- How she studied as a system engineer in Nicaragua and got her Masters in E-Commerce from the University of Salamanca in Spain
- How her studies led her to become a web designer which eventually led her to SEO
- Going from agency to in-house to becoming an independent consultant
- Founding and managing her businesses
- Her SEO FOMO newsletter
- Building her personal brand
- Public speaking, keeping up with her hectic schedule
- Why she loves travel (and food)
And much more!
In the news
We talk about:
- Getting more and better data exports in Google Search Console
- A recent study published on Search Engine Journal entitled Unpacking the causal impact of Google’s double-dipping featured snippet update
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By Jacob Stoops — 3 months ago
How he went from going to college to get his Master’s in psychology to helping his wife rank her photography website to SEO
His brief career as an affiliate marketer with some black-hat tendencies to transitioning to a true white-hat practitioner
Founding the first “white-hat” SEO agency in Poland
The difficulty of getting into the English SEO market
Founding his companies
Specializing in technical SEO
And much more!
In the news
We talk about:
The impact of Coronavirus on the SEO conference circuit
Another Google update that tightens the restrictions on the usage of FAQ schema
Finally, we have a deep dive into the topic of website migrations.Post Views: 488
By Jacob Stoops — 6 months ago
We have an amazing episode in store for you today as we have not one, but two guests!
We had such a free-flowing conversation that we ditched the traditional format (as you will soon find out) and we covered a ton of topics including:
- Ashley and Jamie’s backgrounds and career progressions into SEO
- Their amazing friendship
- Why they love technical SEO
- Dealing with impostor syndrome and self doubt
- Public speaking and writing
- The conference circuit
And so much more.
00:00:01.380 –> 00:00:21.510
Jacob Stoops: Alright. Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops we are back for another episode of the page to podcast and today we have a very, very special episode where we have not one, but two guests and I will let you know who those guests are in a moment. But first, I’ve got to say hi to Jeff.
00:00:21.870 –> 00:00:22.560
Jeff Louella: Hello everybody.
00:00:22.710 –> 00:00:24.630
Jacob Stoops: And everything. Make sure we don’t skip Jeff.
00:00:26.190 –> 00:00:31.860
Jacob Stoops: And then guests. Number one is going to be Miss Jamie Alberico. Jamie, how’s it going
00:00:33.000 –> 00:00:38.370
Jamie Alberico: I’m so sad to be that guy. First thing in the podcast, it’s out there we go.
00:00:38.700 –> 00:00:39.000
00:00:40.740 –> 00:00:41.160
Jacob Stoops: You. I am
00:00:43.110 –> 00:00:46.920
Jacob Stoops: I gave you the Midwest pronunciation with the Bad accent. So I am
00:00:48.810 –> 00:00:49.620
Jamie Alberico: Okay.
00:00:49.740 –> 00:00:50.250
00:00:51.390 –> 00:00:52.740
Jamie Alberico: It means else King
00:00:53.220 –> 00:00:54.330
Jacob Stoops: What, no.
00:00:54.390 –> 00:00:54.660
00:00:55.980 –> 00:01:01.980
Jamie Alberico: Alberico means elf King, Jamie means usurper.
00:01:02.430 –> 00:01:02.760
00:01:04.950 –> 00:01:11.400
Jacob Stoops: Well, I would say, I was gonna say Game of Thrones. Because of you, soccer, but elf is more Lord of the Rings, so
00:01:11.670 –> 00:01:13.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Or D, amp D do it on
00:01:13.440 –> 00:01:25.410
Jacob Stoops: there or there you go that’s that’s probably a better a better reference, but I actually don’t play d&d so the other person speaking, surprise surprise is Miss Ashley Berman Hale. Hi. How’s it going, Ashley.
00:01:25.650 –> 00:01:26.730
Jamie Alberico: Good. I couldn’t keep
00:01:26.730 –> 00:01:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: My mouth shut, until you
00:01:28.320 –> 00:01:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Enjoy your now.
00:01:29.610 –> 00:01:30.960
Jacob Stoops: Did I pronounce your name right.
00:01:31.350 –> 00:01:31.950
Ashley Berman Hale: No.
00:01:32.040 –> 00:01:33.090
00:01:36.030 –> 00:01:36.450
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.
00:01:37.080 –> 00:01:38.430
Ashley Berman Hale: Thank you very much.
00:01:38.730 –> 00:01:45.030
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s nothing like face palming the the intros and messing up somebody’s name immediately. So
00:01:46.020 –> 00:01:47.220
Jacob Stoops: Can wish I was the
00:01:47.520 –> 00:01:50.670
Jacob Stoops: Was the first time I’ve done that. But it’s but it’s not you think I’d learned
00:01:51.960 –> 00:02:01.470
Jacob Stoops: Cool. So thank you everybody for being here. I know in Jamie’s case she’s kind of out on the West Coast. So it’s a very early morning so
00:02:02.040 –> 00:02:10.560
Jacob Stoops: Extra Special that she has decided to join us. I did want to make a few remarks and tell a quick story before we kind of dive in.
00:02:11.340 –> 00:02:24.510
Jacob Stoops: The one, one thing is I wanted to pay a bit of tribute my wife’s Grandpa. We just came from his funeral. This weekend and today actually would be his 100th birthday.
00:02:25.290 –> 00:02:40.800
Jacob Stoops: So he decided to to not wait we had planned a surprise birthday party for him on this this past Saturday, and we were, we had had hired a an old
00:02:42.090 –> 00:02:48.300
Jacob Stoops: Style crooner we had had because he’s a Italian we had had a nice Catholic
00:02:49.890 –> 00:03:00.480
Jacob Stoops: BLEEP something sent from the actual Pope in Rome, we had had the governor of Kentucky, the President of the Cincinnati Reds all kinds of people.
00:03:01.680 –> 00:03:06.540
Jacob Stoops: provided some really special things for him to honor his 100th birthday.
00:03:07.020 –> 00:03:18.120
Jacob Stoops: Unfortunately, about three weeks ago he passed away and he pulled one over on us. So instead of going to a surprise 100th birthday party. We went to his funeral this weekend.
00:03:18.390 –> 00:03:37.500
Jacob Stoops: But today, would have been his actual 100th birthday. So what I can only hope is that he, his wife preceded him by about five years is that she called him up to spend his hundredth birthday with her. So Hank Picciano if you can somehow, hear me, we love you and we miss you already
00:03:39.210 –> 00:03:41.100
Jacob Stoops: So now, now that I’m
00:03:42.540 –> 00:03:48.750
Jacob Stoops: A little sad. Sorry, I’m trying goes, it’s still a little Ross of trying to do. I’m trying to hold it back here, but
00:03:49.830 –> 00:03:57.990
Jacob Stoops: Wanted to tell the story of how we were able to book both Jamie and Ashley at the same time and
00:03:58.770 –> 00:04:08.100
Jacob Stoops: I hope that it didn’t come across super creepy. But basically, when we were thinking about Season two. And we were trying to figure out, okay,
00:04:08.400 –> 00:04:23.670
Jacob Stoops: Here’s everybody that we’ve already talked to, and here are the people and it’s a large group of people. You guys are extra, extra special. Obviously, but it’s a large group of people, because there are just so many fantastic SEOs in the in the space and honestly
00:04:24.720 –> 00:04:29.550
Jacob Stoops: We’re going to try to interview every single one of them, because there are so many, but it could take years.
00:04:30.270 –> 00:04:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Which is a good thing. Since we have a podcast but basically we when we had thought about who we want on Ashley and Jamie were kind of close to the top of the list.
00:04:40.170 –> 00:04:51.750
Jacob Stoops: And so we had started, we had started reaching out to people and especially in cases where you don’t directly know each other’s but you are kind of tangentially connected
00:04:52.380 –> 00:04:58.950
Jacob Stoops: As we were in a, in a few cases, you just kind of go through the the different channels. The, the email.
00:04:59.250 –> 00:05:10.770
Jacob Stoops: We use you use whatever’s available to us. So Jeff was connected to Ashley through a text Slack channel. I was connected to to Jamie through Twitter.
00:05:11.220 –> 00:05:21.060
Jacob Stoops: And then we had found somehow emails. I think we pulled them from Jamie, I think I called your email from your website.
00:05:21.780 –> 00:05:33.090
Jacob Stoops: I think it’s not not a robot, which I want to ask about that. And then I somehow we found Ashley’s here. I don’t know. But anyway, so we’re reaching out and we’re in the process. And it’s occurring on the same day and
00:05:34.080 –> 00:05:46.500
Jacob Stoops: We came to found out to find out that not only were we both reaching out to you guys. At the same time, you are literally sitting in the same room while we’re trying to schedule this so
00:05:47.670 –> 00:05:55.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that especially because you didn’t know us directly. It was like these creepy guys trying to schedule us for a pot.
00:05:56.610 –> 00:05:57.030
Jacob Stoops: Yes.
00:05:57.390 –> 00:06:00.330
Jamie Alberico: Actually these guys want to schedule a murder. What are you doing,
00:06:00.420 –> 00:06:00.780
00:06:03.330 –> 00:06:03.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Numbers.
00:06:06.750 –> 00:06:07.140
Jacob Stoops: Vary
00:06:08.580 –> 00:06:09.060
Jacob Stoops: But you guys
00:06:09.210 –> 00:06:09.870
00:06:12.990 –> 00:06:29.610
Jamie Alberico: Ashley had just ordered some some birthday brunch for me. And we were at my kitchen table and drain eggs Benedict and something to listen to a local bit around here. And yeah, we both got the same message like hey, she just got an invitation for pitch to
00:06:30.780 –> 00:06:31.230
Jamie Alberico: The oh
00:06:31.410 –> 00:06:32.370
Jeff Louella: Yes, funny.
00:06:32.910 –> 00:06:40.560
Jacob Stoops: Well luckily it all. It all worked out. You guys are a good sports and we appreciate you all coming on. So,
00:06:42.210 –> 00:06:54.930
Jacob Stoops: As as everybody who listens to this podcast knows the hallmark is origin stories backgrounds and what it’s like to be to be an SEO and since we have two
00:06:55.560 –> 00:07:03.780
Jacob Stoops: Guests on this podcast, we’re going to be doing two interviews and depending on timing will probably skip, skip the news. Maybe we’ll
00:07:04.350 –> 00:07:22.560
Jacob Stoops: We were going to maybe talk about tech SEO boost, but I think we can skip that for now. But we’re going to be doing to background story interviews and then later on a deep dive into just general technical SEO. So who wants to go first. Who would like to step up to the plate.
00:07:23.250 –> 00:07:23.760
00:07:25.290 –> 00:07:26.760
Jamie Alberico: Oh you have see
00:07:29.880 –> 00:07:35.160
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jamie. Since it’s six in the morning or seven in the morning there and you’re
00:07:35.700 –> 00:07:37.140
Jacob Stoops: Fresh on game.
00:07:37.830 –> 00:07:41.280
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah, I was bitten by a radioactive search engine.
00:07:42.570 –> 00:07:44.460
Jamie Alberico: My Uncle Ben and now I’m here.
00:07:44.790 –> 00:07:45.660
Now you’re here.
00:07:46.920 –> 00:07:50.460
Jacob Stoops: Miss Peter Parker Pedro Parker. Oh.
00:07:54.480 –> 00:08:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: What was I here, for I got frustrated with other jobs and I like to tinker. All right. Um, I mean we can tell the long story if you want actual details. Is that what this podcast is about
00:08:05.550 –> 00:08:08.640
Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly. I was gonna say well podcast is over a
00:08:10.110 –> 00:08:11.940
Jamie Alberico: Couple of little one liners are like
00:08:13.140 –> 00:08:14.160
Jamie Alberico: cash the check.
00:08:14.550 –> 00:08:14.760
00:08:16.950 –> 00:08:20.190
Ashley Berman Hale: I think that was Jamie’s really good job of loving it back to me because
00:08:20.910 –> 00:08:23.430
Ashley Berman Hale: There for me to call not it. So I will get started.
00:08:25.590 –> 00:08:31.710
Ashley Berman Hale: I have a degree in art history which is fantastically useless in the traditional sense.
00:08:33.120 –> 00:08:40.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I love it. Critical thinking is something that is a little bit tough to teach. If you don’t have it. So thank you, college for giving me that
00:08:40.950 –> 00:08:51.600
Ashley Berman Hale: And the first non waitress job I took or non dish dish washing and a bar or non making coffee was a sit down job at a small startup.
00:08:52.050 –> 00:09:02.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Where I had to answer, answer emails for people who are too busy to answer their own emails and pretend to do that. So that was how I got started made friends with the CFO did some audience because I’m picky as hell.
00:09:02.850 –> 00:09:19.980
Ashley Berman Hale: And knew that there was money missing saved him a bunch of money. They got bought out by Overstock and so we got tossed in I got brought down to the exact office there to help out and had someone say, here’s a giant fucking spreadsheet. This is pay per click. Can you figure it out.
00:09:21.390 –> 00:09:26.670
Ashley Berman Hale: And that was tough. And I said, I don’t like this. And I like cool. How about XML sitemap, have you heard of those
00:09:27.750 –> 00:09:35.940
Ashley Berman Hale: So the way that I got started as just trying to figure out how to do that for a big site with lots of inventory. I went and asked questions in a forum, I believe so strongly and
00:09:36.360 –> 00:09:44.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Sharing public information and helping each other. So while I was asking and waiting for an answer. I decided to answer some other questions and got stuck here.
00:09:46.170 –> 00:09:58.800
Ashley Berman Hale: God there’s ultimate nerd forum environments for me to learn in and for me to be moderately accepted by and then I kind of hopped around a bit and found myself very comfortably nestled in the technical SEO spot for a software company.
00:10:00.690 –> 00:10:00.960
00:10:02.640 –> 00:10:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: High five.
00:10:04.710 –> 00:10:14.130
Ashley Berman Hale: High five. That’s, I mean, I’m still a really good. Well, no, I’m not. I’m still a really good dishwasher and a moderately okay waitress. So I’ve got backup plans.
00:10:14.730 –> 00:10:16.590
Jamie Alberico: How many friends today. Gary Owens now.
00:10:17.070 –> 00:10:17.820
00:10:19.020 –> 00:10:20.250
Ashley Berman Hale: My, my arms.
00:10:21.690 –> 00:10:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Around children. So, you know,
00:10:25.170 –> 00:10:26.640
Jamie Alberico: fallback plan is ready.
00:10:28.740 –> 00:10:40.350
Jeff Louella: Yeah. During the dark during the.com bust. I went to bartending school because I figured the internet was going to go away. And I was like, you know, one thing people like to do when times are bad is drink so
00:10:41.670 –> 00:10:57.030
Ashley Berman Hale: I believe it. My family owned a bar and like the Dyess state in the tree. So my family were bar owners in Utah, and actually under brewery in Montana and they always did. Okay. Because whenever there is, you know, a lot of money or religious oppression beer helps. Yeah.
00:10:59.100 –> 00:11:03.120
Jamie Alberico: And actually makes really good homemade Kula and it’s almost Christmas Ashley.
00:11:03.240 –> 00:11:04.260
Jamie Alberico: I know well
00:11:04.350 –> 00:11:08.940
Ashley Berman Hale: I will bring you a batch. I’m making a local New York match. But then I’ll be back to Colorado. Nice.
00:11:09.450 –> 00:11:12.240
Jeff Louella: Guy have three gallons of lemon cello going on back here for
00:11:13.110 –> 00:11:15.030
Ashley Berman Hale: Them. He’s not lying it people
00:11:16.770 –> 00:11:21.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Dang. All right, jack you got plans later I’m gonna hang out with you.
00:11:21.990 –> 00:11:23.790
Jeff Louella: All right, let’s do it. I got tons of stuff here.
00:11:24.600 –> 00:11:26.160
Jeff Louella: The whole wall whiskies over here to
00:11:27.510 –> 00:11:30.150
Jamie Alberico: Why are we not doing this from just garage.
00:11:30.420 –> 00:11:31.080
Jeff Louella: Come on.
00:11:31.590 –> 00:11:34.080
Ashley Berman Hale: All right, Jamie I deferred you long enough. Now you have to tell
00:11:34.380 –> 00:11:43.770
Jamie Alberico: Magical story. I did the coffee kicking. I was supposed to be a player, right, which is a weird thing to say. And I guess I can certainly do that.
00:11:44.190 –> 00:11:59.520
Jamie Alberico: But that’s where my degree is in my passion was like, I’m gonna write plays and comic books, and then the recession in 2008 head and call times were longer than normal. And I’m trying to contact my student loan folk and find some way to pay them and he
00:12:00.810 –> 00:12:03.840
Jamie Alberico: You know, I was waiting tables at a sushi bar and
00:12:05.010 –> 00:12:12.690
Jamie Alberico: Wasn’t really glamorous bit and got into basically any job that would get me away from cutting my fingers and carrying
00:12:14.010 –> 00:12:15.750
Jamie Alberico: His family without being pushy, the end of the day.
00:12:20.790 –> 00:12:23.760
Jamie Alberico: It’s a really where my stories prematurely.
00:12:26.640 –> 00:12:29.010
Jamie Alberico: Like I did other things at some point somewhere.
00:12:31.320 –> 00:12:44.160
Jamie Alberico: I was a blogger Outreach Manager. That was my first gig, which is pre Penguin on if you are trying to connect to me on LinkedIn. Right now, I would offer the pro tip of remove
00:12:45.510 –> 00:12:48.720
Jamie Alberico: link building from your title before you send that letter.
00:12:48.720 –> 00:12:54.570
Jamie Alberico: Susan, thank you. I’m sure you’re a lovely human I’ve just been hurt before by choosing to copy pasta.
00:12:56.730 –> 00:13:04.320
Jamie Alberico: To the job and house for e commerce company. We like to me doesn’t products and I look back and go, Oh, it’s so cute little that
00:13:05.550 –> 00:13:12.750
Jamie Alberico: actually ended up working for Ashley. So here’s where I story interconnected. Yeah.
00:13:14.010 –> 00:13:26.580
Jamie Alberico: I interviewed a local agency and then local Jeannine the first interview, do you think is great. Like, we’re gonna put you on a video interview with our had tech SEO. We were like team Tomahawk
00:13:27.510 –> 00:13:27.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, that’s
00:13:28.380 –> 00:13:29.970
Ashley Berman Hale: Bad racial appropriation.
00:13:31.500 –> 00:13:33.570
Jamie Alberico: Sorry, I’m stating historical facts.
00:13:33.600 –> 00:13:35.370
Jamie Alberico: admitting to whitewash history right now.
00:13:36.720 –> 00:13:38.580
Jamie Alberico: And we’ve learned better and we’re doing better.
00:13:38.610 –> 00:13:41.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just have a lot of apologies in life.
00:13:44.130 –> 00:13:57.390
Jamie Alberico: Hashtag relatable well interview with Ashley, I’m there was this this magical creature who knew all this world of technical SEO is just like a PG podcast. What kind of language. Can I bring to the table right now and reenact
00:13:57.780 –> 00:13:58.950
Jacob Stoops: Wherever you’re comfortable with.
00:14:00.870 –> 00:14:01.320
Jacob Stoops: George
00:14:02.760 –> 00:14:03.000
Jeff Louella: You’re
00:14:03.870 –> 00:14:05.760
Jamie Alberico: In trouble if I tell if I
00:14:06.120 –> 00:14:11.640
Jamie Alberico: Tell the internet that it was love at first Cocker so I’m interviewing with Ashley and we’re talking
00:14:12.360 –> 00:14:26.160
Jamie Alberico: I don’t remember what the deal was I think about previous job and what it was like waiting tables and somehow the story of an individual thing rather cantankerous king came up and actually
00:14:29.100 –> 00:14:33.060
Jamie Alberico: Miss, miss a big like always being a cock sucker. When you’re that guy.
00:14:34.830 –> 00:14:41.430
Jamie Alberico: On a moment we bonded and the person that hired me immediately most tech out to john Schilling, at that time, because they took us. He goes, where
00:14:41.820 –> 00:14:48.780
Jamie Alberico: And the bathroom children have both Marketing SEO traditional style and dev didn’t really have a new should have our own just yet.
00:14:49.410 –> 00:15:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I picked them several months they, you know, kick it back to me and be like, Yeah, I want you to join the team and that time I like waiting for Android little cards like, Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to interview I really want to work with Ashley.
00:15:04.050 –> 00:15:16.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And I will do anything once somebody flatters me and we have great chemistry. So it was, it was awesome, because it was really important to me to always do some peer collaboration with technical SEO, in particular, just like you do peer reviews. When you’re coding
00:15:17.850 –> 00:15:22.050
Ashley Berman Hale: And it’s really important to me to reach back and bring more women, along with me so
00:15:23.730 –> 00:15:34.410
Ashley Berman Hale: I wasn’t far ahead and I’m certainly am a decent click behind Jamie now because she’s, she’s had a really fast trajectory. But the fact that I can bring more women on to a technical team was really fucking awesome.
00:15:36.180 –> 00:15:40.080
Jamie Alberico: It was 100 recent article women on that game. Yeah, yeah. There were two of us.
00:15:41.370 –> 00:15:41.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Math.
00:15:41.670 –> 00:15:42.030
Jeff Louella: Jackie.
00:15:42.780 –> 00:15:43.290
00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:47.040
Jeff Louella: It’s awesome. So
00:15:47.640 –> 00:15:58.080
Jacob Stoops: So I think the first thing I would ask is what is it about technical SEO that excites both of you will like why because there’s there’s all kinds of different types of SEO like
00:15:59.070 –> 00:16:06.090
Jacob Stoops: Depending on like different bat. It’s like you almost get to pick and choose what kind of SEO you like to do, and I feel like
00:16:07.650 –> 00:16:22.620
Jacob Stoops: You kind of have to be able to dabble in a little bit of everything. But I feel like over the course of time people develop their specialty based on you know what they what they enjoy most. So what is it about technical SEO specifically that you guys enjoy
00:16:23.580 –> 00:16:32.460
Ashley Berman Hale: I like thinking about the evolution of it. I always think of the adage that, you know, back in the day, everyone was their town doctor and you’re going to college. This was also your dentist.
00:16:33.060 –> 00:16:41.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Let that sink in for a second and then, you know, we started getting better and getting specialist. So I think we’re in a really cool time of SEO where there are these deep specialists.
00:16:42.600 –> 00:16:51.360
Ashley Berman Hale: I got into technical SEO because I was just so curious. Like, that seems so smart and clever and an interesting
00:16:53.310 –> 00:17:01.170
Ashley Berman Hale: That I wanted to learn it and I wanted to learn from smart people. Also, I am just a shitty marketer, like the anti marketer. I can’t write
00:17:01.770 –> 00:17:17.460
Ashley Berman Hale: Like if someone asked me write a blog, I would rather quit my job I’ve come close before a video the nine. The people who hired us who were very gentle and patient, they definitely gave up after making me white write one blog, and I, I just, I can’t promote and so for me.
00:17:17.490 –> 00:17:21.510
Jamie Alberico: For like 4000 words, it’s still one of the best resources on
00:17:23.580 –> 00:17:24.780
Jamie Alberico: Security at that time.
00:17:24.900 –> 00:17:25.830
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, well, I
00:17:26.160 –> 00:17:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Wrote Gordon Duff and beautiful.
00:17:31.050 –> 00:17:33.390
Jamie Alberico: White Paper, essentially. So let me give you credit
00:17:33.810 –> 00:17:34.080
00:17:36.240 –> 00:17:43.500
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, not liking it. It’s really hard, whereas the technical stuff. I am a voice and a snoop. And that’s why I like the Internet.
00:17:43.860 –> 00:17:54.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I snoop on people in my free time and I snoop on your site during work time and that’s why I love it. I like to go find problems and tinker and figure out what somebody busted and how we can make it better.
00:17:55.860 –> 00:17:56.400
About you, James.
00:17:58.410 –> 00:18:10.860
Jamie Alberico: Oh, I fell in love with technical SEO I missed it. I was hired for cascade and as a marketing SEO went to work on the blog and all that, but in my domain was, you know, monitoring our
00:18:11.430 –> 00:18:19.800
Jamie Alberico: keywords and we were, I think, the second or third largest e commerce site for restaurant equipment on suddenly all of my rankings just
00:18:20.340 –> 00:18:29.100
Jamie Alberico: fell out they’ll drop the bomb dropped them and maybe we can figure out what’s going on. And that led down and it’s really good 11 day binge.
00:18:29.520 –> 00:18:43.740
Jamie Alberico: Like some people go to Vegas when they go on a binge. I went like an 11 day binge of like trying to figure out what happened to this website. And at the end of it. It was a home of homebrew CMS, the result we had to break the site. Fine.
00:18:44.880 –> 00:18:59.340
Jamie Alberico: And kind of start from scratch. I had to go here and learn about how to map all of the specific content together, how to figure out when things were no longer useful. That’s my son yelling at us right now, by the way. Hi tank boy. Say hello to the internet.
00:19:02.460 –> 00:19:11.310
Jacob Stoops: By the way, I super impressed that you managed to keep talking without breaking stride as you let your cat in and open your curtains. That was pretty. That was pretty awesome.
00:19:12.300 –> 00:19:16.290
Jamie Alberico: Sorry internet tank takes precedence on all matters. Yeah.
00:19:18.390 –> 00:19:22.830
Jamie Alberico: That’s, yeah. I fell in love with mechanical co authoring getting that chance to
00:19:24.060 –> 00:19:35.100
Jamie Alberico: Say what we say a dying site. We have to go through to make a series of very dramatic changes and that rebuilding at home growing CML and increasingly great band of it.
00:19:37.950 –> 00:19:40.020
Jeff Louella: I think it comes down to a lot of
00:19:41.040 –> 00:19:55.350
Jeff Louella: A lot of people get here, and that’s one reason I love like the origin story he’s because we all get here in different ways and whether you’re coming from a technical background or not it. We all one thing we have in common is that curiosity to dive deep
00:19:55.680 –> 00:20:00.930
Jeff Louella: And 11 days to their I spent. It’s funny, I used to do web development and
00:20:02.070 –> 00:20:19.020
Jeff Louella: Most of my friends were on AT LIKE AFTER MIDNIGHT AND ONCE A while I’m not on online as much that late night. But when I am. It’s still the same people, same developer guys like cuz it’s like some reason my brain starts tweaking and start doing well at like 11 o’clock. Yeah, so
00:20:19.080 –> 00:20:22.740
Jamie Alberico: That weird golden hour of Cannibal logical brain that
00:20:22.770 –> 00:20:25.320
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, we do later in the evening.
00:20:26.760 –> 00:20:38.130
Jeff Louella: So it’s fun. And I’ve spent many, many, many hours just like going down a rabbit hole and no one ever know like at the end of the day, my wife will be like, what are we doing go four in the morning, not just like
00:20:38.670 –> 00:20:45.510
Jeff Louella: I don’t know. I was trying to get some code work and sometimes it’s just you missed a period somewhere and now it’s two in the morning and
00:20:45.780 –> 00:20:46.020
00:20:47.070 –> 00:20:47.760
Jamie Alberico: fancy clothes.
00:20:51.090 –> 00:21:01.710
Jeff Louella: So, and then having that like coming into the SEO side of things, really, kind of, it’s interesting. It’s one thing I have trouble with with new guys coming into SEO. It’s like
00:21:02.610 –> 00:21:07.290
Jeff Louella: I want to learn technical SEO and I’m like, are you willing to stay up for 10 days and try
00:21:07.890 –> 00:21:21.180
Jeff Louella: Out some piece of something that just drives you crazy. You can’t go to sleep until you figure it out and and you can’t teach that, of course, and it’s one of those where we trying to figure out what like how do I get that into a lot of my team. How do I get into them and
00:21:21.930 –> 00:21:23.010
Jamie Alberico: Either. How do I do that.
00:21:23.100 –> 00:21:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Cheryl ambition interview process. You just give them two pieces of drinking a paperclip go kidnap and see
00:21:30.810 –> 00:21:33.720
Jamie Alberico: If they can do is that you’re new to this.
00:21:34.020 –> 00:21:34.950
Jeff Louella: Never thought about that one.
00:21:35.250 –> 00:21:36.210
Jacob Stoops: MacGyver style.
00:21:36.690 –> 00:21:45.900
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, I mean I was figuring out how to make an unusual shape spec for they had the actual app items when
00:21:46.350 –> 00:21:56.730
Jamie Alberico: I was a game changer for me a call. I can go ahead and make all these API calls. And I can begin to reuse this work and, you know, each time I do I swap out, pick up, pick and choose configuration and
00:21:57.210 –> 00:22:12.270
Jamie Alberico: Let me scale up so they get good pieces learning to be a Technic technical SEO is after you’ve gone through and burn yourself out on an insane rabbit hole that you know showed you some great things as to how do I read that information.
00:22:13.980 –> 00:22:19.020
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re failing nine and 10 times tinkering around then SEO technical SEO for you.
00:22:20.040 –> 00:22:26.220
Jamie Alberico: So you want to fail, like a flying SPACE MONKEY and plume of fireworks and we have a career for you.
00:22:27.690 –> 00:22:41.250
Jacob Stoops: One thing I am finding interesting is I think three out of four of us have a background in the in the arts. So I come from a graphic design background. We’ve got an art history background.
00:22:41.760 –> 00:23:00.390
Jacob Stoops: And then kind of a playwriting background. And it’s like, That’s not very technical stuff I’m I mean I’m sure there is some technicality to it, but it’s not like code in as my in laws say Jake works on computers and really don’t, um,
00:23:02.190 –> 00:23:05.190
Jamie Alberico: I mean, check out gun applies the code and the playwriting
00:23:05.220 –> 00:23:05.670
Jacob Stoops: Right and
00:23:06.060 –> 00:23:07.890
Jamie Alberico: They got enough one a bit of fire and three
00:23:08.940 –> 00:23:22.410
Jacob Stoops: I just wonder where the not even necessarily the the technical SEO. The, the SEO part of it. But with that kind of a background amongst all of us, where do we feel like
00:23:22.980 –> 00:23:26.340
Jacob Stoops: The, the need and the passion because I’m very passionate about.
00:23:27.150 –> 00:23:36.060
Jacob Stoops: Technical SEO as well, although I don’t like to be bucket it as a technical SEO. I like to be bucket it as just more of a general like jack of all trades, but
00:23:36.630 –> 00:23:49.800
Jacob Stoops: There is a certain passion for getting in and getting my hands dirty and, you know, with a website and coming from a graphic design background. I just wonder like sometimes. Where did that come from.
00:23:49.890 –> 00:23:50.340
Ashley Berman Hale: I just
00:23:50.730 –> 00:24:06.780
Jacob Stoops: I can’t even put my put my finger on it because graphic design is more art, whereas I feel like technical and coding and building websites is a little bit more science. So I don’t know, maybe I feel like. And I guess I needed some balance in in the second half of my life.
00:24:07.380 –> 00:24:13.710
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have I have pretty strong feelings about that after being chastised for mocking my degree.
00:24:15.210 –> 00:24:19.530
Ashley Berman Hale: Listen, my dad looked at me and rolled his eyes and he said, good luck paying for college on your own.
00:24:20.160 –> 00:24:25.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But art history is one of those degrees, where people are like, what the hell are you going to do with that so
00:24:25.800 –> 00:24:29.430
Ashley Berman Hale: I will tell you that the greatest thing I learned from my degrees to spend time looking
00:24:30.150 –> 00:24:39.030
Ashley Berman Hale: And critical thinking. Because what you can do is you can uncover individual parts of a painting or learn about someone’s life or what was going on in the culture was going on in the economy.
00:24:39.570 –> 00:24:42.270
Ashley Berman Hale: With diseases were being spread based on the iconography.
00:24:42.750 –> 00:24:51.210
Ashley Berman Hale: And when you look at someone site, you’re essentially stripping back layers of. Where are they getting their imagery. What’s the content. What’s the history of the site and how many hands gone through
00:24:51.870 –> 00:25:01.860
Ashley Berman Hale: And then you pull back further to see what the bones are and where the skeletons are hidden the bad ones, the broken bones. I don’t know where I’m going with this. Yeah, but
00:25:01.890 –> 00:25:06.810
Jamie Alberico: Someone redesigned it and it was like that fresco about the will and his woman repainted.
00:25:07.140 –> 00:25:07.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, the none.
00:25:07.980 –> 00:25:10.530
Ashley Berman Hale: None that repainting yes we have done many
00:25:11.520 –> 00:25:12.540
Sites in our life.
00:25:13.860 –> 00:25:23.490
Ashley Berman Hale: But it does feel like there’s a really good intersection of I think Fine Arts and Humanities help teach people to be open about humans and to look critically
00:25:24.090 –> 00:25:37.380
Ashley Berman Hale: At what they create. And so while I have a laughable degree to some people, and I’ll be the first to make a joke. I really don’t think I could do what I do today without having spent the time and learning how to unravel the story from that degree.
00:25:39.030 –> 00:25:46.410
Jacob Stoops: I think that’s a great point night I honestly I never thought about it that way. And I remember being in college and thinking a little bit. The
00:25:47.220 –> 00:25:53.400
Jacob Stoops: The same thing as I was kind of getting getting deeper. Maybe that’s why it never actually worked worked out for me.
00:25:54.000 –> 00:26:11.850
Jacob Stoops: In terms of the graphic design in college and kind of taking that into A into a career because I was worried about money and how I was going to pay for things and so on and so forth. And it’s not necessarily unless you’re really, really, really good or really rare.
00:26:11.850 –> 00:26:16.770
Jacob Stoops: Talent not saying SEOs aren’t talented, but I think
00:26:17.850 –> 00:26:19.380
Jamie Alberico: At that again from the machine.
00:26:19.770 –> 00:26:21.030
Jamie Alberico: Right, while you’re in a job.
00:26:21.060 –> 00:26:35.010
Jacob Stoops: Great. You don’t even know. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like the timing for me was just right because this is like mid 2000s. And as I was flaming out of college SEO was
00:26:36.570 –> 00:26:47.640
Jacob Stoops: A great opportunity that not a lot of people could could do at that point in time. And I was like, well, well, there’s my differentiator. There’s what, there’s. What can make me unique and I feel like a lot of people
00:26:48.540 –> 00:27:08.580
Jacob Stoops: Ended up like that, in terms of looking looking for something else and not necessarily knowing what it was and not being able to put your finger on it. But before you know it, you’ve got a job in SEO at that time. Not a lot of people knew how to do which made it incredibly valuable.
00:27:09.900 –> 00:27:12.450
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. Was it was pretty that’s kind of
00:27:12.720 –> 00:27:14.700
Jamie Alberico: My philosophy.
00:27:15.960 –> 00:27:36.090
Jamie Alberico: And I find that my analytics philosophy is if if L statements for trying to muscle. So I absolutely deplorable and how good your do my mid term on the meaning of the word completely terrible back knowledge now deeply, deeply value that code is just living, we’re looking at it. Yeah.
00:27:37.980 –> 00:27:55.980
Jacob Stoops: So one thing I detected and Ashley, I’m calling you to the carpet again. And the reason I’m calling you to the carpet, not necessarily calling you to the carpet in a negative way we do talk a lot about self doubt and imposter syndrome and how
00:27:57.000 –> 00:28:11.940
Jacob Stoops: Powerful that can be and based on kind of what you had said about the writing and not necessarily feeling like you’re a good writer. And I’ve actually i feel like i’ve read your, your stuff for quite a while so like I think you’re doing something right.
00:28:13.830 –> 00:28:22.350
Jacob Stoops: Like, do you ever feel a sense of imposter syndrome and like self doubt. And I don’t know, I just, I always like to dive into that ask
00:28:22.770 –> 00:28:23.670
Jamie Alberico: You actually
00:28:25.470 –> 00:28:29.580
Ashley Berman Hale: Do I every single waking minutes, um,
00:28:30.600 –> 00:28:31.410
Ashley Berman Hale: No, I think that
00:28:31.470 –> 00:28:38.460
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, it’s a pendulum. I think that, in general, I feel like I am utter bullshit at most things
00:28:38.970 –> 00:28:46.470
Ashley Berman Hale: But the one thing that makes me feel good about myself and about the work that I’m doing is when I can help somebody else, whether it’s to solve a problem or
00:28:47.130 –> 00:28:53.280
Ashley Berman Hale: To get a better job I end up being this random career counselor and helping people get good jobs which I actually like I love doing.
00:28:54.960 –> 00:28:59.610
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really struggle with my knowledge and I had to come to terms with. I’m never going to be the
00:28:59.820 –> 00:29:05.220
Ashley Berman Hale: smartest person in the room. But if you’re the kind of person that surround yourself with smarter people like you’re in pretty you’re in a pretty good spot.
00:29:05.490 –> 00:29:12.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I may not be the most clever, but I do like to learn and I have an appetite to learn and to try to understand so
00:29:13.410 –> 00:29:21.600
Ashley Berman Hale: imposter syndrome is really, really, really, really real. And I suffered in other areas of my life, including being a parent and playing a sport, but
00:29:22.230 –> 00:29:28.500
Ashley Berman Hale: If you can find one thing about yourself that you can put work toward that you can feel good about I’ve found that it allows me to sort of keep going.
00:29:29.010 –> 00:29:40.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And when I can’t. I call Jamie and she usually tells me to buck up that I am an important person with, you know, capital T thoughts and I deserve to be here and I can help people so
00:29:41.340 –> 00:29:46.620
Ashley Berman Hale: But it is something I struggle with. And it’s not even this passive struggling, it’s, I mean, I can’t even tell you I have
00:29:46.950 –> 00:29:54.450
Ashley Berman Hale: So I have OCD, but like obsessive thought patterns and one that’s been in my head for about 17 years is waking up and just wanting to scream into the void Mia, what the fuck am I even doing
00:29:54.990 –> 00:30:11.070
Ashley Berman Hale: What is this like and you could probably go back through my Twitter and see like how many times I’ve actually tweeted tweeted that out is like what am I even doing to help. Um so yeah I don’t recommend it but if anyone wants to talk about the old capitalized syndrome from here.
00:30:11.220 –> 00:30:25.320
Jacob Stoops: Understand in the reason I asked was, and I hope it didn’t come across as rude. Um, I saw I suffer from it as well. It’s like it’s, it can be crushing sometimes and for me.
00:30:26.160 –> 00:30:42.840
Jacob Stoops: Part of digging myself out of it was that this podcast going and feeling like, hey, I am good enough to go and talk to all of these really smart people, and I do know enough to be able to hold my ground.
00:30:43.560 –> 00:30:53.640
Jacob Stoops: With some of the best best folks in the in the industry and there’s just, it’s not just here, it permeates a lot of different parts of my life, and it is it is a daily
00:30:54.420 –> 00:31:08.580
Jacob Stoops: A daily struggle, and I know like it has been other than SEO. In general, probably the most frequently reoccurring subject across every episode of the podcast. So in the industry for whatever
00:31:09.300 –> 00:31:22.050
Jacob Stoops: Reason, you’ve got a bunch of people suffering from imposter syndrome. And it’s, I just, I find it quite amazing because of how many smart people there are, that people
00:31:23.190 –> 00:31:32.760
Jacob Stoops: That are that are that are incredibly, incredibly talented don’t seem to believe in their self and I just keep asking why, why is that, and
00:31:33.330 –> 00:31:45.030
Jacob Stoops: I think one of the best things that can come out of this podcast is to let people know. Like, you’re not alone. Some of the best people in the industry have self doubt literally all the time.
00:31:46.710 –> 00:31:48.600
Ashley Berman Hale: All the time. All the time and
00:31:48.690 –> 00:31:50.700
Jamie Alberico: I think our industry is made for it, though.
00:31:50.910 –> 00:31:51.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, it really is.
00:31:52.950 –> 00:31:55.260
Jamie Alberico: Our end everything we do.
00:31:55.740 –> 00:31:56.040
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.
00:31:56.130 –> 00:32:02.010
Jamie Alberico: I’m there is very much the chance. You’ve been down this rabbit hole for so long. You come back up. You like Melbourne coast.
00:32:03.360 –> 00:32:09.540
Jamie Alberico: You’re no longer sure if you’ve gone full broken Roomba or have you figured out something incredibly valuable. Yeah, yeah.
00:32:09.990 –> 00:32:17.940
Jacob Stoops: And I feel like there are times, especially if you work on the agency side. I haven’t necessarily experienced this quite as much in house but like
00:32:18.780 –> 00:32:37.890
Jacob Stoops: There’s a lot of pressure and you can be the the best SEO, but if you’re putting a situation where there’s just no opportunity to succeed, doesn’t really matter how good of an SEO, you are. For example, if a client doesn’t implement your recommendations and then nothing
00:32:37.890 –> 00:32:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Happens right so
00:32:39.570 –> 00:32:48.210
Jacob Stoops: I think even the best SEOs go through a lot of failure and hopefully a lot of success as well, right, or we wouldn’t have jobs, but I think there’s a fear of
00:32:48.780 –> 00:32:55.620
Jacob Stoops: Failure with our clients as well as success and sometimes it’s in our hands and a lot of times it’s not
00:32:56.610 –> 00:33:08.910
Jacob Stoops: And I think for me, like there are times when that part of its crushing like okay, what can I say to make them think differently or to make them realize that hey, this is actually
00:33:09.330 –> 00:33:16.950
Jacob Stoops: We’re doing. We’re doing well, even if the results don’t fight look like it yet, stuff like that. So there’s a lot of pressure.
00:33:17.700 –> 00:33:21.840
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, sorry. Is it okay if I hop back in here cuz yeah
00:33:22.380 –> 00:33:35.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, and you’re dealing with such smart people. Right. I might think I’m clever and then I take two days off to roller skate and drink myself into oblivion, and come back and the entire industry has changed. So it’s very easy to feel like you’re slipping.
00:33:37.080 –> 00:33:44.550
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really, really love this new trend that our industry has of kind of coming together to support each other because I have a pretty big gap.
00:33:45.150 –> 00:33:54.540
Ashley Berman Hale: In my SEO career as far as paid jobs and it was because of the toxic environment and the culture that we were in it just didn’t feel good it felt kind of gross like there was some shitty things happening.
00:33:56.220 –> 00:34:05.460
Ashley Berman Hale: But now I i love that people are talking more to each other. If you don’t know Mary Davies and the industry. She has created groups that help people and give them a safe place to talk about
00:34:05.760 –> 00:34:16.740
Ashley Berman Hale: Their personal struggles that I find really incredible. And for me, personally, I’ve I’m trying to be very brave capital, be brave, about talking about my mental illness and my doubts and the bad days that I have
00:34:17.430 –> 00:34:25.950
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have felt not only accepted but embraced and holy shit, I still have a job like some of the stuff I say in public. I can’t believe but
00:34:26.460 –> 00:34:30.990
Ashley Berman Hale: Being able to be out there and be vulnerable hasn’t hurt my career as far as I know.
00:34:31.740 –> 00:34:41.340
Ashley Berman Hale: But I would just encourage anyone if you’re in that place and you feel any sort of really from talking about it. You’re in good company and not in good company. As in, like, hell yeah let’s have a depression party.
00:34:42.900 –> 00:34:52.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I have thrown other parties that are better, but you’re in good company in that there’s generally some really compassionate people here that can empathize and can stand by you.
00:34:53.460 –> 00:34:59.880
Ashley Berman Hale: And sometimes that’s all you mean like sometimes I get a lot just from going to Jamie’s house or meeting somewhere and working side by side without even talking
00:35:01.290 –> 00:35:04.170
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve worked remotely for 10 years. So that’s very important.
00:35:05.220 –> 00:35:07.290
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, come on, really.
00:35:08.160 –> 00:35:08.730
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re three
00:35:09.180 –> 00:35:13.890
Jeff Louella: Now you’re if three of being removed, I guess, somewhere around there and I do
00:35:14.400 –> 00:35:24.810
Jeff Louella: sometimes miss having that camaraderie in the office where you you can’t talk about some of the stuff that’s on your, you know, things that are on your team. I mean, I really feel after watching a lot of the tech SEO boost stuff.
00:35:25.350 –> 00:35:35.550
Jeff Louella: I’m like, wow, I think, I think I need to really step up my game because 80% of that was about Python and machine learning, which
00:35:35.970 –> 00:35:45.900
Jeff Louella: I do think has you know a place. It just seemed like a whole conference based on it kind of made me like think overnight. I’m all of a sudden going like, I’m so far behind. I think it’s just why
00:35:47.760 –> 00:35:49.170
Jeff Louella: I always felt like I was pretty
00:35:49.170 –> 00:35:56.280
Jeff Louella: Much always a little bit of a step ahead. But I think one. Now we have with there is such a great tech community.
00:35:56.730 –> 00:36:03.330
Jeff Louella: That it’s like, oh, I think the tech guys aren’t the ones that are out there like pounding your chest, saying, look at me, and think now we have
00:36:03.990 –> 00:36:13.590
Jeff Louella: More of that community. And you know what the tech SEO slack group that were in there and I’m just like, wow, there’s like a million tech SEOs i thought i was like a one of a kind.
00:36:17.490 –> 00:36:21.120
Jeff Louella: And now there’s just yeah like that whole conference. I was watching going okay
00:36:22.650 –> 00:36:25.410
Jamie Alberico: I mean jr was like, and I made my own internet
00:36:25.470 –> 00:36:25.980
Jeff Louella: Yeah.
00:36:26.310 –> 00:36:27.510
Jamie Alberico: The bar was raised.
00:36:28.200 –> 00:36:33.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, the best like I swear to God, if I wasn’t married. He’s in trouble because those brains.
00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:41.730
Jacob Stoops: Looking I’m smart and like, I’m like, people like Jr. I’m like damn it I blame you. It’s your fault for being so smart, and I’m so
00:36:43.260 –> 00:36:43.410
Jacob Stoops: And
00:36:43.920 –> 00:36:44.490
Jeff Louella: So,
00:36:44.790 –> 00:36:45.930
Jeff Louella: He’s got that Southern charm.
00:36:45.960 –> 00:36:48.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Tuesday. Oh yeah, well,
00:36:49.080 –> 00:36:50.640
Jamie Alberico: Cupid, though, and I think we need to I
00:36:50.640 –> 00:36:51.270
Jacob Stoops: Know, I know.
00:36:51.990 –> 00:36:52.590
Jacob Stoops: Matt.
00:36:52.650 –> 00:36:54.750
Jacob Stoops: Was being facetious. This
00:36:56.220 –> 00:36:56.490
Jamie Alberico: But
00:36:56.550 –> 00:37:02.340
Jamie Alberico: Something that I’ll share my story here about feeling stupid and Ashley really being there for me because it’s like
00:37:04.770 –> 00:37:17.700
Jamie Alberico: So we went to tech. Are you into Google IO together. My first I, oh, I think it was 2016 HF, we went to. And if you’ve ever been to IO, you can go to
00:37:18.450 –> 00:37:32.400
Jamie Alberico: This panel to panel to panel with the most amazing experts in their field who knows so much on are bringing so much to move the community forward on to celebrate. I spent the day
00:37:33.150 –> 00:37:40.770
Jamie Alberico: Together concert every year and I spent the concert in bathroom so 27 hyperventilating and having an absolute panic attack.
00:37:41.220 –> 00:37:48.810
Jamie Alberico: On why I was there on how I had taken a spot from someone who could event here and using this information actually done something with it.
00:37:49.770 –> 00:38:00.900
Jamie Alberico: It was it was a terrible, terrible sensation. But at the end of it. I learned to offer myself grace and in those moments where I am clearly the dumbest kid in the room.
00:38:01.410 –> 00:38:12.450
Jamie Alberico: And that’s okay because I’m still in the room, and I’m willing to ask those questions that seem so one on one. And I feel like I’m willing to
00:38:12.960 –> 00:38:20.940
Jamie Alberico: Learn from people who are a lot smarter than me so Ashley prides herself on and curating up selection of really, really beautiful and brilliant people
00:38:21.900 –> 00:38:37.290
Jamie Alberico: Being around her and I learned to get there myself learn that it’s okay to feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Like that’s officially now my happy place is an absence of gravity just picking a point in my horizons. Right.
00:38:38.250 –> 00:38:50.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I, I considered a special talent to be surrounded by people that are smarter than you and then instead of feeling self conscious. If you can find comfort there and excitement there, then you’re you are good. I’m going to do.
00:38:50.670 –> 00:38:52.200
Jamie Alberico: Like roller derby for the ego.
00:38:52.500 –> 00:39:01.050
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, yeah. I’m also the worst roller derby player, but if you can find comfort in getting your actual ass kicked. Then it’s for you.
00:39:02.280 –> 00:39:03.690
Jamie Alberico: Humble here again because you just
00:39:03.720 –> 00:39:05.340
Jamie Alberico: Want on fallible brawl.
00:39:06.990 –> 00:39:09.570
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, I wonder, be prom queen, you guys.
00:39:09.630 –> 00:39:11.070
Jeff Louella: I’m so nice.
00:39:11.400 –> 00:39:13.050
Jacob Stoops: How long have you been doing roller derby.
00:39:13.350 –> 00:39:28.980
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, two and a half years, something like that. Not very long. It’s the first sport. I’ve ever played and I am an overweight, you know, working person who sits down for the last 36 years of my 36 year life. So it was a trip and a challenge. But heck
00:39:30.090 –> 00:39:38.580
Jacob Stoops: What, like what puts you because roller derby is not something like people do very often. So like you’re sitting around two or three years ago, like
00:39:40.140 –> 00:39:43.920
Jacob Stoops: Maybe I think I’ll go do roller derby like how did that come about.
00:39:45.060 –> 00:39:54.900
Ashley Berman Hale: So, um, I have two very fabulous daughters and the oldest one was into real interview she had read a graphic novel called roller girl, which is a fantastic graphic novel.
00:39:55.500 –> 00:40:01.290
Ashley Berman Hale: And she was interested in doing it, but I didn’t know anything about it. And we found out that there was a local team for adults and juniors
00:40:02.910 –> 00:40:11.550
Ashley Berman Hale: And she wasn’t quite old enough, and so I told her that I would give it a shot and see how this whole roller derby thing worked and
00:40:12.300 –> 00:40:20.670
Ashley Berman Hale: I gave it a shot and definitely threw up like my first night there, but was like dude, this this gear is expensive. I have to do this three months. Otherwise, like
00:40:21.150 –> 00:40:26.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve made a financial mistake which makes me nervous. So I stuck on for three months and just kept going.
00:40:27.270 –> 00:40:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a, it’s a funny environment. I know it seems you know a bit abrasive. But I will tell you that I have found
00:40:33.720 –> 00:40:44.040
Ashley Berman Hale: More community with other women there than I have any other place in my life more acceptance more diverse women, they will absolutely murder you on the track, but they’re the first ones to pick you up off the floor.
00:40:44.970 –> 00:40:56.700
Ashley Berman Hale: Constant compliments and encouragement, so maybe I’m there for the ego. I’m not the best roller skater. But it just feels really good to be around genuine people that want to see you succeed, but also are not going to go easy on you.
00:40:57.150 –> 00:40:59.190
Jacob Stoops: And that are going to elbow you in the face.
00:40:59.850 –> 00:41:09.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Sometimes I mean that’s not fully legal, but hey, but you know they’re the first person is to drive you to the ER and bring you a muffin while you’re waiting for the x ray so
00:41:10.950 –> 00:41:24.180
Ashley Berman Hale: So it’s a really solid community. I would say that, you know, when we work on computers so much. I would encourage you to get a hobby that involves your hands or physically wearing yourself out that’s been really important for the balance of my mental health to
00:41:26.340 –> 00:41:30.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Anyway, joined realtor becomes skate with me to cover letter b.com alright, just kidding.
00:41:31.050 –> 00:41:31.650
Jacob Stoops: Farther
00:41:32.640 –> 00:41:38.550
Jacob Stoops: Now, forgive me for my roller derby knowledge are there men’s roller derby circuits.
00:41:38.610 –> 00:41:39.120
Ashley Berman Hale: There are
00:41:39.180 –> 00:41:40.710
Jacob Stoops: Indeed, wow.
00:41:40.770 –> 00:41:50.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, there are Myrna which is my favorite acronym is the one and it’s the men’s roller derby Association. There’s a great team in Denver, where Jamie is there, same all over the country.
00:41:51.210 –> 00:42:05.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Still pretty female dominated. It’s a for women by women volunteer run sport all nonprofits. So we have a pretty strongly, but in the men’s roller derby women are also welcome to join. So usually when I meant to be one or two women.
00:42:07.770 –> 00:42:09.660
Ashley Berman Hale: But yeah, get out there strap on your skates.
00:42:09.900 –> 00:42:12.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I had no one to help you come up with a penny Derby name.
00:42:12.720 –> 00:42:14.190
Ashley Berman Hale: I got you. Oh.
00:42:14.670 –> 00:42:19.740
Jeff Louella: No, I’m gonna be taking my daughter to we were she’s found a new love for roller skating.
00:42:20.250 –> 00:42:30.630
Jeff Louella: And I mean, she’s only nine now but she’s I told her I was gonna take it a roller derby and she’s super excited but then the the league that’s around here went on break. But it could THEY COME BACK THE END OF JANUARY so
00:42:31.560 –> 00:42:36.960
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re on break too but Jeff, you said ping me offline because my nine year old was the one who got me into it.
00:42:37.020 –> 00:42:40.650
Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. Well, hopefully it doesn’t get me into it into it but
00:42:43.020 –> 00:42:47.070
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s hard to roller skate and not smile so straps escapes on
00:42:47.430 –> 00:42:57.840
Jeff Louella: Agreed. Now, they were fun. We go out there. We every kid in my house has a sport and my one daughter. We finally found. She’s an artist. She’s the artist of the family, but we found her sport, which is roller skating so
00:42:58.020 –> 00:43:06.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Isn’t that crazy how it works. Um, so, Jacob and Jeff, if you’re okay with this. Since we talked earlier a little bit of imposter syndrome. I’m going to
00:43:07.230 –> 00:43:22.650
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m going to say off topic. Real quick, and want to put them on a last thought out there on that item is just that we’ve had a lot of suicides in our industry, the past few years, there’s been I think I know this. There’s been too many one is too many. But there’s been too many
00:43:23.700 –> 00:43:35.280
Ashley Berman Hale: So I just open invitation. If anyone out there is Phil and rough and wants to chat. I am wicked good at bad memes mom jokes inappropriate comments and drunk texting, so
00:43:36.960 –> 00:43:39.480
Ashley Berman Hale: Just reach out and talk to someone. Yeah, I would.
00:43:39.990 –> 00:43:43.380
Jacob Stoops: I would say the same. I would offer the same invitation. I’ve
00:43:44.460 –> 00:43:51.540
Jacob Stoops: I mean, not everybody has been able to have experience with people going through that I do have
00:43:51.990 –> 00:44:05.340
Jacob Stoops: Experienced not necessarily myself but somebody very close to me has been battling with that and having those types of thoughts. So I’m maybe a little more well suited than than, than the next person. So I would also offer
00:44:06.660 –> 00:44:09.840
Jacob Stoops: Community to anyone that needs to talk and
00:44:11.130 –> 00:44:17.100
Jacob Stoops: Please reach out reach out you’ve got you’ve got friends, you’ve got family. Don’t let it go too far.
00:44:18.420 –> 00:44:19.470
Jacob Stoops: Don’t let it go too far.
00:44:20.820 –> 00:44:22.440
Jacob Stoops: Okay, we just got
00:44:22.620 –> 00:44:27.150
Ashley Berman Hale: Really really taken like I am so sorry I’ve cried twice so
00:44:27.210 –> 00:44:27.900
Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be done.
00:44:28.380 –> 00:44:30.720
Jacob Stoops: Once I’ve almost tear it up. So, man.
00:44:31.080 –> 00:44:31.530
God, I’m gonna
00:44:33.270 –> 00:44:34.740
Jacob Stoops: Get me here. Um,
00:44:35.430 –> 00:44:42.690
Jamie Alberico: Well, I think it was monotone robot and I’ve been a beautiful because we are fallible soft, squishy people
00:44:43.380 –> 00:44:52.140
Jamie Alberico: And being real humans is what keeps us together in a world that’s based on ideas and one TV respond partners and
00:44:52.950 –> 00:44:54.900
Jacob Stoops: Those that were not a robot came from.
00:44:42.120 –> 00:45:50.160
Jamie Alberico: Not a Robot coming from Ashley Berman Hale. Yeah, her bio section of the website says, I’m not a robot and she was sharing this off to me.
00:45:51.270 –> 00:45:56.970
Jamie Alberico: Just fantastic getting tickets and make a new branch all together, have an interest in doing well, can I
00:45:58.050 –> 00:46:04.050
Jamie Alberico: Have to Google domains bought the domain fun drinking game. By the way, just go when you get drugged by random domains.
00:46:04.800 –> 00:46:17.160
Jamie Alberico: Robot may have been purchased in one of those moments, a couple of beers and it’s a it’s very effective way to help people understand, you know, I guess, to where I said, all those captures you fill out. I’m not a robot. But I thought
00:46:20.190 –> 00:46:21.420
Jeff Louella: I recently bought a domain.
00:46:22.440 –> 00:46:23.520
Jeff Louella: Lasers and bacon.
00:46:23.610 –> 00:46:25.800
Jeff Louella: Because I figured. What’s cooler than lasers and bacon.
00:46:26.340 –> 00:46:26.820
Jamie Alberico: That that
00:46:29.250 –> 00:46:30.690
Jacob Stoops: We can do with that site. Yeah.
00:46:31.830 –> 00:46:37.710
Jeff Louella: You know that goes right now it’s in the vault of 30 other web domains, I one day, one wants to start so
00:46:39.210 –> 00:46:43.830
Jacob Stoops: Wow, what are, what made you think that and how much you had a drink.
00:46:46.020 –> 00:46:52.710
Jeff Louella: You know, I was looking, I was looking up laser engraving machines. And I was like, you know, it makes lasers cooler bacon.
00:46:54.900 –> 00:46:56.970
Jacob Stoops: Bacon just makes everything cooler, I guess.
00:46:57.300 –> 00:46:59.310
Jamie Alberico: Why are you custom engraving, the bacon.
00:47:00.750 –> 00:47:01.620
Jeff Louella: Know,
00:47:01.680 –> 00:47:02.820
Jamie Alberico: If any wedding thing.
00:47:03.270 –> 00:47:04.020
Jamie Alberico: Could be.
00:47:04.800 –> 00:47:06.630
Ashley Berman Hale: Market market it do it now.
00:47:09.690 –> 00:47:10.560
Ashley Berman Hale: The only thing that
00:47:10.950 –> 00:47:16.230
Jacob Stoops: Does not make cooler what sounds cool is vodka, that that
00:47:16.260 –> 00:47:17.280
I’ve had baked out
00:47:18.870 –> 00:47:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Bad
00:47:20.640 –> 00:47:22.350
Jamie Alberico: flavor to it. That’s not okay.
00:47:23.730 –> 00:47:27.840
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been working a Bloody Mary, but that’s the only time she
00:47:27.840 –> 00:47:30.510
Jamie Alberico: Really apply practical application of that about God.
00:47:32.430 –> 00:47:32.970
Jacob Stoops: I’m
00:47:34.230 –> 00:47:36.300
Jacob Stoops: writing and speaking so
00:47:37.740 –> 00:47:47.490
Jacob Stoops: Jamie nationally. I feel like you guys both do a mix or a fair amount of both writing and public speaking.
00:47:48.600 –> 00:47:58.290
00:47:59.520 –> 00:48:08.910
Jacob Stoops: Video with Martin, um, how did that come about and and after that question. I’d love to get into the public speaking side of things, but I wanted to ask
00:48:08.940 –> 00:48:09.990
Ashley Berman Hale: You. I mean, is
00:48:11.550 –> 00:48:17.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I just would do. That is so cool that you are that person. I just know it tickles me. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up because it’s pretty bad.
00:48:18.240 –> 00:48:18.510
00:48:19.830 –> 00:48:25.680
00:48:26.700 –> 00:48:28.020
Jamie Alberico: That started
00:48:29.460 –> 00:48:36.540
Jamie Alberico: Doing migrations international talk to Brighton SEO. I think that was my second or third talk ever you want to count meetups as well.
00:48:38.160 –> 00:48:49.890
00:48:50.430 –> 00:49:01.230
Jamie Alberico: I’m terrible at time zones absolutely awful at it ended up being like three in the morning seven my leg TARDIS bath road my blue hairs all a frenzy on
00:49:01.920 –> 00:49:08.070
Jamie Alberico: The screen based up and they realized oh my face, my face was like 15 feet wide right now because that’s the Google office.
00:49:08.880 –> 00:49:16.350
Jamie Alberico: And I just happen to be lucky enough to me bar, and as he he had just joined the webmaster team, I believe, Brighton was one of his first talk
00:49:16.980 –> 00:49:23.070
Jamie Alberico: On and just had a really lovely time talking with the team and he will show up too bright in with our blue hair becomes
00:49:23.700 –> 00:49:33.780
00:49:34.380 –> 00:49:39.210
Jamie Alberico: Up to do this video me an amazing producer, your brother chance to meet and she’s on
00:49:40.110 –> 00:49:54.390
00:49:55.440 –> 00:49:59.940
Jamie Alberico: Getting our redesigned first place in 2014 we launched in 2015
00:50:04.620 –> 00:50:16.620
00:50:17.640 –> 00:50:20.970
Jacob Stoops: Still have a lot of trouble with crawling and I say,
00:50:21.000 –> 00:50:23.670
Jamie Alberico: 2014 when we got the project greenlight it took
00:50:24.360 –> 00:50:26.220
Jacob Stoops: He says to them, getting
00:50:26.280 –> 00:50:28.830
Jacob Stoops: Done SEO and 2014 so
00:50:29.160 –> 00:50:32.220
Jamie Alberico: No, no, we were rebuilding the site at that time and
00:50:32.580 –> 00:50:33.270
Jacob Stoops: Maybe a few weeks.
00:50:33.510 –> 00:50:38.610
Jamie Alberico: After Google announced they were deprecating the Ajax crawler the site went live
00:50:39.150 –> 00:50:39.510
00:50:40.560 –> 00:50:46.470
Jamie Alberico: I mean, we definitely did a plane SPACE MONKEY. Like, let’s see what happens. We actually called that project space party.
00:50:47.760 –> 00:50:59.970
Jacob Stoops: Nice. So, so with the with the public speaking, you guys. I feel like both do a fair amount of public speaking and or public moderating. What does that been like
00:51:02.580 –> 00:51:03.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Gary
00:51:06.930 –> 00:51:13.350
Ashley Berman Hale: So I man. I’m a bit of a reluctance speaker, and I’m very not polished, but I really like doing it.
00:51:14.100 –> 00:51:21.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, so, hashtag. If you’re, if you don’t have production level value conferences and you want to hang out and talk about cool things I’m game.
00:51:21.900 –> 00:51:30.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, but I use it as a way to personally push myself to go deeper into topics as well as just to make friends. So I’ve been working from home for 10 years
00:51:32.190 –> 00:51:35.520
Ashley Berman Hale: So I need to get out of the house, a couple times a year. So
00:51:35.520 –> 00:51:36.180
Jeff Louella: That was
00:51:36.300 –> 00:51:47.100
Ashley Berman Hale: So is pretty important. And then it’s just it’s a bit of a self challenge. So I had, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. As a kid, and took five years of speech therapy so
00:51:47.820 –> 00:51:53.340
Ashley Berman Hale: As a big fuck you to my jeans I decided to do more public speaking as a high school or an adult. So
00:51:53.820 –> 00:51:59.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Part of that is just a little personal renegade but it’s fun. I would love to say that more conferences, though.
00:52:00.330 –> 00:52:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: Bring more people to present collaboratively like I love presenting with Jamie and with other people that I know.
00:52:06.450 –> 00:52:09.840
Ashley Berman Hale: It helps to get you more bang for your buck again that peer review and peer editing.
00:52:10.800 –> 00:52:19.680
Ashley Berman Hale: And moderating is also fantastic instead of having the same conference organizers. If you’re welcome have other people in the field. There’s just so many cool opportunities there so
00:52:20.160 –> 00:52:26.730
Ashley Berman Hale: Like I said, I’m not a natural speaker, I definitely get nervous. I am known to throw up either before or after or both.
00:52:26.790 –> 00:52:27.060
00:52:28.650 –> 00:52:39.630
Ashley Berman Hale: You just but I still enjoy doing it and really appreciate it opportunities, but it’s it’s wild. It’s weird right i mean i go straight social blackout when I’m up there. Well,
00:52:39.870 –> 00:52:43.500
Jeff Louella: Actually, you also started the rally SEO Meetup group right
00:52:43.560 –> 00:52:45.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh, you bring it back, Jeff.
00:52:46.470 –> 00:52:48.180
Jeff Louella: Well, I mean, to go from not being
00:52:48.210 –> 00:52:55.260
Jeff Louella: Liking to speak to starting, you know, the largest Meetup group about SEO. That’s kind of like
00:52:55.530 –> 00:52:57.510
Jeff Louella: I’m jealous that I don’t live in Raleigh, sometimes
00:52:58.920 –> 00:53:03.300
Jeff Louella: I make it up there a couple times, you know, during the conferences and things like that. But at the same time.
00:53:04.080 –> 00:53:13.920
Jeff Louella: The community here, there seems really awesome. And it seems like anyone. It’s like a lot of helping each other grow and and it seems like an awesome community that’s
00:53:14.520 –> 00:53:23.580
Jeff Louella: You know, where we have people like Jr and Patrick and and you know every time I go or see anyone there. I’m like, wow, you all live in Raleigh, like how Raleigh become
00:53:24.150 –> 00:53:33.870
Ashley Berman Hale: Thing. Okay, so I will tell you that is one of my proudest moments. Um, I guess I’m like a little bit of a mama by heart, even though I’m not, I should not be left alone to raise any children but
00:53:34.860 –> 00:53:45.030
Ashley Berman Hale: It was when I was so I had moved to North Carolina after my father and my brother had died and decided on a fresh start moved to a place I never knew and
00:53:46.500 –> 00:53:53.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just convince my boss to let me use his office space to maybe try to get a few people together off hours to talk about this stuff.
00:53:54.030 –> 00:54:10.500
Ashley Berman Hale: And luckily for me. I was like, do you want to own it. And he said, No, go ahead, which was pretty awesome. But the first local. So here the first rally SEO meetup was definitely in the single digits. And I made homemade pies to try and bribe people to show up, um,
00:54:11.790 –> 00:54:18.090
Ashley Berman Hale: So it started out very, very small. But it was a really, really cool way to develop speaking skills for me.
00:54:18.390 –> 00:54:24.780
Ashley Berman Hale: But also to try to influence the market, a little bit like I told you I took a big long break from SEO because it was a little sticky so back then. I was
00:54:25.290 –> 00:54:35.130
Ashley Berman Hale: On a little bit more of a rampage of kindness. So I made it free and I made sure that they were different types for all levels that they were takeaways and actionable insights and that
00:54:35.670 –> 00:54:42.540
Ashley Berman Hale: All I was trying to do was enable local businesses to either do the work themselves or to know enough to be able to hire without liability.
00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:57.690
Ashley Berman Hale: And that sucker grew. I mean we out group at times. I was just begging businesses like hey, if I can get everyone to buy a beer. Can I, you know, hang out in this corner of your bar for an hour tonight and also if no one’s going to buy beer. I’ll just buy them all. It’s fine.
00:54:58.860 –> 00:55:07.650
Ashley Berman Hale: But it it grew and grew quickly and I can be a little anti social by nature. And so I had a partner after the first year to come and fill Buckley
00:55:08.430 –> 00:55:16.230
Ashley Berman Hale: Who is part of that like Patrick jr group. I think he’s a little header IBM. He’s fantastic but he is a social butterfly so
00:55:16.680 –> 00:55:23.670
Ashley Berman Hale: It was another situation where it couldn’t have been the way it did without partnering with somebody. So sharing is caring and what a cool way to start off
00:55:24.090 –> 00:55:28.740
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, my professional SEO career and kind of restarted after feeling like the industry was a little sad.
00:55:29.340 –> 00:55:39.570
Ashley Berman Hale: But I you know I left it in good hands and they’ve continued to do awesome things and I actually got to go back last year to speak for the 10 year anniversary how how rad, is that it’s like my babies in the double digits.
00:55:40.230 –> 00:55:45.270
Jamie Alberico: It’s awesome rampage of kindness is the most on brand thing I’ve ever heard.
00:55:46.740 –> 00:55:55.110
Ashley Berman Hale: That, that’s good. That’s all right, I got a t shirt rampage of kindness that goes along with them. The relentlessly casual label, I, I also appreciate
00:55:55.410 –> 00:56:07.650
Jacob Stoops: There’s an old at iOS or videos at video game believe called rampage. You should just steal that logo and close rampage of kindness and there you go. You got your own t shirt brand.
00:56:07.890 –> 00:56:10.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Cool, Jacob. Now I’m not going to get any work done today. I blame you.
00:56:10.950 –> 00:56:14.160
Jamie Alberico: Go discounted work branding and work.
00:56:18.900 –> 00:56:25.800
Jacob Stoops: Oh man, I’m so deep crawl, I’d be remiss to not talk about deep crawl. What’s it. What’s it like working the depot.
00:56:26.220 –> 00:56:37.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Ship date is the best I’m you know I’m optimistic but not naive. So, but I left a couple jobs, one that was a really toxic environment, one that was
00:56:38.550 –> 00:56:45.270
Ashley Berman Hale: Great, but just not the best fit. And I was feeling really low on my capabilities to feel like a productive you know employable human being.
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:53.580
Ashley Berman Hale: And deep called crowd grabbed me and I will tell you I have had so much joy working here with the people that I work with the software.
00:56:54.330 –> 00:57:00.540
Ashley Berman Hale: And just the flexibility to learn so deep crawls uh you know it’s a software. It’s a crawler enterprise level. So it’s like
00:57:01.080 –> 00:57:15.330
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a lot like Screaming Frog who are amazing people that make a great product, but it’s sort of on steroids, so you’re able to grab historic data crawl in the cloud trend everything. And there’s just a ton of ways to define the data and filter right within the tool.
00:57:15.750 –> 00:57:17.400
Jacob Stoops: It also does it on your computer.
00:57:18.570 –> 00:57:25.410
Ashley Berman Hale: It doesn’t shut down your computer because it’s like, you know, your fan won’t even get hot. So that’s, you know, big selling point
00:57:26.070 –> 00:57:32.250
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s just a fun tool it’s it’s really interesting. I’ve really enjoyed working here, I would say if anyone hasn’t tried it.
00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:39.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Just ping me I would be happy to run across from you and you can poke around obviously not a salesperson because I’m really into giving it away for free but
00:57:40.710 –> 00:57:48.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I mean there’s cool data. So if you ever want me to run a sample crawl kick it over. I’m happy to do so you can, yeah, if anyone wants to bug me on Twitter. That’s probably the best place.
00:57:49.230 –> 00:57:57.600
Jeff Louella: In the cross seems to have been, you know, I guess the one of the first like SAS platforms to start hiring SEOs, you know, and I see now.
00:57:58.050 –> 00:58:01.050
Jeff Louella: You know, now you’re going to be competing against Patrick because he went over to
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:12.480
Jeff Louella: H refs. But in general, they’re like, it seems deep crawl like this, the knowledge base has really grown, which is which is great. Like the articles or webinars or something. I look forward to every time they get launched
00:58:12.570 –> 00:58:17.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh my gosh, what a smart team, right. So first of all, I could meet Patrick and an arm wrestle so
00:58:17.700 –> 00:58:19.320
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m not right, but
00:58:20.520 –> 00:58:26.790
Ashley Berman Hale: But I might team is really great. The marketing team does a lot of crazy cool stuff so mean, everyone knows like Sam and Rachel and Jen and
00:58:27.240 –> 00:58:34.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Those are people who aren’t traditional SEOs and they’re smarter than most people I know, like they are awesome. My team we’re professional services team.
00:58:35.250 –> 00:58:43.440
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s six or seven of us, depending on the day but also hiring. So if you’re a crazy fabulous curious tech SEO and you want to work with me, which
00:58:43.950 –> 00:58:54.060
Ashley Berman Hale: Godspeed but ping me there too. So the company’s doing well. They just went through Series B funding and I’m just excited to work with more fantastic people, but they’ve really done something special.
00:58:54.510 –> 00:59:04.530
Ashley Berman Hale: In terms of priority to prioritizing data and good things for clients as well as making a really, really fantastic team and hiring obviously humble people right so that’s great.
00:59:06.240 –> 00:59:12.600
Jamie Alberico: So you guys always have a sandwich for me and you guys always have the Chargers that I forgot plane somewhere.
00:59:13.740 –> 00:59:14.280
Jamie Alberico: On a T.
00:59:14.700 –> 00:59:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: Shirt and Casey spell something like you have like the most. I don’t know. Hearing a material company like we will take care of anyone. So again, if you’re ever curious whether it’s job right here on my site for free, like just paying us for a helpful group.
00:59:28.830 –> 00:59:29.760
Jamie Alberico: Very good human
00:59:30.300 –> 00:59:32.670
Ashley Berman Hale: With sandwiches with sandwiches.
00:59:34.200 –> 00:59:39.390
Jacob Stoops: Oh so want to make sure we’re respectful of time I
00:59:40.440 –> 00:59:52.740
Jacob Stoops: Don’t think we’re gonna have time for news. I think we’re, we’re probably not going to, because we’ve had such wonderful conversation that is flowing. So naturally I don’t think we’re going to deep dive into technical SEO. I think we’ve talked
00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:59.580
Jacob Stoops: Quite enough. I did want to talk about a few more few more things before we wrap up the episode.
01:00:00.240 –> 01:00:13.140
Jacob Stoops: But because you guys have been so awesome to talk to. It’s been one of our most free flowing conversation. So I definitely, definitely. Thank you guys for that. It’s been really good, really good conversation.
01:00:14.640 –> 01:00:27.540
Jacob Stoops: Um, you guys have mentioned several times and I agree. I’ve noticed it. I, I sometimes choose not to take part, because I have a lot of my own thoughts, but you’ve mentioned the
01:00:29.100 –> 01:00:43.830
Jacob Stoops: The level of discourse in the in the industry over probably the last five to five to 10 years and I don’t know. I think I’ve noticed it as well, getting getting better, but it had gotten
01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:54.360
Jacob Stoops: A lot of it’s centered around conferences and whatnot, but it had gotten pretty toxic and pretty nasty there for for a little while. So I was wondering if y’all could
01:00:55.290 –> 01:01:07.020
Jacob Stoops: Talk a little bit about that and why you think it’s maybe gotten a little bit better. Over the course of the last, I don’t know, I feel like maybe the last year, maybe, maybe I’m overshooting that I don’t know but
01:01:07.470 –> 01:01:14.370
Jacob Stoops: I felt it also being really bad and then getting a little bit better. But I don’t know if you guys could talk about that a little bit.
01:01:17.670 –> 01:01:27.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I’m awesome well know, Jamie. You go first because I, yeah, I got to the end of something and I pretend like I’ve been drinking a whole time and I will just eat up all the time here.
01:01:28.320 –> 01:01:29.640
Jamie Alberico: But I love listening to your story.
01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.320
Jamie Alberico: very articulate and
01:01:31.410 –> 01:01:47.220
Jamie Alberico: You know you’ve always been a great mentor for me and this kind of scenario. I honestly can say I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only really been met with kindness from people at these conferences and support. I like to think perhaps that
01:01:48.240 –> 01:01:54.990
Jamie Alberico: I try and bring up there as well. But there’s no critic of really going to be as harsh as my internal one
01:01:55.440 –> 01:02:08.850
Jamie Alberico: So I think keeping her quiet on focused on when I’m there to do maybe take it away from me and giving attention to some of these more interesting moments that I hear about after the fact.
01:02:10.290 –> 01:02:14.580
Jamie Alberico: I haven’t been the first chance I can speak to a new the kerfuffle
01:02:16.620 –> 01:02:25.890
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, and I mean events bring their own level of potential toxicity, the industry and of itself has been a little tough to. So I’ve been in it for about 15 ish years maybe a little more
01:02:26.790 –> 01:02:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, and I did a lot of volunteer work and forums, that’s how I got that’s how I got started in a lot of it and forums can be a really awful, awful place to be, especially if you’re an idiot and just use your regular name Ashley’s everyone knows you’re a girl.
01:02:41.370 –> 01:02:42.600
Jamie Alberico: Was true man.
01:02:43.230 –> 01:02:45.360
Jamie Alberico: I’m not ever gave me with an androgynous name.
01:02:45.480 –> 01:02:51.300
Ashley Berman Hale: I know that so nice. Um, but it is, it’s been bad, but I think in a lot of the ways it’s getting better.
01:02:51.810 –> 01:02:57.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I just want to call out that, you know, I come from a place of privilege, even though it can be tough to be in tech as a woman.
01:02:58.380 –> 01:03:06.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I am already five steps ahead of some other folks, especially people of color LGBT Q that are out like there’s there’s a stiffness there and
01:03:07.470 –> 01:03:14.850
Ashley Berman Hale: I would really like it to be more fluid where people can come in and present and there’s a focus on ideas. I think we are getting there. I think we have warmed the ground so much
01:03:15.450 –> 01:03:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: And I think that I can be a bit spicy unintentionally and very clumsy with my calls to try and make things a little bit more better and inclusive.
01:03:23.820 –> 01:03:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: But for the most part people have been very generous and forgiving in terms of how I approach that and it spawns some really good conversations so
01:03:34.020 –> 01:03:40.140
Ashley Berman Hale: I think we’re getting better and a lot of ways, and I hope to keep saying encouragement in that way. I will see say that
01:03:41.100 –> 01:03:48.900
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s one conference in particular that is really great for me in terms of seeing that as the NGA Atlanta conference to Angular Atlanta conference where
01:03:49.560 –> 01:03:57.930
Ashley Berman Hale: The founder there works hard to make all majority women or people of color and especially women of color speakers without repeating speakers. It’s pretty fantastic.
01:03:59.010 –> 01:04:07.350
Ashley Berman Hale: And it takes a lot of work, like the organizer Zach will be there to tell you, it takes a lot of work to advise any other events, but he’ll tell you that the work is worth it. So,
01:04:08.070 –> 01:04:14.910
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re getting better. I’d like to push a little harder in that area. So leave with kindness, but also psychological safety for everyone to
01:04:16.620 –> 01:04:27.870
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I agree. And having been so I’ll just, I’ll just come right out with it. I am I dislike conferences and it’s partly because I’m anti social
01:04:28.770 –> 01:04:40.290
Jacob Stoops: A little bit. Although I can be social. But I you know I get uncomfortable and nervous in large groups of people. And so that makes a conference for me not very cool.
01:04:43.260 –> 01:04:47.100
Jacob Stoops: I’m like, I’m just really bad at small talk, and like literally
01:04:47.700 –> 01:05:03.390
Jacob Stoops: It makes me sweat just thinking of having to small talk. Not that I don’t like. I like people just fine. But like in large settings. I always feel super, super awkward, which means just by definition conferences are just not my thing.
01:05:04.650 –> 01:05:17.340
Jacob Stoops: But then there’s also, you know, what types of things go on at conferences with respect to harassment and the way people act towards each other and the, the lack of kindness.
01:05:18.510 –> 01:05:23.700
Jacob Stoops: I’ve run. And I don’t know if you have you guys ever heard the term conference circuit SEO.
01:05:24.840 –> 01:05:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Is that a new thing.
01:05:25.680 –> 01:05:32.940
Jamie Alberico: Yes, I turned out on leave, and I understand you correctly or first do the kind of repeating
01:05:33.360 –> 01:05:33.600
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.
01:05:33.960 –> 01:05:37.980
Jamie Alberico: There’s a couple of key speakers, they tend to get things paid for, you’ve got other people
01:05:38.640 –> 01:05:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Yes.
01:05:39.450 –> 01:05:50.250
Jamie Alberico: Please go to our last represented in our community. And it’s very real that a lot of venues are going to charge money, a lot of money for these tickets and and don’t even pay for the speakers.
01:05:51.630 –> 01:05:52.500
Jacob Stoops: Right, right.
01:05:52.920 –> 01:05:53.820
Jamie Alberico: Very prohibitive.
01:05:54.360 –> 01:05:55.530
Jacob Stoops: There are
01:05:56.730 –> 01:06:08.670
Jacob Stoops: In I’m definitely not trying to lump. Anybody, anybody into this but this story for me is very, very specific to some people that I’ve worked with who
01:06:09.420 –> 01:06:17.430
Jacob Stoops: Were what I call a quote unquote on the conference circuit which means they went to and spoke at a lot of conferences and were looked up to by
01:06:17.850 –> 01:06:28.080
Jacob Stoops: A lot of people as subject matter experts. But then when it came time for them to actually work with me together on certain accounts.
01:06:28.800 –> 01:06:38.310
Jacob Stoops: I found that they fell very, very flat in terms of my expectation of their level of quality and what I actually got from them.
01:06:39.060 –> 01:06:51.840
Jacob Stoops: So that has left me with a little bit of a bad taste in my, in my mouth with respect to what I’ll call certain conference circuit SEO. So just in general conferences are
01:06:52.860 –> 01:07:00.000
Jacob Stoops: Not my favorite thing. But what I have enjoyed seeing recently is the increased focus on
01:07:01.260 –> 01:07:11.940
Jacob Stoops: One acting better treating people better and hopefully fewer instances of harassment. I know women, definitely go through
01:07:12.600 –> 01:07:21.780
Jacob Stoops: A lot and I feel like I’ve never been like Jamie, just like you said, it’s always for me been second hand. I feel like every man definitely knows
01:07:22.110 –> 01:07:27.300
Jacob Stoops: Of a woman who has experienced some sort of sexual harassment. But for me, I’ve never
01:07:27.780 –> 01:07:33.780
Jacob Stoops: It’s never been something I’ve witnessed or anything like that. So I’m always only hearing about it secondhand and I’m less than
01:07:34.470 –> 01:07:50.220
Jacob Stoops: Less than aware of when that that type of thing might be happening. If I were aware. I would definitely definitely speak up. So I’m I feel like sometimes in a bit of an awkward position of wanting to speak up and being supportive but ever being like Johnny on the spot for when an event.
01:07:51.300 –> 01:07:55.350
Jacob Stoops: Happens or transpires so little bit of an awkward awkward.
01:07:56.490 –> 01:08:07.890
Jacob Stoops: Position and I would say so obviously that needs to get better. I don’t know how much that is still going on. But I know it was pretty pervasive in the past and super unfortunate.
01:08:08.430 –> 01:08:18.240
Jacob Stoops: The other thing that I’m really enjoying is the emphasis on speaker balance. I, I, I have a hard time when I see
01:08:19.710 –> 01:08:26.730
Jacob Stoops: An SEO team at a company that is entirely and I’ve experienced this a lot in the past entirely male dominated
01:08:27.540 –> 01:08:31.710
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, they’re celebrating hiring the first female CEO and a team in 2019
01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:34.080
Jamie Alberico: I mean that’s an incredibly sad.
01:08:34.440 –> 01:08:39.810
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s it’s really sad. And I have a hard time with conferences where I look at the
01:08:40.200 –> 01:08:49.350
Jacob Stoops: The speaker lineup and I don’t see a picture of somebody with color. I don’t see a picture of somebody who’s female or you see it, but there’s not nearly enough balance so
01:08:50.070 –> 01:08:58.680
Jacob Stoops: Not something that I think is, is a good thing. And something that I think is trending in the right direction. I don’t think it’s entirely there.
01:08:59.220 –> 01:09:10.920
Jacob Stoops: But I would like to see more more conferences and more companies strive for that balance and not balance for the sake of balance but balance because you really believe
01:09:11.760 –> 01:09:19.470
Jacob Stoops: That that those those people and I’m definitely one of the privileged people really bring value in a different perspective.
01:09:19.920 –> 01:09:27.480
Jacob Stoops: Not just hiring or booking because you need a certain ratio, right. So that’s something that I’m hoping
01:09:28.110 –> 01:09:37.260
Jacob Stoops: Gets a little bit better. But again, as I’ve said before, because I’m kind of an outside observer. I don’t choose to go to a lot of conferences.
01:09:37.950 –> 01:09:48.600
Jacob Stoops: I’m more kind of I feel like routing from the sidelines and trying to push where where I can in my areas of influence which are which are a few outside of my own house so
01:09:50.340 –> 01:10:06.330
Jamie Alberico: I ok here is because that one for me first one I totally understanding the lack of comfort being around that many people I’ve been asked how I seem to to come on stage and my secret ready guys years of practice with a panic disorder.
01:10:06.780 –> 01:10:09.210
Jamie Alberico: Like I have learned how to have a heart attack feel like
01:10:09.210 –> 01:10:18.750
Jamie Alberico: Even the Rolodex prices on keep a calm state so repurpose if you if you’ve been through that you think of it as reclaiming and repurposing all those years of practice.
01:10:19.770 –> 01:10:25.410
Jamie Alberico: And secondly, there are now more groups out here who are advocating to get their women together a presentation together.
01:10:25.710 –> 01:10:33.690
Jamie Alberico: If you are a winless there are used one support women in tech SEO, there is a women in tech SEO Slack channel you can find them on Twitter and on Facebook.
01:10:34.020 –> 01:10:44.190
Jamie Alberico: Joining that conversation. I know some really great conferences coming up that have reached out to them to try and help balance out our speakers find people who are representing very skilled
01:10:45.330 –> 01:10:48.630
Jamie Alberico: Technologies to be on stage and present from their perspective.
01:10:49.800 –> 01:10:53.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah. And if you’re a sweet guy like maybe instead of accepting the panel.
01:10:54.420 –> 01:11:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Or accepting the speaking gig. Why don’t you recommend somebody else make it easier on the event organizers because they always say they can’t. But I guarantee there’s someone around you.
01:11:03.870 –> 01:11:08.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Who may be a first time or second time speaker, but has really incredible things to say.
01:11:08.670 –> 01:11:14.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I think if you speak too much often you’re missing out on that constant learning that you need in order to stay on top of the industry.
01:11:15.330 –> 01:11:19.290
Ashley Berman Hale: Or if you’re never speaking, then you’re missing out on an opportunity to find in your craft so
01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:29.610
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s great that some people will have reached that pinnacle, and they are trusted and loved and everyone likes to see them speak but it means nothing. If you don’t turn around and homework, you know, two more people up.
01:11:29.640 –> 01:11:31.110
Jeff Louella: So I would say share the spotlight.
01:11:31.590 –> 01:11:43.800
Ashley Berman Hale: And I don’t have a huge network or you know much influence but if anyone out there who hasn’t spoken before wants to speak. If I could put you in contact with anyone or any conference. Like, I’m happy to help.
01:11:44.850 –> 01:11:49.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Said, I don’t have a ton of influence, but I’m willing to use it to just get more voices up there. We should all do that.
01:11:51.150 –> 01:11:59.730
Jeff Louella: Yeah, it’s funny. I’ve been working on a little side project where I’ve downloaded the titles of every SEO speech.
01:12:00.840 –> 01:12:11.280
Jeff Louella: By the last like two years. And my goal was, I was going to try to make like a SEO speech generator that just put out a topic because that’s one of the things when I
01:12:12.120 –> 01:12:25.440
Jeff Louella: Think about doing any type of speaking. I’m like, what am I going to talk about that no one else is talking about. So I was like, hey, and I can want to play with AI and machine learning. I was like, maybe I can make a generator just generates topics. And here’s your next speech.
01:12:26.970 –> 01:12:28.020
Jamie Alberico: I would love to see this.
01:12:28.230 –> 01:12:42.330
Jeff Louella: Play. Yeah, it was kind of gonna be tongue in cheek, because I just wanted to like I wanted to be bad AI to so it made it funny but so that is in the works. It’s. But one thing I noticed was when I would Dee doop. There were a lot
01:12:43.350 –> 01:12:48.930
Jeff Louella: So that was one of the things that were there was a lot of that was like duplicate on air and it made me really think like
01:12:50.100 –> 01:12:56.220
Jeff Louella: You know, going and a lot of it might have been like the digital summits, where people travel and do the same presentation all across the country.
01:12:56.940 –> 01:13:03.090
Jeff Louella: But there were a lot of like the same things we were talking about and that’s one thing with the tech SEO boost conference.
01:13:03.450 –> 01:13:13.530
Jeff Louella: It was like something totally different copy way off guard. Because even last year, maybe a Catalan or one person talked about AI or machine learning and Python and this year was 80% of the people.
01:13:14.130 –> 01:13:24.450
Jeff Louella: Which which was was pretty interesting. But in general, I love the, you know, I want to go out and talk a little bit more, but I really love to do it more in the local level and trying to
01:13:25.080 –> 01:13:30.840
Jeff Louella: There’s not a huge SEO community here in Atlanta. So something I’d like to start to put together and build out
01:13:33.660 –> 01:13:47.100
Jeff Louella: But what I’m just kind of like to end the show just kind of asking a certain question and just kind of advice like if you were someone who was starting off in the SEO world right now. What kind of advice would you give someone who is starting out.
01:13:52.440 –> 01:14:03.840
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m yeah I’m used to always jumping in first here so I’m cognizant of that. I’m sorry. I would just say stay curious and stay kind, um, that’s it.
01:14:04.770 –> 01:14:06.720
Jeff Louella: That that’s just a range of kindness.
01:14:07.500 –> 01:14:08.340
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.
01:14:08.370 –> 01:14:10.110
Jamie Alberico: Well, I am page the kindness.
01:14:10.560 –> 01:14:18.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, a rampage of kindness, please. And I have this, uh, this is kind of gross, but I’ve been a professional coaching and stuff like that, where they say hey,
01:14:19.230 –> 01:14:27.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Create a tagline for yourself. And that sounds a little silly, but I have one. And I’ve been using it for over a decade and it’s it’s really done me well and
01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:42.000
Ashley Berman Hale: My personal tagline is stupid work. So that means a lot of different things to me. But part of that is just staying curious and you know being nice to people and figuring out where you can help rather than stand on the shoulders of others. So whatever you do, do good work.
01:14:42.780 –> 01:14:43.860
Jeff Louella: Awesome. What do you think, Jamie.
01:14:46.950 –> 01:14:57.480
Jamie Alberico: I would say that there are no dumb questions engineering a room where you only understand and 20 week of what’s going on. That’s okay. I’ll take notes.
01:14:58.350 –> 01:15:06.690
Jamie Alberico: Ask for the handle. What do you mean by this word, particularly in technology. I have some English. I’m looking in bed with dev teams like stocks.
01:15:07.500 –> 01:15:18.060
Jamie Alberico: And people use different words, getting the same thing on half of our value of SEO is being able to map up those synonyms and translate between these teams.
01:15:18.420 –> 01:15:24.420
Jamie Alberico: Isn’t the end. We all want to make good things. We all have this desire to those good things to be found and
01:15:24.840 –> 01:15:39.450
Jamie Alberico: This is how we get there is by being willing to be humble and say, I don’t understand what that means. Could you explain it. Just keep learning. Even when it hurts your head and you crying about the install
01:15:41.850 –> 01:15:48.480
Ashley Berman Hale: So many times I’ve like cried, and I’m like, I don’t understand. And then an hour later I’ll be like, holy shit, I figured it out like
01:15:48.840 –> 01:15:55.590
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, it’s a crime, and it certainly feels worth it. Like you’re just hitting the wall heading the law hitting a woman suddenly and make sense and it’s beautiful.
01:15:56.190 –> 01:15:57.150
Jamie Alberico: Yes, and have a
01:15:57.270 –> 01:15:57.810
01:15:58.890 –> 01:16:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I think tech SEOs walk that line between the
01:16:02.820 –> 01:16:03.960
Jamie Alberico: Federal ambition.
01:16:08.970 –> 01:16:14.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, oh yeah, she is sorry last thought. Don’t be afraid to ask them questions. All right. I promise I’m done talking. Yeah.
01:16:17.430 –> 01:16:34.710
Jeff Louella: Awesome. Well, we’d love to thank you for coming on the show me, I think, is such great conversation that we had, I feel that you two together. It was it was a great idea. And we’re trying to put you separately, but I think together me. It was just awesome and made the conversation flow better
01:16:35.010 –> 01:16:35.970
Jacob Stoops: Dynamic Duo
01:16:36.600 –> 01:16:37.320
01:16:38.850 –> 01:16:39.270
Jacob Stoops: Alright.
01:16:39.750 –> 01:16:40.230
Jeff Louella: So my
01:16:40.560 –> 01:16:41.250
Jamie Alberico: Life, mate.
01:16:41.670 –> 01:16:45.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, I love you very much. Jamie, it’s good to have a way
01:16:45.360 –> 01:16:45.990
Jamie Alberico: Of you to bed.
01:16:47.760 –> 01:16:48.750
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye guys
01:16:50.400 –> 01:16:50.970
Thank you.Post Views: 1,017
By Jacob Stoops — 7 months ago
We discuss how she started in marketing, how it led her to SEO, and how she eventually made it to Hallmark.
We also discuss a ton of other topics including:
- What it’s like to get laid off, how to cope with failure in a way that makes you stronger,
- Agency versus In-House
- Deep dive into Holiday SEO & Snowman poop
- Talk about evergreen content strategy
- Our thoughts on Google’s BERT
- Google Search Console’s new page speed reports
- Work life balance
- Importance of relationships
And much more.
00:00:00.840 –> 00:00:14.009
Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops and we are back with another episode of the page to podcast and today we have an extra special guest, and given that the
00:00:14.610 –> 00:00:27.120
It has turned into the holiday season. This guest is extremely appropriate to have on right now, but with us is Kelly stanzi search specialist at Hallmark. How you doing, Kelly.
00:00:27.630 –> 00:00:29.550
Good. How are you, I
00:00:29.580 –> 00:00:37.230
Am I am awesome and before we, before we kind of jump in. I’m Jeff. Say hi. Sorry, I forgot to introduce you
00:00:37.290 –> 00:00:38.040
Hey, howdy. Hey,
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We don’t care about Jeff.
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Yes, we do. Jeff.
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I appreciate. Thank you.
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We are. I was just gonna say before we kind of dive in. I don’t know if you guys have been noticing it like two events for me recently.
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Have triggered the fact that, and I can’t believe it, that it is holiday season, yet again, one happened about four weeks ago and it infuriated me when I walked into Home Depot and the Christmas trees were already up
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Like Sons of bitches. It’s October 1 like
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What the heck it and it just seems to be getting
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earlier and earlier and earlier every year and then yesterday I was in the line at Starbucks and I didn’t realize that it was the official release of their new holiday cups and
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Cups. Yeah, to put it in perspective. Like, I went today. I’m kind of a Starbucks fiend, and I went today and I went yesterday.
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Yesterday, I had to wait in line for like 30 minutes and it was insane. Today I went through the drive thru in under like under four minutes or five minutes. So it’s holiday season. So it’s really appropriate that you’re on Kelly.
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You know i i think i actually have one of the best holiday season stories ever as far as seasonality goes, I have an 11 MONTH OLD AND HIS BIRTHDAY IS NOVEMBER 27 and last year. Cyber Monday. Remember e commerce retail day job.
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His birthday was the day after Cyber Monday last year. So I actually checked into the hospital and started my maternity leave on Cyber Monday.
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Give him to try me.
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No, no, no. And he was worth it and
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You know what a good deal. Yeah.
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We had absolutely amazing coverage like my team is fantastic but it’s just so funny that I
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My day job at least is at such a seasonally relevant
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Company and oh by the way I’m going to miss the busy season and I didn’t come back until the week after Valentine’s Day, which is also a huge holiday for homework. So that’s kind of funny. Um,
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But then, yeah, even, even on the freelance side the side hustle stuff I end up having quite a bit of seasonality, just because
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I do work with small businesses and nonprofits. So if you’re working with a local photographer, you know her busy season is going to be in October, helping people get ready for Christmas cards and
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Nonprofit nonprofits are scrambling to get their, their donation campaigns ready for the holiday season as well. So it’s like
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Q4 is the linchpin of the entire year.
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It’s the busy season.
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In a for any agency Q4 is always the busy season. That’s where you like. You definitely are expected to put in a lot of lot of overtime. So it’s just call it, it’s just it is what it is. It’s the busy season.
00:03:48.630 –> 00:03:58.980
So Kelly take us take us through your career. Like I feel like I’ve said this a million times. I’m going to say it again in case there are first time listeners, the hallmark of this show.
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Is telling the origin stories of great SEOs. And not only that, but talking about just the Trials. Trials and tribulations of what it’s like to be an SEO day to day in things that are
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Important like work life balance. The, the mental side of things.
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And I, and I kind of want to dive into that, but so take us take us through your career. How did you get to SEO. How did you get to homework.
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Well, I took the winding road.
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I actually started accidentally landing social media internships in college.
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And my degree was an interactive design. So it was loosely relevant like, Oh, I can make this meme. And I can edit this video and publish this podcast and build a landing page, but for the most part, I sort of fell into the social media space.
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And I got hired by one of the agencies that I interned for in their KANSAS CITY OFFICE. After graduation, so moved down here from the Chicagoland area and
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Started working for an agriculture agency and I loved it. Like I was in Florida and FFA and high school and now a farm girl living in the suburbs and
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Then, a year and a half after they moved me to Kansas City. They laid me off. So I’m 23 years old really only knew my boyfriend at the time was now my husband.
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And was trying to figure out what came next. And he was like, you know, the SEO team at the agency that I used to work for
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Actually manages social media for clients to so you should consider applying there and I did and I got it, but ended up realizing that I actually loved SEO way more than I had ever like I was okay at social media and it was cool. I got to brag about some fun projects.
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But I would come to work every day excited about.
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All the things when I was doing SEO.
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And just, I feel like I I found my niche there and ended up kind of
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Getting tapped for a really large clients at that agency had and got to enjoy the dedicated specialist life for a year, which
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Anyone that has ever had just one client at an agency knows what a big deal. That is, and really got to spread my wings.
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About two years after I started at that agency there was kind of a shift in the business model and the ownership and I decided it might be time to see if there was a new chapter on the horizon for me and I
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Kind of on a whim applied for hallmark and got it and I’ve been here for years. That’s a lot of Q force to serve.
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But I’m throughout that entire journey I’ve also been doing freelancing on the side with small businesses nonprofits niche groups I helped with a website for a pig show in Texas, one time.
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Because I’m one of the few SEO specialist out there that does have agricultural industry experience so that I keep coming back to that. That’s hilarious.
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Um, yes, I do have a poop question later so
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Okay, I can, I can probably answer that for you.
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As a mother, you should be an expert in that at this point.
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Um, so yeah, I didn’t. I cut you off there. I couldn’t resist the end to talk about poop.
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So you you got laid off. What was that like
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It was awful. Um, you know, I had
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My boyfriend now has been probably six months and I just remember like hanging out at his apartment was nothing to do just crying because I had always
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focus so much of my identity and my career. Up until that point. And even after that.
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I really didn’t kind of understand how to shift like my self worth, out of my career as much until I became a mom.
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But when you’re that invested in your career and your this young, hot shot that had this cool agency job and you are going to take the world by storm. And then suddenly you’re unemployed and a city 500 miles from your home, trying to figure out what you’re going to do.
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That’s scary. And I think I was more scared of not knowing who I was, or what my career was going to be than I necessarily was about being far from home and a place I’ve only lived for just over a year.
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Obviously I decided to stay and put my roots down deeper here in Kansas City. And it’s the best decision I’ve ever made, but at the time it was
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Just so much uncertainty and such a blow to who I thought I was because
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I was supposed to be taking the world by storm and and forging a path for myself and now I’m just like standing here like okay
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I can pay the bills for two weeks on my severance okay this is nice.
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And it worked out. It was actually I recently wrote a piece for search engine journal about kind of like the parallels between my
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Mental health journey and my career and like just the the deep intertwining between those two things and
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I made a note of calling out that the best things that have ever happened to me. Usually looked like a disaster at the time. So I really bad breakup in college, losing that first job fresh out of college and falling into a CEO and you know at the time that was
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I’m getting old now.
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I’m not even sure how many years ago that was
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At the time, no SEO or social media really only had like some surface level vanity metrics that you could look at and I got into SEO and looked at this, like depths of knowledge that you could get from Search Console and analytics, even though they had just switched to not provided.
00:10:50.010 –> 00:10:53.370
And that’s not even touching like the SEO specific
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platforms like mas and bright edge or conductor or a dress, you know, we all, we all know the list.
00:11:05.910 –> 00:11:13.500
So I realized that I was actually for the first time really using both sides of my brain. And that was something I needed.
00:11:15.540 –> 00:11:30.720
So yeah, losing that first job and being able to sort of tap into a piece of myself that I didn’t know was there and kind of needed to be fed and nurtured was actually like a happy accident and yeah
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I was gonna ask. So like you. You made an interesting point about like the things
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That at first look like disasters, end up turning out to be really, really good things in your, in your life, and I’m a huge in the same as for me, I’m a huge believer in
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In fate and being in the right place at the right time. And there have been a lot of instances of that in my life. So now,
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With kind of that new outlook when something big like that happens in your life. How has that experience, change the way you attack problems or how is it made you better. How did you pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
00:12:18.240 –> 00:12:18.900
00:12:18.960 –> 00:12:20.100
Get to that good place.
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Yeah. Um, I think it’s really, it’s dependent on the chapter and the situation.
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You know the I’ve mentioned in passing a bad breakup in college. My coping mechanism for that was
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Okay, I’m going to take these out of state internships and like go live my life. So I got to spend a summer living in Sacramento, California. Now for a kid in the Midwest, like that’s a huge experience.
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And that’s the internship that ended up landing to here in Kansas City where I have this amazing, fantastic like said I love
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So yeah i i don’t know i think in that situation. It was like a
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Almost like a kind of juvenile I’ll show you type thing, but then when I got laid off, it was more about, like, okay.
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I think I can take a risk here because I have nothing to lose. I don’t. It’s not like I have a job to worry about. So I did go out on a limb and apply for an SEO team that did some social media, knowing that I would be stretching my my comfort zone. So
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If I had to distill it down to like one coping mechanism. It’s usually
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If I know something’s coming I stew in the dread for forever. And I get super anxious, but once I’m in it. It’s just like, Okay, what now. And yeah, you know, is this, is this a turning point. Do I need to pivot and typically when I have pivoted it’s ended up working out.
00:14:02.880 –> 00:14:03.840
Yeah, I think we’ve all
00:14:05.100 –> 00:14:12.720
Had to pivot at one time. I mean, I’m way older than both you guys so um I pivoted a lot in my career started off you know as web designer.
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It was interesting because everything to me. I think was a
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All luck. I don’t know, it’s weird. It’s interesting. I got it all goes because started off wanting to learn 3D animation.
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Really was bad at that but learned along the way was really bad design, but no one else did it.
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Learned code at the same time and moved into SEO, mostly because I was willing to take those chances and, you know, not many people were
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You know, doing this stuff at the time, and it wasn’t really a, you know, I lived through the.com boom and then bust. Right. I went to bartending school at that night because I was like, well, when the internet goes away.
00:14:59.400 –> 00:15:06.000
I’m gonna be a bartender, because at least I can make some money while I, you know, find something else to do. Luckily, that didn’t happen.
00:15:07.320 –> 00:15:12.930
I mean, I didn’t think it was gonna happen. But I mean, a lot of companies went out of business. At that time, and there was been through.
00:15:13.560 –> 00:15:25.890
A bunch of layoffs. Luckily not on the layoff side, but there were some companies I knew right away, like when it was happening and I was already on the lookout to go somewhere else. Because like you just some people were just sitting there.
00:15:27.090 –> 00:15:27.660
00:15:27.690 –> 00:15:28.080
00:15:29.580 –> 00:15:36.480
So, so yeah, having kind of the insight and just having the bravery to be able to just jump and figure that out.
00:15:36.780 –> 00:15:46.620
Well, and I think there’s there’s something to be said for just when you’re in it. There’s certain level of like survival instincts that he can, like,
00:15:48.180 –> 00:15:53.010
I was, I was very fortunate in that I was only unemployed for two weeks.
00:15:53.940 –> 00:15:54.390
00:15:55.230 –> 00:16:03.450
Yeah, most, most people don’t get that kind of that kind of luck following Ola, and I have not. I’ve
00:16:04.560 –> 00:16:12.150
See, I’ve been in the professional world eight years now and I have not worked at a company that did not experience layoffs while I was there.
00:16:13.200 –> 00:16:24.690
And luckily, I was one of those people only one of those times at one of those companies, but it’s just it’s a fact of the world like organizations re
00:16:25.200 –> 00:16:42.870
Organized they realign their budgets and it’s going to happen if you work in marketing or digital or agency side, whatever your role is client side or on the service side it’s going to happen. And I think a lot of people underestimate.
00:16:44.190 –> 00:16:56.490
Just that drive to just put your head down and solve it when you’re in it because that’s, that’s really where I was. And I remember a whole lot of those two weeks because I was in such like a
00:16:59.370 –> 00:17:01.740
Know the word I’m thinking like tunnel vision.
00:17:03.690 –> 00:17:15.900
For really figuring out what came next. Like I just remember for two weeks. I just, I went to interviews I filled out applications. And I went running. That was a that was only for two weeks.
00:17:17.880 –> 00:17:37.230
But then I did end up getting hired for that first job. And then I had this the first job after the layoff. And I had this like kind of moment where I was like, well, I’m probably not going to be doing what I’ve been doing. So then the survival mode kicked back in because it’s like okay
00:17:38.730 –> 00:17:51.180
Let’s figure this out. Sink or swim and it ended up being fantastic and I had wonderful mentors and that was years ago now and those people are still friends and mentors to me.
00:17:52.470 –> 00:17:54.390
So yeah, I just, I think.
00:17:55.740 –> 00:18:01.140
There’s just something to be said for the tenacity and the stick to witness to just get through it.
00:18:02.730 –> 00:18:12.330
And you underestimate your ability to do it until you’re actually in it. And it’s like, oh, I’m looking back and I survived that. Yeah, sometimes.
00:18:12.390 –> 00:18:15.600
You’re, you’re tougher than you think. Sometimes when you think
00:18:17.220 –> 00:18:22.140
So I’ve actually I’ve only worked on the agency side of things, it’s really been
00:18:23.370 –> 00:18:32.370
Interesting my career path. I’ve always wondered on like going in house, how would it be different than agency life. I feel sometimes
00:18:32.820 –> 00:18:46.440
I have it, like, oh, being in house would be a little slow because I’m only working on one website instead of 50 and then sometimes I’m like hey I would actually want to get something done working on website over 50. What were some of your experiences going from agency to in house.
00:18:46.950 –> 00:18:48.540
Um, it is never slow
00:18:49.260 –> 00:18:49.710
00:18:51.030 –> 00:18:54.600
I’m I’m never bored. That’s great. I think it’s
00:18:56.850 –> 00:19:02.940
Politically, it’s different priorities wise different resources, it’s different.
00:19:04.200 –> 00:19:17.250
But it also depends on the company. There are a lot of agile companies out there that feel a lot more like an agency. And then there’s plenty of agencies that because of the vertical they work in or
00:19:18.630 –> 00:19:31.020
You know regulations within their specialist fields or even just like massive size. They’re not quick and they’re not full of a ton of variety. So
00:19:31.680 –> 00:19:42.540
I and I hate to generalize agency versus in house because really, they’re all they’re all different. You know, my second agency was completely different than my first and
00:19:43.620 –> 00:19:48.600
My internship agencies were completely different than my big kid agencies.
00:19:50.460 –> 00:19:57.210
But at the same time, I think there’s the one big difference is kind of your sense of ownership.
00:19:58.620 –> 00:20:05.100
At the end of the day when your client side. Usually the buck stops at you.
00:20:05.640 –> 00:20:17.820
And you have all this extra risk and accountability that you’re taking on when you’re, you’re the client and you’re the last line of defense against whatever it is that could be going wrong.
00:20:18.420 –> 00:20:25.470
But at the same time, you also like have a way more ownership. I mean, some agencies, you can’t even tell people who your clients are
00:20:25.800 –> 00:20:45.450
So if you do something really cool. You can’t necessarily even brag about it. Whereas on a daily basis. I get to to be openly proud of what we’ve got going on and I can point at that website or the several websites. I’m involved in and be like, guys, I did that. That’s my project.
00:20:47.640 –> 00:20:48.570
00:20:48.840 –> 00:20:52.950
That’s a, you’re right. I think I have a couple of his studies that are just a
00:20:54.090 –> 00:20:56.940
Somebody in this industry to this.
00:20:57.780 –> 00:21:00.180
Yeah well and if I’m
00:21:02.010 –> 00:21:14.160
I mean it’s it’s weird because obviously there’s cons to any job I anytime I talk to a young professional now. Like what’s your, your, you know, major life advice I’m always like, there’s no such thing as a perfect job.
00:21:15.210 –> 00:21:24.270
Every job has its giant pile of poop. And it’s about finding the company whose giant pile of poop smells the least bad to you.
00:21:25.350 –> 00:21:26.730
But they all have good fit.
00:21:30.300 –> 00:21:31.710
And ultimately, like
00:21:33.600 –> 00:21:37.980
I can deal with most piles of poo, but I think
00:21:41.010 –> 00:21:45.120
my train of thought. We started talking about poop. And now I’m thinking about buying diapers later.
00:21:46.920 –> 00:21:58.440
Well, the funny thing is I always say to people like, don’t get me wrong. I like my job, but like if I had a choice. I wouldn’t be working, I’d be off on some island or, you know, who knows who knows where. And I always say like
00:21:58.740 –> 00:22:03.060
Nobody is going to be on their deathbed, saying, I wish, I wish I’d worked more
00:22:03.960 –> 00:22:08.820
Yeah, so that actually is really, really good advice because like I’ve had
00:22:09.090 –> 00:22:22.920
Jobs that I’ve hated and I’ve had jobs that I love. And for me, like, there’s always a reason to find a problem with a job. If you want to find a problem with a job and in something that I’ve had to learn over the course of
00:22:24.270 –> 00:22:39.990
My kind of professional experiences like sometimes you just have to be happy with kind of the imperfections of the job and appreciate all of the good points. And I, being a glass half empty sort of person struggle with that sometimes
00:22:41.640 –> 00:22:48.510
In yes sometimes you just have to like let certain things go and just be happy with the good points of have a job.
00:22:49.230 –> 00:22:53.100
Well, and I think SEO any job has its own
00:22:54.660 –> 00:23:07.680
unique challenges. But I think when you work in an ambiguous field that maybe outsiders don’t understand very well like SEO. I think there’s an added layer of challenge that
00:23:08.970 –> 00:23:14.430
People in other fields just might might not fully grasp, like I have joked in the past about
00:23:15.960 –> 00:23:16.800
Have A DOG BARKING
00:23:18.150 –> 00:23:20.790
I’ve joked in the past about how
00:23:22.230 –> 00:23:35.460
You know, like a third of my job or something like that was just like, explaining things to people and getting getting buy in both the agency and client side and
00:23:38.580 –> 00:23:45.930
Sorry we so little sidebar about me. My husband and I have 26 pets, most of which are rescues
00:23:46.320 –> 00:23:48.870
And one of them is very opinionated right now.
00:23:48.990 –> 00:23:51.000
Whoa. That is a lot of pets.
00:23:51.870 –> 00:23:55.620
Yeah, do you want to do something with elder. Thank you.
00:23:56.850 –> 00:23:58.980
Um, my husband works from home to
00:24:01.350 –> 00:24:01.920
00:24:03.780 –> 00:24:04.740
Hey, where are we, yeah.
00:24:05.910 –> 00:24:13.080
We were talking about. What were we talking about Jeff i’d coming up attention. Sorry, I was marking the time second cut that out.
00:24:15.690 –> 00:24:16.410
A lot about poop.
00:24:18.990 –> 00:24:19.860
00:24:20.610 –> 00:24:32.280
Let me get started let me get us started back out or started back up. So in reading your, your account I followed your account for a while and I didn’t realize until today.
00:24:32.760 –> 00:24:38.790
That, like, here I am thinking I tweet a lot, and I’ve got like a couple thousand tweets you you have 51,000
00:24:39.180 –> 00:24:47.310
Or 51 point 4000 tweets, which I was like holy shit, that’s a lot of tweets and then the, the one that caught my eye today.
00:24:47.760 –> 00:24:53.490
As I was doing a little, a little pre show research and I just want to read it because I think it’s funny.
00:24:54.090 –> 00:25:09.750
If anyone’s curious what it’s like to work in e commerce for for hallmark I got an email and the only content that showed in the preview outlook provided was snowman poop. And I had to ask about the snowman poop. So tell me about the snowman poop.
00:25:11.910 –> 00:25:22.440
Apparently there’s wind up toys out there that poop jelly beans and we will have a snowman shaped one as a stocking stuffer. I guess.
00:25:23.940 –> 00:25:28.500
Wow. So now I know what I’m getting my kids as a stocking stuffer this year.
00:25:28.920 –> 00:25:33.000
Yeah, last year we had reindeer. So I think this year, we have a snowman.
00:25:33.810 –> 00:25:34.800
Kids have the reindeer.
00:25:35.550 –> 00:25:35.730
00:25:35.970 –> 00:25:36.600
00:25:36.840 –> 00:25:40.350
Or just know it’s Ranger the poops. Okay. Yeah.
00:25:40.710 –> 00:25:46.950
There’s a little brown jelly beans. Yeah, I assume this no man’s will be like my jelly beans.
00:25:48.270 –> 00:25:53.910
Never thought about that. I’m so sorry to the outside of all the poop. What’s it like to work at hallmark
00:25:55.440 –> 00:26:20.880
Really jolly Christmas tree started going up this week. But the biggest thing is Hallmark is a privately owned company and I have a very extensive NDA.
00:26:42.090 –> 00:26:42.900
00:26:43.620 –> 00:26:45.570
You don’t get to share all that goodness
00:26:46.500 –> 00:26:51.660
Yes, it’s a must tell you that my job is absurd. A lot of this.
00:26:53.220 –> 00:27:05.790
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of it is based around I’m immediately thinking with my SEO brain on it’s based around probably optimizing for a lot of these these brands in these
00:27:07.200 –> 00:27:12.450
This kind of different, different series and obviously I’m a huge Harry Potter person.
00:27:13.680 –> 00:27:17.550
Which is weird, because I’m a 37 year old man, and I’m into Harry Potter. So it’s not the most
00:27:17.880 –> 00:27:18.810
What’s your house.
00:27:19.860 –> 00:27:20.100
00:27:20.850 –> 00:27:21.660
What’s your house.
00:27:22.620 –> 00:27:25.590
Oh, of course. I’m Griffin door, of course.
00:27:25.680 –> 00:27:26.250
00:27:26.340 –> 00:27:34.920
The hero. But although I will say, I took a test. A couple of years ago and it placed me in huff and puff. So I don’t know what that says about
00:27:36.390 –> 00:27:38.400
A hopeless. Yeah, we
00:27:38.610 –> 00:27:45.390
Are the house of hard work and loyalty and snacks and that is where I go. Haha.
00:27:45.960 –> 00:27:53.700
There you go, well, yeah, there you go, that I think that actually does describe me pretty well. So I kind of get it but always want to think of myself as a griffin door.
00:27:54.870 –> 00:28:08.790
Yeah, and are so yeah there’s, there’s a lot of work that goes into optimizing for our licenses. But one thing that people maybe don’t realize is, like, I’m starting work on Christmas and like March.
00:28:09.720 –> 00:28:17.790
Because we actually have highly collectible stuff that launches on the site in April, that are most passionate customers will go after
00:28:20.640 –> 00:28:31.560
And it’s hilarious because I’ll be sitting at my desk, listening to Christmas music in the middle of the spring, because what I’m working on, guys. Might as well get in the mood.
00:28:31.710 –> 00:28:37.830
Christmas in July. So let’s let’s save that, because for those people. We don’t often
00:28:38.670 –> 00:28:52.170
Talk about at the beginning of the show. What we’re going to deep dive on but Surprise, surprise, we’re going to deep dive on holiday and seasonal SEO, but before we do that, Jeff. What’s, what’s in the news this week.
00:35:50.430 –> 00:36:01.050
Cool. So first up, I’m not really brand new news, but it’s been something that’s been in the news, since it’s been released, and that is Bert, the new natural language processing.
00:36:02.520 –> 00:36:13.500
Algorithm. I guess we’ll call it that is brought into Google, Google said it was actually the biggest update to their algorithm since rank brain. I think that came out five years ago.
00:36:15.300 –> 00:36:21.060
But it’s been interesting because we haven’t really seen any changes. I look at MA’s cast and Alec have ruined.
00:36:21.870 –> 00:36:29.460
Everything actually looks better than normal because it’s usually like a little bit of a stormy day. It seems like it’s a nice spring weather with all those
00:36:30.000 –> 00:36:37.050
Kind of casters right now, it’s, it’s an interesting approach. I thought it was something Google has been doing forever anyway.
00:36:37.530 –> 00:36:46.650
Maybe not naming it Burt but they have really been always talking about, you know, they’re trying to find the information, trying to find the the context between everything
00:36:47.310 –> 00:36:54.210
Schema has been a great part of that like trying to add meaning to stuff it just seems like now we just have a fancier algorithm to do that.
00:36:55.500 –> 00:37:10.200
Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot of articles on it. And at the end of the day it’s it’s not something we can really optimize towards though I did read an article where New York Times says that they since birth has launched they’ve lost a lot of traffic.
00:37:12.210 –> 00:37:20.610
Not sure if that’s, I haven’t seen any of my clients or anything like that. I don’t know. Kelly. If you’ve seen anything since the launch of Burt positive or negative with it.
00:37:22.230 –> 00:37:25.770
Honestly, I haven’t seen significant change anywhere. Um,
00:37:27.450 –> 00:37:45.870
I i think the irony of New York Times, saying that losing traffic is virtually supposed to negatively impact 10% of all searches and the ones that are supposed to impact our websites that don’t write for human consumption as well.
00:37:47.400 –> 00:38:02.610
So it’s, it’s definitely interesting to see that, you know, in this first wave, you know, one of the most world renown media sources there is is is one of the ones discussing penalties, but
00:38:03.630 –> 00:38:13.020
I think we’ve still got a lot to see as far as Burt’s impacts. I think this this season is one of search volatility.
00:38:14.400 –> 00:38:21.840
In general, just because user habits are changing with holiday shopping and that sort of thing. So I think
00:38:22.920 –> 00:38:33.000
When things sort of settled down in the new year. I think will maybe see a more mature version of of bird arise, whether that’s through updates from Google, or just
00:38:34.380 –> 00:38:45.600
The new normal kind of settling in. Right. But I also am of the opinion that if you’re writing good content that’s people focused, you’re going to be fine. No.
00:38:46.200 –> 00:38:57.030
I agree. I think when we look at it. The reason we have a website right it’s, it’s, we really want to be able to write for our customers. And I always have a little thing where I
00:38:58.020 –> 00:39:06.780
To little nitpicky thing but like I don’t call my customers users and it’s I don’t say very for users. I’m like writing for customers and running for people because it just
00:39:07.290 –> 00:39:13.710
backs that up. I was like, who I’m actually writing for I wouldn’t be like a my, my favorite user, you know, it’s like
00:39:14.640 –> 00:39:28.590
You know, it’s a something dumb that I always kind of pick on that, but I really do feel like if you’re just not trying to write to rank and you’re actually trying to inform it’ll be the most beneficial thing you can do for your side. Yes, and
00:39:28.650 –> 00:39:37.230
And honestly, like that’s that’s the core of SEO to begin with. Like I part of what I evangelize.
00:39:38.250 –> 00:39:42.750
And all of the the arena as I touched from a search standpoint is
00:39:43.650 –> 00:39:58.440
SEO is actually a form of customer service. If you do it right, you are there to fulfill a need or answer a question and SEO is just making sure that you are detail oriented about how you position yourself to fulfill that need
00:39:59.820 –> 00:40:05.820
So as long as you keep that mindset, you are probably going to be fine with Burt that said
00:40:06.990 –> 00:40:19.020
We all know that major algorithm updates can cause some blips and some destabilize stations and like I said, I think we’re probably going to see more stable and mature version of it early next year.
00:40:19.980 –> 00:40:32.460
So the funny thing about Burt and for me about algorithm changes in general is like honestly I’ve only been a part of one website.
00:40:33.150 –> 00:40:42.330
Well, I shouldn’t say that, but one one where I knew for sure that it was an algorithm change and that Google had just throttle.
00:40:42.780 –> 00:40:51.360
The site down and then later on when they made an update it throttled it back up and like for me. I’m a very bottom line person and like
00:40:52.140 –> 00:40:59.580
I think about birth, and I think about in that instance when I know that it happened as a result of an algorithm update like what do I change.
00:41:00.210 –> 00:41:09.720
In my day to day what what changes. And for me, like, really, it’s not a damn thing about what I’ve been doing, like, I’m not like
00:41:10.140 –> 00:41:16.020
I see a lot of people talking about other people who are writing about optimizing for birth and I’m
00:41:16.770 –> 00:41:29.730
And I’m just like, Well, honestly, like what I what I feel like Burt is really intended to do is to really break up and understand queries and understand the intent behind the queries and
00:41:30.060 –> 00:41:37.050
Hopefully divvy up the results by, like, hey, this query is someone looking for looking for information this query is looking for
00:41:37.860 –> 00:41:47.400
Somebody looking for support this query is looking for somebody who is looking to transact or buy something and to serve up the results based on that. Well,
00:41:48.000 –> 00:42:04.560
If you’re doing your job as an SEO, you’re already looking in. Maybe not at the level of a computer or a machine, but you’re already looking at all of these keywords that you want to target and you’re already thinking about the intent behind them in terms of what kinds of
00:42:05.610 –> 00:42:09.030
Web pages are being surfaced up and if you’re not doing that you should
00:42:10.200 –> 00:42:17.820
But for me, because I’m already doing that. It’s like, well, it doesn’t change anything. It’s like rank brain. It didn’t really change anything for me. So like for me.
00:42:18.390 –> 00:42:28.200
It’s kind of like a big buzzword in the industry and it’s something that everybody is talking about. And I just am like, yeah, doesn’t really doesn’t really affect me.
00:42:28.680 –> 00:42:45.960
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. And I think the writing’s on the wall for this for a while, um, you know, Google has been very vocal about putting end users first whether their customers or just information gatherers or
00:42:47.430 –> 00:43:00.840
People doing research projects. Someone recently asked on Twitter. When was the first time you ever use the internet and I talked about doing a research project on beluga whales and like second or third grade.
00:43:02.790 –> 00:43:14.490
Just a little aside, I like that story, um, the thing is like micro moments were such a like hot buzzword for a while there. And really, I think,
00:43:15.150 –> 00:43:38.130
Burt is essentially placing a logic behind understanding those micro moments more if anyone is shocked that Google introduced a new layer of AI that helps people match their intent with their search results a little bit better, they probably haven’t been in search very long, in my opinion.
00:43:40.620 –> 00:43:47.550
It’s funny because we always see all of these knee jerk reactions. Every time there’s a an algorithm update and very, very rarely
00:43:48.030 –> 00:43:53.070
Is anyone actually one of those brands that tanks are suddenly spikes.
00:43:53.790 –> 00:44:10.830
And usually when it happens, it ends up course correcting at some point in time anyways so it’s still about the long game of write good content. Have a good site give the content, the technical structure. It needs to be able to be crawled and found and indexed and served
00:44:13.440 –> 00:44:23.850
This is, you know, for lack of a better cliche. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And I think the Burt rollouts IS JUST TO TURN ON THE RACE ROUTE.
00:44:26.100 –> 00:44:26.400
00:44:27.810 –> 00:44:34.620
The person who comes out the worst. And this is actually the character bird because they use this image and everything. And it’s going to really
00:44:34.860 –> 00:44:35.670
Use image search
00:44:36.390 –> 00:44:37.380
How many birds.
00:44:40.770 –> 00:44:44.250
birds, birds, never got this kind of publicity. Yeah, exactly.
00:44:45.540 –> 00:44:57.420
someone tweeted that there are waiting to see what the cost of the domain Ernie SEO would be like in a week or so because people are trying to go after it.
00:44:59.700 –> 00:45:00.690
00:45:01.830 –> 00:45:02.100
00:45:02.610 –> 00:45:15.090
Awesome, so do the other thing I haven’t news is kind of a just we talked about it before, but it’s actually officially rolled out now is the Google page, page report inside of Google Search Console.
00:45:16.320 –> 00:45:26.280
We’re really looking forward to this because I’ve really been trying to hone in a lot of my clients on PHP and just convince them like, hey, this is something at Google, like
00:45:26.820 –> 00:45:31.290
Here’s all these articles how Google says it’s important. Like it’s important for your customers. It’s important for search
00:45:31.770 –> 00:45:36.810
And still have a lot of customers who are happy, six, seven second load times
00:45:37.560 –> 00:45:48.330
And it’s like, no, no. We need to get better. And actually, it’s really hard to show when you have a million pages I give them like here’s a five page speed report or here’s 30 pages and
00:45:48.840 –> 00:45:54.930
It’s really hard to show a whole thing. When we look at, like, something like Google Analytics. We don’t have a great page report inside of there so
00:45:55.290 –> 00:46:02.460
I like the Google’s pushing this and kind of them, showing that they’re pushing it. You know, it helps me with my clients like look, now you can give us give
00:46:03.150 –> 00:46:15.810
Sorry, I’m getting tongue tied Google’s really like pushing this to show us that it’s even more important by giving it to webmasters and with anything make it an SEO factor and you have a slew of people that are going to push this just like
00:46:17.310 –> 00:46:25.710
Like everything else they put out like make your site HTTPS and just say it’s a ranking factor. Now SEOs are like making every one of their clients go HTTPS.
00:46:26.490 –> 00:46:32.730
It’s kind of amazing how we can push the whole internet to roll something out but page has been fairly tough.
00:46:33.120 –> 00:46:43.290
Because it’s not as easy as getting your certificate and making yourself, you know, secure, it’s a lot harder to accomplish. But some of the reports mean Jake were talking about earlier.
00:46:44.940 –> 00:46:50.310
I mean, I know this is experimental. I know it’s a first released, but there is a lot to be
00:46:51.510 –> 00:47:00.390
Wanted in the secret for it’s a, it’s great. We have a trend, but there’s not much else after that. So, Jake. I know you have an opinion on that.
00:47:00.840 –> 00:47:03.270
I have an opinion on everything SEO really
00:47:04.620 –> 00:47:11.040
Funny thing is like outside of my day to day job, like I’m so easy going and I don’t have an opinion, it’s like
00:47:11.580 –> 00:47:22.680
It’s like, hey, where do you want to go to dinner. I don’t care. And with SEO. It’s like, I have an opinion on every, every thing. And I’m now everybody’s got to hear it because I have a podcast. So let me tell you.
00:47:23.490 –> 00:47:24.750
The Page Speed reports.
00:47:26.400 –> 00:47:40.800
directionally they’re really awesome between both Google Search Console and what Screaming Frog has come out with the big problem. And the big, the big pain in the ass about page speed is just what Jeff said like when you’re trying to
00:47:42.120 –> 00:47:51.540
When you’re dealing with sites that are large and in some cases really large. There’s no way to give them enough of a representative sample of
00:47:52.500 –> 00:48:03.870
page load times to really kind of really make an impact. Right. If you give them 25 pages when they’ve got a million page website. Well, that’s like, that’s just dropping the hat.
00:48:04.560 –> 00:48:19.200
But in the same in the same breath, like you as a person. Don’t have the time to manually go through that many pages and pull down all of the metrics that tools like web page tests, Google page speed insights GT metrics.
00:48:19.860 –> 00:48:28.590
Lighthouse that they all provide they all provide really great data, but until this Google Search Console report and until things like Screaming Frog.
00:48:29.250 –> 00:48:38.970
It was really hard to go site wide and get a larger sweep of how page speed which trending on all pages of a website. Now here’s the here’s the flip side.
00:48:39.300 –> 00:48:51.720
I actually went in and tried to use the Google Search Console Page Speed reports today and I went so far as to send a screenshot to one of my clients who is struggling with Page Speed to say, hey,
00:48:52.500 –> 00:49:03.600
Here’s what Google is saying about your page speed and on mobile. I’m several thousand. I don’t even want to go into the page numbers but like 75% of your pages are deemed slow
00:49:04.260 –> 00:49:18.000
The other 25% are deemed average and zero percent of your pages are deemed fast and I sent them say go look at this, go look at this report and Search Console, Mr or Mrs client and
00:49:18.690 –> 00:49:27.450
I sent that and then like without absent mindedly like diving any further into the search Council reports. So that’s definitely my fault for not diving further before I sent it.
00:49:28.290 –> 00:49:33.390
I looked at Search Console and i and i clicked in like okay show more details.
00:49:33.870 –> 00:49:45.930
And I realized for the first time that like it is only showing a very small sample of if it’s saying like, you’ve got 5000 pages that are slow it’s giving you a sample of, like, five
00:49:46.410 –> 00:49:53.550
And it’s not even telling you what the issues are on a page on a page by page basis. So I was a little disappointed when I went in.
00:49:54.300 –> 00:50:09.750
It was a little bit of a wah wah moment and I’ll have surely have to explain that to the client when they go and look at it and don’t figure anything out based on the report, but it is directionally a move in the right step in the right direction. So I do
00:50:09.870 –> 00:50:12.480
Well, and I think the biggest thing that
00:50:14.160 –> 00:50:26.220
That report within Search Console and even the the paradigm shifts, we’re seeing in new search console in general is a new chapter in the relationship between Google and search engine strategist.
00:50:26.760 –> 00:50:33.510
Um, you know i i got started in SEO right as Google was taking away keyword data from Google Analytics.
00:50:34.230 –> 00:50:45.780
And even to this day I’ll meet with people and they’re like, well, what does our Google Analytics data say about our keywords. So I’m like, it’s not in there. It’s in Search Console, like I can get you keyword data.
00:50:46.380 –> 00:50:53.760
But it’s not in Google Analytics anymore because Google give us and Google taketh away. Well now it’s starting to give us more back
00:50:54.630 –> 00:51:02.310
And, you know, at one point in time we were all those people dropping and single URLs into the mobile page speed tester.
00:51:02.640 –> 00:51:12.720
And trying to use that to benchmark the page speed of our site and how we could perform and mobile and now you’ve got people like JOHN MUELLER everyone’s SEO dad who I love,
00:51:14.460 –> 00:51:23.640
Out there actually telling us how to answer our questions and solve problems and, you know, Danny Sullivan actually saying yes, there was an algorithm update
00:51:24.330 –> 00:51:41.640
So even if, at times, it feels like some of the reports aren’t as useful as we might like or you know there’s they’re still obviously experimental are in beta. At the same time, this is way better than the days when it’s like I don’t know my
00:51:42.030 –> 00:51:43.740
00:51:43.950 –> 00:51:52.440
Yeah. And yeah, I feel like I feel like the, the, the little boy who complains on Christmas when he didn’t get enough great Christmas presents, but like
00:51:53.760 –> 00:52:09.330
I mean like if that’s actually that that theme aligns with what we’re talking about in a couple of seconds but directionally, like I said, it’s awesome. It really is. I’m glad I just can’t wait till like they add a little bit more behind the scenes and make me
00:52:10.560 –> 00:52:12.390
Allow me to be more lazy, I should say.
00:52:15.240 –> 00:52:18.270
Yeah, I’m definitely curious to see how it keeps evolving.
00:52:19.500 –> 00:52:26.550
Admittedly, pretty much every site I touch right now has load time issues.
00:52:27.570 –> 00:52:33.030
Or at least plenty of room for improvement, but I literally just sat on a webinar on Monday that was about
00:52:34.230 –> 00:52:36.810
WPS and amp and
00:52:37.890 –> 00:52:38.820
00:52:39.990 –> 00:52:55.620
Essentially, there’s no such thing as a perfect score for site speed. That’s always a work in progress. And even if you have almost instantaneous loading, there’s still going to be things that Google’s going to see and be like, hey, you can do that better.
00:52:57.660 –> 00:53:07.650
So I think it’s interesting, and obviously mobile really keeps the conversation on on Page Speed propelling forward.
00:53:09.540 –> 00:53:16.800
Don’t even get me started on how mobile cues end up impacting voice performance to since that’s on everyone’s mind as well.
00:53:17.520 –> 00:53:35.520
So we’re going to keep hearing about it. But I also think that we are still kind of immature in the space of Page Speed analysis and optimization were leaps and bounds ahead of where we were when I started in this field, but I think that’s like the next big
00:53:36.960 –> 00:53:41.190
Continuation of, like, what’s coming in tech SEO. Yeah.
00:53:43.260 –> 00:53:48.030
So Jeff, is that all the news, because I’m I’m chomping at the bit. I’ve got a story to tell.
00:53:49.050 –> 00:53:49.710
Tell the story.
00:53:50.640 –> 00:54:03.300
Alright, so we’re going to deep dive into holiday SEO and hopefully I can find some nice holiday music to delve over this section, maybe some Jingle Bells. But anyways,
00:54:04.680 –> 00:54:05.850
I have a story to tell.
00:54:07.290 –> 00:54:10.410
And it is, I think, very similar to
00:54:11.460 –> 00:54:19.140
Maybe an experience that Kelly might have been is not allowed to divulge as as much but my story is actually very
00:54:20.670 –> 00:54:21.720
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:27.480
In here, I’m going to edit that out. I just snapped food. I never do that. Um,
00:54:29.040 –> 00:54:42.330
Let me start over. I’ve got a story to tell and it is a bout a client who their name rhymes with bakery barmes. Anybody know who they are. Maybe, maybe not.
00:54:43.050 –> 00:54:59.340
And they are very interesting in that they make 90% of their revenue between November and December and basically their entire year is spent planning for a two month period.
00:54:59.760 –> 00:55:02.760
They’re busy period where they make all of their all of their money.
00:55:03.570 –> 00:55:23.910
And one of the interesting challenges, working with them that we ran into. And we worked with them. And this is a previous agency we work with them for many, many years, and I wasn’t always on the account. I was on it for three years before I ended up leaving leaving that ad agency and
00:55:24.930 –> 00:55:33.060
The problem was that they wanted a an SEO strategy and a paid strategy and it made sense for paid, but not SEO.
00:55:34.050 –> 00:55:42.150
Where they turn the lights on in September and when the season was over, they turn the lights off and they stopped investing
00:55:42.480 –> 00:55:50.490
And they essentially went dark. And when the new season came back around. They turn the lights on, turn the lights off.
00:55:51.120 –> 00:55:57.210
So on the paid side. Like I said, this is a great strategy because like Why waste all your money at the time of year when it doesn’t matter.
00:55:57.600 –> 00:56:03.150
But on the SEO side. This was a horrible strategy and no amount of us telling them that
00:56:03.810 –> 00:56:12.240
made an impact and till I got on the account and keep in mind I was saying the same thing. I didn’t do anything special. They just for whatever reason, were more ready to hear it.
00:56:12.600 –> 00:56:20.670
When I was saying the same thing. And they eventually eventually change their ways. But what would happen is, every single year.
00:56:21.210 –> 00:56:36.870
Our poor SEO teams would would be able to start in September and they’re they’re real kind of drop dead date for getting any they really honestly had about a month to a month and a half to get any recommendations that they wanted
00:56:37.710 –> 00:56:44.730
Into the system in time to make it on the site because implementation takes a long time. Well, the problem is
00:56:45.540 –> 00:56:52.620
Every year, because the this particular client didn’t invest the resources with turnover.
00:56:52.890 –> 00:57:03.330
Because you don’t have consistent work you’re working in an agency. They slot you where the work is so it would be new resources, they would be performing an all new evaluation. Every year the results.
00:57:03.690 –> 00:57:14.760
Would go up and as soon as soon as the season would would end, they would go down and you’d pretty much have to rebuild the damn every single year.
00:57:15.180 –> 00:57:23.610
And if you’re a if you’re a client and or if you’re somebody is working with an agency hell if you’re not working with an agency.
00:57:24.510 –> 00:57:35.700
I highly recommend against this and I highly recommend implementing what we just honestly we just called it an evergreen always on SEO strategy for the sake of them, but like a normal strategy.
00:57:36.420 –> 00:57:46.500
And luckily, we find it like we were we somehow magically ended up helping them, we were successful with them, and especially successful
00:57:47.130 –> 00:57:55.230
During my time on the on the account in terms of driving incremental gains in revenue. But the most success for me was when they decided
00:57:55.710 –> 00:57:57.990
To leave the lights on in January.
00:57:58.470 –> 00:58:10.350
And actually allow us to work ahead and have time to do things like work on technical and get those things in there already full development queue to launch evergreen content or
00:58:10.590 –> 00:58:18.060
Pages like Black Friday Cyber Monday and for oh by the way all of the other holidays that were big for them and to tell them
00:58:18.690 –> 00:58:29.730
Don’t turn those pages off when the season was over, because that happened to they would rebuild in a brand new black friday page every single year instead of just allowing it to
00:58:30.270 –> 00:58:38.040
Exist, they would, they would delete it and build a new one every year. Again, it’s not advisable. It doesn’t allow the page to age over the course of time.
00:58:38.340 –> 00:58:47.490
And it’s like sending a newborn out into the world. Every single year. So anyways, that’s my story. We were eventually successful we got them to keep the lights on.
00:58:47.790 –> 00:58:56.700
And that gave us a lot more runtime, which gave us a lot more opportunity to be successful. But now that that’s the end of my story. I’m going to let you guys jump in.
00:58:57.480 –> 00:58:59.070
Yeah, well. Oh.
00:58:59.130 –> 00:59:00.000
Did you want to go.
00:59:00.540 –> 00:59:11.520
Good um you know I mentioned earlier, it’s a marathon, not a sprint in regards to SEO that has to do with like the life cycle of content as well.
00:59:12.660 –> 00:59:30.630
One of the, the biggest struggles that any SEO has his lead time making sure that your content is online long enough before it’s actually supposed to be seen by customers for it to have built up at least a little bit of juice. And if you’re starting from scratch every single year.
00:59:31.890 –> 00:59:40.650
Google has no idea who you are or why it should care about what your content has whereas if you’re recycling the same landing pages, year after year.
00:59:41.670 –> 00:59:44.880
Google is familiar with you knows what you have
00:59:46.050 –> 00:59:51.870
You know there’s there’s authority assigned to that page within the domain, it costs you.
00:59:53.190 –> 01:00:11.070
Something about each acronym here because that’s another thing that everyone wants to talk about right now. Um, but you really don’t have the ability to build that rapport page by page with with Google, if you’re starting fresh every single year. So I think
01:00:12.270 –> 01:00:21.900
I’m actually really impressed that you’ve asked them to change their way is because a lot of a lot of clients are figure that out. Like, I still know clients at my old shop because
01:00:22.380 –> 01:00:30.990
Everyone’s still talks, um, that really take for granted the ability to keep evergreen content going throughout the year.
01:00:31.800 –> 01:00:44.400
And then, you know, when their, their peak season starts up there like little, why isn’t traffic picking up on me because you haven’t done anything to rank well for the last nine months. Yeah.
01:00:44.490 –> 01:01:04.020
And it’s really important. Like, I looked up some stats and like last Cyber Monday from last year was $7.9 billion dollars in online sales. That was just one day overall last year holiday sales were up 17.4% at like 120 $2 billion sold online.
01:01:05.100 –> 01:01:12.540
You know it’s if there’s so much competition. You have to do everything that you need to be able to you know to to do that. I have a client who
01:01:13.410 –> 01:01:28.110
Takes it down every year takes down their Black Friday takes down their Cyber Monday takes down everything comes back the next year with a different URL. Every time I don’t know until like four days before Cyber Monday, but it’s going to be. I try to get into that.
01:01:29.130 –> 01:01:35.040
Because I’m like I’m like I’m waiting to do a redirect and if I’m lucky if I get the redirect and sometimes
01:01:36.060 –> 01:01:49.350
Compared to another kind of major I think how major you are in retail that like people do see that and you know where they’re Black Friday is up all year. And they just take down the ads and put like come sealskin next year.
01:01:50.490 –> 01:01:57.930
Start making tweaks in that in July and August. Just to kind of make the crawlers know that that page is active and
01:01:58.440 –> 01:02:05.640
And we hit it with the big, you know, the big updates when it comes time for that. But, and then they see like even in the summertime.
01:02:06.390 –> 01:02:16.680
That page does very well. It’s interesting that you know you don’t think people are looking for Black Friday stuff, but they land on that page because it was just looking for deals, you know, so, um,
01:02:16.710 –> 01:02:22.950
It’s really fascinating. I was as much as where we’re focused in on on retail right now. I think
01:02:23.670 –> 01:02:40.320
It’s relevant to literally any vertical. So like in my agriculture days. If you haven’t worked in that space. You would never think of it, but there’s actually like a heightened season for cattle vaccinations.
01:02:42.150 –> 01:02:42.750
01:02:44.490 –> 01:02:53.700
And that’s those seasons align with when do farmers and ranchers have their calves born and when are they going to be needing to vaccinate their
01:02:54.120 –> 01:03:14.820
Little baby calves that need to be kept healthy and take care of. So, I mean, we can we can talk about seasonality in regards to all the crazy people standing in line on Black Friday, but honestly like these lessons about evergreen content, keeping your pages up they’re relevant to everyone.
01:03:15.870 –> 01:03:29.520
The relevant to the mom and pop shops selling candles that they make in their kitchen, they’re relevant to big box department stores, although some of them specifically a brand that has a bull’s eye logo.
01:03:30.690 –> 01:03:37.770
Is too big to fail. They could do everything wrong still outperform everyone else on on Google, but
01:03:39.030 –> 01:03:52.470
It’s really about understanding when your seasons hit and planning the rest of your year essentially around future proofing yourself before that season is even on the horizon.
01:03:54.210 –> 01:04:02.190
So how, how far in advance do you recommend planning for this. If you’re a seasonal business.
01:04:03.870 –> 01:04:09.300
I typically shoot for three months. If I can
01:04:09.840 –> 01:04:10.920
To have content.
01:04:11.340 –> 01:04:12.210
On the site.
01:04:13.590 –> 01:04:20.130
And if it’s a net new page my minimum is a month, unless it’s an absolute urgency.
01:04:20.430 –> 01:04:23.550
And my question is, why can you expand on the why.
01:04:23.820 –> 01:04:25.260
Oh yeah, um,
01:04:27.090 –> 01:04:33.690
So back when I actually started working on that sort of one to three month window.
01:04:34.800 –> 01:04:41.100
There was still the understanding that sometimes it took up to a month for Google to really fully index new content.
01:04:41.670 –> 01:04:59.790
After you’ve uploaded it, but that was before things like crawl requests were readily available now that 123 month window is partially to ensure that on the client side. People have plenty of time to see it in production and react before it’s relevant.
01:05:01.830 –> 01:05:07.980
There’s like even even now for a variety of the sites I touch. There are
01:05:09.150 –> 01:05:13.530
scrambles happening last minute after it’s already in pre production to make sure that
01:05:14.310 –> 01:05:27.450
This little otter, and is taking care of correctly. So that’s part of the reason the other part is it just gives me peace of mind that it’s out there can be seen it’s collecting a little bit of juice from Google.
01:05:28.830 –> 01:05:41.130
I know that it’s well documented and site maps. It’s not being accidentally blocked. It’s really just a safety net. At this point, wondering if maybe it’s a security blanket of sorts. I get that extra
01:05:41.610 –> 01:05:57.510
Month that I probably don’t need in there to feel better about the position we’re in in prep, but at the same time I would rather be ahead of the game and early and feeling comfortable, then you know crunching it in the final weeks before game day
01:05:57.840 –> 01:06:00.870
Right. You’re giving Google time to digest it also right it’s
01:06:01.050 –> 01:06:02.460
Going to be crowded indexed.
01:06:03.000 –> 01:06:07.740
But then the get through all those you know algorithms to help it gain that value.
01:06:08.190 –> 01:06:13.230
Yeah, so it gives birth time to think about it in between dealing with his pigeons.
01:06:14.430 –> 01:06:15.240
01:06:17.580 –> 01:06:28.410
Yeah I it’s not holiday related, but I have had a couple of experiences recently where in here’s, here’s the thing. Like, people still
01:06:29.190 –> 01:06:35.250
Especially non SEOs struggle to grasp this concept with respect to things they want to rank for.
01:06:35.880 –> 01:06:43.890
Sometimes, you actually have not sometimes all the time. You have to have a page targeting that specific thing and that’s that’s a struggle for for
01:06:44.190 –> 01:06:52.560
For some people, so when when we’re talking about holidays. You want to rank for Black Friday. You better have a black friday page want to rank for Cyber Monday, same thing.
01:06:52.950 –> 01:07:03.750
Outside of the holiday, the traditional Christmas holiday New Year’s season, all these other holidays to like you want to rank for them. You better have a page for them.
01:07:04.500 –> 01:07:10.440
But the thing I was going to say is that it does take time, like I’ve been slowly but watching
01:07:11.430 –> 01:07:17.490
A couple of new pages that were really important for some, some of my clients to different clients.
01:07:17.820 –> 01:07:26.790
And I’ve been watching the hrs report because it gives you a nice little trend line where you can watch the the rankings and see over the course of like two years.
01:07:27.390 –> 01:07:36.630
What URLs may have ranked in the, in the past, for any given keyword and these really important phrases for their business really high transaction stuff on
01:07:37.320 –> 01:07:47.670
This page launched launched in late summer and it’s just been slowly but surely meandering its way up towards the top. And it’s taken a couple of months for them to get
01:07:48.270 –> 01:08:05.460
From where they were, which was nowhere. And in, in the case of a lot of businesses. If you’re creating a new page you’re creating it for a reason because you’re nowhere and you want to be somewhere. It’s taken months to just meander their way up to the top so it takes time.
01:08:06.510 –> 01:08:22.110
We tend to refer to that process as the pages maturing um, you know, even if the code and the content doesn’t change one bit in the two months that it’s sitting on our site just doing before it seasonally relevant
01:08:23.130 –> 01:08:39.450
It’s still growing into itself. It’s still growing into Google’s understanding of it and you know it doesn’t hurt if people kind of stumble upon it, and suddenly there’s traffic stats that help Google understand that it’s an authoritative and useful page.
01:08:40.590 –> 01:08:53.700
So yeah I I tend to err on the side of get the content out there early and just make sure that it’s situated in such a way that if you don’t want it to be seen yet, but Google can still find it your bases are covered.
01:08:55.200 –> 01:08:55.590
01:08:56.250 –> 01:09:04.080
If you’re, if you’re a technical SEO to and you’re working with your developers is especially if you’re in a seasonal business.
01:09:05.490 –> 01:09:17.430
They’ve got a lot of shit going on and they have a probably a roadmap that they probably built eight months ago that you’re trying to get into. So you need to be mindful of that, and
01:09:17.790 –> 01:09:27.570
Not only that, like if you want technical changes done. You got to know they’re not coming during the holiday because they’re going to go into what’s called a code freeze.
01:09:28.410 –> 01:09:37.260
For those probably starting before Black Friday the site will be locked down and the only things that will matter are making sure that the shopping cart stays up
01:09:37.890 –> 01:09:50.760
By the way, you should track that to to make sure that there’s no abandonment issues that was a big problem for the client, whose story I told at the beginning of this where people were dropping out of the cart and they didn’t know why.
01:09:51.930 –> 01:09:54.180
But luckily they had tracked the dropouts.
01:09:55.980 –> 01:10:06.780
But yeah, if you want technical things done those things need to be done many, many months before they need to be. You need to be working with the developer to get those in queue, because I can promise you.
01:10:07.260 –> 01:10:13.650
If you want technical things done. It ain’t getting done in the holiday season. No way. No way. Nope. No.
01:10:14.100 –> 01:10:23.850
And it’s also a good time and we were talking about Page Speed before but page speed will see each capacity is a big thing, right, because we want to have fast pages, but
01:10:24.540 –> 01:10:36.990
Black Friday sales. If you have a good sale, it can bring it used to be the go to Digg effect when you use to get your story on the front page of Digg and everyone come to your site and crash your site. That’s the last thing you want to happen to have your website during a holiday.
01:10:38.190 –> 01:10:42.150
gig is still thing. It’s not the same thing. There is no more dig effect.
01:10:42.210 –> 01:10:42.570
I used to
01:10:43.470 –> 01:10:47.400
Yeah, no I we used to have battles that we can get on the front page of it, which
01:10:47.730 –> 01:10:51.900
There is still a Reddit affect the read it as well.
01:10:52.380 –> 01:10:58.200
Oh, great. I run a forum on there. So it’s our subreddit tech SEO subreddit, get it out there.
01:10:58.440 –> 01:11:18.720
Oh, yeah. So it’s, uh, but yeah. Now there’s a big push that way. So wouldn’t be able to make sure you can handle the load, because I do have one client in general who caps it at like 10,000 users and then they have this nice little message that says we’re sorry we’re our systems are full.
01:11:19.950 –> 01:11:27.060
We didn’t this queue and you just sit there and wait until goes through. It’s not a good experience. I don’t think especially like since
01:11:27.510 –> 01:11:36.690
You mean you can throw money at the situation and get more server space and things like that. We don’t want anyone to not get to the products.
01:11:37.140 –> 01:11:42.000
Sometimes that might help with one of those like if you’re running a crazy sale and you know your number.
01:11:42.810 –> 01:11:55.710
800 line. You know, it might be like, something like that. But that’s not their goal. Their goal is they don’t want their servers to crash. So they put that in place, but I’m constantly telling them. Now we need to get that fixed for the holidays or we’re gonna have a bad holiday.
01:11:55.860 –> 01:12:00.720
Do you ever notice clients, not knowing when their site goes down in holiday.
01:12:03.360 –> 01:12:15.030
I notice I have a uptime robot on all my clients and many of my clients are some of them were thankful. They are very like I find out it goes down and let them know right away.
01:12:15.570 –> 01:12:22.830
It goes to my Slack channel and I just read it over to them. I did have one client who was not happy their development teams are happy.
01:12:23.280 –> 01:12:34.620
Because there’s so it was always going down, and I kept telling my client, which was not the tech team and the tech team kept on going like, why is the site down just keeps finding this so they asked me to stop monitoring it.
01:12:35.640 –> 01:12:40.260
Then they like we know we have problems. I’m just like, yeah, I stopped in quotes.
01:12:41.610 –> 01:12:47.940
But they’ve they have fixed all their problems in that way, but it was one of those where they just didn’t want me being the tattletale all the time, but
01:12:48.210 –> 01:12:56.820
For the most part, everyone is happy that a monitoring it. I even tell them, because it’s free. Go to uptime robot monitor your own site. That way you know it’s down because
01:12:57.240 –> 01:13:05.580
That’s the worst thing we can have. I mean, SEO side it’s for your clients, getting to a site that’s broken and it takes 30 minutes to get back up during the peak sale so
01:13:06.600 –> 01:13:11.340
So that’s actually a tool. I was not familiar with prior so I’m gonna go check that out. Thank you.
01:13:11.490 –> 01:13:16.260
Yeah, no. It’s awesome, it’s a it’s like I said it’s a free tool, you get. I think it’s free for 50
01:13:17.730 –> 01:13:31.050
Domains or URLs at a time, and I can connect to slack through it. If you use Slack do a hook and I get it right. I’ve like a for all my clients. I have also a Slack channel says, are they down
01:13:31.740 –> 01:13:35.820
So it gives me an alert. And anyone who’s on the team can join that and just say, like, if it’s down or up
01:13:36.690 –> 01:13:38.310
So it’s awesome, right. So,
01:13:38.580 –> 01:13:44.010
Speaking of sites going down in the holidays. Do you guys have any holiday horror stories.
01:13:49.980 –> 01:13:51.390
Don’t, don’t, don’t.
01:13:54.390 –> 01:14:02.880
Say, none that come to mind. But I think part of that may be because I’ve been up since 3am
01:14:06.210 –> 01:14:14.640
Yeah, don’t do that. Yeah, I feel like the holidays just end up being just this blur to me.
01:14:16.350 –> 01:14:20.130
And now, even more so because some planning a birthday party now.
01:14:21.870 –> 01:14:23.460
But yeah, it’s, it’s
01:14:26.100 –> 01:14:34.230
Maybe all that survival mode training from life’s disappointments. It’s what gets me up for I’m in it, just get through it.
01:14:34.560 –> 01:14:39.960
It’s the busy season. So I asked that question because I do have a story yet again. I have a story.
01:14:41.400 –> 01:14:42.450
Wasn’t my client.
01:14:43.620 –> 01:14:53.580
This happened probably six years ago that business, surprise, surprise, like they went bankrupt in we were doing at a previous agency some work for
01:14:54.900 –> 01:15:03.570
A retail a retail client competitor. I would say a Best Buy not Best Buy, but a competitor. Best Buy and
01:15:05.340 –> 01:15:13.410
We were doing quite well organic traffic was up things were going really, really well. Problem was business was still going downhill. Like there’s
01:15:13.830 –> 01:15:22.140
Only so much you can you can do with your marketing the that sometimes you just can’t make the business things work.
01:15:22.830 –> 01:15:37.260
No matter how well your how well you’re doing. But in this particular case, and I really feel for the team that was on this account because it really ruined their entire their entire holiday result. The
01:15:38.610 –> 01:15:41.550
I think it was the CMO I can’t exactly remember who it was.
01:15:42.570 –> 01:15:49.650
They had a they had a concern that the site was going to go down because it was getting too much organic traffic.
01:15:50.220 –> 01:16:05.730
So what did they do they disallowed it on purpose in the robots file on purpose. And luckily our team caught it. But our team didn’t catch it right away our team caught it maybe like a day or two days after it happened and got it rectified but like
01:16:07.110 –> 01:16:11.820
That type of stuff, especially if you really depend on the holidays. I mean, if you’re
01:16:12.480 –> 01:16:22.200
A business that depends on online for any any amount of revenue like that type of stuff costs in this case probably did cost people their jobs so
01:16:22.710 –> 01:16:28.890
It was crazy man. It was crazy. I felt so bad for for them because like they were doing great. And they were a great team.
01:16:29.490 –> 01:16:43.170
And then somebody steps in and does this without without their without their consent or approval or knowledge and completely tanked. The results for that entire season so like they were pretty bummed out about it, but that definitely happened and it just
01:16:44.070 –> 01:16:55.230
For me, illustrated the importance of continuing to educate people and continuing to educate the clients. And I just think I still don’t even understand the logic. Like, I feel
01:16:55.230 –> 01:16:56.850
Like that would be a good problem to have.
01:16:56.910 –> 01:17:02.070
But for whatever reason. Yeah, no man they did it. That’s a true story just
01:17:02.220 –> 01:17:03.660
Stop your server processes.
01:17:03.990 –> 01:17:05.190
01:17:06.600 –> 01:17:10.230
I just had my mouth just hanging
01:17:10.290 –> 01:17:12.900
01:17:13.050 –> 01:17:15.000
Yeah, that really happened.
01:17:16.320 –> 01:17:26.850
No, I haven’t had any major ones, the one that would have almost been just like yours, where I had a client like tweak their application firewall.
01:17:27.510 –> 01:17:38.820
And we didn’t know that. And all of a sudden, like in Search Console, all these 500 Irby just started popping up literally a week before Black Friday and we’re just
01:17:39.690 –> 01:17:47.940
digging and digging and digging and I’m just like, what did you guys change nothing would something changed on the website because we’re having all these and after kind of digging it.
01:17:49.650 –> 01:17:58.500
One of my favorite things I like to do is run Screaming Frog get ridiculous amount of speeds, so that I get kicked off the website and I noticed that happens and
01:17:59.640 –> 01:18:07.410
It kicked me off and give me the same error. I was seeing and Search Console. And I was like, oh, did you change your protection or your firewall like
01:18:07.800 –> 01:18:17.220
Oh yeah, we were tweaking some of the settings in it was like, well, you’re blocking Google because they they allow Google through but they blocked the amount of
01:18:18.690 –> 01:18:29.370
The speed at which somebody can come through on the site. So they’re basically went from saying you can have 500 clicks a minute to 100 clicks a minute because they wanted to prevent BOTS FROM scraping their pricing.
01:18:30.480 –> 01:18:38.550
But at the same time, Google came through. I think the magic number was like 300 you know times a minute or something like that. So we tweaked it to like to 400
01:18:38.970 –> 01:18:51.780
And actually, everything cleared up. So it’s kind of like saving the day before the issue happened, but that was almost like one of my again a nightmare of a decision there. But besides that, like,
01:18:53.070 –> 01:19:02.940
I see paid side get crushed during holidays. I’m or because we get into code freeze and I’m like all right i’m planning for 2020 and then I see people
01:19:02.970 –> 01:19:08.760
Like crying and the quality time like that night and day. Like, I feel bad. This is one reason I’m not
01:19:10.200 –> 01:19:20.580
I’m never mad to be on the SEO side, especially because like they literally have to schedule themselves to where like on Thanksgiving. They have people that are on call and on duty.
01:19:21.180 –> 01:19:31.500
At all points in the day. Black Friday, whether you’re off you, and you’re not able to enjoy that time with your family because they have to have people on call all day every day.
01:19:32.310 –> 01:19:39.000
In Kelly. I like, I wonder, you know, especially with your work with hallmark if if that’s the type of schedule, you have to maintain. That’s crazy.
01:19:40.410 –> 01:19:45.750
Yeah, yeah. And we have multiple overnight pushes
01:19:46.770 –> 01:19:47.340
01:19:48.360 –> 01:19:57.840
This is the first job I’ve ever had. Where I have overnight phone what conference calls, and it’s fine. It is what it is like a roll said it’s part of the territory.
01:19:58.860 –> 01:20:09.900
But there’s definitely this this idea that you do need to be readily available, maybe don’t be where you can’t get to a computer for several hours so like
01:20:10.530 –> 01:20:28.470
When we’re driving back to Illinois for my family Christmas and December, I’m probably going to want to make sure that I have like a Wi Fi hotspot with me so that while my husband is driving. I can make changes to robots TXT files or something if there’s an emergency.
01:20:29.790 –> 01:20:33.300
But that said, we also kind of fall into certain
01:20:36.840 –> 01:20:51.840
Pattern of auto time of year I’m you know I’m not completely hands off for SEO, but it’s more break fix triage and troubleshooting then really active strategy so
01:20:53.280 –> 01:21:01.830
Let me ask you this. I’ve got two more questions and then because you’ve been up since 3am want to send you on your way for the for the weekend.
01:21:03.480 –> 01:21:19.620
This kind of discussion brings to light a very important point. And you being the mom of a soon to be one year old and myself being a parent of three kids under six one is going to be six months old ones having a birthday this weekend. Yay.
01:21:21.780 –> 01:21:24.630
How important is work life balance for you. And how do you maintain it.
01:21:25.620 –> 01:21:32.400
Oh so important when I was talking about my layoff experience. I mentioned that
01:21:33.210 –> 01:21:48.270
I wasn’t always good about separating who I was. I my identity from my career. And honestly, becoming a mom has kind of it really gave me the final push I needed to to be able to kind of segment my life a little bit more
01:21:49.500 –> 01:21:55.350
Obviously as an as a newlywed I put more emphasis on family time with my husband.
01:21:57.480 –> 01:22:07.020
But there’s something about the only having two hours a day between the end of the workday, and the baby’s bed time to get to be a family together.
01:22:07.440 –> 01:22:21.420
That really makes you set more solid boundaries and work life balance isn’t. I don’t even really necessarily like that term because the two never fully separate it’s about
01:22:23.460 –> 01:22:35.070
It’s about finding a way to mesh them together. That’s constructive for you and allows you to care for the people you care about, but still fulfill your responsibilities to your work.
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And sometimes that means I get the baby down and then I open my laptop and I’m working again or it means
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You know, leaving work earlier coming in late because there’s something going on with daycare.
01:22:50.070 –> 01:22:57.900
Like he had his little Halloween party at school. A few weeks ago and I got to go and see him and a little Halloween parade.
01:22:58.200 –> 01:23:10.440
dresses and he was like, of course, I’m going to leave work early to go do that. But sometimes that means that you know the the late night time gets redirected it’s really just about
01:23:11.700 –> 01:23:23.790
Setting your boundaries, making sure that you’re in the trenches with good people because balance of any sort, is not a possibility. If you don’t have good peers and colleagues that have your back.
01:23:25.980 –> 01:23:26.460
01:23:27.570 –> 01:23:34.350
But I mean, working in the field. We work in anytime you work in digital there’s a chance that you’re going to have to be on call or
01:23:35.910 –> 01:23:36.360
01:23:38.010 –> 01:23:43.380
Some issues going to arise and suddenly you know your weekends gone because
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You’re fixing something that broke suddenly
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So you just you make it work. And do you take care of yourself and you prioritize your own well being and the well being of your family. My biggest
01:24:01.350 –> 01:24:11.040
My biggest like pet peeve with this is people who don’t think that they need to take care of themselves. In addition to taking care of everyone they care about.
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I’m a big advocate of you can’t pour out of an empty cup. So in addition to like this two hours and evening. Those are family time. There’s also a certain element of like
01:24:26.580 –> 01:24:33.630
Okay. Hey, since my husband’s already up and what’s the baby. I can sleep in a little bit because I need some self care or
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You know, here’s a half an hour to take a shower and like just sit for a little while. Just because we’re, we are in this crunch and
01:24:43.470 –> 01:25:01.740
If you’re, if you’re not striking that balance of like yourself, your work, your family, and any other obligations, you get burnt out, and then you stop enjoying what you do. Right. And I love what I do. I don’t want it to feel like a chore.
01:25:03.630 –> 01:25:05.400
And speaking of loving what you do.
01:25:06.720 –> 01:25:14.670
I’m sure that you do this with with people that you work with, especially new people. But one way that I want to start ending this podcast and we did it.
01:25:15.540 –> 01:25:27.930
A lot last season. We haven’t done it so much this season is asking the question, if you were to give advice to somebody getting into the industry literally today. This second, what would you say to them.
01:25:35.550 –> 01:25:36.660
01:25:38.790 –> 01:25:42.690
We may be working on robots all day and we
01:25:44.040 –> 01:25:53.190
May interface. Most of the time through computers, but everyone you work with as a person just trying to do their best and
01:25:55.350 –> 01:26:05.520
The partners that I’ve worked with at any job freelancing day job agency in house as a client as a vendor.
01:26:07.980 –> 01:26:18.690
The end of the day, the most successful campaigns. The most successful sites companies, whatever are the ones with the people that really have each other’s backs.
01:26:19.440 –> 01:26:30.090
And understand the value that each other, bring to the table. So I may be the only SEO strategist in my company, but I’m not alone.
01:26:31.860 –> 01:26:45.270
I’m I make a point to surround myself with people way smarter than me and I learned from them and I have all of these friends on Twitter because, of course, you make friends on Twitter. When you have 51,000 tweets.
01:26:48.750 –> 01:27:02.220
But like really really having strong relationships and being open to relationships with curiosity and empathy. That to me is the secret to
01:27:04.080 –> 01:27:12.330
Thriving in your career. And that looks different for everyone, but it comes down to being a decent human
01:27:14.430 –> 01:27:22.140
It’s, it’s funny that is different. It’s actually really amazing advice, but it is so different than what other people have
01:27:23.370 –> 01:27:25.740
Have said, and it’s very, very true.
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:39.450
I mean I, if you think about literally everything that FCO ends up impacting across the the stream of a company’s evolution.
01:27:40.620 –> 01:27:52.650
Like if you’re working in retail. The way that product is name named ends up impacting your website. So then should you be building relationships with the people that name the product.
01:27:54.210 –> 01:28:04.860
You know, depending on how your structured, you may be doing the keyword integration yourself or you may be having to train copywriters to do their own keyword research, in which case
01:28:05.190 –> 01:28:14.070
They need to trust you and have a good relationship with you or if you’re an agency side or freelancer working with clients.
01:28:16.080 –> 01:28:23.970
If they don’t trust you. You’re never going to get anything done, especially if they’re handing over the keys to the whole kingdom to you so
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It’s, it’s really about relationships and for all of the digital we do at the end of the day it’s another person sitting up that other computer. Absolutely.
01:28:35.610 –> 01:28:50.850
everybody’s always everybody’s always dealing with something and empathy. Empathy is so hard in it, but such a valuable skill and relationships, it’s just good life advice. That’s what we’re. That’s what we’re given here on the page to podcasts life advice.
01:28:51.930 –> 01:28:58.800
Anyways, Kelly Thank you for coming on. I we totally appreciate it. We know you you’ve
01:28:59.940 –> 01:29:09.420
Extra appreciate it, in light of the fact that you’ve been up since 3am but really appreciate it was great conversation. Thank you so much and go. Have a good weekend.
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This is great.
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