Jacob Stoops

#40: Garrett Mehrguth

Episode Summary


In this episode, we chat with Garrett Mehrguth, Founder and CEO of Directive, a search marketing agency for mid-market and enterprise brands.

We discuss:

  • How he went from college soccer star to Fiverr hustler to SEO
  • The founding of his business
  • His advice on how SEOs can begin to speak executive-level language
  • What it’s like to scale and run an agency and the pressure of being responsible for so many people
  • How he works to empower those within his organization
  • What it’s like to have to deliver bad news to an employee

And so much more.


In the news we talk about:

Deep Dive

Finally, we have a deep dive into why discoverability (not traffic, keywords, and links) needs to be put on an SEO pedestal.

#39: Carolyn Lyden

Episode Summary

In this episode, we chat with Carolyn Lyden, President and Lead SEO at Search Hermit.

Topics covered

Articles referenced

#38: Andrew Cock-Starkey

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Andrew Cock-Starkey (better know as “Optimisey”). Andrew runs an SEO consultancy out of Cambridge, England working with clients all over the globe. He also runs one of the most popular SEO meet-ups in the UK.

Andrew's background

We talk about:

  • How Andrew’s career began 20 years ago as a broadcast journalist working at the BBC with a focus on cricket and fut ball
  • How the emphasis placed on creating fresh and timely content around the sports stories of the day really opened his eyes to the power of building traffic online
  • His time as Web Editor as Newsworks
  • His management of the website for the Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC)
  • How it all led him to found his own SEO consultancy Optimisey
  • What it’s like running the Optimisey SEO meeting
  • His Optimisey YouTube video series
  • And more.

SEO news

This episode's deep dive

And last but not least, we dive into a few overlooked SEO fundamentals including:

  • How often simple analytics configurations seem to be overlooked
  •  The use of site monitoring tools and how they can help businesses

#37: Martha van Berkel

Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we talk with Martha van Berkel, CEO and Co-Founder of SchemaApp, a service that empowers the Digital Marketer to own their schema markup strategy through to implementation without ever writing code or engaging with IT.

We talk about her background in mathematics and engineering (she also attended the MIT Sloan school of management). We also discuss how she spent almost 14 years at Cisco, what it’s like to be an innovator at an otherwise slow-moving, highly-bureaucratic company, and the circumstances that led to her going out on her own and eventually forming her own company with her husband.

In the news, we talk about Google’s recent broad core algorithm update and share our thoughts on how the industry reacts to algo updates as well as our own approaches.

And finally, we deep dive into structured data, how brands can use it, as well as what challenges SEOs face with schema and getting it implemented.

Also, follow Schema App on Twitter.

#36: Ian Howells

Episode Summary

We talk with Ian Howells, long-time SEO and one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank, which is one of the best private SEO communities in the world.

We discuss:

  • How he began building websites in high school as part of a class project
  • How his early experience led him to building affiliate websites and making money online at a very young age
  • We discuss his foray into marketing and optimization in the adult and online poker industries
  • How a federal law forced him to change his career arc, which eventually led on to various agency and in-house roles
  • The founding of Traffic Think Tank
  • What it’s like to run one of the most well-known and reputable private SEO communities
  • Coordinating the Traffic Think Tank Live conference
  • The news that Bing says 2020 will be the year where keyword research becomes obsolete (while Google says it isn’t)
  • The rise of DuckDuckGo
  • Deep dive into Affiliate Sites

And much more.

Episode Transcript


00:00:02.730 –> 00:00:15.299
Jacob Stoops: All right, everybody. Welcome to the Page 2 Podcast I am your host Jacob stoops and I am here with Mr. Jeff, Louella Jeff. How’s it going?

00:00:15.750 –> 00:00:17.340
Jeff Louella: Going well how’s everyone doing out there.

00:00:18.630 –> 00:00:19.650
Jacob Stoops: They can’t answer you, Jeff.

00:00:19.740 –> 00:00:21.480
Jeff Louella: Ah, I was trying this time.

00:00:23.010 –> 00:00:23.190
Jacob Stoops: No.

00:00:23.700 –> 00:00:25.260
Jeff Louella: Not respond on Twitter. How you doing,

00:00:25.290 –> 00:00:32.970
Jacob Stoops: Yes, please respond on Twitter and we are joined by Mr Ian Howells. Ian, how are you doing?

00:00:33.390 –> 00:00:37.650
Ian Howells: Good man, Jacob. Jeff, thanks for thanks for having me on. We

00:00:37.680 –> 00:00:38.640
Jeff Louella: Are very

00:00:38.910 –> 00:00:56.100
Jacob Stoops: Very excited and I don’t want to bury the lead. But if you don’t know, Ian. He is the one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank. And we’ve already had one of his counterparts on I think about 10 months ago, Nick Eubanks who also

00:00:57.210 –> 00:01:09.030
Jacob Stoops: Founded Traffic Think Tank. They’ve got a lot of really awesome stuff going on there, which I’m sure that we’ll get into and then he and I believe you. You’re also, you also have a day job at a soft landing tree.

00:01:09.420 –> 00:01:17.130
Ian Howells: So I did previously. Up until the end of August of 2019 I was leading the the SEO team at lending tree.

00:01:18.150 –> 00:01:23.820
Ian Howells: Yep. Now just affiliate stuff consulting and Traffic Think Tank are kind of the three legs of the stool and

00:01:23.850 –> 00:01:28.440
Jacob Stoops: I had that in my notes and I completely glossed over it. We do take notes here.

00:01:28.680 –> 00:01:29.160
Ian Howells: Before we

00:01:29.400 –> 00:01:33.120
Jacob Stoops: Find people and then I just get on and I just messed them mess them all up or

00:01:33.540 –> 00:01:34.800
Jacob Stoops: In one case I butchered

00:01:34.800 –> 00:01:36.420
Jacob Stoops: Somebody somebody’s name.

00:01:37.950 –> 00:01:45.960
Jacob Stoops: Almost immediately, I believe that was Jamie, I called her out Jericho. It’s Alba Rico and she definitely called me on that.

00:01:47.070 –> 00:01:49.590
Jacob Stoops: Yet Lee, which was a little embarrassing.

00:01:50.010 –> 00:01:54.300
Ian Howells: I mean, it’s better to call better to call a name mispronunciation out early. Right.

00:01:54.420 –> 00:01:57.060
Ian Howells: Rather than it happening over and over and over again.

00:01:57.360 –> 00:02:05.790
Jacob Stoops: The whole thing. It’s like that episode of Friends were Chandler gets called Toby at his workplace and he never corrects them and then you Toby from there on for like six years.

00:02:07.590 –> 00:02:19.350
Jacob Stoops: And he anyways. So in today’s episode. For those of you that have listened, you’ll kind of know what’s coming for any first time listeners. Let me just tell you kind of what we’re going to do.

00:02:20.100 –> 00:02:33.090
Jacob Stoops: The hallmark of this show is kind of the origin stories of great SEOs SEO is not a very old industry and in our experience, nobody tends to get into

00:02:33.390 –> 00:02:41.940
Jacob Stoops: Especially if you’ve been in it for a while, into SEO on purpose. A lot of people come from other places. And we’re interested in figuring out

00:02:42.240 –> 00:02:47.880
Jacob Stoops: What are those other places, and how, how did how did people get into SEO in the first place, and what are their

00:02:48.510 –> 00:02:52.290
Jacob Stoops: What are their backgrounds and even more importantly, we’d like to talk about

00:02:52.860 –> 00:03:00.960
Jacob Stoops: Successes failures, what it’s like to be an SEO day to day. It’s kind of it can be kind of a grind and we like to kind of get deep on

00:03:01.410 –> 00:03:09.840
Jacob Stoops: What people experience on a day to day basis. So that’s kind of part one. Part two. And this is something that we’ve added in Season two is we like to

00:03:10.620 –> 00:03:22.230
Jacob Stoops: We like to talk about what’s what’s in the news kind of current events in the SEO world, which usually ends up with me just yelling about various SEO topics and ranting and complaining, but that’s it. That’s okay.

00:03:23.250 –> 00:03:29.250
Jacob Stoops: Jeff kind of runs runs that section and he kind of balances ME OUT HE’S KIND OF THE even keeled person and I just go off.

00:03:29.250 –> 00:03:32.040

00:03:32.220 –> 00:03:40.140
Jacob Stoops: Well, Jeff, I want to, I want to hear just for one wants me being maybe the even keeled person and just being cool and you just

00:03:40.320 –> 00:03:43.200
Jacob Stoops: I want to know what you want to rant about at some point I want to see that.

00:03:43.290 –> 00:03:46.950
Jeff Louella: So all right, I will do some topics, the data Jeff will ramp.

00:03:47.940 –> 00:03:59.040
Jacob Stoops: And then the third, the third leg of the stool in our, in our episodes is typically a deep dive and today’s deep dive is going to be on affiliate sites.

00:03:59.670 –> 00:04:12.570
Jacob Stoops: Which we’re excited to talk about. So if you’re in the affiliate game or if you’re not in the affiliate game and you’re thinking about it. We’re going to deep dive into that topic at the towards the end of the episode so

00:04:14.070 –> 00:04:14.520
Jacob Stoops: Ian

00:04:15.870 –> 00:04:22.890
Jacob Stoops: Let’s jump into kind of the first phase, who are you, how did you get into SEO, what, what’s your story.

00:04:23.430 –> 00:04:35.400
Ian Howells: Cool. So, like you mentioned up top. Ian howls co founder and partner at trek think tank which the short version of that is a 700 plus now person community.

00:04:35.940 –> 00:04:48.120
Ian Howells: Community portion happens in Slack all of the educational kind of training material and resources are all within Traffic Think Tank calm. So think of like distilled you accept not five years out of date now.

00:04:49.980 –> 00:04:55.170
Ian Howells: Is the website portion and then the community. I think is really one of the the big strong

00:04:55.680 –> 00:05:03.450
Ian Howells: Assets for it because folks can ask questions get feedback on campaign ideas that they’re going to have more if you just get stuck on something that’s a good way to

00:05:04.110 –> 00:05:13.710
Ian Howells: Just kind of stop smashing your head against the wall, have a problem and get feedback from from other folks, kind of in real time. But in terms of

00:05:14.520 –> 00:05:21.870
Ian Howells: Getting started in the the industry. I built a website when I was in high school, my cousin and I actually started

00:05:22.470 –> 00:05:30.390
Ian Howells: What would be now called a blog, but then was not called a blog because at that point blogs were literally just

00:05:30.810 –> 00:05:40.680
Ian Howells: Like an online Diary of like what your day was about. So at that point we hated the word blog like rebelled against it completely because that sounded like

00:05:41.160 –> 00:05:50.400
Ian Howells: Stuff that like children, but would do. Right. And we were all a 15 at that point. So like we were obviously, way, way too cool for that.

00:05:50.940 –> 00:06:05.670
Ian Howells: So today would be called a blog started that in December of 99 when I was, I think, a freshman in high school. So, you know, like all cool kids in high school I was sitting around learning HTML.

00:06:06.420 –> 00:06:15.240
Ian Howells: So that was, that was fun, really good for your social life being the kid that you know is figuring out how to build websites but worked out long term so

00:06:16.050 –> 00:06:16.680
Ian Howells: That’s all right.

00:06:16.980 –> 00:06:22.440
Jeff Louella: I was the kid with the Commodore 64 so myself a little bit more, but we would trigger games on the bus.

00:06:23.100 –> 00:06:38.850
Ian Howells: So what’s funny is like I wish I went back that far. We didn’t have a computer in the house until 98 my parents got a gateway and they make splurged and went crazy and got like the six gig hard drive and the 64 Meg’s around like it was

00:06:39.180 –> 00:06:40.320
Ian Howells: It was a dream at that

00:06:42.270 –> 00:06:49.680
Ian Howells: But I built the site with my cousin as a hobby really because other guys in high school, so I took art.

00:06:50.100 –> 00:06:56.100
Ian Howells: In high school, and there were juniors and seniors in my class because like art was just an elective it wasn’t part of a track or whatever.

00:06:56.790 –> 00:07:07.680
Ian Howells: And these guys had built their own website and they were hilarious and it was basically like online short skit type things written out

00:07:08.460 –> 00:07:22.860
Ian Howells: And I wanted to be a part of it. But I was this like dumb freshman. So I was like, well, screw it like we can just make our own. So we built a website and just run it as a hobby for like two years and then I was in

00:07:24.630 –> 00:07:32.100
Ian Howells: Some webmaster forum. I can’t, I can’t remember which one it was. But one of the guys that were on there. This guy, Aaron.

00:07:33.360 –> 00:07:41.130
Ian Howells: He has since legally changed his name to sunshine Megatron he he built t shirt hell calm.

00:07:41.610 –> 00:07:48.870
Ian Howells: And T shirt hell had an affiliate program. And so he painted a bunch of people from the forum and was like, hey, do you want to join my affiliate program.

00:07:49.380 –> 00:07:59.550
Ian Howells: Was like, I have no idea what that is, but maybe so he gave me like the 92nd elevator pitch of what affiliate marketing was. It was basically like just make an account. I’ll give you a wink.

00:07:59.940 –> 00:08:15.270
Ian Howells: Put the link out to your website, if somebody clicks through that and buys a t shirt. I’ll give you five bucks for each shirt that they buy it was like, well, you can make money on the internet like i can i can make money for my website. Tell me more.

00:08:16.380 –> 00:08:16.560
Ian Howells: Well,

00:08:16.620 –> 00:08:21.450
Jacob Stoops: Not only could you make money, you basically had a person with the name of a transformer

00:08:22.710 –> 00:08:32.760
Ian Howells: Not yet. But he was still just Aaron at that point he is a crazy person. I don’t know if he’s like in a bunker somewhere if he is still accessible that you’d be

00:08:33.330 –> 00:08:45.240
Ian Howells: Talk to him but interesting life story, I’m sure. But this was in 2001 so like for two years just built a website as a hobby and

00:08:46.080 –> 00:08:55.770
Ian Howells: That was kind of it and then 2001 was introduced to this whole affiliate thing. And I was like, Okay, this will be great. So put some banners on the site.

00:08:56.160 –> 00:09:09.300
Ian Howells: First month sell like 30 T shirts and make 150 bucks. And I was like, Oh damn, this is amazing because at this point I’m 17 right so the option is either work every Saturday for the like.

00:09:09.630 –> 00:09:21.120
Ian Howells: $5 and 25 cents an hour. I think that minimum wage was at that point, or just screw around on the internet and make the same amount of money each month. I was like, this is beautiful.

00:09:21.660 –> 00:09:29.760
Ian Howells: And then the second month hats and we sell like three t shirts. And then the third month hits and we don’t sell any news like ah shit.

00:09:30.900 –> 00:09:49.080
Ian Howells: Okay, so turn. Turns out we have like the same hundred to 200 visitors to the website every single day. So by month three of promoting literally one thing everyone saw it already. So like if they were going to buy one of those T shirts, they already bought it and we were done.

00:09:50.790 –> 00:10:09.090
Ian Howells: So then it was like okay well I need a lot of traffic and I need a lot of new traffic. And if you ask any 17 year old guy on the internet. What gets a lot of traffic on the web is answers probably going to be the same. It was an adult websites will will say to use the

00:10:09.360 –> 00:10:10.410
Jacob Stoops: Horn, it’s for

00:10:10.440 –> 00:10:12.570
Ian Howells: Clean important. Yeah, yeah, it’s probably part

00:10:13.500 –> 00:10:13.980

00:10:15.930 –> 00:10:26.340
Ian Howells: So that it was like Okay, so here’s how dumb. I was, I had a shared hosting account that was running me like 20 or 30 bucks a month at that point because hosting this still pricey.

00:10:27.810 –> 00:10:38.700
Ian Howells: And I go to one adult site, they don’t even I think they still exist, but they’re not really a thing anymore. They were called T GPS thumbnail gallery posts.

00:10:39.060 –> 00:10:49.050
Ian Howells: Which was basically a big just text list and every day, there’d be like 50 or 100 new links and it’d be like an eight word description and you would click through.

00:10:49.560 –> 00:10:58.800
Ian Howells: And then all of the most of the listings were like third party external people sites and you would build a single page photo gallery with like

00:10:59.280 –> 00:11:07.530
Ian Howells: 10 to 15 thumbnails and then two or three calls to action to try and push people to a pay site to get them to sign up is that the short version of how it worked.

00:11:08.070 –> 00:11:16.620
Ian Howells: Here’s how idiotic. I was, I went to one tip there were two big ones that I knew about through, you know, recreational internet usage, let’s say,

00:11:17.730 –> 00:11:27.720
Ian Howells: I went to the first big one that I know about click through to one of the galleries downloaded all the photos built my own gallery and submitted it to the second

00:11:28.260 –> 00:11:38.310
Ian Howells: Big tip site that I knew about. And instead of pushing an adult site with adult content. I tried to sell them offensive T shirts from t shirt health so

00:11:39.030 –> 00:11:46.620
Ian Howells: Total copyright infringement, because I just stole, I had no right to use those images whatsoever just downloaded them and through them back up on a new page.

00:11:47.100 –> 00:11:58.860
Ian Howells: And then took people that were looking for pictures of naked women, and then said, hey, want to buy a t shirt. So that was about as well as you would expect.

00:11:59.040 –> 00:11:59.550
Ian Howells: To go

00:11:59.820 –> 00:12:01.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s a logical jump, I guess.

00:12:01.350 –> 00:12:12.630
Ian Howells: Right. Because, because I didn’t even like it had not even occurred to me yet that like affiliate programs existed for other things I just knew about this one. So when you only have a hammer.

00:12:13.050 –> 00:12:21.030
Ian Howells: Everything looks like a nail. So I was like, well, okay, I’ll just get a bunch of traffic to look at this banner and surely someone will buy a t shirt.

00:12:21.960 –> 00:12:32.430
Ian Howells: Turns out, no and turns out a small shared hosting account cannot withstand like 70,000 visits in a 24 hour period, at least at that point.

00:12:32.910 –> 00:12:42.900
Ian Howells: So my hosting crashes, the host wasn’t a huge host. So I have the actual guy who owns the company emailing me basically saying like, what the hell are you doing

00:12:44.490 –> 00:12:54.030
Ian Howells: So that was great. A nice bandwidth overcharged that I’ve been had to come up with. But that was my first kind of exposure to

00:12:54.720 –> 00:13:08.430
Ian Howells: Holy crap. There’s way more traffic than, like, I realized, one could get to there were like 70,000 people in a day before the hosting crash. So like it could have been over 100 for all I know.

00:13:09.030 –> 00:13:25.620
Ian Howells: And then, you know, kind of the head smacking like maybe I should try and sell somebody. The thing that they are very clearly looking for not trying to divert them to another. So it was a good lesson, even though it was like a $200 bandwidth bill that I had to

00:13:26.550 –> 00:13:27.120
Jeff Louella: Pay for

00:13:27.330 –> 00:13:30.450
Ian Howells: Which one, you’re 17 is not, you know, super, super fun.

00:13:31.140 –> 00:13:41.340
Jacob Stoops: I think the question that I wanted. So how long did you stay in the in the porn game in terms of, like, working, working on the those types of sites.

00:13:41.610 –> 00:13:50.700
Ian Howells: Until I met my now wife in 2005 okay so that’s so almost four years, four years, yep.

00:13:51.180 –> 00:13:53.430
Jacob Stoops: So you’re 17 at the time and you

00:13:53.430 –> 00:13:53.910

00:13:56.160 –> 00:13:56.310
Jacob Stoops: The

00:13:56.430 –> 00:13:59.610
Jacob Stoops: The only thing I can imagine is a lot of giggling

00:14:01.200 –> 00:14:01.920
Jacob Stoops: And not only that,

00:14:02.370 –> 00:14:04.620
Ian Howells: The novelty wears off pretty quick.

00:14:04.800 –> 00:14:06.660
Jacob Stoops: Well, that’s what I was gonna ask one. What’s it

00:14:06.810 –> 00:14:11.880
Jacob Stoops: What is it like having never like done work for a porn site. I know that there are

00:14:11.880 –> 00:14:19.470
Jacob Stoops: People that do that. And then, especially being that young, how the hell did you explain that to your parents or did you

00:14:20.460 –> 00:14:30.180
Ian Howells: So they knew I was running websites because at the time. I still had to literally like use my mom’s credit card to buy domains.

00:14:30.180 –> 00:14:32.280
Ian Howells: Because I’m 70 like I didn’t

00:14:32.490 –> 00:14:39.750
Ian Howells: So I would literally give her cash and then she would punch her credit card number into I.

00:14:41.700 –> 00:14:45.660
Ian Howells: I can’t remember in my domain GoDaddy. I can’t remember the first place I bought a domain.

00:14:47.520 –> 00:14:54.630
Ian Howells: But they were like $30 a year at the time, like when I first bought a domain, like now it’s a joke it like there’s

00:14:55.200 –> 00:15:00.480
Ian Howells: Some deal. These are like a buck 99 or 99 cents. It’s not ones you want, but still

00:15:00.900 –> 00:15:08.130
Ian Howells: Like at that point 30 bucks a year for your domain plus 20 or 30 bucks a month for hosting like kind of bar was was a lot higher.

00:15:08.490 –> 00:15:20.850
Ian Howells: And so they knew that like this was a thing. And mostly about the hobby site that was that I was running with my cousin until check started showing up at the house and then it was like, what, what the hell is this

00:15:22.950 –> 00:15:29.670
Ian Howells: Yeah, about that. So I think they were thankfully they were super cool about it. They were

00:15:30.420 –> 00:15:39.360
Ian Howells: I guess a good point of context here when I was 17 my parents were 35 and 36 they were 18 and 19 when they had me

00:15:40.140 –> 00:15:52.140
Ian Howells: So they were my age now basically so me having a 17 year old kid. So they still remembered I guess the point is they still remembered kind of being a 17 or 18 year old because

00:15:52.470 –> 00:16:00.990
Ian Howells: They were like 15 months away from accidentally getting pregnant with yours truly. So of all the things that I could be getting into, I think, was their

00:16:02.010 –> 00:16:17.700
Ian Howells: Perspective. This was like that that big of a deal like okay if you turn a 17 year old kid loose with a cable internet connection. He’s probably going to look at porn. Anyway, like screw and if he’s going to make money off of it like it’s not illegal, like what the hell.

00:16:18.810 –> 00:16:19.050

00:16:21.720 –> 00:16:22.860
Jacob Stoops: So where did you go from there.

00:16:24.000 –> 00:16:35.730
Ian Howells: So did the adult thing for a while. A big regret is that I did not push harder on that front. Right. Because once I got to the point where I was making a few hundred dollars a month.

00:16:36.450 –> 00:16:45.600
Ian Howells: I then just got super lazy like being a kid still at that point, like I didn’t have a concept of hey, if you work really hard.

00:16:46.110 –> 00:16:54.960
Ian Howells: And do a lot of effort into this like this can become like a big, full time income level type situation.

00:16:55.800 –> 00:17:03.960
Ian Howells: Like I just had no awareness of the fact that that was even possible, right. I’m like 18 months removed from. Oh my god, you can make money on the internet.

00:17:04.290 –> 00:17:08.880
Ian Howells: So the fact that, like this could be the way somebody supports themselves full time.

00:17:09.630 –> 00:17:16.950
Ian Howells: Just didn’t even seem like a plausible thing. So I would work to the point where I was making like six or 800 bucks a month.

00:17:17.490 –> 00:17:25.890
Ian Howells: And then we’re just kind of let it coast and then if like if money started falling off, I’d build a couple more pages or free sites at that time they were called

00:17:26.640 –> 00:17:34.140
Ian Howells: And get it back to the point where it was up in that six $800 range again and then like repeat just over and over and over again because

00:17:34.800 –> 00:17:40.770
Ian Howells: You know, as long as I was buying video games. And then in college like beer money like

00:17:41.400 –> 00:17:55.170
Ian Howells: It didn’t, you know, it didn’t seem like a pressing thing to you know forgo going out for the night to sit at home and you know Peck away and dream Weaver and make new new pages look. What is the quote night in

00:17:55.230 –> 00:18:10.200
Jacob Stoops: The movie The Social Network. I feel like it’s Justin Timberlake character that that says something to the effect of, you know, what’s cool you think or something like you think a million dollars is cool. Let me tell you what’s really cool a billion dollars.

00:18:11.580 –> 00:18:12.870
Jacob Stoops: If you needed that mindset.

00:18:13.020 –> 00:18:13.920
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I

00:18:14.040 –> 00:18:17.610
Ian Howells: Did not did not have that, I guess, unfortunately, so

00:18:18.960 –> 00:18:31.170
Ian Howells: I kind of plugged away on that for you know, while until 2005 when I met my wife ended up selling the the few sites that I had that were worth selling at that point.

00:18:31.740 –> 00:18:40.500
Ian Howells: The ones that had kind of their own traffic and wasn’t just the hamster wheel of like submit a page get listed get traffic. Three days later, it’s gone. And you just kind of repeat

00:18:41.490 –> 00:18:51.750
Ian Howells: And moved from the adult industry into online poker. So, you know, again, just sticking with like vice marketing, I guess, and going with stuff that

00:18:53.910 –> 00:19:01.200
Ian Howells: I knew from my own internet usage, let’s say, and stuff that had attractive payouts right because the

00:19:01.680 –> 00:19:13.170
Ian Howells: The attractive thing about the adult industry was a a sign up, it’d be worth anywhere from 30 to $50 one time CPA and there was just

00:19:14.070 –> 00:19:30.060
Ian Howells: an absurd abundance of traffic to be had. Right. So, like, getting to the point where you’re doing like I said that six $800 a month level was not hard, like I did not know anything, and was doing that as like a 17 1819 year old kid.

00:19:31.080 –> 00:19:50.220
Ian Howells: So went from that to online poker only really pushed an online poker for like a year because in I think it was October of 2006 the safe port act passes and online gambling in the US, almost disappears overnight.

00:19:50.220 –> 00:19:53.490
Ian Howells: Because all the major credit card processors lose the ability to

00:19:53.820 –> 00:20:07.590
Ian Howells: Run charges for these gambling sites. So I had a good year primarily promoting poker room calm the big draw. There was, it was now $100 like if you got a real money.

00:20:08.280 –> 00:20:19.560
Ian Howells: Verified deposit player you get 100 bucks so started out really simple and kind of scam me were like the weekly poker game that me and my friends did on Tuesday.

00:20:19.890 –> 00:20:25.590
Ian Howells: I just got the other nine guys to sign up through my affiliate link and then it was like, okay, sign up

00:20:26.040 –> 00:20:37.110
Ian Howells: And then get on aim and let me know your name in poker room, and then we’ll start a heads up match and I will just intentionally lose $50 to you.

00:20:37.410 –> 00:20:45.840
Ian Howells: And we’ll call it. Even so, like you sign up for me. I got 100 bucks. I’ll purposely dump 50 bucks to you in game because we can just talk on AIM about like

00:20:46.260 –> 00:20:58.350
Ian Howells: What cards we have and figure out how to how to make this work. So like a a in incentivize traffic, I guess, through real life and then just started building out

00:20:59.250 –> 00:21:16.650
Ian Howells: Fairly simple sites through recounting what I actually did was just word count games that I would actually play online and made like a online poker blog basically just talking about playing online and then having poker room calm ads all the hell over the place.

00:21:17.910 –> 00:21:27.150
Ian Howells: But only got to do that for like a year, which is unfortunate because hundred dollar payouts were really good and in like 2005 2004 or five, six, like right after

00:21:27.780 –> 00:21:36.480
Ian Howells: Chris moneymaker basically made online poker exploded in popularity, there was kind of lots of traffic and referrals to go around.

00:21:37.680 –> 00:21:47.460
Ian Howells: But then it all disappears overnight because of a bill that the Senate passes so I’m near the tail end of college. At this point, I was on the five year plan.

00:21:48.090 –> 00:22:00.540
Ian Howells: I majored in graphic design and I figured like, hey, I can just like I’m already building websites for myself, like maybe I can just get a job building websites for other people. So that’s how I ended up picking graphic design as my

00:22:01.230 –> 00:22:08.610
Ian Howells: As my major. Again, it did not occur to me that, like, oh, I could just work for myself or I can just build sites that that earn money.

00:22:10.110 –> 00:22:18.930
Ian Howells: And so I’m in what was supposed to be my last year of college turned out to be year year four of five.

00:22:19.980 –> 00:22:31.170
Ian Howells: And it just, you know, the bottom falls out, like the all the sites I have are now completely worthless. Nobody will want to buy them because they can’t monetize the traffic either

00:22:31.800 –> 00:22:37.110
Ian Howells: So that kind of reinforced for me that, like, yeah, maybe this whole

00:22:37.830 –> 00:22:44.130
Ian Howells: You know, trying to make money on the internet thing, definitely. It’s not a thing that you should do as your attempt at full time income because

00:22:44.370 –> 00:22:51.300
Ian Howells: Stuff like this could happen where one day you just wake up and because of something that has nothing to do with you all your money is just gone.

00:22:53.340 –> 00:22:59.490
Ian Howells: So the following year in 2007 I am getting ready to

00:23:00.510 –> 00:23:07.950
Ian Howells: Coming into college and as a graphic design, Major, you have to do a senior show with like your art portfolio. Right, so I need a printer.

00:23:09.000 –> 00:23:26.010
Ian Howells: Locally to print all my stuff. And so I pull out the Yellow Book, like the physical Yellow Book. I don’t know if you’re our younger listeners here. Oh remember what the hell it was but there used to be these books that were like 300 pages and had phone numbers for everybody.

00:23:26.100 –> 00:23:26.550
Oh, yeah.

00:23:27.630 –> 00:23:41.220
Ian Howells: So I’m flipping through the Yellow Pages looking for a printer and I come across a listing for pepper jam Internet marketing in Wilkes barre Pennsylvania and I’m 20 minutes north of Wilkes barre in Scranton PA at this point.

00:23:43.290 –> 00:23:59.430
Ian Howells: And I was like, What the hell, there’s an internet marketing company in Wilkes Barre, so then that leads me to their website, it was hilarious. The bad. It’s a super like 19th looking website if you go through the Internet Archive and look at what pepper jam calm, but I think it was

00:23:59.460 –> 00:24:00.360
Ian Howells: Pepper jam search

00:24:00.420 –> 00:24:04.440
Ian Howells: Com. At that point, looks like in like 2007 but

00:24:06.150 –> 00:24:11.910
Ian Howells: I ended up emailing the VP of search can moan with just like, hey,

00:24:12.600 –> 00:24:32.100
Ian Howells: I mean, how’s here’s some stuff that I’ve done, and just talk about like selling subscriptions to porn sites and poker online, not even thinking for a minute that like, hey, maybe this is kind of weird and like that and not the way to get a response from like an actual company doing

00:24:32.160 –> 00:24:33.030
Ian Howells: Internet marketing.

00:24:33.960 –> 00:24:39.360
Ian Howells: Turns out, though it was a great idea because they later told me like that was the reason that he answered the cold.

00:24:39.630 –> 00:24:46.140
Ian Howells: Email was like, Oh, somebody has built affiliate websites before and like gotten traffic through search and monetized it

00:24:46.560 –> 00:24:54.930
Ian Howells: And so had I not mentioned it, and was just like, oh, I’m a local college student at Mary, would I was wondering if there were internships or whatever he probably would have completely ignored me

00:24:55.920 –> 00:25:07.740
Ian Howells: But that got me a phone interview in person interview then internship my last semester of college and then college graduation was a Sunday that Monday I started at pepper jam full time.

00:25:08.970 –> 00:25:17.730
Ian Howells: Six months later I was running the SEO team at pepper jam in fairness, it didn’t even really exist when I got there was basically can the BP in one writer.

00:25:17.940 –> 00:25:26.490
Ian Howells: So he looked at it, it’s like, Okay, great. Here’s somebody that knows SEO like let me just dump this chunk of work off on him and he can run with it.

00:25:27.600 –> 00:25:38.580
Ian Howells: Short version three years later pepper jam cells to gtsi commerce down in Philadelphia. That’s where I meet Mr. The Willa. And my boss for like the nine minutes that he stuck around

00:25:40.140 –> 00:25:44.250
Jeff Louella: And though that was interesting times. I mean, Pepper jam. When we we bought

00:25:45.510 –> 00:25:57.480
Jeff Louella: We bought pepper jam for its affiliate network. Yep. And then it was interesting. And then like learning when we peel back some of the skins on the onion, see what’s behind there there was some fun things we found, but

00:25:57.540 –> 00:25:58.920
Ian Howells: Oh, it was garbage.

00:26:00.210 –> 00:26:03.030
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I think they had, like, once they got in there like crap.

00:26:03.240 –> 00:26:13.710
Jeff Louella: We bought, but it’s still around today and it seems like it’s it’s gotten better. But I remember just getting I come into the office and my boss at the time was just like

00:26:14.370 –> 00:26:22.800
Jeff Louella: Hey, we bought a company and they have an SEO team just drive up there and meet them and see see who you want to you know who you like up there and things like that so

00:26:23.550 –> 00:26:30.540
Jeff Louella: Me and Bill Sebald drove up there. I don’t know if you remember that day, but it was kind of it was fun. I think it was meet you, Eric and Todd.

00:26:32.310 –> 00:26:42.390
Jeff Louella: I think that was really the three they might have been someone else or two, but no, it was, it was interesting time and right there. Like, I think we all got kind of got along really well and

00:26:44.100 –> 00:26:51.720
Jeff Louella: And after that, you kind of taught me some things about affiliates and I think we use some or at least I used I’ll say some auto blogging tools that

00:26:52.440 –> 00:26:55.890
Jeff Louella: Got me a little bit of money that I learned I was because I always want to learn to kind of the

00:26:56.640 –> 00:27:10.890
Jeff Louella: The darker side of SEO. And at that time I was I was still somewhat newer I was a developer who moved into SEO when I was at Razorfish, and then right my second job was at GSA and you will learn that a deal size network. He couldn’t do much on

00:27:11.970 –> 00:27:16.920
Jeff Louella: The and every time I would go to a client. So you have to fix this, this and this and they’re like, well, we can’t because our platform is bad.

00:27:18.150 –> 00:27:19.920
Ian Howells: And by the way, our platforms you

00:27:20.460 –> 00:27:21.090
Jeff Louella: Yeah, exactly.

00:27:22.830 –> 00:27:23.730
Ian Howells: slightly awkward.

00:27:25.290 –> 00:27:31.500
Jeff Louella: So that that was always an issue there. But we, but yeah. When I got to meet you at that point it was, it was awesome. And then

00:27:32.010 –> 00:27:38.880
Jeff Louella: I just, you know, was hitting my head against the wall bunch of times there and you had some falling outs between me and some of the

00:27:39.540 –> 00:27:46.110
Jeff Louella: I’ll say I was in a weird position because I wasn’t leadership, but I reported all to the like the major leadership there.

00:27:46.770 –> 00:28:00.510
Jeff Louella: But then with the people in my life I was the only one who wasn’t like a VP or director level with all in all, the VP meetings. And then when I would go back to everyone who was like the same level as me. They wouldn’t want to talk to me because I thought I was a snitch.

00:28:02.760 –> 00:28:04.290
Ian Howells: The plant the leadership.

00:28:05.310 –> 00:28:05.610
Jeff Louella: It.

00:28:06.120 –> 00:28:14.430
Jeff Louella: Was I was caught out that one time in a meeting. They said, like when I was in there like they thought I was the leadership, like a snitch on the leadership. And I’m like, I’m the opposite of that. Like, I’ll tell you everything they’re doing

00:28:15.780 –> 00:28:16.320
Jeff Louella: It but uh

00:28:16.440 –> 00:28:17.040

00:28:18.180 –> 00:28:21.780
Ian Howells: Guys, don’t get me wrong, I’m a terrible employee. I’m not helping them.

00:28:23.850 –> 00:28:31.590
Jeff Louella: And those meetings were just all insane anyway. But, so I would go through things and eventually I just told Bill as I go. I had to leave.

00:28:31.980 –> 00:28:38.310
Jeff Louella: And at that point, they decided that they were going to make be part of the leadership and like, Well, no, that’s not like I’m already made my decision.

00:28:38.970 –> 00:28:46.080
Jeff Louella: But the fun part was I had to the person who was in charge of the platform come to me because I always complained him about how bad the platform was

00:28:46.500 –> 00:28:54.330
Jeff Louella: So like they were coming out with like platform 11 or something and he they tried to get me to stay and become part of the platform team to make the platform or SEO friendly.

00:28:55.170 –> 00:29:06.750
Jeff Louella: Because that was always my plan was like you make the platform better every client, we have on it is better. Why are we trying to sell our clients SEO when we can fix our platform. And we got a percentage of all sales. We could have made it better.

00:29:07.890 –> 00:29:21.120
Jeff Louella: Than I heard like that platform didn’t really do very well and then eBay bought everybody and then it became like, then it was like an interesting I saw how they merge everything packaged it like fanatics com came out from that and then

00:29:21.450 –> 00:29:37.440
Ian Howells: Man, Michael Rubin is like, just like God damn. I don’t know how the hell he talked a bay and the letting him keep fanatics and the official league stores out of that deal and still walked away with two two or two 4 billion.

00:29:38.640 –> 00:29:39.120
Ian Howells: Amazing.

00:29:39.960 –> 00:29:42.120
Jeff Louella: And I see, I’m a big Sixers fan.

00:29:42.630 –> 00:29:47.910
Jeff Louella: And I see him sitting on the sidelines and next to like Allen Iverson and Meek Mill’s and I’m just like,

00:29:48.240 –> 00:29:54.120
Jeff Louella: Not bad. Not a bad job because, I mean, I’ve got, I had a couple meetings with him, where I got the pitch and he was

00:29:54.690 –> 00:30:01.140
Jeff Louella: He’s a smart dude. He was very energetic, you know, and I was great. But it was interesting time where it’s like, once he sold them like

00:30:01.650 –> 00:30:09.570
Jeff Louella: Hey, you started some sneakers out of the back of his mom’s car is kind of like a Amazon story in a way, you know, not as big, right. He’s not millionaire, but at the same time.

00:30:09.930 –> 00:30:11.160
Ian Howells: Thanks. All right, I think.

00:30:12.450 –> 00:30:13.500
Jeff Louella: For billions. Not too bad.

00:30:13.800 –> 00:30:18.000
Jeff Louella: You know and and become a minority owner of the Sixers and running.

00:30:18.240 –> 00:30:19.440
Ian Howells: fanatics and still

00:30:19.530 –> 00:30:24.450
Ian Howells: crushing it just that even if he had nothing else in the past. Just that alone like he’s

00:30:24.840 –> 00:30:28.830
Jeff Louella: Good at anything by rue La La are also some of those others flash sale site.

00:30:28.860 –> 00:30:30.600
Ian Howells: Yeah, real law was rolled in.

00:30:31.770 –> 00:30:42.600
Ian Howells: Mostly for the the email. We bought we being gtsi while I was there CLEAR SAILING so order attribution company out of Ohio. I think in like

00:30:42.630 –> 00:30:42.870
Jeff Louella: I was

00:30:42.990 –> 00:30:44.280
Ian Howells: Out in a lemon

00:30:44.520 –> 00:30:46.440
Jeff Louella: I was the person to introduce them all.

00:30:46.560 –> 00:30:53.790
Jeff Louella: Because I was a I was friends with some people over CLEAR SAILING and they asked me to introduce them to the analytics team.

00:30:55.020 –> 00:30:56.310
Jeff Louella: I was hoping I got a kick, but

00:30:57.360 –> 00:31:00.000
Jeff Louella: I left before that even like fully materialized but

00:31:01.020 –> 00:31:08.640
Ian Howells: But no, that was I guess just to complete kind of the, the career arc overview here gtsi

00:31:09.540 –> 00:31:23.700
Ian Howells: Jeff left very shortly after I got there, Bill Sebald was running the team. Start of 2011 bill Sebald decides he’s had enough. And he gets out of there. So then the hot potato goes to me run the SEO team inside there.

00:31:24.030 –> 00:31:34.830
Ian Howells: Jeff and I were talking before we started recording here. It had like 19 names because they kept hired new creative directors and day one every creative director wanted to rebrand the agency.

00:31:35.640 –> 00:31:47.160
Ian Howells: Eventually eBay buys the thing I lose interest pretty rapidly after we become part of eBay, like HR turned into, literally, here’s a phone number for a call center in Utah.

00:31:48.810 –> 00:31:57.900
Ian Howells: Call them if you need anything, right, like when you have that many employees, like, yeah, you’re not going to have big HR teams in each office, it would be crazy. So it makes sense, but

00:31:58.560 –> 00:32:06.570
Ian Howells: Wasn’t wasn’t for me and to 2012 end up going moving down to Charlotte, North Carolina, where I still am to work at Red ventures.

00:32:07.380 –> 00:32:21.570
Ian Howells: Ran, one of the the SEO teams in there until 2016 left RV in 2016 to head up the SEO team at lending tree and did that from 16 until

00:32:22.140 –> 00:32:33.720
Ian Howells: August of 2019 like I like I mentioned briefly before and now in the meantime affiliate stuff consulting launch Traffic Think Tank two years in a couple months ago now.

00:32:34.410 –> 00:32:39.270
Ian Howells: So always had kind of stuff going on outside of the main full time job. But that’s kind of the

00:32:39.870 –> 00:32:48.510
Ian Howells: The rough shape of the full time work with small agency with pepper jam get bought by a bigger agency in the form of gtsi eBay nine other different names.

00:32:49.470 –> 00:32:55.860
Ian Howells: In house to red ventures, which was a really interesting blend of in house and agency, because at that point.

00:32:56.400 –> 00:33:06.540
Ian Howells: RV didn’t really own their own website properties. It was licensed like it would be branded domains for DirecTV or ADT

00:33:07.470 –> 00:33:16.020
Ian Howells: So it was in partnership with large companies. So we were kind of an affiliate, but kind of in house because all the dev and tech and everything happened internally.

00:33:16.560 –> 00:33:36.660
Ian Howells: And then in house at back to a public company in house a lending tree and kind of getting reacquainted with the pros and cons of being at a large public co with, you know, the pros being most things comp related and the cons being the general speed at which things can get done.

00:33:37.650 –> 00:33:38.310
lack thereof.

00:33:40.380 –> 00:33:52.800
Jacob Stoops: So let’s talk about Traffic Think Tank, you guys are two plus years into that. Now, what led to that. Like what’s behind the idea. What’s it like today in terms of running that

00:33:53.400 –> 00:34:05.370
Ian Howells: Yeah, I think what led to it really Eubanks So Nick, did traffic thing tag. The one I guess you would call it on his own. So it was

00:34:06.450 –> 00:34:18.330
Ian Howells: Similar and very different at the same time. So he limited to I think 12 people but higher price point. It was 500 bucks a month.

00:34:18.780 –> 00:34:24.090
Ian Howells: But you had to sign up for the year. So basically he got 12 people to sign on for six grand

00:34:24.630 –> 00:34:34.020
Ian Howells: And then it was a Facebook group at that point. So like a 13 person Facebook group. So these 12 people and Nick. So, a lot more

00:34:34.380 –> 00:34:41.850
Ian Howells: Kind of deeper one on one individual consultation, because there’s only 12 people right like that’s a decently manageable.

00:34:42.540 –> 00:34:54.420
Ian Howells: Number to kind of go more in depth with with every single person. And part of what he did was each month he would do one like guest webinar on zoom right basically just

00:34:54.930 –> 00:35:02.490
Ian Howells: People, he knew from the industry through his own network would just ask, like, Hey, would you, would you be cool with coming on and doing a webinar for these folks.

00:35:03.390 –> 00:35:11.850
Ian Howells: He bought me some really good mine in exchange for doing it, which I didn’t know what was gonna happen when I said yes but like was a very nice Park afterward.

00:35:12.330 –> 00:35:23.100
Ian Howells: So I had done a webinar for him. And then he was starting to kind of come to the end of the 12 months, I think it was in like month nine or something.

00:35:23.700 –> 00:35:26.310
Ian Howells: And I had just made like a very offhandedly like

00:35:26.940 –> 00:35:39.510
Ian Howells: Hey, if you’re going to do TGT again like let me know if you know there’s a way for me to get involved or whatever, like something benign and kind of off the cuff. I had no Nick at that point.

00:35:40.050 –> 00:35:50.940
Ian Howells: Nick and I met into late 2010 or early 2011 through the Philadelphia SEO meetup SEO grill, which was phenomenal and like

00:35:51.600 –> 00:36:03.270
Ian Howells: Just an absurd roster of people. So we can go into that in a minute to so I didn’t know Nick for several years at this point. So just kind of threw that offer out there like, hey, if you’re looking to do more with this thing. Let me know.

00:36:04.500 –> 00:36:12.120
Ian Howells: And he had gotten back and was like, actually. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot. Like, I think the model makes sense.

00:36:13.290 –> 00:36:23.160
Ian Howells: If it scales up like I think we could scale up membership and bring down the price. So it’s not like you got to sign up for six grand for a year, right off the bat.

00:36:24.000 –> 00:36:32.490
Ian Howells: And kind of reach more people because at that point, you know, and I’m talking about like a history. It’s two years and four months ago, or whenever

00:36:34.650 –> 00:36:44.220
Ian Howells: You think about SEO book in that community kind of getting shuttered because Aaron had decided that he was going to kind of step back from doing that.

00:36:44.580 –> 00:37:03.150
Ian Howells: So that left kind of a void where. Okay, there was a paid SEO forum that ran. I think it was 99 bucks a month. So like not a in substantial price point, like a good gate to make sure that everybody in there was serious, so that it kind of left a void, and then

00:37:04.380 –> 00:37:07.020
Ian Howells: The mas community at that point was in a

00:37:07.860 –> 00:37:18.000
Ian Howells: Let’s call it a bit of turmoil. Right. Eventually, like they end up having to do layoffs and all that stuff that’s part of mothers history now that we don’t have to go into. But there was generally a

00:37:18.390 –> 00:37:30.720
Ian Howells: A lack of I think outside of Twitter but Twitter is very noisy and chaotic. There wasn’t a great like single point of community at least that I was aware of

00:37:31.770 –> 00:37:33.570
Ian Howells: So that felt like

00:37:34.620 –> 00:37:39.330
Ian Howells: To nick that felt like a big opportunity and I was less certain.

00:37:39.870 –> 00:37:51.480
Ian Howells: Matthew Howells-Barby, same kind of general opinion he did a big LinkedIn post about kind of the, the formation of traffic think tank where he says, much the same thing that like he wasn’t as confident as Nick was

00:37:51.960 –> 00:38:07.440
Ian Howells: You had Nick on already. I think one of the things that became probably very clear within the first few minutes of talking to him is that super high energy will make decisions quickly and then once he decides he’s going to do a thing like he’s he’s going to do the damn thing.

00:38:08.580 –> 00:38:19.710
Ian Howells: So he was kind of more bullish on it. I was like, maybe we’ll get 100 members like we can probably get 100 people that are serious enough that they’ll pay 99 bucks a month to join the thing

00:38:20.820 –> 00:38:31.440
Ian Howells: And I guess short story long. It went over a lot better than I initially thought. And it wasn’t until like month three where it was like oh shit like this could be

00:38:31.980 –> 00:38:41.640
Ian Howells: Like this could be a real thing. Like there is more appetite for this than I thought. I think what I discounted incorrectly. In the beginning was the

00:38:42.270 –> 00:38:52.740
Ian Howells: Amount of people that are individual affiliates and are just kind of like sitting in a home office by themselves all day grinding away doing their thing.

00:38:53.280 –> 00:39:06.540
Ian Howells: And people that are like the one online marketing person at their company right like digital is this one person and nobody else in the company knows what the hell they do.

00:39:06.930 –> 00:39:23.730
Ian Howells: They don’t have anybody to bounce ideas off of because again, nobody knows what the hell they’re doing all day and I think I just had a general lack of awareness of how many people find themselves in that situation. And I feel like that’s a need that we ended up filling

00:39:25.800 –> 00:39:27.750
Ian Howells: Hopefully, very well. So

00:39:28.050 –> 00:39:37.920
Jacob Stoops: One thing that occurred to me especially when you mentioned initially. Now, obviously, it’s much lower. Now it’s that initial $6,000 price point.

00:39:38.370 –> 00:39:53.340
Jacob Stoops: And I guess for for me thinking about like fine running that probably Nick being a more confident person than I would be like, Nope, I got this. Is that a lot of money to ask for people and it’s like

00:39:54.660 –> 00:40:04.890
Jacob Stoops: How do you bring enough value to justify somebody paying you that much money with with what you guys are doing that would feel like a lot of pressure.

00:40:05.640 –> 00:40:12.930
Jacob Stoops: Pressure to me. And I just wonder, how do you guys kind of manage that on ongoing in terms of making sure that the value is is there for the for the members.

00:40:13.350 –> 00:40:22.500
Ian Howells: So in the the first iteration. And again, this was 100% next on semi speculating here, but I’m fairly confident, how he basically positioned. It was like

00:40:23.190 –> 00:40:32.220
Ian Howells: Almost like your pre buying consulting time with him right so like it was the original 12 members if I’m remembering correctly. We’re all

00:40:32.940 –> 00:40:46.470
Ian Howells: people that own their own econ business or Legion business right like it wasn’t affiliates. It wasn’t the one full time marketing person at a company. It was the owner of a very small digital company.

00:40:46.950 –> 00:40:55.140
Ian Howells: That basically viewed this as I am purchasing $6,000 worth of strategy consulting from this person who knows what they’re doing.

00:40:55.500 –> 00:41:10.170
Ian Howells: I have a junior person or I can do like I have execution figured out what I need is guidance to make sure that I’m not shooting myself in the foot and that I’m doing smart things, I think, was basically the the rough

00:41:11.040 –> 00:41:20.910
Ian Howells: Outline of positioning there, which in that light, it makes sense, right, because if you think about an hourly SEO consulting right 500 bucks a month is a joke right so

00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:35.160
Ian Howells: I think with that angle it made sense. And then for him. I think attractive 12 people same 12 people, you get to go pretty deep with everybody. So you can kind of have more meaningful connections and results.

00:41:35.910 –> 00:41:44.430
Ian Howells: But now for us. I think the the responsibility part is interesting, I think, as the community has gotten bigger

00:41:44.940 –> 00:41:51.090
Ian Howells: We’ve gotten less and less reliant on me, Nick and Matt right because like first 50 members like

00:41:51.600 –> 00:41:58.980
Ian Howells: Munich and Matt one of us had to answer every single question that came in and slack. And I think as the community has grown

00:41:59.670 –> 00:42:08.340
Ian Howells: It’s now gotten to a point where, by the time I see a question come in, there’ll be three or four answers in a thread already from other people who

00:42:09.090 –> 00:42:16.770
Ian Howells: All know you know what they’re what they’re talking about every once in a while they’ll be like an idea for another whatever that will come in and be like, and maybe

00:42:17.880 –> 00:42:23.880
Ian Howells: Maybe don’t do that exactly but like Core Kernel of the idea is good. Like I would do XYZ

00:42:24.480 –> 00:42:33.150
Ian Howells: And so I think the the kind of self reinforcing aspect of the Community has been super exciting to watch kind of take take shape and continue to grow.

00:42:33.870 –> 00:42:41.850
Ian Howells: But it is. I think it is a responsibility on us to make sure that we continue to produce you know stuff that’s

00:42:42.270 –> 00:42:51.840
Ian Howells: Timely and useful in a variety of situations. I think that’s probably the hard part is trying to make sure that you’re creating guidance and resources that is

00:42:52.800 –> 00:42:57.000
Ian Howells: That are applicable to people in a variety of roles, because we have

00:42:57.720 –> 00:43:09.480
Ian Howells: Members in I think 21 of the 24 time zones working on every industry, you could imagine, right. So you have to try and make sure that you’re really hitting the, the core

00:43:10.050 –> 00:43:18.360
Ian Howells: Of a concept or idea and make sure that it’s actually useful for the community at large. And then the other piece is just ensuring that we continue to tap

00:43:19.950 –> 00:43:26.220
Ian Howells: Other experts in the community come on and talk about the stuff that they’re good at, right. So like having Hamlet. Come on.

00:43:26.700 –> 00:43:31.740
Ian Howells: And do a Python webinar was like extremely useful for a bunch of folks so we try and make sure that

00:43:32.160 –> 00:43:49.290
Ian Howells: You know we we keep our finger on the pulse of what what sort of stuff does the community want and then go out and see, okay, if that’s not like I can’t write Python to save my goddamn life. So when it’s something that like we can’t do go find somebody who can and bring him on so

00:43:49.440 –> 00:43:58.290
Jacob Stoops: Last question I want to ask in it’s not as much of a question is more of like, what’s it like in before we move on to the news.

00:43:59.160 –> 00:44:09.330
Jacob Stoops: You guys are. I think it’s your second event Traffic Think Tank live, which by the way it is. On May 16, it is not in Philadelphia. It’s in Miami.

00:44:10.050 –> 00:44:28.290
Jacob Stoops: For and I’m going to give you a quick promo for non members. It’s $349 for members traffic thing take members. It’s $149 for a ticket. So go bye bye bye attend attend attend, but I want to know. And I asked, Nick, the same question. What’s it like to put on an event.

00:44:28.650 –> 00:44:38.610
Ian Howells: Though was dumb. It was like it was so much more like when you talk like I’ve said a few times. Like my general lack of awareness like

00:44:39.060 –> 00:44:57.480
Ian Howells: I think all three of us were inflicted with that on this one. It was like, Oh, how much work. Can it be into a one day conference, like what could possibly be involved in this. Turns out there’s a dumb amount of work involved in running a conference we did the first one by ourselves.

00:44:58.920 –> 00:45:08.100
Ian Howells: Mistake. I don’t know. It was good that we did it because we realized very quickly. Like, how much is actually involved and how

00:45:08.100 –> 00:45:17.010
Ian Howells: Like, you should just hire a professional. If you’re gonna throw an event like just hire an event planner. And so we had

00:45:18.030 –> 00:45:24.360
Ian Howells: Yeah, it was hectic. So like literally 10 minutes before registration started the morning of the conference.

00:45:24.750 –> 00:45:32.010
Ian Howells: We were still working with the AV guy from the Hilton to try and get us to the point where slides would project onto the screen like

00:45:32.760 –> 00:45:42.510
Ian Howells: Everything was just going wrong like anything that could go wrong went wrong, like it was a good kind of intro, you know, kick in the face for

00:45:43.110 –> 00:45:55.020
Ian Howells: For running an event. But now, you know, thankfully, it still went over fine the presenters, all you know stepped up and delivered and talks were really good getting

00:45:55.410 –> 00:46:05.940
Ian Howells: I think the really great thing was getting all of these people that are used to interacting and slack together in person was awesome, right, because now all of a sudden

00:46:06.390 –> 00:46:15.900
Ian Howells: You have all these conversations happening where then light bulbs are going off, like, Oh, you’re a bubble. Like I recognize your, you know, Avatar and whatever, like you have all these folks who were talking online.

00:46:16.170 –> 00:46:21.390
Ian Howells: Now, getting to meet in person. So that was, that was awesome. And then this year.

00:46:23.160 –> 00:46:33.150
Ian Howells: Version we hired an event planning company they had done one of the earlier mas cons. So not only used to event planning, but also for our particular industry.

00:46:33.840 –> 00:46:48.870
Ian Howells: And that is worth every single penny that a good event planner will charge you because there’s so much stuff that we just had no idea about that she is just breezing through and it makes life a million times easier.

00:46:49.230 –> 00:46:57.600
Jacob Stoops: I feel like it probably gives you guys more of an opportunity to focus on the the content in the in the speakers and the and the quality and not worry about the minutia.

00:46:57.690 –> 00:47:07.530
Ian Howells: And that’s basically our only job this time around, which is great that we don’t have to get on the phone and talk about like Wi Fi connectivity in the room and chair covers and nonsense like that.

00:47:08.040 –> 00:47:15.750
Jacob Stoops: was awful. It’s like when you get married, you have to think about things like paying half people cut your cake for you or just

00:47:18.330 –> 00:47:18.840
Jacob Stoops: God

00:47:19.530 –> 00:47:20.340
Jeff Louella: It was a wedding planner.

00:47:20.970 –> 00:47:21.780
Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly.

00:47:21.900 –> 00:47:23.220
Ian Howells: Right, same, same idea you

00:47:23.460 –> 00:47:30.660
Jeff Louella: Know, I mean, it’s funny, thinking of the same way. So I used to run a homebrew club and we started off and it was

00:47:31.380 –> 00:47:43.290
Jeff Louella: Kind of out of just wanting to meet people in the industry. Next thing I know, we have like 300 members and like, I’m just, I ain’t got overwhelming for me to an extent, especially since I at that time recently had twins.

00:47:44.220 –> 00:47:49.650
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, adds a little, you know, cramped to going okay I’m going out drinking from a with a bunch of guys

00:47:51.510 –> 00:47:52.080
Jacob Stoops: With my kids.

00:47:53.190 –> 00:47:58.800
Jeff Louella: But, uh, but it was like everything they’re just setting it up. And that was just like one night a month and like I

00:47:59.100 –> 00:48:09.030
Jeff Louella: But I always did it kind of like this podcast right we we always wanted to have a good guest. So I was always trying to get like head brewers for all the local breweries and in Philadelphia, that time.

00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:15.510
Jeff Louella: Which there were a bunch and we would come in. We’ve talked about brewing have them like how that kind of like this podcast, how they got into it because

00:48:15.960 –> 00:48:24.690
Jeff Louella: As a home brewer, like a lot of people have dreams that open up their own brewery one day and real brewers will talk you out of it. They’re like, hey, do you want to be.

00:48:26.340 –> 00:48:33.870
Jeff Louella: Do you want to actually be a janitor because 99% where you are when you’re abroad because brewing beer is 5% of actually owning a brewery so

00:48:34.650 –> 00:48:39.450
Jeff Louella: But it was interesting that way. And I always want to being part of SEO grill.

00:48:40.230 –> 00:48:49.380
Jeff Louella: Like I kind of now being in Atlanta. Like, we really don’t have that close connection and I’d love to be able to like build one down here and I just know the amount of work. It’s going to take

00:48:49.830 –> 00:48:56.670
Jeff Louella: And, and, you know, I couldn’t imagine trying to actually have like 5000 people come in for a conference and how much work that actually takes

00:48:58.590 –> 00:48:59.460
Ian Howells: Yeah, it’s

00:49:00.540 –> 00:49:01.740
Ian Howells: It’s funny, like the

00:49:03.240 –> 00:49:15.960
Ian Howells: The finding good speakers and getting people to come and talk and like the logistics of that actually isn’t hard. The hardest part is when you get down to like we can have five

00:49:16.500 –> 00:49:27.360
Ian Howells: Who are the five people that we think are going to get on stage and like deliver something new that hasn’t been rehashed at 50 other conferences already right and so

00:49:28.140 –> 00:49:37.440
Ian Howells: And that’s the like the hard part on the, the speaker side, right, I think, thankfully, we’re in a community where like, generally, people are looking to

00:49:38.040 –> 00:49:49.380
Ian Howells: To share and talk about the stuff that they we, you know, have learned over the years, I think, you know, Nick Matt and I fortunate that we’re connected to

00:49:49.980 –> 00:50:02.790
Ian Howells: Folks like Jon Cooper, who generally don’t do the conference speaking thing like he’s not out there that’s an accent se es every season, you know, given it is same presentation over and over again.

00:50:03.840 –> 00:50:15.600
Ian Howells: But when we hit him up and we’re like, hey, we’re bringing a conference basically to your backyard, you’d like two hours away. Do you want to come speak like he’ll say yes and come to it.

00:50:15.600 –> 00:50:16.560
Ian Howells: So I think we’re

00:50:16.620 –> 00:50:31.140
Ian Howells: fortunate in that respect to it’s really just all the the minutia of like the actual logistical of event planning portion of it. That’s the hard part. And like I said, hiring a pro to take that weight off of our shoulders is

00:50:32.190 –> 00:50:32.790
Ian Howells: Amazing.

00:50:33.870 –> 00:50:34.350
It’s awesome.

00:50:35.910 –> 00:50:36.630
Jacob Stoops: So Jeff, what’s

00:50:38.130 –> 00:50:48.090
Jeff Louella: Cool. So it wasn’t really any major I’m going to say news is sweet, but there’s a bunch of little things. And a lot of times you know NEWS TODAY IS LIKE WHEN JOHN MUELLER says something

00:50:49.380 –> 00:50:57.180
Jeff Louella: So there was a lot of that because of his, his little town hall things that he runs, there were. So one of the big things.

00:50:57.930 –> 00:51:06.390
Jeff Louella: Was, you know, search engines get as search engines get better at intent, he basically said like keyword research is not going to go away, which

00:51:07.170 –> 00:51:17.670
Jeff Louella: You know, I look at it all as as much as Google comes out with Burt and all these different machine learnings. It is really based off the data that you’re giving it and that data is content.

00:51:18.630 –> 00:51:23.910
Jeff Louella: And, you know, knowing what search engines. You know what people are typing. It’s still always going to be important.

00:51:25.620 –> 00:51:30.660
Jeff Louella: And even I know like having different affiliate sites out there like and being very nice like

00:51:31.320 –> 00:51:38.340
Jeff Louella: Doing that keyword research are doing that, like research and gentleness, a keyword in an industry is ultra important to be able to

00:51:38.790 –> 00:51:53.430
Jeff Louella: Like if you’re going to start a site on something where no one is searching. There’s no nothing about it. Like, what’s the point of doing that right so so research is super important. I don’t know. I mean, I guess that it’s probably not much to go deeper into that one. But it seems like

00:51:55.500 –> 00:52:05.790
Jacob Stoops: This is where a yellow, yellow about things. So, so if you’re looking at. And this is an article on search engine roundtable THIS WEEK FROM WHAT IS IT THE 10th. It’s from yesterday. Yeah.

00:52:06.180 –> 00:52:12.540
Jacob Stoops: This so John’s response didn’t just come out of the blue. Right. It came in response because it’s

00:52:13.020 –> 00:52:24.690
Jacob Stoops: Beginning of 2020 so everybody’s making their big 2020 predictions. I’m Rick debut. Debut I doubt i’m pronouncing his name wrong and I’m and I’m going to go on record as saying that

00:52:25.140 –> 00:52:43.140
Jacob Stoops: This guy is probably way smarter than me. So maybe I have no fucking clue what I’m talking about. But he is. He is the person in charge of beings overall course search team and he is has essentially predicted predicted that this is the year that keyword research becomes obsolete.

00:52:43.680 –> 00:52:44.850
Jeff Louella: Which it’s coming.

00:52:44.880 –> 00:52:58.710
Jacob Stoops: And it’s just funny. The difference between what people have been you’re saying what people Google are saying and I agree with Jeff and I will say there. I wish there would be more times where we have disagreements, but we seem to be like

00:53:00.090 –> 00:53:12.600
Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand how researching and understanding if the data is available, what people are searching for when that becomes obsolete, like, in what way just because search engines are better.

00:53:13.200 –> 00:53:21.840
Jacob Stoops: At surfacing up a matching content to the particular queries like, Why the hell, wouldn’t we want to know what people are searching for, like, that’s

00:53:22.560 –> 00:53:30.990
Jacob Stoops: Data. Like, why wouldn’t we want that data. Why would we stop looking for that data, all of a sudden, just because search engines are good at matching. It just doesn’t make any freakin sense and it makes me wonder where the

00:53:31.320 –> 00:53:38.340
Jacob Stoops: Where the hell is their head at on the big side that they’re like coming out and saying stupid stuff like this. So I don’t know.

00:53:38.670 –> 00:53:40.200
Ian Howells: Well, I mean what smart.

00:53:40.320 –> 00:53:58.590
Ian Howells: smart decisions on search from bang would be a whole new frontier for us right so I you know bad takes coming from the big team is not something that expands incredible surprising here. Enjoy your 3% market share and continue with your hot takes, I guess.

00:53:58.950 –> 00:54:03.750
Jeff Louella: Yeah now. And it’s funny because there’s another news article out there about being loses out to duck, duck, go.

00:54:04.800 –> 00:54:06.900
Jeff Louella: In Google’s new kind of Android.

00:54:07.920 –> 00:54:11.700
Jeff Louella: They came out of, like, a search ballot and asks countries in Europe, because they’ve

00:54:12.630 –> 00:54:18.690
Jeff Louella: They got sued. You know that because they promote Google on Android devices, you know, makes sense that they would do that but

00:54:19.320 –> 00:54:30.120
Jeff Louella: You know, it also makes sense that that’s kind of, you know, playing a little bit of monopoly, so they they put out a ballot to people in different countries through the EU or what search engines. They want listed

00:54:30.750 –> 00:54:47.280
Jeff Louella: At like that you can change to besides Google. So the idea is like Google is probably going to be default, but if you want to change it. What ones get listed on there. And for most of Europe DuckDuckGo is well actually DuckDuckGo is number two, and every you country.

00:54:48.630 –> 00:55:00.990
Jeff Louella: And being is only in a certain amount of info.com and Queen and privacy Waller all before being so the only one that being kind of beat out DuckDuckGo

00:55:01.290 –> 00:55:06.540
Jeff Louella: Or any of the other ones was in the United Kingdom and we know everything with Brexit. Now it’s a

00:55:07.050 –> 00:55:20.460
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those things where it’s like every other country, you know, Italy, Lithuania, Iceland, Greece, everyone picked up. Don’t go in there. I’m not saying there’s the writing on the wall for being or anything like that, because being is is

00:55:21.480 –> 00:55:29.640
Jeff Louella: It’s funny because we compare them to Google, which is like 90% of everything well being, is it can the rest of world is still a leader to some of that but

00:55:30.210 –> 00:55:36.810
Jeff Louella: It is an interesting approach. What’s going on these days and DuckDuckGo is really pushing privacy, which I think is

00:55:37.560 –> 00:55:44.370
Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I tried to stop using Google and use duck, duck, go for a couple months and then when I switch back to Google. I was like,

00:55:44.790 –> 00:55:55.230
Jeff Louella: Oh, all these things like complain about as an SEO, like, as a user, I are actually really good. It’s like, you know, pushes my 10 blue links down to the bottom like I missed that. DuckDuckGo does not have that so

00:55:56.640 –> 00:56:01.200
Jacob Stoops: I will say I like what DuckDuckGoes trying to do. I like their style.

00:56:01.620 –> 00:56:03.870
Jeff Louella: But when a duck, duck go shirt on. Yeah.

00:56:03.900 –> 00:56:05.640
Jacob Stoops: Right. Oh, you do have a duck, duck, go.

00:56:07.200 –> 00:56:09.990
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know where you would purchase such a thing. Maybe on affiliate site.

00:56:10.020 –> 00:56:10.740
Jeff Louella: On DuckDuckGo

00:56:12.240 –> 00:56:18.300
Jacob Stoops: But, um, I think the big advantage that being still has is their

00:56:18.870 –> 00:56:30.960
Jacob Stoops: inroads into other markets, similar to Google, like Google builds phones Google Now builds computers. Google does all kinds of shit. Well guess what, so does Microsoft. They have a massive browser with a lot of people still using it.

00:56:31.320 –> 00:56:46.200
Jacob Stoops: They do computers. They do all kinds of stuff. And guess what they’re going to make you use Bing on all of those things. It’s actually surprising, given the amount of users that they have that being isn’t representing representing more of a marketing share but that’s, I think,

00:56:46.770 –> 00:56:57.360
Jacob Stoops: Because Google has basically become so so big that they’re almost a verb. Now I don’t search something I Google it. I don’t DuckDuckGo it I don’t bring it I Google it. So,

00:56:58.020 –> 00:57:11.040
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, that’s it’s, it’s interesting. I don’t know if DuckDuckGo can ever overcome. You know, the advantages that those other two big players have with respect to the business, but I do like their style and I like their tenacity.

00:57:11.730 –> 00:57:19.350
Jeff Louella: And I don’t think their goal is to be bigger than Google, right, because I’m guessing there. I feel they’re pulling stuff in from Google. I don’t know exactly how they get the result.

00:57:19.380 –> 00:57:20.550
Jacob Stoops: Like the anti Google

00:57:21.300 –> 00:57:30.900
Jeff Louella: Yes. And there’s gonna always be a group of people who will enjoy that. Right. So as Google gets bigger and, you know, evil or

00:57:31.830 –> 00:57:43.050
Jeff Louella: And like basically the benefits of them sharing all my data between all the tools is convenient to some things, but some people don’t want all that data shared so DuckDuckGo would be great for that. So,

00:57:44.580 –> 00:57:52.650
Jacob Stoops: We, who is Sundar Pichai is he basically Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies. Is that is that who he is now.

00:57:53.940 –> 00:57:54.810
That the

00:57:56.070 –> 00:57:57.210
Jacob Stoops: CEO of Google, I think.

00:57:57.210 –> 00:57:57.570
Jeff Louella: That

00:57:57.690 –> 00:58:08.340
Jacob Stoops: Those missions is don’t be evil, but I feel like increasingly they’re becoming they’re becoming a little bit more evil, just like Facebook. And I just wonder if maybe Dr. Evil running both of those.

00:58:10.170 –> 00:58:19.650
Jeff Louella: You know, I feel, Google. It’s when you have so much data. Right. It’s like, there are certain like they have more data than anyone probably in the whole world right now and it’s

00:58:20.070 –> 00:58:27.870
Jeff Louella: Just being able to make things more convenient kind of seems evil. I remember when they started running ads inside of Gmail and part of it was like

00:58:28.500 –> 00:58:34.080
Jeff Louella: There would be a something that would read your email. So that would give you an ad based off the content inside of your email.

00:58:34.440 –> 00:58:40.920
Jeff Louella: And the world flipped basically like you’re reading my emails and it’s, you know, just like, shut it off right now but Alexa

00:58:41.910 –> 00:58:55.680
Jeff Louella: You know, when we, you know, they’re always listening, but like, are they fully listening or they just listening for the word Alexa, I think some people jump on the evil thing very quickly does not necessarily. I don’t think they’re evil, but I also think that

00:58:57.030 –> 00:59:07.980
Jeff Louella: They can be very easily. Right, and I think they remove that whole, don’t be evil thing out of there. Yeah, so it’s those where we feel you’re not you’re not evil, but you’re also not

00:59:08.760 –> 00:59:17.190
Jeff Louella: You know it, you’re not planting trees where if you search that like other people are doing right and and things like that. So they are definitely a for profit company.

00:59:17.880 –> 00:59:21.420
Jacob Stoops: They start building a Death Star. Then I’m going to be really well.

00:59:21.420 –> 00:59:22.740
Ian Howells: Yeah face fours.

00:59:22.800 –> 00:59:23.550
It’s coming better

00:59:24.630 –> 00:59:29.550
Jeff Louella: Well, when they, when they bought Boston Dynamics right and it’s like they have AI and then they have robot.

00:59:30.630 –> 00:59:39.690
Jeff Louella: It would. That’s where I kind of got, like, oh, but then they sold off Boston Dynamics, but they still, it’s a little creepy, because their AI stuff and putting it in those robot dogs.

00:59:40.080 –> 00:59:44.190
Jeff Louella: Is like things in my dreams and I get like not my dreams my nightmares.

00:59:44.970 –> 00:59:45.990
Jacob Stoops: Jetsons or

00:59:46.650 –> 00:59:51.630
Jeff Louella: One of the two self driving cars like they’re everywhere. They’re doing a lot of things and it’s. To me, it’s

00:59:52.560 –> 01:00:02.310
Jeff Louella: Great because it’s pushing humanity forward to an extent it’s merging us with machines. So we all become cyborgs. But I just don’t want to, like, you know, have all my brain power, run by Google right now so

01:00:03.210 –> 01:00:07.620
Ian Howells: I don’t know, I’m ready to be a cyborg man my hairline is garbage, my eyes are trash.

01:00:07.620 –> 01:00:11.220
Ian Howells: Bring bring out and cybernetics. I am. I’m here for I’m. Let’s do this.

01:00:12.930 –> 01:00:21.600
Jeff Louella: I am also not the singularity is one of those things where it’s it’s coming. And, you know, if it can make me live. I always wanted to be bit by a vampire.

01:00:22.050 –> 01:00:35.190
Jeff Louella: So that can live forever and see like where technology goes. So if I can be on a cyborg. And the same thing happens. I think another way of doing it. The Vampire part like I’m old involved. Like, I don’t want to be a vampire forever right now.

01:00:36.990 –> 01:00:39.240
Ian Howells: I mean like a half here in the gym first before I

01:00:41.640 –> 01:00:43.050
Jeff Louella: Don’t want to be the old vampire at the

01:00:44.040 –> 01:00:46.920
Jacob Stoops: Subconscious and then by be. Oh my god.

01:00:48.090 –> 01:00:48.630
Jacob Stoops: Okay.

01:00:49.230 –> 01:00:58.200
Jacob Stoops: So I want to do a time check. Um, let’s move into phase three, and we’re going to deep dive into affiliate sites and I’m just gonna, I’m just going to

01:00:58.650 –> 01:01:06.030
Jacob Stoops: Caveat this by saying this is one of those places in SEO. It’s such a broad area that

01:01:06.750 –> 01:01:18.300
Jacob Stoops: You should have a base in everything but I feel like the longer that this in the older that this industry gets, the more opportunities that there are to specialize in the chances of you not

01:01:19.200 –> 01:01:33.240
Jacob Stoops: knowing everything is is is high, Python, that’s something I have no freakin clue what it is and I’m going to say affiliate sites, we’re going to talk about it, but I have. I’ve never done it. I have no clue. Not a damn clue.

01:01:33.870 –> 01:01:49.890
Jacob Stoops: What I’m, what I’m doing. So I’m going to rely on you as an expert and Jeff you as an expert to guide me through what’s it like what do you need to think about if you’re in 2020 and you’re trying to run an affiliate strategy.

01:01:51.600 –> 01:01:53.100
Ian Howells: So I think there’s

01:01:54.510 –> 01:02:01.830
Ian Howells: There’s probably two two different paths to to answering. This one is for folks that are maybe

01:02:02.520 –> 01:02:15.840
Ian Howells: Either newer in their career or have been in SEO or digital marketing PR bit in like an agency setting where you’re in, like you mentioned, a very specialized function and then there’s folks that are kind of

01:02:16.980 –> 01:02:25.260
Ian Howells: I guess further in their career, for lack of a better explanation and kind of deeper in their knowledge already for the new folks.

01:02:26.340 –> 01:02:32.550
Ian Howells: It’s great. And I recommend it for everybody that’s working at an SEO agency in that capacity.

01:02:33.150 –> 01:02:36.240
Ian Howells: Because you have to think about everything right like now.

01:02:36.540 –> 01:02:50.160
Ian Howells: The, the horseshit with oh the client will do this and like their pricing is higher, the content that competitors. So like, that’s why they’re not making money. And, you know, on and on and on and on every excuse is gone, right, like it’s just you.

01:02:50.700 –> 01:02:55.770
Ian Howells: And typically WordPress right like it’s you and a content management system and a domain.

01:02:56.160 –> 01:03:12.120
Ian Howells: And if it flops. It’s because of you. And if it does. Well, it’s because you did good things, right. So it kind of is a bit of a put up or shut up for for folks to put themselves into which is great because that’s when you learn stuff that you didn’t know

01:03:12.120 –> 01:03:12.840
Ian Howells: Before

01:03:12.900 –> 01:03:19.620
Ian Howells: Right, you have to get better at pre selling and copywriting otherwise you’re going to get traffic and it’s not going to convert

01:03:19.920 –> 01:03:22.830
Ian Howells: You have to get better at keyword research and planning.

01:03:23.130 –> 01:03:29.880
Ian Howells: Because you’re probably a small new site. So you’ve really got to pick your battles for what you’re going to try and go do

01:03:30.060 –> 01:03:38.820
Ian Howells: Because you’re not going to go outrank the wire cutter or credit cards calm for you know best, small business credit cards or something like that. Right.

01:03:39.210 –> 01:03:53.070
Ian Howells: So it kind of top to bottom through the process forces you to get better at each piece because everything has to work or the end result is not going to happen. Right. And again,

01:03:53.520 –> 01:04:03.360
Ian Howells: You’re the only reason right you you are the lever on every step of that process. So I think it’s a really good thing for for folks to do

01:04:03.780 –> 01:04:09.270
Ian Howells: And then even just taking the like you should want to learn and get better and do new things out of it.

01:04:09.720 –> 01:04:18.930
Ian Howells: It makes you absurdly employable. Right. Like if you are a junior SEO in your first gig and an agency and you’re 12 to 24 months out of school, call it

01:04:19.650 –> 01:04:30.510
Ian Howells: building your own site and putting that on your resume, like, hey, I made this website. It ranks for, you know, a few hundred keywords and gets 1000 visits a month and makes me some money.

01:04:30.810 –> 01:04:39.270
Ian Howells: Your resume is immediately at the top of the pile like as somebody who was a hiring manager at a large mid cap public company.

01:04:40.230 –> 01:04:53.730
Ian Howells: There are like so many resumes come in when we put out a job posting will get like 300 resumes. Right. And I had to get the recruiting team like three things to look for, like, if you see resumes with any of these three things.

01:04:54.840 –> 01:04:59.310
Ian Howells: shortlist like those are the resumes that I want to see in one is they built their own website.

01:04:59.850 –> 01:05:06.060
Ian Howells: Like that just immediately gets you through the hundreds of other resumes into the front of the line.

01:05:06.480 –> 01:05:11.610
Ian Howells: It’s going to get you on the phone. And then if you barf all over yourself on the phone like that’s the end of the road, but

01:05:11.940 –> 01:05:23.370
Ian Howells: You know, if nothing else, like if you’re applying for jobs and not getting a call back as an SEO and you haven’t built your own website and put it on your resume. That’s like the biggest lever. I think you can can pull

01:05:24.540 –> 01:05:26.280
Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s funny because I

01:05:27.540 –> 01:05:33.660
Jeff Louella: I totally the same beliefs and things like that and I you started off building websites myself started

01:05:34.470 –> 01:05:46.380
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I was a DJ went to promote promote myself as a DJ built websites doing that I learned how to use like real audio back then to do streaming. Unfortunately, everybody had like 14 four modem at that time and if

01:05:47.820 –> 01:05:48.660
Jeff Louella: I was a little early, and

01:05:49.680 –> 01:05:50.400
Ian Howells: Just early

01:05:50.820 –> 01:05:58.980
Jeff Louella: Exactly. And then, so things like that when great. But actually when I when I met you and we started, you know, I started learning more about affiliates self.

01:05:59.400 –> 01:06:09.510
Jeff Louella: I’m trying to start up those niche affiliate sites. I think I started one called like barbecue pit man calm and I was selling, you know, talking about barbecue grills on there and

01:06:09.900 –> 01:06:16.200
Jeff Louella: It actually I had a couple different ones. I had one about music, because I love music realized that music wasn’t a great affiliate

01:06:16.590 –> 01:06:32.190
Jeff Louella: You know area because CDs. At the time, like you would get like a nickel or dime off of it while an $800 barbecue grill, you know, and if you’re using Amazon affiliates, you’re getting like 7% so it’s like a, you know, same amount a lot more money and

01:06:33.330 –> 01:06:45.570
Jeff Louella: You know, and then of course you get a little greedy. Sometimes when you start getting some traffic and you start getting a little more spammy to get that more traffic and then eventually, Google, you know, get you get you get on their shortlist, and then they

01:06:46.650 –> 01:06:56.370
Jeff Louella: Then you get banned from it and I’ve learned a lot about that too. So actually, for me, kind of making affiliate site being a little more spammy on it learned a lot more about penalties.

01:06:56.610 –> 01:07:05.130
Jeff Louella: And I did learn a lot about things there. And I say that, you know, when I am interviewing somebody I always say, like, hey, you make a website, even people on my team.

01:07:05.550 –> 01:07:13.650
Jeff Louella: That don’t have like even if you don’t build the website from scratch. But just like the art of getting traffic to your site and natural is like is important and

01:07:15.330 –> 01:07:23.610
Jeff Louella: Doing it to incentivize like hey I I made money off of this now gives me more the incentive to actually try to make it even better.

01:07:24.030 –> 01:07:30.240
Jeff Louella: And that’s kind of where I feel like affiliates are at a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of good affiliates out there. There’s a lot of bad ones, and I think

01:07:31.080 –> 01:07:38.010
Jeff Louella: The bad affiliates especially what I did with that barbecue site was, you know, did a lot of spinning content and things like that that I’m not proud of but

01:07:38.940 –> 01:07:51.030
Jeff Louella: I think in affiliate world there are the good and bad and I, IT’S KIND OF WHAT I WANT YOU KNOW WHERE MY QUESTION IS GOING TO GO. It’s, um, do you think affiliates have a bad like SEO. In general, they might have a bad name and marketing industries because SEO.

01:07:51.120 –> 01:08:01.620
Jeff Louella: Or spam your overall, you know, not me, of course. But other people and in the SEO world there’s affiliates and affiliates kind of get that that more of the

01:08:02.220 –> 01:08:17.850
Jeff Louella: Black Hat aspect of things. So I think there was a lot of affiliate like black hat networks and syndicate and things like that. So where do you feel like with affiliates like as it getting better or is it actually still a world of spam and junk out there.

01:08:18.390 –> 01:08:21.720
Ian Howells: So I think it’s interesting. There are

01:08:22.980 –> 01:08:32.940
Ian Howells: There are obviously different perspective right on affiliates. I think now within the SEO community. I don’t think affiliate has a bad reputation because like

01:08:33.150 –> 01:08:49.620
Ian Howells: How the hell else are you making money, right, like for people that run their own sites like that’s kind of like, unless you’re just running AdSense or display ads like. And I would argue from the display of that I see they deserve a worse reputation than

01:08:49.680 –> 01:08:51.030
Ian Howells: A lot of affiliate marketing.

01:08:52.320 –> 01:08:59.700
Ian Howells: So I think within the industry, you know, pretty widely accepted. I think you’ll have very differing opinions from

01:09:00.120 –> 01:09:11.250
Ian Howells: When I think back to the GSA commerce days like folks that are in house at an e commerce store will have very different opinions about affiliates based on how their network has gone right so i think

01:09:11.670 –> 01:09:21.930
Ian Howells: Some will basically equate if you’re an in house at an E calm place and like digital marketing is not your thing. You’re a product merchandiser or something, an e commerce store.

01:09:22.410 –> 01:09:35.040
Ian Howells: Your exposure to affiliate marketing is probably heavily dominated by coupon sites. Right. And in that view like through that lens. You probably view them as a parasite right because

01:09:35.340 –> 01:09:42.990
Ian Howells: They just rank for my store name plus coupon or coupons and all these people that I would have gotten any way.

01:09:43.320 –> 01:09:51.090
Ian Howells: Are now clicking through here just to get a promo code to put in. So I’m losing money on the ARV because now they’re all using the 10% coupon.

01:09:51.540 –> 01:10:01.200
Ian Howells: And now I’m paying a whatever five 6% commission to this, you know, parasitic affiliate site at the same time, right. So I think there’s still pockets like that where

01:10:01.440 –> 01:10:09.630
Ian Howells: Because a lens that affiliate marketing to view through can be very specific to certain stuff you can come away with a bad taste in your mouth.

01:10:10.140 –> 01:10:21.450
Ian Howells: I think the the flip side to that would be seen stuff like wire cutter getting bought by the New York Times, right, like the name in the US for news, generally speaking.

01:10:21.900 –> 01:10:37.140
Ian Howells: Buying an Amazon affiliate website for almost 100 million dollars i think is a a good temperature read for life okay yeah affiliates, not a joke and like large companies recognize the value and potential that’s there.

01:10:39.300 –> 01:10:40.740
Jeff Louella: How do you go about and

01:10:40.950 –> 01:10:41.250

01:10:42.840 –> 01:10:49.470
Jeff Louella: Not going to ask what your affiliates are or think that, but how do you go apart like and just figure out how to

01:10:50.160 –> 01:10:54.180
Jeff Louella: Pick an affiliate that you want. So you’re going to go, you want to start a new site.

01:10:54.780 –> 01:11:00.030
Jeff Louella: You go through the process of doing your research and things like that. Like, what are some of those steps in that process to

01:11:00.450 –> 01:11:08.520
Jeff Louella: Pick an industry or find out like information about that industry and whether it’s worth to. It’s a lot of work, you know, to build up a site so

01:11:08.880 –> 01:11:18.150
Jeff Louella: You know you don’t want to go into something like, like I said, with music and realize they have zero like even if someone buys something, you get a dime compared to where you get

01:11:19.590 –> 01:11:24.960
Jeff Louella: To ask yeah yeah right where your poker sites that like when you got $100 each one. Like, that’s awesome. I wish I get $100 a

01:11:26.070 –> 01:11:27.600
Jeff Louella: Click the link on my website right so

01:11:27.840 –> 01:11:38.640
Ian Howells: So there I think to two ways. Basically the framework that I use for picking affiliate spots three I line already and backtrack and so the first way would be

01:11:39.210 –> 01:11:46.080
Ian Howells: An industry that I already know is high volume and high dollar right so home security being a good example. I got

01:11:46.470 –> 01:11:54.690
Ian Howells: Cheated On that one because I got exposure to home security when I was at Red ventures. They were. And I think still are a very large ADT dealer.

01:11:55.470 –> 01:12:08.250
Ian Howells: So was able to see firsthand like the amount of volume available in the space and what home security companies are willing to pay out because they’re getting you know that 3040 $50 recurring monthly

01:12:09.390 –> 01:12:20.910
Ian Howells: Purchase with like a 24 month contract. In some cases, right. So, like they’re dealing with real money. So bringing them a customer, it can be very lucrative for you. So what are those kind of large industries.

01:12:21.270 –> 01:12:29.850
Ian Howells: That are going to be around for a long time payouts are really high right those are basically where I make my long term bets like

01:12:29.880 –> 01:12:33.120
Ian Howells: The site is not going to do anything. And it’s first 612

01:12:33.150 –> 01:12:48.780
Ian Howells: Maybe even 18 months, but it’s a iron in the fire that you know I just keep going and the plan is, I’m still going to have this website five years from now, right. So stuff like home security web hosting like those big industries with high dollar payouts

01:12:49.710 –> 01:13:00.630
Ian Howells: The second would be pockets where I see week competition that generally speaking funnel to Amazon, right. So basically anything you can buy on the internet you can buy on Amazon.

01:13:01.200 –> 01:13:06.600
Ian Howells: The Commission structures there. You know what it is, the tracking is there, like, there’s not a lot of unknowns.

01:13:07.020 –> 01:13:18.360
Ian Howells: All you really have to be able to do is the keyword and competitive research and you’re good to go. Like I farm out all the content production I farm on a lot of the link production. So at that point, it’s just like a capital.

01:13:20.490 –> 01:13:27.060
Ian Howells: Application game of, like, where am I going to put funding and you know how, how big of a bet. Am I going to make on each one.

01:13:27.870 –> 01:13:28.320

01:13:29.580 –> 01:13:31.680
Jacob Stoops: You said keyword research is still relevant.

01:13:32.340 –> 01:13:49.860
Ian Howells: I did, I would venture to say for an affiliate, it is arguably the most important thing that you can do because you have to find keywords that not only have volume but have intent and have SERPs that you can crack with whatever site, you’re actually working with alright

01:13:50.040 –> 01:13:51.240
Jacob Stoops: So, suck it being

01:13:53.070 –> 01:13:54.990
Ian Howells: That they’ve been doing that for years already there.

01:13:57.870 –> 01:14:05.910
Ian Howells: And then the, the only other the, the kind of third that I backtracked my two part answer to, and turn it into a three parter.

01:14:06.420 –> 01:14:17.940
Ian Howells: Is just if I either get approached or see an auction for a domain where the price looks right. And then that kind of sends me down the rabbit hole of looking into that industry.

01:14:18.210 –> 01:14:28.140
Ian Howells: Trying to get the scope of how big can this be a trust is really like my go to tool like I’m, you know, aside from when it logs me out, which it does more than

01:14:28.950 –> 01:14:35.490
Ian Howells: I would like, but in general, there’s probably two or three hrs tabs open in my Chrome at all times.

01:14:36.240 –> 01:14:42.090
Ian Howells: Because it is the fastest way to go from like two or three seed keywords to a list of probably 50 keywords.

01:14:42.450 –> 01:14:47.610
Ian Howells: To filtering up. Who are the domains that are kind of owning this space.

01:14:47.910 –> 01:14:52.890
Ian Howells: And then being able to click through right to them and say, okay, they’ve got this many referring domains. They do this much traffic.

01:14:53.130 –> 01:15:03.450
Ian Howells: Let me see where those links come from. Can I replicate that like that becomes like a 20 minute process of being able to size up in industry and have a general gut feeling of

01:15:03.810 –> 01:15:09.660
Ian Howells: I’m way out of my league and there’s no way I’m getting in here. So, like this is either going to be a multi year bet or

01:15:10.050 –> 01:15:24.000
Ian Howells: Oh damn, this looks like there’s something here. There’s people all over, page one that are pretty weak that I feel like you know in six or eight months, I can replicate the mountain quality of content they have and the mountain quality of links that they have. Yeah.

01:15:26.100 –> 01:15:35.490
Jeff Louella: So when you get your, you know, your niche and you you build a site. I am guessing most of time. It’s a WordPress get there. I mean, because it’s just so simple.

01:15:36.150 –> 01:15:44.070
Jeff Louella: There is a lot of, you know, we need lots of content to be able to build that right so I’m guessing. The next kind of approach is

01:15:44.490 –> 01:15:58.110
Jeff Louella: Getting the site structure and start building out content. Is that something you’re writing yourself or is that something you’re kind of going not fiber. But, you know, some other place to get content written and then you just the editorial notes of that.

01:15:58.470 –> 01:16:05.700
Ian Howells: Yep. So thankfully, now I do less than, less than less myself. One of the things I focused on in 2019

01:16:06.510 –> 01:16:11.940
Ian Howells: Was bringing more part time folks on to help me with portions of it, right. So, now, thankfully.

01:16:12.240 –> 01:16:25.170
Ian Howells: I now have a reliable part time person who knows a trance knows how to do keyword research and they can basically build content maps for me. I give them an industry and two or three competitors to look at and they can just go

01:16:25.650 –> 01:16:35.610
Ian Howells: And then come back with a Google Sheet template that I made filled out with what keywords and then I know what pages. Do I need to make. What are the keywords that need to funnel into them.

01:16:36.180 –> 01:16:46.470
Ian Howells: I basically then take those Google Sheets and pass them over to word agents word agents calm and they right now all of my new affiliate content.

01:16:47.250 –> 01:16:48.660
Ian Howells: And so, it all goes to them.

01:16:49.110 –> 01:16:59.970
Ian Howells: The last missing piece I need to fill is then the, hey, we got a Google Drive folder, full of content from word agents, I need all of this in WordPress now and I need the internal links done and blah, blah, blah.

01:17:00.270 –> 01:17:09.540
Ian Howells: That’s the the piece that I’m still kind of rotating through some folks trying to find somebody that I really like that. I’ll continue to work with. But you can kind of

01:17:10.770 –> 01:17:26.340
Ian Howells: D scale each individual portion of the process and have different folks fulfill each part, right, because I am not going to sit here and pick out 800 words about, you know, this camping tent.

01:17:26.430 –> 01:17:37.710
Ian Howells: That and why it’s great. Right. Like there’s people who write for a living, that’s what they want to do. They do that from wherever the hell they want. That’s great word agents just takes care of the content for me now.

01:17:38.430 –> 01:17:40.590
Jeff Louella: You just need Hamlet write you a script and play.

01:17:43.140 –> 01:17:43.500
Ian Howells: Button.

01:17:45.690 –> 01:17:51.570
Jacob Stoops: between him and jr folks to build a search engine or machine learning how to auto produce the content, I bet.

01:17:54.510 –> 01:18:04.530
Jacob Stoops: So Ian on definitely want to thank you for, for your time. We always wrap up, or at least we tried to sometimes we forget and you’ve kind of alluded to, to it.

01:18:05.070 –> 01:18:12.120
Jacob Stoops: To building websites, being a good thing. So I’m going to ask you to maybe provide a different piece of advice, but we always end by saying

01:18:13.020 –> 01:18:24.150
Jacob Stoops: If you were a new SEO you’re you’re fresh out of college or you’re thinking about getting into the industry literally today this moment, what would be the advice that you would give to that person.

01:18:26.970 –> 01:18:33.510
Ian Howells: The, the biggie is building your own site. But you said that’s not that’s not an answer. I can do is I’ll take that off the table. I would

01:18:34.560 –> 01:18:42.990
Ian Howells: If I was still in college. I would look to get an internship at an agency. And if I had just graduated, I would do.

01:18:43.920 –> 01:18:56.760
Ian Howells: Everything that I could to make myself marketable on paper to get an interview at an agency and get a junior level role I hate on the agency model a lot. And there’s a bunch there that I don’t like.

01:18:57.240 –> 01:19:13.020
Ian Howells: But it is the fastest way to get in somewhere see a bunch of stuff happen and learn, kind of as you as you do. And I think starting out your career as a junior person in house somewhere.

01:19:13.830 –> 01:19:22.260
Ian Howells: I think kind of insulate to a little too much into the specific tech stack and the specific goals and like how monetization happens

01:19:22.560 –> 01:19:26.460
Ian Howells: You get a little bit pigeonholed into one way of doing things.

01:19:26.730 –> 01:19:35.460
Ian Howells: Whereas generally at an agency, you’re going to get exposed to multiple different CMS and platforms, you’re going to get exposed to different kinds of people. And if you’re going to be successful.

01:19:35.730 –> 01:19:47.250
Ian Howells: Have to figure out how to talk to clients and other stakeholders to actually get work done. There are a lot of skills that you can hone working in an agency, and I think it’s a good

01:19:47.700 –> 01:19:54.990
Ian Howells: Spot for somebody to spend their first call a two to three years in the digital marketing world doing that work.

01:19:55.830 –> 01:20:06.960
Jacob Stoops: Speaking of agencies Jeff and I worked for one search discovery. So if you are one of those people looking and coming out of college we do college hires every single year.

01:20:07.440 –> 01:20:20.730
Jacob Stoops: And in Ian’s right it is really great experience. You get to work across multiple verticals with a lot of different people that know a lot of different things, especially at search discovery. So I don’t want this podcast to be just like a

01:20:21.570 –> 01:20:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Major plug, but come work with us. We’d love to work with you and

01:20:25.710 –> 01:20:26.490
Jeff Louella: Anyways, rent.

01:20:26.970 –> 01:20:27.270

01:20:28.530 –> 01:20:28.920
Ian Howells: Yes.

01:20:28.950 –> 01:20:33.240
Jacob Stoops: Yes, let’s yell about things in person. So he and where can people find you.

01:20:35.100 –> 01:20:50.310
Ian Howells: So on Twitter, just at Ian Howells Real original and creative with the Twitter handle there otherwise I don’t like I’m the worst solo SEO in the world. Like, I don’t have

01:20:50.880 –> 01:21:04.560
Ian Howells: A website that like advertises my service. I think I NH media com is literally a logo lucky pixel calm is the BBA that I do my consulting on it’s again a logo on on the homepage. And that’s it. There’s not even a contact form.

01:21:05.220 –> 01:21:18.720
Ian Howells: And so really Twitter and inside Traffic Think Tank are like the two places that I hang out and network with with people in the industry. So Traffic Think Tank calm and Twitter at Ian’s house would be the best bet.

01:21:19.680 –> 01:21:32.610
Jacob Stoops: Awesome. I’ll say it again if you want to go to one of the best conferences about building traffic that is going on right now. Go to Traffic Think Tank calm, forward slash live

01:21:33.150 –> 01:21:46.320
Jacob Stoops: The event, again, is in Miami. So nice warm sunny place that most people want to go and it is on May 16 Ian I don’t know how many like if you guys restrict the number of tickets. But how many, how many tickets are left left at this moment.

01:21:46.440 –> 01:21:58.170
Ian Howells: We are, I think, right now we’re 64 65% sold. So there’s like 120 spots left, something like that. Cool.

01:21:58.530 –> 01:22:04.740
Jacob Stoops: Alright, so you hear that there are spots left this episode is going to release on on the following Monday we record ahead so

01:22:05.820 –> 01:22:10.980
Jacob Stoops: I believe that they might there might still be some spots left by that time, that’s only a couple of days from now. But, uh,

01:22:11.250 –> 01:22:26.880
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, go and go and buy a ticket if you want to meet some really, really great people and attend to, really, really awesome about. But otherwise, em, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your time. Really appreciate the candor candor candor. Yeah.

01:22:27.930 –> 01:22:28.740
Jacob Stoops: That’s awkward. That’s

01:22:29.820 –> 01:22:31.020
Jeff Louella: The Rings Kelly appreciate

01:22:32.520 –> 01:22:33.390
Jacob Stoops: It was a great discussion.

01:22:33.810 –> 01:22:37.740
Ian Howells: Now awesome I fun. Thanks for having me guess. Awesome. Thank you.running 

#35: Sarah McDowell

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Sarah McDowell, SEO Specialist at LikeMind Media and Co-Host of the SEO SAS Podcast, a podcast that delves into individual SEO issues each week.

We discuss how she went from a background in dance to a digital marketing role focused on link building and then eventually into a career in SEO, her experiences going between agencies and in-house roles, founding her own business and eventually shutting it down, the challenges and psychology of getting stuff implemented, and more.

In addition, we cover and share our perspective on a recent SEO “kerfuffle” around the subject of hiring for SEO and interview questions which stems from a tweet put out by Bill Hartzer which caused a few side-eyes in the industry (here, here, here).

And to round out this episode, we dive deep into what went into founding her podcast, and we share our experiences on what it’s like to run an SEO podcast, as well as some of the behind-the-scenes work that goes into making a podcast come to life.

Episode Transcript

00:00:01.199 –> 00:00:11.550
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are here for another episode of the Page 2 Podcast. Hi, Jeff. How’s it going?

00:00:12.000 –> 00:00:13.500
Jeff Louella: It’s going well. How you doing?

00:00:13.799 –> 00:00:16.770
Jacob Stoops: That’s, I feel like our bit, Jeff. You’ve got it. You’ve got to come like…

00:00:16.830 –> 00:00:17.730
Jeff Louella: I gotta come stronger.

00:00:18.029 –> 00:00:22.440
Jacob Stoops: Well no, you come the same way every week and I feel like you got

00:00:22.440 –> 00:00:22.680
Jacob Stoops: To like keep

00:00:22.980 –> 00:00:32.670
Jacob Stoops: me on my toes in terms of I’m not very good at figuring out a great way to introduce it’s you. Maybe I’ll just do the introductions and you introduce me

00:00:33.120 –> 00:00:38.520
Jeff Louella: We’ve got this. Come up with my own recorded drop and it’ll be like a mega like coming soon.

00:00:41.010 –> 00:00:56.430
Jacob Stoops: And we also have as a guest from across the pond Sarah McDowell, SEO specialist at LikeMind Media, and you might better know her as the host of the SEO SAS podcast. How’s it going, Sarah.

00:00:57.420 –> 00:01:02.910
Sarah McDowell: I am thrilled to be on your podcast. So things are going really well for me. How about you guys?

00:01:03.750 –> 00:01:18.390
Jacob Stoops: Pretty good, pretty good. It’s getting as my kids are reminded we’re about two weeks away from from Christmas and Christmas time and holiday time in agency world is. It’s crazy, man. It’s, it’s been crazy

00:01:18.960 –> 00:01:21.210
Jeff Louella: It’s crazy that it just dies. Yeah.

00:01:21.930 –> 00:01:23.910
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. And everybody goes on PTO

00:01:24.840 –> 00:01:39.180
Sarah McDowell: See, for me it squeeze in the same amount of work that needs to be done, but in less time. So obviously, instead of I’ve only really got two and a half weeks to still do all the jobs that I need to do. So it’s a bit of a headache, but yeah.

00:01:39.780 –> 00:01:45.750
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s the life we live, it’s nice to have another podcaster on with us.

00:01:46.770 –> 00:01:49.530
Sarah McDowell: Likewise, it’s nice to talk to a fellow podcaster,

00:01:50.550 –> 00:01:51.060
Sarah McDowell: Is

00:01:51.840 –> 00:01:56.370
Jacob Stoops: Before we jumped on that this was the first podcast where you’ve actually been a guest.

00:01:56.730 –> 00:02:01.800
Sarah McDowell: Yes, so please be kind and please be gentle with me. Haha.

00:02:02.520 –> 00:02:05.220
Jacob Stoops: That’s what the that’s what the last people said, I’m wondering if we’re

00:02:06.600 –> 00:02:07.980
A reputation. That’s funny.

00:02:10.650 –> 00:02:20.370
Sarah McDowell: Cuz I’ve been listening to your podcasts and yeah, I’ve just got em. It’s a good one. So one night me as a guest. I want to do well. So, yes, but

00:02:20.700 –> 00:02:31.590
Sarah McDowell: It’s my first time and but after today we have been invited to be on another one. So I think so and but yeah it’s weird to not have control of the podcast, I’m not gonna lie.

00:02:33.150 –> 00:02:39.540
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, if you’re if you’re a can. And I’m not saying you’re a control freak. But if you are a control freak. This is probably really difficult.

00:02:42.660 –> 00:02:45.630
Sarah McDowell: Patient comfortable now. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.

00:02:45.870 –> 00:03:02.010
Jacob Stoops: So I especially with with your podcast. Obviously, I, I feel like the the way that we booked guests has been very, very organic in terms of like

00:03:02.910 –> 00:03:16.980
Jacob Stoops: There are people that are known. I feel like commodities and have been for some time in the industry and, and when I sat down, about a year ago and tried to figure out, okay, like what do I want to do with the podcast, who do I want on

00:03:18.420 –> 00:03:26.370
Jacob Stoops: In even this year there are definitely names that I feel like they come up and all the conferences like the you, you know, you can bet you could almost like

00:03:26.970 –> 00:03:36.870
Jacob Stoops: Put mug shots or whatever, whatever. And but one of the other things that has happened that I’ve noticed and why I say it’s very organic and not really

00:03:37.350 –> 00:03:51.030
Jacob Stoops: I don’t really think the way that we put guests is stale is if you’re if you’re following SEO on the on the Twitter. I feel like especially recently there been a lot of newer people that have come across my

00:03:51.810 –> 00:03:59.400
Jacob Stoops: Feed that I have found very interesting and when I find that to be the case. I say, I think I want to talk to them.

00:04:00.120 –> 00:04:07.200
Jacob Stoops: And you happen to be to be one of those people that I would say is a little bit and I don’t know how long you’ve been doing this. We’ll get into

00:04:07.560 –> 00:04:20.010
Jacob Stoops: Into that. But as far as it relates to me, noticing your presence on Twitter. Um, I would say that’s been more more recent and especially because you’re a fellow podcaster, I was like, I really think it would be great.

00:04:20.670 –> 00:04:29.400
Jacob Stoops: TO HAVE YOU ON so that’s that’s why you’re here and you were gracious enough to say yes and to to come on and I think we’re really interested to hear your story.

00:04:30.570 –> 00:04:44.490
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so, um, how do I start. That’s the question. And so, I mean, I, I sort of fell into SEO to be to be completely honest, so I sorry

00:04:45.000 –> 00:04:46.050
Jacob Stoops: Yes. Does everybody

00:04:46.830 –> 00:04:55.830
Sarah McDowell: Well, actually, I got a degree and dancing and realized that it was far too competitive and the best. I was better at African

00:04:56.250 –> 00:05:00.150
Sarah McDowell: And then any of the principal and then I couldn’t make a living. So I was like, right, what can I do

00:05:00.510 –> 00:05:19.740
Sarah McDowell: And I basically applied for a reception role as an SEO company that had been filled but they wanted to grow their link building team. So that’s where I started. And that was 2012, I believe. And so how many years ago. Is that, is that my six or seven. I’m not very good with math.

00:05:23.850 –> 00:05:33.660
Sarah McDowell: And so, so yes and i i was working in that agency for a good few years and I learned everything on the job. So I started from the bottom sort of link building

00:05:34.110 –> 00:05:43.800
Sarah McDowell: And and then I did content and content outreach and I just was there for about four years and I grew in the company sort of thing.

00:05:44.220 –> 00:05:57.840
Sarah McDowell: And then after been there for about four years. I then went to work in house because I was like, Okay, so I’ve got agency. I want to know what it’s like to work in house and how different that is obviously with agency, you’ve got the sort of

00:05:59.040 –> 00:06:08.730
Sarah McDowell: Different companies that you’re working for different industries different challenges. So I was like, Okay. Wonder if it’s less of a headache. If it’s just internal. And so, yes. So I did that for a bit.

00:06:09.600 –> 00:06:16.740
Sarah McDowell: And then I did that for a couple of companies and then I finally so I did have my own

00:06:17.280 –> 00:06:25.440
Sarah McDowell: Sort of marketing digital marketing agency for a bit and I got lonely. To be completely honest and and pull my boss.

00:06:25.800 –> 00:06:34.830
Sarah McDowell: I sort of knew like he was a friend and he was like, Oh, why don’t you just join like mind media and which is where I work. Now, and and he bought me in so

00:06:35.730 –> 00:06:46.020
Sarah McDowell: Whenever we hire someone he wants to hire someone that has a specialism in some sort. So obviously I came in with my SEO and and I sort of

00:06:47.430 –> 00:07:01.980
Sarah McDowell: Went with him, like all I’ve got an idea to do a podcast and i mean i don’t know if I’m like jumping ahead a bit ahead of myself better. And can I go in and talk about how the podcast came about is that, does that make sense. Let’s

00:07:02.040 –> 00:07:03.180
Jacob Stoops: Let’s leave that to the

00:07:03.240 –> 00:07:04.020
To the end because I

00:07:05.220 –> 00:07:18.330
Jacob Stoops: Questions for you and I definitely want to deep dive on the on the podcast, towards the end of the episode. So let’s let’s let’s wait on that one will get back to it and let’s talk about you outside of the podcast.

00:07:19.230 –> 00:07:23.130
Sarah McDowell: Okay well me as an individual in the SEO world.

00:07:24.660 –> 00:07:36.300
Sarah McDowell: Okay, well, yes. So I basically am so like I said, I fell into and I just love it because I mean this is the cliche, but we all know that Google is changing.

00:07:37.440 –> 00:07:47.760
Sarah McDowell: Like what worked 510 years ago. Doesn’t work now and i i can get quite bored as a person. I’m a bit flaky and friends reference there.

00:07:48.060 –> 00:07:56.820
Sarah McDowell: And so that so SEO kind of suits me because it’s always changing and you’ve got to sort of be ahead of the game, haven’t you, you’ve always got to

00:07:57.720 –> 00:08:07.080
Sarah McDowell: Be reading what’s what’s what’s going to industry events and stuff and and day to day activities. Wow, it’s like

00:08:07.830 –> 00:08:14.730
Sarah McDowell: Every day. So how I sort of work with my clients. So how clients come on board is like, Oh, I’ve got an issue with something

00:08:15.060 –> 00:08:28.320
Sarah McDowell: And they reach out and then they say, well, what, why is this. Can you help me. So then it’s finding what the reasons why basically behind if I if I’m making sense. And so I like to sort of diagnostic

00:08:28.740 –> 00:08:35.340
Sarah McDowell: And put in my sort of investigators hat on and also just trying stuff and

00:08:36.060 –> 00:08:45.270
Sarah McDowell: Like tried and tried and things on a client’s website and seeing if it works. If it doesn’t work, then we always transparent and say why we’ll try something new.

00:08:46.260 –> 00:08:58.800
Sarah McDowell: But at the same time, it’s great when you try something and it does work and they get an increase in traffic or they get an increase in rankings or the type of traffic is better for conversion sort of thing.

00:09:00.720 –> 00:09:11.850
Jacob Stoops: So I have to ask, you’ve been in what I call agency world three times, but you also dabbled in house which which do you like better, and why

00:09:12.960 –> 00:09:23.250
Sarah McDowell: Oh right, I’m going to say agency, just because and with agency, you get to work with lots of different industries.

00:09:23.640 –> 00:09:36.420
Sarah McDowell: And with different industries comes like different sort of challenges and problems. And so when I was working in house. Yes, you get really good and you can nation and industry.

00:09:37.020 –> 00:09:48.630
Sarah McDowell: However, and so when I was working for in house. It was for assistance firm and however I prefer more agency, because it’s more varied and you get to try new things out.

00:09:49.110 –> 00:10:05.250
Sarah McDowell: And and especially when it comes to SEO and things that I can dabble and try as agency. Where is if I’m just stuck in house working on one service, for example, and I don’t get to try new things as much

00:10:06.780 –> 00:10:12.060
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I feel sometimes. So I’ve always worked in agencies and never worked in house and

00:10:13.170 –> 00:10:16.710
Jeff Louella: Sometimes I do, I feel like I hit a limit on the agency side where

00:10:18.330 –> 00:10:23.340
Jeff Louella: You know, I’m giving recommendations to my client who either has a development team or has hired a separate development team.

00:10:23.760 –> 00:10:33.390
Jeff Louella: And sometimes they have different priorities right so now i don’t i’m always the outside person looking in. And a lot of my companies that I’m working for where I feel like if I went in house.

00:10:33.690 –> 00:10:45.180
Jeff Louella: I could be in there badgering them every day to get installed. But then once it’s implemented, you’re right. I think after a while you just like after working on the same site. And I think it’s why I’ve always stayed at agencies because

00:10:45.870 –> 00:10:49.620
Jeff Louella: Like I have a team and I can do a lot of in house people you’re one person.

00:10:50.250 –> 00:11:02.970
Jeff Louella: And you know you have a team we we actually get to definitely work on different things, all the times and and clients really like to mess up their sites, a lot and and we’re there to that we’re always there to be able to help and I feel like I get a lot more

00:11:04.170 –> 00:11:06.930
Jeff Louella: I get exposed to a lot more

00:11:08.130 –> 00:11:14.880
Jeff Louella: Being at the agency level, but sometimes I don’t feel like I get as deep as I want to get where you could probably get in house but

00:11:15.150 –> 00:11:15.600
I think yes.

00:11:17.070 –> 00:11:25.380
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, that’s a really good point, actually. So obviously, if you are in house. Then you’ve got sort of one focus and you can spend more time.

00:11:25.860 –> 00:11:34.680
Sarah McDowell: Because the one thing with agency and is you’ve only got a finite amount of time and we could all do with one more day and also it’s sort of juggling

00:11:35.130 –> 00:11:44.610
Sarah McDowell: What the client sees as a priority and what really is a priority. And so I have conversations with clients quite a lot of time where they deemed something more important.

00:11:44.910 –> 00:11:54.390
Sarah McDowell: Than something else that I want to work on and it’s the challenge of sort of proving okay what you want to work on is important, however, and

00:11:55.050 –> 00:12:03.120
Sarah McDowell: That, for example, when when when the medic update that was quite a while ago now as first day that I could think of the top of my head.

00:12:03.450 –> 00:12:16.980
Sarah McDowell: And there was quite, quite a few of my clients, where they needed to, especially the clients that we’re working in like given many advice medical advice there was work to be done there on sort of

00:12:17.520 –> 00:12:27.240
Sarah McDowell: On their about page and on the team page and getting the expertise across. And that’s what I wanted to work on, whereas they wanted to work on other things like the fluffier stuff that looks good to you. I mean, and

00:12:27.540 –> 00:12:36.060
Sarah McDowell: That’s the challenge really isn’t it is managing clients expectations and getting the point across that this is what needs to be worked on. And this is why

00:12:37.200 –> 00:12:47.400
Jacob Stoops: I always feel like, Well, I’ve said it, like many, many, many times. The hardest part of SEO is implementation, and I believe that that occurs.

00:12:47.820 –> 00:12:50.520
Jacob Stoops: Whether you’re in house or whether you’re at an agency.

00:12:51.150 –> 00:12:57.960
Jacob Stoops: I think the benefit of going in house and like sometimes when I’m at an agency, because I’ve jumped back and forth a couple of times you’re

00:12:58.320 –> 00:13:10.560
Jacob Stoops: You’re sometimes always yearning, a little bit for like the grass is grass is greener and sometimes when I’m when you know when you’re getting bombarded with a bunch of different industries, a bunch of different clients sometimes crazy work hours.

00:13:10.860 –> 00:13:17.520
Jacob Stoops: You’re always like, Man, I wish I could just for once, focus on one site for a finite amount of time and

00:13:17.520 –> 00:13:17.910
Sarah McDowell: See it

00:13:18.000 –> 00:13:29.070
Jacob Stoops: Through but then when I get there, I realized just like Jeff said, I’m the only one of my team. And at a certain point, like, especially if you’re having difficulty getting things implemented it gets quite

00:13:29.640 –> 00:13:38.670
Jacob Stoops: Boring. So I’ve found over the years that I just for in again in house SEOs are awesome. But I found for me.

00:13:40.050 –> 00:13:44.880
Jacob Stoops: The agency side tends to work a little bit more. But what I was getting to

00:13:45.600 –> 00:13:59.610
Jacob Stoops: Is the idea that sometimes implementation is really hard and it becomes an exercise in psychology. And what I mean by that is, how can I convince this third party to do

00:14:00.030 –> 00:14:10.200
Jacob Stoops: What they what I need them to do in order to make myself my agency their site successful and sometimes you really have to think about

00:14:10.650 –> 00:14:20.340
Jacob Stoops: Psychologically, what can you say to them to make them or what can you show them to make them want to change their minds which can be difficult because people don’t like

00:14:20.820 –> 00:14:30.990
Jacob Stoops: Change and there’s often egos involved in different priorities and that’s part of the fun, especially on in quote unquote agency world being kind of on the outside.

00:14:31.590 –> 00:14:39.360
Jacob Stoops: Looking in making the case to get your stuff implemented because you do have a short time window. It’s one of the greatest challenges we all face.

00:14:40.350 –> 00:14:54.240
Sarah McDowell: And it does at a date. Now, if you guys and what strictly Strictly Come Dancing or, you know, the UK strictly and but there was a judge on that she’s not anymore but darcey bussell so the

00:14:54.750 –> 00:15:09.240
Sarah McDowell: ballerina and this will be relevant, I promise. And when she was given feedback to dances. She’d always give the darcey bussell shit sandwich. And were you sort of

00:15:10.530 –> 00:15:21.540
Sarah McDowell: So you start with the positive, then you go with the negative and then you go with the positive again and I sort of. That’s how I sort of approach clients and stuff. So say for example, a client has just

00:15:22.830 –> 00:15:30.720
Sarah McDowell: They’ve got a new website and then they’ve come to you to SEO it. Yeah. And in that, and that’s what they actually say, oh, can you just SEO. This sign is that okay

00:15:31.560 –> 00:15:40.800
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, I’ve got issues with you to say that, but hey, I will will get over that. But yeah, but it’s sort of say, and you realize that the site isn’t

00:15:41.160 –> 00:15:52.650
Sarah McDowell: technically sound for SEO and that’s where the shit sandwich comes in. So I always try and find a positive to say. So if I can find something about user experience or page speed, for example, I’ll start with that.

00:15:52.950 –> 00:16:05.910
Sarah McDowell: And then I’ll say. However, this is not so good because this is the reasons why. And this is the opportunities and and yeah and then now end on a high as well. So there you go. The Darcy associate sandwich.

00:16:06.330 –> 00:16:10.350
Jacob Stoops: So I actually know more about dancing, then you might think

00:16:10.410 –> 00:16:23.820
Jacob Stoops: Said, I’m not a drama terrible dancer. My wife grew up as a as a dancer and why that’s relevant. Now it’s because you mentioned like one of the only dance shows that she probably doesn’t watch

00:16:24.570 –> 00:16:29.190
Jacob Stoops: But she watches literally every dance reality TV show. Well,

00:16:29.970 –> 00:16:38.910
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that there are more than this, but like we have watched dancing with the stars like every season since we’ve been together, which is going on like over a decade.

00:16:39.330 –> 00:16:46.860
Jacob Stoops: Now, and also. So You Think You Can Dance. I’m pretty well versed in dance reality shows and I’m actually surprised that I did not know that one.

00:16:47.700 –> 00:16:57.210
Sarah McDowell: Straight king. I mean, yes, I mean it’s the UK one. I mean, it’s coming to an end. Now, but that’s been on everyone’s wow that’s what me and my girlfriend watch

00:16:58.980 –> 00:17:00.390
Jacob Stoops: favorite type of dance.

00:17:02.100 –> 00:17:02.370
Sarah McDowell: Oh,

00:17:03.720 –> 00:17:18.390
Sarah McDowell: Well, I’ve not dancing, very long time. But when I was at university studying it. I preferred African peoples dance. So my course was dancing culture. So you got to do five different principles.

00:17:19.590 –> 00:17:36.600
Sarah McDowell: So we did African Khattak which is a Indian style of dancing ballet. I was rubbish at ballet, because it was just too strict can get on that and contemporary and cartography so African peoples dance was the form that I enjoyed the most

00:17:37.950 –> 00:17:53.850
Jacob Stoops: So I would say I think contemporary is the one that always in and I, my wife is a major crier. And I’m like, I would say I’m a minor crier like I get. I get a little bit emotional and I feel like contemporary always kind of brings that brings that out.

00:17:55.080 –> 00:18:01.290
Jacob Stoops: But then I would say in terms of like just really cool to watch. Um, it’s called POP POP locking

00:18:03.840 –> 00:18:05.340
Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember the name

00:18:06.420 –> 00:18:08.310
Sarah McDowell: But it took a night sweet so

00:18:09.480 –> 00:18:15.750
Jacob Stoops: Walking like quick robotic movements. I always find that fascinating.

00:18:16.830 –> 00:18:17.430
To watch

00:18:20.010 –> 00:18:21.480
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, can you pop luck.

00:18:22.500 –> 00:18:24.690
Jeff Louella: I could do the robot like it’s like

00:18:25.830 –> 00:18:26.220
Sarah McDowell: Me you

00:18:27.600 –> 00:18:32.940
Jeff Louella: Know, I am not a good dancer whatsoever. I do like to dance to embarrass my kids.

00:18:33.450 –> 00:18:33.900
What’s a good

00:18:37.590 –> 00:18:37.830
Sarah McDowell: One.

00:18:37.980 –> 00:18:45.570
Jacob Stoops: Fact in the, the only other dance thing that I’m that I’m going to talk about if you search YouTube for Jake and Gina wedding dance.

00:18:47.340 –> 00:18:51.450
Jacob Stoops: I’m all over that we actually did a choreographed dance at our wedding with

00:18:52.680 –> 00:18:56.490
Jacob Stoops: Something like 18 total bridesmaids and groomsmen

00:18:57.270 –> 00:18:59.820
Jacob Stoops: flippin oh yeah it was it was crazy.

00:19:00.330 –> 00:19:02.760
Sarah McDowell: I’ll be checking that out straight after this podcast.

00:19:03.780 –> 00:19:04.890
Jeff Louella: Check it out right now while we’re on it.

00:19:07.920 –> 00:19:09.480
Sarah McDowell: Multitasking is fine.

00:19:13.410 –> 00:19:14.580
Jacob Stoops: Fun. Cool.

00:19:20.760 –> 00:19:21.930
Jacob Stoops: Awesome, man.

00:19:23.010 –> 00:19:25.020
Jeff Louella: No, I don’t know much about dancing, but

00:19:28.320 –> 00:19:29.010
Jeff Louella: No, I mean, I

00:19:30.300 –> 00:19:35.670
Jeff Louella: I’m kind of been going through some of these new things and wanted to think we should jump into one of those or

00:19:35.850 –> 00:19:47.130
Jacob Stoops: Hold on, I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask about link building and what it’s like, because we’ve had. I feel like a lot of the people that we have on tend to lean technical

00:19:48.660 –> 00:19:54.900
Jacob Stoops: More so than more so than anything. And we’ve had a few that have come on from the content and link building

00:19:55.350 –> 00:20:05.430
Jacob Stoops: Side of the house. And as somebody that’s been doing that for a long time. I guess I would ask you, Sarah, what’s, what is that like, and how do you feel like that has shaped your

00:20:05.940 –> 00:20:22.890
Jacob Stoops: Perspective on the available, I would say the available options to you as an SEO because I feel like there are some people that just don’t do link building because they either think it’s bad or risky or just not something they’re comfortable doing so, like, how is

00:20:22.890 –> 00:20:23.400
Jeff Louella: None of them.

00:20:24.870 –> 00:20:36.570
Sarah McDowell: Oh really, well, I mean, so obviously when I, when I first got into SEO and I was doing link building. I am going to put my hands up and say that I did.

00:20:36.930 –> 00:20:41.310
Sarah McDowell: And I mean I don’t do it anymore. But I did tend to do more with the

00:20:41.790 –> 00:20:55.500
Sarah McDowell: The bad, sort of, well, not the bad but like them, you know, the more spammy ways of lie on a forum and you get like a link and somehow or you just go on that directories and and you know like back in the day, sort of,

00:20:56.010 –> 00:21:07.110
Sarah McDowell: link building that worked. Where is now. And Google has sort of Google is prioritizing sort of quality and value of the link and relevancy as well.

00:21:07.560 –> 00:21:19.020
Sarah McDowell: And so I have found so obviously because of that link building nowadays. It takes a lot more time and a lot more effort needs to

00:21:19.530 –> 00:21:30.630
Sarah McDowell: Go into it, but you do get rewarded and link links are always going to be the bread and butter, because that’s you hear that a lot of data that or you don’t need to link build anymore.

00:21:31.170 –> 00:21:37.440
Sarah McDowell: That’s not SEO. You don’t need to. But you still do, it’s still going to be one of those fundamentals, it’s still going to be one of the things that Google looks at

00:21:37.890 –> 00:21:44.610
Sarah McDowell: And and there’s different ways that you can go about link building. And so, for example,

00:21:45.420 –> 00:21:57.630
Sarah McDowell: One way that I will always do is I always do competitive research at first. So using tools to find out where where competitors have got links and seeing where I can

00:21:58.320 –> 00:22:12.210
Sarah McDowell: My right like opportunities for my clients. And I also think of content. So obviously, and creating high value content that shareable and it’s not just like a boring.

00:22:13.740 –> 00:22:30.540
Sarah McDowell: Boring Stuff, but things like content that’s actually going to make someone stop and read and think, Okay, this is going to help me so I don’t know you doing original research or doing something that that’s emotional. So whether it’s funny. If it’s and makes you cry sort of thing.

00:22:31.620 –> 00:22:45.780
Sarah McDowell: And so obviously when you’ve put your time aside to put together this content. It’s then reaching out and to then get people to link to it. Also, there’s another way. So say you’re doing an expert piece and you could invite

00:22:46.650 –> 00:22:57.240
Sarah McDowell: Seven experts in your industry and to contribute to a piece you then outreach to them and let them know because they’ll link back to you sort of thing. And I mean, I do think

00:22:57.750 –> 00:23:07.380
Sarah McDowell: There is a tendency that some companies will think, oh, if I make content that is really valuable and really good links will just come to me.

00:23:07.800 –> 00:23:15.750
Sarah McDowell: Where is is as idealistic as that is, you do need some work. And you do need to put it in front of people and tell people about it.

00:23:16.140 –> 00:23:28.830
Sarah McDowell: And but yeah so but you could also do something that’s a bit PR and so Brighton SEO and there was a talk by Oliver Brett who works at Screaming Frog.

00:23:29.220 –> 00:23:40.050
Sarah McDowell: And and he was like showing how you can sort of use fake news. Now I know fake news sort of gets a bit of a bad rap. But there is times where you can

00:23:40.380 –> 00:23:52.260
Sarah McDowell: Buy fake news as. Okay. So, for example, and like, I don’t know. And there was a football game and championship game or something and

00:23:53.160 –> 00:24:05.850
Sarah McDowell: And it was a it was England vs FRANCE, IT WAS THIS T shirt that would have the England flag. But then when you’re around people from France In France supporters, it would turn into a French flag.

00:24:06.210 –> 00:24:11.550
Sarah McDowell: And they put this product on the website, obviously it wasn’t a real product. It was just something fun.

00:24:11.940 –> 00:24:27.450
Sarah McDowell: And and yeah they got that into the news and people wanted to link build to it and another good example that I’ve seen. And so, Carrie Rose, who heads up an agency link building agency and who has been a

00:24:28.410 –> 00:24:39.750
Sarah McDowell: guest on our show. And so there’s game in the UK and they came up together they came up with a Christmas, Christmas dinner so is Christmas dinner.

00:24:40.080 –> 00:24:50.490
Sarah McDowell: All in a can, for gamers and and then I optimize the site for that and did a vegan and veggie virgin version and then reached out to

00:24:51.450 –> 00:25:04.980
Sarah McDowell: The PR and newspapers and stuff like that and like the genome or large Bible and again they so I don’t know, I feel like I’m blabbing but I don’t know if that’s given some insight that yeah

00:25:05.340 –> 00:25:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I think the key is in today’s world, like the the easy stuff. It just doesn’t work. It’s the stuff that you had that it’s hard and link building shouldn’t be hard in in any links that you’re building should be hard one. And you should have to be creative and I think

00:25:25.470 –> 00:25:42.360
Jacob Stoops: Those tend to be the ones that at least Google says that they value, more so than the ones that are a little bit more artificial in spammy. But one thing I wanted to say is when people talk about link building a lot of folks really think about it from an external

00:25:43.380 –> 00:25:54.660
Jacob Stoops: Standpoint, in terms of third party site linking to your website. And when I I think about link building. I think one of the most underrated aspects of link building is internal links.

00:25:54.870 –> 00:25:55.680
Sarah McDowell: Yes.

00:25:55.770 –> 00:25:56.910
Jacob Stoops: Or no link building right

00:25:57.270 –> 00:25:57.720
Sarah McDowell: A lot of

00:25:58.080 –> 00:26:10.770
Jacob Stoops: I’m dealing with a situation right now where we’ve got on one of my clients. We went from not having a lot of pages that talked about their product to over the course of this year, building those out.

00:26:11.550 –> 00:26:24.600
Jacob Stoops: The problem exist is exists is that they talk about their product on their on their blog quite a lot, but because these product pages are so new, they don’t have a lot of links within the site.

00:26:25.380 –> 00:26:25.650
Jeff Louella: Yes.

00:26:26.310 –> 00:26:28.230
Jeff Louella: Okay, let’s take this these

00:26:28.260 –> 00:26:37.950
Jacob Stoops: thousand or so blog pages because you’re not putting these product links in your navigation yet so they’re not site wide. Well, let’s increase the importance by

00:26:38.280 –> 00:26:48.120
Jacob Stoops: Looking at any time you’re mentioning the product in your blog post, but it’s not linked and you can pretty easily use screening frogs not

00:26:48.450 –> 00:26:50.790
Sarah McDowell: Interaction search feature to go and look

00:26:50.790 –> 00:27:02.820
Jacob Stoops: For any instances of where you’re mentioning a specific word or phrase across your website and boom, those are unlinked dimensions within your own website easy and there’s

00:27:04.530 –> 00:27:07.590
Jeff Louella: A there’s actually WordPress plugins that would actually if these were

00:27:07.590 –> 00:27:14.340
Jeff Louella: Just as your blog that would, you would automatically just say these are the terms link here and it anytime a blog post was written.

00:27:15.450 –> 00:27:19.800
Jeff Louella: It would do that at Zappos actually used to do that internally when foot product reviews.

00:27:20.670 –> 00:27:29.700
Jeff Louella: Anytime. If you would say like these Nike sneakers are awesome and they would just highlight Nike automatically in a review like as a reviewer. I’m not linking to that page.

00:27:30.450 –> 00:27:40.830
Jeff Louella: I think they recently stopped doing that probably little spammy but but it was internal so there was one of those where they weren’t linking out there, creating internal links that way. So,

00:27:41.310 –> 00:27:43.680
Jacob Stoops: Let’s go. Oh, go ahead. Sarah.

00:27:44.010 –> 00:27:50.760
Sarah McDowell: No, I was just gonna say, I think a lot of businesses, Miss, miss a big opportunity with their homepage with internal linking

00:27:51.150 –> 00:28:03.900
Sarah McDowell: And especially like seasonal and opportunities. So if you’ve got a Christmas promotion or Christmas products that over the Christmas season, for example, or that’s all the way around, or maybe

00:28:04.260 –> 00:28:14.820
Sarah McDowell: You’ve put together this really good bit of content that is adding value. It’s got research. It’s got experts and people just forget to use the homepage to link to it because

00:28:15.210 –> 00:28:28.320
Sarah McDowell: And so, Hannah co host of the SEO SAS podcast came up with a really nice analogy. So when you’re thinking of like internal linking. You got to think of the homepage is the trunk. So that’s the core. And that’s the structure

00:28:28.740 –> 00:28:34.140
Sarah McDowell: And then you’ve got the branches. The first lots of branches and that’s sort of like your first

00:28:34.590 –> 00:28:48.150
Sarah McDowell: Two pages that are coming off that and then you’ve got a leaves as well, which you child pages. And I thought that was a nice way to think of how like how you sigh in the sort of how you can use it sort of thing.

00:28:50.250 –> 00:29:04.170
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, and and it that actually as you were saying that reminded me of some of the newer visualization tools that some of the crawlers have come out with. And I’ve never thought of it as like an actual tree, but

00:29:04.770 –> 00:29:05.880
Jacob Stoops: Start thinking about it.

00:29:06.960 –> 00:29:07.470
Jacob Stoops: That way.

00:29:08.070 –> 00:29:20.910
Sarah McDowell: It just makes sense because like your home. I think people forget and I mean this is a bugbear of mine is when people don’t like we don’t need much text on the homepage. That’s just have like put your pictures and it’s just like now.

00:29:21.210 –> 00:29:25.830
Sarah McDowell: That is just a missed opportunity there. And yeah, so I mean

00:29:26.160 –> 00:29:28.080
Jacob Stoops: Most powerful page people

00:29:30.480 –> 00:29:32.580
Jacob Stoops: What people can’t see is me shaking

00:29:33.990 –> 00:29:37.830
Jacob Stoops: Not actually shaking myself but shaking up a fake client.

00:29:38.670 –> 00:29:47.340
Sarah McDowell: And one more. One more point on this is some people. I did have a conversation with a client. And they were just like they didn’t. They were worried that

00:29:47.910 –> 00:29:56.460
Sarah McDowell: Their homepage was going to be too long, like scrolling wise and it was like that is the that’s the wrong point here that it wasn’t even that long at all. But yeah.

00:29:58.080 –> 00:30:05.490
Jeff Louella: It was funny. A check our website that had like this gigantic like look like an HTML site map at the bottom of their homepage.

00:30:06.270 –> 00:30:14.850
Jeff Louella: With like every link to their whole site. I just went to go pulled up the kind of talk about it, and it seemed like they remove that it might have been just for the holidays. They put that in there so

00:30:16.050 –> 00:30:24.690
Jeff Louella: It was a company off of Amazon own called eating. I like to go in Amazon’s footer and look at all the companies they list every company, they kind of own or work with at the bottom and

00:30:25.080 –> 00:30:36.720
Jeff Louella: It was one. I was like, I never heard of this one. And I clicked on it and it, it literally was a hero image and then like an HTML site map underneath it for every single like category product page they had

00:30:38.070 –> 00:30:41.130
Jeff Louella: Which I kind of liked because it got me through the site as quick as I could.

00:30:42.660 –> 00:30:44.040
Sarah McDowell: Again, no point in being

00:30:44.340 –> 00:30:48.690
Jeff Louella: You and I think that’s probably why they did it. So it was interesting. It’s not there now.

00:30:50.520 –> 00:30:57.720
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I, I, I’ve got one more question, because I know you’re chomping at the bit to get to the news and I know that I also have a rant. So I want to get to that.

00:30:58.560 –> 00:31:10.260
Jacob Stoops: But Sarah, you mentioned you were, you were at an agency, not at you created an agency and then you decided not to do it anymore. Like what, what went into into that.

00:31:11.670 –> 00:31:26.370
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so basically I’m always up for trying something new, which is why I do a podcast. That’s how I got into roller derby. And so I’m always if someone says. Also, why don’t you try. I’m gonna try basically so

00:31:26.880 –> 00:31:35.640
Sarah McDowell: It was after a conversation. So when I went at my last service in house. For this list, as I mentioned earlier,

00:31:36.150 –> 00:31:49.020
Sarah McDowell: And they were mentioning that they were going to get rid of internal marketing and outsource at all. So obviously I had to go and find myself for the job and I, my boss at the time, not the boss now, but he was really

00:31:50.550 –> 00:31:58.500
Sarah McDowell: It was just quite an inspirational because he he was just like Sarah, you’ve got so I obviously had some connections still

00:31:58.800 –> 00:32:11.190
Sarah McDowell: And with the clients from that business because even though. Yes, I worked internally for DHL we also had like another branch which offered external marketing services.

00:32:12.150 –> 00:32:21.870
Sarah McDowell: And I saw and I had good relationships with the clients and and my boss at the time, just like you should try going on your own.

00:32:22.500 –> 00:32:29.310
Sarah McDowell: When you go on your own. It’s not like you have to start from scratch. You’ve already got it was about three or four clients to start with.

00:32:29.700 –> 00:32:36.990
Sarah McDowell: And when I approached them and said look, and the company is closing but I decided to go on my own. And would you

00:32:37.410 –> 00:32:46.020
Sarah McDowell: If I, if that’s the case, which would be happy if I carried on. And everyone was supportive and they’re like, Yes. And so, yeah, I did that for a bit and

00:32:46.380 –> 00:32:52.230
Sarah McDowell: The company, may I made profit which I’m told in your first year, not many businesses do

00:32:52.980 –> 00:33:01.440
Sarah McDowell: But because it was digital. I didn’t really have that many costs, overhead costs. So it was quite lucrative isn’t it is the word is

00:33:01.920 –> 00:33:17.220
Sarah McDowell: And and yeah and it just got to a point where yes, I was making money and I could pay the bills and I had this flexibility. I just got lonely and I because I’m

00:33:17.820 –> 00:33:27.060
Sarah McDowell: I like being part of a team and I just felt like I missed having conversations with that because obviously I could have conversations

00:33:27.480 –> 00:33:34.230
Sarah McDowell: online or at live events and stuff but I missed the live internal conversations where you also have

00:33:35.040 –> 00:33:47.430
Sarah McDowell: You care about this one thing that you’re working towards, and it was if something bad happened and which is part and parcel of owning a business that failed on me something good happened. It was like a one person party.

00:33:48.630 –> 00:34:04.260
Sarah McDowell: And yeah, it just got to a point where I just decided that being a savvy business, business woman wasn’t for me and and yeah decided to but and I did speak to. So when I was going through that and running my business.

00:34:05.070 –> 00:34:12.120
Sarah McDowell: I did know my boss now at my my media Paul and I was always honest with him. And that’s when he was like, well,

00:34:12.540 –> 00:34:26.040
Sarah McDowell: You can come and work for, for me, and you still have the flexibility but you have the support and you’ll be working with a team and and that, so. So yes, I can say that I’ve tried it, but it wasn’t for me basically

00:34:27.630 –> 00:34:32.310
Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s tough. I mean, even just running a team can be tough, but let alone having to

00:34:32.970 –> 00:34:41.490
Jeff Louella: Deal with people live people’s livelihood and things like that. It’s I it’s funny. I always had the in my head, I’m like, I always want to start a business.

00:34:42.210 –> 00:34:49.170
Jeff Louella: And then I get to positions where I need to like I’m in charge of someone like whether they have a paycheck.

00:34:50.010 –> 00:34:58.680
Jeff Louella: And things like that and it gets a little scary sometimes and I realized like, you know, I, I’m really great at solving problems and solving like

00:34:59.070 –> 00:35:06.870
Jeff Louella: Technical issues on SEOs for SEO and things like that. I’m not great at HR, that is the one thing that you really need to be to

00:35:07.590 –> 00:35:21.960
Jeff Louella: To to run a company right it’s more you have to be a people person and and sometimes I just don’t have that empathy and me when the little I’m just like, Is your work done know and it’s like, well, I don’t care about anything else. And it’s not the right way to do it because

00:35:23.640 –> 00:35:36.150
Jeff Louella: I know like I need to connect a little bit better with my co workers, let alone if I was actually the one in charge of everything in there so it. I totally get wanting to go back and being part of part of the team and

00:35:37.170 –> 00:35:38.850
Jeff Louella: There’s a special breed, to be able to run it all.

00:35:39.240 –> 00:35:51.000
Sarah McDowell: And it’s like when because when you’re in a team. You can you can stay up to date with stuff that’s happening more because you have conversations date. Yeah. And or say you want to try some new

00:35:51.390 –> 00:36:10.800
Sarah McDowell: I’m always like, I always think it’s good to get a second opinion or just wouldn’t do ideas with someone else or get get someone’s the perspective or the point of view. And I just felt like I didn’t really have that when I was on on my own. I mean, get your small violin out for me.

00:36:13.230 –> 00:36:14.340
Sarah McDowell: I’m much better.

00:36:15.900 –> 00:36:23.130
Sarah McDowell: Rather than yeah I’m about to be in part of a team and having security of not being my own boss.

00:36:23.730 –> 00:36:34.110
Jeff Louella: Right. I think my part of my issue is I treat everyone equally. And he can when you’re in equally as in like mean you can do the same amount of work or same everything and

00:36:34.710 –> 00:36:37.110
Jeff Louella: When you’re the CEO, I would expect everyone to be CEO.

00:36:39.120 –> 00:36:39.990
Jeff Louella: So that’s it for part

00:36:42.750 –> 00:36:51.630
Sarah McDowell: One of our one of our clients and that they one of their things that they say is that they don’t have a business hierarchy, which I think is

00:36:52.260 –> 00:37:01.650
Sarah McDowell: Quite interesting so it’s like a flat structure. I think it’s a trend that businesses. Try and know how it’s like over the pond sort of thing.

00:37:01.980 –> 00:37:19.380
Sarah McDowell: And this idea that everyone is the same and, naturally, you do get leaders, don’t you, but the fact is that everyone is sort of treated equally, as it were, and and yeah I thought that was really interesting to have his case, we

00:37:19.770 –> 00:37:34.770
Jeff Louella: Were in a fairly flat organization Jake and I, and it has its pluses and minuses. And you know, I think when it comes down to if everyone is equal, then yeah, you need to have those natural leaders come out to to be able to run things and

00:37:35.940 –> 00:37:43.740
Jeff Louella: Though I think when your natural leader at that point. It’s like, you like to be crammed a leader in a way and edify the organization. You’re not so it’s

00:37:45.450 –> 00:37:49.020
Jeff Louella: I think there are some people who are definitely we have different titles and different levels.

00:37:49.620 –> 00:38:05.970
Jeff Louella: But when it comes to like reporting, we have two major departments with two major department heads and they kind of are in charge of all the direct you know raises and promotions and things like that everyone else is pretty much equal underneath there, even though there are levels of

00:38:06.990 –> 00:38:10.740
Jeff Louella: Positions, it really comes down to, like, what kind of work, you’ll be doing and

00:38:11.340 –> 00:38:14.580
Jeff Louella: But when it comes down to the HR type of stuff. You are all equal. So

00:38:14.640 –> 00:38:17.010
Jacob Stoops: How much scratch you’re making. Yeah.

00:38:18.030 –> 00:38:24.390
Jacob Stoops: And let me tell you in flat companies like don’t let anybody fool you, everybody’s not equal.

00:38:24.840 –> 00:38:34.590
Jacob Stoops: The CEO and the upper level people like they’re making the most scratch. All right, they’re making the most money. So I’ve got my. I’m not going to go on a rant. Here I’ve got my problems with flat organizations like

00:38:35.520 –> 00:38:45.510
Jacob Stoops: I don’t have a problem with search discovery and their, their format. It’s much more hierarchical than the last place I came from, in which I had a real real big problem.

00:38:46.650 –> 00:38:56.670
Jacob Stoops: With the level of flatness in the organization and the lack of advancement and money advancement opportunities. So anyways, yeah. Let’s go to the news.

00:38:56.940 –> 00:39:05.040
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and I’ve kind of flows right into this. You kind of HR owning an agency being in charge of hiring.

00:39:05.610 –> 00:39:10.320
Jeff Louella: I don’t know if everyone’s seen, but Bill hearts are kind of put out a question on Twitter yesterday.

00:39:10.860 –> 00:39:19.230
Jeff Louella: Basically saying if I was hiring someone for an SEO position. What questions what I asked him, and then he goes and says he’ll start and his first question would be,

00:39:19.830 –> 00:39:35.010
Jeff Louella: What is the Google Florida update and why was it so significant part of the SEO history and basically says if they can answer that he’ll hire the wrong spot and followed by a million responses about how he’s old school and a boomer

00:39:36.240 –> 00:39:48.150
Jeff Louella: And different things in there, but I guess question would have, like, you know, if it’s a good question. In general, and I think we all have different ways of of hiring and you know me personally when it comes to

00:39:49.110 –> 00:39:53.610
Jeff Louella: When I am kind of in charge of hiring and when I’ve had positions where I was.

00:39:54.690 –> 00:39:57.720
Jeff Louella: Solely in charge of hiring I’m, I’m a very

00:39:59.100 –> 00:40:03.750
Jeff Louella: Like I say bad, but I am. I’m not gonna say thorough either but I make people do presentations.

00:40:04.170 –> 00:40:10.440
Jeff Louella: I like to give them a site and say whether it’s your first SEO job or you’re coming in as a director. I like to give you

00:40:10.860 –> 00:40:16.140
Jeff Louella: A project and basically say, because I’m going to learn. Way more than your resume shows me

00:40:16.470 –> 00:40:21.810
Jeff Louella: When you sit down and tell me what’s wrong with the site and I’m never saying like, give me a two hour presentation. It’s always like 30 minutes

00:40:22.260 –> 00:40:29.250
Jeff Louella: If you are for the brand new in SEO. Maybe it’s give me you know presentation on five reasons why contents. Good.

00:40:29.610 –> 00:40:37.110
Jeff Louella: Another one, like if you were coming in more advanced, I will give you a site that I know not only ever use my own clients, cuz I don’t want to seem like I’m trying to get free work.

00:40:37.590 –> 00:40:45.660
Jeff Louella: But I’ll pick a site out there and just say, Hey, here’s a website, you know, give me a quick audit and then present me your findings and that way I can see your thinking behind everything

00:40:46.410 –> 00:40:54.690
Jeff Louella: So I actually before even as questions that I like to have a good presentation. Like, I’m like client, because then I know if I could stick someone in front of a client.

00:40:56.250 –> 00:40:59.340
Jeff Louella: But when it comes to questions like, What kind of questions do you all ask

00:41:02.100 –> 00:41:04.290
Sarah McDowell: Oh, is it is it me fast.

00:41:04.440 –> 00:41:05.910
Jeff Louella: There you go. We’ll go you first, sir.

00:41:06.270 –> 00:41:10.740
Sarah McDowell: Hey, I am so, so just confirm the question. So what so

00:41:10.980 –> 00:41:15.000
Jeff Louella: You know, if you were when you were hiring someone what kind of questions would you ask them.

00:41:18.240 –> 00:41:24.450
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so I would ask and first and foremost there. So if life experiences.

00:41:24.810 –> 00:41:35.580
Sarah McDowell: And and what what they’ve done in in SEO sort of thing. And what what what what are the challenges that they’ve found just just talk to them and have a conversation, because I think

00:41:36.150 –> 00:41:44.820
Sarah McDowell: When you have a honest face to face conversation with someone, it’s quite obvious straight away, whether they know what they’re talking about, or not.

00:41:46.200 –> 00:41:55.620
Sarah McDowell: And so a thing. And then I also am so depending when the conversations happened I might bring up like the latest updates that have happened.

00:41:56.250 –> 00:42:10.560
Sarah McDowell: Because obviously, Google is always updating its algorithm. And it’s constantly changing and the times where an update will be given a name is because it’s affected or this is my understanding, though.

00:42:11.070 –> 00:42:15.630
Sarah McDowell: But it’s affected enough sites that there’s been enough chatter chatter in the industry.

00:42:15.960 –> 00:42:30.990
Sarah McDowell: And then all of a sudden, we’ve got a name for it sort of thing. So, so I’ll have that conversation and see. Okay. Because if you are passionate about SEO. And one thing that you’re going to be on the lookout for is how it’s changing you I mean

00:42:32.250 –> 00:42:40.560
Sarah McDowell: And and other things as well. So not just Google’s core algorithm, but other things. So, for example, bet and how

00:42:41.400 –> 00:42:50.370
Sarah McDowell: How Google can now use that to better understand and users intent and keywords and stuff like that. So having conversations like that.

00:42:50.940 –> 00:42:59.970
Sarah McDowell: And I’d also ask them sort of their, their goals and their aspirations sort of thing and where they want to be and what they want to do.

00:43:00.510 –> 00:43:13.290
Sarah McDowell: And I’d like some proof like some. I don’t know if they could come to the interview and sort of say, this is what I’m really proud of this is, this is what I did for a client.

00:43:13.710 –> 00:43:24.060
Sarah McDowell: And this was the results. And this is why it’s so good sort of thing. Because I think if you’ve got proof of what they’ve done. And because there’s a lot of people who can talk the talk isn’t there.

00:43:25.140 –> 00:43:40.110
Sarah McDowell: But when it actually comes to doing it. So it’d be good to actually see some proof of that. And, and I don’t know. I mean, maybe check them out a bit before so I see if they’ve got like a Twitter profile or a LinkedIn profile or and just see what sort of

00:43:41.880 –> 00:43:46.410
Sarah McDowell: If they’re getting involved in SEO to to chatter or and things like that.

00:43:48.270 –> 00:43:49.860
Sarah McDowell: And I don’t know, and

00:43:52.560 –> 00:43:53.910
Jeff Louella: No, that’s great. I think

00:43:55.200 –> 00:44:04.260
Jeff Louella: It’s funny, I take an approach like that to an extent where I get to try to just know the person because I know if I am working with them. I need to at least like them so they might have all the answers.

00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:10.170
Jeff Louella: And might be an amazing at that. But if we just don’t click. It’s not going to be fun for everybody. Right, so

00:44:10.230 –> 00:44:13.050
Sarah McDowell: No date you straight off, whether you’re going to click with someone

00:44:13.200 –> 00:44:13.620
Sarah McDowell: Or not.

00:44:14.190 –> 00:44:14.820
Jeff Louella: And within

00:44:15.120 –> 00:44:16.830
Sarah McDowell: A few jokes now.

00:44:18.690 –> 00:44:20.910
Jeff Louella: Time for bed dad jokes to so

00:44:22.650 –> 00:44:30.030
Jacob Stoops: The thing about interviews is like, I find it really difficult to assess somebody’s quality.

00:44:30.510 –> 00:44:39.360
Jacob Stoops: In a 30 minute interview or even an hour interview right you often don’t know somebody real true quality in terms of how they’re going to perform at work.

00:44:39.810 –> 00:45:00.960
Jacob Stoops: So you’ve worked with them for quite a while. So the for me. The, the basis of a, of an interview is do they seem to know what they’re talking about. Do they click in terms of their, their fit within both the role as well as where they’re going to be working

00:45:03.150 –> 00:45:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Are they, and I think this one’s really important are they naturally curious, do they want to learn more.

00:45:11.550 –> 00:45:20.550
Jacob Stoops: Do they have ambition. Are they competitive. Do they have Dr. Sarah. I also think, is it, it’s really important that they show

00:45:20.970 –> 00:45:32.610
Jacob Stoops: In this is what I find missing from most resumes that I look at actual tangible examples that prove out the results that you’ve actually driven results because you’re right.

00:45:34.290 –> 00:45:42.480
Jacob Stoops: Some people do talk a big game and then you get them in and you find that they’ve just got no clue. And they’re just faking it until they

00:45:43.290 –> 00:45:43.710
Sarah McDowell: Take it.

00:45:43.770 –> 00:45:44.190

00:45:45.390 –> 00:45:50.580
Jacob Stoops: I will say that this um so this tweet from Bill. I don’t know if he meant to like set off.

00:45:51.810 –> 00:45:55.860
Jacob Stoops: Set off the the Twitter swarm that can sometimes

00:45:57.210 –> 00:46:03.990
Jacob Stoops: Eat its own eat its own younger. Sometimes you have to watch out for SEO Twitter, man. If you say the wrong thing. They will

00:46:04.500 –> 00:46:08.580
Jacob Stoops: They will come after you. And so I want to be very clear. I don’t want to be

00:46:09.960 –> 00:46:14.370
Jacob Stoops: Perceived as like coming after Bill BC. So I’ve never met him, but he seems like a nice guy.

00:46:14.970 –> 00:46:24.270
Jacob Stoops: The question. So what is the Google Florida update and why was it such a significant part of SEO history to me in 2019 it’s like asking

00:46:24.810 –> 00:46:44.160
Jacob Stoops: A high schooler about a rotary phone like and why it’s so important to cell phones today and it’s just like, Okay, like I love history. I’m a huge history buff and and I’m a believer that if you don’t, if you aren’t aware of history, you’re not going to recognize it when it is

00:46:45.450 –> 00:46:57.180
Jacob Stoops: Coming back around in today’s age. However, this is not the same thing. This is apples to oranges in the Google Florida update. Not only has never played a role.

00:46:57.960 –> 00:47:10.920
Jacob Stoops: In in terms of my SEO work. I will say that it’s kind of like what is it back to the future with the timeline. So like if Google Florida update doesn’t happen then Google Panda in Google Penguin and all of these other

00:47:11.070 –> 00:47:26.610
Jacob Stoops: Needs never happen. Right. So it had to happen. And I’m glad it happened. But this thing happened in like the early 2000s before like 95% of the people that work in SEO are were even even thinking about SEO.

00:47:27.720 –> 00:47:30.570
Jacob Stoops: It was barely a thing. So like to ask somebody

00:47:31.770 –> 00:47:40.710
Jacob Stoops: If they remember that it’s like, Well, no, because I was in college or high school like no no not relevant, how they do their job today.

00:47:41.040 –> 00:47:58.170
Sarah McDowell: Show me. It’s better if someone can demonstrate like things that are happening now, or kitty chatter about what’s going to happen in the future and being hung up, and I think it’s a bit like traditionalist, isn’t it, I suppose, if that’s the right word to use.

00:48:00.000 –> 00:48:08.850
Sarah McDowell: But I do think some SEO is do you get a bit caught up on. I don’t know, like knowing your stuff and

00:48:09.300 –> 00:48:15.570
Sarah McDowell: I mean, I couldn’t sit and tell you, like all the updates that have happened you know i mean like

00:48:16.260 –> 00:48:33.150
Sarah McDowell: I do understand that and I’ve looked into me search how Google has an search engines and the internet has evolved because I find that interesting and but getting hung up on putting someone on the spot and being like, Tommy, what this is right now. Do you know what I mean, it’s just

00:48:33.570 –> 00:48:35.400
Sarah McDowell: It doesn’t feel. Yeah.

00:48:36.270 –> 00:48:36.570
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:48:37.440 –> 00:48:43.590
Jacob Stoops: The last thing I’ll say, and I do want to move into the, into talking about the podcast is like

00:48:44.130 –> 00:48:53.370
Jacob Stoops: It’s not a freakin pop quiz. Right, we’re doing SEO, and for the most part, like, very few of my clients have ever been significantly impacted by

00:48:53.910 –> 00:49:03.510
Jacob Stoops: An algorithm update. And not only that, like my clients their problems tend to be way, way, way, way, way more basic and way more fundamental than

00:49:03.960 –> 00:49:18.300
Jacob Stoops: All of this stuff, especially Google Florida in which one no client has ever asked me about that and to I’ve only ever heard one other SEO outside of maybe SEO Twitter a few times actually mentioned it to me in an office setting.

00:49:18.720 –> 00:49:22.110
Jacob Stoops: And he mentioned it to me because he was reminiscing about the old days.

00:49:23.280 –> 00:49:23.610
Sarah McDowell: It just

00:49:24.060 –> 00:49:25.020
Sarah McDowell: It just fine today.

00:49:25.530 –> 00:49:26.190
Jacob Stoops: And that was it.

00:49:27.240 –> 00:49:30.360
Jeff Louella: So neither of you are getting hired just telling you because

00:49:30.390 –> 00:49:36.330
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, suggested that they would walk out at the interview and I don’t think that I would do that but

00:49:36.840 –> 00:49:55.860
Jeff Louella: I mean, I honestly I think the answer is, hey, there’s been a million of them. I’d have to look that one back up but i mean i i was in the business that time but I I’m lucky I haven’t gotten hit by a couple algorithm updates, but only a couple over the last, you know, 1015 years so

00:49:57.000 –> 00:49:58.170
Jeff Louella: Nothing there was

00:49:58.530 –> 00:50:05.100
Jeff Louella: Nothing was irreversible and you know it’s like a lot of times it’s like hey your site’s not the quality like i mean i

00:50:05.490 –> 00:50:14.340
Jeff Louella: Don’t I didn’t even look up, Florida, but I can tell you, like that. It’s probably something to do with your site was not great quality or the links pointing seems like that’s what it is about

00:50:15.690 –> 00:50:16.140
Jeff Louella: So,

00:50:16.680 –> 00:50:28.740
Sarah McDowell: I do, I do have to believe them. And that same figure. So every time that Google was out a new update or changes the algorithm or do something different is all about make it better in the experience for the user.

00:50:29.340 –> 00:50:38.610
Sarah McDowell: As long as you’re doing that with your website. And that’s your goal, you should be all right with like penalties and stuff like, don’t get me wrong, you

00:50:39.210 –> 00:50:48.780
Sarah McDowell: People do get hit, and it’s completely unintentional because yeah like just happens, isn’t it, and the SEO world. But if you’re there, providing value.

00:50:49.080 –> 00:51:00.600
Sarah McDowell: Your website is accessible. You’re not deceiving Googled you know i mean like the key things if you’re always doing those those sort of things, then you should you should be okay.

00:51:02.010 –> 00:51:04.980
Sarah McDowell: You should. I mean, it’s a big should lie, but yeah.

00:51:06.240 –> 00:51:06.450
Sarah McDowell: So,

00:51:08.310 –> 00:51:20.340
Jacob Stoops: Tell us about your podcast, because I want to make sure we’ve got about 17 minutes left. And I’m going to apologize to the audience. I have a hard stop and that was bad planning on my part, but I want to make sure we talked about the SEO, SEM podcast.

00:51:20.790 –> 00:51:37.530
Sarah McDowell: I’m okay. Okay, well, yes. And so the SEO SAS podcast. And so it came on, it was born. And because me and my friend Hannah and I actually worked with her. So I know her.

00:51:37.890 –> 00:51:52.980
Sarah McDowell: And but we, it was a couple of years ago, and we were at Brighton SEO and like the big conference in the UK. And we saw that the SEO so of so attendees and speakers at the time.

00:51:53.430 –> 00:52:03.780
Sarah McDowell: Tend to be like male orientated. And that seemed to be like if you look to the ratio between male speakers and FEMALE SPEAKERS mayo.

00:52:04.140 –> 00:52:15.120
Sarah McDowell: Attendees and female attendees. It was more. So the males, it was, it seemed to be a male dominated industry at the time, obviously it’s getting better and better as time time is going on.

00:52:15.540 –> 00:52:26.610
Sarah McDowell: And but at the same time, you also saw a niche for a female lead SEO podcast and because we because after

00:52:27.390 –> 00:52:35.340
Sarah McDowell: After we went to Brighton SEO and we had this conversation. And then when I looked into podcasts. I had a conversation with Hannah was just like we’ve got an opportunity here.

00:52:35.730 –> 00:52:49.320
Sarah McDowell: And there’s there’s not that much female lead SEO really like just SEO podcast. And I think this is an opportunity and and I was quite passionate about it because

00:52:49.830 –> 00:53:07.170
Sarah McDowell: I wanted to like showcase other amazing females in the SEO community. And I also wanted to I think SEO gets a bad rap for being boring. And that’s the joke in our office anyway.

00:53:08.400 –> 00:53:18.450
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, and I wanted to sort of be like, no, it can actually be some sort of furnace in inspiring and yeah and it doesn’t, it’s not boring at all.

00:53:19.470 –> 00:53:38.640
Sarah McDowell: And and yes and what and why why outs, I think, Well, yes, we just thought we needed. We just needed to do it and we love to talk about SEO as well. So we thought why don’t we put together a podcast. And yeah, as I explained it enough that

00:53:39.630 –> 00:53:53.070
Jacob Stoops: It’s kind of like what I think is interesting about SEO podcasts if if clients or if if you’re somebody that needs SEO. If you want to know like how the SEOs talk if you were

00:53:53.880 –> 00:54:06.090
Jacob Stoops: If you wanted to be like a fly on the wall and you want to know how does an SEO talk about SEO to another SEO. That’s one reason I would think to listen to Sarah’s podcast, as well as to ours, because of

00:54:06.480 –> 00:54:22.230
Jacob Stoops: What we really think when and when that sometimes comes comes through to you as a as a client or in house to whoever we’re delivering the recommendations to it’s kind of a filtered version of that. And this is a little bit more on filtered, I would say.

00:54:23.310 –> 00:54:24.540
Sarah McDowell: Transparent we

00:54:25.980 –> 00:54:42.390
Sarah McDowell: Transparency and yeah and I mean it’s just about having a bit of fun and educating people because as well and as a lot of businesses, small businesses that don’t have the budget to have a marketing team or high marketing. So

00:54:43.050 –> 00:54:47.760
Sarah McDowell: There are some things that you can do like nine times out of 10 leave SEO.

00:54:48.060 –> 00:54:56.430
Sarah McDowell: And SEM professional likes you don’t want to break stuff, but there are, if we can at least be educating businesses and they can start thinking about it because

00:54:56.790 –> 00:55:08.760
Sarah McDowell: There’s a lot of businesses that have thought about all or they’ve heard of the term SEO or they know that they need to do it, but they don’t really quite understand it. They don’t quite get it. So we like to sort of present it in a way

00:55:09.810 –> 00:55:17.790
Sarah McDowell: That is accessible and it’s all I could do that or that makes sense to me or no that is a priority, I need to prioritize this for my website.

00:55:18.240 –> 00:55:33.570
Sarah McDowell: And and we’ve had some really awesome conversations. And don’t get me wrong. We do I know I said about like getting it was a female lead wanted to showcase females, but we do invite and males on as well. Don’t worry.

00:55:34.830 –> 00:55:48.720
Sarah McDowell: Just had amazing people on who are just the people that we get on just want to share knowledge or share their experiences and that is so priceless in this industry and we’ve had

00:55:49.200 –> 00:56:01.740
Sarah McDowell: So today I actually recorded a podcast with a lady Claire Carlisle who helps her thing is helping small businesses grow by making the most out of local SEO.

00:56:02.190 –> 00:56:14.970
Sarah McDowell: And and it was just so just having a conversation about the possibilities of local SEO and Google my business pages and stuff. We spoke to carry Rose who

00:56:15.690 –> 00:56:33.090
Sarah McDowell: Is awesome at she’s a creative SEO agency and their thing is about getting links by doing awesome creative content and some of the things that night talking to her was just amazing as well. We’ve had Sophie Cali on who

00:56:34.500 –> 00:56:46.530
Sarah McDowell: Talk to us about search listening. So the idea behind not getting caught up on keywords and search volumes, but more. What is it, what is it that people are

00:56:46.980 –> 00:57:00.660
Sarah McDowell: Wanting to know about what are the topics sort of thing and and biting content that sort of answers those questions. We’ve also had a lady on who talked about gamification and how

00:57:01.740 –> 00:57:17.130
Sarah McDowell: How that can help with links to your site. And another way of creating really good content. And then we had the lady merely king who came on, who gave talks obviously site speed Page Speed is a big factor with SEO.

00:57:17.580 –> 00:57:25.320
Sarah McDowell: And she came on with life. So she wrote for search engine watch a piece with practical tips and tools to how to do it. So,

00:57:26.370 –> 00:57:36.660
Sarah McDowell: We’re all about like inviting people on to talk about stuff. And we don’t. Sometimes it’s just me and Hannah, who will debate stuff. So, for example, or debate, the

00:57:37.380 –> 00:57:54.840
Sarah McDowell: ongoing debate of what’s better long short long or short content sort of thing. And we’ll talk about internal linking we’ll talk about competitive research. So it’s a bit of a generalist podcast where we just discussed. And yeah, basically.

00:57:55.260 –> 00:58:09.540
Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. So I’m kind of lucky that I came in on season two. Because Jacob really did a lot of the getting things off the ground and and just starting from zero, right. So I got I got the come in and

00:58:10.620 –> 00:58:15.660
Jeff Louella: All that stuff was already set so that that was, you know, easy for me. Of course, because it was easy to say yes.

00:58:16.200 –> 00:58:25.830
Jeff Louella: Because I’d have to do all that groundwork. So what are some of the things that like learning and challenges that you had from just like starting the podcast from zero and getting it to where it is now.

00:58:26.310 –> 00:58:27.240
Sarah McDowell: Yes, and listeners.

00:58:27.900 –> 00:58:41.940
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, and I say to you put. So obviously, we had this brain wave and maybe we may have had a few wines, remember that. Oh my god, this is amazing idea we’re going to get loads of listens on our first episode.

00:58:42.630 –> 00:58:57.720
Sarah McDowell: And it doesn’t I and it took some time. I mean, wear a year on now and we’ve reached I think we’ve just been 7000 total downloads and we get, I don’t know, this would be being very transparent and I don’t know about your guys numbers, but

00:58:58.080 –> 00:59:00.360
Jeff Louella: And millions, millions

00:59:01.020 –> 00:59:02.100
Sarah McDowell: Millions admit that same as

00:59:03.120 –> 00:59:07.260
Sarah McDowell: We get around 150 to about 300 people

00:59:08.430 –> 00:59:16.500
Sarah McDowell: per episode sort of thing and and it has been hard to grow it. And at first it is just your mom listening and

00:59:16.860 –> 00:59:26.760
Sarah McDowell: Every episode. My mom would like what’s that mean okay podcast. I don’t know what you’re quite talking about but you sounded. Wonderful. Um, but yeah and so

00:59:27.660 –> 00:59:39.450
Sarah McDowell: It was it was hard, but we just put the time and effort into it and you do lie. You do have to think outside the box of how to get your podcast underneath people so

00:59:39.810 –> 00:59:54.120
Sarah McDowell: I spent plenty and evening, just on LinkedIn messaging people about the podcast or another way was like inviting people with whoever who already have a following to come on, because then you’re like okay there.

00:59:54.750 –> 01:00:02.940
Sarah McDowell: And that has helped I think peaks and valleys numbers and we mentioned recently did some research. So we did

01:00:03.960 –> 01:00:17.880
Sarah McDowell: Research based around local SEO where we were talking to those who market local businesses and we wanted to understand, like, day to day activities and challenges. And so we did a survey I have paid as well, like I did some paid advertising.

01:00:19.200 –> 01:00:25.290
Sarah McDowell: So yes, getting listeners is hard, especially at the beginning and

01:00:26.340 –> 01:00:37.470
Sarah McDowell: If I believe that if your podcast is entertaining educational people are going to just not shit, basically, people are going to want to listen.

01:00:38.160 –> 01:00:50.970
Sarah McDowell: And stuff and other challenges is so obviously it is a side hustle. So you have to factor in okay when recording editing and there’s the research that goes in as the

01:00:51.720 –> 01:01:07.590
Sarah McDowell: Sort of talking to your guests when they’re going to come on. So there is a lot. At first, I was a bit naive and I was like, be easy. No, it wouldn’t take much time at all. Just sit in front of a microphone do bit talking and jobs are good and I was wrong.

01:01:08.910 –> 01:01:15.810
Sarah McDowell: It’s a lot more than just that. And I’m say I’m guessing you guys can relate to that. Like the wackier

01:01:16.740 –> 01:01:24.540
Jeff Louella: I mean, I go, I go to iTunes all the time or the podcast app now and just type in SEO and then waiting for us to the show up there.

01:01:25.440 –> 01:01:40.770
Jeff Louella: In the top you know 50 at least. And I think it’s new to me in the SEO side of things, right, because it’s working on Google working on, you know, just search engines in general for a while that now trying to like get a podcast to rank in a podcast app.

01:01:42.120 –> 01:01:57.360
Jeff Louella: It’s not you know is I, I’m still learning right and we still haven’t cracked that nut to there’s some think there’s one podcasts that has like three episodes but ranks like number three in the podcast app for some reason on iTunes and it’s like, why are you there like you have

01:01:58.050 –> 01:02:11.670
Jeff Louella: Four years and you only put three episodes, only one of them had to do with SEO, but yet you rank up there so I’m hoping like the new podcasts how apples breaking it out, out of iTunes now gets a better algorithm that update those

01:02:11.880 –> 01:02:28.050
Jeff Louella: Those, I think, some are trash and there’s no way to really, I’m not going to negative attack and other and other podcasts, but the same time i like i you know we’re really trying to focus on getting our like hey, leave a review, you know, follow us certainly subscribe and things like that.

01:02:28.770 –> 01:02:36.180
Sarah McDowell: How awesome is it when I say when we got our first ever review. Oh my gosh, it was like champagne at the ready because

01:02:36.840 –> 01:02:43.140
Sarah McDowell: And that was, that’s a little bit. So when you first doing the podcast and you, you have no idea how

01:02:43.440 –> 01:02:59.310
Sarah McDowell: Like how it’s going really, like, yes, you can look at numbers. And how many people are listening, but it’s not until you get reviews or even like people reaching out saying I this is an awesome podcast I remember the first time we’ve got an email.

01:03:00.510 –> 01:03:13.650
Sarah McDowell: And I yeah i i lost. I lost it because I was like, Oh my God, but it’s like when people are saying good stuff about your podcast and that gives you more reason doesn’t it to carry on.

01:03:16.110 –> 01:03:16.830
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, definitely.

01:03:17.160 –> 01:03:26.010
Jeff Louella: So we’re gonna wrap this up and be respectful of everybody’s time but we used to. We usually ask a question at the end of every podcast and

01:03:27.360 –> 01:03:41.010
Jeff Louella: Would this is going to be the question this time. So it’s usually about what kind of advice would you give we usually make a general about SEO, but I want to make it more about podcasting. So what would be one piece of advice you would give someone who wanted to start a podcast.

01:03:42.660 –> 01:03:46.350
Jeff Louella: Tomorrow, you know, what was the first thing or the best piece of advice you can give them

01:03:46.830 –> 01:04:01.740
Sarah McDowell: Make sure is the topic that you’re passionate about and you really can get your teeth stuck into it and you just going to live and believe it because if you’re not passionate about something, you’re just not going to make it work and

01:04:03.210 –> 01:04:09.990
Sarah McDowell: That is the top. And yeah, just make it, make it educational make it fun. Don’t be shared and yeah

01:04:11.640 –> 01:04:12.420
Sarah McDowell: A bit swearing.

01:04:12.750 –> 01:04:14.220
Jeff Louella: I already filled that I don’t

01:04:14.340 –> 01:04:16.350
Jacob Stoops: Care about. Don’t be no good life.

01:04:17.760 –> 01:04:18.300
Jeff Louella: Is good life.

01:04:22.200 –> 01:04:32.460
Sarah McDowell: And but yeah and I mean yeah and I mean I’m I would definitely recommend if you want to do a podcast, definitely do it because you just get like for this conversation right now.

01:04:33.180 –> 01:04:42.270
Sarah McDowell: It’s been amazing. And your gut guys podcast in is so good in I was a bit nervous when you invited me onto yours because I thought, Oh my gosh, I’m gonna have to really work.

01:04:43.080 –> 01:04:44.220
Jeff Louella: We don’t know what we’re doing. We’re just

01:04:44.520 –> 01:04:45.450
Jeff Louella: winging it all the time.

01:04:46.950 –> 01:05:01.890
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, definitely, if you want to start podcast tomorrow. Just make sure you’ve got a topic that you’re passionate about and you’ve got a lie and spend a bit of time on your graphic as well. I’d say that because you need that to like popped in here in the

01:05:03.930 –> 01:05:21.360
Sarah McDowell: Search and format as well. I think of a format. So we, for example, our format is we will have a feature it at the end to make it like fun, and it’s normally Hannah testimony on like my general knowledge which I have no no so

01:05:23.100 –> 01:05:26.880
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, I mean, I think I gave more than one bit of advice there. Sorry.

01:05:27.300 –> 01:05:39.870
Jeff Louella: That’s good bonus. Bonus material. Yeah. Awesome. Love. Love. The. I want to thank you for coming on the show. It’s been great. We’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I was typing the Jake eggs like I could talk to people from the UK all day.

01:05:42.930 –> 01:05:47.100
Jeff Louella: I just love it. But, uh, yeah, thanks for coming on the show and

01:05:48.240 –> 01:05:51.690
Jeff Louella: Everyone else like I’m not sure where this is coming out, but I’m happy holidays. Yeah.

01:05:51.870 –> 01:06:01.860
Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be coming out in a few weeks. We’re trying. We’ve had some scheduling snafu we’re trying to space out the the episodes. So we’re recording three episodes in one

01:06:02.460 –> 01:06:12.120
Jacob Stoops: Week. But nonetheless, go and connect with Sarah go find her podcast. Listen, listen, listen, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on.

01:06:12.660 –> 01:06:13.800
Sarah McDowell: Thank you very much for having me.

01:06:14.520 –> 01:06:16.290
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye everybody. Thank you.

#34: Casie Gillette

Episode Summary

We talk with Casie Gillette, Sr. Director of Digital at KoMarketing. We discuss:
  • How she got her start in marketing working for an online dating site in the mid 2000s literally handing out flyers in clubs, which actually led to her first SEO job which is ultimately where she fell in love with it
  • How she got to KoMarketing, how she left and then boomeranged right back
  • In-house versus agency
  • Her biggest SEO challenges
  • Convincing clients to get recommendations implemented
  • How she learned to be a confident public speaker
  • The recent SEO’s are assholes kerfuffle
  • The importance of SEO training and education

And much more.

Episode Transcript

00:00:01.260 –> 00:00:11.219
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops here again with the Page 2 Podcast and I am joined by Mr. Jeff Louella. Jeff, how’s it going?

00:00:11.759 –> 00:00:12.690
Jeff Louella: Hey everybody. How you doing?

00:00:13.590 –> 00:00:15.839
Jacob Stoops: Good. Jeff you changed it up that time.

00:00:15.900 –> 00:00:16.410
Jeff Louella: Yeah.

00:00:16.560 –> 00:00:17.970
Jacob Stoops: We, it’s like, Hey, how are you, hey,

00:00:18.750 –> 00:00:21.210
Jacob Stoops: Hey, like out. What is it out Borland

00:00:24.360 –> 00:00:27.000
Jacob Stoops: And yeah, that’s funny. We’re getting better.

00:00:27.240 –> 00:00:28.920
Jeff Louella: You’re getting better. And now I’m trying to figure it out.

00:00:29.730 –> 00:00:34.770
Jacob Stoops: And we are also joined by Casie Gillette, how’s it going, Casie.

00:00:35.040 –> 00:00:38.820
Casie Gillette: Hey, howdy, I think you’re too old time reference might be overlooked.

00:00:42.030 –> 00:00:43.260
Casie Gillette: Cast. Yeah.

00:00:44.190 –> 00:00:46.260
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, Jeff reminds of Al Borland

00:00:46.920 –> 00:00:48.210
Jeff Louella: Yeah, his

00:00:48.240 –> 00:00:49.980
Jacob Stoops: Side hobbies, and he’s do-gooder.

00:00:50.430 –> 00:00:50.640

00:00:52.770 –> 00:00:53.520
Jeff Louella: Just like out

00:00:53.640 –> 00:01:10.380
Jacob Stoops: Um, so, Casie is the Senior Director of digital at KoMarketing and is really awesome guests. I’ve said this, I think, to a few guests. So I don’t want you to feel like you’re not at all special because you are special and

00:01:10.650 –> 00:01:11.610
Casie Gillette: You sound like my mother.

00:01:11.820 –> 00:01:12.540

00:01:13.590 –> 00:01:14.520
Jeff Louella: Very special

00:01:14.970 –> 00:01:24.750
Jacob Stoops: But know when we were setting out to when I was setting out over a year ago to do this podcast. And when we kind of sat down for for season two.

00:01:25.350 –> 00:01:35.940
Jacob Stoops: You are definitely on the on the list of people that we wanted to talk to in in there’s a there’s a massive like we basically want to talk to everybody in SEO, but but

00:01:35.970 –> 00:01:38.070
Casie Gillette: It does really, really making me feel good here.

00:01:40.440 –> 00:01:41.370
We’re definitely

00:01:42.480 –> 00:01:46.620
Casie Gillette: I made Season two. That’s exciting. Thank you for having me. Yes. You made it to season to

00:01:46.860 –> 00:01:48.330
Jeff Louella: Meet you in

00:01:48.360 –> 00:01:54.900
Jacob Stoops: Season Season one was entirely just me trying to figure figure stuff out live on the internet. So anyways,

00:01:55.680 –> 00:01:58.290
Casie Gillette: That’s our job. That’s our job is search marketers anyway.

00:01:58.530 –> 00:02:07.920
Jacob Stoops: Well, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s basically 25 hours of me just gabbing gabbing online and I decided to bring Jeff in to talk with me so

00:02:08.430 –> 00:02:09.240
Jeff Louella: Just for my intro

00:02:09.840 –> 00:02:10.470
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:02:10.500 –> 00:02:12.840
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. So in terms of what we’re going to be

00:02:12.840 –> 00:02:26.010
Jacob Stoops: Covering today. So we’ve got a great agenda, first and foremost, we’re going to talk to. Casie about her background and then we are going to cover a little bit of SEO news, surprise, surprise, there was another kerfuffle in the industry.

00:02:26.550 –> 00:02:31.980
Jacob Stoops: Always industry seems to always have a kerfuffle probably once or twice a week.

00:02:32.730 –> 00:02:39.420
Jacob Stoops: That will talk about a little bit of drama and then at the end of the show. If anybody has stuck around to the end.

00:02:39.960 –> 00:02:48.240
Jacob Stoops: We’re going to talk about building a team and SEO training and how to go about that and the importance of doing that.

00:02:49.200 –> 00:03:11.550
Jacob Stoops: So definitely, definitely a great agenda today so Casie, the hallmark of the show, kind of like we’re superheroes is the the origin story of great SEOs and the the backgrounds, the trials. The tribulations. Um, so tell us about yourself. How did you get into SEO and just, who are you

00:03:11.820 –> 00:03:24.930
Casie Gillette: Yeah, loaded question. Um, you know, I was one of those people who didn’t know what SEO was we didn’t know what it was in 2005 I’d never heard of it. You know, I was out of college, I was bartending.

00:03:25.380 –> 00:03:31.200
Casie Gillette: thought, gosh, I guess I should probably get a job in marketing. My parents paid a lot of money for my college education.

00:03:31.920 –> 00:03:44.760
Casie Gillette: And a guy that I knew that that I had just met through the bar had approached me about this job in marketing. I was like okay well what it ended up being was. It was an online dating site.

00:03:45.210 –> 00:03:55.200
Casie Gillette: And but this is 2005 so like online dating wasn’t really a thing. And what we had to do was go out to clubs and hand out flyers for

00:03:56.220 –> 00:04:03.930
Casie Gillette: Dating site, which is awful. Right. That’s just an awful job but fast forward about six months I had stopped doing that, after

00:04:04.410 –> 00:04:14.610
Casie Gillette: Month, I think. And he reached back out and said, Hey, I have this job. We have another job doing SEO. Are you interested. And I said, I don’t know what that is but sure.

00:04:15.330 –> 00:04:28.230
Casie Gillette: And that was it. You know, I was so fortunate because the company that I ended up working for at the time was huge. They were about 150 people in it had people like Jenni Halas and Garrett French and Andy Beal

00:04:28.890 –> 00:04:31.470
Casie Gillette: These people in JP Sherman these people that you know

00:04:32.460 –> 00:04:42.090
Casie Gillette: As these you know industry thought leaders. Well, that’s where they also started out. So I had these amazing people to train me and to teach me. You know what SEO is and

00:04:42.690 –> 00:04:56.520
Casie Gillette: I think like most of us, I just fell in love, you know, you start doing it like, Wow, this is this is exciting and it changes and that’s cool. And, you know, here we are 1314 years later, whatever year it is. Now, I don’t know.

00:04:57.660 –> 00:04:59.400
Jacob Stoops: I hear that it’s going to be 2020

00:04:59.580 –> 00:05:00.420
Jacob Stoops: Oh, that’s

00:05:01.770 –> 00:05:04.020
Jacob Stoops: A new decade or still the same decade people

00:05:04.020 –> 00:05:04.410
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:05:04.470 –> 00:05:06.210
Casie Gillette: No, no, it’s tricky.

00:05:06.600 –> 00:05:14.850
Jacob Stoops: So how did you get to KoMarketing and not only then, how did you kind of climb the ladder to senior director

00:05:15.150 –> 00:05:17.280
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, just run

00:05:18.930 –> 00:05:24.330
Casie Gillette: I had when I was down in Carolina. I was ready to move up, back, back up north. I was like, I gotta South here.

00:05:24.900 –> 00:05:34.980
Casie Gillette: So I applied to a job at KoMarketing actually and I just, I loved what I loved what they had to offer. Well, at the time, there were only three other people

00:05:35.430 –> 00:05:46.860
Casie Gillette: So I ended up moving up here. There were four of us in total just really small, which was so fun. You know, it was a whole new experience. I went from this big company to a very small company.

00:05:47.400 –> 00:05:58.050
Casie Gillette: And that was really exciting. Now that happened around 2009 2007 2008 right before the economy collapsed.

00:05:58.770 –> 00:06:05.370
Casie Gillette: And you know, we started to lose a lot of client, right, we just didn’t have a lot of business and I was approached to go in house.

00:06:06.180 –> 00:06:09.930
Casie Gillette: Start, you know, start an SEO team there help run the digital marketing team and so

00:06:10.230 –> 00:06:15.210
Casie Gillette: I went and did that for a couple years. And that was really cool. I never thought that I would want to go and house because

00:06:15.480 –> 00:06:20.550
Casie Gillette: You know when you’re on the agency side. It’s so fun right there. There’s all these different things always happening.

00:06:21.120 –> 00:06:32.640
Casie Gillette: But the opportunity was really great. You know, I got exposure to like running TV ads and radio ads, you know, building a social team building a community team so that stuff was really fun.

00:06:33.720 –> 00:06:41.010
Casie Gillette: But I stayed in touch with the marketing guys because they were so fantastic. In a few years into that they said, you know, do you want to come back.

00:06:42.630 –> 00:06:50.430
Casie Gillette: I don’t know. And, you know, Derek, who, who runs KoMarketing was like, well, moving the office downtown. I was like okay now I’m listening.

00:06:52.020 –> 00:07:02.130
Casie Gillette: You know, I live in the city. And I always had to drive out there and my whole dream of moving to Boston was I didn’t have to have a car and I didn’t have to drive. Anyway, so he was making my dream come true.

00:07:02.520 –> 00:07:03.090
Jacob Stoops: There it is.

00:07:03.690 –> 00:07:10.350
Casie Gillette: Yeah, so I mean that’s, you know, I’ve kinda, you know, I’ve been at KoMarketing twice. Now, I’ve been back seven years. So a total of 10

00:07:11.880 –> 00:07:26.850
Casie Gillette: And you know, it’s just, it’s been fun to watch. It’s been fun to help grow the company, the guys who run it are fantastic. We have such great people on the team. We’re really meticulous about who we hire and how we hire and I think because of that we’ve been able to be successful.

00:07:27.930 –> 00:07:39.390
Jacob Stoops: So I’m going to apologize in advance because I’m, what I’m hearing is so you were at KoMarketing in then went in house somewhere and then back to KoMarketing.

00:07:39.390 –> 00:07:39.960
Casie Gillette: Correct.

00:07:40.020 –> 00:07:44.010
Jacob Stoops: Okay, because I was thinking I was like wait, you’re at KoMarketing, but you’re also in house.

00:07:44.160 –> 00:07:46.770
Casie Gillette: Yeah, I’m very to I’m multitasking. Yeah.

00:07:46.800 –> 00:07:58.980
Jacob Stoops: OK, so the, it seems like the first time you were doing a lot of off offline TV and radio and and then a little dabbling in in the social space and

00:08:00.000 –> 00:08:07.530
Jacob Stoops: I guess what is so different outside of being downtown different this time in terms of like your role.

00:08:07.800 –> 00:08:20.250
Casie Gillette: Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that was really exciting to me was I got to come in and build a team. And that’s honestly one of my absolute favorite things about my role about this industry.

00:08:21.000 –> 00:08:28.170
Casie Gillette: You know, I do a lot of speaking events. And the reason is, I love that part. Like I just love when someone comes up to you and says,

00:08:28.500 –> 00:08:34.440
Casie Gillette: I’ve never thought about this this way or like, Oh, this is so helpful or, you know, you write a blog posts and someone says,

00:08:34.800 –> 00:08:41.310
Casie Gillette: Oh, I use that and I sent it to my team like it makes you feel like, okay, I’m doing this for a reason.

00:08:41.940 –> 00:08:52.740
Casie Gillette: You know, there’s a rewarding element to it. And as part of coming back. My role here was to build a team who you know we got, I get to teach them SEO. I get to teach them marketing.

00:08:53.370 –> 00:08:59.700
Casie Gillette: And you get to watch them all grow up and become really good marketers and I love that. I think that’s really fun and exciting.

00:09:03.120 –> 00:09:11.370
Jacob Stoops: So have to ask always have to ask this comes up, like every episode, I’m in house or agency.

00:09:12.030 –> 00:09:14.610
Casie Gillette: So I am an agency girl.

00:09:16.260 –> 00:09:31.200
Casie Gillette: I do have to say like there are benefits of being in house one a lot easier. You know you you’ve talked to people who work at agencies I. In fact, I remember when I was coming back to the agency world and

00:09:32.700 –> 00:09:35.040
Casie Gillette: I know it’s like, well, how could she

00:09:37.080 –> 00:09:46.860
Casie Gillette: Like, why don’t you do with clients, but I don’t know like I don’t know about you guys, but I love the challenge, right. I feel like there’s always new challenges and like

00:09:47.130 –> 00:09:58.590
Casie Gillette: When you’re in house you’re only exposed to a minimal amount of things, whereas on the agency side, you know, I have 10 clients. And so I’m seeing all of these different situations.

00:09:59.130 –> 00:10:13.350
Casie Gillette: Just the learning element in the space. We have to keep up. You have to be constantly learning. And I think at the agency side, you get a little more exposure to that because you do have the different things. So for me, if agency, but I certainly understand why people like being in house.

00:10:14.040 –> 00:10:18.780
Jeff Louella: Do you ever feel that you can’t get everything you want to get done.

00:10:18.900 –> 00:10:19.440
Oh, yeah.

00:10:20.550 –> 00:10:21.210
Casie Gillette: Yeah.

00:10:21.420 –> 00:10:26.850
Jeff Louella: We have a set amount of hours where, you know, not sure what that is but you know every

00:10:26.850 –> 00:10:27.960
Jeff Louella: Client is different, but

00:10:28.620 –> 00:10:35.880
Jeff Louella: They’re my I’ve always been an agency. I’ve never been in house and the one thing I always dreamed about was actually being able to just

00:10:36.450 –> 00:10:43.950
Jeff Louella: Sit there and like being internal meetings and hammer own like I have one client who’s blocking right now blocking Google

00:10:44.940 –> 00:10:57.060
Jeff Louella: And and they have been for the last six weeks and their dev teams like, well, we’re just trying to block acts like during the holidays, they’re blocking extra crawlers coming to the site because they’re so fragile.

00:10:57.570 –> 00:10:58.440
Jeff Louella: So sad.

00:10:58.800 –> 00:11:06.660
Jeff Louella: And I just wish I can be in those meetings every day and showing them and I do send reports as don’t know if it gets to the dev team because I’m working with marketing team and

00:11:07.020 –> 00:11:17.100
Jeff Louella: The thing. So sometimes I do dream about being in a house, but, um, but, as you said, like we have 10 different clients. So I just focus my time. Other places where I need it but

00:11:17.400 –> 00:11:23.760
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, and I also found that, you know, working in house was cool because it’s like, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I’m just gonna go do it.

00:11:24.270 –> 00:11:34.500
Casie Gillette: And if you have that autonomy. That’s fantastic. But I was there for three years. And so, and thankfully I did have three different websites that I was working on. But like

00:11:34.860 –> 00:11:45.960
Casie Gillette: If you’re only working on, let’s say one website. And it’s not like a giant e com site. It’s just a, you know, maybe it’s a B2B site, whatever it is, like, there’s only so much you can do.

00:11:46.230 –> 00:11:46.560
Jeff Louella: Yeah.

00:11:46.590 –> 00:11:56.850
Casie Gillette: There’s only so much for me. I started to get a little bored and it was nice because like I said I got exposure to these other things, but it can get a little enough. Yes.

00:11:57.510 –> 00:12:08.160
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I’m sure. I think like you, like you said, You’re an agency girl, I think, like, I don’t know what it, what it is, but I feel like it’s just

00:12:08.970 –> 00:12:15.000
Jacob Stoops: bred into your personality in terms of which side of the fence you you fall on

00:12:15.510 –> 00:12:24.690
Jacob Stoops: Some people tend to lean in house. Some people tend to lean agency for different reasons I’ve said many times I’ve been in both situations and

00:12:25.110 –> 00:12:41.310
Jacob Stoops: For whatever reason, I just tend to thrive more in the agency lifestyle as crazy as it is, it can get. Sometimes I’ve been in house, a couple of times. And each time I, I just, I really didn’t like it.

00:12:42.420 –> 00:12:50.130
Jacob Stoops: Made me. It was a function of just the particular opportunities and what was going on in house at the time.

00:12:51.000 –> 00:13:04.080
Jacob Stoops: But there have been times in my agency life where I’m I think just like Jeff like man, the grass looks really, really green, it would be great just to just to work on one web

00:13:04.530 –> 00:13:13.470
Jacob Stoops: All the time and do it really, really, really well. And then you get on the you get on the in house side and you’re like, Okay, I’m working on this.

00:13:14.730 –> 00:13:16.890
Jacob Stoops: And now what do I do with the rest of my time.

00:13:16.890 –> 00:13:17.850
Casie Gillette: Right, but

00:13:18.390 –> 00:13:29.010
Jacob Stoops: It is nice to be able to like have in developed close relationships with a lot of different stakeholders within the, within the company like it’s nice to

00:13:29.670 –> 00:13:37.170
Jacob Stoops: For example, in my last last role, I was able to just get up and walk two desks over and say, hey,

00:13:37.770 –> 00:13:49.770
Jacob Stoops: Aaron, who was a developer, like I’m trying to get this thing implemented, but like, I’m seeing this error and he would fix it on the spot and go okay great that’ll get pushed live tonight and stuff like that was

00:13:50.370 –> 00:13:57.870
Jacob Stoops: Invaluable. And not only that, but just walking down to to another floor to talk with one of the other teams.

00:13:58.260 –> 00:14:09.720
Jacob Stoops: And get an understanding because they handled customers directly and like working directly with them. I mean, there were a couple of times where we work directly with them to actually create pieces of content.

00:14:09.840 –> 00:14:11.220
Jacob Stoops: Yeah subject matter.

00:14:12.480 –> 00:14:18.390
Casie Gillette: That’s like one of my favorite things I talked about that a lot is like when I was in house we talked to the customer support team every week.

00:14:18.780 –> 00:14:29.220
Casie Gillette: Right. And it was so awesome. Knowing here’s what people are asking for. Here’s what they can’t find like here’s what the second yeah so that there are those benefits. Yeah, but

00:14:29.580 –> 00:14:40.110
Jacob Stoops: Like I said, I just, I made for agency. I like the I like the challenge. I like the diversity and I feel as if

00:14:41.520 –> 00:14:44.130
Jacob Stoops: The competition with other agencies.

00:14:45.480 –> 00:14:51.420
Jacob Stoops: In addition to the competition with your clients and their competitors. Yeah, really.

00:14:51.750 –> 00:15:00.480
Jacob Stoops: Really drives me. I come from a sports background so I’m super competitive and not to say that if you don’t come from other backgrounds. You’re not competitive, but I feel like for me that’s

00:15:00.870 –> 00:15:08.100
Jacob Stoops: Plays plays into it. So like I i like to win. And for me, I can see is giving me the best chance to kind of

00:15:09.510 –> 00:15:11.100
Jacob Stoops: Scratch that competitive edge.

00:15:11.190 –> 00:15:13.140
Casie Gillette: Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel.

00:15:14.340 –> 00:15:18.180
Jacob Stoops: So you do public speaking. What’s, what’s that look

00:15:19.410 –> 00:15:19.680
Casie Gillette: Like

00:15:21.270 –> 00:15:33.390
Casie Gillette: Well, no, it’s fun. Honestly, um, I don’t know. I don’t even remember how I got into it, or why, but I just know like once I was up there. I was like, oh yeah, this is for me.

00:15:34.890 –> 00:15:36.630
Casie Gillette: There’s just something to be said about

00:15:38.070 –> 00:15:50.940
Casie Gillette: You know, you’re being in front of your peers and having them listen. It makes you have to up your game. I never ever ever want to go to a conference and disappoint people

00:15:51.630 –> 00:16:03.690
Casie Gillette: And because of that, I think it’s really forced me to make sure that I’m talking about the right things. I’m learning the right things. I’m focused on the things I’m passionate about. I think that’s a huge one.

00:16:04.950 –> 00:16:16.110
Casie Gillette: When I first started speaking I talked about link building about a year into that. I was like, if I have to talk about link building one more time. I’m going to jump off the stage. Like, I can’t, I can’t talk about it anymore.

00:16:17.100 –> 00:16:26.970
Casie Gillette: But I needed to find something else that I was passionate about right and and also you have to find something that not everyone else is saying, although there’s a lot of it right

00:16:28.110 –> 00:16:36.540
Casie Gillette: That in the space, and I’m sure I’ve done it, too. But I just, I just love it. I love what the camaraderie of conferences.

00:16:36.960 –> 00:16:53.730
Casie Gillette: I will say that I have made some amazing friends through conferences that I go on vacation with now that I talked to you in real life that have become like close lifelong friends that are never would have gotten to do that without speaking. So it’s just fun. I just really like it.

00:16:54.540 –> 00:17:02.340
Jacob Stoops: Have you do you get nervous or you just one of those natural, natural because like I feel like it was

00:17:03.630 –> 00:17:15.120
Jacob Stoops: All a couple of couple of guests ago I can’t remember exactly who it was. Alicia or Leisha Anderson or Andrea Bergman, it was like, Nope, I just stepped right up there and it’s it’s easy.

00:17:15.180 –> 00:17:20.310
Casie Gillette: It’s nice. I get nervous. Yeah, there’s a moment not I’m not nervous like

00:17:21.120 –> 00:17:31.770
Casie Gillette: A day before I’m nervous for like that 20 minutes before, but the moment that I’m on the stage. It’s fine. Totally fine. Like the moment that I’m up there. Your adrenaline’s poverty, like, all right, I’m in

00:17:32.460 –> 00:17:37.620
Casie Gillette: And you can’t be nervous up there. So, but, yeah, there’s about I usually don’t eat before I can

00:17:39.030 –> 00:17:39.960
Casie Gillette: Just gotta go.

00:17:41.610 –> 00:17:42.270
Jacob Stoops: It. Go ahead, Jeff.

00:17:42.300 –> 00:17:46.590
Jeff Louella: I’ll just say I don’t speak a ton bone. I do. I usually start off with the dad joke.

00:17:49.050 –> 00:17:54.270
Jeff Louella: When the crowd. As soon as I get them the laugh. And I’m like, all right, I’m good. But, but if they don’t laugh. I’m like, Oh, no.

00:17:57.780 –> 00:17:58.980
Jeff Louella: Luckily I’m so good. They always

00:18:00.240 –> 00:18:02.190
Jeff Louella: Get the greatest dad. Exactly.

00:18:03.030 –> 00:18:10.980
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I have this I have this thing and it’s sometimes applies to speaking, but mostly singing in public, where

00:18:12.690 –> 00:18:29.250
Jacob Stoops: It’s literally like, like you said 20 minutes before I’m set to like go on and go on. It’s not like I sing in like these massive arenas or anything. My wife and I sing it a benefit concert every, every color. Yeah, yeah, it is cool.

00:18:30.450 –> 00:18:43.920
Jacob Stoops: But even as small as the as the venue is I have this thing where, when I go on for about the 20 minutes before and even sometimes as

00:18:44.850 –> 00:18:55.530
Jacob Stoops: As close to performing as literally like the song comes on and I’m about three seconds from having to open my mouth. Forget all the lyrics, they just go out of my head.

00:18:55.980 –> 00:19:10.290
Jacob Stoops: Really, yeah. Yeah, it’s like a complete blackout really like scary because like there are times when I’m standing out there. And all I’m thinking is not how well I need to sing more like what do I say

00:19:10.350 –> 00:19:11.640
Casie Gillette: What am I even thinking

00:19:11.880 –> 00:19:21.960
Jacob Stoops: What am I singing and then then the music comes on and I’m still I’m starting to panic. Now, like Panic, panic. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. And then finally,

00:19:22.950 –> 00:19:32.190
Jacob Stoops: I remember like it was yesterday. I opened my mouth words came out and they were the right words and I went along by I went along my merry way and

00:19:32.670 –> 00:19:49.350
Jacob Stoops: For anybody that has that kind of public phobia. The idea of public speaking can be nauseating like nauseating. So I guess what advice would you give to people that struggle with the idea of getting up in front of their peers.

00:19:49.500 –> 00:20:00.630
Casie Gillette: Well, what I was gonna say was, I mean what you just talked about is just the benefit of muscle memory, right, like we talked about practicing. I know there’s people who will say, like, you know, I don’t practice my presentations. I do.

00:20:01.020 –> 00:20:05.190
Casie Gillette: I run through them like you know me I don’t I try not to go, word for word, but like

00:20:05.580 –> 00:20:20.250
Casie Gillette: I run through that thing 20 times because I want to know that when I get out there that if something goes wrong, right, if I can’t see my slides. If there’s technical errors or whatever’s going on, you know, whether it’s fear or whatever that I still know my materials.

00:20:21.450 –> 00:20:29.370
Casie Gillette: But one of the things we do here is we start getting people like some of the trainings that we do involve people giving presentations.

00:20:29.760 –> 00:20:35.760
Casie Gillette: Because you’re only in front of maybe five people or 10 people or whatever it is you start small.

00:20:36.300 –> 00:20:45.000
Casie Gillette: I tell anyone you know who’s looking to get into public speaking. Look at a local event like I started just doing word camps that were here in Boston.

00:20:45.480 –> 00:21:02.220
Casie Gillette: Events like that, or just like local SEO meetups where you know people give you an opportunity new speakers, they’re expecting new speakers, where you don’t. They don’t care if you mess up, right. Those are the things that that for me, it’s like know your material and start small.

00:21:04.350 –> 00:21:12.990
Jeff Louella: You have done a couple when I used to live in Philadelphia and we had a pretty vibrant SEO Meetup group. They’re called SEO grill and

00:21:13.500 –> 00:21:21.270
Jeff Louella: I got to speak there a couple times and I do small events. A lot of times I used to run a homebrew club making beer.

00:21:21.960 –> 00:21:30.150
Jeff Louella: So I would I would do presentation. Yeah, you know, a it was funny when I decided to start a club. I was like, I don’t want to do work after work.

00:21:30.930 –> 00:21:40.650
Jeff Louella: And I enjoyed the air and me, my friends who started brewing were like, you know, we want to meet other people to do it. And then we started a club and then that grew to 300 people

00:21:40.950 –> 00:21:46.920
Jeff Louella: My guy, and it was insane. Like we were just at this one bar on the Tuesday night would just be packed to the gills.

00:21:47.580 –> 00:22:03.030
Jeff Louella: The guy would never have any traffic on the Tuesday night before, and so it was a good time. But from there. I learned a lot of just, again, if you know your material like if I talked about SEO or if I talked about home brewing, I can. I don’t need slides, I can just talk about it, but

00:22:04.530 –> 00:22:10.530
Jeff Louella: But yeah, when you’re in front of a bunch of people, it can be be scary. So, but where did you get from like

00:22:12.090 –> 00:22:19.380
Jeff Louella: The confidence. You know, you start off bartending. You’re saying, and then now 10 years later, you’re in stage, you know, Mosque on

00:22:20.640 –> 00:22:26.100
Jeff Louella: And then there’s many of us who’ve been doing SEO just as long. And, you know, haven’t gotten past the meetup groups.

00:22:26.160 –> 00:22:27.570
Jeff Louella: Yeah, so

00:22:27.960 –> 00:22:41.310
Casie Gillette: Honestly, I again I’ve just been really lucky, like the support of the community, I would say. So even when I first started doing like I did an SMS show and it I

00:22:41.970 –> 00:22:49.380
Casie Gillette: One of the benefits. I was working in house right and I do think there’s a benefit when you’re in house that if you’re looking to speak, they’re more open to having you right

00:22:49.500 –> 00:22:50.820
Jeff Louella: Now big brand behind. Yes.

00:22:50.880 –> 00:23:00.030
Casie Gillette: Yep. And so that was really helpful. But at that show I met a couple people, you know, Elizabeth awesome Alaska who worked for third door for a long time. Greg Finn.

00:23:00.600 –> 00:23:10.590
Casie Gillette: There, people who just became my friends, but they also were these huge support systems. And so they were encouraging me to start writing for Search Engine Land. Right. So they got me doing that.

00:23:11.280 –> 00:23:23.100
Casie Gillette: You know, they would encourage they would help me with my pitches. Right. So I’ve just been really lucky I think in that the people that I have surrounded myself with or gotten to know have all been so supportive

00:23:23.790 –> 00:23:28.620
Casie Gillette: You know, even I was doing. I got invited to do search love one year in London.

00:23:29.100 –> 00:23:37.440
Casie Gillette: And a friend of mine, Aaron Friedman, who I had met through another show like we spent the night before our sessions just practicing with one another.

00:23:37.860 –> 00:23:42.900
Casie Gillette: And so, those kinds of things. Just, just really help. I don’t know. I’m not a shy person.

00:23:43.860 –> 00:23:55.530
Casie Gillette: I think that that makes the biggest difference is I know people in the industry will talk about, you know, I’m very introverted, or I’m very extroverted like I am an extrovert. I just very much am I enjoy being around people.

00:23:56.280 –> 00:24:08.400
Casie Gillette: I like conferences, I’d like being in crowds. So that part I think certainly helps because you know when you’re just out there just being loud, like I am. I don’t know if that helps or not, but

00:24:09.450 –> 00:24:25.830
Jacob Stoops: Funny. My wife is exactly like that, and I am. She is like the type of person that never met a person that she couldn’t talk to and like immediately make them like her, and be her friend and I am like, I’m a nice person, but I am

00:24:26.550 –> 00:24:35.550
Jacob Stoops: The opposite where like when I get into big crowds situations. It makes me like twitchy uncomfortable super uncomfortable.

00:24:36.840 –> 00:24:40.230
Jacob Stoops: Which is the yeah I then find it odd that I choose to do a

00:24:40.500 –> 00:24:42.300
Casie Gillette: Podcast right out there.

00:24:42.570 –> 00:24:51.780
Casie Gillette: Talking to people. I mean, I will say this, like, I don’t love I’ll be the first to say that I don’t love networking events like where you’re just with a whole bunch of strangers, but like

00:24:52.140 –> 00:24:59.100
Casie Gillette: I just like myself up for it. So you just, I just get mentally prepared and then you’re just you’re in, you know, I’m fine. Once I’m in it, but

00:25:00.900 –> 00:25:02.460
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I mean, it was tough moving like

00:25:03.540 –> 00:25:09.570
Jeff Louella: I know you. It seems like you’ve moved around a little bit, but I lived in Philadelphia for 42 years

00:25:09.990 –> 00:25:17.040
Jeff Louella: Wow started to move to Atlanta and pick up the family and move and it was really tough for my wife at first.

00:25:17.520 –> 00:25:26.280
Jeff Louella: But she is that type of person to you can put her in a room, she starts chatting with people and I think she’s actually impressed herself with how she can. She’s like 1000 friends now.

00:25:27.300 –> 00:25:30.180
Jeff Louella: And and the ones in there going, like I have a couple people. I kind of talk to you.

00:25:31.620 –> 00:25:37.350
Jeff Louella: I’m still I’m like texts with my friends back home, but it’s and she’s out every night, so it’s it’s interesting how

00:25:37.350 –> 00:25:37.800
Casie Gillette: I

00:25:37.950 –> 00:25:41.010
Jeff Louella: Put yourself in that position, and then you can like, get out there. Yeah.

00:25:41.190 –> 00:25:43.320
Jacob Stoops: You don’t it, Jeff, you’ll have a few more friends.

00:25:43.650 –> 00:25:45.660
Jeff Louella: Yeah. That’s what the internet’s great

00:25:48.270 –> 00:25:56.190
Jacob Stoops: So Casie, what are some of the biggest challenges that you run into operating in the agency world.

00:25:57.150 –> 00:26:12.870
Casie Gillette: Um, I mean, I do think, you know, it just thinking about the team, you know, thinking about hiring. It’s so competitive right now, you know, especially, you know, we’re a smaller agency. There’s a little under 30 a few of like 30 of us.

00:26:13.920 –> 00:26:21.720
Casie Gillette: And when you’re trying to hire that like 123 years person. It is like just a battle.

00:26:22.320 –> 00:26:28.650
Casie Gillette: Axe and especially here in Boston, where there’s a ton of companies and a ton of tech companies and even just a ton of agencies, right.

00:26:28.890 –> 00:26:38.100
Casie Gillette: A lot of the big digital, you know, the big agencies, you have like digital us and you know those places who are now trying to get in the game, and they’re willing to pay a lot more

00:26:38.430 –> 00:26:43.650
Casie Gillette: To have those 123 years like I think hiring has certainly been a challenge. And we’ve been really lucky.

00:26:44.370 –> 00:26:51.060
Casie Gillette: Make our team is amazing. We’ve been able to get some really good people in, but then you have people who are constantly recruiting them away.

00:26:51.960 –> 00:26:56.070
Casie Gillette: So it’s like a battle. It’s like such a battle right now from that perspective.

00:26:57.000 –> 00:27:09.780
Casie Gillette: But then you have clients and you know to Geoff’s point earlier, there’s only so much time right there’s only so much time, you only have so many resources. I have a client right now that I adore. I love them to death.

00:27:10.800 –> 00:27:21.930
Casie Gillette: Unfortunately, when the search results changed in June with that big update. They weren’t penalized. But what happened was the search results themselves shifted so much

00:27:22.290 –> 00:27:30.870
Casie Gillette: That they went from being in you know the position one at the top of the page that didn’t have a lot of elements to now they’re

00:27:31.260 –> 00:27:43.620
Casie Gillette: In position to be ahead of them are now sponsored products and a map and the Knowledge Graph and people also asked box and so their traffic just tanked. And when you see that like

00:27:44.070 –> 00:27:55.290
Casie Gillette: It’s just gut wrenching because, you know, like I’m doing everything I can to help this client, but I can’t get them back there, right, like unless those search results change like I can’t get them back there.

00:27:55.980 –> 00:28:01.650
Casie Gillette: So that stuff is is just, it’s so challenging and frustrating because you have these clients that you love and you want to help them but

00:28:01.980 –> 00:28:12.450
Casie Gillette: Sometimes you just have to say like we have to change our, we have to change our strategy right and i mean like a complete one need to change our strategy. So I think that that’s a tough one.

00:28:13.170 –> 00:28:25.650
Jeff Louella: I mean it’s tougher all these days with Google putting so many other elements on the page. Besides that, besides just organic and it is surprising. Sometimes when I still do well. And there are other things on that page.

00:28:26.370 –> 00:28:33.090
Jeff Louella: But you know Google’s tracking all that, too. So they’re also going to be changing those features around a lot. Yeah. And I do

00:28:33.660 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: You know, I think it’s really important to start spreading out into other mediums.

00:28:37.470 –> 00:28:46.200
Jeff Louella: Cuz you’re going to have video links are going to have image links and it’s like if we don’t optimize our images or maybe add videos like those are areas we can get to

00:28:46.560 –> 00:28:56.670
Jeff Louella: I think figuring out a track it all is another aspect. Um, but, but one of those is like there’s gonna be 10 listings above you, that are just not organic. And how do we get into those listings

00:28:56.940 –> 00:28:59.670
Casie Gillette: Right, and even, like, you know, for that same client. I mean,

00:29:00.090 –> 00:29:11.520
Casie Gillette: One of the first things we did. We’re like, All right, let’s get like FAQ schema on the site right like they have FAQs the search results are showing FAQs. Like, let’s get this up. Let’s test it. Let’s see what that can do so.

00:29:11.730 –> 00:29:24.780
Casie Gillette: We’re really trying everything we can think of here to help with that. But sometimes you know there’s there’s only so much that we can do. But yeah, I love your like, but like you have to diversify. Some people just don’t want to hear that, though.

00:29:25.590 –> 00:29:34.050
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and it’s hard to diversify. Right. I mean, one reason when Jacob asked me to come on to the podcast was like something I always wanted to do, but I know it’s a lot of work to do it.

00:29:34.560 –> 00:29:39.780
Jeff Louella: And it’s like there’s a whole bunch of new algorithms. I got to learn because it’s like to get your, you know, a podcast even

00:29:40.170 –> 00:29:50.730
Jeff Louella: Show up like it’s learning right it’s like you on iTunes. We don’t show up yet. But there’s ones out there that haven’t been talked like having the three episodes and haven’t been uploaded in 10 years entered like number four.

00:29:51.810 –> 00:29:58.140
Jeff Louella: It’s like why so that’s not the that’s not Google. I feel like if it was Google. I don’t understand it but

00:29:58.170 –> 00:29:58.530

00:29:59.880 –> 00:30:01.740
Jeff Louella: Exactly so. So

00:30:01.830 –> 00:30:13.860
Jacob Stoops: When people don’t want to hear it. How do you approach that because I feel like I’ve said it like 80 million times the implementation, especially on the agency side is our biggest problem and then

00:30:14.400 –> 00:30:31.800
Jacob Stoops: Changing hearts and hearts and minds and figuring out from a psychological perspective, what can you do or say to get people to kind of come around to your understanding of a situation or the reality of situation, how do you, how do you go about that.

00:30:32.100 –> 00:30:39.600
Casie Gillette: I mean, one thing that I take a lot of pride in. And that, you know, specifically here at KoMarketing is like we have really good relationships with our clients.

00:30:40.140 –> 00:30:50.910
Casie Gillette: You know, I have a client that I’ve worked with since I started here and she’s like her fifth organization and she just brings us with her everywhere she goes, it’s so awesome.

00:30:51.930 –> 00:31:00.510
Casie Gillette: But because of those relationships we are able to be very direct about it, right, like, one of the things that I really do pride myself in is

00:31:00.810 –> 00:31:06.330
Casie Gillette: I’m not. I’m never gonna lie to my clients right so like that example that I told you where search results shifted

00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:15.270
Casie Gillette: You know, I said like, look, we can keep trying to get back, we can keep trying to get back for this keyword all you want, but unless this changes.

00:31:15.600 –> 00:31:22.980
Casie Gillette: There’s nothing that we’re going to be able to do. But here’s the data that shows here are the other things that we can do right so

00:31:23.640 –> 00:31:32.160
Casie Gillette: In fact, one of the one of the girls who works here put together this sheet yesterday, this data set for this client that specifically looks at their competitors.

00:31:32.610 –> 00:31:35.040
Casie Gillette: We’ve been trying to get them to do a couple things.

00:31:35.910 –> 00:31:48.660
Casie Gillette: They’ve been a little bit hesitant to do it. She pulled all this data that’s competitive data search volume data like potential revenue data that now we take that and we present to them like here’s the actual financial impact of doing this.

00:31:49.260 –> 00:31:54.720
Casie Gillette: And I think that helps the one thing I always tell people I’m like just show them competition just show them their competitors.

00:31:55.110 –> 00:32:04.020
Casie Gillette: Like, especially when you’re talking to the C suite. If you show them like here’s what your competitors are doing. They absolutely are always like, Well, why aren’t we doing that.

00:32:05.250 –> 00:32:18.030
Casie Gillette: So I do think that helps is, you know, just just being honest and direct, you know, using the data you have, and, you know, if you can get buy in from from the upper level that that goes such a long way.

00:32:19.110 –> 00:32:25.080
Jacob Stoops: Do you find that they believe their data or the data that you provide them.

00:32:25.200 –> 00:32:33.780
Casie Gillette: I do it. But, you know, the one thing I do like is I think our clients are very smart. That’s actually something that’s changed that’s gone wrong.

00:32:38.970 –> 00:32:40.470
Jacob Stoops: Like I wanted to rewind that the

00:32:42.390 –> 00:32:50.550
Casie Gillette: The one thing that has definitely shifted over the past, you know, seven years, specifically for me being here is our contacts weren’t always

00:32:51.120 –> 00:33:10.890
Casie Gillette: Search savvy and now they are much more savvy when it comes to understanding SEO paid search, whatever it is. So our clients, not only they will question the data if it’s if it’s wrong, or if they have questions, but they understand it. And I think that is really, really helpful.

00:33:11.220 –> 00:33:14.910
Jacob Stoops: What do you think is led to that higher degree of understanding

00:33:15.390 –> 00:33:17.310
Casie Gillette: I mean, I think, just as the guy was so much more well known.

00:33:17.820 –> 00:33:30.420
Casie Gillette: Right. I mean, there’s still people who don’t necessarily know, but you know 10 years ago was like this little thing that maybe someone did. And it was such a niche. Whereas now, it’s a thing that they teach in college, which is amazing.

00:33:30.930 –> 00:33:34.740
Casie Gillette: But I think there’s just so much more awareness of it and people who who need to understand it.

00:33:35.130 –> 00:33:52.500
Jacob Stoops: You guys ever like I like even five years ago, I had never once on in like a traditional medium heard anybody like refer to SEO. So it was like the thing that I do for my living is like this super

00:33:53.160 –> 00:34:10.860
Jacob Stoops: Secret sort of thing to the to the public. And now, like I’m driving around done listening to in I’m in Columbus, so it’s 97 when the fan my sports radio and when you start to get the commercials in the ads there a company’s advertising SEO services. And I’m like,

00:34:11.880 –> 00:34:21.900
Jacob Stoops: Holy crap, this is becoming more mainstream whereas five years ago, like, no, you never saw it. I even today I’m ups. I’m upstairs and I’ve got a TV.

00:34:22.470 –> 00:34:35.580
Jacob Stoops: That can play I can play the YouTube and YouTube ad came on and it was for a digital marketing and SEO company. And I was like, well, about a year ago, I didn’t see much of that going that going on.

00:34:37.080 –> 00:34:39.990
Jacob Stoops: So you’re right it is becoming a little bit more, more.

00:34:40.350 –> 00:34:44.130
Casie Gillette: What we do it was on Jeopardy jeopardy. We’ve made it. Yeah.

00:34:44.880 –> 00:34:45.510
Jeff Louella: Yeah, one of my

00:34:45.600 –> 00:34:53.730
Jeff Louella: Favorite my favorite podcasts is a radio lab. And for the last two months or three months they they’ve been brought to you by wicks

00:34:54.180 –> 00:34:57.960
Jeff Louella: And all they’re talking about his mixes SEO capabilities.

00:34:58.470 –> 00:35:05.130
Jeff Louella: And I’m just like, oh, this is my favorite pocket. Like they their whole podcast is about like breaking things down. I wish they broke their average

00:35:08.490 –> 00:35:19.500
Jacob Stoops: Amy and knowing them, which just shelled out $25,000 to Marie Haines bolting like for winning the the wicks SEO contest and

00:35:19.500 –> 00:35:19.800
Jacob Stoops: Like

00:35:20.280 –> 00:35:28.650
Jacob Stoops: I was like holy shit if I didn’t know there were, there was 25 grand on the line, I would have been like, all right, I’m in. I let me let me get in there but

00:35:29.250 –> 00:35:40.170
Casie Gillette: I you know I appreciate it, that it goes to someone like her, though, who actually knows what she’s doing. Right. That, you know, I think she made a comment today, like, you know, she had eight people working on it for six months or something like

00:35:40.410 –> 00:35:48.600
Casie Gillette: But, you know, you see someone, it’s like okay this is a person that I know is smart. I know knows what they’re doing like better than some, you know, shady person.

00:35:49.110 –> 00:35:59.370
Jeff Louella: Yeah, well, when they ran a competition. Last year I know with a Patrick stocks, he like it was it came down to between him and someone else and

00:36:00.420 –> 00:36:11.940
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a lot of shady stuff going on on on some of those people were being bought and and and that was part of the rules and he couldn’t buy links so i know i don’t think Patrick was I think the guy who won.

00:36:12.330 –> 00:36:14.280
Casie Gillette: The other guy did yeah and it’s

00:36:14.640 –> 00:36:22.500
Jeff Louella: So it is an interesting thing. I give wicks credit because SEO is love like that again, there were competitive so

00:36:22.920 –> 00:36:23.850
Casie Gillette: That they’re on it to

00:36:24.450 –> 00:36:26.190
Jeff Louella: Totally like if we’re not in it. We’re crap.

00:36:27.630 –> 00:36:29.880
Jacob Stoops: I couldn’t believe the size of the font, though, man. I was like,

00:36:29.880 –> 00:36:30.270
Jeff Louella: That

00:36:30.360 –> 00:36:35.130
Jacob Stoops: You’re serious about this 25 G’s. Cool, man. So Jeff,

00:36:36.150 –> 00:36:37.710
Jacob Stoops: Let’s move to the next segment. What’s in

00:36:37.710 –> 00:36:38.250
Jeff Louella: Right.

00:36:38.370 –> 00:36:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Let’s get to the drama.

00:36:39.960 –> 00:36:49.530
Jeff Louella: Yes, more Twitter drama. So there was a post by think I’m gonna probably announce it will just say, Holly cuz she what’s her name on there but

00:36:49.860 –> 00:36:50.310
Jacob Stoops: I think you’re

00:36:50.910 –> 00:36:52.530
Jeff Louella: Blocked yeah girl Ziploc

00:36:52.950 –> 00:36:53.190

00:36:54.480 –> 00:37:02.160
Jeff Louella: But she pretty much came out and was saying in the first two pages of Google never surface any personal blogs or personal websites anymore.

00:37:03.330 –> 00:37:06.810
Jeff Louella: And everything it’s worthwhile like a question, you look at

00:37:08.220 –> 00:37:24.960
Jeff Louella: You know, it’s just being optimized bunch of bunch of SEO assholes. And that was a word to use, and I thought it was awesome. But at the same time right there was like you know as SEO assholes were kind of going out and saying there was a lot of different post out there so

00:37:26.580 –> 00:37:36.270
Jeff Louella: I know someone like Joe Hall, kind of like some of us aren’t assholes. And we took the time to learn the algorithms and stuff. And I think there was a lot of battle going back and forth between

00:37:37.410 –> 00:37:43.260
Jeff Louella: Is someone who is not so familiar with SEO and if I could see you know like you type in

00:37:44.010 –> 00:37:50.160
Jeff Louella: Anything and not anything but anything that’s like a probably a broader keyword. You can have a major company show up for it.

00:37:50.610 –> 00:38:02.820
Jeff Louella: Especially if it’s like something you’re trying to sell you know if you’re typing in iPhone or something like that. Like, you’re going to get a big brand, whether it’s apple or BestBuy or somebody there. And yes, they all have SEOs working for them.

00:38:04.350 –> 00:38:12.990
Jeff Louella: But it was the outrage was kind of interesting with it, where I mean john mule Mueller posted about it like you want to know what people thought

00:38:13.320 –> 00:38:22.500
Jeff Louella: You know bills. Yet all the big name as you guys out there, Bill slough ski, um, you know, there was an interesting conversation. I don’t know what your take, was it on

00:38:23.220 –> 00:38:37.620
Jeff Louella: Jacob, but it was really interesting kind of post between it because I really feel that, yes, there’s big brands out there. I think I understand why there’s big brands out there. I don’t think it’s anything. It could be. It’s not shady. It’s a grower trying to optimize for that.

00:38:38.910 –> 00:38:49.170
Jeff Louella: I do feel like there are some bad SEOs out there and they probably are doing bad things. But overall, we’re all trying to make our clients site more for the customers.

00:38:49.590 –> 00:38:55.770
Jeff Louella: And that’s why Google showing them over other people and that’s kind of what I feel that’s going on but I get her pain.

00:38:56.340 –> 00:39:08.790
Jeff Louella: Why, she’s, she’s like, if you don’t know that. And you’re just a blogger and you wonder why your blogs loss efforts traffic or isn’t getting the traffic. It means like, of course, you’re just gonna blame the people who specialize in that so

00:39:09.180 –> 00:39:13.860
Casie Gillette: I mean, at the same time, though, if you’re just realizing, like you’re so behind

00:39:13.920 –> 00:39:16.320
Casie Gillette: That’s why you’re not showing up anymore. Right. I

00:39:16.320 –> 00:39:16.740
Jeff Louella: Mean

00:39:17.130 –> 00:39:22.500
Casie Gillette: This started changing how many years ago, I personally don’t have any patience for that so

00:39:23.760 –> 00:39:30.930
Casie Gillette: I just don’t like one. I try to stay out of the SEO dramas, just like again I just other things that I’d like to do

00:39:32.190 –> 00:39:35.400
Casie Gillette: And usually it’s just people I think sometimes people like to argue

00:39:36.660 –> 00:39:38.100
Casie Gillette: I do think in one of the things I do

00:39:38.100 –> 00:39:51.660
Casie Gillette: Love about the SEO space and the people in it is that people are very protective of it right and it goes back to what we were just talking about were five years ago, people maybe didn’t know as much about SEO as they did. So I do think people are very

00:39:52.170 –> 00:40:05.970
Casie Gillette: protective of the Community as a whole, protective of what we do because we’ve always had to be a little bit defensive about it because let’s be real, like when I started the ship were doing was not like well as shady. Right. You’re just buying links and

00:40:06.480 –> 00:40:12.330
Casie Gillette: And it worked. And it was awesome. And you know there are people who are still figuring out how to game the system and at the

00:40:12.360 –> 00:40:27.720
Casie Gillette: End of the day, like, yes, like we’re not personally. It’s not like I’m doing over here doing anything shady, but I am working really hard to innocence game that algorithm. Right. I want my client site there and so

00:40:28.380 –> 00:40:37.080
Casie Gillette: What does that mean, well, it means you have to have a brand presence and it means you need to have content and, you know, yeah, these personal blogs don’t necessarily have that. So maybe they shouldn’t show up.

00:40:38.190 –> 00:40:39.750
Casie Gillette: And what are you trying to show up for so

00:40:39.990 –> 00:40:49.800
Jeff Louella: I don’t know i just i and i can show them like I didn’t want to get into because I’m anti drama myself, but I can show her where there’s personal blogs meeting some of my clients that

00:40:49.830 –> 00:40:50.790
Are driving. Yes.

00:40:52.080 –> 00:41:04.740
Casie Gillette: And it goes to the it goes to the sense of diversification exactly what we were just talking about, you know, for people who maybe you don’t have a big brands like you need to be looking at, you know, social or whatever it is, or medium or these

00:41:04.800 –> 00:41:06.480
Casie Gillette: Other platforms where you can gain

00:41:06.480 –> 00:41:12.600
Casie Gillette: Visibility because, I mean, even for my clients. I’m like, look how much time you have left in Google here, right.

00:41:13.920 –> 00:41:19.380
Casie Gillette: Time is limited for alive. So, you know, whether you’re a blogger not have enough people to sell things to complain, but

00:41:19.650 –> 00:41:20.880
Jeff Louella: What I find interesting.

00:41:20.880 –> 00:41:28.710
Jacob Stoops: About this is like, just like you guys said there are certain queries like across some of my clients were like

00:41:29.400 –> 00:41:35.940
Jacob Stoops: Half of the results are product pages and half of the results are articles.

00:41:36.570 –> 00:41:50.400
Jacob Stoops: blog articles resource articles, things like that. And as an SEO. It’s like it’s really interesting to try to figure out what Google thinks the real intent is. Is it informational is it transactional

00:41:51.000 –> 00:42:03.420
Jacob Stoops: But I would say to like the first comment about how, like, okay, Google never almost never surfaces blogs and personal websites what and my Google Pixel is going up as I’m saying saying this, so I’m

00:42:05.460 –> 00:42:06.630
Jacob Stoops: Always listening Google

00:42:08.340 –> 00:42:27.540
Jacob Stoops: It’s let’s just actually in inaccurate and I’m for, you know, I hate to to rail on this particular person. I don’t know what search that they were doing, but like honestly the last place I worked like we grew our traffic in about a year by like 100% and almost all of it was like

00:42:28.020 –> 00:42:32.850
Jacob Stoops: A blog. Yeah. And that brought in a lot of business. So like, there’s that.

00:42:34.050 –> 00:42:48.210
Jacob Stoops: The second part of this is the, the kind of more kerfuffle were like, Okay, well, just because there are people online that that optimize things to show up. We’re, we’re all assholes. Well,

00:42:49.530 –> 00:42:58.050
Jacob Stoops: Now you something like I feel like there are some because there are two sides of the fence one on one side of the fence. You’ve got people

00:42:59.160 –> 00:43:18.510
Jacob Stoops: In I think rightfully so, defending the industry and the people in it as not all assholes. Okay. And that and that’s true. Like, we’re not all assholes. But there are some assholes. It’s just like other place on Earth. There are things in there. There are not assholes in any profession ever

00:43:19.230 –> 00:43:24.810
Casie Gillette: So, you know, there’s people that are in this industry that I like very much but they’re still assholes.

00:43:25.110 –> 00:43:26.280
Casie Gillette: Right, yeah.

00:43:26.490 –> 00:43:28.110
Jacob Stoops: There’s, there’s even that. But then there are

00:43:28.110 –> 00:43:28.530
Jeff Louella: People on

00:43:28.560 –> 00:43:35.310
Jacob Stoops: The other side of the fence. And this is where I feel like for me in terms of my opinion because I believe that when

00:43:35.580 –> 00:43:41.760
Jacob Stoops: We’re all being generalized as assholes. We have a right to push back. But there are people on the other side of the fence and

00:43:42.300 –> 00:43:53.100
Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand it quite as much and I’m trying really hard that in one case like Tom Raynor who was a was a previous guest on the show and sometimes has

00:43:53.580 –> 00:44:07.500
Jacob Stoops: Some, some opinions on this, this type of stuff basically getting upset at the people for defending the industry and pushing back on on this type of stuff in there were other people saying, hey,

00:44:08.190 –> 00:44:16.530
Jacob Stoops: You’re missing the point. You’re missing the point. And I agree, like, okay, what what’s great about this country is that people are allowed to have

00:44:16.890 –> 00:44:26.250
Jacob Stoops: Opinions and there is freedom of speech and that’s awesome, but there’s not freedom from accountability. Right. You have the right to say whatever the hell you want

00:44:26.610 –> 00:44:35.370
Jacob Stoops: And so to other people. And you mentioned earlier that Twitter is great for our Twitter wouldn’t exist if people didn’t arch. You didn’t argue

00:44:35.400 –> 00:44:37.860
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, absolutely. So anyways,

00:44:40.470 –> 00:44:41.010
Jeff Louella: Okay.

00:44:42.060 –> 00:44:44.130
Jacob Stoops: Anyway, so let’s so let’s move on. Let’s

00:44:44.310 –> 00:44:45.480
Casie Gillette: We can hang with us all day.

00:44:46.950 –> 00:44:59.910
Jacob Stoops: Let’s quickly. Let’s get into kind of the team building want to be respectful of time. So let’s jump into the team building component and deep dive on that really quickly. So, Casie. How do you build a good SEO team.

00:45:00.300 –> 00:45:03.540
Casie Gillette: Yeah, so this was something that I was asking.

00:45:04.380 –> 00:45:18.270
Casie Gillette: You know, five years ago, six years ago, like I said, when I came back to KoMarketing. Um, there were probably about eight people eight or nine people that were here at the time and you know we were growing and I realized that once you hit that 10 to 12 mark.

00:45:19.470 –> 00:45:29.940
Casie Gillette: You need things like processes which like I hate my life just like God, like, all right, we need to do something like how do we actually make this scalable.

00:45:30.720 –> 00:45:38.550
Casie Gillette: And so I started talking to just different people in the industry about how they have grown their teams, you know, I was talking to will Scott

00:45:39.420 –> 00:45:47.430
Casie Gillette: Talking to Mike Arneson about like what they do for training and, you know, just thinking what these people were telling me I was like okay like

00:45:47.880 –> 00:45:59.010
Casie Gillette: What we actually have to do is, is give people the tools that that are going to make them successful but also you have to give them the process to lead them there. And I think that’s something that I struggled with a little bit

00:45:59.940 –> 00:46:18.000
Casie Gillette: Because I just don’t love having to tell people to do something a certain way because especially with search. There’s so many nuances, you know, and I see people who are like, Okay, well, you told me that I have to have 60 characters. And so I have 16 and I’m like, Oh, no.

00:46:20.070 –> 00:46:20.850
Casie Gillette: I just had

00:46:20.940 –> 00:46:27.150
Jacob Stoops: Somebody today asked me how important the little green bubble is in the Yoast SEO plugin.

00:46:27.690 –> 00:46:37.170
Casie Gillette: Yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s fine. So like you have to consider all that but I mean one of the things that that we realized is

00:46:37.980 –> 00:46:40.620
Casie Gillette: One. You just have to we start people slow

00:46:41.280 –> 00:46:48.720
Casie Gillette: But we also give them that you know we give them templates for things and we give them the tools they need and we give them the information they needed and

00:46:49.020 –> 00:47:03.720
Casie Gillette: You know, now we have managers who are helping and there’s people above them who are we’re guiding them through the process, especially people who they don’t have any experience with SEO. Right. They don’t know what it is. So I would also say the one thing that we have certainly changed.

00:47:04.890 –> 00:47:12.810
Casie Gillette: Is focusing on the user. And that’s one thing that I tell people the team now especially new people.

00:47:13.290 –> 00:47:21.900
Casie Gillette: When it comes to things like keywords is I always tell them like think about the user first. And that’s something that even that I feel like has changed.

00:47:22.590 –> 00:47:34.380
Casie Gillette: But you have to really think through all of the nuances that come with search and and that’s tricky, but I think when you’re building your team, you know, you learn it as you go. I’m still learning new things every day.

00:47:35.610 –> 00:47:37.290
Jeff Louella: Yeah. It’s funny, I always tell

00:47:38.400 –> 00:47:40.410
Jeff Louella: There’s different everyone has different ways of doing things.

00:47:40.410 –> 00:47:41.010
Casie Gillette: Right.

00:47:41.160 –> 00:47:46.950
Jeff Louella: When it comes to the title tags. Like, I’m kind of the anti like pipe between like keyword pipe keyword pipe.

00:47:47.400 –> 00:47:58.710
Jeff Louella: And just I’d rather it read something better and. And at the end, it’s not even like I don’t like pipe client I like you know by client or something, some so read, you know, it’s like

00:47:59.130 –> 00:48:02.040
Jeff Louella: A new Nike sneakers. But, you know, from whoever and it’s

00:48:02.520 –> 00:48:12.660
Jeff Louella: And it just little things like that were getting people in brand new and SEO and they read a lot of articles you just end up seeing it, like, way more robotic than it needs to be. And

00:48:13.140 –> 00:48:13.920
And yeah.

00:48:15.180 –> 00:48:21.660
Jeff Louella: Jake’s working on a lot of training stuff where and our work and it’s kind of, it’s tough to get the full gamut of everything you do.

00:48:22.350 –> 00:48:29.700
Jeff Louella: In there, so we’re trying to build a slow kind of library of videos and that when someone new comes in, they can go through them.

00:48:30.210 –> 00:48:30.990
Casie Gillette: It’s a great idea.

00:48:31.260 –> 00:48:33.330
Jeff Louella: I think just the relationships between

00:48:34.380 –> 00:48:39.120
Jeff Louella: People senior people and junior people is where I think a lot of team building needs to come from. So

00:48:39.210 –> 00:48:41.130
Casie Gillette: Yeah, and I mean even thinking about

00:48:42.150 –> 00:48:49.860
Casie Gillette: Like, how are we starting them so like we don’t just immediately drop someone into like doing keyword research. For example,

00:48:50.340 –> 00:48:59.070
Casie Gillette: But what we might have them do is optimize a page which forces them to figure out like how do I find the right keywords and how do I make sure that

00:48:59.280 –> 00:49:05.850
Casie Gillette: I’m you know I’m whatever I’m changing still relates to the user. But it also forces them to go look at search result so

00:49:06.060 –> 00:49:15.690
Casie Gillette: You know, kind of easing them into all of the elements before saying like, all right, like I’m going to have you go do this, this full scope of keyword research or whatever it might be.

00:49:16.650 –> 00:49:20.730
Jacob Stoops: How do you when you’re bringing people into the team, right, there’s

00:49:21.300 –> 00:49:32.790
Jacob Stoops: Just like in sports, right, there’s, there’s the X’s and O’s. Right. But then there’s also an element that’s a little bit more on definable called chemistry right and fit.

00:49:33.240 –> 00:49:39.720
Jacob Stoops: Within the team structure. So when you’re bringing people in and it doesn’t just have to be intro people, it can be mid level and senior people

00:49:40.890 –> 00:49:50.820
Jacob Stoops: What are the characteristics of a person that you look for in terms of that person’s fit as you’re constructing your team. Yeah.

00:49:50.850 –> 00:49:54.060
Casie Gillette: We said, I mean as an organization, we sat down about two years ago.

00:49:54.330 –> 00:50:04.710
Casie Gillette: And it tried to answer that question because we were we, you know, we really wanted to take hiring, we really take it seriously because again we’re a small team. So the people that you’re hiring. You’re putting a lot of investment into that person.

00:50:05.040 –> 00:50:18.600
Casie Gillette: And what we figured out is the people that were looking for, they have to be self motivated. I think that’s the biggest thing is like, we don’t have time. I don’t have time to micromanage people and also who likes that. Like nobody

00:50:19.260 –> 00:50:32.340
Casie Gillette: Can nobody likes that. So you have to be an element of being self motivated and in this industry where things change, like we’re talking about, you need to go figure. You have to be curious. Right. You have to go figure out

00:50:32.910 –> 00:50:42.270
Casie Gillette: Well, I looked at the search result yesterday, and now I’m seeing something different, like why or like last week, my client was here and now they’re not why

00:50:42.990 –> 00:50:55.890
Casie Gillette: So I think between being self motivated and curious. Those are such like key elements for us in the desire to learn is a big one, a really big one. So I love when we interview someone

00:50:56.970 –> 00:51:00.870
Casie Gillette: Excuse. Excuse me. I love when we interview someone and they say,

00:51:01.740 –> 00:51:10.230
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well I’ve been doing this but I’m really interested in this. So, you know, I went in took like the Google Analytics test because I wanted to learn about it right or

00:51:10.410 –> 00:51:21.540
Casie Gillette: I went and looked at HubSpot x because I wanted to learn about it. That’s the stuff that really intrigues me and I’m like, all right, this person, this person is going to be a good fit. So

00:51:21.750 –> 00:51:35.790
Jacob Stoops: Are there ever and I want to be. We’re running out of time so I’m squeezing squeezing questions. Are there ever people that check those boxes, but then come in and still are in a culture fit and how do you, I guess. How do you figure that

00:51:36.210 –> 00:51:42.180
Casie Gillette: We, we haven’t we haven’t had that honestly it we’ve been so lucky. I met. Oh.

00:51:43.020 –> 00:51:47.490
Casie Gillette: But we do like when the people come in, like, we’re very we work in an open office.

00:51:47.790 –> 00:51:56.850
Casie Gillette: Right. And I’m very just apparent like the questions that we ask are, you know, the questions I asked her what type of environment. Are you looking for. How do you like to be managed. How do you learn

00:51:57.750 –> 00:52:04.800
Casie Gillette: You know what, what is your, your dream job. What you know those questions, kind of, they can give you a lot of insights into that.

00:52:05.160 –> 00:52:12.810
Casie Gillette: But we also will have, like, it’s not just the leadership team who’s interviewing these people. We have their peers come in and talk to them.

00:52:13.290 –> 00:52:21.810
Casie Gillette: We have a, you know, middle managers come in and talk to them. So, you know, at the end, we’re all deciding does this person seem like a fit. And I think that helps

00:52:23.100 –> 00:52:25.560
Casie Gillette: Okay, we’ve had like one, maybe, maybe there’s like one

00:52:28.950 –> 00:52:30.480
Casie Gillette: So we’ve been lucky I guess.

00:52:31.440 –> 00:52:37.500
Jeff Louella: Awesome. So if you know you ain’t got a couple drinks and you’re talking to the bartender and the bartender says

00:52:37.800 –> 00:52:46.770
Jeff Louella: Hey, I want to follow the same steps that you did. I want to get into SEO. What kind of advice would you give them to go like come from, like, you know, bartender waitress or, you know,

00:52:46.770 –> 00:52:48.660
Jeff Louella: Any type of job into the SEO world.

00:52:49.140 –> 00:52:52.200
Casie Gillette: I tell people all the time. Start build a website.

00:52:53.220 –> 00:52:55.230
Casie Gillette: Even though they’re not showing up in search results.

00:52:55.800 –> 00:53:00.180
Casie Gillette: You know, start playing around with WordPress. I think WordPress is the easiest place to start.

00:53:00.990 –> 00:53:09.450
Casie Gillette: But just building your own site. I think that’s your best test environment you’re never going to learn more. That’s how, like, I didn’t know HTML. When I was coming out of school.

00:53:09.990 –> 00:53:17.550
Casie Gillette: I just started playing around with it. I started building my own websites. I’ve read like I got like HTML for dummies. I own I bought SEO for dummies.

00:53:18.570 –> 00:53:18.900
Casie Gillette: Me.

00:53:20.130 –> 00:53:22.140
Casie Gillette: You learn this stuff by doing it.

00:53:22.200 –> 00:53:23.430
Casie Gillette: And that’s never in that goes

00:53:23.430 –> 00:53:30.030
Casie Gillette: Back to the start of our conversation on being in an agency where you have these different places to play and explore and

00:53:30.360 –> 00:53:38.070
Casie Gillette: I would say just go and I tell the team here. Like if you want to learn. People are like, oh, I want to learn HTML, you can, it’s, it’s not really that hard.

00:53:38.850 –> 00:53:55.950
Casie Gillette: There’s plenty of places to do these things, but go start go start playing around and read. I mean, I read an hour every day. So every I pay attention to what’s what’s whether it’s on Twitter, whether it’s on my feed Lee feeds. I still read every single day to learn what else is new.

00:53:58.080 –> 00:54:02.880
Jacob Stoops: Reading is very, very important and underrated skill in this industry.

00:54:03.990 –> 00:54:12.210
Jacob Stoops: Well. Casie I’m know you’re running out of time and have a hard stop wanted to thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you.

00:54:12.540 –> 00:54:22.500
Casie Gillette: Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun. You can find me on twitter at Casie G. You can find me. I always say this, I’m LinkedIn. I’ve never on LinkedIn. Don’t find me there.

00:54:24.480 –> 00:54:26.580
Casie Gillette: Find me at KoMarketing com

00:54:27.030 –> 00:54:28.410
Jeff Louella: Cool, thank you so much.

00:54:28.410 –> 00:54:34.950
Jacob Stoops: For coming on and I know our audience will will love your episode. It was a great, great discussion.

00:54:35.550 –> 00:54:37.020
Casie Gillette: Well, thanks. It’s good to talk to you guys.

00:54:37.200 –> 00:54:37.680
Jacob Stoops: Thank you.

00:54:37.740 –> 00:54:38.280
To talk to you.

#33: Patrick Stox

Episode Summary

We sit down with Patrick Stox, Product Adviser at AHrefs, former technical SEO at IBM, and co-moderator of The TechSEO subreddit (one of the best SEO subreddits going right now) and organizer of several SEO meetups in Raleigh, NC.

We talk about:

  • How the downturn in the economy caused by the 2008 financial bubble led him to a career as a developer which eventually led him to SEO
  • His time at IBM
  • What he’s currently up to at AHrefs (also pronounced “Hrefs”)
  • The importance of practical experience rather than simply having a degree
  • The announcement that Speakable structured data is no longer restricted to news content
  • And so much more.

#32: Ashley Berman Hale & Jamie Alberico

Episode Summary

We have an amazing episode in store for you today as we have not one, but two guests!

In today’s episode, we chat with Ashley Berman Hale, Director of Technical SEO consulting and professional services at Deep Crawl, as well as Jamie Alberico, Technical SEO consultant at Not a Robot.

We had such a free-flowing conversation that we ditched the traditional format (as you will soon find out) and we covered a ton of topics including:

  • Ashley and Jamie’s backgrounds and career progressions into SEO
  • Their amazing friendship
  • Why they love technical SEO
  • Dealing with impostor syndrome and self doubt
  • Public speaking and writing
  • The conference circuit

And so much more.

Episode Transcript

00:00:01.380 –> 00:00:21.510
Jacob Stoops: Alright. Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops we are back for another episode of the page to podcast and today we have a very, very special episode where we have not one, but two guests and I will let you know who those guests are in a moment. But first, I’ve got to say hi to Jeff.

00:00:21.870 –> 00:00:22.560
Jeff Louella: Hello everybody.

00:00:22.710 –> 00:00:24.630
Jacob Stoops: And everything. Make sure we don’t skip Jeff.

00:00:26.190 –> 00:00:31.860
Jacob Stoops: And then guests. Number one is going to be Miss Jamie Alberico. Jamie, how’s it going

00:00:33.000 –> 00:00:38.370
Jamie Alberico: I’m so sad to be that guy. First thing in the podcast, it’s out there we go.

00:00:38.700 –> 00:00:39.000
How are

00:00:40.740 –> 00:00:41.160
Jacob Stoops: You. I am

00:00:43.110 –> 00:00:46.920
Jacob Stoops: I gave you the Midwest pronunciation with the Bad accent. So I am

00:00:48.810 –> 00:00:49.620
Jamie Alberico: Okay.

00:00:49.740 –> 00:00:50.250

00:00:51.390 –> 00:00:52.740
Jamie Alberico: It means else King

00:00:53.220 –> 00:00:54.330
Jacob Stoops: What, no.

00:00:54.390 –> 00:00:54.660

00:00:55.980 –> 00:01:01.980
Jamie Alberico: Alberico means elf King, Jamie means usurper.

00:01:02.430 –> 00:01:02.760

00:01:04.950 –> 00:01:11.400
Jacob Stoops: Well, I would say, I was gonna say Game of Thrones. Because of you, soccer, but elf is more Lord of the Rings, so

00:01:11.670 –> 00:01:13.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Or D, amp D do it on

00:01:13.440 –> 00:01:25.410
Jacob Stoops: there or there you go that’s that’s probably a better a better reference, but I actually don’t play d&d so the other person speaking, surprise surprise is Miss Ashley Berman Hale. Hi. How’s it going, Ashley.

00:01:25.650 –> 00:01:26.730
Jamie Alberico: Good. I couldn’t keep

00:01:26.730 –> 00:01:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: My mouth shut, until you

00:01:28.320 –> 00:01:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Enjoy your now.

00:01:29.610 –> 00:01:30.960
Jacob Stoops: Did I pronounce your name right.

00:01:31.350 –> 00:01:31.950
Ashley Berman Hale: No.

00:01:32.040 –> 00:01:33.090
Yes, la

00:01:36.030 –> 00:01:36.450
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

00:01:37.080 –> 00:01:38.430
Ashley Berman Hale: Thank you very much.

00:01:38.730 –> 00:01:45.030
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s nothing like face palming the the intros and messing up somebody’s name immediately. So

00:01:46.020 –> 00:01:47.220
Jacob Stoops: Can wish I was the

00:01:47.520 –> 00:01:50.670
Jacob Stoops: Was the first time I’ve done that. But it’s but it’s not you think I’d learned

00:01:51.960 –> 00:02:01.470
Jacob Stoops: Cool. So thank you everybody for being here. I know in Jamie’s case she’s kind of out on the West Coast. So it’s a very early morning so

00:02:02.040 –> 00:02:10.560
Jacob Stoops: Extra Special that she has decided to join us. I did want to make a few remarks and tell a quick story before we kind of dive in.

00:02:11.340 –> 00:02:24.510
Jacob Stoops: The one, one thing is I wanted to pay a bit of tribute my wife’s Grandpa. We just came from his funeral. This weekend and today actually would be his 100th birthday.

00:02:25.290 –> 00:02:40.800
Jacob Stoops: So he decided to to not wait we had planned a surprise birthday party for him on this this past Saturday, and we were, we had had hired a an old

00:02:42.090 –> 00:02:48.300
Jacob Stoops: Style crooner we had had because he’s a Italian we had had a nice Catholic

00:02:49.890 –> 00:03:00.480
Jacob Stoops: BLEEP something sent from the actual Pope in Rome, we had had the governor of Kentucky, the President of the Cincinnati Reds all kinds of people.

00:03:01.680 –> 00:03:06.540
Jacob Stoops: provided some really special things for him to honor his 100th birthday.

00:03:07.020 –> 00:03:18.120
Jacob Stoops: Unfortunately, about three weeks ago he passed away and he pulled one over on us. So instead of going to a surprise 100th birthday party. We went to his funeral this weekend.

00:03:18.390 –> 00:03:37.500
Jacob Stoops: But today, would have been his actual 100th birthday. So what I can only hope is that he, his wife preceded him by about five years is that she called him up to spend his hundredth birthday with her. So Hank Picciano if you can somehow, hear me, we love you and we miss you already

00:03:39.210 –> 00:03:41.100
Jacob Stoops: So now, now that I’m

00:03:42.540 –> 00:03:48.750
Jacob Stoops: A little sad. Sorry, I’m trying goes, it’s still a little Ross of trying to do. I’m trying to hold it back here, but

00:03:49.830 –> 00:03:57.990
Jacob Stoops: Wanted to tell the story of how we were able to book both Jamie and Ashley at the same time and

00:03:58.770 –> 00:04:08.100
Jacob Stoops: I hope that it didn’t come across super creepy. But basically, when we were thinking about Season two. And we were trying to figure out, okay,

00:04:08.400 –> 00:04:23.670
Jacob Stoops: Here’s everybody that we’ve already talked to, and here are the people and it’s a large group of people. You guys are extra, extra special. Obviously, but it’s a large group of people, because there are just so many fantastic SEOs in the in the space and honestly

00:04:24.720 –> 00:04:29.550
Jacob Stoops: We’re going to try to interview every single one of them, because there are so many, but it could take years.

00:04:30.270 –> 00:04:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Which is a good thing. Since we have a podcast but basically we when we had thought about who we want on Ashley and Jamie were kind of close to the top of the list.

00:04:40.170 –> 00:04:51.750
Jacob Stoops: And so we had started, we had started reaching out to people and especially in cases where you don’t directly know each other’s but you are kind of tangentially connected

00:04:52.380 –> 00:04:58.950
Jacob Stoops: As we were in a, in a few cases, you just kind of go through the the different channels. The, the email.

00:04:59.250 –> 00:05:10.770
Jacob Stoops: We use you use whatever’s available to us. So Jeff was connected to Ashley through a text Slack channel. I was connected to to Jamie through Twitter.

00:05:11.220 –> 00:05:21.060
Jacob Stoops: And then we had found somehow emails. I think we pulled them from Jamie, I think I called your email from your website.

00:05:21.780 –> 00:05:33.090
Jacob Stoops: I think it’s not not a robot, which I want to ask about that. And then I somehow we found Ashley’s here. I don’t know. But anyway, so we’re reaching out and we’re in the process. And it’s occurring on the same day and

00:05:34.080 –> 00:05:46.500
Jacob Stoops: We came to found out to find out that not only were we both reaching out to you guys. At the same time, you are literally sitting in the same room while we’re trying to schedule this so

00:05:47.670 –> 00:05:55.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that especially because you didn’t know us directly. It was like these creepy guys trying to schedule us for a pot.

00:05:56.610 –> 00:05:57.030
Jacob Stoops: Yes.

00:05:57.390 –> 00:06:00.330
Jamie Alberico: Actually these guys want to schedule a murder. What are you doing,

00:06:00.420 –> 00:06:00.780

00:06:03.330 –> 00:06:03.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Numbers.

00:06:06.750 –> 00:06:07.140
Jacob Stoops: Vary

00:06:08.580 –> 00:06:09.060
Jacob Stoops: But you guys

00:06:09.210 –> 00:06:09.870

00:06:12.990 –> 00:06:29.610
Jamie Alberico: Ashley had just ordered some some birthday brunch for me. And we were at my kitchen table and drain eggs Benedict and something to listen to a local bit around here. And yeah, we both got the same message like hey, she just got an invitation for pitch to

00:06:30.780 –> 00:06:31.230
Jamie Alberico: The oh

00:06:31.410 –> 00:06:32.370
Jeff Louella: Yes, funny.

00:06:32.910 –> 00:06:40.560
Jacob Stoops: Well luckily it all. It all worked out. You guys are a good sports and we appreciate you all coming on. So,

00:06:42.210 –> 00:06:54.930
Jacob Stoops: As as everybody who listens to this podcast knows the hallmark is origin stories backgrounds and what it’s like to be to be an SEO and since we have two

00:06:55.560 –> 00:07:03.780
Jacob Stoops: Guests on this podcast, we’re going to be doing two interviews and depending on timing will probably skip, skip the news. Maybe we’ll

00:07:04.350 –> 00:07:22.560
Jacob Stoops: We were going to maybe talk about tech SEO boost, but I think we can skip that for now. But we’re going to be doing to background story interviews and then later on a deep dive into just general technical SEO. So who wants to go first. Who would like to step up to the plate.

00:07:23.250 –> 00:07:23.760
Now that

00:07:25.290 –> 00:07:26.760
Jamie Alberico: Oh you have see

00:07:29.880 –> 00:07:35.160
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jamie. Since it’s six in the morning or seven in the morning there and you’re

00:07:35.700 –> 00:07:37.140
Jacob Stoops: Fresh on game.

00:07:37.830 –> 00:07:41.280
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah, I was bitten by a radioactive search engine.

00:07:42.570 –> 00:07:44.460
Jamie Alberico: My Uncle Ben and now I’m here.

00:07:44.790 –> 00:07:45.660
Now you’re here.

00:07:46.920 –> 00:07:50.460
Jacob Stoops: Miss Peter Parker Pedro Parker. Oh.

00:07:54.480 –> 00:08:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: What was I here, for I got frustrated with other jobs and I like to tinker. All right. Um, I mean we can tell the long story if you want actual details. Is that what this podcast is about

00:08:05.550 –> 00:08:08.640
Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly. I was gonna say well podcast is over a

00:08:10.110 –> 00:08:11.940
Jamie Alberico: Couple of little one liners are like

00:08:13.140 –> 00:08:14.160
Jamie Alberico: cash the check.

00:08:14.550 –> 00:08:14.760

00:08:16.950 –> 00:08:20.190
Ashley Berman Hale: I think that was Jamie’s really good job of loving it back to me because

00:08:20.910 –> 00:08:23.430
Ashley Berman Hale: There for me to call not it. So I will get started.

00:08:25.590 –> 00:08:31.710
Ashley Berman Hale: I have a degree in art history which is fantastically useless in the traditional sense.

00:08:33.120 –> 00:08:40.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I love it. Critical thinking is something that is a little bit tough to teach. If you don’t have it. So thank you, college for giving me that

00:08:40.950 –> 00:08:51.600
Ashley Berman Hale: And the first non waitress job I took or non dish dish washing and a bar or non making coffee was a sit down job at a small startup.

00:08:52.050 –> 00:09:02.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Where I had to answer, answer emails for people who are too busy to answer their own emails and pretend to do that. So that was how I got started made friends with the CFO did some audience because I’m picky as hell.

00:09:02.850 –> 00:09:19.980
Ashley Berman Hale: And knew that there was money missing saved him a bunch of money. They got bought out by Overstock and so we got tossed in I got brought down to the exact office there to help out and had someone say, here’s a giant fucking spreadsheet. This is pay per click. Can you figure it out.

00:09:21.390 –> 00:09:26.670
Ashley Berman Hale: And that was tough. And I said, I don’t like this. And I like cool. How about XML sitemap, have you heard of those

00:09:27.750 –> 00:09:35.940
Ashley Berman Hale: So the way that I got started as just trying to figure out how to do that for a big site with lots of inventory. I went and asked questions in a forum, I believe so strongly and

00:09:36.360 –> 00:09:44.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Sharing public information and helping each other. So while I was asking and waiting for an answer. I decided to answer some other questions and got stuck here.

00:09:46.170 –> 00:09:58.800
Ashley Berman Hale: God there’s ultimate nerd forum environments for me to learn in and for me to be moderately accepted by and then I kind of hopped around a bit and found myself very comfortably nestled in the technical SEO spot for a software company.

00:10:00.690 –> 00:10:00.960

00:10:02.640 –> 00:10:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: High five.

00:10:04.710 –> 00:10:14.130
Ashley Berman Hale: High five. That’s, I mean, I’m still a really good. Well, no, I’m not. I’m still a really good dishwasher and a moderately okay waitress. So I’ve got backup plans.

00:10:14.730 –> 00:10:16.590
Jamie Alberico: How many friends today. Gary Owens now.

00:10:17.070 –> 00:10:17.820
Like seven

00:10:19.020 –> 00:10:20.250
Ashley Berman Hale: My, my arms.

00:10:21.690 –> 00:10:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Around children. So, you know,

00:10:25.170 –> 00:10:26.640
Jamie Alberico: fallback plan is ready.

00:10:28.740 –> 00:10:40.350
Jeff Louella: Yeah. During the dark during the.com bust. I went to bartending school because I figured the internet was going to go away. And I was like, you know, one thing people like to do when times are bad is drink so

00:10:41.670 –> 00:10:57.030
Ashley Berman Hale: I believe it. My family owned a bar and like the Dyess state in the tree. So my family were bar owners in Utah, and actually under brewery in Montana and they always did. Okay. Because whenever there is, you know, a lot of money or religious oppression beer helps. Yeah.

00:10:59.100 –> 00:11:03.120
Jamie Alberico: And actually makes really good homemade Kula and it’s almost Christmas Ashley.

00:11:03.240 –> 00:11:04.260
Jamie Alberico: I know well

00:11:04.350 –> 00:11:08.940
Ashley Berman Hale: I will bring you a batch. I’m making a local New York match. But then I’ll be back to Colorado. Nice.

00:11:09.450 –> 00:11:12.240
Jeff Louella: Guy have three gallons of lemon cello going on back here for

00:11:13.110 –> 00:11:15.030
Ashley Berman Hale: Them. He’s not lying it people

00:11:16.770 –> 00:11:21.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Dang. All right, jack you got plans later I’m gonna hang out with you.

00:11:21.990 –> 00:11:23.790
Jeff Louella: All right, let’s do it. I got tons of stuff here.

00:11:24.600 –> 00:11:26.160
Jeff Louella: The whole wall whiskies over here to

00:11:27.510 –> 00:11:30.150
Jamie Alberico: Why are we not doing this from just garage.

00:11:30.420 –> 00:11:31.080
Jeff Louella: Come on.

00:11:31.590 –> 00:11:34.080
Ashley Berman Hale: All right, Jamie I deferred you long enough. Now you have to tell

00:11:34.380 –> 00:11:43.770
Jamie Alberico: Magical story. I did the coffee kicking. I was supposed to be a player, right, which is a weird thing to say. And I guess I can certainly do that.

00:11:44.190 –> 00:11:59.520
Jamie Alberico: But that’s where my degree is in my passion was like, I’m gonna write plays and comic books, and then the recession in 2008 head and call times were longer than normal. And I’m trying to contact my student loan folk and find some way to pay them and he

00:12:00.810 –> 00:12:03.840
Jamie Alberico: You know, I was waiting tables at a sushi bar and

00:12:05.010 –> 00:12:12.690
Jamie Alberico: Wasn’t really glamorous bit and got into basically any job that would get me away from cutting my fingers and carrying

00:12:14.010 –> 00:12:15.750
Jamie Alberico: His family without being pushy, the end of the day.

00:12:20.790 –> 00:12:23.760
Jamie Alberico: It’s a really where my stories prematurely.

00:12:26.640 –> 00:12:29.010
Jamie Alberico: Like I did other things at some point somewhere.

00:12:31.320 –> 00:12:44.160
Jamie Alberico: I was a blogger Outreach Manager. That was my first gig, which is pre Penguin on if you are trying to connect to me on LinkedIn. Right now, I would offer the pro tip of remove

00:12:45.510 –> 00:12:48.720
Jamie Alberico: link building from your title before you send that letter.

00:12:48.720 –> 00:12:54.570
Jamie Alberico: Susan, thank you. I’m sure you’re a lovely human I’ve just been hurt before by choosing to copy pasta.

00:12:56.730 –> 00:13:04.320
Jamie Alberico: To the job and house for e commerce company. We like to me doesn’t products and I look back and go, Oh, it’s so cute little that

00:13:05.550 –> 00:13:12.750
Jamie Alberico: actually ended up working for Ashley. So here’s where I story interconnected. Yeah.

00:13:14.010 –> 00:13:26.580
Jamie Alberico: I interviewed a local agency and then local Jeannine the first interview, do you think is great. Like, we’re gonna put you on a video interview with our had tech SEO. We were like team Tomahawk

00:13:27.510 –> 00:13:27.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, that’s

00:13:28.380 –> 00:13:29.970
Ashley Berman Hale: Bad racial appropriation.

00:13:31.500 –> 00:13:33.570
Jamie Alberico: Sorry, I’m stating historical facts.

00:13:33.600 –> 00:13:35.370
Jamie Alberico: admitting to whitewash history right now.

00:13:36.720 –> 00:13:38.580
Jamie Alberico: And we’ve learned better and we’re doing better.

00:13:38.610 –> 00:13:41.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just have a lot of apologies in life.

00:13:44.130 –> 00:13:57.390
Jamie Alberico: Hashtag relatable well interview with Ashley, I’m there was this this magical creature who knew all this world of technical SEO is just like a PG podcast. What kind of language. Can I bring to the table right now and reenact

00:13:57.780 –> 00:13:58.950
Jacob Stoops: Wherever you’re comfortable with.

00:14:00.870 –> 00:14:01.320
Jacob Stoops: George

00:14:02.760 –> 00:14:03.000
Jeff Louella: You’re

00:14:03.870 –> 00:14:05.760
Jamie Alberico: In trouble if I tell if I

00:14:06.120 –> 00:14:11.640
Jamie Alberico: Tell the internet that it was love at first Cocker so I’m interviewing with Ashley and we’re talking

00:14:12.360 –> 00:14:26.160
Jamie Alberico: I don’t remember what the deal was I think about previous job and what it was like waiting tables and somehow the story of an individual thing rather cantankerous king came up and actually

00:14:29.100 –> 00:14:33.060
Jamie Alberico: Miss, miss a big like always being a cock sucker. When you’re that guy.

00:14:34.830 –> 00:14:41.430
Jamie Alberico: On a moment we bonded and the person that hired me immediately most tech out to john Schilling, at that time, because they took us. He goes, where

00:14:41.820 –> 00:14:48.780
Jamie Alberico: And the bathroom children have both Marketing SEO traditional style and dev didn’t really have a new should have our own just yet.

00:14:49.410 –> 00:15:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I picked them several months they, you know, kick it back to me and be like, Yeah, I want you to join the team and that time I like waiting for Android little cards like, Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to interview I really want to work with Ashley.

00:15:04.050 –> 00:15:16.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And I will do anything once somebody flatters me and we have great chemistry. So it was, it was awesome, because it was really important to me to always do some peer collaboration with technical SEO, in particular, just like you do peer reviews. When you’re coding

00:15:17.850 –> 00:15:22.050
Ashley Berman Hale: And it’s really important to me to reach back and bring more women, along with me so

00:15:23.730 –> 00:15:34.410
Ashley Berman Hale: I wasn’t far ahead and I’m certainly am a decent click behind Jamie now because she’s, she’s had a really fast trajectory. But the fact that I can bring more women on to a technical team was really fucking awesome.

00:15:36.180 –> 00:15:40.080
Jamie Alberico: It was 100 recent article women on that game. Yeah, yeah. There were two of us.

00:15:41.370 –> 00:15:41.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Math.

00:15:41.670 –> 00:15:42.030
Jeff Louella: Jackie.

00:15:42.780 –> 00:15:43.290
You. Yeah.

00:15:45.840 –> 00:15:47.040
Jeff Louella: It’s awesome. So

00:15:47.640 –> 00:15:58.080
Jacob Stoops: So I think the first thing I would ask is what is it about technical SEO that excites both of you will like why because there’s there’s all kinds of different types of SEO like

00:15:59.070 –> 00:16:06.090
Jacob Stoops: Depending on like different bat. It’s like you almost get to pick and choose what kind of SEO you like to do, and I feel like

00:16:07.650 –> 00:16:22.620
Jacob Stoops: You kind of have to be able to dabble in a little bit of everything. But I feel like over the course of time people develop their specialty based on you know what they what they enjoy most. So what is it about technical SEO specifically that you guys enjoy

00:16:23.580 –> 00:16:32.460
Ashley Berman Hale: I like thinking about the evolution of it. I always think of the adage that, you know, back in the day, everyone was their town doctor and you’re going to college. This was also your dentist.

00:16:33.060 –> 00:16:41.370
Ashley Berman Hale: Let that sink in for a second and then, you know, we started getting better and getting specialist. So I think we’re in a really cool time of SEO where there are these deep specialists.

00:16:42.600 –> 00:16:51.360
Ashley Berman Hale: I got into technical SEO because I was just so curious. Like, that seems so smart and clever and an interesting

00:16:53.310 –> 00:17:01.170
Ashley Berman Hale: That I wanted to learn it and I wanted to learn from smart people. Also, I am just a shitty marketer, like the anti marketer. I can’t write

00:17:01.770 –> 00:17:17.460
Ashley Berman Hale: Like if someone asked me write a blog, I would rather quit my job I’ve come close before a video the nine. The people who hired us who were very gentle and patient, they definitely gave up after making me white write one blog, and I, I just, I can’t promote and so for me.

00:17:17.490 –> 00:17:21.510
Jamie Alberico: For like 4000 words, it’s still one of the best resources on

00:17:23.580 –> 00:17:24.780
Jamie Alberico: Security at that time.

00:17:24.900 –> 00:17:25.830
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, well, I

00:17:26.160 –> 00:17:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Wrote Gordon Duff and beautiful.

00:17:31.050 –> 00:17:33.390
Jamie Alberico: White Paper, essentially. So let me give you credit

00:17:33.810 –> 00:17:34.080

00:17:36.240 –> 00:17:43.500
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, not liking it. It’s really hard, whereas the technical stuff. I am a voice and a snoop. And that’s why I like the Internet.

00:17:43.860 –> 00:17:54.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I snoop on people in my free time and I snoop on your site during work time and that’s why I love it. I like to go find problems and tinker and figure out what somebody busted and how we can make it better.

00:17:55.860 –> 00:17:56.400
About you, James.

00:17:58.410 –> 00:18:10.860
Jamie Alberico: Oh, I fell in love with technical SEO I missed it. I was hired for cascade and as a marketing SEO went to work on the blog and all that, but in my domain was, you know, monitoring our

00:18:11.430 –> 00:18:19.800
Jamie Alberico: keywords and we were, I think, the second or third largest e commerce site for restaurant equipment on suddenly all of my rankings just

00:18:20.340 –> 00:18:29.100
Jamie Alberico: fell out they’ll drop the bomb dropped them and maybe we can figure out what’s going on. And that led down and it’s really good 11 day binge.

00:18:29.520 –> 00:18:43.740
Jamie Alberico: Like some people go to Vegas when they go on a binge. I went like an 11 day binge of like trying to figure out what happened to this website. And at the end of it. It was a home of homebrew CMS, the result we had to break the site. Fine.

00:18:44.880 –> 00:18:59.340
Jamie Alberico: And kind of start from scratch. I had to go here and learn about how to map all of the specific content together, how to figure out when things were no longer useful. That’s my son yelling at us right now, by the way. Hi tank boy. Say hello to the internet.

00:19:02.460 –> 00:19:11.310
Jacob Stoops: By the way, I super impressed that you managed to keep talking without breaking stride as you let your cat in and open your curtains. That was pretty. That was pretty awesome.

00:19:12.300 –> 00:19:16.290
Jamie Alberico: Sorry internet tank takes precedence on all matters. Yeah.

00:19:18.390 –> 00:19:22.830
Jamie Alberico: That’s, yeah. I fell in love with mechanical co authoring getting that chance to

00:19:24.060 –> 00:19:35.100
Jamie Alberico: Say what we say a dying site. We have to go through to make a series of very dramatic changes and that rebuilding at home growing CML and increasingly great band of it.

00:19:37.950 –> 00:19:40.020
Jeff Louella: I think it comes down to a lot of

00:19:41.040 –> 00:19:55.350
Jeff Louella: A lot of people get here, and that’s one reason I love like the origin story he’s because we all get here in different ways and whether you’re coming from a technical background or not it. We all one thing we have in common is that curiosity to dive deep

00:19:55.680 –> 00:20:00.930
Jeff Louella: And 11 days to their I spent. It’s funny, I used to do web development and

00:20:02.070 –> 00:20:19.020
Jeff Louella: Most of my friends were on AT LIKE AFTER MIDNIGHT AND ONCE A while I’m not on online as much that late night. But when I am. It’s still the same people, same developer guys like cuz it’s like some reason my brain starts tweaking and start doing well at like 11 o’clock. Yeah, so

00:20:19.080 –> 00:20:22.740
Jamie Alberico: That weird golden hour of Cannibal logical brain that

00:20:22.770 –> 00:20:25.320
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, we do later in the evening.

00:20:26.760 –> 00:20:38.130
Jeff Louella: So it’s fun. And I’ve spent many, many, many hours just like going down a rabbit hole and no one ever know like at the end of the day, my wife will be like, what are we doing go four in the morning, not just like

00:20:38.670 –> 00:20:45.510
Jeff Louella: I don’t know. I was trying to get some code work and sometimes it’s just you missed a period somewhere and now it’s two in the morning and

00:20:45.780 –> 00:20:46.020

00:20:47.070 –> 00:20:47.760
Jamie Alberico: fancy clothes.

00:20:51.090 –> 00:21:01.710
Jeff Louella: So, and then having that like coming into the SEO side of things, really, kind of, it’s interesting. It’s one thing I have trouble with with new guys coming into SEO. It’s like

00:21:02.610 –> 00:21:07.290
Jeff Louella: I want to learn technical SEO and I’m like, are you willing to stay up for 10 days and try

00:21:07.890 –> 00:21:21.180
Jeff Louella: Out some piece of something that just drives you crazy. You can’t go to sleep until you figure it out and and you can’t teach that, of course, and it’s one of those where we trying to figure out what like how do I get that into a lot of my team. How do I get into them and

00:21:21.930 –> 00:21:23.010
Jamie Alberico: Either. How do I do that.

00:21:23.100 –> 00:21:29.790
Jamie Alberico: Cheryl ambition interview process. You just give them two pieces of drinking a paperclip go kidnap and see

00:21:30.810 –> 00:21:33.720
Jamie Alberico: If they can do is that you’re new to this.

00:21:34.020 –> 00:21:34.950
Jeff Louella: Never thought about that one.

00:21:35.250 –> 00:21:36.210
Jacob Stoops: MacGyver style.

00:21:36.690 –> 00:21:45.900
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, I mean I was figuring out how to make an unusual shape spec for they had the actual app items when

00:21:46.350 –> 00:21:56.730
Jamie Alberico: I was a game changer for me a call. I can go ahead and make all these API calls. And I can begin to reuse this work and, you know, each time I do I swap out, pick up, pick and choose configuration and

00:21:57.210 –> 00:22:12.270
Jamie Alberico: Let me scale up so they get good pieces learning to be a Technic technical SEO is after you’ve gone through and burn yourself out on an insane rabbit hole that you know showed you some great things as to how do I read that information.

00:22:13.980 –> 00:22:19.020
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re failing nine and 10 times tinkering around then SEO technical SEO for you.

00:22:20.040 –> 00:22:26.220
Jamie Alberico: So you want to fail, like a flying SPACE MONKEY and plume of fireworks and we have a career for you.

00:22:27.690 –> 00:22:41.250
Jacob Stoops: One thing I am finding interesting is I think three out of four of us have a background in the in the arts. So I come from a graphic design background. We’ve got an art history background.

00:22:41.760 –> 00:23:00.390
Jacob Stoops: And then kind of a playwriting background. And it’s like, That’s not very technical stuff I’m I mean I’m sure there is some technicality to it, but it’s not like code in as my in laws say Jake works on computers and really don’t, um,

00:23:02.190 –> 00:23:05.190
Jamie Alberico: I mean, check out gun applies the code and the playwriting

00:23:05.220 –> 00:23:05.670
Jacob Stoops: Right and

00:23:06.060 –> 00:23:07.890
Jamie Alberico: They got enough one a bit of fire and three

00:23:08.940 –> 00:23:22.410
Jacob Stoops: I just wonder where the not even necessarily the the technical SEO. The, the SEO part of it. But with that kind of a background amongst all of us, where do we feel like

00:23:22.980 –> 00:23:26.340
Jacob Stoops: The, the need and the passion because I’m very passionate about.

00:23:27.150 –> 00:23:36.060
Jacob Stoops: Technical SEO as well, although I don’t like to be bucket it as a technical SEO. I like to be bucket it as just more of a general like jack of all trades, but

00:23:36.630 –> 00:23:49.800
Jacob Stoops: There is a certain passion for getting in and getting my hands dirty and, you know, with a website and coming from a graphic design background. I just wonder like sometimes. Where did that come from.

00:23:49.890 –> 00:23:50.340
Ashley Berman Hale: I just

00:23:50.730 –> 00:24:06.780
Jacob Stoops: I can’t even put my put my finger on it because graphic design is more art, whereas I feel like technical and coding and building websites is a little bit more science. So I don’t know, maybe I feel like. And I guess I needed some balance in in the second half of my life.

00:24:07.380 –> 00:24:13.710
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have I have pretty strong feelings about that after being chastised for mocking my degree.

00:24:15.210 –> 00:24:19.530
Ashley Berman Hale: Listen, my dad looked at me and rolled his eyes and he said, good luck paying for college on your own.

00:24:20.160 –> 00:24:25.050
Ashley Berman Hale: But art history is one of those degrees, where people are like, what the hell are you going to do with that so

00:24:25.800 –> 00:24:29.430
Ashley Berman Hale: I will tell you that the greatest thing I learned from my degrees to spend time looking

00:24:30.150 –> 00:24:39.030
Ashley Berman Hale: And critical thinking. Because what you can do is you can uncover individual parts of a painting or learn about someone’s life or what was going on in the culture was going on in the economy.

00:24:39.570 –> 00:24:42.270
Ashley Berman Hale: With diseases were being spread based on the iconography.

00:24:42.750 –> 00:24:51.210
Ashley Berman Hale: And when you look at someone site, you’re essentially stripping back layers of. Where are they getting their imagery. What’s the content. What’s the history of the site and how many hands gone through

00:24:51.870 –> 00:25:01.860
Ashley Berman Hale: And then you pull back further to see what the bones are and where the skeletons are hidden the bad ones, the broken bones. I don’t know where I’m going with this. Yeah, but

00:25:01.890 –> 00:25:06.810
Jamie Alberico: Someone redesigned it and it was like that fresco about the will and his woman repainted.

00:25:07.140 –> 00:25:07.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, the none.

00:25:07.980 –> 00:25:10.530
Ashley Berman Hale: None that repainting yes we have done many

00:25:11.520 –> 00:25:12.540
Sites in our life.

00:25:13.860 –> 00:25:23.490
Ashley Berman Hale: But it does feel like there’s a really good intersection of I think Fine Arts and Humanities help teach people to be open about humans and to look critically

00:25:24.090 –> 00:25:37.380
Ashley Berman Hale: At what they create. And so while I have a laughable degree to some people, and I’ll be the first to make a joke. I really don’t think I could do what I do today without having spent the time and learning how to unravel the story from that degree.

00:25:39.030 –> 00:25:46.410
Jacob Stoops: I think that’s a great point night I honestly I never thought about it that way. And I remember being in college and thinking a little bit. The

00:25:47.220 –> 00:25:53.400
Jacob Stoops: The same thing as I was kind of getting getting deeper. Maybe that’s why it never actually worked worked out for me.

00:25:54.000 –> 00:26:11.850
Jacob Stoops: In terms of the graphic design in college and kind of taking that into A into a career because I was worried about money and how I was going to pay for things and so on and so forth. And it’s not necessarily unless you’re really, really, really good or really rare.

00:26:11.850 –> 00:26:16.770
Jacob Stoops: Talent not saying SEOs aren’t talented, but I think

00:26:17.850 –> 00:26:19.380
Jamie Alberico: At that again from the machine.

00:26:19.770 –> 00:26:21.030
Jamie Alberico: Right, while you’re in a job.

00:26:21.060 –> 00:26:35.010
Jacob Stoops: Great. You don’t even know. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like the timing for me was just right because this is like mid 2000s. And as I was flaming out of college SEO was

00:26:36.570 –> 00:26:47.640
Jacob Stoops: A great opportunity that not a lot of people could could do at that point in time. And I was like, well, well, there’s my differentiator. There’s what, there’s. What can make me unique and I feel like a lot of people

00:26:48.540 –> 00:27:08.580
Jacob Stoops: Ended up like that, in terms of looking looking for something else and not necessarily knowing what it was and not being able to put your finger on it. But before you know it, you’ve got a job in SEO at that time. Not a lot of people knew how to do which made it incredibly valuable.

00:27:09.900 –> 00:27:12.450
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. Was it was pretty that’s kind of

00:27:12.720 –> 00:27:14.700
Jamie Alberico: My philosophy.

00:27:15.960 –> 00:27:36.090
Jamie Alberico: And I find that my analytics philosophy is if if L statements for trying to muscle. So I absolutely deplorable and how good your do my mid term on the meaning of the word completely terrible back knowledge now deeply, deeply value that code is just living, we’re looking at it. Yeah.

00:27:37.980 –> 00:27:55.980
Jacob Stoops: So one thing I detected and Ashley, I’m calling you to the carpet again. And the reason I’m calling you to the carpet, not necessarily calling you to the carpet in a negative way we do talk a lot about self doubt and imposter syndrome and how

00:27:57.000 –> 00:28:11.940
Jacob Stoops: Powerful that can be and based on kind of what you had said about the writing and not necessarily feeling like you’re a good writer. And I’ve actually i feel like i’ve read your, your stuff for quite a while so like I think you’re doing something right.

00:28:13.830 –> 00:28:22.350
Jacob Stoops: Like, do you ever feel a sense of imposter syndrome and like self doubt. And I don’t know, I just, I always like to dive into that ask

00:28:22.770 –> 00:28:23.670
Jamie Alberico: You actually

00:28:25.470 –> 00:28:29.580
Ashley Berman Hale: Do I every single waking minutes, um,

00:28:30.600 –> 00:28:31.410
Ashley Berman Hale: No, I think that

00:28:31.470 –> 00:28:38.460
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, it’s a pendulum. I think that, in general, I feel like I am utter bullshit at most things

00:28:38.970 –> 00:28:46.470
Ashley Berman Hale: But the one thing that makes me feel good about myself and about the work that I’m doing is when I can help somebody else, whether it’s to solve a problem or

00:28:47.130 –> 00:28:53.280
Ashley Berman Hale: To get a better job I end up being this random career counselor and helping people get good jobs which I actually like I love doing.

00:28:54.960 –> 00:28:59.610
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really struggle with my knowledge and I had to come to terms with. I’m never going to be the

00:28:59.820 –> 00:29:05.220
Ashley Berman Hale: smartest person in the room. But if you’re the kind of person that surround yourself with smarter people like you’re in pretty you’re in a pretty good spot.

00:29:05.490 –> 00:29:12.840
Ashley Berman Hale: And I may not be the most clever, but I do like to learn and I have an appetite to learn and to try to understand so

00:29:13.410 –> 00:29:21.600
Ashley Berman Hale: imposter syndrome is really, really, really, really real. And I suffered in other areas of my life, including being a parent and playing a sport, but

00:29:22.230 –> 00:29:28.500
Ashley Berman Hale: If you can find one thing about yourself that you can put work toward that you can feel good about I’ve found that it allows me to sort of keep going.

00:29:29.010 –> 00:29:40.770
Ashley Berman Hale: And when I can’t. I call Jamie and she usually tells me to buck up that I am an important person with, you know, capital T thoughts and I deserve to be here and I can help people so

00:29:41.340 –> 00:29:46.620
Ashley Berman Hale: But it is something I struggle with. And it’s not even this passive struggling, it’s, I mean, I can’t even tell you I have

00:29:46.950 –> 00:29:54.450
Ashley Berman Hale: So I have OCD, but like obsessive thought patterns and one that’s been in my head for about 17 years is waking up and just wanting to scream into the void Mia, what the fuck am I even doing

00:29:54.990 –> 00:30:11.070
Ashley Berman Hale: What is this like and you could probably go back through my Twitter and see like how many times I’ve actually tweeted tweeted that out is like what am I even doing to help. Um so yeah I don’t recommend it but if anyone wants to talk about the old capitalized syndrome from here.

00:30:11.220 –> 00:30:25.320
Jacob Stoops: Understand in the reason I asked was, and I hope it didn’t come across as rude. Um, I saw I suffer from it as well. It’s like it’s, it can be crushing sometimes and for me.

00:30:26.160 –> 00:30:42.840
Jacob Stoops: Part of digging myself out of it was that this podcast going and feeling like, hey, I am good enough to go and talk to all of these really smart people, and I do know enough to be able to hold my ground.

00:30:43.560 –> 00:30:53.640
Jacob Stoops: With some of the best best folks in the in the industry and there’s just, it’s not just here, it permeates a lot of different parts of my life, and it is it is a daily

00:30:54.420 –> 00:31:08.580
Jacob Stoops: A daily struggle, and I know like it has been other than SEO. In general, probably the most frequently reoccurring subject across every episode of the podcast. So in the industry for whatever

00:31:09.300 –> 00:31:22.050
Jacob Stoops: Reason, you’ve got a bunch of people suffering from imposter syndrome. And it’s, I just, I find it quite amazing because of how many smart people there are, that people

00:31:23.190 –> 00:31:32.760
Jacob Stoops: That are that are that are incredibly, incredibly talented don’t seem to believe in their self and I just keep asking why, why is that, and

00:31:33.330 –> 00:31:45.030
Jacob Stoops: I think one of the best things that can come out of this podcast is to let people know. Like, you’re not alone. Some of the best people in the industry have self doubt literally all the time.

00:31:46.710 –> 00:31:48.600
Ashley Berman Hale: All the time. All the time and

00:31:48.690 –> 00:31:50.700
Jamie Alberico: I think our industry is made for it, though.

00:31:50.910 –> 00:31:51.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, it really is.

00:31:52.950 –> 00:31:55.260
Jamie Alberico: Our end everything we do.

00:31:55.740 –> 00:31:56.040
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:31:56.130 –> 00:32:02.010
Jamie Alberico: I’m there is very much the chance. You’ve been down this rabbit hole for so long. You come back up. You like Melbourne coast.

00:32:03.360 –> 00:32:09.540
Jamie Alberico: You’re no longer sure if you’ve gone full broken Roomba or have you figured out something incredibly valuable. Yeah, yeah.

00:32:09.990 –> 00:32:17.940
Jacob Stoops: And I feel like there are times, especially if you work on the agency side. I haven’t necessarily experienced this quite as much in house but like

00:32:18.780 –> 00:32:37.890
Jacob Stoops: There’s a lot of pressure and you can be the the best SEO, but if you’re putting a situation where there’s just no opportunity to succeed, doesn’t really matter how good of an SEO, you are. For example, if a client doesn’t implement your recommendations and then nothing

00:32:37.890 –> 00:32:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Happens right so

00:32:39.570 –> 00:32:48.210
Jacob Stoops: I think even the best SEOs go through a lot of failure and hopefully a lot of success as well, right, or we wouldn’t have jobs, but I think there’s a fear of

00:32:48.780 –> 00:32:55.620
Jacob Stoops: Failure with our clients as well as success and sometimes it’s in our hands and a lot of times it’s not

00:32:56.610 –> 00:33:08.910
Jacob Stoops: And I think for me, like there are times when that part of its crushing like okay, what can I say to make them think differently or to make them realize that hey, this is actually

00:33:09.330 –> 00:33:16.950
Jacob Stoops: We’re doing. We’re doing well, even if the results don’t fight look like it yet, stuff like that. So there’s a lot of pressure.

00:33:17.700 –> 00:33:21.840
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, sorry. Is it okay if I hop back in here cuz yeah

00:33:22.380 –> 00:33:35.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Well, and you’re dealing with such smart people. Right. I might think I’m clever and then I take two days off to roller skate and drink myself into oblivion, and come back and the entire industry has changed. So it’s very easy to feel like you’re slipping.

00:33:37.080 –> 00:33:44.550
Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really, really love this new trend that our industry has of kind of coming together to support each other because I have a pretty big gap.

00:33:45.150 –> 00:33:54.540
Ashley Berman Hale: In my SEO career as far as paid jobs and it was because of the toxic environment and the culture that we were in it just didn’t feel good it felt kind of gross like there was some shitty things happening.

00:33:56.220 –> 00:34:05.460
Ashley Berman Hale: But now I i love that people are talking more to each other. If you don’t know Mary Davies and the industry. She has created groups that help people and give them a safe place to talk about

00:34:05.760 –> 00:34:16.740
Ashley Berman Hale: Their personal struggles that I find really incredible. And for me, personally, I’ve I’m trying to be very brave capital, be brave, about talking about my mental illness and my doubts and the bad days that I have

00:34:17.430 –> 00:34:25.950
Ashley Berman Hale: And I have felt not only accepted but embraced and holy shit, I still have a job like some of the stuff I say in public. I can’t believe but

00:34:26.460 –> 00:34:30.990
Ashley Berman Hale: Being able to be out there and be vulnerable hasn’t hurt my career as far as I know.

00:34:31.740 –> 00:34:41.340
Ashley Berman Hale: But I would just encourage anyone if you’re in that place and you feel any sort of really from talking about it. You’re in good company and not in good company. As in, like, hell yeah let’s have a depression party.

00:34:42.900 –> 00:34:52.860
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I have thrown other parties that are better, but you’re in good company in that there’s generally some really compassionate people here that can empathize and can stand by you.

00:34:53.460 –> 00:34:59.880
Ashley Berman Hale: And sometimes that’s all you mean like sometimes I get a lot just from going to Jamie’s house or meeting somewhere and working side by side without even talking

00:35:01.290 –> 00:35:04.170
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve worked remotely for 10 years. So that’s very important.

00:35:05.220 –> 00:35:07.290
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, come on, really.

00:35:08.160 –> 00:35:08.730
Ashley Berman Hale: You’re three

00:35:09.180 –> 00:35:13.890
Jeff Louella: Now you’re if three of being removed, I guess, somewhere around there and I do

00:35:14.400 –> 00:35:24.810
Jeff Louella: sometimes miss having that camaraderie in the office where you you can’t talk about some of the stuff that’s on your, you know, things that are on your team. I mean, I really feel after watching a lot of the tech SEO boost stuff.

00:35:25.350 –> 00:35:35.550
Jeff Louella: I’m like, wow, I think, I think I need to really step up my game because 80% of that was about Python and machine learning, which

00:35:35.970 –> 00:35:45.900
Jeff Louella: I do think has you know a place. It just seemed like a whole conference based on it kind of made me like think overnight. I’m all of a sudden going like, I’m so far behind. I think it’s just why

00:35:47.760 –> 00:35:49.170
Jeff Louella: I always felt like I was pretty

00:35:49.170 –> 00:35:56.280
Jeff Louella: Much always a little bit of a step ahead. But I think one. Now we have with there is such a great tech community.

00:35:56.730 –> 00:36:03.330
Jeff Louella: That it’s like, oh, I think the tech guys aren’t the ones that are out there like pounding your chest, saying, look at me, and think now we have

00:36:03.990 –> 00:36:13.590
Jeff Louella: More of that community. And you know what the tech SEO slack group that were in there and I’m just like, wow, there’s like a million tech SEOs i thought i was like a one of a kind.

00:36:17.490 –> 00:36:21.120
Jeff Louella: And now there’s just yeah like that whole conference. I was watching going okay

00:36:22.650 –> 00:36:25.410
Jamie Alberico: I mean jr was like, and I made my own internet

00:36:25.470 –> 00:36:25.980
Jeff Louella: Yeah.

00:36:26.310 –> 00:36:27.510
Jamie Alberico: The bar was raised.

00:36:28.200 –> 00:36:33.810
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, the best like I swear to God, if I wasn’t married. He’s in trouble because those brains.

00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:41.730
Jacob Stoops: Looking I’m smart and like, I’m like, people like Jr. I’m like damn it I blame you. It’s your fault for being so smart, and I’m so

00:36:43.260 –> 00:36:43.410
Jacob Stoops: And

00:36:43.920 –> 00:36:44.490
Jeff Louella: So,

00:36:44.790 –> 00:36:45.930
Jeff Louella: He’s got that Southern charm.

00:36:45.960 –> 00:36:48.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Tuesday. Oh yeah, well,

00:36:49.080 –> 00:36:50.640
Jamie Alberico: Cupid, though, and I think we need to I

00:36:50.640 –> 00:36:51.270
Jacob Stoops: Know, I know.

00:36:51.990 –> 00:36:52.590
Jacob Stoops: Matt.

00:36:52.650 –> 00:36:54.750
Jacob Stoops: Was being facetious. This

00:36:56.220 –> 00:36:56.490
Jamie Alberico: But

00:36:56.550 –> 00:37:02.340
Jamie Alberico: Something that I’ll share my story here about feeling stupid and Ashley really being there for me because it’s like

00:37:04.770 –> 00:37:17.700
Jamie Alberico: So we went to tech. Are you into Google IO together. My first I, oh, I think it was 2016 HF, we went to. And if you’ve ever been to IO, you can go to

00:37:18.450 –> 00:37:32.400
Jamie Alberico: This panel to panel to panel with the most amazing experts in their field who knows so much on are bringing so much to move the community forward on to celebrate. I spent the day

00:37:33.150 –> 00:37:40.770
Jamie Alberico: Together concert every year and I spent the concert in bathroom so 27 hyperventilating and having an absolute panic attack.

00:37:41.220 –> 00:37:48.810
Jamie Alberico: On why I was there on how I had taken a spot from someone who could event here and using this information actually done something with it.

00:37:49.770 –> 00:38:00.900
Jamie Alberico: It was it was a terrible, terrible sensation. But at the end of it. I learned to offer myself grace and in those moments where I am clearly the dumbest kid in the room.

00:38:01.410 –> 00:38:12.450
Jamie Alberico: And that’s okay because I’m still in the room, and I’m willing to ask those questions that seem so one on one. And I feel like I’m willing to

00:38:12.960 –> 00:38:20.940
Jamie Alberico: Learn from people who are a lot smarter than me so Ashley prides herself on and curating up selection of really, really beautiful and brilliant people

00:38:21.900 –> 00:38:37.290
Jamie Alberico: Being around her and I learned to get there myself learn that it’s okay to feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Like that’s officially now my happy place is an absence of gravity just picking a point in my horizons. Right.

00:38:38.250 –> 00:38:50.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I, I considered a special talent to be surrounded by people that are smarter than you and then instead of feeling self conscious. If you can find comfort there and excitement there, then you’re you are good. I’m going to do.

00:38:50.670 –> 00:38:52.200
Jamie Alberico: Like roller derby for the ego.

00:38:52.500 –> 00:39:01.050
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, yeah. I’m also the worst roller derby player, but if you can find comfort in getting your actual ass kicked. Then it’s for you.

00:39:02.280 –> 00:39:03.690
Jamie Alberico: Humble here again because you just

00:39:03.720 –> 00:39:05.340
Jamie Alberico: Want on fallible brawl.

00:39:06.990 –> 00:39:09.570
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, I wonder, be prom queen, you guys.

00:39:09.630 –> 00:39:11.070
Jeff Louella: I’m so nice.

00:39:11.400 –> 00:39:13.050
Jacob Stoops: How long have you been doing roller derby.

00:39:13.350 –> 00:39:28.980
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, two and a half years, something like that. Not very long. It’s the first sport. I’ve ever played and I am an overweight, you know, working person who sits down for the last 36 years of my 36 year life. So it was a trip and a challenge. But heck

00:39:30.090 –> 00:39:38.580
Jacob Stoops: What, like what puts you because roller derby is not something like people do very often. So like you’re sitting around two or three years ago, like

00:39:40.140 –> 00:39:43.920
Jacob Stoops: Maybe I think I’ll go do roller derby like how did that come about.

00:39:45.060 –> 00:39:54.900
Ashley Berman Hale: So, um, I have two very fabulous daughters and the oldest one was into real interview she had read a graphic novel called roller girl, which is a fantastic graphic novel.

00:39:55.500 –> 00:40:01.290
Ashley Berman Hale: And she was interested in doing it, but I didn’t know anything about it. And we found out that there was a local team for adults and juniors

00:40:02.910 –> 00:40:11.550
Ashley Berman Hale: And she wasn’t quite old enough, and so I told her that I would give it a shot and see how this whole roller derby thing worked and

00:40:12.300 –> 00:40:20.670
Ashley Berman Hale: I gave it a shot and definitely threw up like my first night there, but was like dude, this this gear is expensive. I have to do this three months. Otherwise, like

00:40:21.150 –> 00:40:26.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve made a financial mistake which makes me nervous. So I stuck on for three months and just kept going.

00:40:27.270 –> 00:40:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a, it’s a funny environment. I know it seems you know a bit abrasive. But I will tell you that I have found

00:40:33.720 –> 00:40:44.040
Ashley Berman Hale: More community with other women there than I have any other place in my life more acceptance more diverse women, they will absolutely murder you on the track, but they’re the first ones to pick you up off the floor.

00:40:44.970 –> 00:40:56.700
Ashley Berman Hale: Constant compliments and encouragement, so maybe I’m there for the ego. I’m not the best roller skater. But it just feels really good to be around genuine people that want to see you succeed, but also are not going to go easy on you.

00:40:57.150 –> 00:40:59.190
Jacob Stoops: And that are going to elbow you in the face.

00:40:59.850 –> 00:41:09.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Sometimes I mean that’s not fully legal, but hey, but you know they’re the first person is to drive you to the ER and bring you a muffin while you’re waiting for the x ray so

00:41:10.950 –> 00:41:24.180
Ashley Berman Hale: So it’s a really solid community. I would say that, you know, when we work on computers so much. I would encourage you to get a hobby that involves your hands or physically wearing yourself out that’s been really important for the balance of my mental health to

00:41:26.340 –> 00:41:30.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Anyway, joined realtor becomes skate with me to cover letter b.com alright, just kidding.

00:41:31.050 –> 00:41:31.650
Jacob Stoops: Farther

00:41:32.640 –> 00:41:38.550
Jacob Stoops: Now, forgive me for my roller derby knowledge are there men’s roller derby circuits.

00:41:38.610 –> 00:41:39.120
Ashley Berman Hale: There are

00:41:39.180 –> 00:41:40.710
Jacob Stoops: Indeed, wow.

00:41:40.770 –> 00:41:50.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, there are Myrna which is my favorite acronym is the one and it’s the men’s roller derby Association. There’s a great team in Denver, where Jamie is there, same all over the country.

00:41:51.210 –> 00:42:05.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Still pretty female dominated. It’s a for women by women volunteer run sport all nonprofits. So we have a pretty strongly, but in the men’s roller derby women are also welcome to join. So usually when I meant to be one or two women.

00:42:07.770 –> 00:42:09.660
Ashley Berman Hale: But yeah, get out there strap on your skates.

00:42:09.900 –> 00:42:12.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I had no one to help you come up with a penny Derby name.

00:42:12.720 –> 00:42:14.190
Ashley Berman Hale: I got you. Oh.

00:42:14.670 –> 00:42:19.740
Jeff Louella: No, I’m gonna be taking my daughter to we were she’s found a new love for roller skating.

00:42:20.250 –> 00:42:30.630
Jeff Louella: And I mean, she’s only nine now but she’s I told her I was gonna take it a roller derby and she’s super excited but then the the league that’s around here went on break. But it could THEY COME BACK THE END OF JANUARY so

00:42:31.560 –> 00:42:36.960
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re on break too but Jeff, you said ping me offline because my nine year old was the one who got me into it.

00:42:37.020 –> 00:42:40.650
Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. Well, hopefully it doesn’t get me into it into it but

00:42:43.020 –> 00:42:47.070
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s hard to roller skate and not smile so straps escapes on

00:42:47.430 –> 00:42:57.840
Jeff Louella: Agreed. Now, they were fun. We go out there. We every kid in my house has a sport and my one daughter. We finally found. She’s an artist. She’s the artist of the family, but we found her sport, which is roller skating so

00:42:58.020 –> 00:43:06.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Isn’t that crazy how it works. Um, so, Jacob and Jeff, if you’re okay with this. Since we talked earlier a little bit of imposter syndrome. I’m going to

00:43:07.230 –> 00:43:22.650
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m going to say off topic. Real quick, and want to put them on a last thought out there on that item is just that we’ve had a lot of suicides in our industry, the past few years, there’s been I think I know this. There’s been too many one is too many. But there’s been too many

00:43:23.700 –> 00:43:35.280
Ashley Berman Hale: So I just open invitation. If anyone out there is Phil and rough and wants to chat. I am wicked good at bad memes mom jokes inappropriate comments and drunk texting, so

00:43:36.960 –> 00:43:39.480
Ashley Berman Hale: Just reach out and talk to someone. Yeah, I would.

00:43:39.990 –> 00:43:43.380
Jacob Stoops: I would say the same. I would offer the same invitation. I’ve

00:43:44.460 –> 00:43:51.540
Jacob Stoops: I mean, not everybody has been able to have experience with people going through that I do have

00:43:51.990 –> 00:44:05.340
Jacob Stoops: Experienced not necessarily myself but somebody very close to me has been battling with that and having those types of thoughts. So I’m maybe a little more well suited than than, than the next person. So I would also offer

00:44:06.660 –> 00:44:09.840
Jacob Stoops: Community to anyone that needs to talk and

00:44:11.130 –> 00:44:17.100
Jacob Stoops: Please reach out reach out you’ve got you’ve got friends, you’ve got family. Don’t let it go too far.

00:44:18.420 –> 00:44:19.470
Jacob Stoops: Don’t let it go too far.

00:44:20.820 –> 00:44:22.440
Jacob Stoops: Okay, we just got

00:44:22.620 –> 00:44:27.150
Ashley Berman Hale: Really really taken like I am so sorry I’ve cried twice so

00:44:27.210 –> 00:44:27.900
Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be done.

00:44:28.380 –> 00:44:30.720
Jacob Stoops: Once I’ve almost tear it up. So, man.

00:44:31.080 –> 00:44:31.530
God, I’m gonna

00:44:33.270 –> 00:44:34.740
Jacob Stoops: Get me here. Um,

00:44:35.430 –> 00:44:42.690
Jamie Alberico: Well, I think it was monotone robot and I’ve been a beautiful because we are fallible soft, squishy people

00:44:43.380 –> 00:44:52.140
Jamie Alberico: And being real humans is what keeps us together in a world that’s based on ideas and one TV respond partners and

00:44:52.950 –> 00:44:54.900
Jacob Stoops: Those that were not a robot came from.

00:44:42.120 –> 00:45:50.160
Jamie Alberico: Not a Robot coming from Ashley Berman Hale. Yeah, her bio section of the website says, I’m not a robot and she was sharing this off to me.

00:45:51.270 –> 00:45:56.970
Jamie Alberico: Just fantastic getting tickets and make a new branch all together, have an interest in doing well, can I

00:45:58.050 –> 00:46:04.050
Jamie Alberico: Have to Google domains bought the domain fun drinking game. By the way, just go when you get drugged by random domains.

00:46:04.800 –> 00:46:17.160
Jamie Alberico: Robot may have been purchased in one of those moments, a couple of beers and it’s a it’s very effective way to help people understand, you know, I guess, to where I said, all those captures you fill out. I’m not a robot. But I thought

00:46:20.190 –> 00:46:21.420
Jeff Louella: I recently bought a domain.

00:46:22.440 –> 00:46:23.520
Jeff Louella: Lasers and bacon.

00:46:23.610 –> 00:46:25.800
Jeff Louella: Because I figured. What’s cooler than lasers and bacon.

00:46:26.340 –> 00:46:26.820
Jamie Alberico: That that

00:46:29.250 –> 00:46:30.690
Jacob Stoops: We can do with that site. Yeah.

00:46:31.830 –> 00:46:37.710
Jeff Louella: You know that goes right now it’s in the vault of 30 other web domains, I one day, one wants to start so

00:46:39.210 –> 00:46:43.830
Jacob Stoops: Wow, what are, what made you think that and how much you had a drink.

00:46:46.020 –> 00:46:52.710
Jeff Louella: You know, I was looking, I was looking up laser engraving machines. And I was like, you know, it makes lasers cooler bacon.

00:46:54.900 –> 00:46:56.970
Jacob Stoops: Bacon just makes everything cooler, I guess.

00:46:57.300 –> 00:46:59.310
Jamie Alberico: Why are you custom engraving, the bacon.

00:47:00.750 –> 00:47:01.620
Jeff Louella: Know,

00:47:01.680 –> 00:47:02.820
Jamie Alberico: If any wedding thing.

00:47:03.270 –> 00:47:04.020
Jamie Alberico: Could be.

00:47:04.800 –> 00:47:06.630
Ashley Berman Hale: Market market it do it now.

00:47:09.690 –> 00:47:10.560
Ashley Berman Hale: The only thing that

00:47:10.950 –> 00:47:16.230
Jacob Stoops: Does not make cooler what sounds cool is vodka, that that

00:47:16.260 –> 00:47:17.280
I’ve had baked out

00:47:18.870 –> 00:47:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Bad

00:47:20.640 –> 00:47:22.350
Jamie Alberico: flavor to it. That’s not okay.

00:47:23.730 –> 00:47:27.840
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been working a Bloody Mary, but that’s the only time she

00:47:27.840 –> 00:47:30.510
Jamie Alberico: Really apply practical application of that about God.

00:47:32.430 –> 00:47:32.970
Jacob Stoops: I’m

00:47:34.230 –> 00:47:36.300
Jacob Stoops: writing and speaking so

00:47:37.740 –> 00:47:47.490
Jacob Stoops: Jamie nationally. I feel like you guys both do a mix or a fair amount of both writing and public speaking.

00:47:48.600 –> 00:47:58.290
Jacob Stoops: And then I also wanted to ask, Jamie. How did that video which you’ve now become kind of, I guess, the default representative for JavaScript SEO in connection with Google.

00:47:59.520 –> 00:48:08.910
Jacob Stoops: Video with Martin, um, how did that come about and and after that question. I’d love to get into the public speaking side of things, but I wanted to ask

00:48:08.940 –> 00:48:09.990
Ashley Berman Hale: You. I mean, is

00:48:11.550 –> 00:48:17.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I just would do. That is so cool that you are that person. I just know it tickles me. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up because it’s pretty bad.

00:48:18.240 –> 00:48:18.510
It is

00:48:19.830 –> 00:48:25.680
Jamie Alberico: JOHN MAYER I went ahead and made it the other day in JavaScript. The devil on I’m going to be very, very happy.

00:48:26.700 –> 00:48:28.020
Jamie Alberico: That started

00:48:29.460 –> 00:48:36.540
Jamie Alberico: Doing migrations international talk to Brighton SEO. I think that was my second or third talk ever you want to count meetups as well.

00:48:38.160 –> 00:48:49.890
Jamie Alberico: There was another human on my panel who is also discussing JavaScript framework and SEO and me to do a video meet up before the conference to figure out if we were stepping on each other’s toes.

00:48:50.430 –> 00:49:01.230
Jamie Alberico: I’m terrible at time zones absolutely awful at it ended up being like three in the morning seven my leg TARDIS bath road my blue hairs all a frenzy on

00:49:01.920 –> 00:49:08.070
Jamie Alberico: The screen based up and they realized oh my face, my face was like 15 feet wide right now because that’s the Google office.

00:49:08.880 –> 00:49:16.350
Jamie Alberico: And I just happen to be lucky enough to me bar, and as he he had just joined the webmaster team, I believe, Brighton was one of his first talk

00:49:16.980 –> 00:49:23.070
Jamie Alberico: On and just had a really lovely time talking with the team and he will show up too bright in with our blue hair becomes

00:49:23.700 –> 00:49:33.780
Jamie Alberico: a running gag that you’ve got to have blue hair to know JavaScript SEO, he invited me out to and from developers on it when they’re

00:49:34.380 –> 00:49:39.210
Jamie Alberico: Up to do this video me an amazing producer, your brother chance to meet and she’s on

00:49:40.110 –> 00:49:54.390
Jamie Alberico: All those video series. She’s lovely human being. It happened to be the right place, right time I’m betting on the right voice. I bet on JavaScript frameworks are being something that we continue to grow and provide a really effective user experience.

00:49:55.440 –> 00:49:59.940
Jamie Alberico: Getting our redesigned first place in 2014 we launched in 2015

00:50:04.620 –> 00:50:16.620
Jacob Stoops: I would say that was 2014 JavaScript was way ahead of your time. I feel like search engines even still today, although there are so much better than they were.

00:50:17.640 –> 00:50:20.970
Jacob Stoops: Still have a lot of trouble with crawling and I say,

00:50:21.000 –> 00:50:23.670
Jamie Alberico: 2014 when we got the project greenlight it took

00:50:24.360 –> 00:50:26.220
Jacob Stoops: He says to them, getting

00:50:26.280 –> 00:50:28.830
Jacob Stoops: Done SEO and 2014 so

00:50:29.160 –> 00:50:32.220
Jamie Alberico: No, no, we were rebuilding the site at that time and

00:50:32.580 –> 00:50:33.270
Jacob Stoops: Maybe a few weeks.

00:50:33.510 –> 00:50:38.610
Jamie Alberico: After Google announced they were deprecating the Ajax crawler the site went live

00:50:39.150 –> 00:50:39.510

00:50:40.560 –> 00:50:46.470
Jamie Alberico: I mean, we definitely did a plane SPACE MONKEY. Like, let’s see what happens. We actually called that project space party.

00:50:47.760 –> 00:50:59.970
Jacob Stoops: Nice. So, so with the with the public speaking, you guys. I feel like both do a fair amount of public speaking and or public moderating. What does that been like

00:51:02.580 –> 00:51:03.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Gary

00:51:06.930 –> 00:51:13.350
Ashley Berman Hale: So I man. I’m a bit of a reluctance speaker, and I’m very not polished, but I really like doing it.

00:51:14.100 –> 00:51:21.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, so, hashtag. If you’re, if you don’t have production level value conferences and you want to hang out and talk about cool things I’m game.

00:51:21.900 –> 00:51:30.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, but I use it as a way to personally push myself to go deeper into topics as well as just to make friends. So I’ve been working from home for 10 years

00:51:32.190 –> 00:51:35.520
Ashley Berman Hale: So I need to get out of the house, a couple times a year. So

00:51:35.520 –> 00:51:36.180
Jeff Louella: That was

00:51:36.300 –> 00:51:47.100
Ashley Berman Hale: So is pretty important. And then it’s just it’s a bit of a self challenge. So I had, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. As a kid, and took five years of speech therapy so

00:51:47.820 –> 00:51:53.340
Ashley Berman Hale: As a big fuck you to my jeans I decided to do more public speaking as a high school or an adult. So

00:51:53.820 –> 00:51:59.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Part of that is just a little personal renegade but it’s fun. I would love to say that more conferences, though.

00:52:00.330 –> 00:52:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: Bring more people to present collaboratively like I love presenting with Jamie and with other people that I know.

00:52:06.450 –> 00:52:09.840
Ashley Berman Hale: It helps to get you more bang for your buck again that peer review and peer editing.

00:52:10.800 –> 00:52:19.680
Ashley Berman Hale: And moderating is also fantastic instead of having the same conference organizers. If you’re welcome have other people in the field. There’s just so many cool opportunities there so

00:52:20.160 –> 00:52:26.730
Ashley Berman Hale: Like I said, I’m not a natural speaker, I definitely get nervous. I am known to throw up either before or after or both.

00:52:26.790 –> 00:52:27.060

00:52:28.650 –> 00:52:39.630
Ashley Berman Hale: You just but I still enjoy doing it and really appreciate it opportunities, but it’s it’s wild. It’s weird right i mean i go straight social blackout when I’m up there. Well,

00:52:39.870 –> 00:52:43.500
Jeff Louella: Actually, you also started the rally SEO Meetup group right

00:52:43.560 –> 00:52:45.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh, you bring it back, Jeff.

00:52:46.470 –> 00:52:48.180
Jeff Louella: Well, I mean, to go from not being

00:52:48.210 –> 00:52:55.260
Jeff Louella: Liking to speak to starting, you know, the largest Meetup group about SEO. That’s kind of like

00:52:55.530 –> 00:52:57.510
Jeff Louella: I’m jealous that I don’t live in Raleigh, sometimes

00:52:58.920 –> 00:53:03.300
Jeff Louella: I make it up there a couple times, you know, during the conferences and things like that. But at the same time.

00:53:04.080 –> 00:53:13.920
Jeff Louella: The community here, there seems really awesome. And it seems like anyone. It’s like a lot of helping each other grow and and it seems like an awesome community that’s

00:53:14.520 –> 00:53:23.580
Jeff Louella: You know, where we have people like Jr and Patrick and and you know every time I go or see anyone there. I’m like, wow, you all live in Raleigh, like how Raleigh become

00:53:24.150 –> 00:53:33.870
Ashley Berman Hale: Thing. Okay, so I will tell you that is one of my proudest moments. Um, I guess I’m like a little bit of a mama by heart, even though I’m not, I should not be left alone to raise any children but

00:53:34.860 –> 00:53:45.030
Ashley Berman Hale: It was when I was so I had moved to North Carolina after my father and my brother had died and decided on a fresh start moved to a place I never knew and

00:53:46.500 –> 00:53:53.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just convince my boss to let me use his office space to maybe try to get a few people together off hours to talk about this stuff.

00:53:54.030 –> 00:54:10.500
Ashley Berman Hale: And luckily for me. I was like, do you want to own it. And he said, No, go ahead, which was pretty awesome. But the first local. So here the first rally SEO meetup was definitely in the single digits. And I made homemade pies to try and bribe people to show up, um,

00:54:11.790 –> 00:54:18.090
Ashley Berman Hale: So it started out very, very small. But it was a really, really cool way to develop speaking skills for me.

00:54:18.390 –> 00:54:24.780
Ashley Berman Hale: But also to try to influence the market, a little bit like I told you I took a big long break from SEO because it was a little sticky so back then. I was

00:54:25.290 –> 00:54:35.130
Ashley Berman Hale: On a little bit more of a rampage of kindness. So I made it free and I made sure that they were different types for all levels that they were takeaways and actionable insights and that

00:54:35.670 –> 00:54:42.540
Ashley Berman Hale: All I was trying to do was enable local businesses to either do the work themselves or to know enough to be able to hire without liability.

00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:57.690
Ashley Berman Hale: And that sucker grew. I mean we out group at times. I was just begging businesses like hey, if I can get everyone to buy a beer. Can I, you know, hang out in this corner of your bar for an hour tonight and also if no one’s going to buy beer. I’ll just buy them all. It’s fine.

00:54:58.860 –> 00:55:07.650
Ashley Berman Hale: But it it grew and grew quickly and I can be a little anti social by nature. And so I had a partner after the first year to come and fill Buckley

00:55:08.430 –> 00:55:16.230
Ashley Berman Hale: Who is part of that like Patrick jr group. I think he’s a little header IBM. He’s fantastic but he is a social butterfly so

00:55:16.680 –> 00:55:23.670
Ashley Berman Hale: It was another situation where it couldn’t have been the way it did without partnering with somebody. So sharing is caring and what a cool way to start off

00:55:24.090 –> 00:55:28.740
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, my professional SEO career and kind of restarted after feeling like the industry was a little sad.

00:55:29.340 –> 00:55:39.570
Ashley Berman Hale: But I you know I left it in good hands and they’ve continued to do awesome things and I actually got to go back last year to speak for the 10 year anniversary how how rad, is that it’s like my babies in the double digits.

00:55:40.230 –> 00:55:45.270
Jamie Alberico: It’s awesome rampage of kindness is the most on brand thing I’ve ever heard.

00:55:46.740 –> 00:55:55.110
Ashley Berman Hale: That, that’s good. That’s all right, I got a t shirt rampage of kindness that goes along with them. The relentlessly casual label, I, I also appreciate

00:55:55.410 –> 00:56:07.650
Jacob Stoops: There’s an old at iOS or videos at video game believe called rampage. You should just steal that logo and close rampage of kindness and there you go. You got your own t shirt brand.

00:56:07.890 –> 00:56:10.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Cool, Jacob. Now I’m not going to get any work done today. I blame you.

00:56:10.950 –> 00:56:14.160
Jamie Alberico: Go discounted work branding and work.

00:56:18.900 –> 00:56:25.800
Jacob Stoops: Oh man, I’m so deep crawl, I’d be remiss to not talk about deep crawl. What’s it. What’s it like working the depot.

00:56:26.220 –> 00:56:37.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Ship date is the best I’m you know I’m optimistic but not naive. So, but I left a couple jobs, one that was a really toxic environment, one that was

00:56:38.550 –> 00:56:45.270
Ashley Berman Hale: Great, but just not the best fit. And I was feeling really low on my capabilities to feel like a productive you know employable human being.

00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:53.580
Ashley Berman Hale: And deep called crowd grabbed me and I will tell you I have had so much joy working here with the people that I work with the software.

00:56:54.330 –> 00:57:00.540
Ashley Berman Hale: And just the flexibility to learn so deep crawls uh you know it’s a software. It’s a crawler enterprise level. So it’s like

00:57:01.080 –> 00:57:15.330
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a lot like Screaming Frog who are amazing people that make a great product, but it’s sort of on steroids, so you’re able to grab historic data crawl in the cloud trend everything. And there’s just a ton of ways to define the data and filter right within the tool.

00:57:15.750 –> 00:57:17.400
Jacob Stoops: It also does it on your computer.

00:57:18.570 –> 00:57:25.410
Ashley Berman Hale: It doesn’t shut down your computer because it’s like, you know, your fan won’t even get hot. So that’s, you know, big selling point

00:57:26.070 –> 00:57:32.250
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s just a fun tool it’s it’s really interesting. I’ve really enjoyed working here, I would say if anyone hasn’t tried it.

00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:39.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Just ping me I would be happy to run across from you and you can poke around obviously not a salesperson because I’m really into giving it away for free but

00:57:40.710 –> 00:57:48.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I mean there’s cool data. So if you ever want me to run a sample crawl kick it over. I’m happy to do so you can, yeah, if anyone wants to bug me on Twitter. That’s probably the best place.

00:57:49.230 –> 00:57:57.600
Jeff Louella: In the cross seems to have been, you know, I guess the one of the first like SAS platforms to start hiring SEOs, you know, and I see now.

00:57:58.050 –> 00:58:01.050
Jeff Louella: You know, now you’re going to be competing against Patrick because he went over to

00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:12.480
Jeff Louella: H refs. But in general, they’re like, it seems deep crawl like this, the knowledge base has really grown, which is which is great. Like the articles or webinars or something. I look forward to every time they get launched

00:58:12.570 –> 00:58:17.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh my gosh, what a smart team, right. So first of all, I could meet Patrick and an arm wrestle so

00:58:17.700 –> 00:58:19.320
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m not right, but

00:58:20.520 –> 00:58:26.790
Ashley Berman Hale: But I might team is really great. The marketing team does a lot of crazy cool stuff so mean, everyone knows like Sam and Rachel and Jen and

00:58:27.240 –> 00:58:34.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Those are people who aren’t traditional SEOs and they’re smarter than most people I know, like they are awesome. My team we’re professional services team.

00:58:35.250 –> 00:58:43.440
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s six or seven of us, depending on the day but also hiring. So if you’re a crazy fabulous curious tech SEO and you want to work with me, which

00:58:43.950 –> 00:58:54.060
Ashley Berman Hale: Godspeed but ping me there too. So the company’s doing well. They just went through Series B funding and I’m just excited to work with more fantastic people, but they’ve really done something special.

00:58:54.510 –> 00:59:04.530
Ashley Berman Hale: In terms of priority to prioritizing data and good things for clients as well as making a really, really fantastic team and hiring obviously humble people right so that’s great.

00:59:06.240 –> 00:59:12.600
Jamie Alberico: So you guys always have a sandwich for me and you guys always have the Chargers that I forgot plane somewhere.

00:59:13.740 –> 00:59:14.280
Jamie Alberico: On a T.

00:59:14.700 –> 00:59:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: Shirt and Casey spell something like you have like the most. I don’t know. Hearing a material company like we will take care of anyone. So again, if you’re ever curious whether it’s job right here on my site for free, like just paying us for a helpful group.

00:59:28.830 –> 00:59:29.760
Jamie Alberico: Very good human

00:59:30.300 –> 00:59:32.670
Ashley Berman Hale: With sandwiches with sandwiches.

00:59:34.200 –> 00:59:39.390
Jacob Stoops: Oh so want to make sure we’re respectful of time I

00:59:40.440 –> 00:59:52.740
Jacob Stoops: Don’t think we’re gonna have time for news. I think we’re, we’re probably not going to, because we’ve had such wonderful conversation that is flowing. So naturally I don’t think we’re going to deep dive into technical SEO. I think we’ve talked

00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:59.580
Jacob Stoops: Quite enough. I did want to talk about a few more few more things before we wrap up the episode.

01:00:00.240 –> 01:00:13.140
Jacob Stoops: But because you guys have been so awesome to talk to. It’s been one of our most free flowing conversation. So I definitely, definitely. Thank you guys for that. It’s been really good, really good conversation.

01:00:14.640 –> 01:00:27.540
Jacob Stoops: Um, you guys have mentioned several times and I agree. I’ve noticed it. I, I sometimes choose not to take part, because I have a lot of my own thoughts, but you’ve mentioned the

01:00:29.100 –> 01:00:43.830
Jacob Stoops: The level of discourse in the in the industry over probably the last five to five to 10 years and I don’t know. I think I’ve noticed it as well, getting getting better, but it had gotten

01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:54.360
Jacob Stoops: A lot of it’s centered around conferences and whatnot, but it had gotten pretty toxic and pretty nasty there for for a little while. So I was wondering if y’all could

01:00:55.290 –> 01:01:07.020
Jacob Stoops: Talk a little bit about that and why you think it’s maybe gotten a little bit better. Over the course of the last, I don’t know, I feel like maybe the last year, maybe, maybe I’m overshooting that I don’t know but

01:01:07.470 –> 01:01:14.370
Jacob Stoops: I felt it also being really bad and then getting a little bit better. But I don’t know if you guys could talk about that a little bit.

01:01:17.670 –> 01:01:27.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I’m awesome well know, Jamie. You go first because I, yeah, I got to the end of something and I pretend like I’ve been drinking a whole time and I will just eat up all the time here.

01:01:28.320 –> 01:01:29.640
Jamie Alberico: But I love listening to your story.

01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.320
Jamie Alberico: very articulate and

01:01:31.410 –> 01:01:47.220
Jamie Alberico: You know you’ve always been a great mentor for me and this kind of scenario. I honestly can say I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only really been met with kindness from people at these conferences and support. I like to think perhaps that

01:01:48.240 –> 01:01:54.990
Jamie Alberico: I try and bring up there as well. But there’s no critic of really going to be as harsh as my internal one

01:01:55.440 –> 01:02:08.850
Jamie Alberico: So I think keeping her quiet on focused on when I’m there to do maybe take it away from me and giving attention to some of these more interesting moments that I hear about after the fact.

01:02:10.290 –> 01:02:14.580
Jamie Alberico: I haven’t been the first chance I can speak to a new the kerfuffle

01:02:16.620 –> 01:02:25.890
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, and I mean events bring their own level of potential toxicity, the industry and of itself has been a little tough to. So I’ve been in it for about 15 ish years maybe a little more

01:02:26.790 –> 01:02:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, and I did a lot of volunteer work and forums, that’s how I got that’s how I got started in a lot of it and forums can be a really awful, awful place to be, especially if you’re an idiot and just use your regular name Ashley’s everyone knows you’re a girl.

01:02:41.370 –> 01:02:42.600
Jamie Alberico: Was true man.

01:02:43.230 –> 01:02:45.360
Jamie Alberico: I’m not ever gave me with an androgynous name.

01:02:45.480 –> 01:02:51.300
Ashley Berman Hale: I know that so nice. Um, but it is, it’s been bad, but I think in a lot of the ways it’s getting better.

01:02:51.810 –> 01:02:57.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I just want to call out that, you know, I come from a place of privilege, even though it can be tough to be in tech as a woman.

01:02:58.380 –> 01:03:06.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I am already five steps ahead of some other folks, especially people of color LGBT Q that are out like there’s there’s a stiffness there and

01:03:07.470 –> 01:03:14.850
Ashley Berman Hale: I would really like it to be more fluid where people can come in and present and there’s a focus on ideas. I think we are getting there. I think we have warmed the ground so much

01:03:15.450 –> 01:03:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: And I think that I can be a bit spicy unintentionally and very clumsy with my calls to try and make things a little bit more better and inclusive.

01:03:23.820 –> 01:03:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: But for the most part people have been very generous and forgiving in terms of how I approach that and it spawns some really good conversations so

01:03:34.020 –> 01:03:40.140
Ashley Berman Hale: I think we’re getting better and a lot of ways, and I hope to keep saying encouragement in that way. I will see say that

01:03:41.100 –> 01:03:48.900
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s one conference in particular that is really great for me in terms of seeing that as the NGA Atlanta conference to Angular Atlanta conference where

01:03:49.560 –> 01:03:57.930
Ashley Berman Hale: The founder there works hard to make all majority women or people of color and especially women of color speakers without repeating speakers. It’s pretty fantastic.

01:03:59.010 –> 01:04:07.350
Ashley Berman Hale: And it takes a lot of work, like the organizer Zach will be there to tell you, it takes a lot of work to advise any other events, but he’ll tell you that the work is worth it. So,

01:04:08.070 –> 01:04:14.910
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re getting better. I’d like to push a little harder in that area. So leave with kindness, but also psychological safety for everyone to

01:04:16.620 –> 01:04:27.870
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I agree. And having been so I’ll just, I’ll just come right out with it. I am I dislike conferences and it’s partly because I’m anti social

01:04:28.770 –> 01:04:40.290
Jacob Stoops: A little bit. Although I can be social. But I you know I get uncomfortable and nervous in large groups of people. And so that makes a conference for me not very cool.

01:04:43.260 –> 01:04:47.100
Jacob Stoops: I’m like, I’m just really bad at small talk, and like literally

01:04:47.700 –> 01:05:03.390
Jacob Stoops: It makes me sweat just thinking of having to small talk. Not that I don’t like. I like people just fine. But like in large settings. I always feel super, super awkward, which means just by definition conferences are just not my thing.

01:05:04.650 –> 01:05:17.340
Jacob Stoops: But then there’s also, you know, what types of things go on at conferences with respect to harassment and the way people act towards each other and the, the lack of kindness.

01:05:18.510 –> 01:05:23.700
Jacob Stoops: I’ve run. And I don’t know if you have you guys ever heard the term conference circuit SEO.

01:05:24.840 –> 01:05:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Is that a new thing.

01:05:25.680 –> 01:05:32.940
Jamie Alberico: Yes, I turned out on leave, and I understand you correctly or first do the kind of repeating

01:05:33.360 –> 01:05:33.600
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

01:05:33.960 –> 01:05:37.980
Jamie Alberico: There’s a couple of key speakers, they tend to get things paid for, you’ve got other people

01:05:38.640 –> 01:05:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Yes.

01:05:39.450 –> 01:05:50.250
Jamie Alberico: Please go to our last represented in our community. And it’s very real that a lot of venues are going to charge money, a lot of money for these tickets and and don’t even pay for the speakers.

01:05:51.630 –> 01:05:52.500
Jacob Stoops: Right, right.

01:05:52.920 –> 01:05:53.820
Jamie Alberico: Very prohibitive.

01:05:54.360 –> 01:05:55.530
Jacob Stoops: There are

01:05:56.730 –> 01:06:08.670
Jacob Stoops: In I’m definitely not trying to lump. Anybody, anybody into this but this story for me is very, very specific to some people that I’ve worked with who

01:06:09.420 –> 01:06:17.430
Jacob Stoops: Were what I call a quote unquote on the conference circuit which means they went to and spoke at a lot of conferences and were looked up to by

01:06:17.850 –> 01:06:28.080
Jacob Stoops: A lot of people as subject matter experts. But then when it came time for them to actually work with me together on certain accounts.

01:06:28.800 –> 01:06:38.310
Jacob Stoops: I found that they fell very, very flat in terms of my expectation of their level of quality and what I actually got from them.

01:06:39.060 –> 01:06:51.840
Jacob Stoops: So that has left me with a little bit of a bad taste in my, in my mouth with respect to what I’ll call certain conference circuit SEO. So just in general conferences are

01:06:52.860 –> 01:07:00.000
Jacob Stoops: Not my favorite thing. But what I have enjoyed seeing recently is the increased focus on

01:07:01.260 –> 01:07:11.940
Jacob Stoops: One acting better treating people better and hopefully fewer instances of harassment. I know women, definitely go through

01:07:12.600 –> 01:07:21.780
Jacob Stoops: A lot and I feel like I’ve never been like Jamie, just like you said, it’s always for me been second hand. I feel like every man definitely knows

01:07:22.110 –> 01:07:27.300
Jacob Stoops: Of a woman who has experienced some sort of sexual harassment. But for me, I’ve never

01:07:27.780 –> 01:07:33.780
Jacob Stoops: It’s never been something I’ve witnessed or anything like that. So I’m always only hearing about it secondhand and I’m less than

01:07:34.470 –> 01:07:50.220
Jacob Stoops: Less than aware of when that that type of thing might be happening. If I were aware. I would definitely definitely speak up. So I’m I feel like sometimes in a bit of an awkward position of wanting to speak up and being supportive but ever being like Johnny on the spot for when an event.

01:07:51.300 –> 01:07:55.350
Jacob Stoops: Happens or transpires so little bit of an awkward awkward.

01:07:56.490 –> 01:08:07.890
Jacob Stoops: Position and I would say so obviously that needs to get better. I don’t know how much that is still going on. But I know it was pretty pervasive in the past and super unfortunate.

01:08:08.430 –> 01:08:18.240
Jacob Stoops: The other thing that I’m really enjoying is the emphasis on speaker balance. I, I, I have a hard time when I see

01:08:19.710 –> 01:08:26.730
Jacob Stoops: An SEO team at a company that is entirely and I’ve experienced this a lot in the past entirely male dominated

01:08:27.540 –> 01:08:31.710
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, they’re celebrating hiring the first female CEO and a team in 2019

01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:34.080
Jamie Alberico: I mean that’s an incredibly sad.

01:08:34.440 –> 01:08:39.810
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s it’s really sad. And I have a hard time with conferences where I look at the

01:08:40.200 –> 01:08:49.350
Jacob Stoops: The speaker lineup and I don’t see a picture of somebody with color. I don’t see a picture of somebody who’s female or you see it, but there’s not nearly enough balance so

01:08:50.070 –> 01:08:58.680
Jacob Stoops: Not something that I think is, is a good thing. And something that I think is trending in the right direction. I don’t think it’s entirely there.

01:08:59.220 –> 01:09:10.920
Jacob Stoops: But I would like to see more more conferences and more companies strive for that balance and not balance for the sake of balance but balance because you really believe

01:09:11.760 –> 01:09:19.470
Jacob Stoops: That that those those people and I’m definitely one of the privileged people really bring value in a different perspective.

01:09:19.920 –> 01:09:27.480
Jacob Stoops: Not just hiring or booking because you need a certain ratio, right. So that’s something that I’m hoping

01:09:28.110 –> 01:09:37.260
Jacob Stoops: Gets a little bit better. But again, as I’ve said before, because I’m kind of an outside observer. I don’t choose to go to a lot of conferences.

01:09:37.950 –> 01:09:48.600
Jacob Stoops: I’m more kind of I feel like routing from the sidelines and trying to push where where I can in my areas of influence which are which are a few outside of my own house so

01:09:50.340 –> 01:10:06.330
Jamie Alberico: I ok here is because that one for me first one I totally understanding the lack of comfort being around that many people I’ve been asked how I seem to to come on stage and my secret ready guys years of practice with a panic disorder.

01:10:06.780 –> 01:10:09.210
Jamie Alberico: Like I have learned how to have a heart attack feel like

01:10:09.210 –> 01:10:18.750
Jamie Alberico: Even the Rolodex prices on keep a calm state so repurpose if you if you’ve been through that you think of it as reclaiming and repurposing all those years of practice.

01:10:19.770 –> 01:10:25.410
Jamie Alberico: And secondly, there are now more groups out here who are advocating to get their women together a presentation together.

01:10:25.710 –> 01:10:33.690
Jamie Alberico: If you are a winless there are used one support women in tech SEO, there is a women in tech SEO Slack channel you can find them on Twitter and on Facebook.

01:10:34.020 –> 01:10:44.190
Jamie Alberico: Joining that conversation. I know some really great conferences coming up that have reached out to them to try and help balance out our speakers find people who are representing very skilled

01:10:45.330 –> 01:10:48.630
Jamie Alberico: Technologies to be on stage and present from their perspective.

01:10:49.800 –> 01:10:53.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah. And if you’re a sweet guy like maybe instead of accepting the panel.

01:10:54.420 –> 01:11:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Or accepting the speaking gig. Why don’t you recommend somebody else make it easier on the event organizers because they always say they can’t. But I guarantee there’s someone around you.

01:11:03.870 –> 01:11:08.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Who may be a first time or second time speaker, but has really incredible things to say.

01:11:08.670 –> 01:11:14.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I think if you speak too much often you’re missing out on that constant learning that you need in order to stay on top of the industry.

01:11:15.330 –> 01:11:19.290
Ashley Berman Hale: Or if you’re never speaking, then you’re missing out on an opportunity to find in your craft so

01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:29.610
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s great that some people will have reached that pinnacle, and they are trusted and loved and everyone likes to see them speak but it means nothing. If you don’t turn around and homework, you know, two more people up.

01:11:29.640 –> 01:11:31.110
Jeff Louella: So I would say share the spotlight.

01:11:31.590 –> 01:11:43.800
Ashley Berman Hale: And I don’t have a huge network or you know much influence but if anyone out there who hasn’t spoken before wants to speak. If I could put you in contact with anyone or any conference. Like, I’m happy to help.

01:11:44.850 –> 01:11:49.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Said, I don’t have a ton of influence, but I’m willing to use it to just get more voices up there. We should all do that.

01:11:51.150 –> 01:11:59.730
Jeff Louella: Yeah, it’s funny. I’ve been working on a little side project where I’ve downloaded the titles of every SEO speech.

01:12:00.840 –> 01:12:11.280
Jeff Louella: By the last like two years. And my goal was, I was going to try to make like a SEO speech generator that just put out a topic because that’s one of the things when I

01:12:12.120 –> 01:12:25.440
Jeff Louella: Think about doing any type of speaking. I’m like, what am I going to talk about that no one else is talking about. So I was like, hey, and I can want to play with AI and machine learning. I was like, maybe I can make a generator just generates topics. And here’s your next speech.

01:12:26.970 –> 01:12:28.020
Jamie Alberico: I would love to see this.

01:12:28.230 –> 01:12:42.330
Jeff Louella: Play. Yeah, it was kind of gonna be tongue in cheek, because I just wanted to like I wanted to be bad AI to so it made it funny but so that is in the works. It’s. But one thing I noticed was when I would Dee doop. There were a lot

01:12:43.350 –> 01:12:48.930
Jeff Louella: So that was one of the things that were there was a lot of that was like duplicate on air and it made me really think like

01:12:50.100 –> 01:12:56.220
Jeff Louella: You know, going and a lot of it might have been like the digital summits, where people travel and do the same presentation all across the country.

01:12:56.940 –> 01:13:03.090
Jeff Louella: But there were a lot of like the same things we were talking about and that’s one thing with the tech SEO boost conference.

01:13:03.450 –> 01:13:13.530
Jeff Louella: It was like something totally different copy way off guard. Because even last year, maybe a Catalan or one person talked about AI or machine learning and Python and this year was 80% of the people.

01:13:14.130 –> 01:13:24.450
Jeff Louella: Which which was was pretty interesting. But in general, I love the, you know, I want to go out and talk a little bit more, but I really love to do it more in the local level and trying to

01:13:25.080 –> 01:13:30.840
Jeff Louella: There’s not a huge SEO community here in Atlanta. So something I’d like to start to put together and build out

01:13:33.660 –> 01:13:47.100
Jeff Louella: But what I’m just kind of like to end the show just kind of asking a certain question and just kind of advice like if you were someone who was starting off in the SEO world right now. What kind of advice would you give someone who is starting out.

01:13:52.440 –> 01:14:03.840
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m yeah I’m used to always jumping in first here so I’m cognizant of that. I’m sorry. I would just say stay curious and stay kind, um, that’s it.

01:14:04.770 –> 01:14:06.720
Jeff Louella: That that’s just a range of kindness.

01:14:07.500 –> 01:14:08.340
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

01:14:08.370 –> 01:14:10.110
Jamie Alberico: Well, I am page the kindness.

01:14:10.560 –> 01:14:18.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, a rampage of kindness, please. And I have this, uh, this is kind of gross, but I’ve been a professional coaching and stuff like that, where they say hey,

01:14:19.230 –> 01:14:27.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Create a tagline for yourself. And that sounds a little silly, but I have one. And I’ve been using it for over a decade and it’s it’s really done me well and

01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:42.000
Ashley Berman Hale: My personal tagline is stupid work. So that means a lot of different things to me. But part of that is just staying curious and you know being nice to people and figuring out where you can help rather than stand on the shoulders of others. So whatever you do, do good work.

01:14:42.780 –> 01:14:43.860
Jeff Louella: Awesome. What do you think, Jamie.

01:14:46.950 –> 01:14:57.480
Jamie Alberico: I would say that there are no dumb questions engineering a room where you only understand and 20 week of what’s going on. That’s okay. I’ll take notes.

01:14:58.350 –> 01:15:06.690
Jamie Alberico: Ask for the handle. What do you mean by this word, particularly in technology. I have some English. I’m looking in bed with dev teams like stocks.

01:15:07.500 –> 01:15:18.060
Jamie Alberico: And people use different words, getting the same thing on half of our value of SEO is being able to map up those synonyms and translate between these teams.

01:15:18.420 –> 01:15:24.420
Jamie Alberico: Isn’t the end. We all want to make good things. We all have this desire to those good things to be found and

01:15:24.840 –> 01:15:39.450
Jamie Alberico: This is how we get there is by being willing to be humble and say, I don’t understand what that means. Could you explain it. Just keep learning. Even when it hurts your head and you crying about the install

01:15:41.850 –> 01:15:48.480
Ashley Berman Hale: So many times I’ve like cried, and I’m like, I don’t understand. And then an hour later I’ll be like, holy shit, I figured it out like

01:15:48.840 –> 01:15:55.590
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, it’s a crime, and it certainly feels worth it. Like you’re just hitting the wall heading the law hitting a woman suddenly and make sense and it’s beautiful.

01:15:56.190 –> 01:15:57.150
Jamie Alberico: Yes, and have a

01:15:57.270 –> 01:15:57.810
Good thing.

01:15:58.890 –> 01:16:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I think tech SEOs walk that line between the

01:16:02.820 –> 01:16:03.960
Jamie Alberico: Federal ambition.

01:16:08.970 –> 01:16:14.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, oh yeah, she is sorry last thought. Don’t be afraid to ask them questions. All right. I promise I’m done talking. Yeah.

01:16:17.430 –> 01:16:34.710
Jeff Louella: Awesome. Well, we’d love to thank you for coming on the show me, I think, is such great conversation that we had, I feel that you two together. It was it was a great idea. And we’re trying to put you separately, but I think together me. It was just awesome and made the conversation flow better

01:16:35.010 –> 01:16:35.970
Jacob Stoops: Dynamic Duo

01:16:36.600 –> 01:16:37.320

01:16:38.850 –> 01:16:39.270
Jacob Stoops: Alright.

01:16:39.750 –> 01:16:40.230
Jeff Louella: So my

01:16:40.560 –> 01:16:41.250
Jamie Alberico: Life, mate.

01:16:41.670 –> 01:16:45.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, I love you very much. Jamie, it’s good to have a way

01:16:45.360 –> 01:16:45.990
Jamie Alberico: Of you to bed.

01:16:47.760 –> 01:16:48.750
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye guys

01:16:50.400 –> 01:16:50.970
Thank you.

#31: Angela Bergmann

Episode Summary

In this episode, we’re chatting with Angela Bergmann, Senior SEO Strategist at Advance Local and fellow Ohioan! 

We talk about: 

Episode Transcript

00:00:02.280 –> 00:00:09.480
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops again here with the Page 2 Podcast. How’s everybody doing?

00:00:10.380 –> 00:00:12.960
Angela Bergmann: Right, assuming everybody’s doing great.

00:00:13.349 –> 00:00:16.410
Jacob Stoops: We’re also here with Mr. Jeff, Louella

00:00:17.910 –> 00:00:18.210
Jeff Louella: Hey,

00:00:19.470 –> 00:00:23.790
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I’m gonna need you to be a little bit more boisterous with your intro

00:00:25.380 –> 00:00:26.850
Jacob Stoops: Your two weeks out from me.

00:00:26.850 –> 00:00:27.330
Jacob Stoops: Forgetting

00:00:28.410 –> 00:00:32.640
Jacob Stoops: So like, I’m thinking you’re really coming into your own. So that’s one give me

00:00:32.880 –> 00:00:33.180
Jacob Stoops: More

00:00:33.240 –> 00:00:33.840
Jacob Stoops: Give me a little more

00:00:34.560 –> 00:00:35.730
Jeff Louella: Know, everybody.

00:00:35.850 –> 00:00:36.540
Jacob Stoops: Here we go.

00:00:36.840 –> 00:00:38.130
Jacob Stoops: And then we are

00:00:39.000 –> 00:00:40.200
Angela Bergmann: Here with

00:00:40.230 –> 00:00:42.600
Jacob Stoops: Angela Berkman. How are you doing, Angela.

00:00:43.860 –> 00:00:47.550
Angela Bergmann: Fantastic. How are you guys doing we’re doing

00:00:47.640 –> 00:00:57.900
Jacob Stoops: Awesome. Actually, I’m not doing awesome. I have to confess about 45 minutes ago. And I’m gonna I’m gonna deviate into a quick story. I got an email.

00:00:58.230 –> 00:00:59.250
Angela Bergmann: From GoDaddy.

00:00:59.280 –> 00:00:59.880
Angela Bergmann: Who I

00:01:00.000 –> 00:01:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Use for hosting. I don’t know why I use them and

00:01:02.670 –> 00:01:04.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure people will yell at me about that.

00:01:04.410 –> 00:01:04.620
Angela Bergmann: But

00:01:04.650 –> 00:01:13.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s just been who I’ve been using. And I’ve been too lazy to switch that I bought some new Linux hosting and I did not buy

00:01:15.060 –> 00:01:15.540
Jacob Stoops: 45

00:01:15.570 –> 00:01:16.170
Angela Bergmann: Minutes ago and

00:01:17.490 –> 00:01:17.940
Jacob Stoops: 45

00:01:17.970 –> 00:01:19.500
Jacob Stoops: Minutes ago so I

00:01:20.670 –> 00:01:25.560
Jacob Stoops: Just before we all jumped on had to call it GoDaddy customer service to

00:01:26.610 –> 00:01:29.640
Jacob Stoops: One cancel that order because I did not lie.

00:01:30.390 –> 00:01:30.660
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:01:31.080 –> 00:01:35.670
Jacob Stoops: And to figure out, like, who the hell hacked my account and

00:01:35.760 –> 00:01:37.350
Jacob Stoops: I came to find out that

00:01:37.380 –> 00:01:47.850
Jacob Stoops: One domain. I own. And I’m going to have to take care of it after we after we finished recording is actually now a Russian gambling websites. So it looks like

00:01:47.850 –> 00:01:49.350
Angela Bergmann: There’s been some Russian

00:01:50.460 –> 00:01:50.820
Jeff Louella: Again,

00:01:51.000 –> 00:01:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, the account. The Russian

00:01:52.830 –> 00:01:54.960
Angela Bergmann: lessons are trying to get in and impersonate me

00:01:55.410 –> 00:01:57.930
Jacob Stoops: And in fact, seem to have called GoDaddy.

00:01:58.260 –> 00:02:00.840
Jacob Stoops: With my information and ordered

00:02:01.440 –> 00:02:05.640
Jacob Stoops: The hosting for, for whatever reason, so yeah.

00:02:06.300 –> 00:02:06.330
Angela Bergmann: I

00:02:06.600 –> 00:02:07.740
Jacob Stoops: Had to reset my password.

00:02:08.310 –> 00:02:11.070
Jacob Stoops: That up some two factor authentication and

00:02:12.210 –> 00:02:13.500
Jacob Stoops: I’m coming into this

00:02:14.460 –> 00:02:16.710
Jacob Stoops: A little bit annoyed doesn’t know.

00:02:18.810 –> 00:02:21.660
Angela Bergmann: We all want to spend our Friday. Right, exactly.

00:02:22.080 –> 00:02:24.300
Jacob Stoops: Exactly dealing with Russian interference.

00:02:24.720 –> 00:02:25.140

00:02:27.300 –> 00:02:28.860
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, so

00:02:29.310 –> 00:02:32.190
Jacob Stoops: Angela good authority.

00:02:32.220 –> 00:02:33.420
Jacob Stoops: That you are a senior

00:02:33.420 –> 00:02:45.240
Jacob Stoops: SEO strategist and advanced local and I’ll have you know that you are the first Ohio and that we’ve brought on and not to say that you’re the you’re the first native Ohio.

00:02:45.810 –> 00:02:47.160
Angela Bergmann: Some other folks in

00:02:47.160 –> 00:03:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Native to Ohio, but they don’t live there. Now, you’re the first one that actually still lives in Ohio and and in terms of proximity. I’m in Columbus, you’re, you’re the closest interviewee to me in terms of actual proximity so

00:03:01.410 –> 00:03:03.300
Angela Bergmann: Congratulations Ohio pride.

00:03:03.450 –> 00:03:05.400
Angela Bergmann: Yay so guys

00:03:08.010 –> 00:03:08.640
Jacob Stoops: I oh

00:03:11.040 –> 00:03:11.730
Angela Bergmann: That’s all I know.

00:03:12.090 –> 00:03:13.830
Angela Bergmann: And people and people who do not

00:03:13.830 –> 00:03:18.210
Jacob Stoops: Follow. Follow college football are going to have no idea what actually do not follow Ohio State or

00:03:18.720 –> 00:03:19.890
Jacob Stoops: No idea what just happened.

00:03:19.920 –> 00:03:24.750
Angela Bergmann: You play hang on sloopy and will be good. Exactly, exactly.

00:03:24.780 –> 00:03:25.200

00:03:26.610 –> 00:03:27.780
Angela Bergmann: You are in

00:03:29.340 –> 00:03:30.690
Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember. Did you say you

00:03:30.690 –> 00:03:31.950
Jacob Stoops: Work in Akron and live in

00:03:31.950 –> 00:03:33.360
Jacob Stoops: Cleveland or live in Cleveland.

00:03:33.360 –> 00:03:34.680
Jacob Stoops: And work in Akron.

00:03:35.670 –> 00:03:39.870
Angela Bergmann: Upset I live in Akron, and I work in Cleveland. OK, so the

00:03:40.260 –> 00:03:42.090
Angela Bergmann: Branded up to

00:03:42.120 –> 00:03:42.540

00:03:44.640 –> 00:03:52.770
Angela Bergmann: Cool, I am I work in the land and I’m from where LeBron is from actually the same part of accurate. Even so, I have a lot of games pride.

00:03:53.490 –> 00:03:54.930
Jeff Louella: Yeah. Brown of SEO.

00:03:55.020 –> 00:03:56.760
Jacob Stoops: You go to his, his high school

00:03:57.210 –> 00:03:58.080
Jacob Stoops: St. Vincent St.

00:03:59.250 –> 00:04:06.180
Angela Bergmann: No, actually I went to the school. He didn’t go to because he went to private school. Okay.

00:04:08.730 –> 00:04:09.810
Angela Bergmann: Okay. All right.

00:04:11.340 –> 00:04:12.120
Jacob Stoops: So,

00:04:13.980 –> 00:04:20.250
Jacob Stoops: I have to ask you before we get into your background on another tangent. Did you watch the Browns game last Thursday.

00:04:21.240 –> 00:04:23.730
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally. What

00:04:24.120 –> 00:04:24.900
Angela Bergmann: Happened. I’ve got

00:04:24.930 –> 00:04:27.420
Jacob Stoops: Like I feel like I’ve haven’t been able to talk to

00:04:27.420 –> 00:04:28.680
Jacob Stoops: anybody except maybe my

00:04:29.400 –> 00:04:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Basically just

00:04:30.570 –> 00:04:32.130
Jacob Stoops: Knowing about the whole situation.

00:04:32.130 –> 00:04:32.400

00:04:33.420 –> 00:04:34.440
Jacob Stoops: What the hell happened like

00:04:34.440 –> 00:04:37.170
Jacob Stoops: What’s going on here with with our brownies and

00:04:37.170 –> 00:04:38.460
Jacob Stoops: Mr. Miles, yo.

00:04:39.720 –> 00:04:47.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s the it’s the we hate the Steelers so it’s already going to be a contentious game and then like I’m obviously mad at Garrett

00:04:48.780 –> 00:04:57.420
Angela Bergmann: Acting like an idiot. I’m sitting Rudolph from the head, but his helmet. Getting down the line, you know, open Joby shoving in not good.

00:04:57.900 –> 00:05:09.840
Angela Bergmann: You know, but like Rudolph not getting any punishment for escalating the fight is what makes me mad. And the other thing that makes me mad, is that I know that they’re escalating punishments for things, but like

00:05:11.520 –> 00:05:26.730
Angela Bergmann: Convicted wife leaders get a 16 suspension yep and Garrett getting an indefinite suspension for hitting a guy on the field during a fight that was escalated with a helmet. Yeah, use a little unfair.

00:05:28.950 –> 00:05:29.160
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:05:30.240 –> 00:05:32.040
Angela Bergmann: It’s fun got

00:05:32.670 –> 00:05:36.090
Jacob Stoops: Kareem hunt on our team and we’re not fielding a team.

00:05:36.090 –> 00:05:38.850
Angela Bergmann: Full of choir boys. Yeah, yeah.

00:05:39.150 –> 00:05:42.870
Jacob Stoops: Eight games for reading a woman and

00:05:43.650 –> 00:05:43.830
Angela Bergmann: It.

00:05:43.920 –> 00:05:44.880
Jacob Stoops: hits a quarterback.

00:05:45.210 –> 00:05:48.300
Jacob Stoops: In his head with a helmet. Now granted, he could have killed him. So there is

00:05:49.800 –> 00:05:50.580
Angela Bergmann: Reacting with

00:05:50.910 –> 00:05:51.660
Angela Bergmann: Coca Cola.

00:05:52.410 –> 00:05:53.730
Jeff Louella: In depth. I saw him kicker.

00:05:54.330 –> 00:06:11.160
Angela Bergmann: Though yeah open Jovi like Patsy kicking him while he’s down and it’s not pounds. He got lucky that he didn’t actually really connect too much, but he was kicking. Yeah. Garrett while he was down in like none of them are choirboys without this is like this.

00:06:11.250 –> 00:06:13.020
Jacob Stoops: This all happened with eight seconds.

00:06:13.020 –> 00:06:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Left and to like put in perspective.

00:06:15.480 –> 00:06:16.860
Jacob Stoops: The long history that

00:06:16.890 –> 00:06:19.050
Angela Bergmann: We have as as as

00:06:19.140 –> 00:06:22.800
Jacob Stoops: browns fans honestly as as Cleveland fan South

00:06:22.800 –> 00:06:24.750
Angela Bergmann: Until the Cavs championship. A few

00:06:24.750 –> 00:06:29.010
Jacob Stoops: Years ago, being a Cleveland fan over the course of the last 30 or 40

00:06:29.460 –> 00:06:31.140
Angela Bergmann: Years 20 years

00:06:31.200 –> 00:06:32.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s been just complete

00:06:32.430 –> 00:06:34.260
Jacob Stoops: Misery and with the browns. Yeah.

00:06:34.560 –> 00:06:37.740
Angela Bergmann: You’re sick. First off, our team was taken.

00:06:37.740 –> 00:06:39.300
Jacob Stoops: Away then came back.

00:06:40.140 –> 00:06:40.800
Angela Bergmann: Garbage.

00:06:40.920 –> 00:06:43.170
Jacob Stoops: Since it came back. Yeah, they

00:06:43.260 –> 00:06:44.040
Jacob Stoops: Always

00:06:44.130 –> 00:06:49.830
Jacob Stoops: Find a way to disappoint us so like to really put it in perspective, this is the first

00:06:50.040 –> 00:06:51.270
Angela Bergmann: Factory sadness.

00:06:51.450 –> 00:06:53.340
Jacob Stoops: Are two rivals in the same season.

00:06:53.340 –> 00:06:55.710
Jacob Stoops: That being the Steelers and the Ravens.

00:06:56.310 –> 00:06:58.620
Angela Bergmann: And I was, I was on cloud nine. I was like, yes.

00:06:58.860 –> 00:07:00.120
Jacob Stoops: We didn’t just beat the Steelers

00:07:02.460 –> 00:07:04.200
Angela Bergmann: I’m sitting there going like this is great.

00:07:04.230 –> 00:07:04.950
Jacob Stoops: This is great.

00:07:05.580 –> 00:07:06.180
Jacob Stoops: And then with

00:07:06.210 –> 00:07:07.350
Angela Bergmann: Eight seconds left.

00:07:07.380 –> 00:07:18.180
Jacob Stoops: We see this kind of melee and like my heart sinks and I’m like, they couldn’t they couldn’t allow us as fans to get out of this game without disappointing us

00:07:18.540 –> 00:07:19.470
Jacob Stoops: One more, one

00:07:19.710 –> 00:07:21.450
Jacob Stoops: More time as a brown

00:07:21.750 –> 00:07:24.060
Angela Bergmann: Exactly. For the other shoe to

00:07:24.060 –> 00:07:27.030
Jacob Stoops: Drop and like we’re gonna win the

00:07:27.150 –> 00:07:29.880
Jacob Stoops: Game and the other shoe isn’t going to drop and then Frank or

00:07:30.510 –> 00:07:32.880
Jacob Stoops: prompt me it was like, Nope. Nope.

00:07:33.030 –> 00:07:33.630
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s

00:07:34.200 –> 00:07:38.940
Jacob Stoops: just dropped in a big way in an embarrassingly Cleveland way so

00:07:39.240 –> 00:07:39.510

00:07:42.300 –> 00:07:45.420
Angela Bergmann: Have factory and stab this yeah it is the factory of

00:07:45.420 –> 00:07:46.140
Jacob Stoops: Sadness. So

00:07:48.180 –> 00:07:48.540
Jacob Stoops: The

00:07:48.570 –> 00:07:49.770
Jacob Stoops: The unimportant stuff.

00:07:49.770 –> 00:07:50.940
Angela Bergmann: Like important

00:07:51.210 –> 00:07:53.160
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. Tell us about your

00:07:53.280 –> 00:07:54.390

00:07:54.390 –> 00:07:55.440
Angela Bergmann: You come from, who are

00:07:55.440 –> 00:07:55.770
Jacob Stoops: You

00:07:55.800 –> 00:07:56.910
Jacob Stoops: How did you get into SEO.

00:07:58.620 –> 00:08:11.940
Angela Bergmann: So I got into SEO through Twitter really in like 2007 so taking it all the way back. I decided when we got our first desktop computer, and like 2000 that

00:08:12.390 –> 00:08:25.680
Angela Bergmann: Websites look really cool. I want to learn how to do that. So I taught myself how to build websites I started doing like personal journaling, as it was back then. Like you buy a domain and you create a journal online.

00:08:27.240 –> 00:08:34.590
Angela Bergmann: Got into content management systems as they were coming around. So like gray matter be to movable type

00:08:35.370 –> 00:08:52.410
Angela Bergmann: Got into WordPress got very heavily into using WordPress and like the personal website scene because that was pretty popular with like teenage girls and like early 20s adult girls, creating just personal lifestyle type sites, what we essentially consider it now.

00:08:54.150 –> 00:08:57.630
Angela Bergmann: And I got super into social media because that was a big part of that scene.

00:08:59.070 –> 00:09:08.520
Angela Bergmann: I was, I was working retail like cashier and I was super into social media playing video games doing websites and

00:09:09.810 –> 00:09:25.050
Angela Bergmann: Guy that I followed on Twitter that we had a lot of music in common with like, hey, I see you’re really good at building like WordPress sites. You’re really good at social media. We need an intern at our marketing agency. Would you be interested. And I was like, yeah.

00:09:27.600 –> 00:09:38.070
Angela Bergmann: I interviewed started internship got hired in and they taught me SEO, and PPC and kind of like where to start learning more about it and how to like pick up on it.

00:09:38.520 –> 00:09:49.980
Angela Bergmann: And I just got super into it from there and just kind of took off and I i went back and forth for a while, between like web development and then digital marketing, but

00:09:50.640 –> 00:09:59.070
Angela Bergmann: I always really liked SEO and SEO is where I really love to be and that’s finally where I get to be kind of little time after spending time doing a little bit of everything.

00:10:00.690 –> 00:10:04.230
Jacob Stoops: So what brought you to advance local

00:10:06.330 –> 00:10:11.700
Angela Bergmann: So I wanted the the advanced local because I love doing agency work.

00:10:12.750 –> 00:10:20.640
Angela Bergmann: I know that’s not typical for a lot of SEO is a lot of SEOs that I run into like to be like the in house person doing the super deep dive.

00:10:21.210 –> 00:10:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Looking through logs that kind of stuff. Whereas I really like the fast paced nature of agency work and day to day. I don’t know what vertical I’ll be looking at

00:10:31.890 –> 00:10:42.210
Angela Bergmann: So you know I have clients that run the gamut from, you know, roofers to nonprofit foundations. So it really is everybody. And I love that.

00:10:43.800 –> 00:10:53.640
Jacob Stoops: So one question I have to ask them is, so you said you love agency work, you’re, you’re, I think, a rare, rare breed.

00:10:53.730 –> 00:10:54.750
Angela Bergmann: I also

00:10:55.170 –> 00:11:00.900
Jacob Stoops: Feel like I’m a better fit in agency, a I call an agency world because it’s just this crazy

00:11:02.730 –> 00:11:04.410
Jacob Stoops: Difficult monster of a

00:11:04.650 –> 00:11:05.130
Angela Bergmann: Stress

00:11:05.250 –> 00:11:07.830
Jacob Stoops: stress ball that I seem to thrive.

00:11:07.890 –> 00:11:09.360
Angela Bergmann: In, and I think that there are

00:11:09.360 –> 00:11:10.020
Angela Bergmann: Very few.

00:11:10.950 –> 00:11:15.000
Jacob Stoops: Lot of people working in what I call agency agency world.

00:11:16.050 –> 00:11:19.860
Jacob Stoops: Not everybody’s a good fit for it. Some people are a better fit for

00:11:19.920 –> 00:11:21.210
Angela Bergmann: In house so like

00:11:21.750 –> 00:11:35.460
Jacob Stoops: Aside from just it being fast paced. What I guess intrinsic qualities do you feel like you have that sort of lend you to that versus being on the House side.

00:11:37.410 –> 00:11:50.310
Angela Bergmann: So, and this is one of the things that I really look for when I’m when I’m hiring people for our team is I look for agency SEO, you have to have a desire to know something about everything.

00:11:51.510 –> 00:11:59.670
Angela Bergmann: Not even necessarily super in depth because when you’re on the agency side you’re for a long time, you’re usually a little bit more high level. I feel like

00:12:00.270 –> 00:12:08.760
Angela Bergmann: But you need to have a willingness to be knowledgeable about everything and have that desire to learn about things that have nothing to do with your personal life.

00:12:09.600 –> 00:12:20.220
Angela Bergmann: I know way more about Windows and any girl could ever want to know, but it’s because of my, my client is. And it’s not because I necessarily interested in it, but I consume knowledge.

00:12:20.760 –> 00:12:21.360
Jeff Louella: I know more about

00:12:21.660 –> 00:12:22.680
I think you take

00:12:25.650 –> 00:12:34.440
Angela Bergmann: Like, Oh man, I just, I really needed to know which window would be perfect, which vinyl window would be perfect for my, you know, turn of the century home yeah

00:12:37.080 –> 00:12:37.620
That’s right.

00:12:38.970 –> 00:12:43.500
Angela Bergmann: But you combine that with I think people that work really well on agency.

00:12:46.350 –> 00:12:58.530
Angela Bergmann: Are those people that like to procrastinate because we work better under pressure and agency is constant pressures. So we constantly have that stimulation that we feel like we need to produce our best work.

00:13:00.900 –> 00:13:01.350
Jacob Stoops: There.

00:13:01.650 –> 00:13:02.730
Angela Bergmann: There is

00:13:03.630 –> 00:13:06.540
Jacob Stoops: I do find that there’s more pressure working

00:13:06.600 –> 00:13:09.240
Angela Bergmann: In the agency environment.

00:13:09.300 –> 00:13:16.770
Jacob Stoops: And there’s more. There’s definitely more variability, you’re not working on the same thing every day, you’re not working in the same industry.

00:13:16.770 –> 00:13:18.510
Angela Bergmann: Every day, and

00:13:19.530 –> 00:13:32.940
Jacob Stoops: For me, that’s nice. I could see where for other people. That would be pretty obnoxious and there have been times in my career where I when I have gone to the in house side where that’s what I thought I wanted

00:13:34.350 –> 00:13:46.500
Jacob Stoops: In there are times where, like, I was pretty fulfilled doing that coming to work and working on the, the same thing every day. But something about the the

00:13:47.190 –> 00:14:05.850
Jacob Stoops: competitive nature. I feel like this is not to say that in house SEOs are not great, because there are many, many great in house SEOs but I feel like the amount of pressure to drive impact leads me to be better at my job. And I think that you get more creativity.

00:14:07.080 –> 00:14:17.190
Jacob Stoops: Out of that because people are constantly trying to think ahead trying to work ahead, trying to make sure in that short time time span that you have, which is usually

00:14:17.820 –> 00:14:33.930
Jacob Stoops: Three, six, or 12 months, your contract in which the you’re getting evaluated and people are deciding whether or not to pay you based on your performance. And a lot of times because implementation is really hard. You’re not getting your recommendations implemented until well

00:14:33.960 –> 00:14:35.640
Angela Bergmann: Into that contract. Yeah.

00:14:35.820 –> 00:14:36.150

00:14:38.160 –> 00:14:39.180
Jacob Stoops: Aggressive and that

00:14:39.180 –> 00:14:41.640
Jacob Stoops: Means you have to be. We have to be on the cutting

00:14:41.670 –> 00:14:42.690
Angela Bergmann: Edge and that’s

00:14:43.410 –> 00:14:46.110
Jacob Stoops: That’s where I like to. I like to live. I like to live dangerously

00:14:46.110 –> 00:15:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, yeah, you get some you get some try. I feel like I guess a trial. A lot of fun thing because I have like that handful of clients that wants to be cutting edge. So they’re willing to pay to try the thing

00:15:01.380 –> 00:15:02.310
Jacob Stoops: What is the

00:15:02.670 –> 00:15:09.870
Jacob Stoops: area of expertise that you have, because you’ve worked on a particular client that is the furthest

00:15:09.870 –> 00:15:10.980
Angela Bergmann: Thing from your

00:15:11.160 –> 00:15:14.880
Jacob Stoops: Personality, or maybe the oddest thing for you. Besides windows.

00:15:17.220 –> 00:15:18.030
Angela Bergmann: So,

00:15:20.550 –> 00:15:25.560
Angela Bergmann: Probably um that’s so tough because I

00:15:28.650 –> 00:15:34.740
Angela Bergmann: I’m such a crazy knowledge person. I feel like everything is relevant to me because I want to know things about everything.

00:15:35.280 –> 00:15:46.980
Angela Bergmann: I probably autos, I’m not super into cars. I’m just not. But I’ve come up with some very creative ways to address SEO for automotive clients.

00:15:47.490 –> 00:15:57.570
Angela Bergmann: Because they have those inherent difficulties that come with like the content management and like inventory management system they’re locked into their page speed is always going to be terrible.

00:15:58.020 –> 00:16:09.270
Angela Bergmann: It’s a given they’re going to have technical things that we’re never going to be able to touch and there’s no point even reporting on it because they’re just, there’s no hope there.

00:16:09.870 –> 00:16:18.870
Angela Bergmann: So I have kind of work to figure out, like, what can we do that will make an effect and actually show some organic growth for them. Um,

00:16:20.370 –> 00:16:21.240
Angela Bergmann: Without

00:16:21.570 –> 00:16:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Having to get into the things that we would typically want to touch.

00:16:25.860 –> 00:16:27.000
Angela Bergmann: Jeff, you work on a

00:16:27.330 –> 00:16:29.820
Jacob Stoops: Pretty well known who will not be named here.

00:16:29.880 –> 00:16:31.320
Jacob Stoops: Automotive client.

00:16:31.440 –> 00:16:32.610
What are your thoughts about that.

00:16:33.750 –> 00:16:34.080
Jeff Louella: Well,

00:16:34.200 –> 00:16:37.500
Jeff Louella: That’s automotive parts, so it is what e commerce, but

00:16:37.650 –> 00:16:39.300
Some of those parts are so

00:16:40.500 –> 00:16:41.190
Jeff Louella: Specific

00:16:42.570 –> 00:16:42.930
Jeff Louella: And

00:16:43.380 –> 00:16:43.950
Jeff Louella: It is

00:16:44.190 –> 00:16:47.460
Jeff Louella: There’s a ton of competition out there. Right, so it’s it’s

00:16:47.520 –> 00:16:49.980
Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I’m, I’m always battling

00:16:50.040 –> 00:16:51.480
Angela Bergmann: That aspect of just like

00:16:52.140 –> 00:16:54.690
Jeff Louella: We have an oxygen sensor. It’s like

00:16:54.900 –> 00:16:57.390
Jeff Louella: I get every site has it out there. How do we

00:16:57.420 –> 00:17:00.360
Jeff Louella: Kind of get it out, but they are very

00:17:01.080 –> 00:17:01.410
Angela Bergmann: You know,

00:17:01.470 –> 00:17:03.000
Angela Bergmann: A lot of it is, but I’m

00:17:03.060 –> 00:17:04.500
Jeff Louella: Fighting is like kind of having

00:17:05.070 –> 00:17:15.180
Jeff Louella: Content like trying to build it up to where like your average consumers, looking at it. But the way that the automotive parts world works. It’s like by part numbers, most of the time. Right, so you

00:17:15.210 –> 00:17:15.900
Jeff Louella: Get number

00:17:16.290 –> 00:17:16.800
Jeff Louella: And it’s like,

00:17:16.830 –> 00:17:21.630
Jeff Louella: You’re optimizing for part number and more than someone’s looking for specific

00:17:22.770 –> 00:17:35.910
Jeff Louella: You know, general terms like brake pads or grades for me. He’s not a car person looking. But for someone who’s actually like at an auto shop. They need part, you know, ML or 973 and that comes up first.

00:17:35.940 –> 00:17:38.190
Jeff Louella: Yep. So it’s an interesting

00:17:38.280 –> 00:17:50.220
Jeff Louella: Mix there because every like more people search for Breitbart, then that bottle number, but that model number converts it like 90% while the other one converts at point 1% so it’s

00:17:50.700 –> 00:17:55.530
Angela Bergmann: Exactly. So how are we going to write content to target the actual conversion. Exactly.

00:17:55.890 –> 00:18:01.470
Angela Bergmann: So how do we beat out the other people who use the same exact model number is part of my issues. Yeah, yeah.

00:18:02.280 –> 00:18:05.460
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, I’ve done that, I, I’ve also worked with a lot of like

00:18:06.480 –> 00:18:15.900
Angela Bergmann: Manufacturers where their target audience is knows that they need the part that this place makes but they have no idea what it’s called. They just know that they need it.

00:18:17.310 –> 00:18:18.390
Angela Bergmann: Those are always fun.

00:18:19.470 –> 00:18:23.160
Angela Bergmann: Hoping engineers find engineer good time.

00:18:23.850 –> 00:18:24.270
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:18:25.140 –> 00:18:26.670
Angela Bergmann: I have a like one

00:18:26.700 –> 00:18:31.260
Jeff Louella: Thing that I know way too much about besides wedding dresses that I’ve never do that. I would

00:18:31.260 –> 00:18:31.500
Angela Bergmann: Like

00:18:31.560 –> 00:18:33.150
Jeff Louella: Working in the agency world and it’s

00:18:33.150 –> 00:18:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Like

00:18:33.660 –> 00:18:36.300
Jeff Louella: feeding tubes is one that I like.

00:18:36.570 –> 00:18:38.580
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah. This is especially them into

00:18:38.580 –> 00:18:46.830
Jeff Louella: Now, which is something that I like. I hope no one ever has to learn about but you know now that like there is a major

00:18:47.910 –> 00:18:51.330
Jeff Louella: concern out there when you do need it. So it’s like, how do we know

00:18:52.260 –> 00:18:57.720
Jeff Louella: It’s just weird marketing, things like that, because it’s just like something you expect your doctor. Just to give to you, but

00:18:58.140 –> 00:19:08.820
Jeff Louella: Our brands out there just like you see commercials on prescription TVs, like you get my arthritis medication or get my, you know, I had this where skin disease and you know there’s

00:19:08.850 –> 00:19:11.430
Jeff Louella: Only three drugs out there, but we need to be number one over those

00:19:11.430 –> 00:19:17.700
Jeff Louella: Three and and that’s kind of where I am with in the evening to world right now. It’s kind of interesting.

00:19:17.730 –> 00:19:29.580
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, no. And it’s true like medicals one of those verticals. That’s like personal and professional interest for me so I know way more about medical stuff than any one person probably others.

00:19:31.560 –> 00:19:40.650
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, there’s so many intricacies to it like is your target audience patients, is it caregivers, is it Doctor Is it manufacturers, distributors like

00:19:41.400 –> 00:19:50.730
Angela Bergmann: People don’t think about that side as well. Yeah, yeah. All of the above. So which different types of which different things, are we going to do to address each different audience. Yeah.

00:19:51.000 –> 00:19:52.110
Jeff Louella: All one site that’s already

00:19:52.230 –> 00:19:52.740
Angela Bergmann: It’s like you’re

00:19:52.800 –> 00:19:55.620
Jeff Louella: You’re trying to get to the consumer, but doctors also and

00:19:56.010 –> 00:19:58.260
Angela Bergmann: Mostly the people at hospitals that are ordering

00:19:58.680 –> 00:20:01.620
Jeff Louella: You know, it’s like, those are the people who are actually buying because

00:20:01.740 –> 00:20:02.850
Jeff Louella: As a consumer, you’re not

00:20:02.850 –> 00:20:05.640
Angela Bergmann: Necessarily buying insurance for the most part.

00:20:06.180 –> 00:20:07.380
Jeff Louella: So it’s kind of getting them. Yeah.

00:20:07.410 –> 00:20:08.670
Jeff Louella: Exactly and

00:20:08.940 –> 00:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: And computers at hospitals to you.

00:20:13.170 –> 00:20:23.220
Jacob Stoops: Yep. So I don’t know if you guys know this but Columbus, Ohio is a hub for fashion retailers.

00:20:23.760 –> 00:20:24.810
Angela Bergmann: That you didn’t know

00:20:25.410 –> 00:20:26.970
Angela Bergmann: That going in. Yeah.

00:20:27.060 –> 00:20:28.290
Jacob Stoops: Victoria Secret

00:20:29.130 –> 00:20:29.760
Jacob Stoops: The Lunatic.

00:20:30.510 –> 00:20:31.560
Angela Bergmann: Lane Bryant.

00:20:32.550 –> 00:20:34.740
Angela Bergmann: Abercrombie and Fitch all

00:20:34.920 –> 00:20:43.950
Jacob Stoops: Based in Columbus, Ohio, which is crazy. And the reason I say that is because that is my weird really weird one.

00:20:45.150 –> 00:20:45.660
Jacob Stoops: So this

00:20:45.810 –> 00:20:47.160
Angela Bergmann: Is not recent like

00:20:47.220 –> 00:20:48.810
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know anything about fashion. I

00:20:48.810 –> 00:20:49.350
Jacob Stoops: Really don’t

00:20:50.700 –> 00:20:51.570
Jacob Stoops: I can barely get up.

00:20:51.630 –> 00:20:52.200
Jacob Stoops: Pick up my

00:20:52.230 –> 00:20:52.980
Angela Bergmann: Pick out my clothes.

00:20:53.160 –> 00:20:54.540
Jacob Stoops: In the morning, and usually like

00:20:54.600 –> 00:20:55.770
It’s just t shirt energy

00:20:56.910 –> 00:20:57.540
Jacob Stoops: So,

00:20:58.620 –> 00:21:10.590
Jacob Stoops: I’ve worked on a fashion retailer, not one of those that I named a couple of years ago in more than a couple. It was it was before I had a family. So my my oldest son is six years old.

00:21:11.250 –> 00:21:21.360
Jacob Stoops: So this predates predates him so it was before. I should have known anything about children’s clothing and

00:21:22.530 –> 00:21:28.110
Jacob Stoops: I was, I was working on a fashion site for young girls.

00:21:29.190 –> 00:21:29.640
Jacob Stoops: Which

00:21:29.700 –> 00:21:30.030

00:21:31.230 –> 00:21:32.190
Angela Bergmann: Was so

00:21:32.250 –> 00:21:33.900
Jacob Stoops: Like for me as like

00:21:33.960 –> 00:21:35.340
Jacob Stoops: A young

00:21:35.790 –> 00:21:38.820
Jacob Stoops: Not even married at the time person without

00:21:39.090 –> 00:21:40.860
Jacob Stoops: Kids felt so

00:21:40.860 –> 00:21:42.990
Jacob Stoops: weird and creepy and I like

00:21:43.260 –> 00:21:52.110
Jacob Stoops: As I was working on. I was proud to be working on the brand but also I was like, I’m not going to show anybody my search history because if they saw it without

00:21:52.110 –> 00:21:52.740

00:21:54.300 –> 00:21:56.160
Angela Bergmann: Giant creep so

00:21:57.870 –> 00:21:59.670
Angela Bergmann: That’s my, that’s my weird one and

00:21:59.670 –> 00:22:01.410
Jacob Stoops: It was just, it wasn’t like anything.

00:22:01.440 –> 00:22:02.220
Angela Bergmann: Weird like

00:22:02.940 –> 00:22:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Victoria’s Secret lingerie or anything like that, or anything. It was just normal clothing.

00:22:08.430 –> 00:22:10.320
Jacob Stoops: Except, yes, girls.

00:22:10.380 –> 00:22:10.710
Angela Bergmann: And

00:22:11.070 –> 00:22:13.440
Jacob Stoops: With if somebody had looked at my computer without

00:22:13.440 –> 00:22:13.980
Angela Bergmann: Content.

00:22:14.520 –> 00:22:16.170
Angela Bergmann: And I was visiting that website.

00:22:16.320 –> 00:22:17.100
Jacob Stoops: Every day.

00:22:18.180 –> 00:22:18.420
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:22:18.960 –> 00:22:20.340
I think I would have had some questions.

00:22:25.050 –> 00:22:33.720
Angela Bergmann: People that like any if an SEO ever get arrested. Please don’t look at our search history really thinking about who we are as a person.

00:22:39.540 –> 00:22:41.880
Jacob Stoops: I wasn’t on purpose just looking at that site.

00:22:41.940 –> 00:22:42.600
Jacob Stoops: Every day.

00:22:43.440 –> 00:22:44.280
Angela Bergmann: For yeah

00:22:44.610 –> 00:22:44.970

00:22:47.280 –> 00:22:50.520
Jacob Stoops: So you did mention something when you were kind of talking about how you were

00:22:50.880 –> 00:23:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Coming up in the in the space Twitter. Twitter’s a big thing Twitter still a big thing for for the. So I would say Twitter is probably the best place to connect with other SEOs

00:23:01.830 –> 00:23:03.600
Jacob Stoops: More so than other

00:23:03.990 –> 00:23:16.770
Jacob Stoops: Newer mediums like Instagram or even Tick tock, or whatever. I think Twitter, even I think it’s like Facebook where it’s becoming maybe a little for the, the older generation when used to be the hip.

00:23:17.880 –> 00:23:18.960
Angela Bergmann: It’s, it’s definitely

00:23:20.010 –> 00:23:21.210
Angela Bergmann: Tick tock, but for right

00:23:21.210 –> 00:23:22.620
Jacob Stoops: Now it’s still the best place.

00:23:22.620 –> 00:23:22.950
Angela Bergmann: To

00:23:23.610 –> 00:23:25.710
Jacob Stoops: Communicate with other other SEOs so I do

00:23:25.710 –> 00:23:31.020
Jacob Stoops: find it interesting that you were able to connect and get a job through Twitter.

00:23:32.160 –> 00:23:32.490
Angela Bergmann: That’s pretty

00:23:33.960 –> 00:23:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Awesome. Yep.

00:23:35.670 –> 00:23:38.700
Jacob Stoops: You taught yourself WordPress. What was that like

00:23:41.070 –> 00:23:43.680
Angela Bergmann: No, it really just kind of weird because

00:23:44.850 –> 00:24:02.430
Angela Bergmann: It started with grey matter which was like a CGI based content management system and it just was so much easier than having to FTP into the site every day to like post something and then keeping that running log and and trying to keep all of these separate HTML pages organized

00:24:04.440 –> 00:24:09.870
Angela Bergmann: So it just really kind of morphed into, like, how can I do this easier and then just

00:24:11.340 –> 00:24:21.390
Angela Bergmann: It’s that I think that consumption for knowledge again come into play because it’s like, well, how do I figure this out. Why isn’t this working, what do I have to do to make this work. How do I make it look pretty.

00:24:23.220 –> 00:24:25.020
Angela Bergmann: And it just kind of went from there.

00:24:26.730 –> 00:24:33.000
Angela Bergmann: And because of that, like I got super involved in like the WordPress local WordPress community. I went to WordPress Meetup.

00:24:34.350 –> 00:24:36.300
Angela Bergmann: I hosted a word camp.

00:24:38.220 –> 00:24:51.390
Angela Bergmann: It really like between WordPress and like the digital marketing and social media is really just how I kind of built my career teaching myself these things and getting to be really good at a and

00:24:52.800 –> 00:24:55.350
Angela Bergmann: Being fairly good at sharing that

00:24:56.370 –> 00:25:02.910
Angela Bergmann: Experience and like knowledge with other people to try to explain things to them at a level that they could get it.

00:25:04.200 –> 00:25:11.910
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s how I’ve gotten some of the jobs that I’ve gotten this because I’ve been able to answer questions and explain it in a way that people can understand

00:25:13.020 –> 00:25:14.250
Angela Bergmann: You had spoken.

00:25:14.580 –> 00:25:17.400
Jacob Stoops: At a lot of word camps all across the Midwest.

00:25:17.460 –> 00:25:18.390
Jacob Stoops: Honestly, like we

00:25:18.420 –> 00:25:20.490
Jacob Stoops: We do our diligence before so

00:25:20.520 –> 00:25:23.100
Angela Bergmann: And you’ve spoken several times at

00:25:23.100 –> 00:25:24.270
Jacob Stoops: Each of these are

00:25:24.630 –> 00:25:25.470
Angela Bergmann: Columbus.

00:25:25.500 –> 00:25:28.140
Jacob Stoops: In Canton end date Ann Arbor.

00:25:28.380 –> 00:25:29.520
Jacob Stoops: Michigan. Yeah.

00:25:30.240 –> 00:25:31.230
Angela Bergmann: Baby to

00:25:31.530 –> 00:25:32.520
Jacob Stoops: Buffalo potato.

00:25:32.580 –> 00:25:41.940
Angela Bergmann: I guess I were an OSU had we were always, you have to always take pictures on were on U of M campus like in enemy territory.

00:25:43.740 –> 00:25:44.820
Angela Bergmann: Very important to do

00:25:44.940 –> 00:25:46.440
Jacob Stoops: Um, what

00:25:48.360 –> 00:25:49.410
Angela Bergmann: I think that one.

00:25:49.410 –> 00:25:52.140
Jacob Stoops: Of the questions I would also ask outside of the

00:25:53.250 –> 00:25:59.100
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of questions that come up when you start talking teaching yourself natural

00:25:59.430 –> 00:26:00.330

00:26:02.010 –> 00:26:10.020
Jacob Stoops: And now this is kind of getting into the public speaking realm but like I feel like these are all very important characteristics and we’d like to

00:26:11.010 –> 00:26:19.080
Jacob Stoops: Like to end the episodes, or at least we try sometimes we forget giving advice on like hey if you’re getting into the industry today like

00:26:19.590 –> 00:26:32.790
Jacob Stoops: What characteristics, should you look to follow or try to emulate in in other really great SEOs, and I think that like us. You have have shown and

00:26:33.540 –> 00:26:50.310
Jacob Stoops: I’m saying this because I came up in the same way I was a graphic designer who had no other choice but to teach myself web design, who then fell into SEO WordPress was a huge part of of my experience in in web design, but like

00:26:51.780 –> 00:26:55.530
Jacob Stoops: I think having that natural curiosity and I do see some people that

00:26:55.560 –> 00:26:56.790
Angela Bergmann: Come into the industry and

00:26:56.790 –> 00:26:58.140
Angela Bergmann: Like there’s

00:26:58.680 –> 00:27:05.610
Jacob Stoops: Not always the hunger there to want to dive into some of these complex problems and there’s not always the

00:27:06.960 –> 00:27:11.550
Jacob Stoops: The real desire to teach yourself one of the skills.

00:27:12.930 –> 00:27:13.290
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:27:14.280 –> 00:27:15.570
Jacob Stoops: How important do you feel

00:27:15.570 –> 00:27:19.950
Jacob Stoops: Like that part of it is when you’re kind of coming up.

00:27:21.900 –> 00:27:29.160
Angela Bergmann: I think it’s critical. I think that desire to learn everything and teach yourself everything you possibly can, is

00:27:30.000 –> 00:27:48.960
Angela Bergmann: The foundation of being a really good SEO because things are going to change. Google can make a change, tomorrow that rocks all of our world and we have to learn it right now. So if you’re not able to like pivot quickly and learn things kind of on the fly, you’re already at a doctrine.

00:27:50.310 –> 00:27:50.610
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

00:27:52.080 –> 00:27:57.150
Jeff Louella: No matter what I asked anyone who I’ve ever talked to you, like, what did you go to school for it.

00:27:57.810 –> 00:27:59.100
Jeff Louella: It’s never SEO right

00:27:59.100 –> 00:27:59.730
Angela Bergmann: So it’s

00:28:00.930 –> 00:28:03.270
Jeff Louella: So I’ve worked with people who were

00:28:04.320 –> 00:28:07.950
Jeff Louella: Wanted to be a gym teacher, all the way to people like

00:28:08.370 –> 00:28:10.200
Jeff Louella: Journalism is a big one.

00:28:10.650 –> 00:28:11.160
Jeff Louella: And then

00:28:11.670 –> 00:28:12.450
Angela Bergmann: The big one.

00:28:12.570 –> 00:28:13.860
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and journalism is

00:28:14.490 –> 00:28:17.970
Jeff Louella: Is great. I mean, the technical side is where they need to have the curiosity, but

00:28:18.600 –> 00:28:21.480
Jeff Louella: I’m probably the opposite where it’s like on the content side, I probably need

00:28:21.540 –> 00:28:25.140
Jeff Louella: A little more curiosity on wordplay and things like that because

00:28:26.370 –> 00:28:29.100
Jeff Louella: I’m coming from a technical background but yeah it’s it’s

00:28:29.550 –> 00:28:31.170
Jeff Louella: Having the curiosity in general.

00:28:31.170 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: And learning how to, you know, I always tell someone who’s new like build a WordPress site.

00:28:37.410 –> 00:28:38.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s just one because it’s, yeah.

00:28:38.790 –> 00:28:40.230
Angela Bergmann: There’s so much information out.

00:28:40.230 –> 00:28:45.210
Jeff Louella: There that you can’t, like, if I say build a craft CMS site right now or

00:28:45.240 –> 00:28:47.640
Jeff Louella: Go do with expression engine or go do

00:28:47.850 –> 00:28:49.140
Angela Bergmann: So high

00:28:49.260 –> 00:28:52.650
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we will type or, you know, I

00:28:53.280 –> 00:28:56.520
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those where it’s like there might not be as much out there WordPress, there’s this

00:28:56.610 –> 00:28:58.920
Angela Bergmann: Gigantic community. Yeah, that’s

00:28:59.130 –> 00:28:59.550
Angela Bergmann: And don’t

00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:04.320
Jeff Louella: Just go to WordPress com and pay you know or get a free site there like go

00:29:04.530 –> 00:29:08.700
Angela Bergmann: Now, Donald word download it and

00:29:13.080 –> 00:29:13.710
Angela Bergmann: All which is

00:29:13.800 –> 00:29:16.470
Jeff Louella: Which is fine for me now because I installed it but

00:29:17.010 –> 00:29:23.760
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like I use the One Button installed, but that’s because I installed thousands of patients on it.

00:29:24.810 –> 00:29:25.530
Angela Bergmann: So easy.

00:29:26.250 –> 00:29:28.410
Angela Bergmann: But at the same time, it’s like knowing like

00:29:28.470 –> 00:29:34.410
Jeff Louella: Okay, I got my config file up to what does the config file, it’s like okay, now it’s just like

00:29:34.440 –> 00:29:34.860
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I

00:29:35.100 –> 00:29:36.240
Jeff Louella: Get to my sequel database.

00:29:36.270 –> 00:29:37.680
Jeff Louella: What is that my sequel database.

00:29:37.680 –> 00:29:38.490
Jeff Louella: You know, and it’s just

00:29:39.750 –> 00:29:46.020
Angela Bergmann: That’s the kind of stuff, too, that when you when you’re learning it like so. I work for very large corporation.

00:29:47.370 –> 00:29:57.090
Angela Bergmann: I wanted access administrative level access on my laptop and they’re like why. And I was like, cuz I want to update my host file. And they were like, oh,

00:29:57.660 –> 00:30:09.180
Angela Bergmann: You know what, I’m like, yeah, I know what that is. I need to update it and like just having that knowledge has helped me be able to get access to the things that I need, because I know what it

00:30:10.350 –> 00:30:12.210
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s great. Yeah.

00:30:12.840 –> 00:30:14.490
Jeff Louella: So I have a little confession that I’ve

00:30:14.700 –> 00:30:15.750
Jeff Louella: Signed up for

00:30:15.900 –> 00:30:18.300
Angela Bergmann: Probably the last five years to go to WordPress.

00:30:18.630 –> 00:30:19.350
Jeff Louella: Or work camp.

00:30:19.890 –> 00:30:21.090
Jeff Louella: Paid and I never went

00:30:24.990 –> 00:30:27.330
Jeff Louella: I totally support it. I love the idea of it.

00:30:27.690 –> 00:30:32.040
Jeff Louella: I moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta. About three years ago, but at least

00:30:32.250 –> 00:30:34.230
Jeff Louella: Three years in Philadelphia. I paid and it’s

00:30:34.230 –> 00:30:35.790
Jeff Louella: Always sits on a weekend.

00:30:36.240 –> 00:30:37.200
Angela Bergmann: Which yeah

00:30:37.260 –> 00:30:38.520
Jeff Louella: Usually is good because

00:30:39.240 –> 00:30:41.070
Jeff Louella: I can go on a weekend. Like, it seems great

00:30:41.520 –> 00:30:49.680
Jeff Louella: But that’s usually family time and that’s where it goes. Like if you give me the Tuesday I feel like I’m working late today or it’s a substitute work for the conference.

00:30:50.070 –> 00:30:51.960
Angela Bergmann: But I think I paid for it every year and I

00:30:51.960 –> 00:31:02.700
Jeff Louella: Send in our Atlanta office now that I’m company on that every year. I said word camps coming sign up here and I always pay by my ticket because I support it. And then I usually never get

00:31:02.970 –> 00:31:04.290
Jeff Louella: Go, so I am

00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:05.610
Jeff Louella: Oh, you have

00:31:05.610 –> 00:31:06.090
Angela Bergmann: To go

00:31:06.120 –> 00:31:06.630
Angela Bergmann: I need

00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:07.200
Jeff Louella: I will go

00:31:09.120 –> 00:31:18.780
Angela Bergmann: I tell people all the time. I’m like, honestly, especially from the tech like SEO side like we’re cancer amazing i I’ve met some of the best people I know through that.

00:31:19.980 –> 00:31:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Actually when I was interviewing for this job. I was interviewing with john parka who’s the director of SEO still he’s on actually on our, on our enterprise side now.

00:31:31.140 –> 00:31:33.810
Angela Bergmann: But he helped start one of the word camps in Florida.

00:31:34.290 –> 00:31:45.120
Angela Bergmann: And he saw on my resume that I was on the committee for word camp North Canton, and then I was the chair for word camp Kent and word camp Northeast Ohio and then I spoke at all these word camp.

00:31:45.450 –> 00:31:50.160
Angela Bergmann: So that was like part of my interview process was talking about what I do work camp.

00:31:51.120 –> 00:31:59.250
Angela Bergmann: But like, I’ve met some of my best friends at this point through the word WordPress community. And that’s why, like I go to their camps and I talked and

00:31:59.700 –> 00:32:10.500
Angela Bergmann: I just made some wonderful connections. That’s great. I just looked it out, April 18 and 19th word camp Atlanta. I will be there. Mm hmm. And I know one of their organizers.

00:32:14.910 –> 00:32:25.110
Angela Bergmann: Yes, they’re always looking for speakers, they always especially on. I mean, just saying. Like I always talk nowadays about SEO or accessibility at them and

00:32:26.490 –> 00:32:32.340
Angela Bergmann: They’re highly attended people have wonderful question. They’re super engaged. I love it. That’s awesome.

00:32:33.780 –> 00:32:36.690
Jacob Stoops: Just how dare you prioritize your family.

00:32:37.260 –> 00:32:38.400
Angela Bergmann: Over WordPress and

00:32:40.110 –> 00:32:42.060
Jeff Louella: Ryan times I’ve just hung over from Friday.

00:32:42.060 –> 00:32:42.600
Jeff Louella: Night now.

00:32:48.300 –> 00:32:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Angela, what do you do it word camp.

00:32:52.200 –> 00:32:54.330
Angela Bergmann: So what do I do a word chill. Yeah.

00:32:55.140 –> 00:32:57.660
Jacob Stoops: You said that you said that just two seconds ago.

00:32:57.750 –> 00:33:00.030
Jacob Stoops: And I was like I was just gonna say, Well, what do you do

00:33:00.780 –> 00:33:12.960
Angela Bergmann: So now I said so now i don’t i just attend. Now, or I speak of them. Previously I was actually on the committee that actually helped around them, because they are nonprofit.

00:33:13.560 –> 00:33:18.480
Angela Bergmann: That’s how the tickets are so cheap everybody donate their time to help run the camp.

00:33:19.380 –> 00:33:34.350
Angela Bergmann: And you know, I started out just doing social media for it. So I was the one posting on social media, creating the website. And then I was the one. And I think the whole thing and getting sponsors and running it day of

00:33:36.540 –> 00:33:43.980
Angela Bergmann: Compared to some conferences word camps are super laid back jeans and a t shirt hang out with your friends.

00:33:44.550 –> 00:33:57.780
Angela Bergmann: If you’re in one of the sessions and it’s not really vibe in with you. You’re welcome to like get up and leave like it. It’s just a really like friendly open atmosphere. So it’s not it’s not too high pressure

00:33:59.100 –> 00:34:09.180
Angela Bergmann: But now. Uh, yeah, I just speak at the Now typically about SEO typically beginners level SEO so small businesses people that are just getting into marketing.

00:34:10.080 –> 00:34:23.820
Angela Bergmann: New College graduate, that kind of stuff. Just like you don’t don’t listen to the snake oil salesman that are going to be like, we’ll get you on number one. Don’t buy a link. Here’s the basic things you can do.

00:34:25.350 –> 00:34:30.300
Angela Bergmann: In the run up to getting an agency to help you. You just install used

00:34:32.370 –> 00:34:42.510
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like that’s one of the things that I actually go over as I’m like yeah install Yost ignore the green light. Um, you know, just write good content answer people’s questions.

00:34:44.460 –> 00:34:48.180
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s really what you need to do the plugins, not just going to

00:34:48.180 –> 00:34:49.650
Jacob Stoops: Magically, do the SEO.

00:34:49.980 –> 00:34:51.810
Angela Bergmann: Despite what some people think, yeah.

00:34:52.260 –> 00:34:54.150
Jacob Stoops: That’s exactly, exactly.

00:34:54.240 –> 00:34:57.600
Angela Bergmann: autopilot which is a and worms.

00:34:59.850 –> 00:35:01.350
Angela Bergmann: The public speaking angle.

00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:06.930
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of folks in our industry are either a doing it.

00:35:07.080 –> 00:35:07.800
Jacob Stoops: Or be

00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:20.250
Jacob Stoops: Thinking about doing it. What advice for those people who are thinking about doing it because you have done it so much. Would you give and kind of what types of things did you go through

00:35:22.230 –> 00:35:25.110
Jacob Stoops: before you got into it, or as you were early on in it.

00:35:27.360 –> 00:35:41.670
Angela Bergmann: So the number one thing I learned I actually learned from my husband. Um, he got finally got it through my head that just because something seems really easy for me doesn’t mean everybody else knows how to do it.

00:35:43.470 –> 00:35:54.360
Angela Bergmann: Because I’ve been doing this for so long. I don’t realize the level of things that I know and what seems really like basic common knowledge to me isn’t so common.

00:35:56.280 –> 00:36:08.250
Angela Bergmann: So even if it seems like something simple, there’s somebody out there that needs to know about it and wants to learn about it. And if it’s something you feel really confident about and you know a lot about pitch to talk about it.

00:36:10.200 –> 00:36:11.490
Angela Bergmann: Especially if you’re a woman.

00:36:14.340 –> 00:36:17.490
Jeff Louella: As an issue where it’s I feel that there’s so many

00:36:17.640 –> 00:36:18.750
Angela Bergmann: SEO conferences.

00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:21.060
Jeff Louella: Is somebody SEO blogs from the

00:36:21.060 –> 00:36:31.740
Jeff Louella: Sky News things that it’s I do have that issue where it’s like, oh, I talked about this, but like there’s a million people talking about it right now. And it’s like, what is is looking at what that

00:36:31.740 –> 00:36:33.000
Jeff Louella: Next Big Thing is out there.

00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:34.260
Jeff Louella: But in a way,

00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:36.690
Jeff Louella: The basics are still not like

00:36:36.990 –> 00:36:39.600
Jeff Louella: I’ve learned this my clients like some my basic like

00:36:40.080 –> 00:36:42.540
Jeff Louella: The basics are not being followed and

00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:44.940
Jeff Louella: You know, and internal education with

00:36:45.240 –> 00:36:46.770
Jeff Louella: My, my clients is where I

00:36:47.130 –> 00:36:48.270
Angela Bergmann: Love the focus on that.

00:36:49.140 –> 00:36:57.270
Jeff Louella: Though I sometimes feel like I’ve been doing this for a long time. I should be like teaching them all about like how to use machine learning to do better SEO.

00:36:57.990 –> 00:37:00.270
Jeff Louella: Not teaching you that like listen that right over.

00:37:00.270 –> 00:37:07.950
Jeff Louella: 65 characters on the title or or let’s add a title to our page because you know we forgot to do that, but it’s it’s

00:37:08.010 –> 00:37:20.850
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s the people forget like everybody still needs a reminder on the basics and like how the how the why the basics are still relevant. They feel like it’s a big thing. Yeah, anyway.

00:37:22.140 –> 00:37:27.510
Jeff Louella: This is a little bit basics and a little bit above right there is like that’s 90% of what we need to know and everything else is

00:37:27.510 –> 00:37:28.740
Angela Bergmann: sugar on top of it. So,

00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:30.060
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s

00:37:30.780 –> 00:37:33.810
Jacob Stoops: It’s a pretty rare situation. I’ve been an agency.

00:37:33.810 –> 00:37:50.280
Jacob Stoops: World for 90% of my career and there I can count probably on one hand, the amount of clients where their SEO strategy was so well developed that we only ever focused on really advanced stuff.

00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.890
Angela Bergmann: For the most part, when people

00:37:53.040 –> 00:37:58.980
Jacob Stoops: Have come to us. They’ve got like very basic, very fundamental problems very

00:37:59.340 –> 00:38:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Fundamental technical problems.

00:38:01.110 –> 00:38:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Or because they haven’t really ever thought of SEO or

00:38:04.650 –> 00:38:06.180
Jacob Stoops: Done keyword research, they don’t

00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:22.230
Jacob Stoops: Understand what their consumers are searching for where they should be showing up. So they had a lot of content gaps and we spend a lot of time in because SEO takes a long time because it takes a long time for implementation to occur. A lot of in most cases.

00:38:23.310 –> 00:38:25.890
Jacob Stoops: It can take years to get some of the

00:38:26.490 –> 00:38:27.210
Angela Bergmann: Stuff right

00:38:27.270 –> 00:38:35.310
Jacob Stoops: In finally in place, but the the weird juxtaposition in agency world is you don’t have years. So sometimes you’re

00:38:35.400 –> 00:38:37.800
Jacob Stoops: You’re really stuck between a rock and

00:38:38.280 –> 00:38:43.260
Jacob Stoops: A hard place. But yeah, I mean, most people come to us with basic, basic

00:38:44.520 –> 00:38:46.650
Jacob Stoops: basic needs, and we we

00:38:47.670 –> 00:38:57.090
Jacob Stoops: Are having to serve those needs, but then the flip side is on the public speaking in the conference side like I think sometimes I fall into the

00:38:58.290 –> 00:39:00.960
Jacob Stoops: The way of thinking like Jeff where it’s like

00:39:02.400 –> 00:39:17.850
Jacob Stoops: Everybody like nobody everybody I assume everybody who would be attending an SEO or WordPress conference would already know the basics. So like I i don’t pitch more because I’m like, well, what can I tell these people that they don’t already know.

00:39:18.150 –> 00:39:19.410
Jacob Stoops: And sometimes that’s the wrong way to

00:39:19.410 –> 00:39:20.460
Angela Bergmann: Think about it for sure.

00:39:20.910 –> 00:39:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I totally realized that’s the probably the the wrong.

00:39:24.210 –> 00:39:25.530
Angela Bergmann: Approach to take because

00:39:25.560 –> 00:39:33.930
Jacob Stoops: For every person in there that does know some of the basic stuff. There’s probably a new person in there that’s never heard any of it before so

00:39:34.470 –> 00:39:44.520
Angela Bergmann: Yeah. And you’ll notice that like even the SEO conferences, they’ll have a talk here and there. That’s like basically rehashing the basics and how and why it’s still relevant to today.

00:39:45.300 –> 00:39:46.800
Jacob Stoops: Did you ever have any like

00:39:46.800 –> 00:39:51.120
Jacob Stoops: Fears of getting up on stage and talking in front of a lot of people

00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:16.380
Angela Bergmann: Like I get. I get that nervousness of, like, what if I can’t answer. Somebody question. Um, but I am super outgoing and kinda like in your face. One of those types of people. So like getting up in front of a group was never a fear for me. You’re, you’re one of the lucky ones like

00:40:18.360 –> 00:40:18.930
Jacob Stoops: I have

00:40:19.350 –> 00:40:20.580
Jacob Stoops: A bit of a public

00:40:20.580 –> 00:40:39.330
Jacob Stoops: Speaking fear which I usually quickly get over but like I have a weird thing that happens to me when I, when I talk in public in most predominantly so I’ve, I don’t want to call myself a singer, but I’ve saying in public. Several times for like benefits and whatnot and

00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:41.670
Jacob Stoops: I have this thing, right.

00:40:41.670 –> 00:40:45.510
Jacob Stoops: Before I’m about to go on stage and

00:40:46.260 –> 00:40:47.250
Angela Bergmann: A couple of times.

00:40:47.280 –> 00:40:49.800
Jacob Stoops: Literally seconds before the words are supposed to come out of my

00:40:49.800 –> 00:40:50.970
Angela Bergmann: Mouth where

00:40:51.030 –> 00:40:52.290
Angela Bergmann: everything just goes blank.

00:40:52.380 –> 00:40:55.500
Jacob Stoops: And I forget all the words and literally

00:40:55.800 –> 00:40:57.180
Angela Bergmann: The words to me.

00:40:57.240 –> 00:40:59.070
Jacob Stoops: Until the second my mouth opens

00:40:59.250 –> 00:41:05.910
Jacob Stoops: And like you have no idea the amount of anxiety and stress and fear that that causes could

00:41:06.240 –> 00:41:08.190
Jacob Stoops: Could you imagine like being

00:41:08.220 –> 00:41:09.090
Angela Bergmann: Like the

00:41:09.150 –> 00:41:10.890
Jacob Stoops: Music is not stopping

00:41:12.180 –> 00:41:12.630
Jacob Stoops: You’re

00:41:12.660 –> 00:41:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Missing your cue because you forgot the what that’s like. That’s a real thing and like there have been times I feel like where I’ve been.

00:41:19.830 –> 00:41:21.000
Angela Bergmann: Getting in front of people.

00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:24.810
Jacob Stoops: That happens to me and and the light bulb just goes out.

00:41:25.170 –> 00:41:25.680

00:41:26.790 –> 00:41:30.690
Jacob Stoops: There’s a, there’s a certain amount of silence, where, like, it’s okay. But then like

00:41:30.900 –> 00:41:31.980
Angela Bergmann: As you’re trying to get

00:41:32.880 –> 00:41:34.920
Jacob Stoops: Your head and nobody knows that this is happening.

00:41:34.920 –> 00:41:36.300
Jacob Stoops: There’s a certain amount of silence.

00:41:36.300 –> 00:41:37.500
Angela Bergmann: That just awkward.

00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:50.190
Jacob Stoops: And like the lock on the more awkward. It gets and you’re inside like instead of thinking, what was I supposed to be singing. What was I supposed to be saying you’re thinking now, all these people are seeing me freak out.

00:41:50.820 –> 00:41:51.750
Say something.

00:41:54.690 –> 00:41:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Doing what it should be doing so.

00:41:56.100 –> 00:42:00.690
Jacob Stoops: Like, that’s my personal public public speaking fear.

00:42:01.110 –> 00:42:01.620
Angela Bergmann: Oh,

00:42:01.860 –> 00:42:02.790
Jacob Stoops: That’s a very real.

00:42:02.880 –> 00:42:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Thing I know other people have that

00:42:06.780 –> 00:42:19.290
Angela Bergmann: Here’s, here’s how I have that not happen and this always boggles people’s mind so you can go to like wordpress.tv and you can see like some of the recorded where Tim says Boca um

00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:36.480
Angela Bergmann: I knew a lot of people like put together presentations and they have like cards and they like no exact. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I get up there. Wow. I just have a deck. That’s like cuse me to talk about things and I just go

00:42:38.190 –> 00:42:38.820
Angela Bergmann: Oh, man.

00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:40.350
Jacob Stoops: You’re like a Jasmine.

00:42:43.590 –> 00:42:44.250
Every time

00:42:45.690 –> 00:42:51.390
Angela Bergmann: Because like I like to read the especially when I’m at work camps, because there. I know that a lot of these people are very new.

00:42:51.870 –> 00:43:05.070
Angela Bergmann: I can kind of read the room and see what kind of questions. I’m getting asked throughout the presentation and it might shift, what I’m going to say to it’s always slightly different but I always kind of end up with the same takeaways.

00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:10.320
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, I just get up there and talk. Remember, smooth again gigantic

00:43:10.470 –> 00:43:11.880
Jeff Louella: You know 500 person.

00:43:12.300 –> 00:43:12.720
Angela Bergmann: But

00:43:13.500 –> 00:43:18.630
Jeff Louella: I’ve done tons of smaller meetups like 3040 people in there.

00:43:18.630 –> 00:43:19.170

00:43:20.220 –> 00:43:25.830
Jeff Louella: Get I definitely like to feel out the room. I know kind of where I’m going with everything. But one question.

00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:27.000
Angela Bergmann: If I had a script.

00:43:27.060 –> 00:43:29.250
Jeff Louella: That I was going off of the one question through that script.

00:43:29.250 –> 00:43:32.820
Jeff Louella: Off, then I’d be like trying to rewind like Where was I add

00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.610
Angela Bergmann: I would think.

00:43:35.850 –> 00:43:37.140
Jeff Louella: I have been told, you know,

00:43:37.170 –> 00:43:40.770
Jeff Louella: We used to have like presentation training at different companies and

00:43:41.400 –> 00:43:43.200
Jeff Louella: Like they’re like stand in front of a mirror and

00:43:43.200 –> 00:43:44.730
Jeff Louella: Practice what you’re going to say.

00:43:45.210 –> 00:43:47.610
Jeff Louella: And I get it, if I’m doing a

00:43:47.610 –> 00:43:49.110
Angela Bergmann: keynote speech media or

00:43:49.110 –> 00:43:50.100
Jeff Louella: If I’m doing like

00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:52.680
Jeff Louella: Something. Yeah, I’d like to be very

00:43:54.090 –> 00:43:59.010
Jeff Louella: You know, given take with the audience, right. So it’s, again, I have my slides. We know we got an hour.

00:44:00.510 –> 00:44:03.600
Jeff Louella: There’s been many times where I’m on slide 16 we have 10 minutes left.

00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:04.560
Angela Bergmann: Right, and so it’s like

00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:06.870
Jeff Louella: Well, these things work. But if the audience gets what they want.

00:44:06.870 –> 00:44:17.850
Jeff Louella: Out of it like I I’m not there to make like my final slides, not like a mic drop. It’s like at that time. It’s like my my job would be like if you want more information you can talk. Let’s talk right here.

00:44:18.180 –> 00:44:19.440
Angela Bergmann: Compared to be after

00:44:23.550 –> 00:44:41.400
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in I’ve been in the situations because I do a lot of advocacy for nonprofit outside of just work where like those presentations have to be more structured, but even those I leave that wiggle room because I think that’s how it helps me get over that fear.

00:44:43.170 –> 00:44:44.580
Jacob Stoops: If you guys ever seen the movie old

00:44:44.580 –> 00:44:45.030

00:44:46.380 –> 00:44:46.950
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

00:44:47.130 –> 00:44:51.090
Angela Bergmann: No, you have Jeff and I have a question for you, Angela, but

00:44:52.470 –> 00:44:53.760
Angela Bergmann: I guess I should have phrased it the other

00:44:54.120 –> 00:44:54.990
Angela Bergmann: Way. Anyway, so

00:44:55.620 –> 00:44:56.310
Jacob Stoops: For those of you

00:44:56.790 –> 00:45:11.370
Jacob Stoops: Folks, they haven’t seen the movie. First off, it’s funny movie so you should go see it it’s it’s old older it’s from my generation, I guess. But I guess, which makes it a little old um there’s a scene in the movie.

00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:13.500
Jacob Stoops: Where Will Ferrell’s character.

00:45:13.950 –> 00:45:23.010
Jacob Stoops: Goes up for like a debate and they’re essentially debating as part of this competition to keep the charter for their fraternity.

00:45:23.970 –> 00:45:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Loose loose fraternity going so that they can keep their debauchery of a fraternity open and so they’re having this debate and it’s it’s this this massive thing with a moderator.

00:45:37.350 –> 00:45:46.530
Jacob Stoops: And the school president who does not want this fraternity to exist, kind of tries to rig it and he brings in famed political commentator James Carville

00:45:47.490 –> 00:45:54.570
Jacob Stoops: And then they asked this really, really hard question and James Carville is about to answer and Will Ferrell goes Excuse me.

00:45:54.990 –> 00:46:06.240
Jacob Stoops: I think I could take that one. James Carville is like have added hos and Will Ferrell its character proceeds to perfectly and succinctly answer the question.

00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:17.190
Jacob Stoops: And then immediately after everybody’s patting him on the back, and he just kind of like wakes up and goes anybody’s like what the, what the heck just happened I blacked out

00:46:18.660 –> 00:46:22.200
Jacob Stoops: And for me, when I’m public speaking. Sometimes

00:46:22.200 –> 00:46:22.950
Angela Bergmann: And or

00:46:23.010 –> 00:46:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Sometimes when I’m like

00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:32.460
Jacob Stoops: When I have material that I know and I’m very, very comfortable with. I feel like there have been times for me where that kind of happens

00:46:33.150 –> 00:46:33.510
Jacob Stoops: Where I’m

00:46:34.080 –> 00:46:35.280
Jacob Stoops: going with the flow.

00:46:35.340 –> 00:46:44.820
Jacob Stoops: And it’s almost like you can do it on autopilot. And I, it makes me sometimes, when that has happened to me think of that scene in that movie.

00:46:45.960 –> 00:46:59.580
Jacob Stoops: And in that’s in. That’s the version of me that is over my over my stress about public speaking and very comfortable with doing it and very much. Josh, I think with the with the audience. And I would say like

00:47:00.960 –> 00:47:15.150
Jacob Stoops: I’ve, I feel like I i personally come a long way, but for me it’s even still awkward because there is there is that element of it. So there are people that are just so not comfortable with it and I’m definitely one of those

00:47:15.570 –> 00:47:17.220
Jacob Stoops: People even still, even

00:47:17.250 –> 00:47:18.930
Angela Bergmann: My deep into my career.

00:47:20.490 –> 00:47:23.400
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, Jeff. What’s in the news.

00:47:25.020 –> 00:47:31.380
Jeff Louella: So the biggest news this week was Wall Street Journal released an article out that

00:47:32.580 –> 00:47:37.020
Jeff Louella: was titled How Google interferes with its search algorithms and changes your results.

00:47:37.770 –> 00:47:40.170
Angela Bergmann: And as a typical

00:47:40.170 –> 00:47:42.660
Jeff Louella: Fashion SEOs went nuts.

00:47:44.310 –> 00:47:55.590
Jeff Louella: And I would say semi right so um I guess like Wall Street Journal, you know, not necessarily necessarily known as like degree to source for SEO material.

00:47:56.850 –> 00:47:57.510
Jeff Louella: But they sent a

00:47:57.840 –> 00:48:03.630
Jeff Louella: Material. Yeah, that’s where I go first. You know, for my SEO stuff, but I always get their paywall block.

00:48:03.930 –> 00:48:06.360
Jeff Louella: So I will admit that I read.

00:48:07.380 –> 00:48:08.190
Jeff Louella: one paragraph.

00:48:08.280 –> 00:48:08.910
Jeff Louella: And then

00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:10.650
Jeff Louella: Boots because I did not pay for the

00:48:10.650 –> 00:48:11.280
Angela Bergmann: Wall Street Journal

00:48:11.730 –> 00:48:13.440
Jeff Louella: And I really think if

00:48:13.680 –> 00:48:15.600
Angela Bergmann: SEOs didn’t go crazy that article.

00:48:15.630 –> 00:48:17.100
Angela Bergmann: Know what even read it but

00:48:18.480 –> 00:48:20.430
Jeff Louella: Except, like, you know, businessman.

00:48:22.050 –> 00:48:27.450
Jeff Louella: But in general, you know, it’s like one of the big things that they interviewed over 100 different people for this. They said,

00:48:27.840 –> 00:48:37.050
Jeff Louella: And it’s interesting because I guess all who you interview and the way I look at it and how they probably got their information right it’s like I interviewed 100 SEOs okay I can

00:48:37.800 –> 00:48:45.660
Jeff Louella: I can interview a whole bunch of really great SEOs and then there’s all these link builders and spammers I can interview also. So, of course, and they conspiracy

00:48:45.660 –> 00:48:47.580
Angela Bergmann: Theories right so if

00:48:47.760 –> 00:48:49.440
Jeff Louella: I’m reading some of these, and I’m going

00:48:49.650 –> 00:48:51.060
Jeff Louella: Okay, that’s a conspiracy theory.

00:48:51.060 –> 00:48:52.590
Angela Bergmann: But the Wall Street Journal didn’t really do their

00:48:52.590 –> 00:48:53.490

00:48:55.590 –> 00:48:57.240
Angela Bergmann: Actually access to that if they did.

00:48:57.300 –> 00:48:59.250
Jeff Louella: Like I know Glenn gave was misquoted on

00:48:59.250 –> 00:48:59.760
Jeff Louella: His

00:49:00.690 –> 00:49:02.640
Jeff Louella: But some of the things they were kind of saying is

00:49:03.330 –> 00:49:07.740
Jeff Louella: You know, Google makes algorithm changes the benefit and favorite big business.

00:49:08.730 –> 00:49:15.750
Jeff Louella: So that’s something people have been saying for a long time and but if you kind of understand algorithms, you look at it and saying like

00:49:16.590 –> 00:49:27.360
Jeff Louella: Do I want to order something from Amazon com or do I want to order something from the smallest like one guy who had one website, who has one product and gets

00:49:27.780 –> 00:49:28.920
Angela Bergmann: Totally trustworthy.

00:49:29.010 –> 00:49:29.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s totally

00:49:29.490 –> 00:49:31.740
Jeff Louella: Right, so there is a trust factor to this.

00:49:32.370 –> 00:49:34.470
Angela Bergmann: To me it wasn’t news, but I guess there’s some people

00:49:35.610 –> 00:49:39.930
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, there’s a trust factor and SEO. Yeah.

00:49:40.500 –> 00:49:44.460
Angela Bergmann: It’s part of the Shakespeare return eat what the

00:49:45.420 –> 00:49:47.940
Jeff Louella: Yeah. And if you read any of the guidelines, it seems

00:49:47.940 –> 00:49:50.460
Jeff Louella: Like, that’s part of it, right, then go for people who

00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:55.080
Angela Bergmann: Have like expertise and authority and trust so

00:49:56.520 –> 00:49:58.050
Jeff Louella: Another I guess was you

00:49:58.770 –> 00:50:01.590
Jacob Stoops: Know, we’re not moving past this yet, Jeff.

00:50:07.380 –> 00:50:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Seinfeld.

00:50:10.230 –> 00:50:15.750
Jacob Stoops: So Wall Street Journal. So they were they wrote an article about SEO. Okay.

00:50:16.980 –> 00:50:20.550
Jacob Stoops: They’re not an authority on SEO. So like on one side.

00:50:21.570 –> 00:50:31.200
Jacob Stoops: I’m thinking as a person who would have been interviewed well damn it would have been really cool to be approached by the Wall Street Journal to like

00:50:31.590 –> 00:50:32.040
Angela Bergmann: Have

00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:47.550
Jacob Stoops: What my thoughts but like the the cynic in me in in the person in me, who pays attention to things outside of the scope of SEO would think, well,

00:50:48.150 –> 00:50:59.550
Jacob Stoops: The Wall Street Journal is a media outlet and the reporter is probably being given a directive by their superiors and their leadership within the company.

00:51:00.030 –> 00:51:13.950
Jacob Stoops: That whatever they report it has to take a certain slant. So when things came out as being misquoted and being just probably factually wrong like

00:51:15.150 –> 00:51:20.820
Jacob Stoops: Given the environment today and I don’t want to, like, I want to bring in politics, but

00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:23.100
Angela Bergmann: Given the political environment that we

00:51:23.130 –> 00:51:24.420
Jacob Stoops: All live in today.

00:51:24.720 –> 00:51:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Where media outlets are slanted in one way or another with

00:51:29.640 –> 00:51:30.510
Angela Bergmann: Agendas

00:51:30.960 –> 00:51:40.020
Jacob Stoops: Should it have surprised. Anybody who was interviewed that they were misquoted and that this reporter found a way to push their agenda.

00:51:41.310 –> 00:51:51.840
Jacob Stoops: Pretty much, despite the evidence given by the people who were being quoted like. Does that surprise you guys that they took those quotes and slanted them the way that they wanted

00:51:53.850 –> 00:52:03.900
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know. So I’ve been. I’ve been interviewed for a couple of different media publications. I’ve been in USA Today. And I’ve been in Slate both

00:52:04.980 –> 00:52:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Her infertility related things and they both stories they they were really accurate for how they quoted me so I would probably be surprised, personally.

00:52:16.680 –> 00:52:25.560
Angela Bergmann: I think it would have more to do with finding out. So when I’m typically approached for something like that I typically want to know, like what’s the slant like what’s the endgame here.

00:52:26.040 –> 00:52:35.550
Angela Bergmann: Like what are, what is this what is the purpose because there is a purpose for the article. It’s being ready to find out what that is and see if it’s going to be in line with what you’re going to say.

00:52:37.440 –> 00:52:41.280
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we don’t want to have all this effort and time they say

00:52:42.330 –> 00:52:46.680
Jeff Louella: Oh, Google’s just, you know, not doing bad things, right, like the whole idea is you want to

00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:48.990
Jeff Louella: kind of try to expose them on it and

00:52:49.950 –> 00:53:01.530
Jeff Louella: It is I, I would be shocked a little bit right because out of all the news out there like if I was on Gawker, or Buzzfeed. Like, I expect them to maybe get things wrong. I don’t know why. Maybe, yeah.

00:53:01.590 –> 00:53:02.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s less

00:53:02.490 –> 00:53:03.690
Jeff Louella: But the Wall Street Journal

00:53:04.290 –> 00:53:19.920
Jeff Louella: Like there is this integrity with like big things right and there was a time where the, I think the New York Times explodes JC Penney for doing black hat SEO and I was kind of actually shocked that it’s New York Times exposing them doing it. I can’t like

00:53:20.040 –> 00:53:21.180
Jeff Louella: Oh, Wall Street Journal

00:53:22.110 –> 00:53:32.400
Jeff Louella: Same to me. Same level, not knowing. Like I don’t read it. I’m actually but in my head, same level of professionalism, we get things right and misquoting like if it was a little misquote great but

00:53:32.940 –> 00:53:41.250
Jeff Louella: Are not great but you know an understandable, but I mean, as I think when Gabe said like he was not even a he was off the record. He was not even

00:53:41.760 –> 00:53:50.760
Jeff Louella: Mentioned in the article, and then they mentioned them with a, you know, with our misquote or me up because he said he’d never said that. So to me that’s not misquoting that’s just making up a quote

00:53:51.420 –> 00:54:07.980
Jeff Louella: And it looks at that going like, oh, that’s not great. And then just the topics that were in there. I think are easily understandable by most easily understandable, but most SEOs won’t say it’s black magic and that people were back there, controlling it like

00:54:08.430 –> 00:54:10.470
Jeff Louella: Of course they have people looking at results and

00:54:10.500 –> 00:54:18.780
Jeff Louella: Altering algorithms based on that because they want to make sure, like we are getting what we want and as a as a customer or

00:54:18.810 –> 00:54:20.220
Angela Bergmann: You know, my wife who doesn’t get SEO.

00:54:20.640 –> 00:54:22.500
Jeff Louella: she’s getting what she wants. When she typed it in

00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:23.970
Jeff Louella: Like you have to

00:54:24.000 –> 00:54:24.990
Angela Bergmann: Look at the results.

00:54:25.020 –> 00:54:26.670
Angela Bergmann: And then all term with what

00:54:26.790 –> 00:54:28.290
Jeff Louella: What is great and it’s like again.

00:54:28.680 –> 00:54:30.300
Jeff Louella: We have 17

00:54:30.840 –> 00:54:34.590
Jeff Louella: Sites that didn’t make sense to me or one that okay it’s Wikipedia.

00:54:35.100 –> 00:54:37.920
Jeff Louella: Into the biggest site out there for information like of course they’re

00:54:37.920 –> 00:54:38.700
Jeff Louella: Gonna be up there all the time.

00:54:40.230 –> 00:54:44.190
Angela Bergmann: That’s the thing that like boggles my mind will articles like this where it’s like

00:54:44.790 –> 00:54:57.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, Google, the business, obviously they’re in it. They’re making money at the end of the day, though they only make money if they give people what they’re looking for. So that’s still their end goal their end goal still to give the consumer what they want.

00:54:58.860 –> 00:54:59.130
Angela Bergmann: And

00:55:00.600 –> 00:55:00.930
Angela Bergmann: It’s

00:55:00.960 –> 00:55:01.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s funny, like

00:55:03.210 –> 00:55:06.600
Jacob Stoops: Google is the reason I have a job, but then

00:55:06.720 –> 00:55:08.400
Angela Bergmann: There are a lot of times where I think

00:55:08.400 –> 00:55:09.840
Angela Bergmann: Google is

00:55:09.960 –> 00:55:12.090
Jacob Stoops: Evil sometimes. Yeah.

00:55:13.200 –> 00:55:14.790
Thank you a lot of things.

00:55:17.520 –> 00:55:18.840
Jacob Stoops: They say for users.

00:55:18.960 –> 00:55:25.350
Jacob Stoops: But really like a lot of stuff is to enrich the folks within the company and to affect

00:55:25.440 –> 00:55:25.980
Angela Bergmann: Oh, yeah.

00:55:26.790 –> 00:55:32.160
Angela Bergmann: And their shareholders and things, things of that nature. I actually don’t believe that this

00:55:32.160 –> 00:55:47.430
Jacob Stoops: Story is one of those things that I think it’s supposed to indict Google and I think maybe the average person who doesn’t do what we do will read it and think, what the hell’s going on at Google and will think that they’re the evil empire.

00:55:47.460 –> 00:55:50.760
Angela Bergmann: I think for the folks. Yeah, interviewed and for the folks

00:55:50.760 –> 00:55:59.340
Jacob Stoops: Inside the industry like I don’t take this article so seriously because I think that the way it’s being slanted is just

00:56:00.810 –> 00:56:04.650
Jacob Stoops: If stating things that aren’t a problem like they are a problem.

00:56:05.310 –> 00:56:06.570
Jacob Stoops: And I think the other side of

00:56:06.570 –> 00:56:07.740
Jacob Stoops: This is if I were one of the

00:56:07.740 –> 00:56:09.000
Jacob Stoops: People that got interviewed

00:56:10.080 –> 00:56:24.480
Jacob Stoops: I think what I was trying to say earlier is like, I don’t. I think they were being naive to think that a publication like this in in Jeff when that JC Penney thing happened. I feel like that’s more than 10 years ago the climate.

00:56:24.750 –> 00:56:27.330
Jacob Stoops: With media in that 10 years

00:56:27.660 –> 00:56:29.730
Angela Bergmann: Has changed radically

00:56:29.790 –> 00:56:31.530
Jacob Stoops: Especially with what’s going on in

00:56:31.740 –> 00:56:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Politics right now and it’s kind of like Hatfields and McCoys where like

00:56:37.380 –> 00:56:38.580
Jacob Stoops: One media outlet

00:56:39.180 –> 00:56:39.480
Angela Bergmann: Is

00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:46.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s very black and white against one side and the other media outlet outlet is very black and white against the other. And there’s no middle we

00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:55.320
Angela Bergmann: Are we are the enemy currently say I work on the agency side, but I still work for a media Publishing Company, first and foremost, we are the enemy right

00:56:55.650 –> 00:56:57.450
Jacob Stoops: So there’s a lot of bias.

00:56:57.930 –> 00:57:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Going on. So, so for these people like they have a right

00:57:01.470 –> 00:57:03.450
Jacob Stoops: To be pissed. I would be pissed if I was

00:57:03.480 –> 00:57:04.800
Jacob Stoops: misquoted or

00:57:04.830 –> 00:57:07.620
Jacob Stoops: Completely like having something a true. Oh, yeah.

00:57:07.950 –> 00:57:09.330
Angela Bergmann: You did. I didn’t say, but at the same

00:57:09.330 –> 00:57:12.900
Jacob Stoops: Time, like, consider the source. This is the wall.

00:57:12.900 –> 00:57:13.620
Jacob Stoops: Street Journal

00:57:14.190 –> 00:57:15.300
Jacob Stoops: They’re probably pushing an

00:57:15.300 –> 00:57:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Agenda, they’re not

00:57:17.760 –> 00:57:19.890
Angela Bergmann: An S. It’s not like their Search Engine Land.

00:57:19.950 –> 00:57:27.210
Jacob Stoops: Right. They’re not SEO news so they’re not people that know what goes on in the inner workings every day, like we do.

00:57:27.510 –> 00:57:44.310
Jacob Stoops: So, like, just by the very nature of it, they’re probably going to get some of it wrong or miss attribute or misunderstand some of what you’re saying. And when you layer that into the idea that there might be some sort of ulterior motive on the part of the reporter or the

00:57:45.630 –> 00:57:47.460
Jacob Stoops: The entity doing the publishing

00:57:48.690 –> 00:58:00.120
Jacob Stoops: I just think that probably the folks might have been a little naive to think that that wasn’t going to happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether they if I were in their situation being quoted

00:58:00.180 –> 00:58:01.680
Jacob Stoops: I probably would have provided a

00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Quote, to not saying that I wouldn’t have been it’s just an interesting way to, to think about it and I probably would have been mad if they miss quoted me. I don’t know if I would have thought of that way like cynically like I guess I should have expected it.

00:58:18.300 –> 00:58:30.390
Jacob Stoops: And I would imagine being in their place. Maybe they did think about that. Maybe they didn’t but like looking at it from an outsider’s perspective. I’m not surprised that it got distorted. So that’s my two cents.

00:58:31.530 –> 00:58:35.430
Jacob Stoops: Everybody in SEO who got quoted feel feel free to come and tap me but

00:58:36.300 –> 00:58:36.900
Jacob Stoops: I hope you don’t

00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:39.690
Angela Bergmann: I don’t want a part of

00:58:39.930 –> 00:58:40.650
Angela Bergmann: Twitter drama.

00:58:42.030 –> 00:58:44.460
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jeff, you can move on. That’s my piece.

00:58:44.940 –> 00:58:57.240
Jeff Louella: Cool. I mean, there was other parts to the story too. So, I mean, one of it. That was like a big thing right that Google’s manually changing things they’ve engineers behind that. Like they said that, you know, even a bot.

00:58:57.990 –> 00:58:58.950
Angela Bergmann: Placements

00:58:58.980 –> 00:59:00.420
Jeff Louella: You know, did to be better and

00:59:00.420 –> 00:59:00.960
Angela Bergmann: The search

00:59:02.220 –> 00:59:05.880
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, Hey, thank you for that upgrade, but I don’t think

00:59:06.660 –> 00:59:08.310
Jacob Stoops: That’s just called paid search

00:59:08.520 –> 00:59:09.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, so there was

00:59:10.080 –> 00:59:11.070
Jeff Louella: They’ve done paid search and

00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:16.050
Jeff Louella: Search. Right. So it’s, yeah, there were, there was a ton. You know, I think when the part of

00:59:16.350 –> 00:59:18.270
Angela Bergmann: A bigger budget. That’s not fair.

00:59:19.980 –> 00:59:23.400
Jeff Louella: They will parts of the Google employees thousand paid contractors

00:59:23.760 –> 00:59:29.070
Jeff Louella: Whose sole purpose is to assess the quality of the algorithm and rankings like that is a negative thing.

00:59:30.120 –> 00:59:30.780
Jeff Louella: Like and

00:59:30.990 –> 00:59:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Lots of corporations high opaque attractors to do things.

00:59:35.880 –> 00:59:48.390
Jeff Louella: But then they survey them and say, Okay, did you see the results that you expected. And they will say like yes or no. I think this should be here and there, and that’s where really brand dominance comes into play. Like if I’m searching for

00:59:48.870 –> 00:59:49.200
Jeff Louella: You know,

00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:50.820
Jeff Louella: Some sort of

00:59:51.690 –> 00:59:57.870
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, a stroller. And like I was expecting target to show up because targets right down the street from me.

00:59:58.470 –> 01:00:09.240
Jeff Louella: And I didn’t get target, I would probably say, hey, I thought like started with me there and then Google can just things to maybe get results, but they’re not like targets not calling them and saying, hey, we’re not number one.

01:00:10.110 –> 01:00:11.130
Jeff Louella: Let’s put us in this place.

01:00:11.160 –> 01:00:11.790
Jeff Louella: And they

01:00:12.510 –> 01:00:19.410
Jeff Louella: They’re saying this is across thousands of contractors, right, like a quick like you’re not just going to tweak something and be like, Okay. Like, that’s probably

01:00:19.830 –> 01:00:33.270
Jeff Louella: Everything with Google. One of the ranking factors, right, because other things come into place. You know, we know links and content and all this other stuff comes into play. But at the end, if there are giving you the results you you’re not going to use them. Right, so it’s

01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:33.780
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of

01:00:34.770 –> 01:00:36.000
Jeff Louella: The effect of where it’s

01:00:36.030 –> 01:00:45.750
Jeff Louella: You know, we see this on the side of things, right, where it’s, I mean, there’s one reason. Google is Google. And that’s because they mostly give us what we want.

01:00:46.500 –> 01:00:47.460
Angela Bergmann: As an SEO.

01:00:47.670 –> 01:00:57.480
Jeff Louella: I sometimes hate that, because I don’t want the, you know, this knowledge graph to come up above my client site, but as a consumer, like great answer my question banks.

01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Don’t need to go to the website so

01:01:00.030 –> 01:01:08.490
Jeff Louella: I see both sides of it and I had to think about it as a consumer side of things and consumers like we need like I’m typing into Google and he ever results.

01:01:09.150 –> 01:01:22.830
Jeff Louella: As an SEO. I hate that, like, okay, my 10 links are now push down because I have images and paid search and things in the paid side to me as a consumer who wouldn’t know it could be deceptive, to an extent.

01:01:24.270 –> 01:01:29.160
Jeff Louella: I mean, they may name it ads. But if I don’t know anything about search like I’m clicking one of those ads. Right, so it’s

01:01:30.360 –> 01:01:35.940
Jeff Louella: And hopefully Google’s placing the right ads, where they need to be collect or or someone’s paying for ads for no reason.

01:01:37.950 –> 01:01:40.320
Jeff Louella: But yeah, there’s a ton in there, I think.

01:01:41.490 –> 01:01:44.370
Jeff Louella: One of the things is like they went through and saying that

01:01:45.630 –> 01:01:47.850
Jeff Louella: They had a black list of

01:01:48.720 –> 01:01:50.310
Jeff Louella: Domain companies that they don’t

01:01:50.340 –> 01:01:51.030
Angela Bergmann: Rank well

01:01:51.660 –> 01:01:54.000
Jeff Louella: And maybe like

01:01:54.570 –> 01:01:56.100
Jeff Louella: I don’t think there’s like a whiteboard with like

01:01:56.100 –> 01:01:59.970
Jeff Louella: All, you know, or if you ever watch the TV show blacklist.

01:02:01.380 –> 01:02:02.670
Jeff Louella: Yeah, or anything like that.

01:02:02.670 –> 01:02:03.900
Angela Bergmann: But it’s like hey

01:02:04.170 –> 01:02:06.660
Jeff Louella: There’s spammers out there and of course

01:02:06.810 –> 01:02:07.230
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:02:07.590 –> 01:02:09.090
Jeff Louella: We don’t want them showing up.

01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:10.260
Jeff Louella: Because we weren’t following reason.

01:02:10.680 –> 01:02:14.520
Angela Bergmann: Now it does not exist for a reason.

01:02:16.590 –> 01:02:20.820
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve got all those files were self reporting.

01:02:22.500 –> 01:02:23.250
Angela Bergmann: So, I mean, I think.

01:02:23.280 –> 01:02:25.620
Jeff Louella: As SEOs we get this and we see it as bad and I

01:02:25.710 –> 01:02:27.720
Angela Bergmann: Understand the backlash lash out there.

01:02:28.440 –> 01:02:29.970
Jeff Louella: On there, but it’s one of those where

01:02:31.350 –> 01:02:39.210
Jeff Louella: Maybe this is where like we were talking about earlier that like I feel like the beginner stuff that I like to look like everyone knows that.

01:02:40.110 –> 01:02:51.360
Jeff Louella: But there’s, you know, and it comes to things like that, especially in the Wall Street Journal, maybe point 1% knows, like the truth there and that’s where it comes damaging and I think we also tried to

01:02:51.390 –> 01:02:53.280
Angela Bergmann: defend ourselves as SEOs

01:02:53.460 –> 01:02:56.730
Jeff Louella: Plenty of times we. There’s a lot of bad

01:02:56.910 –> 01:02:57.600
Angela Bergmann: News out there.

01:02:57.660 –> 01:02:58.380
Right, so

01:03:00.270 –> 01:03:02.130
Jeff Louella: We don’t want to be misquoted like a good ones don’t.

01:03:02.160 –> 01:03:04.320
Jeff Louella: Be misquoted or see like we’re playing

01:03:04.560 –> 01:03:07.290
Angela Bergmann: Like magic that’s going on. So, I get that.

01:03:10.590 –> 01:03:14.190
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s where I think some of the frustration for that article comes from is that it’s

01:03:15.390 –> 01:03:17.220
Angela Bergmann: A more highly regarded new sort of

01:03:19.110 –> 01:03:24.870
Angela Bergmann: Niche recording misreporting about our industry when we already. We already have enough crap that we have to

01:03:28.290 –> 01:03:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Add them in. Now, to think

01:03:31.620 –> 01:03:33.210
Angela Bergmann: That is a good point and

01:03:34.260 –> 01:03:43.890
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, you brought up a good point. Like, there are a lot of bad SEO is out there. And one of the thoughts that was occurring in my brain was, well, if I’m a bad SEO like

01:03:44.460 –> 01:03:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Do I know that I’m a bad SEO and probably the answer is, not always. And I’m not saying any of those folks are bad SEOs but what occurred to me. Next is if I were a good SEO.

01:03:56.730 –> 01:04:04.380
Jacob Stoops: And this is some sort of a smear against Google or a sneer against SEO in general.

01:04:05.040 –> 01:04:18.390
Jacob Stoops: There might be the perception that I’m a bad SEO and I wouldn’t want that perception associated with me if, indeed, I was a good SEO. So yeah, I could see where the folks might get mad about that. It is a good question. I never

01:04:18.390 –> 01:04:22.320
Jeff Louella: Thought about was advantage to that I know if I was an SEO.

01:04:23.730 –> 01:04:35.040
Jeff Louella: Like the link builders realize that there. I guess spammers and other spammers right so it’s, yeah. But there’s, I mean there. I know there’s white hat Red Hat and things like that so

01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:38.220
Angela Bergmann: It’s interesting because I just don’t

01:04:39.060 –> 01:04:54.870
Jeff Louella: I do find that that that look right with companies that like, oh, SEO is black magic or SEO is is bad and actually fighting internal politics at companies where I’m trying to tell a developer, how to code a site a certain way.

01:04:55.200 –> 01:04:56.040
Jeff Louella: Am I giving you the code.

01:04:56.400 –> 01:04:57.630
Angela Bergmann: We need these results at the

01:04:57.630 –> 01:04:58.500
Jeff Louella: End and

01:04:58.530 –> 01:05:00.150
Jeff Louella: They think of me as like

01:05:01.500 –> 01:05:02.220
Angela Bergmann: The enemy.

01:05:02.490 –> 01:05:04.080
Jeff Louella: The enemy and something so

01:05:04.890 –> 01:05:08.220
Jeff Louella: Having more fuel to their fire is not what I’m looking for.

01:05:08.700 –> 01:05:09.300
Angela Bergmann: And it. Yeah.

01:05:09.360 –> 01:05:10.440
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I’m not gonna say like

01:05:11.010 –> 01:05:17.760
Jeff Louella: Hey trust everything in SEO says also because I think that’s why there could be some misquotes in that article, depending on the interview.

01:05:18.660 –> 01:05:27.090
Jeff Louella: Like there are plenty of SEO is out there who believe Google’s manipulating your search results. And that’s why they can’t get the number one. That’s what they’re telling their clients like you’ll never be

01:05:27.630 –> 01:05:29.430
Jeff Louella: Target because their target.

01:05:29.850 –> 01:05:37.890
Jeff Louella: And there might be some truth to that. But to say that Google reserve this spot for target is not. Yeah, it’s not right. It’s

01:05:38.550 –> 01:05:43.290
Jeff Louella: Become become Amazon like Amazon started off as a guy in the back of his truck like delivering books.

01:05:43.830 –> 01:05:52.860
Jeff Louella: And now he’s Amazon right and not everyone can do that of course it’s a it’s an amazing story, but the same time you know it’s it’s really hard for small business.

01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:05.790
Jeff Louella: Right now to rank for those top end terms. You got to find a better way. You know, whether it’s social or just giving customers different, you know, becoming that authority becoming that like expertise.

01:06:06.750 –> 01:06:15.480
Jeff Louella: It’s it’s a lot of work and it’s not something you can pay $500 a month to do, especially when you’re fighting against like someone like Target and Amazon in

01:06:15.870 –> 01:06:16.500
Angela Bergmann: Our space.

01:06:17.610 –> 01:06:27.240
Angela Bergmann: And the point that I always make people to as those top terms are going to be your conversion point. Anyways, so just ignore them like they’re not going to actually turn into dollars for you. You don’t want that traffic.

01:06:29.070 –> 01:06:30.240
Jacob Stoops: But people have vanity.

01:06:31.050 –> 01:06:33.450
Angela Bergmann: And people have egos.

01:06:34.080 –> 01:06:35.490
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the problem.

01:06:35.670 –> 01:06:39.150
Angela Bergmann: They want those terms. Yeah, and have them so

01:06:40.410 –> 01:06:49.470
Jacob Stoops: Anyways. So Jeff, I know that there’s some other news, we’re running short on short on time. So I want to dive into structured data.

01:06:51.660 –> 01:06:54.120
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. I know.

01:06:54.540 –> 01:06:55.200
You were saying

01:06:56.340 –> 01:06:57.150
That you do

01:06:58.530 –> 01:07:07.770
Jacob Stoops: You work all the time in structured data. So I guess what are, what are your thoughts. What do you like about it. What do you not like about it. What would you recommend to people.

01:07:09.360 –> 01:07:24.540
Angela Bergmann: So I’ll start with the thing that I don’t like about it on. I don’t like how little visibility, there is into the reporting for it because of how critical it’s become so their search console. I can see some rich snippet information.

01:07:26.940 –> 01:07:27.960
Angela Bergmann: Kind of what again.

01:07:29.190 –> 01:07:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Like at least there’s that visibility, so I can show the eyeball, um,

01:07:36.060 –> 01:07:49.440
Angela Bergmann: So I’ve started, including that in my reporting for clients but but more robust reporting specific to snippet placement would be amazing, because I do at the end of the day, understand that it’s

01:07:51.210 –> 01:07:57.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s tough to the Google can make money, but it also is user experience, the less the user has to click the happier. They are

01:07:59.250 –> 01:08:06.990
Angela Bergmann: And so Google is going to make their money. So I totally 100% yet it from their side, but I really want

01:08:08.970 –> 01:08:26.130
Angela Bergmann: To be able to show my clients, where they’re showing up like here’s all the backend work that I’ve done. Here’s all the coding that we’ve done implemented and it’s working. Here’s the effect that it’s having not just looked at all eyeballs that for you. Yeah.

01:08:28.920 –> 01:08:29.760
Angela Bergmann: You like it.

01:08:31.680 –> 01:08:41.880
Jacob Stoops: The thing that I find interesting in like Jeff, I would say, Jeff, you’re probably a little bit more technical than, than I am, although I’m pretty I’m pretty technical is

01:08:42.900 –> 01:08:51.870
Jacob Stoops: Everybody knows, quote unquote, I’m gonna say quote unquote knows that structured data is supposedly a good thing, right.

01:08:53.040 –> 01:09:03.390
Jacob Stoops: And there’s all kinds of structured data out there and I’m glad that we’re now calling it structured data because that’s the larger umbrella. A lot of people just call it schema.org and I keep going well.

01:09:03.390 –> 01:09:04.680
Angela Bergmann: That’s, that’s one type

01:09:05.160 –> 01:09:05.580
Jacob Stoops: But like

01:09:05.610 –> 01:09:17.850
Jacob Stoops: There are a bunch of other not a bunch. But there are other types of structured data that Google can use. So people a lot of times get structured data and schema.org confused confused and

01:09:18.210 –> 01:09:18.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:09:19.050 –> 01:09:19.530
I find it.

01:09:20.580 –> 01:09:39.300
Jacob Stoops: I find that part. Interesting. But the thing, the thing about structured data in general is is when we’re doing a technical audit or when we’re working on a sites technical foundation that is one of our leading recommendations in terms of things that we often see lacking that need

01:09:39.480 –> 01:09:41.250
Angela Bergmann: Implemented but the thought.

01:09:41.280 –> 01:09:53.430
Jacob Stoops: Always occurs to me is, should it be, should it be one of our leading recommendations. And the reason why is there are so many types of structured data out there.

01:09:54.120 –> 01:10:07.050
Jacob Stoops: What the things that actually populate rich snippets in search results versus the amount of structured data that’s available that you could mark your site up with. It’s like

01:10:07.110 –> 01:10:08.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, and percent

01:10:08.850 –> 01:10:11.820
Jacob Stoops: Or 20% or I don’t even know what the percentage is but like

01:10:12.690 –> 01:10:14.670
Jacob Stoops: You could mark mark the

01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:28.440
Jacob Stoops: Crap out of your site with all kinds of structured data and there’s no proof. There’s no proof that it’s actually doing anything beneficial for you until you get some sort of a rich snippet.

01:10:28.890 –> 01:10:39.180
Jacob Stoops: And what you’re saying and it’s in. It’s very true is even when you get that the reporting is so limited in terms in terms of is it doing anything valuable.

01:10:39.540 –> 01:10:56.730
Jacob Stoops: For you that it always makes me scratch my head when I hear folks go yeah structured data is is good and we want to feed Google a bunch of information and we need to get that implemented right away because it’s critical to technical site health

01:10:57.330 –> 01:10:58.650
Jacob Stoops: And the thing I always like

01:10:59.130 –> 01:11:00.180
Jacob Stoops: Take a step back and

01:11:00.180 –> 01:11:05.280
Jacob Stoops: Think is okay. I agree. But like, when we’re talking to the client like

01:11:05.730 –> 01:11:19.650
Jacob Stoops: A lot of times they need proof and they need evidence and they need a reason to prioritize something in their development queue or to display something in their development huge prioritize your recommendations. And the thing I

01:11:19.650 –> 01:11:19.980
Angela Bergmann: Always

01:11:20.040 –> 01:11:22.080
Jacob Stoops: Worry about is we have such a limited

01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:35.850
Jacob Stoops: window to get things implemented and to make an impact before our contract runs out on the agency side and I always worry that we’re blindly following quote unquote best practices because Google

01:11:36.450 –> 01:11:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Pushes it or because we think it’s a best practice without ever testing it on the other end without testing say hey I implemented blog post schema. Okay, well, that’s great. Did it do anything for you.

01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.120
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know. That’s usually the answer. I don’t know.

01:11:55.200 –> 01:12:11.460
Jacob Stoops: But it’s the best practice. So I guess I should implement it and the thing about it is that that honestly that drives me crazy. And what I wish is one that they were better recording and to I wish that more SEOs with think along the

01:12:12.570 –> 01:12:18.300
Jacob Stoops: Would use the Frank. The, the line of thinking of test it and measure

01:12:18.690 –> 01:12:19.800
Angela Bergmann: Once you implement it.

01:12:20.190 –> 01:12:21.210
Angela Bergmann: You what then happens

01:12:21.210 –> 01:12:38.610
Jacob Stoops: After that, from a result standpoint and document it so that when you go to another client and you recommend that particular type of structured data scheme or whatever you can say, hey, I did this on this client. And it worked out really well. And here’s why. And

01:12:39.180 –> 01:12:40.440
Jacob Stoops: Times, like, especially with

01:12:40.440 –> 01:12:49.020
Jacob Stoops: Things that don’t trigger rich snippets, it’s going to be correlation and not necessarily causation, because there’s not really a lot of reporting on it.

01:12:50.820 –> 01:12:51.990
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, that’s all I can.

01:12:51.990 –> 01:12:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Do and say, oh, well, we saw this many more eyeballs.

01:12:57.330 –> 01:13:07.890
Angela Bergmann: That then we do an audit and then we switch over to analytics and we look at, like, they’re your of your organic and then see if their conversion rate is increased and let’s talk about your correlating that if it did increase

01:13:08.460 –> 01:13:15.060
Angela Bergmann: It’s probably due to the snippet capture. There’s that connection, isn’t there yet. Yeah. And like

01:13:15.630 –> 01:13:23.460
Jacob Stoops: Don’t get me wrong, I love working unstructured data like nothing makes me happier than to sit for an hour and to develop some like

01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Clean beautiful JSON structured data market to pass over to the client, say, hey, just throw this into your page. And it’s that part for me because I come from, like, a technical background like

01:13:36.240 –> 01:13:44.550
Jacob Stoops: I enjoy doing that and I enjoy putting those recommendations together for clients and I enjoy even more when they implement them and they implement them correctly.

01:13:44.880 –> 01:13:45.990
Jacob Stoops: When I can go. Yes.

01:13:46.440 –> 01:13:47.670
Jacob Stoops: data testing tool and

01:13:47.670 –> 01:13:50.460
Jacob Stoops: See no validation like that.

01:13:50.820 –> 01:13:51.630
Jacob Stoops: That stuff like

01:13:52.080 –> 01:13:59.310
Jacob Stoops: That makes my heart happy but like the cynic in me and I think every good SEO is also part cynic.

01:14:00.030 –> 01:14:01.020
Angela Bergmann: Automatically

01:14:01.080 –> 01:14:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Also thinks like, Okay, I’ve got a

01:14:02.730 –> 01:14:10.650
Jacob Stoops: I’ve got a finite amount of time with this client, potentially, and I’ve got a finite amount of things that they can implement and I always think like

01:14:10.710 –> 01:14:11.070
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:14:12.000 –> 01:14:13.080
Jacob Stoops: Is this the thing that’s going to

01:14:13.080 –> 01:14:24.300
Jacob Stoops: move the needle or is this the thing we’re just trying to get in place, because it’s a best practice and like I think we should all think about the things that move the needle and move those up in the queue before the things that

01:14:24.840 –> 01:14:25.320
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, our

01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:27.450
Angela Bergmann: Housekeeping best practice items.

01:14:29.040 –> 01:14:43.080
Angela Bergmann: And it depends on the vertical to so like if you’re, if you have a client that’s in a vertical where eyeballs are really important. So I one of the one of the clients that I run very high volume schema for is a realtor

01:14:44.610 –> 01:14:51.960
Angela Bergmann: They care about eyeballs and they they’re competing against Zillow and Trulia and all of these sites. So realistically

01:14:52.290 –> 01:15:00.480
Angela Bergmann: They’re generating content they’re doing all the other stuff that we tend to do for clients. So they’re literally a technical client for us. I

01:15:00.870 –> 01:15:07.890
Angela Bergmann: Hold their developer accountable. The page speed improvements and then I implement schema on their site. And that’s all I do for them.

01:15:08.580 –> 01:15:20.910
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve seen huge organic growth year over year because of that, but they’re one of those situations where I get to have fun and do that because they’re just looking for visibility, they’re not looking for conversions.

01:15:21.750 –> 01:15:32.430
Angela Bergmann: How do I have plants were schema might be fantastic, but they don’t even have content so content got to come first. Oh, let me ask you this.

01:15:32.730 –> 01:15:34.860
Angela Bergmann: How did you get into a situation where

01:15:35.130 –> 01:15:41.640
Jacob Stoops: The client trust you enough to implement schema, because usually like developers are like, keep your damn hands off.

01:15:43.950 –> 01:15:56.370
Angela Bergmann: Um, basically, the way I so we did an audit of their site. We have a custom audit. That’s about 120 pages looks about 350 different points that we go over

01:15:57.630 –> 01:16:06.390
Angela Bergmann: Everything and then really for them. I was like, you know, you as a realtor you have great content, your, your descriptions for your homes are amazing.

01:16:07.410 –> 01:16:18.810
Angela Bergmann: your site’s going to be a little slow, but it’s a little slower than I think it should be especially when comparing it to your competitors and I pitched them. I said, here’s the thing. I was like, you’re not going to be Zillow

01:16:20.340 –> 01:16:34.500
Angela Bergmann: You’re just not but you can beat the other local realtors because somebody’s going to find a home on Zillow and then they know that they’re going to have to go to somebody local so you can be the second result after those big company.

01:16:35.850 –> 01:16:50.370
Angela Bergmann: And I taught them because they had no. The reason they had reached out as they’d notice that one of their competitive agencies was showing up before them for the same homes and I determined that it was because their title and none of the structure was pretty terrible.

01:16:51.600 –> 01:17:08.430
Angela Bergmann: Got their developers to change it saw within like a couple of months saw drastic change where they were starting to beat them out. And I was like, here’s the next step. The next step is going to be applying schema because they don’t have it Zillow does

01:17:09.480 –> 01:17:14.550
Angela Bergmann: That that’s your that’s your sweet spot. And it’s approved to work.

01:17:16.560 –> 01:17:27.690
Angela Bergmann: So it was fun. We had a really good relationship with this client already on our paid search side so that helps as well and just having a good real good trusting relationship with this client.

01:17:28.200 –> 01:17:39.630
Angela Bergmann: And they kind of let me roll those dice and I was like, I think this is going to pay off. So I told them to. I said, You know, I can’t make any guarantees on this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

01:17:41.280 –> 01:17:44.850
Angela Bergmann: And a year later, we we’ve seen, we’ve seen it pan out

01:17:46.350 –> 01:17:57.990
Angela Bergmann: But there is that fear you know as an SEO as it goes like, you’re like, No, no, this really should be the thing. It should should work. It should work. Yeah, please God, let it warm.

01:18:00.420 –> 01:18:03.390
Angela Bergmann: Google does they have some examples like

01:18:03.540 –> 01:18:04.710
Jeff Louella: Google does give some good advice.

01:18:04.890 –> 01:18:06.120
Jeff Louella: On like

01:18:06.720 –> 01:18:17.820
Jeff Louella: How to schema. Like, like if you do it right. Like it doesn’t guarantee, but you can get a nice you know how to section on your mobile phone or FAQ schema. But then there are those ones out there.

01:18:17.880 –> 01:18:18.120
Angela Bergmann: Like

01:18:18.900 –> 01:18:23.010
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, I just kind of looked up real quick there like one for comic books.

01:18:23.040 –> 01:18:24.810
Jeff Louella: I mean, I guess if you have a comic book site.

01:18:24.810 –> 01:18:29.430
Jeff Louella: Or stuff, but it’s like the product. Is it, like, Is Google going to do anything. Yeah.

01:18:29.460 –> 01:18:30.540
Jeff Louella: On that one or

01:18:31.050 –> 01:18:39.090
Jeff Louella: Are they gonna do anything for if you are. I don’t know, looking here like movies make sense. Like there’s certain ones I know events.

01:18:39.420 –> 01:18:42.630
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, certain ones that I know that we need to to be

01:18:43.770 –> 01:18:59.400
Jeff Louella: You know ingested into Google properly and kind of displayed in their stuff that there’s ones that we need. But then there are a whole bunch out there like I know bread crumbs, give, give me good bread crumbs. I know that you know there’s tools out there.

01:18:59.430 –> 01:18:59.790
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:18:59.940 –> 01:19:00.750
Jeff Louella: A whole bunch that are

01:19:01.230 –> 01:19:13.020
Jeff Louella: No clue on local like I usually don’t recommend it really easy depending again on vertical insight, like there’s a there’s a handful that I recommend and then either are so many more.

01:19:13.740 –> 01:19:25.320
Jeff Louella: And is it like eventually Google is going to get around to these and they’re eventually going to be put in there. Are we ahead of the game are we wasting our time like and Jake is you’re saying, You’re right, like there are up.

01:19:25.500 –> 01:19:26.010
Jeff Louella: Even if

01:19:26.070 –> 01:19:29.490
Jeff Louella: We have a finite amount of time to know results.

01:19:30.090 –> 01:19:31.380
Jeff Louella: And thinking for like

01:19:31.800 –> 01:19:33.930
Jeff Louella: Four years down the road is not one of them right now.

01:19:34.950 –> 01:19:35.250
Jeff Louella: And

01:19:35.880 –> 01:19:36.930
Angela Bergmann: I’m hoping that

01:19:37.320 –> 01:19:45.870
Jeff Louella: Structured data helps other things too, right, like so right now we have things like open graph that like when you put it on your site and some post on to

01:19:46.230 –> 01:19:57.270
Jeff Louella: Your Pinterest or Facebook, it pulls that information in. From there, you know, Twitter has their Twitter cards and stuff but like I think structured data can feed other things like your calendar, because you have an event.

01:19:57.690 –> 01:19:59.280
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, your calendar should integrate with

01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.180
Jeff Louella: Schema to pull those events into your calendar and things like that. Yep scheme is

01:20:03.210 –> 01:20:04.350
Angela Bergmann: Great that way, but

01:20:04.380 –> 01:20:08.850
Jeff Louella: I don’t see like Microsoft Outlook using them yet.

01:20:08.880 –> 01:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: Right, so it’s we do it as SEOs

01:20:10.830 –> 01:20:11.580
Angela Bergmann: For SEO.

01:20:12.060 –> 01:20:26.190
Jeff Louella: And I feel like there’s such a big potential for every other type of app out there that needs to be data. I think on my website, which is sad. These days, I think of it as like a feed that I’m feeding Google, um, you know, if you think

01:20:26.220 –> 01:20:26.910
Jeff Louella: About it as like

01:20:27.090 –> 01:20:28.110
Jeff Louella: Here’s my XML feed.

01:20:28.110 –> 01:20:32.550
Jeff Louella: Here’s my content for years, all these different fields. And then let’s get it to make it pretty for customers.

01:20:33.540 –> 01:20:49.110
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of how I think and things, but not everybody does, of course, but I would love for you know like music playlist schema to be able to be ingested by my iTunes app, but it’s not there right now. Like it’s it’s really just

01:20:49.110 –> 01:20:50.100
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, just

01:20:52.230 –> 01:21:05.340
Angela Bergmann: Like the only ones that I really focus on is like Product Listing blog FAQ. Um, we’re doing a lot of with the medical related schema.

01:21:06.570 –> 01:21:09.420
Angela Bergmann: Just because that’s huge in search, obviously.

01:21:10.830 –> 01:21:11.490
Angela Bergmann: And then

01:21:14.070 –> 01:21:24.660
Angela Bergmann: Organizational schema like by default we essentially load organizational schema for every client. And that’s really and then it’s like, based on the client kind of where we go from there. So,

01:21:24.870 –> 01:21:30.360
Angela Bergmann: I always tell clients because they’ll ask about that. How do I get position zero. I’m like, well, you have to have good content first

01:21:33.300 –> 01:21:34.200
Jacob Stoops: Ever had

01:21:34.650 –> 01:21:53.970
Jacob Stoops: Any instances where you recommended a particular I’m going to say product schema, for example, and a client was apprehensive about some of the features of their product or offering showing up in search results for a consumer to see

01:21:59.430 –> 01:22:00.930
That I haven’t yet.

01:22:02.580 –> 01:22:03.120
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

01:22:03.210 –> 01:22:05.910
Jacob Stoops: I have a, I have a story where I

01:22:07.650 –> 01:22:21.600
Jacob Stoops: had a client who is I guess what I would call up they make a premium product. So it’s like the within what they do. It’s like the Cadillac, not the Honda version.

01:22:21.630 –> 01:22:23.460
Angela Bergmann: Of a product and

01:22:23.640 –> 01:22:33.810
Jacob Stoops: They make a really great product, but we were working to implement product schema. And one of the things that’s a huge component of that is, price, price and availability and

01:22:36.780 –> 01:22:39.480
Angela Bergmann: They did not want to expose price in

01:22:41.220 –> 01:22:42.300
Jacob Stoops: Right, yeah.

01:22:42.690 –> 01:22:43.890
Angela Bergmann: Their price is

01:22:43.920 –> 01:22:53.490
Jacob Stoops: A little bit higher. And I thought that that was an interesting position to take, given that a consumer is going to figure it out once they click

01:22:54.180 –> 01:22:55.230
Angela Bergmann: And get to the site.

01:22:55.260 –> 01:23:04.320
Jacob Stoops: But when I think about it from their perspective. Well, the consumer sees that price they may never click on it in the first place.

01:23:04.380 –> 01:23:11.220
Angela Bergmann: And they’re not going to understand the context is they’re not going to understand the context, they’re just going to see this much more expensive thing.

01:23:11.220 –> 01:23:12.720
Angela Bergmann: Especially if other sites.

01:23:12.930 –> 01:23:15.930
Jacob Stoops: In the competitive set are using that schema and

01:23:15.930 –> 01:23:22.830
Angela Bergmann: showing their price. Oh, although I think the argument could be made for a client like that that

01:23:24.570 –> 01:23:26.430
Angela Bergmann: I’m more scared when there’s no price.

01:23:27.600 –> 01:23:28.080
Angela Bergmann: Right.

01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:32.070
Jacob Stoops: What right, and like, okay, if I’m a consumer and

01:23:32.100 –> 01:23:33.540
Jacob Stoops: I look at that and I’m

01:23:33.960 –> 01:23:35.520
Jacob Stoops: Looking for that particular

01:23:35.520 –> 01:23:41.100
Jacob Stoops: PRODUCT, AND I’M AFRAID OF THE PRICE my really the right type of consumer for you. Anyways, is

01:23:41.160 –> 01:23:41.970
Angela Bergmann: One. Yeah.

01:23:42.600 –> 01:23:43.530
Jacob Stoops: And I’ve seen

01:23:43.830 –> 01:23:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Not what this schema, necessarily, but with I’ve seen with review schema, the one of the few times I’ve been able, and this was in the past when there just wasn’t a lot of data.

01:23:57.090 –> 01:24:01.710
Jacob Stoops: YOU WOULD THERE WASN’T THE NICE Google Search Console data that there is now where

01:24:02.940 –> 01:24:10.530
Jacob Stoops: We had star ratings and there was a time when because they worked with a specific vendor bizarre voice.

01:24:11.790 –> 01:24:12.330
Jacob Stoops: Who I hate

01:24:13.530 –> 01:24:14.940
Jacob Stoops: They worked with that vendor.

01:24:14.940 –> 01:24:16.140
Jacob Stoops: And their

01:24:16.170 –> 01:24:17.250
Jacob Stoops: star ratings.

01:24:17.970 –> 01:24:21.720
Jacob Stoops: Magically dropped off because their schema was wrong and then

01:24:22.470 –> 01:24:35.340
Jacob Stoops: Once we worked with bizarre voice to get that fixed the star ratings came back and we because we had that nice apples to apples comparison were able to get a very clean.

01:24:35.820 –> 01:24:50.070
Jacob Stoops: Before, and after. And were able to get a very clean incremental click through rate gain based on just the presence of star ratings in in search results, and it was substantial and for that brand in

01:24:50.070 –> 01:24:50.820
Angela Bergmann: Particular

01:24:51.210 –> 01:24:52.530
Jacob Stoops: There are massive worldwide.

01:24:52.530 –> 01:25:10.830
Jacob Stoops: Brand. So an increasing click through rate of 1% for them met hundreds of thousands of more visitors just by having star ratings and that’s the argument that I always try to use with with clients in terms of things that are going to trigger rich snippets in search results is like hey

01:25:12.210 –> 01:25:19.830
Jacob Stoops: It’s highly likely that more people are going to click on your, your page as a result of this, this feature, but

01:25:19.920 –> 01:25:20.250
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:25:20.640 –> 01:25:22.020
Jacob Stoops: On the business side they’re, you know,

01:25:22.020 –> 01:25:31.110
Jacob Stoops: They’re definitely thinking of their business and they’re trying to they’re there, they were taking the opposite stance that if people see our price, which is a Cadillac price.

01:25:32.370 –> 01:25:39.750
Jacob Stoops: Maybe there’ll be scared away. So that was an interesting, interesting little tidbit that I’ve that I’ve been through before it was

01:25:40.770 –> 01:25:43.110
Jacob Stoops: Interesting. I’ll just say, I’ll leave it at that.

01:25:47.640 –> 01:25:49.590
Jeff Louella: DOESN’T SURPRISE either and

01:25:49.710 –> 01:25:51.210
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s, it’s

01:25:51.840 –> 01:25:59.760
Jeff Louella: Not because they don’t want to. It’s because they also have half their businesses are franchise and the franchisees

01:26:00.450 –> 01:26:01.710
Angela Bergmann: Price. Ooh.

01:26:02.340 –> 01:26:05.220
Jeff Louella: And even though it’s mostly the same there are

01:26:05.400 –> 01:26:06.780
Jeff Louella: Outliers, where if

01:26:06.900 –> 01:26:25.440
Jeff Louella: That same business has a store in Alaska. It takes the they sell it for more expensive because you have to ship to Alaska to have it in their store. And so they charge maybe $1 more and they don’t you know when people going in the store saying like your website says this price.

01:26:26.610 –> 01:26:33.090
Jeff Louella: For this price. So the only way to get prices is when you get to the website is to select your local store and then you get that local stores pricing.

01:26:34.380 –> 01:26:39.720
Jeff Louella: But Google does not have a local store and or or if they did, it would always be

01:26:39.990 –> 01:26:54.930
Jeff Louella: The pricing and that’s one of those where they can’t do it. And I feel sometimes I I’m fighting a battle with, you know, one hand tied behind my back because matter all the arguments I have like they’re like, we have to look out for our franchisees

01:26:55.980 –> 01:27:03.450
Jeff Louella: So it’s, it’s an interesting battle there. So we try to do other things, of course, but like we just give the highest price, then, and then they were saying they don’t want to do that either.

01:27:04.200 –> 01:27:07.470
Angela Bergmann: Well, people are surprised when it’s lower on the website.

01:27:07.830 –> 01:27:09.150
Jeff Louella: When it’s cheaper.

01:27:10.620 –> 01:27:11.040
Angela Bergmann: But they

01:27:11.070 –> 01:27:14.940
Jeff Louella: They have that fear, then no one would come to the site, then if they knew it was more money than

01:27:15.390 –> 01:27:16.260
Jacob Stoops: What I’m

01:27:17.460 –> 01:27:20.070
Jacob Stoops: What do you guys think is the future of structured data.

01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:40.440
Angela Bergmann: I think rejected point out, like the tada further time. Yeah. So having it not just be Information Center. Google is being able to leverage that in other ways at a calendar invite

01:27:40.950 –> 01:27:56.370
Angela Bergmann: You know load something add something to an app like I think further leveraging of it because it’s structured data format it in a way that makes it easy to process into things. So how can we use that better.

01:27:57.900 –> 01:27:58.110
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:27:58.260 –> 01:27:59.340
Jeff Louella: I agree. That’s where I

01:27:59.340 –> 01:28:01.170
Jeff Louella: Think, and I see

01:28:01.230 –> 01:28:06.960
Jeff Louella: You know, I know, wants to schema.org there’s a million like a million, but they keep growing the

01:28:07.350 –> 01:28:08.340
Jeff Louella: Other the other does it

01:28:08.700 –> 01:28:10.080
Jeff Louella: Because everything right, it’s

01:28:10.200 –> 01:28:15.660
Jeff Louella: Gonna look at a coffee Cal Poly. We might have coffee cup schema. One day when there’s this different sub levels because you can

01:28:15.660 –> 01:28:16.560
Jeff Louella: Keep adding like

01:28:16.920 –> 01:28:19.590
Jeff Louella: You start off with a thing. And then we break that down and we break that

01:28:19.590 –> 01:28:20.190
Jeff Louella: Down and

01:28:20.220 –> 01:28:20.550
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

01:28:21.480 –> 01:28:22.920
Jeff Louella: To the point where we can’t

01:28:23.400 –> 01:28:29.160
Jeff Louella: Can we all we can meet over structured data, probably, but at the same time.

01:28:29.250 –> 01:28:30.570
Angela Bergmann: It’s structure, I think.

01:28:31.140 –> 01:28:44.250
Jeff Louella: The goal of structured data is off of the web also so or not. So often the web, but off of like your web page and into apps and things like that were made, just like sharing easy. I kind of think of it as like

01:28:44.970 –> 01:28:53.460
Jeff Louella: Elon Musk open sourced the electrical system for Tesla because he knows that if there’s 17 different plugins to plug in

01:28:54.120 –> 01:29:07.890
Jeff Louella: That know like if I had a Ford electric car, you had a Chevy and then someone wasn’t a Tesla, we could interchange our electrical plugs, there would be no electric cars will not take off because everyone is the same gas tank.

01:29:07.920 –> 01:29:09.090
Right, so there are

01:29:10.410 –> 01:29:16.740
Jeff Louella: You know the structure to that that and reason why there’s a certain sizes and components to it so

01:29:17.040 –> 01:29:22.710
Jeff Louella: If I have an app, it’d be awesome to be able to, like, I know my app can interface with your app, because we use similar structures in our data.

01:29:23.010 –> 01:29:33.720
Jeff Louella: I can send you my map results. I can switch between being and someone else because and Google Maps, because they use the same structure in a structured data, I think.

01:29:34.140 –> 01:29:36.450
Angela Bergmann: That helps machine, talk to the machine.

01:29:36.960 –> 01:29:41.190
Jeff Louella: And at the end of the day, it’s you know, it’s just trying to figure it out and makes everything more

01:29:41.760 –> 01:29:45.420
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the way I hope it goes, because I

01:29:45.420 –> 01:29:55.110
Jeff Louella: Really feel as kind of a nerd who like to develop and he likes to interface with other systems. I don’t want to have to have an Excel document in between and

01:29:55.140 –> 01:29:56.640
Jeff Louella: Transform all my data.

01:29:56.970 –> 01:29:58.290
Jeff Louella: You know, and to then

01:29:58.350 –> 01:30:14.280
Jeff Louella: Push it off to somewhere else, which I do a lot of my reporting now. But, you know, I’d love to be able to have, like, you know what is in Google Analytics, right, like a session in Adobe analytics is not what especially means in Google Analytics or a user. And there’s all these different

01:30:14.280 –> 01:30:14.760
Angela Bergmann: Terms.

01:30:15.030 –> 01:30:22.260
Jeff Louella: Of having like a structure between them all would actually be awesome, because then we can compare apples to apples and not apples to bananas, let’s let’s

01:30:23.760 –> 01:30:26.250
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela, where can people find you.

01:30:29.370 –> 01:30:29.970
Angela Bergmann: Twitter.

01:30:31.920 –> 01:30:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Twitter. I’m at Red kitten.

01:30:34.680 –> 01:30:37.530
Angela Bergmann: That’s probably the best place to find me.

01:30:38.070 –> 01:30:40.350
Angela Bergmann: That is a great handle. Where does that handle come

01:30:40.350 –> 01:30:40.680

01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:51.600
Angela Bergmann: Um, that was actually my original like one of my original domain was red kittens on and Yun was where I was blogging and it just kind of stuck.

01:30:53.430 –> 01:30:59.010
Angela Bergmann: I even use it like in World of Warcraft. So that’s my my card plate is red pitney

01:31:01.320 –> 01:31:03.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, mine’s just Jacob stoops.com I guess I need to

01:31:03.750 –> 01:31:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Be or Jacob stoops just as Jacob stoops I guess I just in years. Jeff is just at Jeff, Luella I guess we need to get more creative.

01:31:11.340 –> 01:31:17.880
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a time in my life where I had like fun handles, and then I became like a ship poster.

01:31:19.470 –> 01:31:27.780
Jeff Louella: Looks like you know if I use my real name. It really makes me think about that. I’m going to post because when I didn’t have my real name on there like starting flame wars.

01:31:28.110 –> 01:31:28.590

01:31:30.450 –> 01:31:32.190
Jeff Louella: Like way happier using my real name.

01:31:32.250 –> 01:31:35.280
Jacob Stoops: Next episode is just all about Jeff’s burner accounts.

01:31:37.920 –> 01:31:44.880
Angela Bergmann: My Twitter does have my real name on it though. So I don’t know, getting away. Yeah, there is no anyways.

01:31:44.970 –> 01:31:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Um, thank you so much for for coming on. We really. We really appreciate it and go browns.

01:31:53.430 –> 01:31:54.540
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, go, go.

01:31:55.680 –> 01:31:56.460
Angela Bergmann: Bye everybody.

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