In today’s episode, we talk with Martha van Berkel, CEO and Co-Founder of SchemaApp, a service that empowers the Digital Marketer to own their schema markup strategy through to implementation without ever writing code or engaging with IT.
We talk about her background in mathematics and engineering (she also attended the MIT Sloan school of management). We also discuss how she spent almost 14 years at Cisco, what it’s like to be an innovator at an otherwise slow-moving, highly-bureaucratic company, and the circumstances that led to her going out on her own and eventually forming her own company with her husband.
In the news, we talk about Google’s recent broad core algorithm update and share our thoughts on how the industry reacts to algo updates as well as our own approaches.
And finally, we deep dive into structured data, how brands can use it, as well as what challenges SEOs face with schema and getting it implemented.
Also, follow Schema App on Twitter.
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By Jacob Stoops — 6 months ago
We have an amazing episode in store for you today as we have not one, but two guests!
We had such a free-flowing conversation that we ditched the traditional format (as you will soon find out) and we covered a ton of topics including:
- Ashley and Jamie’s backgrounds and career progressions into SEO
- Their amazing friendship
- Why they love technical SEO
- Dealing with impostor syndrome and self doubt
- Public speaking and writing
- The conference circuit
And so much more.
00:00:01.380 –> 00:00:21.510
Jacob Stoops: Alright. Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops we are back for another episode of the page to podcast and today we have a very, very special episode where we have not one, but two guests and I will let you know who those guests are in a moment. But first, I’ve got to say hi to Jeff.
00:00:21.870 –> 00:00:22.560
Jeff Louella: Hello everybody.
00:00:22.710 –> 00:00:24.630
Jacob Stoops: And everything. Make sure we don’t skip Jeff.
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Jacob Stoops: And then guests. Number one is going to be Miss Jamie Alberico. Jamie, how’s it going
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Jamie Alberico: I’m so sad to be that guy. First thing in the podcast, it’s out there we go.
00:00:38.700 –> 00:00:39.000
00:00:40.740 –> 00:00:41.160
Jacob Stoops: You. I am
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Jacob Stoops: I gave you the Midwest pronunciation with the Bad accent. So I am
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Jamie Alberico: Okay.
00:00:49.740 –> 00:00:50.250
00:00:51.390 –> 00:00:52.740
Jamie Alberico: It means else King
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Jacob Stoops: What, no.
00:00:54.390 –> 00:00:54.660
00:00:55.980 –> 00:01:01.980
Jamie Alberico: Alberico means elf King, Jamie means usurper.
00:01:02.430 –> 00:01:02.760
00:01:04.950 –> 00:01:11.400
Jacob Stoops: Well, I would say, I was gonna say Game of Thrones. Because of you, soccer, but elf is more Lord of the Rings, so
00:01:11.670 –> 00:01:13.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Or D, amp D do it on
00:01:13.440 –> 00:01:25.410
Jacob Stoops: there or there you go that’s that’s probably a better a better reference, but I actually don’t play d&d so the other person speaking, surprise surprise is Miss Ashley Berman Hale. Hi. How’s it going, Ashley.
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Jamie Alberico: Good. I couldn’t keep
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Ashley Berman Hale: My mouth shut, until you
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Jacob Stoops: Enjoy your now.
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Jacob Stoops: Did I pronounce your name right.
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Ashley Berman Hale: No.
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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.
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Ashley Berman Hale: Thank you very much.
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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s nothing like face palming the the intros and messing up somebody’s name immediately. So
00:01:46.020 –> 00:01:47.220
Jacob Stoops: Can wish I was the
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Jacob Stoops: Was the first time I’ve done that. But it’s but it’s not you think I’d learned
00:01:51.960 –> 00:02:01.470
Jacob Stoops: Cool. So thank you everybody for being here. I know in Jamie’s case she’s kind of out on the West Coast. So it’s a very early morning so
00:02:02.040 –> 00:02:10.560
Jacob Stoops: Extra Special that she has decided to join us. I did want to make a few remarks and tell a quick story before we kind of dive in.
00:02:11.340 –> 00:02:24.510
Jacob Stoops: The one, one thing is I wanted to pay a bit of tribute my wife’s Grandpa. We just came from his funeral. This weekend and today actually would be his 100th birthday.
00:02:25.290 –> 00:02:40.800
Jacob Stoops: So he decided to to not wait we had planned a surprise birthday party for him on this this past Saturday, and we were, we had had hired a an old
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Jacob Stoops: Style crooner we had had because he’s a Italian we had had a nice Catholic
00:02:49.890 –> 00:03:00.480
Jacob Stoops: BLEEP something sent from the actual Pope in Rome, we had had the governor of Kentucky, the President of the Cincinnati Reds all kinds of people.
00:03:01.680 –> 00:03:06.540
Jacob Stoops: provided some really special things for him to honor his 100th birthday.
00:03:07.020 –> 00:03:18.120
Jacob Stoops: Unfortunately, about three weeks ago he passed away and he pulled one over on us. So instead of going to a surprise 100th birthday party. We went to his funeral this weekend.
00:03:18.390 –> 00:03:37.500
Jacob Stoops: But today, would have been his actual 100th birthday. So what I can only hope is that he, his wife preceded him by about five years is that she called him up to spend his hundredth birthday with her. So Hank Picciano if you can somehow, hear me, we love you and we miss you already
00:03:39.210 –> 00:03:41.100
Jacob Stoops: So now, now that I’m
00:03:42.540 –> 00:03:48.750
Jacob Stoops: A little sad. Sorry, I’m trying goes, it’s still a little Ross of trying to do. I’m trying to hold it back here, but
00:03:49.830 –> 00:03:57.990
Jacob Stoops: Wanted to tell the story of how we were able to book both Jamie and Ashley at the same time and
00:03:58.770 –> 00:04:08.100
Jacob Stoops: I hope that it didn’t come across super creepy. But basically, when we were thinking about Season two. And we were trying to figure out, okay,
00:04:08.400 –> 00:04:23.670
Jacob Stoops: Here’s everybody that we’ve already talked to, and here are the people and it’s a large group of people. You guys are extra, extra special. Obviously, but it’s a large group of people, because there are just so many fantastic SEOs in the in the space and honestly
00:04:24.720 –> 00:04:29.550
Jacob Stoops: We’re going to try to interview every single one of them, because there are so many, but it could take years.
00:04:30.270 –> 00:04:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Which is a good thing. Since we have a podcast but basically we when we had thought about who we want on Ashley and Jamie were kind of close to the top of the list.
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Jacob Stoops: And so we had started, we had started reaching out to people and especially in cases where you don’t directly know each other’s but you are kind of tangentially connected
00:04:52.380 –> 00:04:58.950
Jacob Stoops: As we were in a, in a few cases, you just kind of go through the the different channels. The, the email.
00:04:59.250 –> 00:05:10.770
Jacob Stoops: We use you use whatever’s available to us. So Jeff was connected to Ashley through a text Slack channel. I was connected to to Jamie through Twitter.
00:05:11.220 –> 00:05:21.060
Jacob Stoops: And then we had found somehow emails. I think we pulled them from Jamie, I think I called your email from your website.
00:05:21.780 –> 00:05:33.090
Jacob Stoops: I think it’s not not a robot, which I want to ask about that. And then I somehow we found Ashley’s here. I don’t know. But anyway, so we’re reaching out and we’re in the process. And it’s occurring on the same day and
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Jacob Stoops: We came to found out to find out that not only were we both reaching out to you guys. At the same time, you are literally sitting in the same room while we’re trying to schedule this so
00:05:47.670 –> 00:05:55.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that especially because you didn’t know us directly. It was like these creepy guys trying to schedule us for a pot.
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Jacob Stoops: Yes.
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Jamie Alberico: Actually these guys want to schedule a murder. What are you doing,
00:06:00.420 –> 00:06:00.780
00:06:03.330 –> 00:06:03.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Numbers.
00:06:06.750 –> 00:06:07.140
Jacob Stoops: Vary
00:06:08.580 –> 00:06:09.060
Jacob Stoops: But you guys
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Jamie Alberico: Ashley had just ordered some some birthday brunch for me. And we were at my kitchen table and drain eggs Benedict and something to listen to a local bit around here. And yeah, we both got the same message like hey, she just got an invitation for pitch to
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Jamie Alberico: The oh
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Jeff Louella: Yes, funny.
00:06:32.910 –> 00:06:40.560
Jacob Stoops: Well luckily it all. It all worked out. You guys are a good sports and we appreciate you all coming on. So,
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Jacob Stoops: As as everybody who listens to this podcast knows the hallmark is origin stories backgrounds and what it’s like to be to be an SEO and since we have two
00:06:55.560 –> 00:07:03.780
Jacob Stoops: Guests on this podcast, we’re going to be doing two interviews and depending on timing will probably skip, skip the news. Maybe we’ll
00:07:04.350 –> 00:07:22.560
Jacob Stoops: We were going to maybe talk about tech SEO boost, but I think we can skip that for now. But we’re going to be doing to background story interviews and then later on a deep dive into just general technical SEO. So who wants to go first. Who would like to step up to the plate.
00:07:23.250 –> 00:07:23.760
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Jamie Alberico: Oh you have see
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Jacob Stoops: All right, Jamie. Since it’s six in the morning or seven in the morning there and you’re
00:07:35.700 –> 00:07:37.140
Jacob Stoops: Fresh on game.
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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah, I was bitten by a radioactive search engine.
00:07:42.570 –> 00:07:44.460
Jamie Alberico: My Uncle Ben and now I’m here.
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Now you’re here.
00:07:46.920 –> 00:07:50.460
Jacob Stoops: Miss Peter Parker Pedro Parker. Oh.
00:07:54.480 –> 00:08:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: What was I here, for I got frustrated with other jobs and I like to tinker. All right. Um, I mean we can tell the long story if you want actual details. Is that what this podcast is about
00:08:05.550 –> 00:08:08.640
Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly. I was gonna say well podcast is over a
00:08:10.110 –> 00:08:11.940
Jamie Alberico: Couple of little one liners are like
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Jamie Alberico: cash the check.
00:08:14.550 –> 00:08:14.760
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Ashley Berman Hale: I think that was Jamie’s really good job of loving it back to me because
00:08:20.910 –> 00:08:23.430
Ashley Berman Hale: There for me to call not it. So I will get started.
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Ashley Berman Hale: I have a degree in art history which is fantastically useless in the traditional sense.
00:08:33.120 –> 00:08:40.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I love it. Critical thinking is something that is a little bit tough to teach. If you don’t have it. So thank you, college for giving me that
00:08:40.950 –> 00:08:51.600
Ashley Berman Hale: And the first non waitress job I took or non dish dish washing and a bar or non making coffee was a sit down job at a small startup.
00:08:52.050 –> 00:09:02.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Where I had to answer, answer emails for people who are too busy to answer their own emails and pretend to do that. So that was how I got started made friends with the CFO did some audience because I’m picky as hell.
00:09:02.850 –> 00:09:19.980
Ashley Berman Hale: And knew that there was money missing saved him a bunch of money. They got bought out by Overstock and so we got tossed in I got brought down to the exact office there to help out and had someone say, here’s a giant fucking spreadsheet. This is pay per click. Can you figure it out.
00:09:21.390 –> 00:09:26.670
Ashley Berman Hale: And that was tough. And I said, I don’t like this. And I like cool. How about XML sitemap, have you heard of those
00:09:27.750 –> 00:09:35.940
Ashley Berman Hale: So the way that I got started as just trying to figure out how to do that for a big site with lots of inventory. I went and asked questions in a forum, I believe so strongly and
00:09:36.360 –> 00:09:44.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Sharing public information and helping each other. So while I was asking and waiting for an answer. I decided to answer some other questions and got stuck here.
00:09:46.170 –> 00:09:58.800
Ashley Berman Hale: God there’s ultimate nerd forum environments for me to learn in and for me to be moderately accepted by and then I kind of hopped around a bit and found myself very comfortably nestled in the technical SEO spot for a software company.
00:10:00.690 –> 00:10:00.960
00:10:02.640 –> 00:10:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: High five.
00:10:04.710 –> 00:10:14.130
Ashley Berman Hale: High five. That’s, I mean, I’m still a really good. Well, no, I’m not. I’m still a really good dishwasher and a moderately okay waitress. So I’ve got backup plans.
00:10:14.730 –> 00:10:16.590
Jamie Alberico: How many friends today. Gary Owens now.
00:10:17.070 –> 00:10:17.820
00:10:19.020 –> 00:10:20.250
Ashley Berman Hale: My, my arms.
00:10:21.690 –> 00:10:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Around children. So, you know,
00:10:25.170 –> 00:10:26.640
Jamie Alberico: fallback plan is ready.
00:10:28.740 –> 00:10:40.350
Jeff Louella: Yeah. During the dark during the.com bust. I went to bartending school because I figured the internet was going to go away. And I was like, you know, one thing people like to do when times are bad is drink so
00:10:41.670 –> 00:10:57.030
Ashley Berman Hale: I believe it. My family owned a bar and like the Dyess state in the tree. So my family were bar owners in Utah, and actually under brewery in Montana and they always did. Okay. Because whenever there is, you know, a lot of money or religious oppression beer helps. Yeah.
00:10:59.100 –> 00:11:03.120
Jamie Alberico: And actually makes really good homemade Kula and it’s almost Christmas Ashley.
00:11:03.240 –> 00:11:04.260
Jamie Alberico: I know well
00:11:04.350 –> 00:11:08.940
Ashley Berman Hale: I will bring you a batch. I’m making a local New York match. But then I’ll be back to Colorado. Nice.
00:11:09.450 –> 00:11:12.240
Jeff Louella: Guy have three gallons of lemon cello going on back here for
00:11:13.110 –> 00:11:15.030
Ashley Berman Hale: Them. He’s not lying it people
00:11:16.770 –> 00:11:21.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Dang. All right, jack you got plans later I’m gonna hang out with you.
00:11:21.990 –> 00:11:23.790
Jeff Louella: All right, let’s do it. I got tons of stuff here.
00:11:24.600 –> 00:11:26.160
Jeff Louella: The whole wall whiskies over here to
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Jamie Alberico: Why are we not doing this from just garage.
00:11:30.420 –> 00:11:31.080
Jeff Louella: Come on.
00:11:31.590 –> 00:11:34.080
Ashley Berman Hale: All right, Jamie I deferred you long enough. Now you have to tell
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Jamie Alberico: Magical story. I did the coffee kicking. I was supposed to be a player, right, which is a weird thing to say. And I guess I can certainly do that.
00:11:44.190 –> 00:11:59.520
Jamie Alberico: But that’s where my degree is in my passion was like, I’m gonna write plays and comic books, and then the recession in 2008 head and call times were longer than normal. And I’m trying to contact my student loan folk and find some way to pay them and he
00:12:00.810 –> 00:12:03.840
Jamie Alberico: You know, I was waiting tables at a sushi bar and
00:12:05.010 –> 00:12:12.690
Jamie Alberico: Wasn’t really glamorous bit and got into basically any job that would get me away from cutting my fingers and carrying
00:12:14.010 –> 00:12:15.750
Jamie Alberico: His family without being pushy, the end of the day.
00:12:20.790 –> 00:12:23.760
Jamie Alberico: It’s a really where my stories prematurely.
00:12:26.640 –> 00:12:29.010
Jamie Alberico: Like I did other things at some point somewhere.
00:12:31.320 –> 00:12:44.160
Jamie Alberico: I was a blogger Outreach Manager. That was my first gig, which is pre Penguin on if you are trying to connect to me on LinkedIn. Right now, I would offer the pro tip of remove
00:12:45.510 –> 00:12:48.720
Jamie Alberico: link building from your title before you send that letter.
00:12:48.720 –> 00:12:54.570
Jamie Alberico: Susan, thank you. I’m sure you’re a lovely human I’ve just been hurt before by choosing to copy pasta.
00:12:56.730 –> 00:13:04.320
Jamie Alberico: To the job and house for e commerce company. We like to me doesn’t products and I look back and go, Oh, it’s so cute little that
00:13:05.550 –> 00:13:12.750
Jamie Alberico: actually ended up working for Ashley. So here’s where I story interconnected. Yeah.
00:13:14.010 –> 00:13:26.580
Jamie Alberico: I interviewed a local agency and then local Jeannine the first interview, do you think is great. Like, we’re gonna put you on a video interview with our had tech SEO. We were like team Tomahawk
00:13:27.510 –> 00:13:27.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, that’s
00:13:28.380 –> 00:13:29.970
Ashley Berman Hale: Bad racial appropriation.
00:13:31.500 –> 00:13:33.570
Jamie Alberico: Sorry, I’m stating historical facts.
00:13:33.600 –> 00:13:35.370
Jamie Alberico: admitting to whitewash history right now.
00:13:36.720 –> 00:13:38.580
Jamie Alberico: And we’ve learned better and we’re doing better.
00:13:38.610 –> 00:13:41.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just have a lot of apologies in life.
00:13:44.130 –> 00:13:57.390
Jamie Alberico: Hashtag relatable well interview with Ashley, I’m there was this this magical creature who knew all this world of technical SEO is just like a PG podcast. What kind of language. Can I bring to the table right now and reenact
00:13:57.780 –> 00:13:58.950
Jacob Stoops: Wherever you’re comfortable with.
00:14:00.870 –> 00:14:01.320
Jacob Stoops: George
00:14:02.760 –> 00:14:03.000
Jeff Louella: You’re
00:14:03.870 –> 00:14:05.760
Jamie Alberico: In trouble if I tell if I
00:14:06.120 –> 00:14:11.640
Jamie Alberico: Tell the internet that it was love at first Cocker so I’m interviewing with Ashley and we’re talking
00:14:12.360 –> 00:14:26.160
Jamie Alberico: I don’t remember what the deal was I think about previous job and what it was like waiting tables and somehow the story of an individual thing rather cantankerous king came up and actually
00:14:29.100 –> 00:14:33.060
Jamie Alberico: Miss, miss a big like always being a cock sucker. When you’re that guy.
00:14:34.830 –> 00:14:41.430
Jamie Alberico: On a moment we bonded and the person that hired me immediately most tech out to john Schilling, at that time, because they took us. He goes, where
00:14:41.820 –> 00:14:48.780
Jamie Alberico: And the bathroom children have both Marketing SEO traditional style and dev didn’t really have a new should have our own just yet.
00:14:49.410 –> 00:15:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I picked them several months they, you know, kick it back to me and be like, Yeah, I want you to join the team and that time I like waiting for Android little cards like, Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to interview I really want to work with Ashley.
00:15:04.050 –> 00:15:16.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And I will do anything once somebody flatters me and we have great chemistry. So it was, it was awesome, because it was really important to me to always do some peer collaboration with technical SEO, in particular, just like you do peer reviews. When you’re coding
00:15:17.850 –> 00:15:22.050
Ashley Berman Hale: And it’s really important to me to reach back and bring more women, along with me so
00:15:23.730 –> 00:15:34.410
Ashley Berman Hale: I wasn’t far ahead and I’m certainly am a decent click behind Jamie now because she’s, she’s had a really fast trajectory. But the fact that I can bring more women on to a technical team was really fucking awesome.
00:15:36.180 –> 00:15:40.080
Jamie Alberico: It was 100 recent article women on that game. Yeah, yeah. There were two of us.
00:15:41.370 –> 00:15:41.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Math.
00:15:41.670 –> 00:15:42.030
Jeff Louella: Jackie.
00:15:42.780 –> 00:15:43.290
00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:47.040
Jeff Louella: It’s awesome. So
00:15:47.640 –> 00:15:58.080
Jacob Stoops: So I think the first thing I would ask is what is it about technical SEO that excites both of you will like why because there’s there’s all kinds of different types of SEO like
00:15:59.070 –> 00:16:06.090
Jacob Stoops: Depending on like different bat. It’s like you almost get to pick and choose what kind of SEO you like to do, and I feel like
00:16:07.650 –> 00:16:22.620
Jacob Stoops: You kind of have to be able to dabble in a little bit of everything. But I feel like over the course of time people develop their specialty based on you know what they what they enjoy most. So what is it about technical SEO specifically that you guys enjoy
00:16:23.580 –> 00:16:32.460
Ashley Berman Hale: I like thinking about the evolution of it. I always think of the adage that, you know, back in the day, everyone was their town doctor and you’re going to college. This was also your dentist.
00:16:33.060 –> 00:16:41.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Let that sink in for a second and then, you know, we started getting better and getting specialist. So I think we’re in a really cool time of SEO where there are these deep specialists.
00:16:42.600 –> 00:16:51.360
Ashley Berman Hale: I got into technical SEO because I was just so curious. Like, that seems so smart and clever and an interesting
00:16:53.310 –> 00:17:01.170
Ashley Berman Hale: That I wanted to learn it and I wanted to learn from smart people. Also, I am just a shitty marketer, like the anti marketer. I can’t write
00:17:01.770 –> 00:17:17.460
Ashley Berman Hale: Like if someone asked me write a blog, I would rather quit my job I’ve come close before a video the nine. The people who hired us who were very gentle and patient, they definitely gave up after making me white write one blog, and I, I just, I can’t promote and so for me.
00:17:17.490 –> 00:17:21.510
Jamie Alberico: For like 4000 words, it’s still one of the best resources on
00:17:23.580 –> 00:17:24.780
Jamie Alberico: Security at that time.
00:17:24.900 –> 00:17:25.830
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, well, I
00:17:26.160 –> 00:17:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Wrote Gordon Duff and beautiful.
00:17:31.050 –> 00:17:33.390
Jamie Alberico: White Paper, essentially. So let me give you credit
00:17:33.810 –> 00:17:34.080
00:17:36.240 –> 00:17:43.500
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, not liking it. It’s really hard, whereas the technical stuff. I am a voice and a snoop. And that’s why I like the Internet.
00:17:43.860 –> 00:17:54.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I snoop on people in my free time and I snoop on your site during work time and that’s why I love it. I like to go find problems and tinker and figure out what somebody busted and how we can make it better.
00:17:55.860 –> 00:17:56.400
About you, James.
00:17:58.410 –> 00:18:10.860
Jamie Alberico: Oh, I fell in love with technical SEO I missed it. I was hired for cascade and as a marketing SEO went to work on the blog and all that, but in my domain was, you know, monitoring our
00:18:11.430 –> 00:18:19.800
Jamie Alberico: keywords and we were, I think, the second or third largest e commerce site for restaurant equipment on suddenly all of my rankings just
00:18:20.340 –> 00:18:29.100
Jamie Alberico: fell out they’ll drop the bomb dropped them and maybe we can figure out what’s going on. And that led down and it’s really good 11 day binge.
00:18:29.520 –> 00:18:43.740
Jamie Alberico: Like some people go to Vegas when they go on a binge. I went like an 11 day binge of like trying to figure out what happened to this website. And at the end of it. It was a home of homebrew CMS, the result we had to break the site. Fine.
00:18:44.880 –> 00:18:59.340
Jamie Alberico: And kind of start from scratch. I had to go here and learn about how to map all of the specific content together, how to figure out when things were no longer useful. That’s my son yelling at us right now, by the way. Hi tank boy. Say hello to the internet.
00:19:02.460 –> 00:19:11.310
Jacob Stoops: By the way, I super impressed that you managed to keep talking without breaking stride as you let your cat in and open your curtains. That was pretty. That was pretty awesome.
00:19:12.300 –> 00:19:16.290
Jamie Alberico: Sorry internet tank takes precedence on all matters. Yeah.
00:19:18.390 –> 00:19:22.830
Jamie Alberico: That’s, yeah. I fell in love with mechanical co authoring getting that chance to
00:19:24.060 –> 00:19:35.100
Jamie Alberico: Say what we say a dying site. We have to go through to make a series of very dramatic changes and that rebuilding at home growing CML and increasingly great band of it.
00:19:37.950 –> 00:19:40.020
Jeff Louella: I think it comes down to a lot of
00:19:41.040 –> 00:19:55.350
Jeff Louella: A lot of people get here, and that’s one reason I love like the origin story he’s because we all get here in different ways and whether you’re coming from a technical background or not it. We all one thing we have in common is that curiosity to dive deep
00:19:55.680 –> 00:20:00.930
Jeff Louella: And 11 days to their I spent. It’s funny, I used to do web development and
00:20:02.070 –> 00:20:19.020
Jeff Louella: Most of my friends were on AT LIKE AFTER MIDNIGHT AND ONCE A while I’m not on online as much that late night. But when I am. It’s still the same people, same developer guys like cuz it’s like some reason my brain starts tweaking and start doing well at like 11 o’clock. Yeah, so
00:20:19.080 –> 00:20:22.740
Jamie Alberico: That weird golden hour of Cannibal logical brain that
00:20:22.770 –> 00:20:25.320
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, we do later in the evening.
00:20:26.760 –> 00:20:38.130
Jeff Louella: So it’s fun. And I’ve spent many, many, many hours just like going down a rabbit hole and no one ever know like at the end of the day, my wife will be like, what are we doing go four in the morning, not just like
00:20:38.670 –> 00:20:45.510
Jeff Louella: I don’t know. I was trying to get some code work and sometimes it’s just you missed a period somewhere and now it’s two in the morning and
00:20:45.780 –> 00:20:46.020
00:20:47.070 –> 00:20:47.760
Jamie Alberico: fancy clothes.
00:20:51.090 –> 00:21:01.710
Jeff Louella: So, and then having that like coming into the SEO side of things, really, kind of, it’s interesting. It’s one thing I have trouble with with new guys coming into SEO. It’s like
00:21:02.610 –> 00:21:07.290
Jeff Louella: I want to learn technical SEO and I’m like, are you willing to stay up for 10 days and try
00:21:07.890 –> 00:21:21.180
Jeff Louella: Out some piece of something that just drives you crazy. You can’t go to sleep until you figure it out and and you can’t teach that, of course, and it’s one of those where we trying to figure out what like how do I get that into a lot of my team. How do I get into them and
00:21:21.930 –> 00:21:23.010
Jamie Alberico: Either. How do I do that.
00:21:23.100 –> 00:21:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Cheryl ambition interview process. You just give them two pieces of drinking a paperclip go kidnap and see
00:21:30.810 –> 00:21:33.720
Jamie Alberico: If they can do is that you’re new to this.
00:21:34.020 –> 00:21:34.950
Jeff Louella: Never thought about that one.
00:21:35.250 –> 00:21:36.210
Jacob Stoops: MacGyver style.
00:21:36.690 –> 00:21:45.900
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, I mean I was figuring out how to make an unusual shape spec for they had the actual app items when
00:21:46.350 –> 00:21:56.730
Jamie Alberico: I was a game changer for me a call. I can go ahead and make all these API calls. And I can begin to reuse this work and, you know, each time I do I swap out, pick up, pick and choose configuration and
00:21:57.210 –> 00:22:12.270
Jamie Alberico: Let me scale up so they get good pieces learning to be a Technic technical SEO is after you’ve gone through and burn yourself out on an insane rabbit hole that you know showed you some great things as to how do I read that information.
00:22:13.980 –> 00:22:19.020
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re failing nine and 10 times tinkering around then SEO technical SEO for you.
00:22:20.040 –> 00:22:26.220
Jamie Alberico: So you want to fail, like a flying SPACE MONKEY and plume of fireworks and we have a career for you.
00:22:27.690 –> 00:22:41.250
Jacob Stoops: One thing I am finding interesting is I think three out of four of us have a background in the in the arts. So I come from a graphic design background. We’ve got an art history background.
00:22:41.760 –> 00:23:00.390
Jacob Stoops: And then kind of a playwriting background. And it’s like, That’s not very technical stuff I’m I mean I’m sure there is some technicality to it, but it’s not like code in as my in laws say Jake works on computers and really don’t, um,
00:23:02.190 –> 00:23:05.190
Jamie Alberico: I mean, check out gun applies the code and the playwriting
00:23:05.220 –> 00:23:05.670
Jacob Stoops: Right and
00:23:06.060 –> 00:23:07.890
Jamie Alberico: They got enough one a bit of fire and three
00:23:08.940 –> 00:23:22.410
Jacob Stoops: I just wonder where the not even necessarily the the technical SEO. The, the SEO part of it. But with that kind of a background amongst all of us, where do we feel like
00:23:22.980 –> 00:23:26.340
Jacob Stoops: The, the need and the passion because I’m very passionate about.
00:23:27.150 –> 00:23:36.060
Jacob Stoops: Technical SEO as well, although I don’t like to be bucket it as a technical SEO. I like to be bucket it as just more of a general like jack of all trades, but
00:23:36.630 –> 00:23:49.800
Jacob Stoops: There is a certain passion for getting in and getting my hands dirty and, you know, with a website and coming from a graphic design background. I just wonder like sometimes. Where did that come from.
00:23:49.890 –> 00:23:50.340
Ashley Berman Hale: I just
00:23:50.730 –> 00:24:06.780
Jacob Stoops: I can’t even put my put my finger on it because graphic design is more art, whereas I feel like technical and coding and building websites is a little bit more science. So I don’t know, maybe I feel like. And I guess I needed some balance in in the second half of my life.
00:24:07.380 –> 00:24:13.710
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have I have pretty strong feelings about that after being chastised for mocking my degree.
00:24:15.210 –> 00:24:19.530
Ashley Berman Hale: Listen, my dad looked at me and rolled his eyes and he said, good luck paying for college on your own.
00:24:20.160 –> 00:24:25.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But art history is one of those degrees, where people are like, what the hell are you going to do with that so
00:24:25.800 –> 00:24:29.430
Ashley Berman Hale: I will tell you that the greatest thing I learned from my degrees to spend time looking
00:24:30.150 –> 00:24:39.030
Ashley Berman Hale: And critical thinking. Because what you can do is you can uncover individual parts of a painting or learn about someone’s life or what was going on in the culture was going on in the economy.
00:24:39.570 –> 00:24:42.270
Ashley Berman Hale: With diseases were being spread based on the iconography.
00:24:42.750 –> 00:24:51.210
Ashley Berman Hale: And when you look at someone site, you’re essentially stripping back layers of. Where are they getting their imagery. What’s the content. What’s the history of the site and how many hands gone through
00:24:51.870 –> 00:25:01.860
Ashley Berman Hale: And then you pull back further to see what the bones are and where the skeletons are hidden the bad ones, the broken bones. I don’t know where I’m going with this. Yeah, but
00:25:01.890 –> 00:25:06.810
Jamie Alberico: Someone redesigned it and it was like that fresco about the will and his woman repainted.
00:25:07.140 –> 00:25:07.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, the none.
00:25:07.980 –> 00:25:10.530
Ashley Berman Hale: None that repainting yes we have done many
00:25:11.520 –> 00:25:12.540
Sites in our life.
00:25:13.860 –> 00:25:23.490
Ashley Berman Hale: But it does feel like there’s a really good intersection of I think Fine Arts and Humanities help teach people to be open about humans and to look critically
00:25:24.090 –> 00:25:37.380
Ashley Berman Hale: At what they create. And so while I have a laughable degree to some people, and I’ll be the first to make a joke. I really don’t think I could do what I do today without having spent the time and learning how to unravel the story from that degree.
00:25:39.030 –> 00:25:46.410
Jacob Stoops: I think that’s a great point night I honestly I never thought about it that way. And I remember being in college and thinking a little bit. The
00:25:47.220 –> 00:25:53.400
Jacob Stoops: The same thing as I was kind of getting getting deeper. Maybe that’s why it never actually worked worked out for me.
00:25:54.000 –> 00:26:11.850
Jacob Stoops: In terms of the graphic design in college and kind of taking that into A into a career because I was worried about money and how I was going to pay for things and so on and so forth. And it’s not necessarily unless you’re really, really, really good or really rare.
00:26:11.850 –> 00:26:16.770
Jacob Stoops: Talent not saying SEOs aren’t talented, but I think
00:26:17.850 –> 00:26:19.380
Jamie Alberico: At that again from the machine.
00:26:19.770 –> 00:26:21.030
Jamie Alberico: Right, while you’re in a job.
00:26:21.060 –> 00:26:35.010
Jacob Stoops: Great. You don’t even know. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like the timing for me was just right because this is like mid 2000s. And as I was flaming out of college SEO was
00:26:36.570 –> 00:26:47.640
Jacob Stoops: A great opportunity that not a lot of people could could do at that point in time. And I was like, well, well, there’s my differentiator. There’s what, there’s. What can make me unique and I feel like a lot of people
00:26:48.540 –> 00:27:08.580
Jacob Stoops: Ended up like that, in terms of looking looking for something else and not necessarily knowing what it was and not being able to put your finger on it. But before you know it, you’ve got a job in SEO at that time. Not a lot of people knew how to do which made it incredibly valuable.
00:27:09.900 –> 00:27:12.450
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. Was it was pretty that’s kind of
00:27:12.720 –> 00:27:14.700
Jamie Alberico: My philosophy.
00:27:15.960 –> 00:27:36.090
Jamie Alberico: And I find that my analytics philosophy is if if L statements for trying to muscle. So I absolutely deplorable and how good your do my mid term on the meaning of the word completely terrible back knowledge now deeply, deeply value that code is just living, we’re looking at it. Yeah.
00:27:37.980 –> 00:27:55.980
Jacob Stoops: So one thing I detected and Ashley, I’m calling you to the carpet again. And the reason I’m calling you to the carpet, not necessarily calling you to the carpet in a negative way we do talk a lot about self doubt and imposter syndrome and how
00:27:57.000 –> 00:28:11.940
Jacob Stoops: Powerful that can be and based on kind of what you had said about the writing and not necessarily feeling like you’re a good writer. And I’ve actually i feel like i’ve read your, your stuff for quite a while so like I think you’re doing something right.
00:28:13.830 –> 00:28:22.350
Jacob Stoops: Like, do you ever feel a sense of imposter syndrome and like self doubt. And I don’t know, I just, I always like to dive into that ask
00:28:22.770 –> 00:28:23.670
Jamie Alberico: You actually
00:28:25.470 –> 00:28:29.580
Ashley Berman Hale: Do I every single waking minutes, um,
00:28:30.600 –> 00:28:31.410
Ashley Berman Hale: No, I think that
00:28:31.470 –> 00:28:38.460
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, it’s a pendulum. I think that, in general, I feel like I am utter bullshit at most things
00:28:38.970 –> 00:28:46.470
Ashley Berman Hale: But the one thing that makes me feel good about myself and about the work that I’m doing is when I can help somebody else, whether it’s to solve a problem or
00:28:47.130 –> 00:28:53.280
Ashley Berman Hale: To get a better job I end up being this random career counselor and helping people get good jobs which I actually like I love doing.
00:28:54.960 –> 00:28:59.610
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really struggle with my knowledge and I had to come to terms with. I’m never going to be the
00:28:59.820 –> 00:29:05.220
Ashley Berman Hale: smartest person in the room. But if you’re the kind of person that surround yourself with smarter people like you’re in pretty you’re in a pretty good spot.
00:29:05.490 –> 00:29:12.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I may not be the most clever, but I do like to learn and I have an appetite to learn and to try to understand so
00:29:13.410 –> 00:29:21.600
Ashley Berman Hale: imposter syndrome is really, really, really, really real. And I suffered in other areas of my life, including being a parent and playing a sport, but
00:29:22.230 –> 00:29:28.500
Ashley Berman Hale: If you can find one thing about yourself that you can put work toward that you can feel good about I’ve found that it allows me to sort of keep going.
00:29:29.010 –> 00:29:40.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And when I can’t. I call Jamie and she usually tells me to buck up that I am an important person with, you know, capital T thoughts and I deserve to be here and I can help people so
00:29:41.340 –> 00:29:46.620
Ashley Berman Hale: But it is something I struggle with. And it’s not even this passive struggling, it’s, I mean, I can’t even tell you I have
00:29:46.950 –> 00:29:54.450
Ashley Berman Hale: So I have OCD, but like obsessive thought patterns and one that’s been in my head for about 17 years is waking up and just wanting to scream into the void Mia, what the fuck am I even doing
00:29:54.990 –> 00:30:11.070
Ashley Berman Hale: What is this like and you could probably go back through my Twitter and see like how many times I’ve actually tweeted tweeted that out is like what am I even doing to help. Um so yeah I don’t recommend it but if anyone wants to talk about the old capitalized syndrome from here.
00:30:11.220 –> 00:30:25.320
Jacob Stoops: Understand in the reason I asked was, and I hope it didn’t come across as rude. Um, I saw I suffer from it as well. It’s like it’s, it can be crushing sometimes and for me.
00:30:26.160 –> 00:30:42.840
Jacob Stoops: Part of digging myself out of it was that this podcast going and feeling like, hey, I am good enough to go and talk to all of these really smart people, and I do know enough to be able to hold my ground.
00:30:43.560 –> 00:30:53.640
Jacob Stoops: With some of the best best folks in the in the industry and there’s just, it’s not just here, it permeates a lot of different parts of my life, and it is it is a daily
00:30:54.420 –> 00:31:08.580
Jacob Stoops: A daily struggle, and I know like it has been other than SEO. In general, probably the most frequently reoccurring subject across every episode of the podcast. So in the industry for whatever
00:31:09.300 –> 00:31:22.050
Jacob Stoops: Reason, you’ve got a bunch of people suffering from imposter syndrome. And it’s, I just, I find it quite amazing because of how many smart people there are, that people
00:31:23.190 –> 00:31:32.760
Jacob Stoops: That are that are that are incredibly, incredibly talented don’t seem to believe in their self and I just keep asking why, why is that, and
00:31:33.330 –> 00:31:45.030
Jacob Stoops: I think one of the best things that can come out of this podcast is to let people know. Like, you’re not alone. Some of the best people in the industry have self doubt literally all the time.
00:31:46.710 –> 00:31:48.600
Ashley Berman Hale: All the time. All the time and
00:31:48.690 –> 00:31:50.700
Jamie Alberico: I think our industry is made for it, though.
00:31:50.910 –> 00:31:51.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, it really is.
00:31:52.950 –> 00:31:55.260
Jamie Alberico: Our end everything we do.
00:31:55.740 –> 00:31:56.040
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.
00:31:56.130 –> 00:32:02.010
Jamie Alberico: I’m there is very much the chance. You’ve been down this rabbit hole for so long. You come back up. You like Melbourne coast.
00:32:03.360 –> 00:32:09.540
Jamie Alberico: You’re no longer sure if you’ve gone full broken Roomba or have you figured out something incredibly valuable. Yeah, yeah.
00:32:09.990 –> 00:32:17.940
Jacob Stoops: And I feel like there are times, especially if you work on the agency side. I haven’t necessarily experienced this quite as much in house but like
00:32:18.780 –> 00:32:37.890
Jacob Stoops: There’s a lot of pressure and you can be the the best SEO, but if you’re putting a situation where there’s just no opportunity to succeed, doesn’t really matter how good of an SEO, you are. For example, if a client doesn’t implement your recommendations and then nothing
00:32:37.890 –> 00:32:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Happens right so
00:32:39.570 –> 00:32:48.210
Jacob Stoops: I think even the best SEOs go through a lot of failure and hopefully a lot of success as well, right, or we wouldn’t have jobs, but I think there’s a fear of
00:32:48.780 –> 00:32:55.620
Jacob Stoops: Failure with our clients as well as success and sometimes it’s in our hands and a lot of times it’s not
00:32:56.610 –> 00:33:08.910
Jacob Stoops: And I think for me, like there are times when that part of its crushing like okay, what can I say to make them think differently or to make them realize that hey, this is actually
00:33:09.330 –> 00:33:16.950
Jacob Stoops: We’re doing. We’re doing well, even if the results don’t fight look like it yet, stuff like that. So there’s a lot of pressure.
00:33:17.700 –> 00:33:21.840
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, sorry. Is it okay if I hop back in here cuz yeah
00:33:22.380 –> 00:33:35.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, and you’re dealing with such smart people. Right. I might think I’m clever and then I take two days off to roller skate and drink myself into oblivion, and come back and the entire industry has changed. So it’s very easy to feel like you’re slipping.
00:33:37.080 –> 00:33:44.550
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really, really love this new trend that our industry has of kind of coming together to support each other because I have a pretty big gap.
00:33:45.150 –> 00:33:54.540
Ashley Berman Hale: In my SEO career as far as paid jobs and it was because of the toxic environment and the culture that we were in it just didn’t feel good it felt kind of gross like there was some shitty things happening.
00:33:56.220 –> 00:34:05.460
Ashley Berman Hale: But now I i love that people are talking more to each other. If you don’t know Mary Davies and the industry. She has created groups that help people and give them a safe place to talk about
00:34:05.760 –> 00:34:16.740
Ashley Berman Hale: Their personal struggles that I find really incredible. And for me, personally, I’ve I’m trying to be very brave capital, be brave, about talking about my mental illness and my doubts and the bad days that I have
00:34:17.430 –> 00:34:25.950
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have felt not only accepted but embraced and holy shit, I still have a job like some of the stuff I say in public. I can’t believe but
00:34:26.460 –> 00:34:30.990
Ashley Berman Hale: Being able to be out there and be vulnerable hasn’t hurt my career as far as I know.
00:34:31.740 –> 00:34:41.340
Ashley Berman Hale: But I would just encourage anyone if you’re in that place and you feel any sort of really from talking about it. You’re in good company and not in good company. As in, like, hell yeah let’s have a depression party.
00:34:42.900 –> 00:34:52.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I have thrown other parties that are better, but you’re in good company in that there’s generally some really compassionate people here that can empathize and can stand by you.
00:34:53.460 –> 00:34:59.880
Ashley Berman Hale: And sometimes that’s all you mean like sometimes I get a lot just from going to Jamie’s house or meeting somewhere and working side by side without even talking
00:35:01.290 –> 00:35:04.170
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve worked remotely for 10 years. So that’s very important.
00:35:05.220 –> 00:35:07.290
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, come on, really.
00:35:08.160 –> 00:35:08.730
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re three
00:35:09.180 –> 00:35:13.890
Jeff Louella: Now you’re if three of being removed, I guess, somewhere around there and I do
00:35:14.400 –> 00:35:24.810
Jeff Louella: sometimes miss having that camaraderie in the office where you you can’t talk about some of the stuff that’s on your, you know, things that are on your team. I mean, I really feel after watching a lot of the tech SEO boost stuff.
00:35:25.350 –> 00:35:35.550
Jeff Louella: I’m like, wow, I think, I think I need to really step up my game because 80% of that was about Python and machine learning, which
00:35:35.970 –> 00:35:45.900
Jeff Louella: I do think has you know a place. It just seemed like a whole conference based on it kind of made me like think overnight. I’m all of a sudden going like, I’m so far behind. I think it’s just why
00:35:47.760 –> 00:35:49.170
Jeff Louella: I always felt like I was pretty
00:35:49.170 –> 00:35:56.280
Jeff Louella: Much always a little bit of a step ahead. But I think one. Now we have with there is such a great tech community.
00:35:56.730 –> 00:36:03.330
Jeff Louella: That it’s like, oh, I think the tech guys aren’t the ones that are out there like pounding your chest, saying, look at me, and think now we have
00:36:03.990 –> 00:36:13.590
Jeff Louella: More of that community. And you know what the tech SEO slack group that were in there and I’m just like, wow, there’s like a million tech SEOs i thought i was like a one of a kind.
00:36:17.490 –> 00:36:21.120
Jeff Louella: And now there’s just yeah like that whole conference. I was watching going okay
00:36:22.650 –> 00:36:25.410
Jamie Alberico: I mean jr was like, and I made my own internet
00:36:25.470 –> 00:36:25.980
Jeff Louella: Yeah.
00:36:26.310 –> 00:36:27.510
Jamie Alberico: The bar was raised.
00:36:28.200 –> 00:36:33.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, the best like I swear to God, if I wasn’t married. He’s in trouble because those brains.
00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:41.730
Jacob Stoops: Looking I’m smart and like, I’m like, people like Jr. I’m like damn it I blame you. It’s your fault for being so smart, and I’m so
00:36:43.260 –> 00:36:43.410
Jacob Stoops: And
00:36:43.920 –> 00:36:44.490
Jeff Louella: So,
00:36:44.790 –> 00:36:45.930
Jeff Louella: He’s got that Southern charm.
00:36:45.960 –> 00:36:48.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Tuesday. Oh yeah, well,
00:36:49.080 –> 00:36:50.640
Jamie Alberico: Cupid, though, and I think we need to I
00:36:50.640 –> 00:36:51.270
Jacob Stoops: Know, I know.
00:36:51.990 –> 00:36:52.590
Jacob Stoops: Matt.
00:36:52.650 –> 00:36:54.750
Jacob Stoops: Was being facetious. This
00:36:56.220 –> 00:36:56.490
Jamie Alberico: But
00:36:56.550 –> 00:37:02.340
Jamie Alberico: Something that I’ll share my story here about feeling stupid and Ashley really being there for me because it’s like
00:37:04.770 –> 00:37:17.700
Jamie Alberico: So we went to tech. Are you into Google IO together. My first I, oh, I think it was 2016 HF, we went to. And if you’ve ever been to IO, you can go to
00:37:18.450 –> 00:37:32.400
Jamie Alberico: This panel to panel to panel with the most amazing experts in their field who knows so much on are bringing so much to move the community forward on to celebrate. I spent the day
00:37:33.150 –> 00:37:40.770
Jamie Alberico: Together concert every year and I spent the concert in bathroom so 27 hyperventilating and having an absolute panic attack.
00:37:41.220 –> 00:37:48.810
Jamie Alberico: On why I was there on how I had taken a spot from someone who could event here and using this information actually done something with it.
00:37:49.770 –> 00:38:00.900
Jamie Alberico: It was it was a terrible, terrible sensation. But at the end of it. I learned to offer myself grace and in those moments where I am clearly the dumbest kid in the room.
00:38:01.410 –> 00:38:12.450
Jamie Alberico: And that’s okay because I’m still in the room, and I’m willing to ask those questions that seem so one on one. And I feel like I’m willing to
00:38:12.960 –> 00:38:20.940
Jamie Alberico: Learn from people who are a lot smarter than me so Ashley prides herself on and curating up selection of really, really beautiful and brilliant people
00:38:21.900 –> 00:38:37.290
Jamie Alberico: Being around her and I learned to get there myself learn that it’s okay to feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Like that’s officially now my happy place is an absence of gravity just picking a point in my horizons. Right.
00:38:38.250 –> 00:38:50.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I, I considered a special talent to be surrounded by people that are smarter than you and then instead of feeling self conscious. If you can find comfort there and excitement there, then you’re you are good. I’m going to do.
00:38:50.670 –> 00:38:52.200
Jamie Alberico: Like roller derby for the ego.
00:38:52.500 –> 00:39:01.050
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, yeah. I’m also the worst roller derby player, but if you can find comfort in getting your actual ass kicked. Then it’s for you.
00:39:02.280 –> 00:39:03.690
Jamie Alberico: Humble here again because you just
00:39:03.720 –> 00:39:05.340
Jamie Alberico: Want on fallible brawl.
00:39:06.990 –> 00:39:09.570
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, I wonder, be prom queen, you guys.
00:39:09.630 –> 00:39:11.070
Jeff Louella: I’m so nice.
00:39:11.400 –> 00:39:13.050
Jacob Stoops: How long have you been doing roller derby.
00:39:13.350 –> 00:39:28.980
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, two and a half years, something like that. Not very long. It’s the first sport. I’ve ever played and I am an overweight, you know, working person who sits down for the last 36 years of my 36 year life. So it was a trip and a challenge. But heck
00:39:30.090 –> 00:39:38.580
Jacob Stoops: What, like what puts you because roller derby is not something like people do very often. So like you’re sitting around two or three years ago, like
00:39:40.140 –> 00:39:43.920
Jacob Stoops: Maybe I think I’ll go do roller derby like how did that come about.
00:39:45.060 –> 00:39:54.900
Ashley Berman Hale: So, um, I have two very fabulous daughters and the oldest one was into real interview she had read a graphic novel called roller girl, which is a fantastic graphic novel.
00:39:55.500 –> 00:40:01.290
Ashley Berman Hale: And she was interested in doing it, but I didn’t know anything about it. And we found out that there was a local team for adults and juniors
00:40:02.910 –> 00:40:11.550
Ashley Berman Hale: And she wasn’t quite old enough, and so I told her that I would give it a shot and see how this whole roller derby thing worked and
00:40:12.300 –> 00:40:20.670
Ashley Berman Hale: I gave it a shot and definitely threw up like my first night there, but was like dude, this this gear is expensive. I have to do this three months. Otherwise, like
00:40:21.150 –> 00:40:26.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve made a financial mistake which makes me nervous. So I stuck on for three months and just kept going.
00:40:27.270 –> 00:40:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a, it’s a funny environment. I know it seems you know a bit abrasive. But I will tell you that I have found
00:40:33.720 –> 00:40:44.040
Ashley Berman Hale: More community with other women there than I have any other place in my life more acceptance more diverse women, they will absolutely murder you on the track, but they’re the first ones to pick you up off the floor.
00:40:44.970 –> 00:40:56.700
Ashley Berman Hale: Constant compliments and encouragement, so maybe I’m there for the ego. I’m not the best roller skater. But it just feels really good to be around genuine people that want to see you succeed, but also are not going to go easy on you.
00:40:57.150 –> 00:40:59.190
Jacob Stoops: And that are going to elbow you in the face.
00:40:59.850 –> 00:41:09.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Sometimes I mean that’s not fully legal, but hey, but you know they’re the first person is to drive you to the ER and bring you a muffin while you’re waiting for the x ray so
00:41:10.950 –> 00:41:24.180
Ashley Berman Hale: So it’s a really solid community. I would say that, you know, when we work on computers so much. I would encourage you to get a hobby that involves your hands or physically wearing yourself out that’s been really important for the balance of my mental health to
00:41:26.340 –> 00:41:30.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Anyway, joined realtor becomes skate with me to cover letter b.com alright, just kidding.
00:41:31.050 –> 00:41:31.650
Jacob Stoops: Farther
00:41:32.640 –> 00:41:38.550
Jacob Stoops: Now, forgive me for my roller derby knowledge are there men’s roller derby circuits.
00:41:38.610 –> 00:41:39.120
Ashley Berman Hale: There are
00:41:39.180 –> 00:41:40.710
Jacob Stoops: Indeed, wow.
00:41:40.770 –> 00:41:50.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, there are Myrna which is my favorite acronym is the one and it’s the men’s roller derby Association. There’s a great team in Denver, where Jamie is there, same all over the country.
00:41:51.210 –> 00:42:05.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Still pretty female dominated. It’s a for women by women volunteer run sport all nonprofits. So we have a pretty strongly, but in the men’s roller derby women are also welcome to join. So usually when I meant to be one or two women.
00:42:07.770 –> 00:42:09.660
Ashley Berman Hale: But yeah, get out there strap on your skates.
00:42:09.900 –> 00:42:12.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I had no one to help you come up with a penny Derby name.
00:42:12.720 –> 00:42:14.190
Ashley Berman Hale: I got you. Oh.
00:42:14.670 –> 00:42:19.740
Jeff Louella: No, I’m gonna be taking my daughter to we were she’s found a new love for roller skating.
00:42:20.250 –> 00:42:30.630
Jeff Louella: And I mean, she’s only nine now but she’s I told her I was gonna take it a roller derby and she’s super excited but then the the league that’s around here went on break. But it could THEY COME BACK THE END OF JANUARY so
00:42:31.560 –> 00:42:36.960
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re on break too but Jeff, you said ping me offline because my nine year old was the one who got me into it.
00:42:37.020 –> 00:42:40.650
Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. Well, hopefully it doesn’t get me into it into it but
00:42:43.020 –> 00:42:47.070
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s hard to roller skate and not smile so straps escapes on
00:42:47.430 –> 00:42:57.840
Jeff Louella: Agreed. Now, they were fun. We go out there. We every kid in my house has a sport and my one daughter. We finally found. She’s an artist. She’s the artist of the family, but we found her sport, which is roller skating so
00:42:58.020 –> 00:43:06.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Isn’t that crazy how it works. Um, so, Jacob and Jeff, if you’re okay with this. Since we talked earlier a little bit of imposter syndrome. I’m going to
00:43:07.230 –> 00:43:22.650
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m going to say off topic. Real quick, and want to put them on a last thought out there on that item is just that we’ve had a lot of suicides in our industry, the past few years, there’s been I think I know this. There’s been too many one is too many. But there’s been too many
00:43:23.700 –> 00:43:35.280
Ashley Berman Hale: So I just open invitation. If anyone out there is Phil and rough and wants to chat. I am wicked good at bad memes mom jokes inappropriate comments and drunk texting, so
00:43:36.960 –> 00:43:39.480
Ashley Berman Hale: Just reach out and talk to someone. Yeah, I would.
00:43:39.990 –> 00:43:43.380
Jacob Stoops: I would say the same. I would offer the same invitation. I’ve
00:43:44.460 –> 00:43:51.540
Jacob Stoops: I mean, not everybody has been able to have experience with people going through that I do have
00:43:51.990 –> 00:44:05.340
Jacob Stoops: Experienced not necessarily myself but somebody very close to me has been battling with that and having those types of thoughts. So I’m maybe a little more well suited than than, than the next person. So I would also offer
00:44:06.660 –> 00:44:09.840
Jacob Stoops: Community to anyone that needs to talk and
00:44:11.130 –> 00:44:17.100
Jacob Stoops: Please reach out reach out you’ve got you’ve got friends, you’ve got family. Don’t let it go too far.
00:44:18.420 –> 00:44:19.470
Jacob Stoops: Don’t let it go too far.
00:44:20.820 –> 00:44:22.440
Jacob Stoops: Okay, we just got
00:44:22.620 –> 00:44:27.150
Ashley Berman Hale: Really really taken like I am so sorry I’ve cried twice so
00:44:27.210 –> 00:44:27.900
Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be done.
00:44:28.380 –> 00:44:30.720
Jacob Stoops: Once I’ve almost tear it up. So, man.
00:44:31.080 –> 00:44:31.530
God, I’m gonna
00:44:33.270 –> 00:44:34.740
Jacob Stoops: Get me here. Um,
00:44:35.430 –> 00:44:42.690
Jamie Alberico: Well, I think it was monotone robot and I’ve been a beautiful because we are fallible soft, squishy people
00:44:43.380 –> 00:44:52.140
Jamie Alberico: And being real humans is what keeps us together in a world that’s based on ideas and one TV respond partners and
00:44:52.950 –> 00:44:54.900
Jacob Stoops: Those that were not a robot came from.
00:44:42.120 –> 00:45:50.160
Jamie Alberico: Not a Robot coming from Ashley Berman Hale. Yeah, her bio section of the website says, I’m not a robot and she was sharing this off to me.
00:45:51.270 –> 00:45:56.970
Jamie Alberico: Just fantastic getting tickets and make a new branch all together, have an interest in doing well, can I
00:45:58.050 –> 00:46:04.050
Jamie Alberico: Have to Google domains bought the domain fun drinking game. By the way, just go when you get drugged by random domains.
00:46:04.800 –> 00:46:17.160
Jamie Alberico: Robot may have been purchased in one of those moments, a couple of beers and it’s a it’s very effective way to help people understand, you know, I guess, to where I said, all those captures you fill out. I’m not a robot. But I thought
00:46:20.190 –> 00:46:21.420
Jeff Louella: I recently bought a domain.
00:46:22.440 –> 00:46:23.520
Jeff Louella: Lasers and bacon.
00:46:23.610 –> 00:46:25.800
Jeff Louella: Because I figured. What’s cooler than lasers and bacon.
00:46:26.340 –> 00:46:26.820
Jamie Alberico: That that
00:46:29.250 –> 00:46:30.690
Jacob Stoops: We can do with that site. Yeah.
00:46:31.830 –> 00:46:37.710
Jeff Louella: You know that goes right now it’s in the vault of 30 other web domains, I one day, one wants to start so
00:46:39.210 –> 00:46:43.830
Jacob Stoops: Wow, what are, what made you think that and how much you had a drink.
00:46:46.020 –> 00:46:52.710
Jeff Louella: You know, I was looking, I was looking up laser engraving machines. And I was like, you know, it makes lasers cooler bacon.
00:46:54.900 –> 00:46:56.970
Jacob Stoops: Bacon just makes everything cooler, I guess.
00:46:57.300 –> 00:46:59.310
Jamie Alberico: Why are you custom engraving, the bacon.
00:47:00.750 –> 00:47:01.620
Jeff Louella: Know,
00:47:01.680 –> 00:47:02.820
Jamie Alberico: If any wedding thing.
00:47:03.270 –> 00:47:04.020
Jamie Alberico: Could be.
00:47:04.800 –> 00:47:06.630
Ashley Berman Hale: Market market it do it now.
00:47:09.690 –> 00:47:10.560
Ashley Berman Hale: The only thing that
00:47:10.950 –> 00:47:16.230
Jacob Stoops: Does not make cooler what sounds cool is vodka, that that
00:47:16.260 –> 00:47:17.280
I’ve had baked out
00:47:18.870 –> 00:47:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Bad
00:47:20.640 –> 00:47:22.350
Jamie Alberico: flavor to it. That’s not okay.
00:47:23.730 –> 00:47:27.840
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been working a Bloody Mary, but that’s the only time she
00:47:27.840 –> 00:47:30.510
Jamie Alberico: Really apply practical application of that about God.
00:47:32.430 –> 00:47:32.970
Jacob Stoops: I’m
00:47:34.230 –> 00:47:36.300
Jacob Stoops: writing and speaking so
00:47:37.740 –> 00:47:47.490
Jacob Stoops: Jamie nationally. I feel like you guys both do a mix or a fair amount of both writing and public speaking.
00:47:48.600 –> 00:47:58.290
00:47:59.520 –> 00:48:08.910
Jacob Stoops: Video with Martin, um, how did that come about and and after that question. I’d love to get into the public speaking side of things, but I wanted to ask
00:48:08.940 –> 00:48:09.990
Ashley Berman Hale: You. I mean, is
00:48:11.550 –> 00:48:17.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I just would do. That is so cool that you are that person. I just know it tickles me. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up because it’s pretty bad.
00:48:18.240 –> 00:48:18.510
00:48:19.830 –> 00:48:25.680
00:48:26.700 –> 00:48:28.020
Jamie Alberico: That started
00:48:29.460 –> 00:48:36.540
Jamie Alberico: Doing migrations international talk to Brighton SEO. I think that was my second or third talk ever you want to count meetups as well.
00:48:38.160 –> 00:48:49.890
00:48:50.430 –> 00:49:01.230
Jamie Alberico: I’m terrible at time zones absolutely awful at it ended up being like three in the morning seven my leg TARDIS bath road my blue hairs all a frenzy on
00:49:01.920 –> 00:49:08.070
Jamie Alberico: The screen based up and they realized oh my face, my face was like 15 feet wide right now because that’s the Google office.
00:49:08.880 –> 00:49:16.350
Jamie Alberico: And I just happen to be lucky enough to me bar, and as he he had just joined the webmaster team, I believe, Brighton was one of his first talk
00:49:16.980 –> 00:49:23.070
Jamie Alberico: On and just had a really lovely time talking with the team and he will show up too bright in with our blue hair becomes
00:49:23.700 –> 00:49:33.780
00:49:34.380 –> 00:49:39.210
Jamie Alberico: Up to do this video me an amazing producer, your brother chance to meet and she’s on
00:49:40.110 –> 00:49:54.390
00:49:55.440 –> 00:49:59.940
Jamie Alberico: Getting our redesigned first place in 2014 we launched in 2015
00:50:04.620 –> 00:50:16.620
00:50:17.640 –> 00:50:20.970
Jacob Stoops: Still have a lot of trouble with crawling and I say,
00:50:21.000 –> 00:50:23.670
Jamie Alberico: 2014 when we got the project greenlight it took
00:50:24.360 –> 00:50:26.220
Jacob Stoops: He says to them, getting
00:50:26.280 –> 00:50:28.830
Jacob Stoops: Done SEO and 2014 so
00:50:29.160 –> 00:50:32.220
Jamie Alberico: No, no, we were rebuilding the site at that time and
00:50:32.580 –> 00:50:33.270
Jacob Stoops: Maybe a few weeks.
00:50:33.510 –> 00:50:38.610
Jamie Alberico: After Google announced they were deprecating the Ajax crawler the site went live
00:50:39.150 –> 00:50:39.510
00:50:40.560 –> 00:50:46.470
Jamie Alberico: I mean, we definitely did a plane SPACE MONKEY. Like, let’s see what happens. We actually called that project space party.
00:50:47.760 –> 00:50:59.970
Jacob Stoops: Nice. So, so with the with the public speaking, you guys. I feel like both do a fair amount of public speaking and or public moderating. What does that been like
00:51:02.580 –> 00:51:03.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Gary
00:51:06.930 –> 00:51:13.350
Ashley Berman Hale: So I man. I’m a bit of a reluctance speaker, and I’m very not polished, but I really like doing it.
00:51:14.100 –> 00:51:21.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, so, hashtag. If you’re, if you don’t have production level value conferences and you want to hang out and talk about cool things I’m game.
00:51:21.900 –> 00:51:30.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, but I use it as a way to personally push myself to go deeper into topics as well as just to make friends. So I’ve been working from home for 10 years
00:51:32.190 –> 00:51:35.520
Ashley Berman Hale: So I need to get out of the house, a couple times a year. So
00:51:35.520 –> 00:51:36.180
Jeff Louella: That was
00:51:36.300 –> 00:51:47.100
Ashley Berman Hale: So is pretty important. And then it’s just it’s a bit of a self challenge. So I had, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. As a kid, and took five years of speech therapy so
00:51:47.820 –> 00:51:53.340
Ashley Berman Hale: As a big fuck you to my jeans I decided to do more public speaking as a high school or an adult. So
00:51:53.820 –> 00:51:59.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Part of that is just a little personal renegade but it’s fun. I would love to say that more conferences, though.
00:52:00.330 –> 00:52:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: Bring more people to present collaboratively like I love presenting with Jamie and with other people that I know.
00:52:06.450 –> 00:52:09.840
Ashley Berman Hale: It helps to get you more bang for your buck again that peer review and peer editing.
00:52:10.800 –> 00:52:19.680
Ashley Berman Hale: And moderating is also fantastic instead of having the same conference organizers. If you’re welcome have other people in the field. There’s just so many cool opportunities there so
00:52:20.160 –> 00:52:26.730
Ashley Berman Hale: Like I said, I’m not a natural speaker, I definitely get nervous. I am known to throw up either before or after or both.
00:52:26.790 –> 00:52:27.060
00:52:28.650 –> 00:52:39.630
Ashley Berman Hale: You just but I still enjoy doing it and really appreciate it opportunities, but it’s it’s wild. It’s weird right i mean i go straight social blackout when I’m up there. Well,
00:52:39.870 –> 00:52:43.500
Jeff Louella: Actually, you also started the rally SEO Meetup group right
00:52:43.560 –> 00:52:45.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh, you bring it back, Jeff.
00:52:46.470 –> 00:52:48.180
Jeff Louella: Well, I mean, to go from not being
00:52:48.210 –> 00:52:55.260
Jeff Louella: Liking to speak to starting, you know, the largest Meetup group about SEO. That’s kind of like
00:52:55.530 –> 00:52:57.510
Jeff Louella: I’m jealous that I don’t live in Raleigh, sometimes
00:52:58.920 –> 00:53:03.300
Jeff Louella: I make it up there a couple times, you know, during the conferences and things like that. But at the same time.
00:53:04.080 –> 00:53:13.920
Jeff Louella: The community here, there seems really awesome. And it seems like anyone. It’s like a lot of helping each other grow and and it seems like an awesome community that’s
00:53:14.520 –> 00:53:23.580
Jeff Louella: You know, where we have people like Jr and Patrick and and you know every time I go or see anyone there. I’m like, wow, you all live in Raleigh, like how Raleigh become
00:53:24.150 –> 00:53:33.870
Ashley Berman Hale: Thing. Okay, so I will tell you that is one of my proudest moments. Um, I guess I’m like a little bit of a mama by heart, even though I’m not, I should not be left alone to raise any children but
00:53:34.860 –> 00:53:45.030
Ashley Berman Hale: It was when I was so I had moved to North Carolina after my father and my brother had died and decided on a fresh start moved to a place I never knew and
00:53:46.500 –> 00:53:53.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just convince my boss to let me use his office space to maybe try to get a few people together off hours to talk about this stuff.
00:53:54.030 –> 00:54:10.500
Ashley Berman Hale: And luckily for me. I was like, do you want to own it. And he said, No, go ahead, which was pretty awesome. But the first local. So here the first rally SEO meetup was definitely in the single digits. And I made homemade pies to try and bribe people to show up, um,
00:54:11.790 –> 00:54:18.090
Ashley Berman Hale: So it started out very, very small. But it was a really, really cool way to develop speaking skills for me.
00:54:18.390 –> 00:54:24.780
Ashley Berman Hale: But also to try to influence the market, a little bit like I told you I took a big long break from SEO because it was a little sticky so back then. I was
00:54:25.290 –> 00:54:35.130
Ashley Berman Hale: On a little bit more of a rampage of kindness. So I made it free and I made sure that they were different types for all levels that they were takeaways and actionable insights and that
00:54:35.670 –> 00:54:42.540
Ashley Berman Hale: All I was trying to do was enable local businesses to either do the work themselves or to know enough to be able to hire without liability.
00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:57.690
Ashley Berman Hale: And that sucker grew. I mean we out group at times. I was just begging businesses like hey, if I can get everyone to buy a beer. Can I, you know, hang out in this corner of your bar for an hour tonight and also if no one’s going to buy beer. I’ll just buy them all. It’s fine.
00:54:58.860 –> 00:55:07.650
Ashley Berman Hale: But it it grew and grew quickly and I can be a little anti social by nature. And so I had a partner after the first year to come and fill Buckley
00:55:08.430 –> 00:55:16.230
Ashley Berman Hale: Who is part of that like Patrick jr group. I think he’s a little header IBM. He’s fantastic but he is a social butterfly so
00:55:16.680 –> 00:55:23.670
Ashley Berman Hale: It was another situation where it couldn’t have been the way it did without partnering with somebody. So sharing is caring and what a cool way to start off
00:55:24.090 –> 00:55:28.740
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, my professional SEO career and kind of restarted after feeling like the industry was a little sad.
00:55:29.340 –> 00:55:39.570
Ashley Berman Hale: But I you know I left it in good hands and they’ve continued to do awesome things and I actually got to go back last year to speak for the 10 year anniversary how how rad, is that it’s like my babies in the double digits.
00:55:40.230 –> 00:55:45.270
Jamie Alberico: It’s awesome rampage of kindness is the most on brand thing I’ve ever heard.
00:55:46.740 –> 00:55:55.110
Ashley Berman Hale: That, that’s good. That’s all right, I got a t shirt rampage of kindness that goes along with them. The relentlessly casual label, I, I also appreciate
00:55:55.410 –> 00:56:07.650
Jacob Stoops: There’s an old at iOS or videos at video game believe called rampage. You should just steal that logo and close rampage of kindness and there you go. You got your own t shirt brand.
00:56:07.890 –> 00:56:10.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Cool, Jacob. Now I’m not going to get any work done today. I blame you.
00:56:10.950 –> 00:56:14.160
Jamie Alberico: Go discounted work branding and work.
00:56:18.900 –> 00:56:25.800
Jacob Stoops: Oh man, I’m so deep crawl, I’d be remiss to not talk about deep crawl. What’s it. What’s it like working the depot.
00:56:26.220 –> 00:56:37.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Ship date is the best I’m you know I’m optimistic but not naive. So, but I left a couple jobs, one that was a really toxic environment, one that was
00:56:38.550 –> 00:56:45.270
Ashley Berman Hale: Great, but just not the best fit. And I was feeling really low on my capabilities to feel like a productive you know employable human being.
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:53.580
Ashley Berman Hale: And deep called crowd grabbed me and I will tell you I have had so much joy working here with the people that I work with the software.
00:56:54.330 –> 00:57:00.540
Ashley Berman Hale: And just the flexibility to learn so deep crawls uh you know it’s a software. It’s a crawler enterprise level. So it’s like
00:57:01.080 –> 00:57:15.330
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a lot like Screaming Frog who are amazing people that make a great product, but it’s sort of on steroids, so you’re able to grab historic data crawl in the cloud trend everything. And there’s just a ton of ways to define the data and filter right within the tool.
00:57:15.750 –> 00:57:17.400
Jacob Stoops: It also does it on your computer.
00:57:18.570 –> 00:57:25.410
Ashley Berman Hale: It doesn’t shut down your computer because it’s like, you know, your fan won’t even get hot. So that’s, you know, big selling point
00:57:26.070 –> 00:57:32.250
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s just a fun tool it’s it’s really interesting. I’ve really enjoyed working here, I would say if anyone hasn’t tried it.
00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:39.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Just ping me I would be happy to run across from you and you can poke around obviously not a salesperson because I’m really into giving it away for free but
00:57:40.710 –> 00:57:48.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I mean there’s cool data. So if you ever want me to run a sample crawl kick it over. I’m happy to do so you can, yeah, if anyone wants to bug me on Twitter. That’s probably the best place.
00:57:49.230 –> 00:57:57.600
Jeff Louella: In the cross seems to have been, you know, I guess the one of the first like SAS platforms to start hiring SEOs, you know, and I see now.
00:57:58.050 –> 00:58:01.050
Jeff Louella: You know, now you’re going to be competing against Patrick because he went over to
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:12.480
Jeff Louella: H refs. But in general, they’re like, it seems deep crawl like this, the knowledge base has really grown, which is which is great. Like the articles or webinars or something. I look forward to every time they get launched
00:58:12.570 –> 00:58:17.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh my gosh, what a smart team, right. So first of all, I could meet Patrick and an arm wrestle so
00:58:17.700 –> 00:58:19.320
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m not right, but
00:58:20.520 –> 00:58:26.790
Ashley Berman Hale: But I might team is really great. The marketing team does a lot of crazy cool stuff so mean, everyone knows like Sam and Rachel and Jen and
00:58:27.240 –> 00:58:34.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Those are people who aren’t traditional SEOs and they’re smarter than most people I know, like they are awesome. My team we’re professional services team.
00:58:35.250 –> 00:58:43.440
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s six or seven of us, depending on the day but also hiring. So if you’re a crazy fabulous curious tech SEO and you want to work with me, which
00:58:43.950 –> 00:58:54.060
Ashley Berman Hale: Godspeed but ping me there too. So the company’s doing well. They just went through Series B funding and I’m just excited to work with more fantastic people, but they’ve really done something special.
00:58:54.510 –> 00:59:04.530
Ashley Berman Hale: In terms of priority to prioritizing data and good things for clients as well as making a really, really fantastic team and hiring obviously humble people right so that’s great.
00:59:06.240 –> 00:59:12.600
Jamie Alberico: So you guys always have a sandwich for me and you guys always have the Chargers that I forgot plane somewhere.
00:59:13.740 –> 00:59:14.280
Jamie Alberico: On a T.
00:59:14.700 –> 00:59:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: Shirt and Casey spell something like you have like the most. I don’t know. Hearing a material company like we will take care of anyone. So again, if you’re ever curious whether it’s job right here on my site for free, like just paying us for a helpful group.
00:59:28.830 –> 00:59:29.760
Jamie Alberico: Very good human
00:59:30.300 –> 00:59:32.670
Ashley Berman Hale: With sandwiches with sandwiches.
00:59:34.200 –> 00:59:39.390
Jacob Stoops: Oh so want to make sure we’re respectful of time I
00:59:40.440 –> 00:59:52.740
Jacob Stoops: Don’t think we’re gonna have time for news. I think we’re, we’re probably not going to, because we’ve had such wonderful conversation that is flowing. So naturally I don’t think we’re going to deep dive into technical SEO. I think we’ve talked
00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:59.580
Jacob Stoops: Quite enough. I did want to talk about a few more few more things before we wrap up the episode.
01:00:00.240 –> 01:00:13.140
Jacob Stoops: But because you guys have been so awesome to talk to. It’s been one of our most free flowing conversation. So I definitely, definitely. Thank you guys for that. It’s been really good, really good conversation.
01:00:14.640 –> 01:00:27.540
Jacob Stoops: Um, you guys have mentioned several times and I agree. I’ve noticed it. I, I sometimes choose not to take part, because I have a lot of my own thoughts, but you’ve mentioned the
01:00:29.100 –> 01:00:43.830
Jacob Stoops: The level of discourse in the in the industry over probably the last five to five to 10 years and I don’t know. I think I’ve noticed it as well, getting getting better, but it had gotten
01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:54.360
Jacob Stoops: A lot of it’s centered around conferences and whatnot, but it had gotten pretty toxic and pretty nasty there for for a little while. So I was wondering if y’all could
01:00:55.290 –> 01:01:07.020
Jacob Stoops: Talk a little bit about that and why you think it’s maybe gotten a little bit better. Over the course of the last, I don’t know, I feel like maybe the last year, maybe, maybe I’m overshooting that I don’t know but
01:01:07.470 –> 01:01:14.370
Jacob Stoops: I felt it also being really bad and then getting a little bit better. But I don’t know if you guys could talk about that a little bit.
01:01:17.670 –> 01:01:27.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I’m awesome well know, Jamie. You go first because I, yeah, I got to the end of something and I pretend like I’ve been drinking a whole time and I will just eat up all the time here.
01:01:28.320 –> 01:01:29.640
Jamie Alberico: But I love listening to your story.
01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.320
Jamie Alberico: very articulate and
01:01:31.410 –> 01:01:47.220
Jamie Alberico: You know you’ve always been a great mentor for me and this kind of scenario. I honestly can say I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only really been met with kindness from people at these conferences and support. I like to think perhaps that
01:01:48.240 –> 01:01:54.990
Jamie Alberico: I try and bring up there as well. But there’s no critic of really going to be as harsh as my internal one
01:01:55.440 –> 01:02:08.850
Jamie Alberico: So I think keeping her quiet on focused on when I’m there to do maybe take it away from me and giving attention to some of these more interesting moments that I hear about after the fact.
01:02:10.290 –> 01:02:14.580
Jamie Alberico: I haven’t been the first chance I can speak to a new the kerfuffle
01:02:16.620 –> 01:02:25.890
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, and I mean events bring their own level of potential toxicity, the industry and of itself has been a little tough to. So I’ve been in it for about 15 ish years maybe a little more
01:02:26.790 –> 01:02:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, and I did a lot of volunteer work and forums, that’s how I got that’s how I got started in a lot of it and forums can be a really awful, awful place to be, especially if you’re an idiot and just use your regular name Ashley’s everyone knows you’re a girl.
01:02:41.370 –> 01:02:42.600
Jamie Alberico: Was true man.
01:02:43.230 –> 01:02:45.360
Jamie Alberico: I’m not ever gave me with an androgynous name.
01:02:45.480 –> 01:02:51.300
Ashley Berman Hale: I know that so nice. Um, but it is, it’s been bad, but I think in a lot of the ways it’s getting better.
01:02:51.810 –> 01:02:57.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I just want to call out that, you know, I come from a place of privilege, even though it can be tough to be in tech as a woman.
01:02:58.380 –> 01:03:06.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I am already five steps ahead of some other folks, especially people of color LGBT Q that are out like there’s there’s a stiffness there and
01:03:07.470 –> 01:03:14.850
Ashley Berman Hale: I would really like it to be more fluid where people can come in and present and there’s a focus on ideas. I think we are getting there. I think we have warmed the ground so much
01:03:15.450 –> 01:03:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: And I think that I can be a bit spicy unintentionally and very clumsy with my calls to try and make things a little bit more better and inclusive.
01:03:23.820 –> 01:03:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: But for the most part people have been very generous and forgiving in terms of how I approach that and it spawns some really good conversations so
01:03:34.020 –> 01:03:40.140
Ashley Berman Hale: I think we’re getting better and a lot of ways, and I hope to keep saying encouragement in that way. I will see say that
01:03:41.100 –> 01:03:48.900
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s one conference in particular that is really great for me in terms of seeing that as the NGA Atlanta conference to Angular Atlanta conference where
01:03:49.560 –> 01:03:57.930
Ashley Berman Hale: The founder there works hard to make all majority women or people of color and especially women of color speakers without repeating speakers. It’s pretty fantastic.
01:03:59.010 –> 01:04:07.350
Ashley Berman Hale: And it takes a lot of work, like the organizer Zach will be there to tell you, it takes a lot of work to advise any other events, but he’ll tell you that the work is worth it. So,
01:04:08.070 –> 01:04:14.910
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re getting better. I’d like to push a little harder in that area. So leave with kindness, but also psychological safety for everyone to
01:04:16.620 –> 01:04:27.870
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I agree. And having been so I’ll just, I’ll just come right out with it. I am I dislike conferences and it’s partly because I’m anti social
01:04:28.770 –> 01:04:40.290
Jacob Stoops: A little bit. Although I can be social. But I you know I get uncomfortable and nervous in large groups of people. And so that makes a conference for me not very cool.
01:04:43.260 –> 01:04:47.100
Jacob Stoops: I’m like, I’m just really bad at small talk, and like literally
01:04:47.700 –> 01:05:03.390
Jacob Stoops: It makes me sweat just thinking of having to small talk. Not that I don’t like. I like people just fine. But like in large settings. I always feel super, super awkward, which means just by definition conferences are just not my thing.
01:05:04.650 –> 01:05:17.340
Jacob Stoops: But then there’s also, you know, what types of things go on at conferences with respect to harassment and the way people act towards each other and the, the lack of kindness.
01:05:18.510 –> 01:05:23.700
Jacob Stoops: I’ve run. And I don’t know if you have you guys ever heard the term conference circuit SEO.
01:05:24.840 –> 01:05:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Is that a new thing.
01:05:25.680 –> 01:05:32.940
Jamie Alberico: Yes, I turned out on leave, and I understand you correctly or first do the kind of repeating
01:05:33.360 –> 01:05:33.600
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.
01:05:33.960 –> 01:05:37.980
Jamie Alberico: There’s a couple of key speakers, they tend to get things paid for, you’ve got other people
01:05:38.640 –> 01:05:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Yes.
01:05:39.450 –> 01:05:50.250
Jamie Alberico: Please go to our last represented in our community. And it’s very real that a lot of venues are going to charge money, a lot of money for these tickets and and don’t even pay for the speakers.
01:05:51.630 –> 01:05:52.500
Jacob Stoops: Right, right.
01:05:52.920 –> 01:05:53.820
Jamie Alberico: Very prohibitive.
01:05:54.360 –> 01:05:55.530
Jacob Stoops: There are
01:05:56.730 –> 01:06:08.670
Jacob Stoops: In I’m definitely not trying to lump. Anybody, anybody into this but this story for me is very, very specific to some people that I’ve worked with who
01:06:09.420 –> 01:06:17.430
Jacob Stoops: Were what I call a quote unquote on the conference circuit which means they went to and spoke at a lot of conferences and were looked up to by
01:06:17.850 –> 01:06:28.080
Jacob Stoops: A lot of people as subject matter experts. But then when it came time for them to actually work with me together on certain accounts.
01:06:28.800 –> 01:06:38.310
Jacob Stoops: I found that they fell very, very flat in terms of my expectation of their level of quality and what I actually got from them.
01:06:39.060 –> 01:06:51.840
Jacob Stoops: So that has left me with a little bit of a bad taste in my, in my mouth with respect to what I’ll call certain conference circuit SEO. So just in general conferences are
01:06:52.860 –> 01:07:00.000
Jacob Stoops: Not my favorite thing. But what I have enjoyed seeing recently is the increased focus on
01:07:01.260 –> 01:07:11.940
Jacob Stoops: One acting better treating people better and hopefully fewer instances of harassment. I know women, definitely go through
01:07:12.600 –> 01:07:21.780
Jacob Stoops: A lot and I feel like I’ve never been like Jamie, just like you said, it’s always for me been second hand. I feel like every man definitely knows
01:07:22.110 –> 01:07:27.300
Jacob Stoops: Of a woman who has experienced some sort of sexual harassment. But for me, I’ve never
01:07:27.780 –> 01:07:33.780
Jacob Stoops: It’s never been something I’ve witnessed or anything like that. So I’m always only hearing about it secondhand and I’m less than
01:07:34.470 –> 01:07:50.220
Jacob Stoops: Less than aware of when that that type of thing might be happening. If I were aware. I would definitely definitely speak up. So I’m I feel like sometimes in a bit of an awkward position of wanting to speak up and being supportive but ever being like Johnny on the spot for when an event.
01:07:51.300 –> 01:07:55.350
Jacob Stoops: Happens or transpires so little bit of an awkward awkward.
01:07:56.490 –> 01:08:07.890
Jacob Stoops: Position and I would say so obviously that needs to get better. I don’t know how much that is still going on. But I know it was pretty pervasive in the past and super unfortunate.
01:08:08.430 –> 01:08:18.240
Jacob Stoops: The other thing that I’m really enjoying is the emphasis on speaker balance. I, I, I have a hard time when I see
01:08:19.710 –> 01:08:26.730
Jacob Stoops: An SEO team at a company that is entirely and I’ve experienced this a lot in the past entirely male dominated
01:08:27.540 –> 01:08:31.710
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, they’re celebrating hiring the first female CEO and a team in 2019
01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:34.080
Jamie Alberico: I mean that’s an incredibly sad.
01:08:34.440 –> 01:08:39.810
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s it’s really sad. And I have a hard time with conferences where I look at the
01:08:40.200 –> 01:08:49.350
Jacob Stoops: The speaker lineup and I don’t see a picture of somebody with color. I don’t see a picture of somebody who’s female or you see it, but there’s not nearly enough balance so
01:08:50.070 –> 01:08:58.680
Jacob Stoops: Not something that I think is, is a good thing. And something that I think is trending in the right direction. I don’t think it’s entirely there.
01:08:59.220 –> 01:09:10.920
Jacob Stoops: But I would like to see more more conferences and more companies strive for that balance and not balance for the sake of balance but balance because you really believe
01:09:11.760 –> 01:09:19.470
Jacob Stoops: That that those those people and I’m definitely one of the privileged people really bring value in a different perspective.
01:09:19.920 –> 01:09:27.480
Jacob Stoops: Not just hiring or booking because you need a certain ratio, right. So that’s something that I’m hoping
01:09:28.110 –> 01:09:37.260
Jacob Stoops: Gets a little bit better. But again, as I’ve said before, because I’m kind of an outside observer. I don’t choose to go to a lot of conferences.
01:09:37.950 –> 01:09:48.600
Jacob Stoops: I’m more kind of I feel like routing from the sidelines and trying to push where where I can in my areas of influence which are which are a few outside of my own house so
01:09:50.340 –> 01:10:06.330
Jamie Alberico: I ok here is because that one for me first one I totally understanding the lack of comfort being around that many people I’ve been asked how I seem to to come on stage and my secret ready guys years of practice with a panic disorder.
01:10:06.780 –> 01:10:09.210
Jamie Alberico: Like I have learned how to have a heart attack feel like
01:10:09.210 –> 01:10:18.750
Jamie Alberico: Even the Rolodex prices on keep a calm state so repurpose if you if you’ve been through that you think of it as reclaiming and repurposing all those years of practice.
01:10:19.770 –> 01:10:25.410
Jamie Alberico: And secondly, there are now more groups out here who are advocating to get their women together a presentation together.
01:10:25.710 –> 01:10:33.690
Jamie Alberico: If you are a winless there are used one support women in tech SEO, there is a women in tech SEO Slack channel you can find them on Twitter and on Facebook.
01:10:34.020 –> 01:10:44.190
Jamie Alberico: Joining that conversation. I know some really great conferences coming up that have reached out to them to try and help balance out our speakers find people who are representing very skilled
01:10:45.330 –> 01:10:48.630
Jamie Alberico: Technologies to be on stage and present from their perspective.
01:10:49.800 –> 01:10:53.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah. And if you’re a sweet guy like maybe instead of accepting the panel.
01:10:54.420 –> 01:11:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Or accepting the speaking gig. Why don’t you recommend somebody else make it easier on the event organizers because they always say they can’t. But I guarantee there’s someone around you.
01:11:03.870 –> 01:11:08.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Who may be a first time or second time speaker, but has really incredible things to say.
01:11:08.670 –> 01:11:14.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I think if you speak too much often you’re missing out on that constant learning that you need in order to stay on top of the industry.
01:11:15.330 –> 01:11:19.290
Ashley Berman Hale: Or if you’re never speaking, then you’re missing out on an opportunity to find in your craft so
01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:29.610
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s great that some people will have reached that pinnacle, and they are trusted and loved and everyone likes to see them speak but it means nothing. If you don’t turn around and homework, you know, two more people up.
01:11:29.640 –> 01:11:31.110
Jeff Louella: So I would say share the spotlight.
01:11:31.590 –> 01:11:43.800
Ashley Berman Hale: And I don’t have a huge network or you know much influence but if anyone out there who hasn’t spoken before wants to speak. If I could put you in contact with anyone or any conference. Like, I’m happy to help.
01:11:44.850 –> 01:11:49.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Said, I don’t have a ton of influence, but I’m willing to use it to just get more voices up there. We should all do that.
01:11:51.150 –> 01:11:59.730
Jeff Louella: Yeah, it’s funny. I’ve been working on a little side project where I’ve downloaded the titles of every SEO speech.
01:12:00.840 –> 01:12:11.280
Jeff Louella: By the last like two years. And my goal was, I was going to try to make like a SEO speech generator that just put out a topic because that’s one of the things when I
01:12:12.120 –> 01:12:25.440
Jeff Louella: Think about doing any type of speaking. I’m like, what am I going to talk about that no one else is talking about. So I was like, hey, and I can want to play with AI and machine learning. I was like, maybe I can make a generator just generates topics. And here’s your next speech.
01:12:26.970 –> 01:12:28.020
Jamie Alberico: I would love to see this.
01:12:28.230 –> 01:12:42.330
Jeff Louella: Play. Yeah, it was kind of gonna be tongue in cheek, because I just wanted to like I wanted to be bad AI to so it made it funny but so that is in the works. It’s. But one thing I noticed was when I would Dee doop. There were a lot
01:12:43.350 –> 01:12:48.930
Jeff Louella: So that was one of the things that were there was a lot of that was like duplicate on air and it made me really think like
01:12:50.100 –> 01:12:56.220
Jeff Louella: You know, going and a lot of it might have been like the digital summits, where people travel and do the same presentation all across the country.
01:12:56.940 –> 01:13:03.090
Jeff Louella: But there were a lot of like the same things we were talking about and that’s one thing with the tech SEO boost conference.
01:13:03.450 –> 01:13:13.530
Jeff Louella: It was like something totally different copy way off guard. Because even last year, maybe a Catalan or one person talked about AI or machine learning and Python and this year was 80% of the people.
01:13:14.130 –> 01:13:24.450
Jeff Louella: Which which was was pretty interesting. But in general, I love the, you know, I want to go out and talk a little bit more, but I really love to do it more in the local level and trying to
01:13:25.080 –> 01:13:30.840
Jeff Louella: There’s not a huge SEO community here in Atlanta. So something I’d like to start to put together and build out
01:13:33.660 –> 01:13:47.100
Jeff Louella: But what I’m just kind of like to end the show just kind of asking a certain question and just kind of advice like if you were someone who was starting off in the SEO world right now. What kind of advice would you give someone who is starting out.
01:13:52.440 –> 01:14:03.840
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m yeah I’m used to always jumping in first here so I’m cognizant of that. I’m sorry. I would just say stay curious and stay kind, um, that’s it.
01:14:04.770 –> 01:14:06.720
Jeff Louella: That that’s just a range of kindness.
01:14:07.500 –> 01:14:08.340
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.
01:14:08.370 –> 01:14:10.110
Jamie Alberico: Well, I am page the kindness.
01:14:10.560 –> 01:14:18.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, a rampage of kindness, please. And I have this, uh, this is kind of gross, but I’ve been a professional coaching and stuff like that, where they say hey,
01:14:19.230 –> 01:14:27.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Create a tagline for yourself. And that sounds a little silly, but I have one. And I’ve been using it for over a decade and it’s it’s really done me well and
01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:42.000
Ashley Berman Hale: My personal tagline is stupid work. So that means a lot of different things to me. But part of that is just staying curious and you know being nice to people and figuring out where you can help rather than stand on the shoulders of others. So whatever you do, do good work.
01:14:42.780 –> 01:14:43.860
Jeff Louella: Awesome. What do you think, Jamie.
01:14:46.950 –> 01:14:57.480
Jamie Alberico: I would say that there are no dumb questions engineering a room where you only understand and 20 week of what’s going on. That’s okay. I’ll take notes.
01:14:58.350 –> 01:15:06.690
Jamie Alberico: Ask for the handle. What do you mean by this word, particularly in technology. I have some English. I’m looking in bed with dev teams like stocks.
01:15:07.500 –> 01:15:18.060
Jamie Alberico: And people use different words, getting the same thing on half of our value of SEO is being able to map up those synonyms and translate between these teams.
01:15:18.420 –> 01:15:24.420
Jamie Alberico: Isn’t the end. We all want to make good things. We all have this desire to those good things to be found and
01:15:24.840 –> 01:15:39.450
Jamie Alberico: This is how we get there is by being willing to be humble and say, I don’t understand what that means. Could you explain it. Just keep learning. Even when it hurts your head and you crying about the install
01:15:41.850 –> 01:15:48.480
Ashley Berman Hale: So many times I’ve like cried, and I’m like, I don’t understand. And then an hour later I’ll be like, holy shit, I figured it out like
01:15:48.840 –> 01:15:55.590
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, it’s a crime, and it certainly feels worth it. Like you’re just hitting the wall heading the law hitting a woman suddenly and make sense and it’s beautiful.
01:15:56.190 –> 01:15:57.150
Jamie Alberico: Yes, and have a
01:15:57.270 –> 01:15:57.810
01:15:58.890 –> 01:16:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I think tech SEOs walk that line between the
01:16:02.820 –> 01:16:03.960
Jamie Alberico: Federal ambition.
01:16:08.970 –> 01:16:14.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, oh yeah, she is sorry last thought. Don’t be afraid to ask them questions. All right. I promise I’m done talking. Yeah.
01:16:17.430 –> 01:16:34.710
Jeff Louella: Awesome. Well, we’d love to thank you for coming on the show me, I think, is such great conversation that we had, I feel that you two together. It was it was a great idea. And we’re trying to put you separately, but I think together me. It was just awesome and made the conversation flow better
01:16:35.010 –> 01:16:35.970
Jacob Stoops: Dynamic Duo
01:16:36.600 –> 01:16:37.320
01:16:38.850 –> 01:16:39.270
Jacob Stoops: Alright.
01:16:39.750 –> 01:16:40.230
Jeff Louella: So my
01:16:40.560 –> 01:16:41.250
Jamie Alberico: Life, mate.
01:16:41.670 –> 01:16:45.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, I love you very much. Jamie, it’s good to have a way
01:16:45.360 –> 01:16:45.990
Jamie Alberico: Of you to bed.
01:16:47.760 –> 01:16:48.750
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye guys
01:16:50.400 –> 01:16:50.970
Thank you.Post Views: 1,020
By Jacob Stoops — 4 months ago
- How he went from college soccer star to Fiverr hustler to SEO
- The founding of his business
- His advice on how SEOs can begin to speak executive-level language
- What it’s like to scale and run an agency and the pressure of being responsible for so many people
- How he works to empower those within his organization
- What it’s like to have to deliver bad news to an employee
And so much more.
Finally, we have a deep dive into why discoverability (not traffic, keywords, and links) needs to be put on an SEO pedestal.Post Views: 498