like what are, what is this what is the purpose because there is a purpose for the article. It’s being ready to find out what that is and see if it’s going to be in line with what you’re going to say.

682
00:52:37.440 –> 00:52:41.280
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we don’t want to have all this effort and time they say

683
00:52:42.330 –> 00:52:46.680
Jeff Louella: Oh, Google’s just, you know, not doing bad things, right, like the whole idea is you want to

684
00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:48.990
Jeff Louella: kind of try to expose them on it and

685
00:52:49.950 –> 00:53:01.530
Jeff Louella: It is I, I would be shocked a little bit right because out of all the news out there like if I was on Gawker, or Buzzfeed. Like, I expect them to maybe get things wrong. I don’t know why. Maybe, yeah.

686
00:53:01.590 –> 00:53:02.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s less

687
00:53:02.490 –> 00:53:03.690
Jeff Louella: But the Wall Street Journal

688
00:53:04.290 –> 00:53:19.920
Jeff Louella: Like there is this integrity with like big things right and there was a time where the, I think the New York Times explodes JC Penney for doing black hat SEO and I was kind of actually shocked that it’s New York Times exposing them doing it. I can’t like

689
00:53:20.040 –> 00:53:21.180
Jeff Louella: Oh, Wall Street Journal

690
00:53:22.110 –> 00:53:32.400
Jeff Louella: Same to me. Same level, not knowing. Like I don’t read it. I’m actually but in my head, same level of professionalism, we get things right and misquoting like if it was a little misquote great but

691
00:53:32.940 –> 00:53:41.250
Jeff Louella: Are not great but you know an understandable, but I mean, as I think when Gabe said like he was not even a he was off the record. He was not even

692
00:53:41.760 –> 00:53:50.760
Jeff Louella: Mentioned in the article, and then they mentioned them with a, you know, with our misquote or me up because he said he’d never said that. So to me that’s not misquoting that’s just making up a quote

693
00:53:51.420 –> 00:54:07.980
Jeff Louella: And it looks at that going like, oh, that’s not great. And then just the topics that were in there. I think are easily understandable by most easily understandable, but most SEOs won’t say it’s black magic and that people were back there, controlling it like

694
00:54:08.430 –> 00:54:10.470
Jeff Louella: Of course they have people looking at results and

695
00:54:10.500 –> 00:54:18.780
Jeff Louella: Altering algorithms based on that because they want to make sure, like we are getting what we want and as a as a customer or

696
00:54:18.810 –> 00:54:20.220
Angela Bergmann: You know, my wife who doesn’t get SEO.

697
00:54:20.640 –> 00:54:22.500
Jeff Louella: she’s getting what she wants. When she typed it in

698
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:23.970
Jeff Louella: Like you have to

699
00:54:24.000 –> 00:54:24.990
Angela Bergmann: Look at the results.

700
00:54:25.020 –> 00:54:26.670
Angela Bergmann: And then all term with what

701
00:54:26.790 –> 00:54:28.290
Jeff Louella: What is great and it’s like again.

702
00:54:28.680 –> 00:54:30.300
Jeff Louella: We have 17

703
00:54:30.840 –> 00:54:34.590
Jeff Louella: Sites that didn’t make sense to me or one that okay it’s Wikipedia.

704
00:54:35.100 –> 00:54:37.920
Jeff Louella: Into the biggest site out there for information like of course they’re

705
00:54:37.920 –> 00:54:38.700
Jeff Louella: Gonna be up there all the time.

706
00:54:40.230 –> 00:54:44.190
Angela Bergmann: That’s the thing that like boggles my mind will articles like this where it’s like

707
00:54:44.790 –> 00:54:57.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, Google, the business, obviously they’re in it. They’re making money at the end of the day, though they only make money if they give people what they’re looking for. So that’s still their end goal their end goal still to give the consumer what they want.

708
00:54:58.860 –> 00:54:59.130
Angela Bergmann: And

709
00:55:00.600 –> 00:55:00.930
Angela Bergmann: It’s

710
00:55:00.960 –> 00:55:01.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s funny, like

711
00:55:03.210 –> 00:55:06.600
Jacob Stoops: Google is the reason I have a job, but then

712
00:55:06.720 –> 00:55:08.400
Angela Bergmann: There are a lot of times where I think

713
00:55:08.400 –> 00:55:09.840
Angela Bergmann: Google is

714
00:55:09.960 –> 00:55:12.090
Jacob Stoops: Evil sometimes. Yeah.

715
00:55:13.200 –> 00:55:14.790
Thank you a lot of things.

716
00:55:17.520 –> 00:55:18.840
Jacob Stoops: They say for users.

717
00:55:18.960 –> 00:55:25.350
Jacob Stoops: But really like a lot of stuff is to enrich the folks within the company and to affect

718
00:55:25.440 –> 00:55:25.980
Angela Bergmann: Oh, yeah.

719
00:55:26.790 –> 00:55:32.160
Angela Bergmann: And their shareholders and things, things of that nature. I actually don’t believe that this

720
00:55:32.160 –> 00:55:47.430
Jacob Stoops: Story is one of those things that I think it’s supposed to indict Google and I think maybe the average person who doesn’t do what we do will read it and think, what the hell’s going on at Google and will think that they’re the evil empire.

721
00:55:47.460 –> 00:55:50.760
Angela Bergmann: I think for the folks. Yeah, interviewed and for the folks

722
00:55:50.760 –> 00:55:59.340
Jacob Stoops: Inside the industry like I don’t take this article so seriously because I think that the way it’s being slanted is just

723
00:56:00.810 –> 00:56:04.650
Jacob Stoops: If stating things that aren’t a problem like they are a problem.

724
00:56:05.310 –> 00:56:06.570
Jacob Stoops: And I think the other side of

725
00:56:06.570 –> 00:56:07.740
Jacob Stoops: This is if I were one of the

726
00:56:07.740 –> 00:56:09.000
Jacob Stoops: People that got interviewed

727
00:56:10.080 –> 00:56:24.480
Jacob Stoops: I think what I was trying to say earlier is like, I don’t. I think they were being naive to think that a publication like this in in Jeff when that JC Penney thing happened. I feel like that’s more than 10 years ago the climate.

728
00:56:24.750 –> 00:56:27.330
Jacob Stoops: With media in that 10 years

729
00:56:27.660 –> 00:56:29.730
Angela Bergmann: Has changed radically

730
00:56:29.790 –> 00:56:31.530
Jacob Stoops: Especially with what’s going on in

731
00:56:31.740 –> 00:56:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Politics right now and it’s kind of like Hatfields and McCoys where like

732
00:56:37.380 –> 00:56:38.580
Jacob Stoops: One media outlet

733
00:56:39.180 –> 00:56:39.480
Angela Bergmann: Is

734
00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:46.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s very black and white against one side and the other media outlet outlet is very black and white against the other. And there’s no middle we

735
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:55.320
Angela Bergmann: Are we are the enemy currently say I work on the agency side, but I still work for a media Publishing Company, first and foremost, we are the enemy right

736
00:56:55.650 –> 00:56:57.450
Jacob Stoops: So there’s a lot of bias.

737
00:56:57.930 –> 00:57:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Going on. So, so for these people like they have a right

738
00:57:01.470 –> 00:57:03.450
Jacob Stoops: To be pissed. I would be pissed if I was

739
00:57:03.480 –> 00:57:04.800
Jacob Stoops: misquoted or

740
00:57:04.830 –> 00:57:07.620
Jacob Stoops: Completely like having something a true. Oh, yeah.

741
00:57:07.950 –> 00:57:09.330
Angela Bergmann: You did. I didn’t say, but at the same

742
00:57:09.330 –> 00:57:12.900
Jacob Stoops: Time, like, consider the source. This is the wall.

743
00:57:12.900 –> 00:57:13.620
Jacob Stoops: Street Journal

744
00:57:14.190 –> 00:57:15.300
Jacob Stoops: They’re probably pushing an

745
00:57:15.300 –> 00:57:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Agenda, they’re not

746
00:57:17.760 –> 00:57:19.890
Angela Bergmann: An S. It’s not like their Search Engine Land.

747
00:57:19.950 –> 00:57:27.210
Jacob Stoops: Right. They’re not SEO news so they’re not people that know what goes on in the inner workings every day, like we do.

748
00:57:27.510 –> 00:57:44.310
Jacob Stoops: So, like, just by the very nature of it, they’re probably going to get some of it wrong or miss attribute or misunderstand some of what you’re saying. And when you layer that into the idea that there might be some sort of ulterior motive on the part of the reporter or the

749
00:57:45.630 –> 00:57:47.460
Jacob Stoops: The entity doing the publishing

750
00:57:48.690 –> 00:58:00.120
Jacob Stoops: I just think that probably the folks might have been a little naive to think that that wasn’t going to happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether they if I were in their situation being quoted

751
00:58:00.180 –> 00:58:01.680
Jacob Stoops: I probably would have provided a

752
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Quote, to not saying that I wouldn’t have been it’s just an interesting way to, to think about it and I probably would have been mad if they miss quoted me. I don’t know if I would have thought of that way like cynically like I guess I should have expected it.

753
00:58:18.300 –> 00:58:30.390
Jacob Stoops: And I would imagine being in their place. Maybe they did think about that. Maybe they didn’t but like looking at it from an outsider’s perspective. I’m not surprised that it got distorted. So that’s my two cents.

754
00:58:31.530 –> 00:58:35.430
Jacob Stoops: Everybody in SEO who got quoted feel feel free to come and tap me but

755
00:58:36.300 –> 00:58:36.900
Jacob Stoops: I hope you don’t

756
00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:39.690
Angela Bergmann: I don’t want a part of

757
00:58:39.930 –> 00:58:40.650
Angela Bergmann: Twitter drama.

758
00:58:42.030 –> 00:58:44.460
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jeff, you can move on. That’s my piece.

759
00:58:44.940 –> 00:58:57.240
Jeff Louella: Cool. I mean, there was other parts to the story too. So, I mean, one of it. That was like a big thing right that Google’s manually changing things they’ve engineers behind that. Like they said that, you know, even a bot.

760
00:58:57.990 –> 00:58:58.950
Angela Bergmann: Placements

761
00:58:58.980 –> 00:59:00.420
Jeff Louella: You know, did to be better and

762
00:59:00.420 –> 00:59:00.960
Angela Bergmann: The search

763
00:59:02.220 –> 00:59:05.880
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, Hey, thank you for that upgrade, but I don’t think

764
00:59:06.660 –> 00:59:08.310
Jacob Stoops: That’s just called paid search

765
00:59:08.520 –> 00:59:09.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, so there was

766
00:59:10.080 –> 00:59:11.070
Jeff Louella: They’ve done paid search and

767
00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:16.050
Jeff Louella: Search. Right. So it’s, yeah, there were, there was a ton. You know, I think when the part of

768
00:59:16.350 –> 00:59:18.270
Angela Bergmann: A bigger budget. That’s not fair.

769
00:59:19.980 –> 00:59:23.400
Jeff Louella: They will parts of the Google employees thousand paid contractors

770
00:59:23.760 –> 00:59:29.070
Jeff Louella: Whose sole purpose is to assess the quality of the algorithm and rankings like that is a negative thing.

771
00:59:30.120 –> 00:59:30.780
Jeff Louella: Like and

772
00:59:30.990 –> 00:59:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Lots of corporations high opaque attractors to do things.

773
00:59:35.880 –> 00:59:48.390
Jeff Louella: But then they survey them and say, Okay, did you see the results that you expected. And they will say like yes or no. I think this should be here and there, and that’s where really brand dominance comes into play. Like if I’m searching for

774
00:59:48.870 –> 00:59:49.200
Jeff Louella: You know,

775
00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:50.820
Jeff Louella: Some sort of

776
00:59:51.690 –> 00:59:57.870
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, a stroller. And like I was expecting target to show up because targets right down the street from me.

777
00:59:58.470 –> 01:00:09.240
Jeff Louella: And I didn’t get target, I would probably say, hey, I thought like started with me there and then Google can just things to maybe get results, but they’re not like targets not calling them and saying, hey, we’re not number one.

778
01:00:10.110 –> 01:00:11.130
Jeff Louella: Let’s put us in this place.

779
01:00:11.160 –> 01:00:11.790
Jeff Louella: And they

780
01:00:12.510 –> 01:00:19.410
Jeff Louella: They’re saying this is across thousands of contractors, right, like a quick like you’re not just going to tweak something and be like, Okay. Like, that’s probably

781
01:00:19.830 –> 01:00:33.270
Jeff Louella: Everything with Google. One of the ranking factors, right, because other things come into place. You know, we know links and content and all this other stuff comes into play. But at the end, if there are giving you the results you you’re not going to use them. Right, so it’s

782
01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:33.780
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of

783
01:00:34.770 –> 01:00:36.000
Jeff Louella: The effect of where it’s

784
01:00:36.030 –> 01:00:45.750
Jeff Louella: You know, we see this on the side of things, right, where it’s, I mean, there’s one reason. Google is Google. And that’s because they mostly give us what we want.

785
01:00:46.500 –> 01:00:47.460
Angela Bergmann: As an SEO.

786
01:00:47.670 –> 01:00:57.480
Jeff Louella: I sometimes hate that, because I don’t want the, you know, this knowledge graph to come up above my client site, but as a consumer, like great answer my question banks.

787
01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Don’t need to go to the website so

788
01:01:00.030 –> 01:01:08.490
Jeff Louella: I see both sides of it and I had to think about it as a consumer side of things and consumers like we need like I’m typing into Google and he ever results.

789
01:01:09.150 –> 01:01:22.830
Jeff Louella: As an SEO. I hate that, like, okay, my 10 links are now push down because I have images and paid search and things in the paid side to me as a consumer who wouldn’t know it could be deceptive, to an extent.

790
01:01:24.270 –> 01:01:29.160
Jeff Louella: I mean, they may name it ads. But if I don’t know anything about search like I’m clicking one of those ads. Right, so it’s

791
01:01:30.360 –> 01:01:35.940
Jeff Louella: And hopefully Google’s placing the right ads, where they need to be collect or or someone’s paying for ads for no reason.

792
01:01:37.950 –> 01:01:40.320
Jeff Louella: But yeah, there’s a ton in there, I think.

793
01:01:41.490 –> 01:01:44.370
Jeff Louella: One of the things is like they went through and saying that

794
01:01:45.630 –> 01:01:47.850
Jeff Louella: They had a black list of

795
01:01:48.720 –> 01:01:50.310
Jeff Louella: Domain companies that they don’t

796
01:01:50.340 –> 01:01:51.030
Angela Bergmann: Rank well

797
01:01:51.660 –> 01:01:54.000
Jeff Louella: And maybe like

798
01:01:54.570 –> 01:01:56.100
Jeff Louella: I don’t think there’s like a whiteboard with like

799
01:01:56.100 –> 01:01:59.970
Jeff Louella: All, you know, or if you ever watch the TV show blacklist.

800
01:02:01.380 –> 01:02:02.670
Jeff Louella: Yeah, or anything like that.

801
01:02:02.670 –> 01:02:03.900
Angela Bergmann: But it’s like hey

802
01:02:04.170 –> 01:02:06.660
Jeff Louella: There’s spammers out there and of course

803
01:02:06.810 –> 01:02:07.230
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

804
01:02:07.590 –> 01:02:09.090
Jeff Louella: We don’t want them showing up.

805
01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:10.260
Jeff Louella: Because we weren’t following reason.

806
01:02:10.680 –> 01:02:14.520
Angela Bergmann: Now it does not exist for a reason.

807
01:02:16.590 –> 01:02:20.820
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve got all those files were self reporting.

808
01:02:22.500 –> 01:02:23.250
Angela Bergmann: So, I mean, I think.

809
01:02:23.280 –> 01:02:25.620
Jeff Louella: As SEOs we get this and we see it as bad and I

810
01:02:25.710 –> 01:02:27.720
Angela Bergmann: Understand the backlash lash out there.

811
01:02:28.440 –> 01:02:29.970
Jeff Louella: On there, but it’s one of those where

812
01:02:31.350 –> 01:02:39.210
Jeff Louella: Maybe this is where like we were talking about earlier that like I feel like the beginner stuff that I like to look like everyone knows that.

813
01:02:40.110 –> 01:02:51.360
Jeff Louella: But there’s, you know, and it comes to things like that, especially in the Wall Street Journal, maybe point 1% knows, like the truth there and that’s where it comes damaging and I think we also tried to

814
01:02:51.390 –> 01:02:53.280
Angela Bergmann: defend ourselves as SEOs

815
01:02:53.460 –> 01:02:56.730
Jeff Louella: Plenty of times we. There’s a lot of bad

816
01:02:56.910 –> 01:02:57.600
Angela Bergmann: News out there.

817
01:02:57.660 –> 01:02:58.380
Right, so

818
01:03:00.270 –> 01:03:02.130
Jeff Louella: We don’t want to be misquoted like a good ones don’t.

819
01:03:02.160 –> 01:03:04.320
Jeff Louella: Be misquoted or see like we’re playing

820
01:03:04.560 –> 01:03:07.290
Angela Bergmann: Like magic that’s going on. So, I get that.

821
01:03:10.590 –> 01:03:14.190
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s where I think some of the frustration for that article comes from is that it’s

822
01:03:15.390 –> 01:03:17.220
Angela Bergmann: A more highly regarded new sort of

823
01:03:19.110 –> 01:03:24.870
Angela Bergmann: Niche recording misreporting about our industry when we already. We already have enough crap that we have to

824
01:03:28.290 –> 01:03:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Add them in. Now, to think

825
01:03:31.620 –> 01:03:33.210
Angela Bergmann: That is a good point and

826
01:03:34.260 –> 01:03:43.890
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, you brought up a good point. Like, there are a lot of bad SEO is out there. And one of the thoughts that was occurring in my brain was, well, if I’m a bad SEO like

827
01:03:44.460 –> 01:03:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Do I know that I’m a bad SEO and probably the answer is, not always. And I’m not saying any of those folks are bad SEOs but what occurred to me. Next is if I were a good SEO.

828
01:03:56.730 –> 01:04:04.380
Jacob Stoops: And this is some sort of a smear against Google or a sneer against SEO in general.

829
01:04:05.040 –> 01:04:18.390
Jacob Stoops: There might be the perception that I’m a bad SEO and I wouldn’t want that perception associated with me if, indeed, I was a good SEO. So yeah, I could see where the folks might get mad about that. It is a good question. I never

830
01:04:18.390 –> 01:04:22.320
Jeff Louella: Thought about was advantage to that I know if I was an SEO.

831
01:04:23.730 –> 01:04:35.040
Jeff Louella: Like the link builders realize that there. I guess spammers and other spammers right so it’s, yeah. But there’s, I mean there. I know there’s white hat Red Hat and things like that so

832
01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:38.220
Angela Bergmann: It’s interesting because I just don’t

833
01:04:39.060 –> 01:04:54.870
Jeff Louella: I do find that that that look right with companies that like, oh, SEO is black magic or SEO is is bad and actually fighting internal politics at companies where I’m trying to tell a developer, how to code a site a certain way.

834
01:04:55.200 –> 01:04:56.040
Jeff Louella: Am I giving you the code.

835
01:04:56.400 –> 01:04:57.630
Angela Bergmann: We need these results at the

836
01:04:57.630 –> 01:04:58.500
Jeff Louella: End and

837
01:04:58.530 –> 01:05:00.150
Jeff Louella: They think of me as like

838
01:05:01.500 –> 01:05:02.220
Angela Bergmann: The enemy.

839
01:05:02.490 –> 01:05:04.080
Jeff Louella: The enemy and something so

840
01:05:04.890 –> 01:05:08.220
Jeff Louella: Having more fuel to their fire is not what I’m looking for.

841
01:05:08.700 –> 01:05:09.300
Angela Bergmann: And it. Yeah.

842
01:05:09.360 –> 01:05:10.440
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I’m not gonna say like

843
01:05:11.010 –> 01:05:17.760
Jeff Louella: Hey trust everything in SEO says also because I think that’s why there could be some misquotes in that article, depending on the interview.

844
01:05:18.660 –> 01:05:27.090
Jeff Louella: Like there are plenty of SEO is out there who believe Google’s manipulating your search results. And that’s why they can’t get the number one. That’s what they’re telling their clients like you’ll never be

845
01:05:27.630 –> 01:05:29.430
Jeff Louella: Target because their target.

846
01:05:29.850 –> 01:05:37.890
Jeff Louella: And there might be some truth to that. But to say that Google reserve this spot for target is not. Yeah, it’s not right. It’s

847
01:05:38.550 –> 01:05:43.290
Jeff Louella: Become become Amazon like Amazon started off as a guy in the back of his truck like delivering books.

848
01:05:43.830 –> 01:05:52.860
Jeff Louella: And now he’s Amazon right and not everyone can do that of course it’s a it’s an amazing story, but the same time you know it’s it’s really hard for small business.

849
01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:05.790
Jeff Louella: Right now to rank for those top end terms. You got to find a better way. You know, whether it’s social or just giving customers different, you know, becoming that authority becoming that like expertise.

850
01:06:06.750 –> 01:06:15.480
Jeff Louella: It’s it’s a lot of work and it’s not something you can pay $500 a month to do, especially when you’re fighting against like someone like Target and Amazon in

851
01:06:15.870 –> 01:06:16.500
Angela Bergmann: Our space.

852
01:06:17.610 –> 01:06:27.240
Angela Bergmann: And the point that I always make people to as those top terms are going to be your conversion point. Anyways, so just ignore them like they’re not going to actually turn into dollars for you. You don’t want that traffic.

853
01:06:29.070 –> 01:06:30.240
Jacob Stoops: But people have vanity.

854
01:06:31.050 –> 01:06:33.450
Angela Bergmann: And people have egos.

855
01:06:34.080 –> 01:06:35.490
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the problem.

856
01:06:35.670 –> 01:06:39.150
Angela Bergmann: They want those terms. Yeah, and have them so

857
01:06:40.410 –> 01:06:49.470
Jacob Stoops: Anyways. So Jeff, I know that there’s some other news, we’re running short on short on time. So I want to dive into structured data.

858
01:06:51.660 –> 01:06:54.120
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. I know.

859
01:06:54.540 –> 01:06:55.200
You were saying

860
01:06:56.340 –> 01:06:57.150
That you do

861
01:06:58.530 –> 01:07:07.770
Jacob Stoops: You work all the time in structured data. So I guess what are, what are your thoughts. What do you like about it. What do you not like about it. What would you recommend to people.

862
01:07:09.360 –> 01:07:24.540
Angela Bergmann: So I’ll start with the thing that I don’t like about it on. I don’t like how little visibility, there is into the reporting for it because of how critical it’s become so their search console. I can see some rich snippet information.

863
01:07:26.940 –> 01:07:27.960
Angela Bergmann: Kind of what again.

864
01:07:29.190 –> 01:07:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Like at least there’s that visibility, so I can show the eyeball, um,

865
01:07:36.060 –> 01:07:49.440
Angela Bergmann: So I’ve started, including that in my reporting for clients but but more robust reporting specific to snippet placement would be amazing, because I do at the end of the day, understand that it’s

866
01:07:51.210 –> 01:07:57.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s tough to the Google can make money, but it also is user experience, the less the user has to click the happier. They are

867
01:07:59.250 –> 01:08:06.990
Angela Bergmann: And so Google is going to make their money. So I totally 100% yet it from their side, but I really want

868
01:08:08.970 –> 01:08:26.130
Angela Bergmann: To be able to show my clients, where they’re showing up like here’s all the backend work that I’ve done. Here’s all the coding that we’ve done implemented and it’s working. Here’s the effect that it’s having not just looked at all eyeballs that for you. Yeah.

869
01:08:28.920 –> 01:08:29.760
Angela Bergmann: You like it.

870
01:08:31.680 –> 01:08:41.880
Jacob Stoops: The thing that I find interesting in like Jeff, I would say, Jeff, you’re probably a little bit more technical than, than I am, although I’m pretty I’m pretty technical is

871
01:08:42.900 –> 01:08:51.870
Jacob Stoops: Everybody knows, quote unquote, I’m gonna say quote unquote knows that structured data is supposedly a good thing, right.

872
01:08:53.040 –> 01:09:03.390
Jacob Stoops: And there’s all kinds of structured data out there and I’m glad that we’re now calling it structured data because that’s the larger umbrella. A lot of people just call it schema.org and I keep going well.

873
01:09:03.390 –> 01:09:04.680
Angela Bergmann: That’s, that’s one type

874
01:09:05.160 –> 01:09:05.580
Jacob Stoops: But like

875
01:09:05.610 –> 01:09:17.850
Jacob Stoops: There are a bunch of other not a bunch. But there are other types of structured data that Google can use. So people a lot of times get structured data and schema.org confused confused and

876
01:09:18.210 –> 01:09:18.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

877
01:09:19.050 –> 01:09:19.530
I find it.

878
01:09:20.580 –> 01:09:39.300
Jacob Stoops: I find that part. Interesting. But the thing, the thing about structured data in general is is when we’re doing a technical audit or when we’re working on a sites technical foundation that is one of our leading recommendations in terms of things that we often see lacking that need

879
01:09:39.480 –> 01:09:41.250
Angela Bergmann: Implemented but the thought.

880
01:09:41.280 –> 01:09:53.430
Jacob Stoops: Always occurs to me is, should it be, should it be one of our leading recommendations. And the reason why is there are so many types of structured data out there.

881
01:09:54.120 –> 01:10:07.050
Jacob Stoops: What the things that actually populate rich snippets in search results versus the amount of structured data that’s available that you could mark your site up with. It’s like

882
01:10:07.110 –> 01:10:08.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, and percent

883
01:10:08.850 –> 01:10:11.820
Jacob Stoops: Or 20% or I don’t even know what the percentage is but like

884
01:10:12.690 –> 01:10:14.670
Jacob Stoops: You could mark mark the

885
01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:28.440
Jacob Stoops: Crap out of your site with all kinds of structured data and there’s no proof. There’s no proof that it’s actually doing anything beneficial for you until you get some sort of a rich snippet.

886
01:10:28.890 –> 01:10:39.180
Jacob Stoops: And what you’re saying and it’s in. It’s very true is even when you get that the reporting is so limited in terms in terms of is it doing anything valuable.

887
01:10:39.540 –> 01:10:56.730
Jacob Stoops: For you that it always makes me scratch my head when I hear folks go yeah structured data is is good and we want to feed Google a bunch of information and we need to get that implemented right away because it’s critical to technical site health

888
01:10:57.330 –> 01:10:58.650
Jacob Stoops: And the thing I always like

889
01:10:59.130 –> 01:11:00.180
Jacob Stoops: Take a step back and

890
01:11:00.180 –> 01:11:05.280
Jacob Stoops: Think is okay. I agree. But like, when we’re talking to the client like

891
01:11:05.730 –> 01:11:19.650
Jacob Stoops: A lot of times they need proof and they need evidence and they need a reason to prioritize something in their development queue or to display something in their development huge prioritize your recommendations. And the thing I

892
01:11:19.650 –> 01:11:19.980
Angela Bergmann: Always

893
01:11:20.040 –> 01:11:22.080
Jacob Stoops: Worry about is we have such a limited

894
01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:35.850
Jacob Stoops: window to get things implemented and to make an impact before our contract runs out on the agency side and I always worry that we’re blindly following quote unquote best practices because Google

895
01:11:36.450 –> 01:11:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Pushes it or because we think it’s a best practice without ever testing it on the other end without testing say hey I implemented blog post schema. Okay, well, that’s great. Did it do anything for you.

896
01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.120
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know. That’s usually the answer. I don’t know.

897
01:11:55.200 –> 01:12:11.460
Jacob Stoops: But it’s the best practice. So I guess I should implement it and the thing about it is that that honestly that drives me crazy. And what I wish is one that they were better recording and to I wish that more SEOs with think along the

898
01:12:12.570 –> 01:12:18.300
Jacob Stoops: Would use the Frank. The, the line of thinking of test it and measure

899
01:12:18.690 –> 01:12:19.800
Angela Bergmann: Once you implement it.

900
01:12:20.190 –> 01:12:21.210
Angela Bergmann: You what then happens

901
01:12:21.210 –> 01:12:38.610
Jacob Stoops: After that, from a result standpoint and document it so that when you go to another client and you recommend that particular type of structured data scheme or whatever you can say, hey, I did this on this client. And it worked out really well. And here’s why. And

902
01:12:39.180 –> 01:12:40.440
Jacob Stoops: Times, like, especially with

903
01:12:40.440 –> 01:12:49.020
Jacob Stoops: Things that don’t trigger rich snippets, it’s going to be correlation and not necessarily causation, because there’s not really a lot of reporting on it.

904
01:12:50.820 –> 01:12:51.990
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, that’s all I can.

905
01:12:51.990 –> 01:12:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Do and say, oh, well, we saw this many more eyeballs.

906
01:12:57.330 –> 01:13:07.890
Angela Bergmann: That then we do an audit and then we switch over to analytics and we look at, like, they’re your of your organic and then see if their conversion rate is increased and let’s talk about your correlating that if it did increase

907
01:13:08.460 –> 01:13:15.060
Angela Bergmann: It’s probably due to the snippet capture. There’s that connection, isn’t there yet. Yeah. And like

908
01:13:15.630 –> 01:13:23.460
Jacob Stoops: Don’t get me wrong, I love working unstructured data like nothing makes me happier than to sit for an hour and to develop some like

909
01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Clean beautiful JSON structured data market to pass over to the client, say, hey, just throw this into your page. And it’s that part for me because I come from, like, a technical background like

910
01:13:36.240 –> 01:13:44.550
Jacob Stoops: I enjoy doing that and I enjoy putting those recommendations together for clients and I enjoy even more when they implement them and they implement them correctly.

911
01:13:44.880 –> 01:13:45.990
Jacob Stoops: When I can go. Yes.

912
01:13:46.440 –> 01:13:47.670
Jacob Stoops: data testing tool and

913
01:13:47.670 –> 01:13:50.460
Jacob Stoops: See no validation like that.

914
01:13:50.820 –> 01:13:51.630
Jacob Stoops: That stuff like

915
01:13:52.080 –> 01:13:59.310
Jacob Stoops: That makes my heart happy but like the cynic in me and I think every good SEO is also part cynic.

916
01:14:00.030 –> 01:14:01.020
Angela Bergmann: Automatically

917
01:14:01.080 –> 01:14:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Also thinks like, Okay, I’ve got a

918
01:14:02.730 –> 01:14:10.650
Jacob Stoops: I’ve got a finite amount of time with this client, potentially, and I’ve got a finite amount of things that they can implement and I always think like

919
01:14:10.710 –> 01:14:11.070
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

920
01:14:12.000 –> 01:14:13.080
Jacob Stoops: Is this the thing that’s going to

921
01:14:13.080 –> 01:14:24.300
Jacob Stoops: move the needle or is this the thing we’re just trying to get in place, because it’s a best practice and like I think we should all think about the things that move the needle and move those up in the queue before the things that

922
01:14:24.840 –> 01:14:25.320
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, our

923
01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:27.450
Angela Bergmann: Housekeeping best practice items.

924
01:14:29.040 –> 01:14:43.080
Angela Bergmann: And it depends on the vertical to so like if you’re, if you have a client that’s in a vertical where eyeballs are really important. So I one of the one of the clients that I run very high volume schema for is a realtor

925
01:14:44.610 –> 01:14:51.960
Angela Bergmann: They care about eyeballs and they they’re competing against Zillow and Trulia and all of these sites. So realistically

926
01:14:52.290 –> 01:15:00.480
Angela Bergmann: They’re generating content they’re doing all the other stuff that we tend to do for clients. So they’re literally a technical client for us. I

927
01:15:00.870 –> 01:15:07.890
Angela Bergmann: Hold their developer accountable. The page speed improvements and then I implement schema on their site. And that’s all I do for them.

928
01:15:08.580 –> 01:15:20.910
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve seen huge organic growth year over year because of that, but they’re one of those situations where I get to have fun and do that because they’re just looking for visibility, they’re not looking for conversions.

929
01:15:21.750 –> 01:15:32.430
Angela Bergmann: How do I have plants were schema might be fantastic, but they don’t even have content so content got to come first. Oh, let me ask you this.

930
01:15:32.730 –> 01:15:34.860
Angela Bergmann: How did you get into a situation where

931
01:15:35.130 –> 01:15:41.640
Jacob Stoops: The client trust you enough to implement schema, because usually like developers are like, keep your damn hands off.

932
01:15:43.950 –> 01:15:56.370
Angela Bergmann: Um, basically, the way I so we did an audit of their site. We have a custom audit. That’s about 120 pages looks about 350 different points that we go over

933
01:15:57.630 –> 01:16:06.390
Angela Bergmann: Everything and then really for them. I was like, you know, you as a realtor you have great content, your, your descriptions for your homes are amazing.

934
01:16:07.410 –> 01:16:18.810
Angela Bergmann: your site’s going to be a little slow, but it’s a little slower than I think it should be especially when comparing it to your competitors and I pitched them. I said, here’s the thing. I was like, you’re not going to be Zillow

935
01:16:20.340 –> 01:16:34.500
Angela Bergmann: You’re just not but you can beat the other local realtors because somebody’s going to find a home on Zillow and then they know that they’re going to have to go to somebody local so you can be the second result after those big company.

936
01:16:35.850 –> 01:16:50.370
Angela Bergmann: And I taught them because they had no. The reason they had reached out as they’d notice that one of their competitive agencies was showing up before them for the same homes and I determined that it was because their title and none of the structure was pretty terrible.

937
01:16:51.600 –> 01:17:08.430
Angela Bergmann: Got their developers to change it saw within like a couple of months saw drastic change where they were starting to beat them out. And I was like, here’s the next step. The next step is going to be applying schema because they don’t have it Zillow does

938
01:17:09.480 –> 01:17:14.550
Angela Bergmann: That that’s your that’s your sweet spot. And it’s approved to work.

939
01:17:16.560 –> 01:17:27.690
Angela Bergmann: So it was fun. We had a really good relationship with this client already on our paid search side so that helps as well and just having a good real good trusting relationship with this client.

940
01:17:28.200 –> 01:17:39.630
Angela Bergmann: And they kind of let me roll those dice and I was like, I think this is going to pay off. So I told them to. I said, You know, I can’t make any guarantees on this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

941
01:17:41.280 –> 01:17:44.850
Angela Bergmann: And a year later, we we’ve seen, we’ve seen it pan out

942
01:17:46.350 –> 01:17:57.990
Angela Bergmann: But there is that fear you know as an SEO as it goes like, you’re like, No, no, this really should be the thing. It should should work. It should work. Yeah, please God, let it warm.

943
01:18:00.420 –> 01:18:03.390
Angela Bergmann: Google does they have some examples like

944
01:18:03.540 –> 01:18:04.710
Jeff Louella: Google does give some good advice.

945
01:18:04.890 –> 01:18:06.120
Jeff Louella: On like

946
01:18:06.720 –> 01:18:17.820
Jeff Louella: How to schema. Like, like if you do it right. Like it doesn’t guarantee, but you can get a nice you know how to section on your mobile phone or FAQ schema. But then there are those ones out there.

947
01:18:17.880 –> 01:18:18.120
Angela Bergmann: Like

948
01:18:18.900 –> 01:18:23.010
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, I just kind of looked up real quick there like one for comic books.

949
01:18:23.040 –> 01:18:24.810
Jeff Louella: I mean, I guess if you have a comic book site.

950
01:18:24.810 –> 01:18:29.430
Jeff Louella: Or stuff, but it’s like the product. Is it, like, Is Google going to do anything. Yeah.

951
01:18:29.460 –> 01:18:30.540
Jeff Louella: On that one or

952
01:18:31.050 –> 01:18:39.090
Jeff Louella: Are they gonna do anything for if you are. I don’t know, looking here like movies make sense. Like there’s certain ones I know events.

953
01:18:39.420 –> 01:18:42.630
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, certain ones that I know that we need to to be

954
01:18:43.770 –> 01:18:59.400
Jeff Louella: You know ingested into Google properly and kind of displayed in their stuff that there’s ones that we need. But then there are a whole bunch out there like I know bread crumbs, give, give me good bread crumbs. I know that you know there’s tools out there.

955
01:18:59.430 –> 01:18:59.790
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

956
01:18:59.940 –> 01:19:00.750
Jeff Louella: A whole bunch that are

957
01:19:01.230 –> 01:19:13.020
Jeff Louella: No clue on local like I usually don’t recommend it really easy depending again on vertical insight, like there’s a there’s a handful that I recommend and then either are so many more.

958
01:19:13.740 –> 01:19:25.320
Jeff Louella: And is it like eventually Google is going to get around to these and they’re eventually going to be put in there. Are we ahead of the game are we wasting our time like and Jake is you’re saying, You’re right, like there are up.

959
01:19:25.500 –> 01:19:26.010
Jeff Louella: Even if

960
01:19:26.070 –> 01:19:29.490
Jeff Louella: We have a finite amount of time to know results.

961
01:19:30.090 –> 01:19:31.380
Jeff Louella: And thinking for like

962
01:19:31.800 –> 01:19:33.930
Jeff Louella: Four years down the road is not one of them right now.

963
01:19:34.950 –> 01:19:35.250
Jeff Louella: And

964
01:19:35.880 –> 01:19:36.930
Angela Bergmann: I’m hoping that

965
01:19:37.320 –> 01:19:45.870
Jeff Louella: Structured data helps other things too, right, like so right now we have things like open graph that like when you put it on your site and some post on to

966
01:19:46.230 –> 01:19:57.270
Jeff Louella: Your Pinterest or Facebook, it pulls that information in. From there, you know, Twitter has their Twitter cards and stuff but like I think structured data can feed other things like your calendar, because you have an event.

967
01:19:57.690 –> 01:19:59.280
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, your calendar should integrate with

968
01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.180
Jeff Louella: Schema to pull those events into your calendar and things like that. Yep scheme is

969
01:20:03.210 –> 01:20:04.350
Angela Bergmann: Great that way, but

970
01:20:04.380 –> 01:20:08.850
Jeff Louella: I don’t see like Microsoft Outlook using them yet.

971
01:20:08.880 –> 01:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: Right, so it’s we do it as SEOs

972
01:20:10.830 –> 01:20:11.580
Angela Bergmann: For SEO.

973
01:20:12.060 –> 01:20:26.190
Jeff Louella: And I feel like there’s such a big potential for every other type of app out there that needs to be data. I think on my website, which is sad. These days, I think of it as like a feed that I’m feeding Google, um, you know, if you think

974
01:20:26.220 –> 01:20:26.910
Jeff Louella: About it as like

975
01:20:27.090 –> 01:20:28.110
Jeff Louella: Here’s my XML feed.

976
01:20:28.110 –> 01:20:32.550
Jeff Louella: Here’s my content for years, all these different fields. And then let’s get it to make it pretty for customers.

977
01:20:33.540 –> 01:20:49.110
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of how I think and things, but not everybody does, of course, but I would love for you know like music playlist schema to be able to be ingested by my iTunes app, but it’s not there right now. Like it’s it’s really just

978
01:20:49.110 –> 01:20:50.100
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, just

979
01:20:52.230 –> 01:21:05.340
Angela Bergmann: Like the only ones that I really focus on is like Product Listing blog FAQ. Um, we’re doing a lot of with the medical related schema.

980
01:21:06.570 –> 01:21:09.420
Angela Bergmann: Just because that’s huge in search, obviously.

981
01:21:10.830 –> 01:21:11.490
Angela Bergmann: And then

982
01:21:14.070 –> 01:21:24.660
Angela Bergmann: Organizational schema like by default we essentially load organizational schema for every client. And that’s really and then it’s like, based on the client kind of where we go from there. So,

983
01:21:24.870 –> 01:21:30.360
Angela Bergmann: I always tell clients because they’ll ask about that. How do I get position zero. I’m like, well, you have to have good content first

984
01:21:33.300 –> 01:21:34.200
Jacob Stoops: Ever had

985
01:21:34.650 –> 01:21:53.970
Jacob Stoops: Any instances where you recommended a particular I’m going to say product schema, for example, and a client was apprehensive about some of the features of their product or offering showing up in search results for a consumer to see

986
01:21:59.430 –> 01:22:00.930
That I haven’t yet.

987
01:22:02.580 –> 01:22:03.120
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

988
01:22:03.210 –> 01:22:05.910
Jacob Stoops: I have a, I have a story where I

989
01:22:07.650 –> 01:22:21.600
Jacob Stoops: had a client who is I guess what I would call up they make a premium product. So it’s like the within what they do. It’s like the Cadillac, not the Honda version.

990
01:22:21.630 –> 01:22:23.460
Angela Bergmann: Of a product and

991
01:22:23.640 –> 01:22:33.810
Jacob Stoops: They make a really great product, but we were working to implement product schema. And one of the things that’s a huge component of that is, price, price and availability and

992
01:22:36.780 –> 01:22:39.480
Angela Bergmann: They did not want to expose price in

993
01:22:41.220 –> 01:22:42.300
Jacob Stoops: Right, yeah.

994
01:22:42.690 –> 01:22:43.890
Angela Bergmann: Their price is

995
01:22:43.920 –> 01:22:53.490
Jacob Stoops: A little bit higher. And I thought that that was an interesting position to take, given that a consumer is going to figure it out once they click

996
01:22:54.180 –> 01:22:55.230
Angela Bergmann: And get to the site.

997
01:22:55.260 –> 01:23:04.320
Jacob Stoops: But when I think about it from their perspective. Well, the consumer sees that price they may never click on it in the first place.

998
01:23:04.380 –> 01:23:11.220
Angela Bergmann: And they’re not going to understand the context is they’re not going to understand the context, they’re just going to see this much more expensive thing.

999
01:23:11.220 –> 01:23:12.720
Angela Bergmann: Especially if other sites.

1000
01:23:12.930 –> 01:23:15.930
Jacob Stoops: In the competitive set are using that schema and

1001
01:23:15.930 –> 01:23:22.830
Angela Bergmann: showing their price. Oh, although I think the argument could be made for a client like that that

1002
01:23:24.570 –> 01:23:26.430
Angela Bergmann: I’m more scared when there’s no price.

1003
01:23:27.600 –> 01:23:28.080
Angela Bergmann: Right.

1004
01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:32.070
Jacob Stoops: What right, and like, okay, if I’m a consumer and

1005
01:23:32.100 –> 01:23:33.540
Jacob Stoops: I look at that and I’m

1006
01:23:33.960 –> 01:23:35.520
Jacob Stoops: Looking for that particular

1007
01:23:35.520 –> 01:23:41.100
Jacob Stoops: PRODUCT, AND I’M AFRAID OF THE PRICE my really the right type of consumer for you. Anyways, is

1008
01:23:41.160 –> 01:23:41.970
Angela Bergmann: One. Yeah.

1009
01:23:42.600 –> 01:23:43.530
Jacob Stoops: And I’ve seen

1010
01:23:43.830 –> 01:23:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Not what this schema, necessarily, but with I’ve seen with review schema, the one of the few times I’ve been able, and this was in the past when there just wasn’t a lot of data.

1011
01:23:57.090 –> 01:24:01.710
Jacob Stoops: YOU WOULD THERE WASN’T THE NICE Google Search Console data that there is now where

1012
01:24:02.940 –> 01:24:10.530
Jacob Stoops: We had star ratings and there was a time when because they worked with a specific vendor bizarre voice.

1013
01:24:11.790 –> 01:24:12.330
Jacob Stoops: Who I hate

1014
01:24:13.530 –> 01:24:14.940
Jacob Stoops: They worked with that vendor.

1015
01:24:14.940 –> 01:24:16.140
Jacob Stoops: And their

1016
01:24:16.170 –> 01:24:17.250
Jacob Stoops: star ratings.

1017
01:24:17.970 –> 01:24:21.720
Jacob Stoops: Magically dropped off because their schema was wrong and then

1018
01:24:22.470 –> 01:24:35.340
Jacob Stoops: Once we worked with bizarre voice to get that fixed the star ratings came back and we because we had that nice apples to apples comparison were able to get a very clean.

1019
01:24:35.820 –> 01:24:50.070
Jacob Stoops: Before, and after. And were able to get a very clean incremental click through rate gain based on just the presence of star ratings in in search results, and it was substantial and for that brand in

1020
01:24:50.070 –> 01:24:50.820
Angela Bergmann: Particular

1021
01:24:51.210 –> 01:24:52.530
Jacob Stoops: There are massive worldwide.

1022
01:24:52.530 –> 01:25:10.830
Jacob Stoops: Brand. So an increasing click through rate of 1% for them met hundreds of thousands of more visitors just by having star ratings and that’s the argument that I always try to use with with clients in terms of things that are going to trigger rich snippets in search results is like hey

1023
01:25:12.210 –> 01:25:19.830
Jacob Stoops: It’s highly likely that more people are going to click on your, your page as a result of this, this feature, but

1024
01:25:19.920 –> 01:25:20.250
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1025
01:25:20.640 –> 01:25:22.020
Jacob Stoops: On the business side they’re, you know,

1026
01:25:22.020 –> 01:25:31.110
Jacob Stoops: They’re definitely thinking of their business and they’re trying to they’re there, they were taking the opposite stance that if people see our price, which is a Cadillac price.

1027
01:25:32.370 –> 01:25:39.750
Jacob Stoops: Maybe there’ll be scared away. So that was an interesting, interesting little tidbit that I’ve that I’ve been through before it was

1028
01:25:40.770 –> 01:25:43.110
Jacob Stoops: Interesting. I’ll just say, I’ll leave it at that.

1029
01:25:47.640 –> 01:25:49.590
Jeff Louella: DOESN’T SURPRISE either and

1030
01:25:49.710 –> 01:25:51.210
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s, it’s

1031
01:25:51.840 –> 01:25:59.760
Jeff Louella: Not because they don’t want to. It’s because they also have half their businesses are franchise and the franchisees

1032
01:26:00.450 –> 01:26:01.710
Angela Bergmann: Price. Ooh.

1033
01:26:02.340 –> 01:26:05.220
Jeff Louella: And even though it’s mostly the same there are

1034
01:26:05.400 –> 01:26:06.780
Jeff Louella: Outliers, where if

1035
01:26:06.900 –> 01:26:25.440
Jeff Louella: That same business has a store in Alaska. It takes the they sell it for more expensive because you have to ship to Alaska to have it in their store. And so they charge maybe $1 more and they don’t you know when people going in the store saying like your website says this price.

1036
01:26:26.610 –> 01:26:33.090
Jeff Louella: For this price. So the only way to get prices is when you get to the website is to select your local store and then you get that local stores pricing.

1037
01:26:34.380 –> 01:26:39.720
Jeff Louella: But Google does not have a local store and or or if they did, it would always be

1038
01:26:39.990 –> 01:26:54.930
Jeff Louella: The pricing and that’s one of those where they can’t do it. And I feel sometimes I I’m fighting a battle with, you know, one hand tied behind my back because matter all the arguments I have like they’re like, we have to look out for our franchisees

1039
01:26:55.980 –> 01:27:03.450
Jeff Louella: So it’s, it’s an interesting battle there. So we try to do other things, of course, but like we just give the highest price, then, and then they were saying they don’t want to do that either.

1040
01:27:04.200 –> 01:27:07.470
Angela Bergmann: Well, people are surprised when it’s lower on the website.

1041
01:27:07.830 –> 01:27:09.150
Jeff Louella: When it’s cheaper.

1042
01:27:10.620 –> 01:27:11.040
Angela Bergmann: But they

1043
01:27:11.070 –> 01:27:14.940
Jeff Louella: They have that fear, then no one would come to the site, then if they knew it was more money than

1044
01:27:15.390 –> 01:27:16.260
Jacob Stoops: What I’m

1045
01:27:17.460 –> 01:27:20.070
Jacob Stoops: What do you guys think is the future of structured data.

1046
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:40.440
Angela Bergmann: I think rejected point out, like the tada further time. Yeah. So having it not just be Information Center. Google is being able to leverage that in other ways at a calendar invite

1047
01:27:40.950 –> 01:27:56.370
Angela Bergmann: You know load something add something to an app like I think further leveraging of it because it’s structured data format it in a way that makes it easy to process into things. So how can we use that better.

1048
01:27:57.900 –> 01:27:58.110
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1049
01:27:58.260 –> 01:27:59.340
Jeff Louella: I agree. That’s where I

1050
01:27:59.340 –> 01:28:01.170
Jeff Louella: Think, and I see

1051
01:28:01.230 –> 01:28:06.960
Jeff Louella: You know, I know, wants to schema.org there’s a million like a million, but they keep growing the

1052
01:28:07.350 –> 01:28:08.340
Jeff Louella: Other the other does it

1053
01:28:08.700 –> 01:28:10.080
Jeff Louella: Because everything right, it’s

1054
01:28:10.200 –> 01:28:15.660
Jeff Louella: Gonna look at a coffee Cal Poly. We might have coffee cup schema. One day when there’s this different sub levels because you can

1055
01:28:15.660 –> 01:28:16.560
Jeff Louella: Keep adding like

1056
01:28:16.920 –> 01:28:19.590
Jeff Louella: You start off with a thing. And then we break that down and we break that

1057
01:28:19.590 –> 01:28:20.190
Jeff Louella: Down and

1058
01:28:20.220 –> 01:28:20.550
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1059
01:28:21.480 –> 01:28:22.920
Jeff Louella: To the point where we can’t

1060
01:28:23.400 –> 01:28:29.160
Jeff Louella: Can we all we can meet over structured data, probably, but at the same time.

1061
01:28:29.250 –> 01:28:30.570
Angela Bergmann: It’s structure, I think.

1062
01:28:31.140 –> 01:28:44.250
Jeff Louella: The goal of structured data is off of the web also so or not. So often the web, but off of like your web page and into apps and things like that were made, just like sharing easy. I kind of think of it as like

1063
01:28:44.970 –> 01:28:53.460
Jeff Louella: Elon Musk open sourced the electrical system for Tesla because he knows that if there’s 17 different plugins to plug in

1064
01:28:54.120 –> 01:29:07.890
Jeff Louella: That know like if I had a Ford electric car, you had a Chevy and then someone wasn’t a Tesla, we could interchange our electrical plugs, there would be no electric cars will not take off because everyone is the same gas tank.

1065
01:29:07.920 –> 01:29:09.090
Right, so there are

1066
01:29:10.410 –> 01:29:16.740
Jeff Louella: You know the structure to that that and reason why there’s a certain sizes and components to it so

1067
01:29:17.040 –> 01:29:22.710
Jeff Louella: If I have an app, it’d be awesome to be able to, like, I know my app can interface with your app, because we use similar structures in our data.

1068
01:29:23.010 –> 01:29:33.720
Jeff Louella: I can send you my map results. I can switch between being and someone else because and Google Maps, because they use the same structure in a structured data, I think.

1069
01:29:34.140 –> 01:29:36.450
Angela Bergmann: That helps machine, talk to the machine.

1070
01:29:36.960 –> 01:29:41.190
Jeff Louella: And at the end of the day, it’s you know, it’s just trying to figure it out and makes everything more

1071
01:29:41.760 –> 01:29:45.420
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the way I hope it goes, because I

1072
01:29:45.420 –> 01:29:55.110
Jeff Louella: Really feel as kind of a nerd who like to develop and he likes to interface with other systems. I don’t want to have to have an Excel document in between and

1073
01:29:55.140 –> 01:29:56.640
Jeff Louella: Transform all my data.

1074
01:29:56.970 –> 01:29:58.290
Jeff Louella: You know, and to then

1075
01:29:58.350 –> 01:30:14.280
Jeff Louella: Push it off to somewhere else, which I do a lot of my reporting now. But, you know, I’d love to be able to have, like, you know what is in Google Analytics, right, like a session in Adobe analytics is not what especially means in Google Analytics or a user. And there’s all these different

1076
01:30:14.280 –> 01:30:14.760
Angela Bergmann: Terms.

1077
01:30:15.030 –> 01:30:22.260
Jeff Louella: Of having like a structure between them all would actually be awesome, because then we can compare apples to apples and not apples to bananas, let’s let’s

1078
01:30:23.760 –> 01:30:26.250
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela, where can people find you.

1079
01:30:29.370 –> 01:30:29.970
Angela Bergmann: Twitter.

1080
01:30:31.920 –> 01:30:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Twitter. I’m at Red kitten.

1081
01:30:34.680 –> 01:30:37.530
Angela Bergmann: That’s probably the best place to find me.

1082
01:30:38.070 –> 01:30:40.350
Angela Bergmann: That is a great handle. Where does that handle come

1083
01:30:40.350 –> 01:30:40.680
From

1084
01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:51.600
Angela Bergmann: Um, that was actually my original like one of my original domain was red kittens on and Yun was where I was blogging and it just kind of stuck.

1085
01:30:53.430 –> 01:30:59.010
Angela Bergmann: I even use it like in World of Warcraft. So that’s my my card plate is red pitney

1086
01:31:01.320 –> 01:31:03.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, mine’s just Jacob stoops.com I guess I need to

1087
01:31:03.750 –> 01:31:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Be or Jacob stoops just as Jacob stoops I guess I just in years. Jeff is just at Jeff, Luella I guess we need to get more creative.

1088
01:31:11.340 –> 01:31:17.880
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a time in my life where I had like fun handles, and then I became like a ship poster.

1089
01:31:19.470 –> 01:31:27.780
Jeff Louella: Looks like you know if I use my real name. It really makes me think about that. I’m going to post because when I didn’t have my real name on there like starting flame wars.

1090
01:31:28.110 –> 01:31:28.590
So,

1091
01:31:30.450 –> 01:31:32.190
Jeff Louella: Like way happier using my real name.

1092
01:31:32.250 –> 01:31:35.280
Jacob Stoops: Next episode is just all about Jeff’s burner accounts.

1093
01:31:37.920 –> 01:31:44.880
Angela Bergmann: My Twitter does have my real name on it though. So I don’t know, getting away. Yeah, there is no anyways.

1094
01:31:44.970 –> 01:31:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Um, thank you so much for for coming on. We really. We really appreciate it and go browns.

1095
01:31:53.430 –> 01:31:54.540
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, go, go.

1096
01:31:55.680 –> 01:31:56.460
Angela Bergmann: Bye everybody.

#22: Niki Mosier

We talk with Niki Mosier about going from designing Wordpress sites to technical SEO, working with developers and more.

#21: Brian Gorman

We talk with Brian Gorman about going from a music career to SEO, link penalties, importance of developing an SEO specialty and more.

#20: Jennifer Wright

We talk with Jennifer Wright about going from social media to SEO, why SEO is like golf, content gap analysis and more.

#18: JR Oakes

We talk with JR Oakes about moving from a career in glass design to technical SEO, Beer and SEO, the tech SEO subreddit and more.

#15: Janet Bartoli

We talk with Janet Bartoli about in-house SEO, agency SEO, consulting, speaking, and educating others about search.

#1: Rand Fishkin

We talk with Rand about everything including his time at Moz, the founding of Sparktoro, his book Lost and Founder, and more.

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