Jacob Stoops

#37: Martha van Berkel

Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we talk with Martha van Berkel, CEO and Co-Founder of SchemaApp, a service that empowers the Digital Marketer to own their schema markup strategy through to implementation without ever writing code or engaging with IT.

We talk about her background in mathematics and engineering (she also attended the MIT Sloan school of management). We also discuss how she spent almost 14 years at Cisco, what it’s like to be an innovator at an otherwise slow-moving, highly-bureaucratic company, and the circumstances that led to her going out on her own and eventually forming her own company with her husband.

In the news, we talk about Google’s recent broad core algorithm update and share our thoughts on how the industry reacts to algo updates as well as our own approaches.

And finally, we deep dive into structured data, how brands can use it, as well as what challenges SEOs face with schema and getting it implemented.

Also, follow Schema App on Twitter.

#36: Ian Howells

Episode Summary

We talk with Ian Howells, long-time SEO and one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank, which is one of the best private SEO communities in the world.

We discuss:

  • How he began building websites in high school as part of a class project
  • How his early experience led him to building affiliate websites and making money online at a very young age
  • We discuss his foray into marketing and optimization in the adult and online poker industries
  • How a federal law forced him to change his career arc, which eventually led on to various agency and in-house roles
  • The founding of Traffic Think Tank
  • What it’s like to run one of the most well-known and reputable private SEO communities
  • Coordinating the Traffic Think Tank Live conference
  • The news that Bing says 2020 will be the year where keyword research becomes obsolete (while Google says it isn’t)
  • The rise of DuckDuckGo
  • Deep dive into Affiliate Sites

And much more.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: All right, everybody. Welcome to the Page 2 Podcast I am your host Jacob stoops and I am here with Mr. Jeff, Louella Jeff. How’s it going?

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Jeff Louella: Going well how’s everyone doing out there.

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Jacob Stoops: They can’t answer you, Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: Ah, I was trying this time.

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Jacob Stoops: No.

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Jeff Louella: Not respond on Twitter. How you doing,

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Jacob Stoops: Yes, please respond on Twitter and we are joined by Mr Ian Howells. Ian, how are you doing?

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Ian Howells: Good man, Jacob. Jeff, thanks for thanks for having me on. We

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Jeff Louella: Are very

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Jacob Stoops: Very excited and I don’t want to bury the lead. But if you don’t know, Ian. He is the one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank. And we’ve already had one of his counterparts on I think about 10 months ago, Nick Eubanks who also

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Jacob Stoops: Founded Traffic Think Tank. They’ve got a lot of really awesome stuff going on there, which I’m sure that we’ll get into and then he and I believe you. You’re also, you also have a day job at a soft landing tree.

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Ian Howells: So I did previously. Up until the end of August of 2019 I was leading the the SEO team at lending tree.

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Ian Howells: Yep. Now just affiliate stuff consulting and Traffic Think Tank are kind of the three legs of the stool and

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Jacob Stoops: I had that in my notes and I completely glossed over it. We do take notes here.

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Ian Howells: Before we

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Jacob Stoops: Find people and then I just get on and I just messed them mess them all up or

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Jacob Stoops: In one case I butchered

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Jacob Stoops: Somebody somebody’s name.

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Jacob Stoops: Almost immediately, I believe that was Jamie, I called her out Jericho. It’s Alba Rico and she definitely called me on that.

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Jacob Stoops: Yet Lee, which was a little embarrassing.

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Ian Howells: I mean, it’s better to call better to call a name mispronunciation out early. Right.

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Ian Howells: Rather than it happening over and over and over again.

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Jacob Stoops: The whole thing. It’s like that episode of Friends were Chandler gets called Toby at his workplace and he never corrects them and then you Toby from there on for like six years.

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Jacob Stoops: And he anyways. So in today’s episode. For those of you that have listened, you’ll kind of know what’s coming for any first time listeners. Let me just tell you kind of what we’re going to do.

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Jacob Stoops: The hallmark of this show is kind of the origin stories of great SEOs SEO is not a very old industry and in our experience, nobody tends to get into

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Jacob Stoops: Especially if you’ve been in it for a while, into SEO on purpose. A lot of people come from other places. And we’re interested in figuring out

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Jacob Stoops: What are those other places, and how, how did how did people get into SEO in the first place, and what are their

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Jacob Stoops: What are their backgrounds and even more importantly, we’d like to talk about

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Jacob Stoops: Successes failures, what it’s like to be an SEO day to day. It’s kind of it can be kind of a grind and we like to kind of get deep on

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Jacob Stoops: What people experience on a day to day basis. So that’s kind of part one. Part two. And this is something that we’ve added in Season two is we like to

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Jacob Stoops: We like to talk about what’s what’s in the news kind of current events in the SEO world, which usually ends up with me just yelling about various SEO topics and ranting and complaining, but that’s it. That’s okay.

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Jacob Stoops: Jeff kind of runs runs that section and he kind of balances ME OUT HE’S KIND OF THE even keeled person and I just go off.

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Jeff Louella: Sometimes, AND I KNOW HOW TO TOSS THINGS UP TO YOU, TOO.

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Jacob Stoops: Well, Jeff, I want to, I want to hear just for one wants me being maybe the even keeled person and just being cool and you just

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Jacob Stoops: I want to know what you want to rant about at some point I want to see that.

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Jeff Louella: So all right, I will do some topics, the data Jeff will ramp.

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Jacob Stoops: And then the third, the third leg of the stool in our, in our episodes is typically a deep dive and today’s deep dive is going to be on affiliate sites.

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Jacob Stoops: Which we’re excited to talk about. So if you’re in the affiliate game or if you’re not in the affiliate game and you’re thinking about it. We’re going to deep dive into that topic at the towards the end of the episode so

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Jacob Stoops: Ian

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s jump into kind of the first phase, who are you, how did you get into SEO, what, what’s your story.

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Ian Howells: Cool. So, like you mentioned up top. Ian howls co founder and partner at trek think tank which the short version of that is a 700 plus now person community.

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Ian Howells: Community portion happens in Slack all of the educational kind of training material and resources are all within Traffic Think Tank calm. So think of like distilled you accept not five years out of date now.

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Ian Howells: Is the website portion and then the community. I think is really one of the the big strong

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Ian Howells: Assets for it because folks can ask questions get feedback on campaign ideas that they’re going to have more if you just get stuck on something that’s a good way to

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Ian Howells: Just kind of stop smashing your head against the wall, have a problem and get feedback from from other folks, kind of in real time. But in terms of

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Ian Howells: Getting started in the the industry. I built a website when I was in high school, my cousin and I actually started

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Ian Howells: What would be now called a blog, but then was not called a blog because at that point blogs were literally just

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Ian Howells: Like an online Diary of like what your day was about. So at that point we hated the word blog like rebelled against it completely because that sounded like

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Ian Howells: Stuff that like children, but would do. Right. And we were all a 15 at that point. So like we were obviously, way, way too cool for that.

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Ian Howells: So today would be called a blog started that in December of 99 when I was, I think, a freshman in high school. So, you know, like all cool kids in high school I was sitting around learning HTML.

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Ian Howells: So that was, that was fun, really good for your social life being the kid that you know is figuring out how to build websites but worked out long term so

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Ian Howells: That’s all right.

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Jeff Louella: I was the kid with the Commodore 64 so myself a little bit more, but we would trigger games on the bus.

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Ian Howells: So what’s funny is like I wish I went back that far. We didn’t have a computer in the house until 98 my parents got a gateway and they make splurged and went crazy and got like the six gig hard drive and the 64 Meg’s around like it was

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Ian Howells: It was a dream at that

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Ian Howells: But I built the site with my cousin as a hobby really because other guys in high school, so I took art.

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Ian Howells: In high school, and there were juniors and seniors in my class because like art was just an elective it wasn’t part of a track or whatever.

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Ian Howells: And these guys had built their own website and they were hilarious and it was basically like online short skit type things written out

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Ian Howells: And I wanted to be a part of it. But I was this like dumb freshman. So I was like, well, screw it like we can just make our own. So we built a website and just run it as a hobby for like two years and then I was in

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Ian Howells: Some webmaster forum. I can’t, I can’t remember which one it was. But one of the guys that were on there. This guy, Aaron.

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Ian Howells: He has since legally changed his name to sunshine Megatron he he built t shirt hell calm.

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Ian Howells: And T shirt hell had an affiliate program. And so he painted a bunch of people from the forum and was like, hey, do you want to join my affiliate program.

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Ian Howells: Was like, I have no idea what that is, but maybe so he gave me like the 92nd elevator pitch of what affiliate marketing was. It was basically like just make an account. I’ll give you a wink.

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Ian Howells: Put the link out to your website, if somebody clicks through that and buys a t shirt. I’ll give you five bucks for each shirt that they buy it was like, well, you can make money on the internet like i can i can make money for my website. Tell me more.

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Ian Howells: Well,

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Jacob Stoops: Not only could you make money, you basically had a person with the name of a transformer

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Ian Howells: Not yet. But he was still just Aaron at that point he is a crazy person. I don’t know if he’s like in a bunker somewhere if he is still accessible that you’d be

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Ian Howells: Talk to him but interesting life story, I’m sure. But this was in 2001 so like for two years just built a website as a hobby and

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Ian Howells: That was kind of it and then 2001 was introduced to this whole affiliate thing. And I was like, Okay, this will be great. So put some banners on the site.

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Ian Howells: First month sell like 30 T shirts and make 150 bucks. And I was like, Oh damn, this is amazing because at this point I’m 17 right so the option is either work every Saturday for the like.

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Ian Howells: $5 and 25 cents an hour. I think that minimum wage was at that point, or just screw around on the internet and make the same amount of money each month. I was like, this is beautiful.

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Ian Howells: And then the second month hats and we sell like three t shirts. And then the third month hits and we don’t sell any news like ah shit.

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Ian Howells: Okay, so turn. Turns out we have like the same hundred to 200 visitors to the website every single day. So by month three of promoting literally one thing everyone saw it already. So like if they were going to buy one of those T shirts, they already bought it and we were done.

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Ian Howells: So then it was like okay well I need a lot of traffic and I need a lot of new traffic. And if you ask any 17 year old guy on the internet. What gets a lot of traffic on the web is answers probably going to be the same. It was an adult websites will will say to use the

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Jacob Stoops: Horn, it’s for

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Ian Howells: Clean important. Yeah, yeah, it’s probably part

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Bronze

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Ian Howells: So that it was like Okay, so here’s how dumb. I was, I had a shared hosting account that was running me like 20 or 30 bucks a month at that point because hosting this still pricey.

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Ian Howells: And I go to one adult site, they don’t even I think they still exist, but they’re not really a thing anymore. They were called T GPS thumbnail gallery posts.

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Ian Howells: Which was basically a big just text list and every day, there’d be like 50 or 100 new links and it’d be like an eight word description and you would click through.

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Ian Howells: And then all of the most of the listings were like third party external people sites and you would build a single page photo gallery with like

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Ian Howells: 10 to 15 thumbnails and then two or three calls to action to try and push people to a pay site to get them to sign up is that the short version of how it worked.

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Ian Howells: Here’s how idiotic. I was, I went to one tip there were two big ones that I knew about through, you know, recreational internet usage, let’s say,

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Ian Howells: I went to the first big one that I know about click through to one of the galleries downloaded all the photos built my own gallery and submitted it to the second

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Ian Howells: Big tip site that I knew about. And instead of pushing an adult site with adult content. I tried to sell them offensive T shirts from t shirt health so

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Ian Howells: Total copyright infringement, because I just stole, I had no right to use those images whatsoever just downloaded them and through them back up on a new page.

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Ian Howells: And then took people that were looking for pictures of naked women, and then said, hey, want to buy a t shirt. So that was about as well as you would expect.

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Ian Howells: To go

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Jacob Stoops: It’s a logical jump, I guess.

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Ian Howells: Right. Because, because I didn’t even like it had not even occurred to me yet that like affiliate programs existed for other things I just knew about this one. So when you only have a hammer.

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Ian Howells: Everything looks like a nail. So I was like, well, okay, I’ll just get a bunch of traffic to look at this banner and surely someone will buy a t shirt.

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Ian Howells: Turns out, no and turns out a small shared hosting account cannot withstand like 70,000 visits in a 24 hour period, at least at that point.

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Ian Howells: So my hosting crashes, the host wasn’t a huge host. So I have the actual guy who owns the company emailing me basically saying like, what the hell are you doing

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Ian Howells: So that was great. A nice bandwidth overcharged that I’ve been had to come up with. But that was my first kind of exposure to

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Ian Howells: Holy crap. There’s way more traffic than, like, I realized, one could get to there were like 70,000 people in a day before the hosting crash. So like it could have been over 100 for all I know.

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Ian Howells: And then, you know, kind of the head smacking like maybe I should try and sell somebody. The thing that they are very clearly looking for not trying to divert them to another. So it was a good lesson, even though it was like a $200 bandwidth bill that I had to

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Jeff Louella: Pay for

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Ian Howells: Which one, you’re 17 is not, you know, super, super fun.

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Jacob Stoops: I think the question that I wanted. So how long did you stay in the in the porn game in terms of, like, working, working on the those types of sites.

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Ian Howells: Until I met my now wife in 2005 okay so that’s so almost four years, four years, yep.

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Jacob Stoops: So you’re 17 at the time and you

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Ended

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Jacob Stoops: The

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Jacob Stoops: The only thing I can imagine is a lot of giggling

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Jacob Stoops: And not only that,

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Ian Howells: The novelty wears off pretty quick.

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Jacob Stoops: Well, that’s what I was gonna ask one. What’s it

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Jacob Stoops: What is it like having never like done work for a porn site. I know that there are

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Jacob Stoops: People that do that. And then, especially being that young, how the hell did you explain that to your parents or did you

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Ian Howells: So they knew I was running websites because at the time. I still had to literally like use my mom’s credit card to buy domains.

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Ian Howells: Because I’m 70 like I didn’t

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Ian Howells: So I would literally give her cash and then she would punch her credit card number into I.

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Ian Howells: I can’t remember in my domain GoDaddy. I can’t remember the first place I bought a domain.

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Ian Howells: But they were like $30 a year at the time, like when I first bought a domain, like now it’s a joke it like there’s

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Ian Howells: Some deal. These are like a buck 99 or 99 cents. It’s not ones you want, but still

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Ian Howells: Like at that point 30 bucks a year for your domain plus 20 or 30 bucks a month for hosting like kind of bar was was a lot higher.

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Ian Howells: And so they knew that like this was a thing. And mostly about the hobby site that was that I was running with my cousin until check started showing up at the house and then it was like, what, what the hell is this

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Ian Howells: Yeah, about that. So I think they were thankfully they were super cool about it. They were

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Ian Howells: I guess a good point of context here when I was 17 my parents were 35 and 36 they were 18 and 19 when they had me

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Ian Howells: So they were my age now basically so me having a 17 year old kid. So they still remembered I guess the point is they still remembered kind of being a 17 or 18 year old because

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Ian Howells: They were like 15 months away from accidentally getting pregnant with yours truly. So of all the things that I could be getting into, I think, was their

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Ian Howells: Perspective. This was like that that big of a deal like okay if you turn a 17 year old kid loose with a cable internet connection. He’s probably going to look at porn. Anyway, like screw and if he’s going to make money off of it like it’s not illegal, like what the hell.

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Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: So where did you go from there.

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Ian Howells: So did the adult thing for a while. A big regret is that I did not push harder on that front. Right. Because once I got to the point where I was making a few hundred dollars a month.

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Ian Howells: I then just got super lazy like being a kid still at that point, like I didn’t have a concept of hey, if you work really hard.

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Ian Howells: And do a lot of effort into this like this can become like a big, full time income level type situation.

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Ian Howells: Like I just had no awareness of the fact that that was even possible, right. I’m like 18 months removed from. Oh my god, you can make money on the internet.

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Ian Howells: So the fact that, like this could be the way somebody supports themselves full time.

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Ian Howells: Just didn’t even seem like a plausible thing. So I would work to the point where I was making like six or 800 bucks a month.

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Ian Howells: And then we’re just kind of let it coast and then if like if money started falling off, I’d build a couple more pages or free sites at that time they were called

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Ian Howells: And get it back to the point where it was up in that six $800 range again and then like repeat just over and over and over again because

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Ian Howells: You know, as long as I was buying video games. And then in college like beer money like

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Ian Howells: It didn’t, you know, it didn’t seem like a pressing thing to you know forgo going out for the night to sit at home and you know Peck away and dream Weaver and make new new pages look. What is the quote night in

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Jacob Stoops: The movie The Social Network. I feel like it’s Justin Timberlake character that that says something to the effect of, you know, what’s cool you think or something like you think a million dollars is cool. Let me tell you what’s really cool a billion dollars.

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Jacob Stoops: If you needed that mindset.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, I

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Ian Howells: Did not did not have that, I guess, unfortunately, so

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Ian Howells: I kind of plugged away on that for you know, while until 2005 when I met my wife ended up selling the the few sites that I had that were worth selling at that point.

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Ian Howells: The ones that had kind of their own traffic and wasn’t just the hamster wheel of like submit a page get listed get traffic. Three days later, it’s gone. And you just kind of repeat

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Ian Howells: And moved from the adult industry into online poker. So, you know, again, just sticking with like vice marketing, I guess, and going with stuff that

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Ian Howells: I knew from my own internet usage, let’s say, and stuff that had attractive payouts right because the

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Ian Howells: The attractive thing about the adult industry was a a sign up, it’d be worth anywhere from 30 to $50 one time CPA and there was just

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Ian Howells: an absurd abundance of traffic to be had. Right. So, like, getting to the point where you’re doing like I said that six $800 a month level was not hard, like I did not know anything, and was doing that as like a 17 1819 year old kid.

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Ian Howells: So went from that to online poker only really pushed an online poker for like a year because in I think it was October of 2006 the safe port act passes and online gambling in the US, almost disappears overnight.

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Ian Howells: Because all the major credit card processors lose the ability to

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Ian Howells: Run charges for these gambling sites. So I had a good year primarily promoting poker room calm the big draw. There was, it was now $100 like if you got a real money.

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Ian Howells: Verified deposit player you get 100 bucks so started out really simple and kind of scam me were like the weekly poker game that me and my friends did on Tuesday.

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Ian Howells: I just got the other nine guys to sign up through my affiliate link and then it was like, okay, sign up

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Ian Howells: And then get on aim and let me know your name in poker room, and then we’ll start a heads up match and I will just intentionally lose $50 to you.

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Ian Howells: And we’ll call it. Even so, like you sign up for me. I got 100 bucks. I’ll purposely dump 50 bucks to you in game because we can just talk on AIM about like

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Ian Howells: What cards we have and figure out how to how to make this work. So like a a in incentivize traffic, I guess, through real life and then just started building out

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Ian Howells: Fairly simple sites through recounting what I actually did was just word count games that I would actually play online and made like a online poker blog basically just talking about playing online and then having poker room calm ads all the hell over the place.

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Ian Howells: But only got to do that for like a year, which is unfortunate because hundred dollar payouts were really good and in like 2005 2004 or five, six, like right after

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Ian Howells: Chris moneymaker basically made online poker exploded in popularity, there was kind of lots of traffic and referrals to go around.

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Ian Howells: But then it all disappears overnight because of a bill that the Senate passes so I’m near the tail end of college. At this point, I was on the five year plan.

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Ian Howells: I majored in graphic design and I figured like, hey, I can just like I’m already building websites for myself, like maybe I can just get a job building websites for other people. So that’s how I ended up picking graphic design as my

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Ian Howells: As my major. Again, it did not occur to me that, like, oh, I could just work for myself or I can just build sites that that earn money.

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Ian Howells: And so I’m in what was supposed to be my last year of college turned out to be year year four of five.

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Ian Howells: And it just, you know, the bottom falls out, like the all the sites I have are now completely worthless. Nobody will want to buy them because they can’t monetize the traffic either

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Ian Howells: So that kind of reinforced for me that, like, yeah, maybe this whole

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Ian Howells: You know, trying to make money on the internet thing, definitely. It’s not a thing that you should do as your attempt at full time income because

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Ian Howells: Stuff like this could happen where one day you just wake up and because of something that has nothing to do with you all your money is just gone.

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Ian Howells: So the following year in 2007 I am getting ready to

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Ian Howells: Coming into college and as a graphic design, Major, you have to do a senior show with like your art portfolio. Right, so I need a printer.

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Ian Howells: Locally to print all my stuff. And so I pull out the Yellow Book, like the physical Yellow Book. I don’t know if you’re our younger listeners here. Oh remember what the hell it was but there used to be these books that were like 300 pages and had phone numbers for everybody.

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Oh, yeah.

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Ian Howells: So I’m flipping through the Yellow Pages looking for a printer and I come across a listing for pepper jam Internet marketing in Wilkes barre Pennsylvania and I’m 20 minutes north of Wilkes barre in Scranton PA at this point.

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Ian Howells: And I was like, What the hell, there’s an internet marketing company in Wilkes Barre, so then that leads me to their website, it was hilarious. The bad. It’s a super like 19th looking website if you go through the Internet Archive and look at what pepper jam calm, but I think it was

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Ian Howells: Pepper jam search

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Ian Howells: Com. At that point, looks like in like 2007 but

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Ian Howells: I ended up emailing the VP of search can moan with just like, hey,

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Ian Howells: I mean, how’s here’s some stuff that I’ve done, and just talk about like selling subscriptions to porn sites and poker online, not even thinking for a minute that like, hey, maybe this is kind of weird and like that and not the way to get a response from like an actual company doing

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Ian Howells: Internet marketing.

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Ian Howells: Turns out, though it was a great idea because they later told me like that was the reason that he answered the cold.

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Ian Howells: Email was like, Oh, somebody has built affiliate websites before and like gotten traffic through search and monetized it

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Ian Howells: And so had I not mentioned it, and was just like, oh, I’m a local college student at Mary, would I was wondering if there were internships or whatever he probably would have completely ignored me

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Ian Howells: But that got me a phone interview in person interview then internship my last semester of college and then college graduation was a Sunday that Monday I started at pepper jam full time.

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Ian Howells: Six months later I was running the SEO team at pepper jam in fairness, it didn’t even really exist when I got there was basically can the BP in one writer.

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Ian Howells: So he looked at it, it’s like, Okay, great. Here’s somebody that knows SEO like let me just dump this chunk of work off on him and he can run with it.

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Ian Howells: Short version three years later pepper jam cells to gtsi commerce down in Philadelphia. That’s where I meet Mr. The Willa. And my boss for like the nine minutes that he stuck around

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Jeff Louella: And though that was interesting times. I mean, Pepper jam. When we we bought

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Jeff Louella: We bought pepper jam for its affiliate network. Yep. And then it was interesting. And then like learning when we peel back some of the skins on the onion, see what’s behind there there was some fun things we found, but

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Ian Howells: Oh, it was garbage.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, I think they had, like, once they got in there like crap.

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Jeff Louella: We bought, but it’s still around today and it seems like it’s it’s gotten better. But I remember just getting I come into the office and my boss at the time was just like

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Jeff Louella: Hey, we bought a company and they have an SEO team just drive up there and meet them and see see who you want to you know who you like up there and things like that so

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Jeff Louella: Me and Bill Sebald drove up there. I don’t know if you remember that day, but it was kind of it was fun. I think it was meet you, Eric and Todd.

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Jeff Louella: I think that was really the three they might have been someone else or two, but no, it was, it was interesting time and right there. Like, I think we all got kind of got along really well and

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Jeff Louella: And after that, you kind of taught me some things about affiliates and I think we use some or at least I used I’ll say some auto blogging tools that

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Jeff Louella: Got me a little bit of money that I learned I was because I always want to learn to kind of the

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Jeff Louella: The darker side of SEO. And at that time I was I was still somewhat newer I was a developer who moved into SEO when I was at Razorfish, and then right my second job was at GSA and you will learn that a deal size network. He couldn’t do much on

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Jeff Louella: The and every time I would go to a client. So you have to fix this, this and this and they’re like, well, we can’t because our platform is bad.

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Ian Howells: And by the way, our platforms you

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, exactly.

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Ian Howells: slightly awkward.

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Jeff Louella: So that that was always an issue there. But we, but yeah. When I got to meet you at that point it was, it was awesome. And then

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Jeff Louella: I just, you know, was hitting my head against the wall bunch of times there and you had some falling outs between me and some of the

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Jeff Louella: I’ll say I was in a weird position because I wasn’t leadership, but I reported all to the like the major leadership there.

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Jeff Louella: But then with the people in my life I was the only one who wasn’t like a VP or director level with all in all, the VP meetings. And then when I would go back to everyone who was like the same level as me. They wouldn’t want to talk to me because I thought I was a snitch.

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Ian Howells: The plant the leadership.

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Jeff Louella: It.

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Jeff Louella: Was I was caught out that one time in a meeting. They said, like when I was in there like they thought I was the leadership, like a snitch on the leadership. And I’m like, I’m the opposite of that. Like, I’ll tell you everything they’re doing

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Jeff Louella: It but uh

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Awkward.

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Ian Howells: Guys, don’t get me wrong, I’m a terrible employee. I’m not helping them.

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Jeff Louella: And those meetings were just all insane anyway. But, so I would go through things and eventually I just told Bill as I go. I had to leave.

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Jeff Louella: And at that point, they decided that they were going to make be part of the leadership and like, Well, no, that’s not like I’m already made my decision.

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Jeff Louella: But the fun part was I had to the person who was in charge of the platform come to me because I always complained him about how bad the platform was

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Jeff Louella: So like they were coming out with like platform 11 or something and he they tried to get me to stay and become part of the platform team to make the platform or SEO friendly.

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Jeff Louella: Because that was always my plan was like you make the platform better every client, we have on it is better. Why are we trying to sell our clients SEO when we can fix our platform. And we got a percentage of all sales. We could have made it better.

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Jeff Louella: Than I heard like that platform didn’t really do very well and then eBay bought everybody and then it became like, then it was like an interesting I saw how they merge everything packaged it like fanatics com came out from that and then

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Ian Howells: Man, Michael Rubin is like, just like God damn. I don’t know how the hell he talked a bay and the letting him keep fanatics and the official league stores out of that deal and still walked away with two two or two 4 billion.

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Ian Howells: Amazing.

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Jeff Louella: And I see, I’m a big Sixers fan.

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Jeff Louella: And I see him sitting on the sidelines and next to like Allen Iverson and Meek Mill’s and I’m just like,

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Jeff Louella: Not bad. Not a bad job because, I mean, I’ve got, I had a couple meetings with him, where I got the pitch and he was

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Jeff Louella: He’s a smart dude. He was very energetic, you know, and I was great. But it was interesting time where it’s like, once he sold them like

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Jeff Louella: Hey, you started some sneakers out of the back of his mom’s car is kind of like a Amazon story in a way, you know, not as big, right. He’s not millionaire, but at the same time.

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Ian Howells: Thanks. All right, I think.

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Jeff Louella: For billions. Not too bad.

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Jeff Louella: You know and and become a minority owner of the Sixers and running.

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Ian Howells: fanatics and still

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Ian Howells: crushing it just that even if he had nothing else in the past. Just that alone like he’s

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Jeff Louella: Good at anything by rue La La are also some of those others flash sale site.

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Ian Howells: Yeah, real law was rolled in.

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Ian Howells: Mostly for the the email. We bought we being gtsi while I was there CLEAR SAILING so order attribution company out of Ohio. I think in like

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Jeff Louella: I was

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Ian Howells: Out in a lemon

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Jeff Louella: I was the person to introduce them all.

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Jeff Louella: Because I was a I was friends with some people over CLEAR SAILING and they asked me to introduce them to the analytics team.

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Jeff Louella: I was hoping I got a kick, but

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Jeff Louella: I left before that even like fully materialized but

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Ian Howells: But no, that was I guess just to complete kind of the, the career arc overview here gtsi

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Ian Howells: Jeff left very shortly after I got there, Bill Sebald was running the team. Start of 2011 bill Sebald decides he’s had enough. And he gets out of there. So then the hot potato goes to me run the SEO team inside there.

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Ian Howells: Jeff and I were talking before we started recording here. It had like 19 names because they kept hired new creative directors and day one every creative director wanted to rebrand the agency.

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Ian Howells: Eventually eBay buys the thing I lose interest pretty rapidly after we become part of eBay, like HR turned into, literally, here’s a phone number for a call center in Utah.

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Ian Howells: Call them if you need anything, right, like when you have that many employees, like, yeah, you’re not going to have big HR teams in each office, it would be crazy. So it makes sense, but

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Ian Howells: Wasn’t wasn’t for me and to 2012 end up going moving down to Charlotte, North Carolina, where I still am to work at Red ventures.

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Ian Howells: Ran, one of the the SEO teams in there until 2016 left RV in 2016 to head up the SEO team at lending tree and did that from 16 until

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Ian Howells: August of 2019 like I like I mentioned briefly before and now in the meantime affiliate stuff consulting launch Traffic Think Tank two years in a couple months ago now.

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Ian Howells: So always had kind of stuff going on outside of the main full time job. But that’s kind of the

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Ian Howells: The rough shape of the full time work with small agency with pepper jam get bought by a bigger agency in the form of gtsi eBay nine other different names.

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Ian Howells: In house to red ventures, which was a really interesting blend of in house and agency, because at that point.

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Ian Howells: RV didn’t really own their own website properties. It was licensed like it would be branded domains for DirecTV or ADT

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Ian Howells: So it was in partnership with large companies. So we were kind of an affiliate, but kind of in house because all the dev and tech and everything happened internally.

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Ian Howells: And then in house at back to a public company in house a lending tree and kind of getting reacquainted with the pros and cons of being at a large public co with, you know, the pros being most things comp related and the cons being the general speed at which things can get done.

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lack thereof.

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Jacob Stoops: So let’s talk about Traffic Think Tank, you guys are two plus years into that. Now, what led to that. Like what’s behind the idea. What’s it like today in terms of running that

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Ian Howells: Yeah, I think what led to it really Eubanks So Nick, did traffic thing tag. The one I guess you would call it on his own. So it was

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Ian Howells: Similar and very different at the same time. So he limited to I think 12 people but higher price point. It was 500 bucks a month.

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Ian Howells: But you had to sign up for the year. So basically he got 12 people to sign on for six grand

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Ian Howells: And then it was a Facebook group at that point. So like a 13 person Facebook group. So these 12 people and Nick. So, a lot more

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Ian Howells: Kind of deeper one on one individual consultation, because there’s only 12 people right like that’s a decently manageable.

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Ian Howells: Number to kind of go more in depth with with every single person. And part of what he did was each month he would do one like guest webinar on zoom right basically just

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Ian Howells: People, he knew from the industry through his own network would just ask, like, Hey, would you, would you be cool with coming on and doing a webinar for these folks.

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Ian Howells: He bought me some really good mine in exchange for doing it, which I didn’t know what was gonna happen when I said yes but like was a very nice Park afterward.

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Ian Howells: So I had done a webinar for him. And then he was starting to kind of come to the end of the 12 months, I think it was in like month nine or something.

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Ian Howells: And I had just made like a very offhandedly like

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Ian Howells: Hey, if you’re going to do TGT again like let me know if you know there’s a way for me to get involved or whatever, like something benign and kind of off the cuff. I had no Nick at that point.

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Ian Howells: Nick and I met into late 2010 or early 2011 through the Philadelphia SEO meetup SEO grill, which was phenomenal and like

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Ian Howells: Just an absurd roster of people. So we can go into that in a minute to so I didn’t know Nick for several years at this point. So just kind of threw that offer out there like, hey, if you’re looking to do more with this thing. Let me know.

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Ian Howells: And he had gotten back and was like, actually. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot. Like, I think the model makes sense.

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Ian Howells: If it scales up like I think we could scale up membership and bring down the price. So it’s not like you got to sign up for six grand for a year, right off the bat.

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Ian Howells: And kind of reach more people because at that point, you know, and I’m talking about like a history. It’s two years and four months ago, or whenever

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Ian Howells: You think about SEO book in that community kind of getting shuttered because Aaron had decided that he was going to kind of step back from doing that.

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Ian Howells: So that left kind of a void where. Okay, there was a paid SEO forum that ran. I think it was 99 bucks a month. So like not a in substantial price point, like a good gate to make sure that everybody in there was serious, so that it kind of left a void, and then

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Ian Howells: The mas community at that point was in a

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Ian Howells: Let’s call it a bit of turmoil. Right. Eventually, like they end up having to do layoffs and all that stuff that’s part of mothers history now that we don’t have to go into. But there was generally a

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Ian Howells: A lack of I think outside of Twitter but Twitter is very noisy and chaotic. There wasn’t a great like single point of community at least that I was aware of

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Ian Howells: So that felt like

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Ian Howells: To nick that felt like a big opportunity and I was less certain.

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Ian Howells: Matthew Howells-Barby, same kind of general opinion he did a big LinkedIn post about kind of the, the formation of traffic think tank where he says, much the same thing that like he wasn’t as confident as Nick was

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Ian Howells: You had Nick on already. I think one of the things that became probably very clear within the first few minutes of talking to him is that super high energy will make decisions quickly and then once he decides he’s going to do a thing like he’s he’s going to do the damn thing.

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Ian Howells: So he was kind of more bullish on it. I was like, maybe we’ll get 100 members like we can probably get 100 people that are serious enough that they’ll pay 99 bucks a month to join the thing

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Ian Howells: And I guess short story long. It went over a lot better than I initially thought. And it wasn’t until like month three where it was like oh shit like this could be

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Ian Howells: Like this could be a real thing. Like there is more appetite for this than I thought. I think what I discounted incorrectly. In the beginning was the

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Ian Howells: Amount of people that are individual affiliates and are just kind of like sitting in a home office by themselves all day grinding away doing their thing.

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Ian Howells: And people that are like the one online marketing person at their company right like digital is this one person and nobody else in the company knows what the hell they do.

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Ian Howells: They don’t have anybody to bounce ideas off of because again, nobody knows what the hell they’re doing all day and I think I just had a general lack of awareness of how many people find themselves in that situation. And I feel like that’s a need that we ended up filling

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Ian Howells: Hopefully, very well. So

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Jacob Stoops: One thing that occurred to me especially when you mentioned initially. Now, obviously, it’s much lower. Now it’s that initial $6,000 price point.

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Jacob Stoops: And I guess for for me thinking about like fine running that probably Nick being a more confident person than I would be like, Nope, I got this. Is that a lot of money to ask for people and it’s like

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Jacob Stoops: How do you bring enough value to justify somebody paying you that much money with with what you guys are doing that would feel like a lot of pressure.

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Jacob Stoops: Pressure to me. And I just wonder, how do you guys kind of manage that on ongoing in terms of making sure that the value is is there for the for the members.

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Ian Howells: So in the the first iteration. And again, this was 100% next on semi speculating here, but I’m fairly confident, how he basically positioned. It was like

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Ian Howells: Almost like your pre buying consulting time with him right so like it was the original 12 members if I’m remembering correctly. We’re all

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Ian Howells: people that own their own econ business or Legion business right like it wasn’t affiliates. It wasn’t the one full time marketing person at a company. It was the owner of a very small digital company.

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Ian Howells: That basically viewed this as I am purchasing $6,000 worth of strategy consulting from this person who knows what they’re doing.

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Ian Howells: I have a junior person or I can do like I have execution figured out what I need is guidance to make sure that I’m not shooting myself in the foot and that I’m doing smart things, I think, was basically the the rough

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Ian Howells: Outline of positioning there, which in that light, it makes sense, right, because if you think about an hourly SEO consulting right 500 bucks a month is a joke right so

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Ian Howells: I think with that angle it made sense. And then for him. I think attractive 12 people same 12 people, you get to go pretty deep with everybody. So you can kind of have more meaningful connections and results.

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Ian Howells: But now for us. I think the the responsibility part is interesting, I think, as the community has gotten bigger

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Ian Howells: We’ve gotten less and less reliant on me, Nick and Matt right because like first 50 members like

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Ian Howells: Munich and Matt one of us had to answer every single question that came in and slack. And I think as the community has grown

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Ian Howells: It’s now gotten to a point where, by the time I see a question come in, there’ll be three or four answers in a thread already from other people who

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Ian Howells: All know you know what they’re what they’re talking about every once in a while they’ll be like an idea for another whatever that will come in and be like, and maybe

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Ian Howells: Maybe don’t do that exactly but like Core Kernel of the idea is good. Like I would do XYZ

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Ian Howells: And so I think the the kind of self reinforcing aspect of the Community has been super exciting to watch kind of take take shape and continue to grow.

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Ian Howells: But it is. I think it is a responsibility on us to make sure that we continue to produce you know stuff that’s

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Ian Howells: Timely and useful in a variety of situations. I think that’s probably the hard part is trying to make sure that you’re creating guidance and resources that is

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Ian Howells: That are applicable to people in a variety of roles, because we have

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Ian Howells: Members in I think 21 of the 24 time zones working on every industry, you could imagine, right. So you have to try and make sure that you’re really hitting the, the core

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Ian Howells: Of a concept or idea and make sure that it’s actually useful for the community at large. And then the other piece is just ensuring that we continue to tap

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Ian Howells: Other experts in the community come on and talk about the stuff that they’re good at, right. So like having Hamlet. Come on.

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Ian Howells: And do a Python webinar was like extremely useful for a bunch of folks so we try and make sure that

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Ian Howells: You know we we keep our finger on the pulse of what what sort of stuff does the community want and then go out and see, okay, if that’s not like I can’t write Python to save my goddamn life. So when it’s something that like we can’t do go find somebody who can and bring him on so

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Jacob Stoops: Last question I want to ask in it’s not as much of a question is more of like, what’s it like in before we move on to the news.

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Jacob Stoops: You guys are. I think it’s your second event Traffic Think Tank live, which by the way it is. On May 16, it is not in Philadelphia. It’s in Miami.

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Jacob Stoops: For and I’m going to give you a quick promo for non members. It’s $349 for members traffic thing take members. It’s $149 for a ticket. So go bye bye bye attend attend attend, but I want to know. And I asked, Nick, the same question. What’s it like to put on an event.

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Ian Howells: Though was dumb. It was like it was so much more like when you talk like I’ve said a few times. Like my general lack of awareness like

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Ian Howells: I think all three of us were inflicted with that on this one. It was like, Oh, how much work. Can it be into a one day conference, like what could possibly be involved in this. Turns out there’s a dumb amount of work involved in running a conference we did the first one by ourselves.

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Ian Howells: Mistake. I don’t know. It was good that we did it because we realized very quickly. Like, how much is actually involved and how

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Ian Howells: Like, you should just hire a professional. If you’re gonna throw an event like just hire an event planner. And so we had

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Ian Howells: Yeah, it was hectic. So like literally 10 minutes before registration started the morning of the conference.

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Ian Howells: We were still working with the AV guy from the Hilton to try and get us to the point where slides would project onto the screen like

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Ian Howells: Everything was just going wrong like anything that could go wrong went wrong, like it was a good kind of intro, you know, kick in the face for

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Ian Howells: For running an event. But now, you know, thankfully, it still went over fine the presenters, all you know stepped up and delivered and talks were really good getting

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Ian Howells: I think the really great thing was getting all of these people that are used to interacting and slack together in person was awesome, right, because now all of a sudden

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Ian Howells: You have all these conversations happening where then light bulbs are going off, like, Oh, you’re a bubble. Like I recognize your, you know, Avatar and whatever, like you have all these folks who were talking online.

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Ian Howells: Now, getting to meet in person. So that was, that was awesome. And then this year.

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Ian Howells: Version we hired an event planning company they had done one of the earlier mas cons. So not only used to event planning, but also for our particular industry.

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Ian Howells: And that is worth every single penny that a good event planner will charge you because there’s so much stuff that we just had no idea about that she is just breezing through and it makes life a million times easier.

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Jacob Stoops: I feel like it probably gives you guys more of an opportunity to focus on the the content in the in the speakers and the and the quality and not worry about the minutia.

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Ian Howells: And that’s basically our only job this time around, which is great that we don’t have to get on the phone and talk about like Wi Fi connectivity in the room and chair covers and nonsense like that.

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Jacob Stoops: was awful. It’s like when you get married, you have to think about things like paying half people cut your cake for you or just

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Jacob Stoops: God

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Jeff Louella: It was a wedding planner.

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Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly.

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Ian Howells: Right, same, same idea you

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Jeff Louella: Know, I mean, it’s funny, thinking of the same way. So I used to run a homebrew club and we started off and it was

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Jeff Louella: Kind of out of just wanting to meet people in the industry. Next thing I know, we have like 300 members and like, I’m just, I ain’t got overwhelming for me to an extent, especially since I at that time recently had twins.

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Jeff Louella: Which, you know, adds a little, you know, cramped to going okay I’m going out drinking from a with a bunch of guys

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Jacob Stoops: With my kids.

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Jeff Louella: But, uh, but it was like everything they’re just setting it up. And that was just like one night a month and like I

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Jeff Louella: But I always did it kind of like this podcast right we we always wanted to have a good guest. So I was always trying to get like head brewers for all the local breweries and in Philadelphia, that time.

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Jeff Louella: Which there were a bunch and we would come in. We’ve talked about brewing have them like how that kind of like this podcast, how they got into it because

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Jeff Louella: As a home brewer, like a lot of people have dreams that open up their own brewery one day and real brewers will talk you out of it. They’re like, hey, do you want to be.

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Jeff Louella: Do you want to actually be a janitor because 99% where you are when you’re abroad because brewing beer is 5% of actually owning a brewery so

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Jeff Louella: But it was interesting that way. And I always want to being part of SEO grill.

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Jeff Louella: Like I kind of now being in Atlanta. Like, we really don’t have that close connection and I’d love to be able to like build one down here and I just know the amount of work. It’s going to take

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Jeff Louella: And, and, you know, I couldn’t imagine trying to actually have like 5000 people come in for a conference and how much work that actually takes

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Ian Howells: Yeah, it’s

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Ian Howells: It’s funny, like the

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Ian Howells: The finding good speakers and getting people to come and talk and like the logistics of that actually isn’t hard. The hardest part is when you get down to like we can have five

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Ian Howells: Who are the five people that we think are going to get on stage and like deliver something new that hasn’t been rehashed at 50 other conferences already right and so

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Ian Howells: And that’s the like the hard part on the, the speaker side, right, I think, thankfully, we’re in a community where like, generally, people are looking to

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Ian Howells: To share and talk about the stuff that they we, you know, have learned over the years, I think, you know, Nick Matt and I fortunate that we’re connected to

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Ian Howells: Folks like Jon Cooper, who generally don’t do the conference speaking thing like he’s not out there that’s an accent se es every season, you know, given it is same presentation over and over again.

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Ian Howells: But when we hit him up and we’re like, hey, we’re bringing a conference basically to your backyard, you’d like two hours away. Do you want to come speak like he’ll say yes and come to it.

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Ian Howells: So I think we’re

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Ian Howells: fortunate in that respect to it’s really just all the the minutia of like the actual logistical of event planning portion of it. That’s the hard part. And like I said, hiring a pro to take that weight off of our shoulders is

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Ian Howells: Amazing.

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It’s awesome.

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Jacob Stoops: So Jeff, what’s

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Jeff Louella: Cool. So it wasn’t really any major I’m going to say news is sweet, but there’s a bunch of little things. And a lot of times you know NEWS TODAY IS LIKE WHEN JOHN MUELLER says something

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Jeff Louella: So there was a lot of that because of his, his little town hall things that he runs, there were. So one of the big things.

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Jeff Louella: Was, you know, search engines get as search engines get better at intent, he basically said like keyword research is not going to go away, which

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Jeff Louella: You know, I look at it all as as much as Google comes out with Burt and all these different machine learnings. It is really based off the data that you’re giving it and that data is content.

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Jeff Louella: And, you know, knowing what search engines. You know what people are typing. It’s still always going to be important.

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Jeff Louella: And even I know like having different affiliate sites out there like and being very nice like

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Jeff Louella: Doing that keyword research are doing that, like research and gentleness, a keyword in an industry is ultra important to be able to

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Jeff Louella: Like if you’re going to start a site on something where no one is searching. There’s no nothing about it. Like, what’s the point of doing that right so so research is super important. I don’t know. I mean, I guess that it’s probably not much to go deeper into that one. But it seems like

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Jacob Stoops: This is where a yellow, yellow about things. So, so if you’re looking at. And this is an article on search engine roundtable THIS WEEK FROM WHAT IS IT THE 10th. It’s from yesterday. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: This so John’s response didn’t just come out of the blue. Right. It came in response because it’s

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Jacob Stoops: Beginning of 2020 so everybody’s making their big 2020 predictions. I’m Rick debut. Debut I doubt i’m pronouncing his name wrong and I’m and I’m going to go on record as saying that

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Jacob Stoops: This guy is probably way smarter than me. So maybe I have no fucking clue what I’m talking about. But he is. He is the person in charge of beings overall course search team and he is has essentially predicted predicted that this is the year that keyword research becomes obsolete.

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Jeff Louella: Which it’s coming.

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Jacob Stoops: And it’s just funny. The difference between what people have been you’re saying what people Google are saying and I agree with Jeff and I will say there. I wish there would be more times where we have disagreements, but we seem to be like

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand how researching and understanding if the data is available, what people are searching for when that becomes obsolete, like, in what way just because search engines are better.

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Jacob Stoops: At surfacing up a matching content to the particular queries like, Why the hell, wouldn’t we want to know what people are searching for, like, that’s

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Jacob Stoops: Data. Like, why wouldn’t we want that data. Why would we stop looking for that data, all of a sudden, just because search engines are good at matching. It just doesn’t make any freakin sense and it makes me wonder where the

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Jacob Stoops: Where the hell is their head at on the big side that they’re like coming out and saying stupid stuff like this. So I don’t know.

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Ian Howells: Well, I mean what smart.

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Ian Howells: smart decisions on search from bang would be a whole new frontier for us right so I you know bad takes coming from the big team is not something that expands incredible surprising here. Enjoy your 3% market share and continue with your hot takes, I guess.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah now. And it’s funny because there’s another news article out there about being loses out to duck, duck, go.

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Jeff Louella: In Google’s new kind of Android.

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Jeff Louella: They came out of, like, a search ballot and asks countries in Europe, because they’ve

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Jeff Louella: They got sued. You know that because they promote Google on Android devices, you know, makes sense that they would do that but

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Jeff Louella: You know, it also makes sense that that’s kind of, you know, playing a little bit of monopoly, so they they put out a ballot to people in different countries through the EU or what search engines. They want listed

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Jeff Louella: At like that you can change to besides Google. So the idea is like Google is probably going to be default, but if you want to change it. What ones get listed on there. And for most of Europe DuckDuckGo is well actually DuckDuckGo is number two, and every you country.

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Jeff Louella: And being is only in a certain amount of info.com and Queen and privacy Waller all before being so the only one that being kind of beat out DuckDuckGo

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Jeff Louella: Or any of the other ones was in the United Kingdom and we know everything with Brexit. Now it’s a

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Jeff Louella: It’s one of those things where it’s like every other country, you know, Italy, Lithuania, Iceland, Greece, everyone picked up. Don’t go in there. I’m not saying there’s the writing on the wall for being or anything like that, because being is is

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Jeff Louella: It’s funny because we compare them to Google, which is like 90% of everything well being, is it can the rest of world is still a leader to some of that but

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Jeff Louella: It is an interesting approach. What’s going on these days and DuckDuckGo is really pushing privacy, which I think is

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Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I tried to stop using Google and use duck, duck, go for a couple months and then when I switch back to Google. I was like,

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Jeff Louella: Oh, all these things like complain about as an SEO, like, as a user, I are actually really good. It’s like, you know, pushes my 10 blue links down to the bottom like I missed that. DuckDuckGo does not have that so

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Jacob Stoops: I will say I like what DuckDuckGoes trying to do. I like their style.

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Jeff Louella: But when a duck, duck go shirt on. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Right. Oh, you do have a duck, duck, go.

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t know where you would purchase such a thing. Maybe on affiliate site.

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Jeff Louella: On DuckDuckGo

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Jacob Stoops: But, um, I think the big advantage that being still has is their

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Jacob Stoops: inroads into other markets, similar to Google, like Google builds phones Google Now builds computers. Google does all kinds of shit. Well guess what, so does Microsoft. They have a massive browser with a lot of people still using it.

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Jacob Stoops: They do computers. They do all kinds of stuff. And guess what they’re going to make you use Bing on all of those things. It’s actually surprising, given the amount of users that they have that being isn’t representing representing more of a marketing share but that’s, I think,

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Jacob Stoops: Because Google has basically become so so big that they’re almost a verb. Now I don’t search something I Google it. I don’t DuckDuckGo it I don’t bring it I Google it. So,

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, that’s it’s, it’s interesting. I don’t know if DuckDuckGo can ever overcome. You know, the advantages that those other two big players have with respect to the business, but I do like their style and I like their tenacity.

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Jeff Louella: And I don’t think their goal is to be bigger than Google, right, because I’m guessing there. I feel they’re pulling stuff in from Google. I don’t know exactly how they get the result.

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Jacob Stoops: Like the anti Google

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Jeff Louella: Yes. And there’s gonna always be a group of people who will enjoy that. Right. So as Google gets bigger and, you know, evil or

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Jeff Louella: And like basically the benefits of them sharing all my data between all the tools is convenient to some things, but some people don’t want all that data shared so DuckDuckGo would be great for that. So,

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Jacob Stoops: We, who is Sundar Pichai is he basically Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies. Is that is that who he is now.

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That the

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Jacob Stoops: CEO of Google, I think.

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Jeff Louella: That

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Jacob Stoops: Those missions is don’t be evil, but I feel like increasingly they’re becoming they’re becoming a little bit more evil, just like Facebook. And I just wonder if maybe Dr. Evil running both of those.

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Jeff Louella: You know, I feel, Google. It’s when you have so much data. Right. It’s like, there are certain like they have more data than anyone probably in the whole world right now and it’s

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Jeff Louella: Just being able to make things more convenient kind of seems evil. I remember when they started running ads inside of Gmail and part of it was like

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Jeff Louella: There would be a something that would read your email. So that would give you an ad based off the content inside of your email.

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Jeff Louella: And the world flipped basically like you’re reading my emails and it’s, you know, just like, shut it off right now but Alexa

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Jeff Louella: You know, when we, you know, they’re always listening, but like, are they fully listening or they just listening for the word Alexa, I think some people jump on the evil thing very quickly does not necessarily. I don’t think they’re evil, but I also think that

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Jeff Louella: They can be very easily. Right, and I think they remove that whole, don’t be evil thing out of there. Yeah, so it’s those where we feel you’re not you’re not evil, but you’re also not

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00:59:08.760 –> 00:59:17.190
Jeff Louella: You know it, you’re not planting trees where if you search that like other people are doing right and and things like that. So they are definitely a for profit company.

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00:59:17.880 –> 00:59:21.420
Jacob Stoops: They start building a Death Star. Then I’m going to be really well.

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00:59:21.420 –> 00:59:22.740
Ian Howells: Yeah face fours.

417
00:59:22.800 –> 00:59:23.550
It’s coming better

418
00:59:24.630 –> 00:59:29.550
Jeff Louella: Well, when they, when they bought Boston Dynamics right and it’s like they have AI and then they have robot.

419
00:59:30.630 –> 00:59:39.690
Jeff Louella: It would. That’s where I kind of got, like, oh, but then they sold off Boston Dynamics, but they still, it’s a little creepy, because their AI stuff and putting it in those robot dogs.

420
00:59:40.080 –> 00:59:44.190
Jeff Louella: Is like things in my dreams and I get like not my dreams my nightmares.

421
00:59:44.970 –> 00:59:45.990
Jacob Stoops: Jetsons or

422
00:59:46.650 –> 00:59:51.630
Jeff Louella: One of the two self driving cars like they’re everywhere. They’re doing a lot of things and it’s. To me, it’s

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00:59:52.560 –> 01:00:02.310
Jeff Louella: Great because it’s pushing humanity forward to an extent it’s merging us with machines. So we all become cyborgs. But I just don’t want to, like, you know, have all my brain power, run by Google right now so

424
01:00:03.210 –> 01:00:07.620
Ian Howells: I don’t know, I’m ready to be a cyborg man my hairline is garbage, my eyes are trash.

425
01:00:07.620 –> 01:00:11.220
Ian Howells: Bring bring out and cybernetics. I am. I’m here for I’m. Let’s do this.

426
01:00:12.930 –> 01:00:21.600
Jeff Louella: I am also not the singularity is one of those things where it’s it’s coming. And, you know, if it can make me live. I always wanted to be bit by a vampire.

427
01:00:22.050 –> 01:00:35.190
Jeff Louella: So that can live forever and see like where technology goes. So if I can be on a cyborg. And the same thing happens. I think another way of doing it. The Vampire part like I’m old involved. Like, I don’t want to be a vampire forever right now.

428
01:00:36.990 –> 01:00:39.240
Ian Howells: I mean like a half here in the gym first before I

429
01:00:41.640 –> 01:00:43.050
Jeff Louella: Don’t want to be the old vampire at the

430
01:00:44.040 –> 01:00:46.920
Jacob Stoops: Subconscious and then by be. Oh my god.

431
01:00:48.090 –> 01:00:48.630
Jacob Stoops: Okay.

432
01:00:49.230 –> 01:00:58.200
Jacob Stoops: So I want to do a time check. Um, let’s move into phase three, and we’re going to deep dive into affiliate sites and I’m just gonna, I’m just going to

433
01:00:58.650 –> 01:01:06.030
Jacob Stoops: Caveat this by saying this is one of those places in SEO. It’s such a broad area that

434
01:01:06.750 –> 01:01:18.300
Jacob Stoops: You should have a base in everything but I feel like the longer that this in the older that this industry gets, the more opportunities that there are to specialize in the chances of you not

435
01:01:19.200 –> 01:01:33.240
Jacob Stoops: knowing everything is is is high, Python, that’s something I have no freakin clue what it is and I’m going to say affiliate sites, we’re going to talk about it, but I have. I’ve never done it. I have no clue. Not a damn clue.

436
01:01:33.870 –> 01:01:49.890
Jacob Stoops: What I’m, what I’m doing. So I’m going to rely on you as an expert and Jeff you as an expert to guide me through what’s it like what do you need to think about if you’re in 2020 and you’re trying to run an affiliate strategy.

437
01:01:51.600 –> 01:01:53.100
Ian Howells: So I think there’s

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01:01:54.510 –> 01:02:01.830
Ian Howells: There’s probably two two different paths to to answering. This one is for folks that are maybe

439
01:02:02.520 –> 01:02:15.840
Ian Howells: Either newer in their career or have been in SEO or digital marketing PR bit in like an agency setting where you’re in, like you mentioned, a very specialized function and then there’s folks that are kind of

440
01:02:16.980 –> 01:02:25.260
Ian Howells: I guess further in their career, for lack of a better explanation and kind of deeper in their knowledge already for the new folks.

441
01:02:26.340 –> 01:02:32.550
Ian Howells: It’s great. And I recommend it for everybody that’s working at an SEO agency in that capacity.

442
01:02:33.150 –> 01:02:36.240
Ian Howells: Because you have to think about everything right like now.

443
01:02:36.540 –> 01:02:50.160
Ian Howells: The, the horseshit with oh the client will do this and like their pricing is higher, the content that competitors. So like, that’s why they’re not making money. And, you know, on and on and on and on every excuse is gone, right, like it’s just you.

444
01:02:50.700 –> 01:02:55.770
Ian Howells: And typically WordPress right like it’s you and a content management system and a domain.

445
01:02:56.160 –> 01:03:12.120
Ian Howells: And if it flops. It’s because of you. And if it does. Well, it’s because you did good things, right. So it kind of is a bit of a put up or shut up for for folks to put themselves into which is great because that’s when you learn stuff that you didn’t know

446
01:03:12.120 –> 01:03:12.840
Ian Howells: Before

447
01:03:12.900 –> 01:03:19.620
Ian Howells: Right, you have to get better at pre selling and copywriting otherwise you’re going to get traffic and it’s not going to convert

448
01:03:19.920 –> 01:03:22.830
Ian Howells: You have to get better at keyword research and planning.

449
01:03:23.130 –> 01:03:29.880
Ian Howells: Because you’re probably a small new site. So you’ve really got to pick your battles for what you’re going to try and go do

450
01:03:30.060 –> 01:03:38.820
Ian Howells: Because you’re not going to go outrank the wire cutter or credit cards calm for you know best, small business credit cards or something like that. Right.

451
01:03:39.210 –> 01:03:53.070
Ian Howells: So it kind of top to bottom through the process forces you to get better at each piece because everything has to work or the end result is not going to happen. Right. And again,

452
01:03:53.520 –> 01:04:03.360
Ian Howells: You’re the only reason right you you are the lever on every step of that process. So I think it’s a really good thing for for folks to do

453
01:04:03.780 –> 01:04:09.270
Ian Howells: And then even just taking the like you should want to learn and get better and do new things out of it.

454
01:04:09.720 –> 01:04:18.930
Ian Howells: It makes you absurdly employable. Right. Like if you are a junior SEO in your first gig and an agency and you’re 12 to 24 months out of school, call it

455
01:04:19.650 –> 01:04:30.510
Ian Howells: building your own site and putting that on your resume, like, hey, I made this website. It ranks for, you know, a few hundred keywords and gets 1000 visits a month and makes me some money.

456
01:04:30.810 –> 01:04:39.270
Ian Howells: Your resume is immediately at the top of the pile like as somebody who was a hiring manager at a large mid cap public company.

457
01:04:40.230 –> 01:04:53.730
Ian Howells: There are like so many resumes come in when we put out a job posting will get like 300 resumes. Right. And I had to get the recruiting team like three things to look for, like, if you see resumes with any of these three things.

458
01:04:54.840 –> 01:04:59.310
Ian Howells: shortlist like those are the resumes that I want to see in one is they built their own website.

459
01:04:59.850 –> 01:05:06.060
Ian Howells: Like that just immediately gets you through the hundreds of other resumes into the front of the line.

460
01:05:06.480 –> 01:05:11.610
Ian Howells: It’s going to get you on the phone. And then if you barf all over yourself on the phone like that’s the end of the road, but

461
01:05:11.940 –> 01:05:23.370
Ian Howells: You know, if nothing else, like if you’re applying for jobs and not getting a call back as an SEO and you haven’t built your own website and put it on your resume. That’s like the biggest lever. I think you can can pull

462
01:05:24.540 –> 01:05:26.280
Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s funny because I

463
01:05:27.540 –> 01:05:33.660
Jeff Louella: I totally the same beliefs and things like that and I you started off building websites myself started

464
01:05:34.470 –> 01:05:46.380
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I was a DJ went to promote promote myself as a DJ built websites doing that I learned how to use like real audio back then to do streaming. Unfortunately, everybody had like 14 four modem at that time and if

465
01:05:47.820 –> 01:05:48.660
Jeff Louella: I was a little early, and

466
01:05:49.680 –> 01:05:50.400
Ian Howells: Just early

467
01:05:50.820 –> 01:05:58.980
Jeff Louella: Exactly. And then, so things like that when great. But actually when I when I met you and we started, you know, I started learning more about affiliates self.

468
01:05:59.400 –> 01:06:09.510
Jeff Louella: I’m trying to start up those niche affiliate sites. I think I started one called like barbecue pit man calm and I was selling, you know, talking about barbecue grills on there and

469
01:06:09.900 –> 01:06:16.200
Jeff Louella: It actually I had a couple different ones. I had one about music, because I love music realized that music wasn’t a great affiliate

470
01:06:16.590 –> 01:06:32.190
Jeff Louella: You know area because CDs. At the time, like you would get like a nickel or dime off of it while an $800 barbecue grill, you know, and if you’re using Amazon affiliates, you’re getting like 7% so it’s like a, you know, same amount a lot more money and

471
01:06:33.330 –> 01:06:45.570
Jeff Louella: You know, and then of course you get a little greedy. Sometimes when you start getting some traffic and you start getting a little more spammy to get that more traffic and then eventually, Google, you know, get you get you get on their shortlist, and then they

472
01:06:46.650 –> 01:06:56.370
Jeff Louella: Then you get banned from it and I’ve learned a lot about that too. So actually, for me, kind of making affiliate site being a little more spammy on it learned a lot more about penalties.

473
01:06:56.610 –> 01:07:05.130
Jeff Louella: And I did learn a lot about things there. And I say that, you know, when I am interviewing somebody I always say, like, hey, you make a website, even people on my team.

474
01:07:05.550 –> 01:07:13.650
Jeff Louella: That don’t have like even if you don’t build the website from scratch. But just like the art of getting traffic to your site and natural is like is important and

475
01:07:15.330 –> 01:07:23.610
Jeff Louella: Doing it to incentivize like hey I I made money off of this now gives me more the incentive to actually try to make it even better.

476
01:07:24.030 –> 01:07:30.240
Jeff Louella: And that’s kind of where I feel like affiliates are at a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of good affiliates out there. There’s a lot of bad ones, and I think

477
01:07:31.080 –> 01:07:38.010
Jeff Louella: The bad affiliates especially what I did with that barbecue site was, you know, did a lot of spinning content and things like that that I’m not proud of but

478
01:07:38.940 –> 01:07:51.030
Jeff Louella: I think in affiliate world there are the good and bad and I, IT’S KIND OF WHAT I WANT YOU KNOW WHERE MY QUESTION IS GOING TO GO. It’s, um, do you think affiliates have a bad like SEO. In general, they might have a bad name and marketing industries because SEO.

479
01:07:51.120 –> 01:08:01.620
Jeff Louella: Or spam your overall, you know, not me, of course. But other people and in the SEO world there’s affiliates and affiliates kind of get that that more of the

480
01:08:02.220 –> 01:08:17.850
Jeff Louella: Black Hat aspect of things. So I think there was a lot of affiliate like black hat networks and syndicate and things like that. So where do you feel like with affiliates like as it getting better or is it actually still a world of spam and junk out there.

481
01:08:18.390 –> 01:08:21.720
Ian Howells: So I think it’s interesting. There are

482
01:08:22.980 –> 01:08:32.940
Ian Howells: There are obviously different perspective right on affiliates. I think now within the SEO community. I don’t think affiliate has a bad reputation because like

483
01:08:33.150 –> 01:08:49.620
Ian Howells: How the hell else are you making money, right, like for people that run their own sites like that’s kind of like, unless you’re just running AdSense or display ads like. And I would argue from the display of that I see they deserve a worse reputation than

484
01:08:49.680 –> 01:08:51.030
Ian Howells: A lot of affiliate marketing.

485
01:08:52.320 –> 01:08:59.700
Ian Howells: So I think within the industry, you know, pretty widely accepted. I think you’ll have very differing opinions from

486
01:09:00.120 –> 01:09:11.250
Ian Howells: When I think back to the GSA commerce days like folks that are in house at an e commerce store will have very different opinions about affiliates based on how their network has gone right so i think

487
01:09:11.670 –> 01:09:21.930
Ian Howells: Some will basically equate if you’re an in house at an E calm place and like digital marketing is not your thing. You’re a product merchandiser or something, an e commerce store.

488
01:09:22.410 –> 01:09:35.040
Ian Howells: Your exposure to affiliate marketing is probably heavily dominated by coupon sites. Right. And in that view like through that lens. You probably view them as a parasite right because

489
01:09:35.340 –> 01:09:42.990
Ian Howells: They just rank for my store name plus coupon or coupons and all these people that I would have gotten any way.

490
01:09:43.320 –> 01:09:51.090
Ian Howells: Are now clicking through here just to get a promo code to put in. So I’m losing money on the ARV because now they’re all using the 10% coupon.

491
01:09:51.540 –> 01:10:01.200
Ian Howells: And now I’m paying a whatever five 6% commission to this, you know, parasitic affiliate site at the same time, right. So I think there’s still pockets like that where

492
01:10:01.440 –> 01:10:09.630
Ian Howells: Because a lens that affiliate marketing to view through can be very specific to certain stuff you can come away with a bad taste in your mouth.

493
01:10:10.140 –> 01:10:21.450
Ian Howells: I think the the flip side to that would be seen stuff like wire cutter getting bought by the New York Times, right, like the name in the US for news, generally speaking.

494
01:10:21.900 –> 01:10:37.140
Ian Howells: Buying an Amazon affiliate website for almost 100 million dollars i think is a a good temperature read for life okay yeah affiliates, not a joke and like large companies recognize the value and potential that’s there.

495
01:10:39.300 –> 01:10:40.740
Jeff Louella: How do you go about and

496
01:10:40.950 –> 01:10:41.250
Like

497
01:10:42.840 –> 01:10:49.470
Jeff Louella: Not going to ask what your affiliates are or think that, but how do you go apart like and just figure out how to

498
01:10:50.160 –> 01:10:54.180
Jeff Louella: Pick an affiliate that you want. So you’re going to go, you want to start a new site.

499
01:10:54.780 –> 01:11:00.030
Jeff Louella: You go through the process of doing your research and things like that. Like, what are some of those steps in that process to

500
01:11:00.450 –> 01:11:08.520
Jeff Louella: Pick an industry or find out like information about that industry and whether it’s worth to. It’s a lot of work, you know, to build up a site so

501
01:11:08.880 –> 01:11:18.150
Jeff Louella: You know you don’t want to go into something like, like I said, with music and realize they have zero like even if someone buys something, you get a dime compared to where you get

502
01:11:19.590 –> 01:11:24.960
Jeff Louella: To ask yeah yeah right where your poker sites that like when you got $100 each one. Like, that’s awesome. I wish I get $100 a

503
01:11:26.070 –> 01:11:27.600
Jeff Louella: Click the link on my website right so

504
01:11:27.840 –> 01:11:38.640
Ian Howells: So there I think to two ways. Basically the framework that I use for picking affiliate spots three I line already and backtrack and so the first way would be

505
01:11:39.210 –> 01:11:46.080
Ian Howells: An industry that I already know is high volume and high dollar right so home security being a good example. I got

506
01:11:46.470 –> 01:11:54.690
Ian Howells: Cheated On that one because I got exposure to home security when I was at Red ventures. They were. And I think still are a very large ADT dealer.

507
01:11:55.470 –> 01:12:08.250
Ian Howells: So was able to see firsthand like the amount of volume available in the space and what home security companies are willing to pay out because they’re getting you know that 3040 $50 recurring monthly

508
01:12:09.390 –> 01:12:20.910
Ian Howells: Purchase with like a 24 month contract. In some cases, right. So, like they’re dealing with real money. So bringing them a customer, it can be very lucrative for you. So what are those kind of large industries.

509
01:12:21.270 –> 01:12:29.850
Ian Howells: That are going to be around for a long time payouts are really high right those are basically where I make my long term bets like

510
01:12:29.880 –> 01:12:33.120
Ian Howells: The site is not going to do anything. And it’s first 612

511
01:12:33.150 –> 01:12:48.780
Ian Howells: Maybe even 18 months, but it’s a iron in the fire that you know I just keep going and the plan is, I’m still going to have this website five years from now, right. So stuff like home security web hosting like those big industries with high dollar payouts

512
01:12:49.710 –> 01:13:00.630
Ian Howells: The second would be pockets where I see week competition that generally speaking funnel to Amazon, right. So basically anything you can buy on the internet you can buy on Amazon.

513
01:13:01.200 –> 01:13:06.600
Ian Howells: The Commission structures there. You know what it is, the tracking is there, like, there’s not a lot of unknowns.

514
01:13:07.020 –> 01:13:18.360
Ian Howells: All you really have to be able to do is the keyword and competitive research and you’re good to go. Like I farm out all the content production I farm on a lot of the link production. So at that point, it’s just like a capital.

515
01:13:20.490 –> 01:13:27.060
Ian Howells: Application game of, like, where am I going to put funding and you know how, how big of a bet. Am I going to make on each one.

516
01:13:27.870 –> 01:13:28.320
So,

517
01:13:29.580 –> 01:13:31.680
Jacob Stoops: You said keyword research is still relevant.

518
01:13:32.340 –> 01:13:49.860
Ian Howells: I did, I would venture to say for an affiliate, it is arguably the most important thing that you can do because you have to find keywords that not only have volume but have intent and have SERPs that you can crack with whatever site, you’re actually working with alright

519
01:13:50.040 –> 01:13:51.240
Jacob Stoops: So, suck it being

520
01:13:53.070 –> 01:13:54.990
Ian Howells: That they’ve been doing that for years already there.

521
01:13:57.870 –> 01:14:05.910
Ian Howells: And then the, the only other the, the kind of third that I backtracked my two part answer to, and turn it into a three parter.

522
01:14:06.420 –> 01:14:17.940
Ian Howells: Is just if I either get approached or see an auction for a domain where the price looks right. And then that kind of sends me down the rabbit hole of looking into that industry.

523
01:14:18.210 –> 01:14:28.140
Ian Howells: Trying to get the scope of how big can this be a trust is really like my go to tool like I’m, you know, aside from when it logs me out, which it does more than

524
01:14:28.950 –> 01:14:35.490
Ian Howells: I would like, but in general, there’s probably two or three hrs tabs open in my Chrome at all times.

525
01:14:36.240 –> 01:14:42.090
Ian Howells: Because it is the fastest way to go from like two or three seed keywords to a list of probably 50 keywords.

526
01:14:42.450 –> 01:14:47.610
Ian Howells: To filtering up. Who are the domains that are kind of owning this space.

527
01:14:47.910 –> 01:14:52.890
Ian Howells: And then being able to click through right to them and say, okay, they’ve got this many referring domains. They do this much traffic.

528
01:14:53.130 –> 01:15:03.450
Ian Howells: Let me see where those links come from. Can I replicate that like that becomes like a 20 minute process of being able to size up in industry and have a general gut feeling of

529
01:15:03.810 –> 01:15:09.660
Ian Howells: I’m way out of my league and there’s no way I’m getting in here. So, like this is either going to be a multi year bet or

530
01:15:10.050 –> 01:15:24.000
Ian Howells: Oh damn, this looks like there’s something here. There’s people all over, page one that are pretty weak that I feel like you know in six or eight months, I can replicate the mountain quality of content they have and the mountain quality of links that they have. Yeah.

531
01:15:26.100 –> 01:15:35.490
Jeff Louella: So when you get your, you know, your niche and you you build a site. I am guessing most of time. It’s a WordPress get there. I mean, because it’s just so simple.

532
01:15:36.150 –> 01:15:44.070
Jeff Louella: There is a lot of, you know, we need lots of content to be able to build that right so I’m guessing. The next kind of approach is

533
01:15:44.490 –> 01:15:58.110
Jeff Louella: Getting the site structure and start building out content. Is that something you’re writing yourself or is that something you’re kind of going not fiber. But, you know, some other place to get content written and then you just the editorial notes of that.

534
01:15:58.470 –> 01:16:05.700
Ian Howells: Yep. So thankfully, now I do less than, less than less myself. One of the things I focused on in 2019

535
01:16:06.510 –> 01:16:11.940
Ian Howells: Was bringing more part time folks on to help me with portions of it, right. So, now, thankfully.

536
01:16:12.240 –> 01:16:25.170
Ian Howells: I now have a reliable part time person who knows a trance knows how to do keyword research and they can basically build content maps for me. I give them an industry and two or three competitors to look at and they can just go

537
01:16:25.650 –> 01:16:35.610
Ian Howells: And then come back with a Google Sheet template that I made filled out with what keywords and then I know what pages. Do I need to make. What are the keywords that need to funnel into them.

538
01:16:36.180 –> 01:16:46.470
Ian Howells: I basically then take those Google Sheets and pass them over to word agents word agents calm and they right now all of my new affiliate content.

539
01:16:47.250 –> 01:16:48.660
Ian Howells: And so, it all goes to them.

540
01:16:49.110 –> 01:16:59.970
Ian Howells: The last missing piece I need to fill is then the, hey, we got a Google Drive folder, full of content from word agents, I need all of this in WordPress now and I need the internal links done and blah, blah, blah.

541
01:17:00.270 –> 01:17:09.540
Ian Howells: That’s the the piece that I’m still kind of rotating through some folks trying to find somebody that I really like that. I’ll continue to work with. But you can kind of

542
01:17:10.770 –> 01:17:26.340
Ian Howells: D scale each individual portion of the process and have different folks fulfill each part, right, because I am not going to sit here and pick out 800 words about, you know, this camping tent.

543
01:17:26.430 –> 01:17:37.710
Ian Howells: That and why it’s great. Right. Like there’s people who write for a living, that’s what they want to do. They do that from wherever the hell they want. That’s great word agents just takes care of the content for me now.

544
01:17:38.430 –> 01:17:40.590
Jeff Louella: You just need Hamlet write you a script and play.

545
01:17:43.140 –> 01:17:43.500
Ian Howells: Button.

546
01:17:45.690 –> 01:17:51.570
Jacob Stoops: between him and jr folks to build a search engine or machine learning how to auto produce the content, I bet.

547
01:17:54.510 –> 01:18:04.530
Jacob Stoops: So Ian on definitely want to thank you for, for your time. We always wrap up, or at least we tried to sometimes we forget and you’ve kind of alluded to, to it.

548
01:18:05.070 –> 01:18:12.120
Jacob Stoops: To building websites, being a good thing. So I’m going to ask you to maybe provide a different piece of advice, but we always end by saying

549
01:18:13.020 –> 01:18:24.150
Jacob Stoops: If you were a new SEO you’re you’re fresh out of college or you’re thinking about getting into the industry literally today this moment, what would be the advice that you would give to that person.

550
01:18:26.970 –> 01:18:33.510
Ian Howells: The, the biggie is building your own site. But you said that’s not that’s not an answer. I can do is I’ll take that off the table. I would

551
01:18:34.560 –> 01:18:42.990
Ian Howells: If I was still in college. I would look to get an internship at an agency. And if I had just graduated, I would do.

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Ian Howells: Everything that I could to make myself marketable on paper to get an interview at an agency and get a junior level role I hate on the agency model a lot. And there’s a bunch there that I don’t like.

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Ian Howells: But it is the fastest way to get in somewhere see a bunch of stuff happen and learn, kind of as you as you do. And I think starting out your career as a junior person in house somewhere.

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01:19:13.830 –> 01:19:22.260
Ian Howells: I think kind of insulate to a little too much into the specific tech stack and the specific goals and like how monetization happens

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01:19:22.560 –> 01:19:26.460
Ian Howells: You get a little bit pigeonholed into one way of doing things.

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Ian Howells: Whereas generally at an agency, you’re going to get exposed to multiple different CMS and platforms, you’re going to get exposed to different kinds of people. And if you’re going to be successful.

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01:19:35.730 –> 01:19:47.250
Ian Howells: Have to figure out how to talk to clients and other stakeholders to actually get work done. There are a lot of skills that you can hone working in an agency, and I think it’s a good

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01:19:47.700 –> 01:19:54.990
Ian Howells: Spot for somebody to spend their first call a two to three years in the digital marketing world doing that work.

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Jacob Stoops: Speaking of agencies Jeff and I worked for one search discovery. So if you are one of those people looking and coming out of college we do college hires every single year.

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Jacob Stoops: And in Ian’s right it is really great experience. You get to work across multiple verticals with a lot of different people that know a lot of different things, especially at search discovery. So I don’t want this podcast to be just like a

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01:20:21.570 –> 01:20:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Major plug, but come work with us. We’d love to work with you and

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Jeff Louella: Anyways, rent.

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01:20:26.970 –> 01:20:27.270
Right.

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Ian Howells: Yes.

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01:20:28.950 –> 01:20:33.240
Jacob Stoops: Yes, let’s yell about things in person. So he and where can people find you.

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01:20:35.100 –> 01:20:50.310
Ian Howells: So on Twitter, just at Ian Howells Real original and creative with the Twitter handle there otherwise I don’t like I’m the worst solo SEO in the world. Like, I don’t have

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Ian Howells: A website that like advertises my service. I think I NH media com is literally a logo lucky pixel calm is the BBA that I do my consulting on it’s again a logo on on the homepage. And that’s it. There’s not even a contact form.

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Ian Howells: And so really Twitter and inside Traffic Think Tank are like the two places that I hang out and network with with people in the industry. So Traffic Think Tank calm and Twitter at Ian’s house would be the best bet.

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Jacob Stoops: Awesome. I’ll say it again if you want to go to one of the best conferences about building traffic that is going on right now. Go to Traffic Think Tank calm, forward slash live

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Jacob Stoops: The event, again, is in Miami. So nice warm sunny place that most people want to go and it is on May 16 Ian I don’t know how many like if you guys restrict the number of tickets. But how many, how many tickets are left left at this moment.

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Ian Howells: We are, I think, right now we’re 64 65% sold. So there’s like 120 spots left, something like that. Cool.

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Jacob Stoops: Alright, so you hear that there are spots left this episode is going to release on on the following Monday we record ahead so

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Jacob Stoops: I believe that they might there might still be some spots left by that time, that’s only a couple of days from now. But, uh,

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, go and go and buy a ticket if you want to meet some really, really great people and attend to, really, really awesome about. But otherwise, em, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your time. Really appreciate the candor candor candor. Yeah.

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01:22:27.930 –> 01:22:28.740
Jacob Stoops: That’s awkward. That’s

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Jeff Louella: The Rings Kelly appreciate

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Jacob Stoops: It was a great discussion.

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01:22:33.810 –> 01:22:37.740
Ian Howells: Now awesome I fun. Thanks for having me guess. Awesome. Thank you.running 

#35: Sarah McDowell

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Sarah McDowell, SEO Specialist at LikeMind Media and Co-Host of the SEO SAS Podcast, a podcast that delves into individual SEO issues each week.

We discuss how she went from a background in dance to a digital marketing role focused on link building and then eventually into a career in SEO, her experiences going between agencies and in-house roles, founding her own business and eventually shutting it down, the challenges and psychology of getting stuff implemented, and more.

In addition, we cover and share our perspective on a recent SEO “kerfuffle” around the subject of hiring for SEO and interview questions which stems from a tweet put out by Bill Hartzer which caused a few side-eyes in the industry (here, here, here).

And to round out this episode, we dive deep into what went into founding her podcast, and we share our experiences on what it’s like to run an SEO podcast, as well as some of the behind-the-scenes work that goes into making a podcast come to life.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are here for another episode of the Page 2 Podcast. Hi, Jeff. How’s it going?

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Jeff Louella: It’s going well. How you doing?

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Jacob Stoops: That’s, I feel like our bit, Jeff. You’ve got it. You’ve got to come like…

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Jeff Louella: I gotta come stronger.

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Jacob Stoops: Well no, you come the same way every week and I feel like you got

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Jacob Stoops: To like keep

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Jacob Stoops: me on my toes in terms of I’m not very good at figuring out a great way to introduce it’s you. Maybe I’ll just do the introductions and you introduce me

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Jeff Louella: We’ve got this. Come up with my own recorded drop and it’ll be like a mega like coming soon.

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Jacob Stoops: And we also have as a guest from across the pond Sarah McDowell, SEO specialist at LikeMind Media, and you might better know her as the host of the SEO SAS podcast. How’s it going, Sarah.

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Sarah McDowell: I am thrilled to be on your podcast. So things are going really well for me. How about you guys?

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Jacob Stoops: Pretty good, pretty good. It’s getting as my kids are reminded we’re about two weeks away from from Christmas and Christmas time and holiday time in agency world is. It’s crazy, man. It’s, it’s been crazy

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Jeff Louella: It’s crazy that it just dies. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah. And everybody goes on PTO

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Sarah McDowell: See, for me it squeeze in the same amount of work that needs to be done, but in less time. So obviously, instead of I’ve only really got two and a half weeks to still do all the jobs that I need to do. So it’s a bit of a headache, but yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s the life we live, it’s nice to have another podcaster on with us.

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Sarah McDowell: Likewise, it’s nice to talk to a fellow podcaster,

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Sarah McDowell: Is

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Jacob Stoops: Before we jumped on that this was the first podcast where you’ve actually been a guest.

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Sarah McDowell: Yes, so please be kind and please be gentle with me. Haha.

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Jacob Stoops: That’s what the that’s what the last people said, I’m wondering if we’re

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A reputation. That’s funny.

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Sarah McDowell: Cuz I’ve been listening to your podcasts and yeah, I’ve just got em. It’s a good one. So one night me as a guest. I want to do well. So, yes, but

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Sarah McDowell: It’s my first time and but after today we have been invited to be on another one. So I think so and but yeah it’s weird to not have control of the podcast, I’m not gonna lie.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, if you’re if you’re a can. And I’m not saying you’re a control freak. But if you are a control freak. This is probably really difficult.

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Sarah McDowell: Patient comfortable now. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.

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Jacob Stoops: So I especially with with your podcast. Obviously, I, I feel like the the way that we booked guests has been very, very organic in terms of like

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Jacob Stoops: There are people that are known. I feel like commodities and have been for some time in the industry and, and when I sat down, about a year ago and tried to figure out, okay, like what do I want to do with the podcast, who do I want on

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Jacob Stoops: In even this year there are definitely names that I feel like they come up and all the conferences like the you, you know, you can bet you could almost like

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Jacob Stoops: Put mug shots or whatever, whatever. And but one of the other things that has happened that I’ve noticed and why I say it’s very organic and not really

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t really think the way that we put guests is stale is if you’re if you’re following SEO on the on the Twitter. I feel like especially recently there been a lot of newer people that have come across my

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Jacob Stoops: Feed that I have found very interesting and when I find that to be the case. I say, I think I want to talk to them.

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Jacob Stoops: And you happen to be to be one of those people that I would say is a little bit and I don’t know how long you’ve been doing this. We’ll get into

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Jacob Stoops: Into that. But as far as it relates to me, noticing your presence on Twitter. Um, I would say that’s been more more recent and especially because you’re a fellow podcaster, I was like, I really think it would be great.

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Jacob Stoops: TO HAVE YOU ON so that’s that’s why you’re here and you were gracious enough to say yes and to to come on and I think we’re really interested to hear your story.

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Sarah McDowell: Okay, so, um, how do I start. That’s the question. And so, I mean, I, I sort of fell into SEO to be to be completely honest, so I sorry

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Jacob Stoops: Yes. Does everybody

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Sarah McDowell: Well, actually, I got a degree and dancing and realized that it was far too competitive and the best. I was better at African

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Sarah McDowell: And then any of the principal and then I couldn’t make a living. So I was like, right, what can I do

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Sarah McDowell: And I basically applied for a reception role as an SEO company that had been filled but they wanted to grow their link building team. So that’s where I started. And that was 2012, I believe. And so how many years ago. Is that, is that my six or seven. I’m not very good with math.

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Sarah McDowell: And so, so yes and i i was working in that agency for a good few years and I learned everything on the job. So I started from the bottom sort of link building

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Sarah McDowell: And and then I did content and content outreach and I just was there for about four years and I grew in the company sort of thing.

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Sarah McDowell: And then after been there for about four years. I then went to work in house because I was like, Okay, so I’ve got agency. I want to know what it’s like to work in house and how different that is obviously with agency, you’ve got the sort of

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Sarah McDowell: Different companies that you’re working for different industries different challenges. So I was like, Okay. Wonder if it’s less of a headache. If it’s just internal. And so, yes. So I did that for a bit.

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Sarah McDowell: And then I did that for a couple of companies and then I finally so I did have my own

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Sarah McDowell: Sort of marketing digital marketing agency for a bit and I got lonely. To be completely honest and and pull my boss.

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Sarah McDowell: I sort of knew like he was a friend and he was like, Oh, why don’t you just join like mind media and which is where I work. Now, and and he bought me in so

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Sarah McDowell: Whenever we hire someone he wants to hire someone that has a specialism in some sort. So obviously I came in with my SEO and and I sort of

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Sarah McDowell: Went with him, like all I’ve got an idea to do a podcast and i mean i don’t know if I’m like jumping ahead a bit ahead of myself better. And can I go in and talk about how the podcast came about is that, does that make sense. Let’s

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s leave that to the

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To the end because I

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Jacob Stoops: Questions for you and I definitely want to deep dive on the on the podcast, towards the end of the episode. So let’s let’s let’s wait on that one will get back to it and let’s talk about you outside of the podcast.

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Sarah McDowell: Okay well me as an individual in the SEO world.

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Sarah McDowell: Okay, well, yes. So I basically am so like I said, I fell into and I just love it because I mean this is the cliche, but we all know that Google is changing.

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Sarah McDowell: Like what worked 510 years ago. Doesn’t work now and i i can get quite bored as a person. I’m a bit flaky and friends reference there.

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Sarah McDowell: And so that so SEO kind of suits me because it’s always changing and you’ve got to sort of be ahead of the game, haven’t you, you’ve always got to

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Sarah McDowell: Be reading what’s what’s what’s going to industry events and stuff and and day to day activities. Wow, it’s like

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Sarah McDowell: Every day. So how I sort of work with my clients. So how clients come on board is like, Oh, I’ve got an issue with something

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Sarah McDowell: And they reach out and then they say, well, what, why is this. Can you help me. So then it’s finding what the reasons why basically behind if I if I’m making sense. And so I like to sort of diagnostic

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Sarah McDowell: And put in my sort of investigators hat on and also just trying stuff and

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Sarah McDowell: Like tried and tried and things on a client’s website and seeing if it works. If it doesn’t work, then we always transparent and say why we’ll try something new.

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Sarah McDowell: But at the same time, it’s great when you try something and it does work and they get an increase in traffic or they get an increase in rankings or the type of traffic is better for conversion sort of thing.

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Jacob Stoops: So I have to ask, you’ve been in what I call agency world three times, but you also dabbled in house which which do you like better, and why

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Sarah McDowell: Oh right, I’m going to say agency, just because and with agency, you get to work with lots of different industries.

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Sarah McDowell: And with different industries comes like different sort of challenges and problems. And so when I was working in house. Yes, you get really good and you can nation and industry.

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Sarah McDowell: However, and so when I was working for in house. It was for assistance firm and however I prefer more agency, because it’s more varied and you get to try new things out.

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Sarah McDowell: And and especially when it comes to SEO and things that I can dabble and try as agency. Where is if I’m just stuck in house working on one service, for example, and I don’t get to try new things as much

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, I feel sometimes. So I’ve always worked in agencies and never worked in house and

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Jeff Louella: Sometimes I do, I feel like I hit a limit on the agency side where

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Jeff Louella: You know, I’m giving recommendations to my client who either has a development team or has hired a separate development team.

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Jeff Louella: And sometimes they have different priorities right so now i don’t i’m always the outside person looking in. And a lot of my companies that I’m working for where I feel like if I went in house.

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Jeff Louella: I could be in there badgering them every day to get installed. But then once it’s implemented, you’re right. I think after a while you just like after working on the same site. And I think it’s why I’ve always stayed at agencies because

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Jeff Louella: Like I have a team and I can do a lot of in house people you’re one person.

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Jeff Louella: And you know you have a team we we actually get to definitely work on different things, all the times and and clients really like to mess up their sites, a lot and and we’re there to that we’re always there to be able to help and I feel like I get a lot more

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Jeff Louella: I get exposed to a lot more

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Jeff Louella: Being at the agency level, but sometimes I don’t feel like I get as deep as I want to get where you could probably get in house but

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I think yes.

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Sarah McDowell: Yeah, that’s a really good point, actually. So obviously, if you are in house. Then you’ve got sort of one focus and you can spend more time.

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Sarah McDowell: Because the one thing with agency and is you’ve only got a finite amount of time and we could all do with one more day and also it’s sort of juggling

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Sarah McDowell: What the client sees as a priority and what really is a priority. And so I have conversations with clients quite a lot of time where they deemed something more important.

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Sarah McDowell: Than something else that I want to work on and it’s the challenge of sort of proving okay what you want to work on is important, however, and

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Sarah McDowell: That, for example, when when when the medic update that was quite a while ago now as first day that I could think of the top of my head.

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Sarah McDowell: And there was quite, quite a few of my clients, where they needed to, especially the clients that we’re working in like given many advice medical advice there was work to be done there on sort of

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Sarah McDowell: On their about page and on the team page and getting the expertise across. And that’s what I wanted to work on, whereas they wanted to work on other things like the fluffier stuff that looks good to you. I mean, and

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Sarah McDowell: That’s the challenge really isn’t it is managing clients expectations and getting the point across that this is what needs to be worked on. And this is why

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Jacob Stoops: I always feel like, Well, I’ve said it, like many, many, many times. The hardest part of SEO is implementation, and I believe that that occurs.

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Jacob Stoops: Whether you’re in house or whether you’re at an agency.

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Jacob Stoops: I think the benefit of going in house and like sometimes when I’m at an agency, because I’ve jumped back and forth a couple of times you’re

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Jacob Stoops: You’re sometimes always yearning, a little bit for like the grass is grass is greener and sometimes when I’m when you know when you’re getting bombarded with a bunch of different industries, a bunch of different clients sometimes crazy work hours.

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Jacob Stoops: You’re always like, Man, I wish I could just for once, focus on one site for a finite amount of time and

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Sarah McDowell: See it

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Jacob Stoops: Through but then when I get there, I realized just like Jeff said, I’m the only one of my team. And at a certain point, like, especially if you’re having difficulty getting things implemented it gets quite

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Jacob Stoops: Boring. So I’ve found over the years that I just for in again in house SEOs are awesome. But I found for me.

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Jacob Stoops: The agency side tends to work a little bit more. But what I was getting to

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Jacob Stoops: Is the idea that sometimes implementation is really hard and it becomes an exercise in psychology. And what I mean by that is, how can I convince this third party to do

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Jacob Stoops: What they what I need them to do in order to make myself my agency their site successful and sometimes you really have to think about

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Jacob Stoops: Psychologically, what can you say to them to make them or what can you show them to make them want to change their minds which can be difficult because people don’t like

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Jacob Stoops: Change and there’s often egos involved in different priorities and that’s part of the fun, especially on in quote unquote agency world being kind of on the outside.

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Jacob Stoops: Looking in making the case to get your stuff implemented because you do have a short time window. It’s one of the greatest challenges we all face.

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Sarah McDowell: And it does at a date. Now, if you guys and what strictly Strictly Come Dancing or, you know, the UK strictly and but there was a judge on that she’s not anymore but darcey bussell so the

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Sarah McDowell: ballerina and this will be relevant, I promise. And when she was given feedback to dances. She’d always give the darcey bussell shit sandwich. And were you sort of

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Sarah McDowell: So you start with the positive, then you go with the negative and then you go with the positive again and I sort of. That’s how I sort of approach clients and stuff. So say for example, a client has just

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Sarah McDowell: They’ve got a new website and then they’ve come to you to SEO it. Yeah. And in that, and that’s what they actually say, oh, can you just SEO. This sign is that okay

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Sarah McDowell: Yeah, I’ve got issues with you to say that, but hey, I will will get over that. But yeah, but it’s sort of say, and you realize that the site isn’t

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Sarah McDowell: technically sound for SEO and that’s where the shit sandwich comes in. So I always try and find a positive to say. So if I can find something about user experience or page speed, for example, I’ll start with that.

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Sarah McDowell: And then I’ll say. However, this is not so good because this is the reasons why. And this is the opportunities and and yeah and then now end on a high as well. So there you go. The Darcy associate sandwich.

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Jacob Stoops: So I actually know more about dancing, then you might think

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Jacob Stoops: Said, I’m not a drama terrible dancer. My wife grew up as a as a dancer and why that’s relevant. Now it’s because you mentioned like one of the only dance shows that she probably doesn’t watch

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Jacob Stoops: But she watches literally every dance reality TV show. Well,

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Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that there are more than this, but like we have watched dancing with the stars like every season since we’ve been together, which is going on like over a decade.

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Jacob Stoops: Now, and also. So You Think You Can Dance. I’m pretty well versed in dance reality shows and I’m actually surprised that I did not know that one.

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Sarah McDowell: Straight king. I mean, yes, I mean it’s the UK one. I mean, it’s coming to an end. Now, but that’s been on everyone’s wow that’s what me and my girlfriend watch

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Jacob Stoops: favorite type of dance.

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Sarah McDowell: Oh,

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Sarah McDowell: Well, I’ve not dancing, very long time. But when I was at university studying it. I preferred African peoples dance. So my course was dancing culture. So you got to do five different principles.

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Sarah McDowell: So we did African Khattak which is a Indian style of dancing ballet. I was rubbish at ballet, because it was just too strict can get on that and contemporary and cartography so African peoples dance was the form that I enjoyed the most

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Jacob Stoops: So I would say I think contemporary is the one that always in and I, my wife is a major crier. And I’m like, I would say I’m a minor crier like I get. I get a little bit emotional and I feel like contemporary always kind of brings that brings that out.

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Jacob Stoops: But then I would say in terms of like just really cool to watch. Um, it’s called POP POP locking

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Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember the name

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Sarah McDowell: But it took a night sweet so

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Jacob Stoops: Walking like quick robotic movements. I always find that fascinating.

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To watch

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Jacob Stoops: Jeff, can you pop luck.

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Jeff Louella: I could do the robot like it’s like

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Sarah McDowell: Me you

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Jeff Louella: Know, I am not a good dancer whatsoever. I do like to dance to embarrass my kids.

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What’s a good

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Sarah McDowell: One.

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Jacob Stoops: Fact in the, the only other dance thing that I’m that I’m going to talk about if you search YouTube for Jake and Gina wedding dance.

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Jacob Stoops: I’m all over that we actually did a choreographed dance at our wedding with

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Jacob Stoops: Something like 18 total bridesmaids and groomsmen

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Jacob Stoops: flippin oh yeah it was it was crazy.

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Sarah McDowell: I’ll be checking that out straight after this podcast.

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Jeff Louella: Check it out right now while we’re on it.

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Sarah McDowell: Multitasking is fine.

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Jacob Stoops: Fun. Cool.

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Jacob Stoops: Awesome, man.

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Jeff Louella: No, I don’t know much about dancing, but

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Jeff Louella: No, I mean, I

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Jeff Louella: I’m kind of been going through some of these new things and wanted to think we should jump into one of those or

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Jacob Stoops: Hold on, I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask about link building and what it’s like, because we’ve had. I feel like a lot of the people that we have on tend to lean technical

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Jacob Stoops: More so than more so than anything. And we’ve had a few that have come on from the content and link building

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Jacob Stoops: Side of the house. And as somebody that’s been doing that for a long time. I guess I would ask you, Sarah, what’s, what is that like, and how do you feel like that has shaped your

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Jacob Stoops: Perspective on the available, I would say the available options to you as an SEO because I feel like there are some people that just don’t do link building because they either think it’s bad or risky or just not something they’re comfortable doing so, like, how is

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Jeff Louella: None of them.

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Sarah McDowell: Oh really, well, I mean, so obviously when I, when I first got into SEO and I was doing link building. I am going to put my hands up and say that I did.

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Sarah McDowell: And I mean I don’t do it anymore. But I did tend to do more with the

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Sarah McDowell: The bad, sort of, well, not the bad but like them, you know, the more spammy ways of lie on a forum and you get like a link and somehow or you just go on that directories and and you know like back in the day, sort of,

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Sarah McDowell: link building that worked. Where is now. And Google has sort of Google is prioritizing sort of quality and value of the link and relevancy as well.

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Sarah McDowell: And so I have found so obviously because of that link building nowadays. It takes a lot more time and a lot more effort needs to

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Sarah McDowell: Go into it, but you do get rewarded and link links are always going to be the bread and butter, because that’s you hear that a lot of data that or you don’t need to link build anymore.

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Sarah McDowell: That’s not SEO. You don’t need to. But you still do, it’s still going to be one of those fundamentals, it’s still going to be one of the things that Google looks at

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Sarah McDowell: And and there’s different ways that you can go about link building. And so, for example,

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Sarah McDowell: One way that I will always do is I always do competitive research at first. So using tools to find out where where competitors have got links and seeing where I can

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Sarah McDowell: My right like opportunities for my clients. And I also think of content. So obviously, and creating high value content that shareable and it’s not just like a boring.

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Sarah McDowell: Boring Stuff, but things like content that’s actually going to make someone stop and read and think, Okay, this is going to help me so I don’t know you doing original research or doing something that that’s emotional. So whether it’s funny. If it’s and makes you cry sort of thing.

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Sarah McDowell: And so obviously when you’ve put your time aside to put together this content. It’s then reaching out and to then get people to link to it. Also, there’s another way. So say you’re doing an expert piece and you could invite

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Sarah McDowell: Seven experts in your industry and to contribute to a piece you then outreach to them and let them know because they’ll link back to you sort of thing. And I mean, I do think

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Sarah McDowell: There is a tendency that some companies will think, oh, if I make content that is really valuable and really good links will just come to me.

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Sarah McDowell: Where is is as idealistic as that is, you do need some work. And you do need to put it in front of people and tell people about it.

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Sarah McDowell: And but yeah so but you could also do something that’s a bit PR and so Brighton SEO and there was a talk by Oliver Brett who works at Screaming Frog.

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Sarah McDowell: And and he was like showing how you can sort of use fake news. Now I know fake news sort of gets a bit of a bad rap. But there is times where you can

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Sarah McDowell: Buy fake news as. Okay. So, for example, and like, I don’t know. And there was a football game and championship game or something and

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Sarah McDowell: And it was a it was England vs FRANCE, IT WAS THIS T shirt that would have the England flag. But then when you’re around people from France In France supporters, it would turn into a French flag.

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Sarah McDowell: And they put this product on the website, obviously it wasn’t a real product. It was just something fun.

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Sarah McDowell: And and yeah they got that into the news and people wanted to link build to it and another good example that I’ve seen. And so, Carrie Rose, who heads up an agency link building agency and who has been a

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Sarah McDowell: guest on our show. And so there’s game in the UK and they came up together they came up with a Christmas, Christmas dinner so is Christmas dinner.

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Sarah McDowell: All in a can, for gamers and and then I optimize the site for that and did a vegan and veggie virgin version and then reached out to

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Sarah McDowell: The PR and newspapers and stuff like that and like the genome or large Bible and again they so I don’t know, I feel like I’m blabbing but I don’t know if that’s given some insight that yeah

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Jacob Stoops: I think the key is in today’s world, like the the easy stuff. It just doesn’t work. It’s the stuff that you had that it’s hard and link building shouldn’t be hard in in any links that you’re building should be hard one. And you should have to be creative and I think

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Jacob Stoops: Those tend to be the ones that at least Google says that they value, more so than the ones that are a little bit more artificial in spammy. But one thing I wanted to say is when people talk about link building a lot of folks really think about it from an external

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Jacob Stoops: Standpoint, in terms of third party site linking to your website. And when I I think about link building. I think one of the most underrated aspects of link building is internal links.

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Sarah McDowell: Yes.

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Jacob Stoops: Or no link building right

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Sarah McDowell: A lot of

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Jacob Stoops: I’m dealing with a situation right now where we’ve got on one of my clients. We went from not having a lot of pages that talked about their product to over the course of this year, building those out.

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Jacob Stoops: The problem exist is exists is that they talk about their product on their on their blog quite a lot, but because these product pages are so new, they don’t have a lot of links within the site.

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Jeff Louella: Yes.

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Jeff Louella: Okay, let’s take this these

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Jacob Stoops: thousand or so blog pages because you’re not putting these product links in your navigation yet so they’re not site wide. Well, let’s increase the importance by

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Jacob Stoops: Looking at any time you’re mentioning the product in your blog post, but it’s not linked and you can pretty easily use screening frogs not

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Sarah McDowell: Interaction search feature to go and look

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Jacob Stoops: For any instances of where you’re mentioning a specific word or phrase across your website and boom, those are unlinked dimensions within your own website easy and there’s

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Jeff Louella: A there’s actually WordPress plugins that would actually if these were

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Jeff Louella: Just as your blog that would, you would automatically just say these are the terms link here and it anytime a blog post was written.

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Jeff Louella: It would do that at Zappos actually used to do that internally when foot product reviews.

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Jeff Louella: Anytime. If you would say like these Nike sneakers are awesome and they would just highlight Nike automatically in a review like as a reviewer. I’m not linking to that page.

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Jeff Louella: I think they recently stopped doing that probably little spammy but but it was internal so there was one of those where they weren’t linking out there, creating internal links that way. So,

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s go. Oh, go ahead. Sarah.

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Sarah McDowell: No, I was just gonna say, I think a lot of businesses, Miss, miss a big opportunity with their homepage with internal linking

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Sarah McDowell: And especially like seasonal and opportunities. So if you’ve got a Christmas promotion or Christmas products that over the Christmas season, for example, or that’s all the way around, or maybe

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Sarah McDowell: You’ve put together this really good bit of content that is adding value. It’s got research. It’s got experts and people just forget to use the homepage to link to it because

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Sarah McDowell: And so, Hannah co host of the SEO SAS podcast came up with a really nice analogy. So when you’re thinking of like internal linking. You got to think of the homepage is the trunk. So that’s the core. And that’s the structure

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Sarah McDowell: And then you’ve got the branches. The first lots of branches and that’s sort of like your first

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Sarah McDowell: Two pages that are coming off that and then you’ve got a leaves as well, which you child pages. And I thought that was a nice way to think of how like how you sigh in the sort of how you can use it sort of thing.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, and and it that actually as you were saying that reminded me of some of the newer visualization tools that some of the crawlers have come out with. And I’ve never thought of it as like an actual tree, but

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Jacob Stoops: Start thinking about it.

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Jacob Stoops: That way.

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Sarah McDowell: It just makes sense because like your home. I think people forget and I mean this is a bugbear of mine is when people don’t like we don’t need much text on the homepage. That’s just have like put your pictures and it’s just like now.

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Sarah McDowell: That is just a missed opportunity there. And yeah, so I mean

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Jacob Stoops: Most powerful page people

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Jacob Stoops: What people can’t see is me shaking

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Jacob Stoops: Not actually shaking myself but shaking up a fake client.

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Sarah McDowell: And one more. One more point on this is some people. I did have a conversation with a client. And they were just like they didn’t. They were worried that

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Sarah McDowell: Their homepage was going to be too long, like scrolling wise and it was like that is the that’s the wrong point here that it wasn’t even that long at all. But yeah.

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Jeff Louella: It was funny. A check our website that had like this gigantic like look like an HTML site map at the bottom of their homepage.

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Jeff Louella: With like every link to their whole site. I just went to go pulled up the kind of talk about it, and it seemed like they remove that it might have been just for the holidays. They put that in there so

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Jeff Louella: It was a company off of Amazon own called eating. I like to go in Amazon’s footer and look at all the companies they list every company, they kind of own or work with at the bottom and

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Jeff Louella: It was one. I was like, I never heard of this one. And I clicked on it and it, it literally was a hero image and then like an HTML site map underneath it for every single like category product page they had

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Jeff Louella: Which I kind of liked because it got me through the site as quick as I could.

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Sarah McDowell: Again, no point in being

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Jeff Louella: You and I think that’s probably why they did it. So it was interesting. It’s not there now.

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Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I, I, I’ve got one more question, because I know you’re chomping at the bit to get to the news and I know that I also have a rant. So I want to get to that.

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Jacob Stoops: But Sarah, you mentioned you were, you were at an agency, not at you created an agency and then you decided not to do it anymore. Like what, what went into into that.

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Sarah McDowell: Okay, so basically I’m always up for trying something new, which is why I do a podcast. That’s how I got into roller derby. And so I’m always if someone says. Also, why don’t you try. I’m gonna try basically so

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Sarah McDowell: It was after a conversation. So when I went at my last service in house. For this list, as I mentioned earlier,

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Sarah McDowell: And they were mentioning that they were going to get rid of internal marketing and outsource at all. So obviously I had to go and find myself for the job and I, my boss at the time, not the boss now, but he was really

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Sarah McDowell: It was just quite an inspirational because he he was just like Sarah, you’ve got so I obviously had some connections still

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Sarah McDowell: And with the clients from that business because even though. Yes, I worked internally for DHL we also had like another branch which offered external marketing services.

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Sarah McDowell: And I saw and I had good relationships with the clients and and my boss at the time, just like you should try going on your own.

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Sarah McDowell: When you go on your own. It’s not like you have to start from scratch. You’ve already got it was about three or four clients to start with.

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Sarah McDowell: And when I approached them and said look, and the company is closing but I decided to go on my own. And would you

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Sarah McDowell: If I, if that’s the case, which would be happy if I carried on. And everyone was supportive and they’re like, Yes. And so, yeah, I did that for a bit and

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Sarah McDowell: The company, may I made profit which I’m told in your first year, not many businesses do

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Sarah McDowell: But because it was digital. I didn’t really have that many costs, overhead costs. So it was quite lucrative isn’t it is the word is

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Sarah McDowell: And and yeah and it just got to a point where yes, I was making money and I could pay the bills and I had this flexibility. I just got lonely and I because I’m

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Sarah McDowell: I like being part of a team and I just felt like I missed having conversations with that because obviously I could have conversations

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Sarah McDowell: online or at live events and stuff but I missed the live internal conversations where you also have

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Sarah McDowell: You care about this one thing that you’re working towards, and it was if something bad happened and which is part and parcel of owning a business that failed on me something good happened. It was like a one person party.

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Sarah McDowell: And yeah, it just got to a point where I just decided that being a savvy business, business woman wasn’t for me and and yeah decided to but and I did speak to. So when I was going through that and running my business.

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Sarah McDowell: I did know my boss now at my my media Paul and I was always honest with him. And that’s when he was like, well,

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Sarah McDowell: You can come and work for, for me, and you still have the flexibility but you have the support and you’ll be working with a team and and that, so. So yes, I can say that I’ve tried it, but it wasn’t for me basically

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Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s tough. I mean, even just running a team can be tough, but let alone having to

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Jeff Louella: Deal with people live people’s livelihood and things like that. It’s I it’s funny. I always had the in my head, I’m like, I always want to start a business.

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Jeff Louella: And then I get to positions where I need to like I’m in charge of someone like whether they have a paycheck.

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Jeff Louella: And things like that and it gets a little scary sometimes and I realized like, you know, I, I’m really great at solving problems and solving like

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Jeff Louella: Technical issues on SEOs for SEO and things like that. I’m not great at HR, that is the one thing that you really need to be to

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Jeff Louella: To to run a company right it’s more you have to be a people person and and sometimes I just don’t have that empathy and me when the little I’m just like, Is your work done know and it’s like, well, I don’t care about anything else. And it’s not the right way to do it because

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Jeff Louella: I know like I need to connect a little bit better with my co workers, let alone if I was actually the one in charge of everything in there so it. I totally get wanting to go back and being part of part of the team and

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Jeff Louella: There’s a special breed, to be able to run it all.

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Sarah McDowell: And it’s like when because when you’re in a team. You can you can stay up to date with stuff that’s happening more because you have conversations date. Yeah. And or say you want to try some new

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Sarah McDowell: I’m always like, I always think it’s good to get a second opinion or just wouldn’t do ideas with someone else or get get someone’s the perspective or the point of view. And I just felt like I didn’t really have that when I was on on my own. I mean, get your small violin out for me.

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Sarah McDowell: I’m much better.

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Sarah McDowell: Rather than yeah I’m about to be in part of a team and having security of not being my own boss.

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Jeff Louella: Right. I think my part of my issue is I treat everyone equally. And he can when you’re in equally as in like mean you can do the same amount of work or same everything and

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Jeff Louella: When you’re the CEO, I would expect everyone to be CEO.

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Jeff Louella: So that’s it for part

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Sarah McDowell: One of our one of our clients and that they one of their things that they say is that they don’t have a business hierarchy, which I think is

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Sarah McDowell: Quite interesting so it’s like a flat structure. I think it’s a trend that businesses. Try and know how it’s like over the pond sort of thing.

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Sarah McDowell: And this idea that everyone is the same and, naturally, you do get leaders, don’t you, but the fact is that everyone is sort of treated equally, as it were, and and yeah I thought that was really interesting to have his case, we

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Jeff Louella: Were in a fairly flat organization Jake and I, and it has its pluses and minuses. And you know, I think when it comes down to if everyone is equal, then yeah, you need to have those natural leaders come out to to be able to run things and

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Jeff Louella: Though I think when your natural leader at that point. It’s like, you like to be crammed a leader in a way and edify the organization. You’re not so it’s

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Jeff Louella: I think there are some people who are definitely we have different titles and different levels.

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Jeff Louella: But when it comes to like reporting, we have two major departments with two major department heads and they kind of are in charge of all the direct you know raises and promotions and things like that everyone else is pretty much equal underneath there, even though there are levels of

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Jeff Louella: Positions, it really comes down to, like, what kind of work, you’ll be doing and

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Jeff Louella: But when it comes down to the HR type of stuff. You are all equal. So

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Jacob Stoops: How much scratch you’re making. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: And let me tell you in flat companies like don’t let anybody fool you, everybody’s not equal.

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Jacob Stoops: The CEO and the upper level people like they’re making the most scratch. All right, they’re making the most money. So I’ve got my. I’m not going to go on a rant. Here I’ve got my problems with flat organizations like

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t have a problem with search discovery and their, their format. It’s much more hierarchical than the last place I came from, in which I had a real real big problem.

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Jacob Stoops: With the level of flatness in the organization and the lack of advancement and money advancement opportunities. So anyways, yeah. Let’s go to the news.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, and I’ve kind of flows right into this. You kind of HR owning an agency being in charge of hiring.

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Jeff Louella: I don’t know if everyone’s seen, but Bill hearts are kind of put out a question on Twitter yesterday.

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Jeff Louella: Basically saying if I was hiring someone for an SEO position. What questions what I asked him, and then he goes and says he’ll start and his first question would be,

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Jeff Louella: What is the Google Florida update and why was it so significant part of the SEO history and basically says if they can answer that he’ll hire the wrong spot and followed by a million responses about how he’s old school and a boomer

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Jeff Louella: And different things in there, but I guess question would have, like, you know, if it’s a good question. In general, and I think we all have different ways of of hiring and you know me personally when it comes to

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Jeff Louella: When I am kind of in charge of hiring and when I’ve had positions where I was.

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Jeff Louella: Solely in charge of hiring I’m, I’m a very

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Jeff Louella: Like I say bad, but I am. I’m not gonna say thorough either but I make people do presentations.

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Jeff Louella: I like to give them a site and say whether it’s your first SEO job or you’re coming in as a director. I like to give you

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Jeff Louella: A project and basically say, because I’m going to learn. Way more than your resume shows me

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Jeff Louella: When you sit down and tell me what’s wrong with the site and I’m never saying like, give me a two hour presentation. It’s always like 30 minutes

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Jeff Louella: If you are for the brand new in SEO. Maybe it’s give me you know presentation on five reasons why contents. Good.

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Jeff Louella: Another one, like if you were coming in more advanced, I will give you a site that I know not only ever use my own clients, cuz I don’t want to seem like I’m trying to get free work.

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Jeff Louella: But I’ll pick a site out there and just say, Hey, here’s a website, you know, give me a quick audit and then present me your findings and that way I can see your thinking behind everything

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Jeff Louella: So I actually before even as questions that I like to have a good presentation. Like, I’m like client, because then I know if I could stick someone in front of a client.

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Jeff Louella: But when it comes to questions like, What kind of questions do you all ask

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Sarah McDowell: Oh, is it is it me fast.

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Jeff Louella: There you go. We’ll go you first, sir.

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Sarah McDowell: Hey, I am so, so just confirm the question. So what so

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Jeff Louella: You know, if you were when you were hiring someone what kind of questions would you ask them.

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Sarah McDowell: Okay, so I would ask and first and foremost there. So if life experiences.

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Sarah McDowell: And and what what they’ve done in in SEO sort of thing. And what what what what are the challenges that they’ve found just just talk to them and have a conversation, because I think

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Sarah McDowell: When you have a honest face to face conversation with someone, it’s quite obvious straight away, whether they know what they’re talking about, or not.

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Sarah McDowell: And so a thing. And then I also am so depending when the conversations happened I might bring up like the latest updates that have happened.

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Sarah McDowell: Because obviously, Google is always updating its algorithm. And it’s constantly changing and the times where an update will be given a name is because it’s affected or this is my understanding, though.

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Sarah McDowell: But it’s affected enough sites that there’s been enough chatter chatter in the industry.

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Sarah McDowell: And then all of a sudden, we’ve got a name for it sort of thing. So, so I’ll have that conversation and see. Okay. Because if you are passionate about SEO. And one thing that you’re going to be on the lookout for is how it’s changing you I mean

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Sarah McDowell: And and other things as well. So not just Google’s core algorithm, but other things. So, for example, bet and how

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Sarah McDowell: How Google can now use that to better understand and users intent and keywords and stuff like that. So having conversations like that.

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Sarah McDowell: And I’d also ask them sort of their, their goals and their aspirations sort of thing and where they want to be and what they want to do.

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Sarah McDowell: And I’d like some proof like some. I don’t know if they could come to the interview and sort of say, this is what I’m really proud of this is, this is what I did for a client.

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Sarah McDowell: And this was the results. And this is why it’s so good sort of thing. Because I think if you’ve got proof of what they’ve done. And because there’s a lot of people who can talk the talk isn’t there.

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Sarah McDowell: But when it actually comes to doing it. So it’d be good to actually see some proof of that. And, and I don’t know. I mean, maybe check them out a bit before so I see if they’ve got like a Twitter profile or a LinkedIn profile or and just see what sort of

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Sarah McDowell: If they’re getting involved in SEO to to chatter or and things like that.

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Sarah McDowell: And I don’t know, and

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Jeff Louella: No, that’s great. I think

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Jeff Louella: It’s funny, I take an approach like that to an extent where I get to try to just know the person because I know if I am working with them. I need to at least like them so they might have all the answers.

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Jeff Louella: And might be an amazing at that. But if we just don’t click. It’s not going to be fun for everybody. Right, so

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Sarah McDowell: No date you straight off, whether you’re going to click with someone

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Sarah McDowell: Or not.

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Jeff Louella: And within

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Sarah McDowell: A few jokes now.

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Jeff Louella: Time for bed dad jokes to so

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Jacob Stoops: The thing about interviews is like, I find it really difficult to assess somebody’s quality.

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Jacob Stoops: In a 30 minute interview or even an hour interview right you often don’t know somebody real true quality in terms of how they’re going to perform at work.

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Jacob Stoops: So you’ve worked with them for quite a while. So the for me. The, the basis of a, of an interview is do they seem to know what they’re talking about. Do they click in terms of their, their fit within both the role as well as where they’re going to be working

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Jacob Stoops: Are they, and I think this one’s really important are they naturally curious, do they want to learn more.

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Jacob Stoops: Do they have ambition. Are they competitive. Do they have Dr. Sarah. I also think, is it, it’s really important that they show

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Jacob Stoops: In this is what I find missing from most resumes that I look at actual tangible examples that prove out the results that you’ve actually driven results because you’re right.

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Jacob Stoops: Some people do talk a big game and then you get them in and you find that they’ve just got no clue. And they’re just faking it until they

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Sarah McDowell: Take it.

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Right.

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Jacob Stoops: I will say that this um so this tweet from Bill. I don’t know if he meant to like set off.

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Jacob Stoops: Set off the the Twitter swarm that can sometimes

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Jacob Stoops: Eat its own eat its own younger. Sometimes you have to watch out for SEO Twitter, man. If you say the wrong thing. They will

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Jacob Stoops: They will come after you. And so I want to be very clear. I don’t want to be

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Jacob Stoops: Perceived as like coming after Bill BC. So I’ve never met him, but he seems like a nice guy.

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Jacob Stoops: The question. So what is the Google Florida update and why was it such a significant part of SEO history to me in 2019 it’s like asking

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Jacob Stoops: A high schooler about a rotary phone like and why it’s so important to cell phones today and it’s just like, Okay, like I love history. I’m a huge history buff and and I’m a believer that if you don’t, if you aren’t aware of history, you’re not going to recognize it when it is

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Jacob Stoops: Coming back around in today’s age. However, this is not the same thing. This is apples to oranges in the Google Florida update. Not only has never played a role.

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Jacob Stoops: In in terms of my SEO work. I will say that it’s kind of like what is it back to the future with the timeline. So like if Google Florida update doesn’t happen then Google Panda in Google Penguin and all of these other

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Jacob Stoops: Needs never happen. Right. So it had to happen. And I’m glad it happened. But this thing happened in like the early 2000s before like 95% of the people that work in SEO are were even even thinking about SEO.

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Jacob Stoops: It was barely a thing. So like to ask somebody

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Jacob Stoops: If they remember that it’s like, Well, no, because I was in college or high school like no no not relevant, how they do their job today.

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Sarah McDowell: Show me. It’s better if someone can demonstrate like things that are happening now, or kitty chatter about what’s going to happen in the future and being hung up, and I think it’s a bit like traditionalist, isn’t it, I suppose, if that’s the right word to use.

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Sarah McDowell: But I do think some SEO is do you get a bit caught up on. I don’t know, like knowing your stuff and

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Sarah McDowell: I mean, I couldn’t sit and tell you, like all the updates that have happened you know i mean like

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Sarah McDowell: I do understand that and I’ve looked into me search how Google has an search engines and the internet has evolved because I find that interesting and but getting hung up on putting someone on the spot and being like, Tommy, what this is right now. Do you know what I mean, it’s just

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Sarah McDowell: It doesn’t feel. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: The last thing I’ll say, and I do want to move into the, into talking about the podcast is like

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Jacob Stoops: It’s not a freakin pop quiz. Right, we’re doing SEO, and for the most part, like, very few of my clients have ever been significantly impacted by

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Jacob Stoops: An algorithm update. And not only that, like my clients their problems tend to be way, way, way, way, way more basic and way more fundamental than

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Jacob Stoops: All of this stuff, especially Google Florida in which one no client has ever asked me about that and to I’ve only ever heard one other SEO outside of maybe SEO Twitter a few times actually mentioned it to me in an office setting.

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Jacob Stoops: And he mentioned it to me because he was reminiscing about the old days.

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Sarah McDowell: It just

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Sarah McDowell: It just fine today.

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Jacob Stoops: And that was it.

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Jeff Louella: So neither of you are getting hired just telling you because

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, suggested that they would walk out at the interview and I don’t think that I would do that but

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Jeff Louella: I mean, I honestly I think the answer is, hey, there’s been a million of them. I’d have to look that one back up but i mean i i was in the business that time but I I’m lucky I haven’t gotten hit by a couple algorithm updates, but only a couple over the last, you know, 1015 years so

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Jeff Louella: Nothing there was

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Jeff Louella: Nothing was irreversible and you know it’s like a lot of times it’s like hey your site’s not the quality like i mean i

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Jeff Louella: Don’t I didn’t even look up, Florida, but I can tell you, like that. It’s probably something to do with your site was not great quality or the links pointing seems like that’s what it is about

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Jeff Louella: So,

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Sarah McDowell: I do, I do have to believe them. And that same figure. So every time that Google was out a new update or changes the algorithm or do something different is all about make it better in the experience for the user.

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Sarah McDowell: As long as you’re doing that with your website. And that’s your goal, you should be all right with like penalties and stuff like, don’t get me wrong, you

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Sarah McDowell: People do get hit, and it’s completely unintentional because yeah like just happens, isn’t it, and the SEO world. But if you’re there, providing value.

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Sarah McDowell: Your website is accessible. You’re not deceiving Googled you know i mean like the key things if you’re always doing those those sort of things, then you should you should be okay.

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Sarah McDowell: You should. I mean, it’s a big should lie, but yeah.

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Sarah McDowell: So,

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Jacob Stoops: Tell us about your podcast, because I want to make sure we’ve got about 17 minutes left. And I’m going to apologize to the audience. I have a hard stop and that was bad planning on my part, but I want to make sure we talked about the SEO, SEM podcast.

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Sarah McDowell: I’m okay. Okay, well, yes. And so the SEO SAS podcast. And so it came on, it was born. And because me and my friend Hannah and I actually worked with her. So I know her.

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Sarah McDowell: And but we, it was a couple of years ago, and we were at Brighton SEO and like the big conference in the UK. And we saw that the SEO so of so attendees and speakers at the time.

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Sarah McDowell: Tend to be like male orientated. And that seemed to be like if you look to the ratio between male speakers and FEMALE SPEAKERS mayo.

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Sarah McDowell: Attendees and female attendees. It was more. So the males, it was, it seemed to be a male dominated industry at the time, obviously it’s getting better and better as time time is going on.

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Sarah McDowell: And but at the same time, you also saw a niche for a female lead SEO podcast and because we because after

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Sarah McDowell: After we went to Brighton SEO and we had this conversation. And then when I looked into podcasts. I had a conversation with Hannah was just like we’ve got an opportunity here.

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Sarah McDowell: And there’s there’s not that much female lead SEO really like just SEO podcast. And I think this is an opportunity and and I was quite passionate about it because

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Sarah McDowell: I wanted to like showcase other amazing females in the SEO community. And I also wanted to I think SEO gets a bad rap for being boring. And that’s the joke in our office anyway.

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Sarah McDowell: But yeah, and I wanted to sort of be like, no, it can actually be some sort of furnace in inspiring and yeah and it doesn’t, it’s not boring at all.

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Sarah McDowell: And and yes and what and why why outs, I think, Well, yes, we just thought we needed. We just needed to do it and we love to talk about SEO as well. So we thought why don’t we put together a podcast. And yeah, as I explained it enough that

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Jacob Stoops: It’s kind of like what I think is interesting about SEO podcasts if if clients or if if you’re somebody that needs SEO. If you want to know like how the SEOs talk if you were

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Jacob Stoops: If you wanted to be like a fly on the wall and you want to know how does an SEO talk about SEO to another SEO. That’s one reason I would think to listen to Sarah’s podcast, as well as to ours, because of

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Jacob Stoops: What we really think when and when that sometimes comes comes through to you as a as a client or in house to whoever we’re delivering the recommendations to it’s kind of a filtered version of that. And this is a little bit more on filtered, I would say.

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Sarah McDowell: Transparent we

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Sarah McDowell: Transparency and yeah and I mean it’s just about having a bit of fun and educating people because as well and as a lot of businesses, small businesses that don’t have the budget to have a marketing team or high marketing. So

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Sarah McDowell: There are some things that you can do like nine times out of 10 leave SEO.

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Sarah McDowell: And SEM professional likes you don’t want to break stuff, but there are, if we can at least be educating businesses and they can start thinking about it because

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Sarah McDowell: There’s a lot of businesses that have thought about all or they’ve heard of the term SEO or they know that they need to do it, but they don’t really quite understand it. They don’t quite get it. So we like to sort of present it in a way

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Sarah McDowell: That is accessible and it’s all I could do that or that makes sense to me or no that is a priority, I need to prioritize this for my website.

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Sarah McDowell: And and we’ve had some really awesome conversations. And don’t get me wrong. We do I know I said about like getting it was a female lead wanted to showcase females, but we do invite and males on as well. Don’t worry.

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Sarah McDowell: Just had amazing people on who are just the people that we get on just want to share knowledge or share their experiences and that is so priceless in this industry and we’ve had

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Sarah McDowell: So today I actually recorded a podcast with a lady Claire Carlisle who helps her thing is helping small businesses grow by making the most out of local SEO.

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Sarah McDowell: And and it was just so just having a conversation about the possibilities of local SEO and Google my business pages and stuff. We spoke to carry Rose who

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Sarah McDowell: Is awesome at she’s a creative SEO agency and their thing is about getting links by doing awesome creative content and some of the things that night talking to her was just amazing as well. We’ve had Sophie Cali on who

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Sarah McDowell: Talk to us about search listening. So the idea behind not getting caught up on keywords and search volumes, but more. What is it, what is it that people are

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Sarah McDowell: Wanting to know about what are the topics sort of thing and and biting content that sort of answers those questions. We’ve also had a lady on who talked about gamification and how

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Sarah McDowell: How that can help with links to your site. And another way of creating really good content. And then we had the lady merely king who came on, who gave talks obviously site speed Page Speed is a big factor with SEO.

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Sarah McDowell: And she came on with life. So she wrote for search engine watch a piece with practical tips and tools to how to do it. So,

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Sarah McDowell: We’re all about like inviting people on to talk about stuff. And we don’t. Sometimes it’s just me and Hannah, who will debate stuff. So, for example, or debate, the

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Sarah McDowell: ongoing debate of what’s better long short long or short content sort of thing. And we’ll talk about internal linking we’ll talk about competitive research. So it’s a bit of a generalist podcast where we just discussed. And yeah, basically.

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Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. So I’m kind of lucky that I came in on season two. Because Jacob really did a lot of the getting things off the ground and and just starting from zero, right. So I got I got the come in and

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Jeff Louella: All that stuff was already set so that that was, you know, easy for me. Of course, because it was easy to say yes.

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Jeff Louella: Because I’d have to do all that groundwork. So what are some of the things that like learning and challenges that you had from just like starting the podcast from zero and getting it to where it is now.

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Sarah McDowell: Yes, and listeners.

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Sarah McDowell: Yeah, and I say to you put. So obviously, we had this brain wave and maybe we may have had a few wines, remember that. Oh my god, this is amazing idea we’re going to get loads of listens on our first episode.

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Sarah McDowell: And it doesn’t I and it took some time. I mean, wear a year on now and we’ve reached I think we’ve just been 7000 total downloads and we get, I don’t know, this would be being very transparent and I don’t know about your guys numbers, but

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Jeff Louella: And millions, millions

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Sarah McDowell: Millions admit that same as

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Sarah McDowell: We get around 150 to about 300 people

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Sarah McDowell: per episode sort of thing and and it has been hard to grow it. And at first it is just your mom listening and

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Sarah McDowell: Every episode. My mom would like what’s that mean okay podcast. I don’t know what you’re quite talking about but you sounded. Wonderful. Um, but yeah and so

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Sarah McDowell: It was it was hard, but we just put the time and effort into it and you do lie. You do have to think outside the box of how to get your podcast underneath people so

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Sarah McDowell: I spent plenty and evening, just on LinkedIn messaging people about the podcast or another way was like inviting people with whoever who already have a following to come on, because then you’re like okay there.

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Sarah McDowell: And that has helped I think peaks and valleys numbers and we mentioned recently did some research. So we did

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Sarah McDowell: Research based around local SEO where we were talking to those who market local businesses and we wanted to understand, like, day to day activities and challenges. And so we did a survey I have paid as well, like I did some paid advertising.

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Sarah McDowell: So yes, getting listeners is hard, especially at the beginning and

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Sarah McDowell: If I believe that if your podcast is entertaining educational people are going to just not shit, basically, people are going to want to listen.

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Sarah McDowell: And stuff and other challenges is so obviously it is a side hustle. So you have to factor in okay when recording editing and there’s the research that goes in as the

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Sarah McDowell: Sort of talking to your guests when they’re going to come on. So there is a lot. At first, I was a bit naive and I was like, be easy. No, it wouldn’t take much time at all. Just sit in front of a microphone do bit talking and jobs are good and I was wrong.

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Sarah McDowell: It’s a lot more than just that. And I’m say I’m guessing you guys can relate to that. Like the wackier

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Jeff Louella: I mean, I go, I go to iTunes all the time or the podcast app now and just type in SEO and then waiting for us to the show up there.

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Jeff Louella: In the top you know 50 at least. And I think it’s new to me in the SEO side of things, right, because it’s working on Google working on, you know, just search engines in general for a while that now trying to like get a podcast to rank in a podcast app.

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Jeff Louella: It’s not you know is I, I’m still learning right and we still haven’t cracked that nut to there’s some think there’s one podcasts that has like three episodes but ranks like number three in the podcast app for some reason on iTunes and it’s like, why are you there like you have

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Jeff Louella: Four years and you only put three episodes, only one of them had to do with SEO, but yet you rank up there so I’m hoping like the new podcasts how apples breaking it out, out of iTunes now gets a better algorithm that update those

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Jeff Louella: Those, I think, some are trash and there’s no way to really, I’m not going to negative attack and other and other podcasts, but the same time i like i you know we’re really trying to focus on getting our like hey, leave a review, you know, follow us certainly subscribe and things like that.

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Sarah McDowell: How awesome is it when I say when we got our first ever review. Oh my gosh, it was like champagne at the ready because

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Sarah McDowell: And that was, that’s a little bit. So when you first doing the podcast and you, you have no idea how

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Sarah McDowell: Like how it’s going really, like, yes, you can look at numbers. And how many people are listening, but it’s not until you get reviews or even like people reaching out saying I this is an awesome podcast I remember the first time we’ve got an email.

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Sarah McDowell: And I yeah i i lost. I lost it because I was like, Oh my God, but it’s like when people are saying good stuff about your podcast and that gives you more reason doesn’t it to carry on.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, definitely.

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Jeff Louella: So we’re gonna wrap this up and be respectful of everybody’s time but we used to. We usually ask a question at the end of every podcast and

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Jeff Louella: Would this is going to be the question this time. So it’s usually about what kind of advice would you give we usually make a general about SEO, but I want to make it more about podcasting. So what would be one piece of advice you would give someone who wanted to start a podcast.

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Jeff Louella: Tomorrow, you know, what was the first thing or the best piece of advice you can give them

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Sarah McDowell: Make sure is the topic that you’re passionate about and you really can get your teeth stuck into it and you just going to live and believe it because if you’re not passionate about something, you’re just not going to make it work and

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Sarah McDowell: That is the top. And yeah, just make it, make it educational make it fun. Don’t be shared and yeah

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Sarah McDowell: A bit swearing.

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Jeff Louella: I already filled that I don’t

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Jacob Stoops: Care about. Don’t be no good life.

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Jeff Louella: Is good life.

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Sarah McDowell: And but yeah and I mean yeah and I mean I’m I would definitely recommend if you want to do a podcast, definitely do it because you just get like for this conversation right now.

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Sarah McDowell: It’s been amazing. And your gut guys podcast in is so good in I was a bit nervous when you invited me onto yours because I thought, Oh my gosh, I’m gonna have to really work.

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Jeff Louella: We don’t know what we’re doing. We’re just

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Jeff Louella: winging it all the time.

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Sarah McDowell: But yeah, definitely, if you want to start podcast tomorrow. Just make sure you’ve got a topic that you’re passionate about and you’ve got a lie and spend a bit of time on your graphic as well. I’d say that because you need that to like popped in here in the

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Sarah McDowell: Search and format as well. I think of a format. So we, for example, our format is we will have a feature it at the end to make it like fun, and it’s normally Hannah testimony on like my general knowledge which I have no no so

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Sarah McDowell: But yeah, I mean, I think I gave more than one bit of advice there. Sorry.

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Jeff Louella: That’s good bonus. Bonus material. Yeah. Awesome. Love. Love. The. I want to thank you for coming on the show. It’s been great. We’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I was typing the Jake eggs like I could talk to people from the UK all day.

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Jeff Louella: I just love it. But, uh, yeah, thanks for coming on the show and

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Jeff Louella: Everyone else like I’m not sure where this is coming out, but I’m happy holidays. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be coming out in a few weeks. We’re trying. We’ve had some scheduling snafu we’re trying to space out the the episodes. So we’re recording three episodes in one

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Jacob Stoops: Week. But nonetheless, go and connect with Sarah go find her podcast. Listen, listen, listen, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on.

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Sarah McDowell: Thank you very much for having me.

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Jacob Stoops: All right, bye everybody. Thank you.

#34: Casie Gillette

Episode Summary

We talk with Casie Gillette, Sr. Director of Digital at KoMarketing. We discuss:
  • How she got her start in marketing working for an online dating site in the mid 2000s literally handing out flyers in clubs, which actually led to her first SEO job which is ultimately where she fell in love with it
  • How she got to KoMarketing, how she left and then boomeranged right back
  • In-house versus agency
  • Her biggest SEO challenges
  • Convincing clients to get recommendations implemented
  • How she learned to be a confident public speaker
  • The recent SEO’s are assholes kerfuffle
  • The importance of SEO training and education

And much more.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops here again with the Page 2 Podcast and I am joined by Mr. Jeff Louella. Jeff, how’s it going?

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Jeff Louella: Hey everybody. How you doing?

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Jacob Stoops: Good. Jeff you changed it up that time.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: We, it’s like, Hey, how are you, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: Hey, like out. What is it out Borland

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Jacob Stoops: And yeah, that’s funny. We’re getting better.

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Jeff Louella: You’re getting better. And now I’m trying to figure it out.

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Jacob Stoops: And we are also joined by Casie Gillette, how’s it going, Casie.

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Casie Gillette: Hey, howdy, I think you’re too old time reference might be overlooked.

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Casie Gillette: Cast. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, Jeff reminds of Al Borland

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, his

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Jacob Stoops: Side hobbies, and he’s do-gooder.

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Just like out

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Jacob Stoops: Um, so, Casie is the Senior Director of digital at KoMarketing and is really awesome guests. I’ve said this, I think, to a few guests. So I don’t want you to feel like you’re not at all special because you are special and

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Casie Gillette: You sound like my mother.

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Right.

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Jeff Louella: Very special

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Jacob Stoops: But know when we were setting out to when I was setting out over a year ago to do this podcast. And when we kind of sat down for for season two.

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Jacob Stoops: You are definitely on the on the list of people that we wanted to talk to in in there’s a there’s a massive like we basically want to talk to everybody in SEO, but but

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Casie Gillette: It does really, really making me feel good here.

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We’re definitely

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Casie Gillette: I made Season two. That’s exciting. Thank you for having me. Yes. You made it to season to

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Jeff Louella: Meet you in

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Jacob Stoops: Season Season one was entirely just me trying to figure figure stuff out live on the internet. So anyways,

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Casie Gillette: That’s our job. That’s our job is search marketers anyway.

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Jacob Stoops: Well, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s basically 25 hours of me just gabbing gabbing online and I decided to bring Jeff in to talk with me so

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Jeff Louella: Just for my intro

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah. So in terms of what we’re going to be

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Jacob Stoops: Covering today. So we’ve got a great agenda, first and foremost, we’re going to talk to. Casie about her background and then we are going to cover a little bit of SEO news, surprise, surprise, there was another kerfuffle in the industry.

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Jacob Stoops: Always industry seems to always have a kerfuffle probably once or twice a week.

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Jacob Stoops: That will talk about a little bit of drama and then at the end of the show. If anybody has stuck around to the end.

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Jacob Stoops: We’re going to talk about building a team and SEO training and how to go about that and the importance of doing that.

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Jacob Stoops: So definitely, definitely a great agenda today so Casie, the hallmark of the show, kind of like we’re superheroes is the the origin story of great SEOs and the the backgrounds, the trials. The tribulations. Um, so tell us about yourself. How did you get into SEO and just, who are you

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, loaded question. Um, you know, I was one of those people who didn’t know what SEO was we didn’t know what it was in 2005 I’d never heard of it. You know, I was out of college, I was bartending.

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Casie Gillette: thought, gosh, I guess I should probably get a job in marketing. My parents paid a lot of money for my college education.

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Casie Gillette: And a guy that I knew that that I had just met through the bar had approached me about this job in marketing. I was like okay well what it ended up being was. It was an online dating site.

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Casie Gillette: And but this is 2005 so like online dating wasn’t really a thing. And what we had to do was go out to clubs and hand out flyers for

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Casie Gillette: Dating site, which is awful. Right. That’s just an awful job but fast forward about six months I had stopped doing that, after

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Casie Gillette: Month, I think. And he reached back out and said, Hey, I have this job. We have another job doing SEO. Are you interested. And I said, I don’t know what that is but sure.

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Casie Gillette: And that was it. You know, I was so fortunate because the company that I ended up working for at the time was huge. They were about 150 people in it had people like Jenni Halas and Garrett French and Andy Beal

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Casie Gillette: These people in JP Sherman these people that you know

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Casie Gillette: As these you know industry thought leaders. Well, that’s where they also started out. So I had these amazing people to train me and to teach me. You know what SEO is and

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Casie Gillette: I think like most of us, I just fell in love, you know, you start doing it like, Wow, this is this is exciting and it changes and that’s cool. And, you know, here we are 1314 years later, whatever year it is. Now, I don’t know.

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Jacob Stoops: I hear that it’s going to be 2020

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Jacob Stoops: Oh, that’s

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Jacob Stoops: A new decade or still the same decade people

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: No, no, it’s tricky.

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Jacob Stoops: So how did you get to KoMarketing and not only then, how did you kind of climb the ladder to senior director

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, just run

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Casie Gillette: I had when I was down in Carolina. I was ready to move up, back, back up north. I was like, I gotta South here.

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Casie Gillette: So I applied to a job at KoMarketing actually and I just, I loved what I loved what they had to offer. Well, at the time, there were only three other people

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Casie Gillette: So I ended up moving up here. There were four of us in total just really small, which was so fun. You know, it was a whole new experience. I went from this big company to a very small company.

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Casie Gillette: And that was really exciting. Now that happened around 2009 2007 2008 right before the economy collapsed.

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Casie Gillette: And you know, we started to lose a lot of client, right, we just didn’t have a lot of business and I was approached to go in house.

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Casie Gillette: Start, you know, start an SEO team there help run the digital marketing team and so

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Casie Gillette: I went and did that for a couple years. And that was really cool. I never thought that I would want to go and house because

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Casie Gillette: You know when you’re on the agency side. It’s so fun right there. There’s all these different things always happening.

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Casie Gillette: But the opportunity was really great. You know, I got exposure to like running TV ads and radio ads, you know, building a social team building a community team so that stuff was really fun.

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Casie Gillette: But I stayed in touch with the marketing guys because they were so fantastic. In a few years into that they said, you know, do you want to come back.

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Casie Gillette: I don’t know. And, you know, Derek, who, who runs KoMarketing was like, well, moving the office downtown. I was like okay now I’m listening.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I live in the city. And I always had to drive out there and my whole dream of moving to Boston was I didn’t have to have a car and I didn’t have to drive. Anyway, so he was making my dream come true.

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Jacob Stoops: There it is.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, so I mean that’s, you know, I’ve kinda, you know, I’ve been at KoMarketing twice. Now, I’ve been back seven years. So a total of 10

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Casie Gillette: And you know, it’s just, it’s been fun to watch. It’s been fun to help grow the company, the guys who run it are fantastic. We have such great people on the team. We’re really meticulous about who we hire and how we hire and I think because of that we’ve been able to be successful.

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Jacob Stoops: So I’m going to apologize in advance because I’m, what I’m hearing is so you were at KoMarketing in then went in house somewhere and then back to KoMarketing.

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Casie Gillette: Correct.

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Jacob Stoops: Okay, because I was thinking I was like wait, you’re at KoMarketing, but you’re also in house.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, I’m very to I’m multitasking. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: OK, so the, it seems like the first time you were doing a lot of off offline TV and radio and and then a little dabbling in in the social space and

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Jacob Stoops: I guess what is so different outside of being downtown different this time in terms of like your role.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that was really exciting to me was I got to come in and build a team. And that’s honestly one of my absolute favorite things about my role about this industry.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I do a lot of speaking events. And the reason is, I love that part. Like I just love when someone comes up to you and says,

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Casie Gillette: I’ve never thought about this this way or like, Oh, this is so helpful or, you know, you write a blog posts and someone says,

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Casie Gillette: Oh, I use that and I sent it to my team like it makes you feel like, okay, I’m doing this for a reason.

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Casie Gillette: You know, there’s a rewarding element to it. And as part of coming back. My role here was to build a team who you know we got, I get to teach them SEO. I get to teach them marketing.

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Casie Gillette: And you get to watch them all grow up and become really good marketers and I love that. I think that’s really fun and exciting.

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Jacob Stoops: So have to ask always have to ask this comes up, like every episode, I’m in house or agency.

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Casie Gillette: So I am an agency girl.

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Casie Gillette: I do have to say like there are benefits of being in house one a lot easier. You know you you’ve talked to people who work at agencies I. In fact, I remember when I was coming back to the agency world and

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Casie Gillette: I know it’s like, well, how could she

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Casie Gillette: Like, why don’t you do with clients, but I don’t know like I don’t know about you guys, but I love the challenge, right. I feel like there’s always new challenges and like

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Casie Gillette: When you’re in house you’re only exposed to a minimal amount of things, whereas on the agency side, you know, I have 10 clients. And so I’m seeing all of these different situations.

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Casie Gillette: Just the learning element in the space. We have to keep up. You have to be constantly learning. And I think at the agency side, you get a little more exposure to that because you do have the different things. So for me, if agency, but I certainly understand why people like being in house.

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Jeff Louella: Do you ever feel that you can’t get everything you want to get done.

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Oh, yeah.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: We have a set amount of hours where, you know, not sure what that is but you know every

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Jeff Louella: Client is different, but

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Jeff Louella: They’re my I’ve always been an agency. I’ve never been in house and the one thing I always dreamed about was actually being able to just

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Jeff Louella: Sit there and like being internal meetings and hammer own like I have one client who’s blocking right now blocking Google

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Jeff Louella: And and they have been for the last six weeks and their dev teams like, well, we’re just trying to block acts like during the holidays, they’re blocking extra crawlers coming to the site because they’re so fragile.

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Jeff Louella: So sad.

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Jeff Louella: And I just wish I can be in those meetings every day and showing them and I do send reports as don’t know if it gets to the dev team because I’m working with marketing team and

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Jeff Louella: The thing. So sometimes I do dream about being in a house, but, um, but, as you said, like we have 10 different clients. So I just focus my time. Other places where I need it but

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, and I also found that, you know, working in house was cool because it’s like, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I’m just gonna go do it.

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Casie Gillette: And if you have that autonomy. That’s fantastic. But I was there for three years. And so, and thankfully I did have three different websites that I was working on. But like

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Casie Gillette: If you’re only working on, let’s say one website. And it’s not like a giant e com site. It’s just a, you know, maybe it’s a B2B site, whatever it is, like, there’s only so much you can do.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: There’s only so much for me. I started to get a little bored and it was nice because like I said I got exposure to these other things, but it can get a little enough. Yes.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I’m sure. I think like you, like you said, You’re an agency girl, I think, like, I don’t know what it, what it is, but I feel like it’s just

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Jacob Stoops: bred into your personality in terms of which side of the fence you you fall on

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Jacob Stoops: Some people tend to lean in house. Some people tend to lean agency for different reasons I’ve said many times I’ve been in both situations and

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Jacob Stoops: For whatever reason, I just tend to thrive more in the agency lifestyle as crazy as it is, it can get. Sometimes I’ve been in house, a couple of times. And each time I, I just, I really didn’t like it.

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Jacob Stoops: Made me. It was a function of just the particular opportunities and what was going on in house at the time.

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Jacob Stoops: But there have been times in my agency life where I’m I think just like Jeff like man, the grass looks really, really green, it would be great just to just to work on one web

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Jacob Stoops: All the time and do it really, really, really well. And then you get on the you get on the in house side and you’re like, Okay, I’m working on this.

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Jacob Stoops: And now what do I do with the rest of my time.

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Casie Gillette: Right, but

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Jacob Stoops: It is nice to be able to like have in developed close relationships with a lot of different stakeholders within the, within the company like it’s nice to

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Jacob Stoops: For example, in my last last role, I was able to just get up and walk two desks over and say, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: Aaron, who was a developer, like I’m trying to get this thing implemented, but like, I’m seeing this error and he would fix it on the spot and go okay great that’ll get pushed live tonight and stuff like that was

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Jacob Stoops: Invaluable. And not only that, but just walking down to to another floor to talk with one of the other teams.

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Jacob Stoops: And get an understanding because they handled customers directly and like working directly with them. I mean, there were a couple of times where we work directly with them to actually create pieces of content.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah subject matter.

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Casie Gillette: That’s like one of my favorite things I talked about that a lot is like when I was in house we talked to the customer support team every week.

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Casie Gillette: Right. And it was so awesome. Knowing here’s what people are asking for. Here’s what they can’t find like here’s what the second yeah so that there are those benefits. Yeah, but

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Jacob Stoops: Like I said, I just, I made for agency. I like the I like the challenge. I like the diversity and I feel as if

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Jacob Stoops: The competition with other agencies.

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Jacob Stoops: In addition to the competition with your clients and their competitors. Yeah, really.

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Jacob Stoops: Really drives me. I come from a sports background so I’m super competitive and not to say that if you don’t come from other backgrounds. You’re not competitive, but I feel like for me that’s

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Jacob Stoops: Plays plays into it. So like I i like to win. And for me, I can see is giving me the best chance to kind of

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Jacob Stoops: Scratch that competitive edge.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel.

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Jacob Stoops: So you do public speaking. What’s, what’s that look

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Casie Gillette: Like

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Casie Gillette: Well, no, it’s fun. Honestly, um, I don’t know. I don’t even remember how I got into it, or why, but I just know like once I was up there. I was like, oh yeah, this is for me.

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Casie Gillette: There’s just something to be said about

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Casie Gillette: You know, you’re being in front of your peers and having them listen. It makes you have to up your game. I never ever ever want to go to a conference and disappoint people

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Casie Gillette: And because of that, I think it’s really forced me to make sure that I’m talking about the right things. I’m learning the right things. I’m focused on the things I’m passionate about. I think that’s a huge one.

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Casie Gillette: When I first started speaking I talked about link building about a year into that. I was like, if I have to talk about link building one more time. I’m going to jump off the stage. Like, I can’t, I can’t talk about it anymore.

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Casie Gillette: But I needed to find something else that I was passionate about right and and also you have to find something that not everyone else is saying, although there’s a lot of it right

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Casie Gillette: That in the space, and I’m sure I’ve done it, too. But I just, I just love it. I love what the camaraderie of conferences.

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Casie Gillette: I will say that I have made some amazing friends through conferences that I go on vacation with now that I talked to you in real life that have become like close lifelong friends that are never would have gotten to do that without speaking. So it’s just fun. I just really like it.

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Jacob Stoops: Have you do you get nervous or you just one of those natural, natural because like I feel like it was

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Jacob Stoops: All a couple of couple of guests ago I can’t remember exactly who it was. Alicia or Leisha Anderson or Andrea Bergman, it was like, Nope, I just stepped right up there and it’s it’s easy.

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Casie Gillette: It’s nice. I get nervous. Yeah, there’s a moment not I’m not nervous like

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Casie Gillette: A day before I’m nervous for like that 20 minutes before, but the moment that I’m on the stage. It’s fine. Totally fine. Like the moment that I’m up there. Your adrenaline’s poverty, like, all right, I’m in

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Casie Gillette: And you can’t be nervous up there. So, but, yeah, there’s about I usually don’t eat before I can

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Casie Gillette: Just gotta go.

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Jacob Stoops: It. Go ahead, Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: I’ll just say I don’t speak a ton bone. I do. I usually start off with the dad joke.

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Jeff Louella: When the crowd. As soon as I get them the laugh. And I’m like, all right, I’m good. But, but if they don’t laugh. I’m like, Oh, no.

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Jeff Louella: Luckily I’m so good. They always

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Jeff Louella: Get the greatest dad. Exactly.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I have this I have this thing and it’s sometimes applies to speaking, but mostly singing in public, where

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Jacob Stoops: It’s literally like, like you said 20 minutes before I’m set to like go on and go on. It’s not like I sing in like these massive arenas or anything. My wife and I sing it a benefit concert every, every color. Yeah, yeah, it is cool.

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Jacob Stoops: But even as small as the as the venue is I have this thing where, when I go on for about the 20 minutes before and even sometimes as

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Jacob Stoops: As close to performing as literally like the song comes on and I’m about three seconds from having to open my mouth. Forget all the lyrics, they just go out of my head.

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Jacob Stoops: Really, yeah. Yeah, it’s like a complete blackout really like scary because like there are times when I’m standing out there. And all I’m thinking is not how well I need to sing more like what do I say

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Casie Gillette: What am I even thinking

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Jacob Stoops: What am I singing and then then the music comes on and I’m still I’m starting to panic. Now, like Panic, panic. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. And then finally,

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Jacob Stoops: I remember like it was yesterday. I opened my mouth words came out and they were the right words and I went along by I went along my merry way and

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Jacob Stoops: For anybody that has that kind of public phobia. The idea of public speaking can be nauseating like nauseating. So I guess what advice would you give to people that struggle with the idea of getting up in front of their peers.

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Casie Gillette: Well, what I was gonna say was, I mean what you just talked about is just the benefit of muscle memory, right, like we talked about practicing. I know there’s people who will say, like, you know, I don’t practice my presentations. I do.

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Casie Gillette: I run through them like you know me I don’t I try not to go, word for word, but like

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Casie Gillette: I run through that thing 20 times because I want to know that when I get out there that if something goes wrong, right, if I can’t see my slides. If there’s technical errors or whatever’s going on, you know, whether it’s fear or whatever that I still know my materials.

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Casie Gillette: But one of the things we do here is we start getting people like some of the trainings that we do involve people giving presentations.

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Casie Gillette: Because you’re only in front of maybe five people or 10 people or whatever it is you start small.

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Casie Gillette: I tell anyone you know who’s looking to get into public speaking. Look at a local event like I started just doing word camps that were here in Boston.

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Casie Gillette: Events like that, or just like local SEO meetups where you know people give you an opportunity new speakers, they’re expecting new speakers, where you don’t. They don’t care if you mess up, right. Those are the things that that for me, it’s like know your material and start small.

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Jeff Louella: You have done a couple when I used to live in Philadelphia and we had a pretty vibrant SEO Meetup group. They’re called SEO grill and

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Jeff Louella: I got to speak there a couple times and I do small events. A lot of times I used to run a homebrew club making beer.

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Jeff Louella: So I would I would do presentation. Yeah, you know, a it was funny when I decided to start a club. I was like, I don’t want to do work after work.

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Jeff Louella: And I enjoyed the air and me, my friends who started brewing were like, you know, we want to meet other people to do it. And then we started a club and then that grew to 300 people

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Jeff Louella: My guy, and it was insane. Like we were just at this one bar on the Tuesday night would just be packed to the gills.

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Jeff Louella: The guy would never have any traffic on the Tuesday night before, and so it was a good time. But from there. I learned a lot of just, again, if you know your material like if I talked about SEO or if I talked about home brewing, I can. I don’t need slides, I can just talk about it, but

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Jeff Louella: But yeah, when you’re in front of a bunch of people, it can be be scary. So, but where did you get from like

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Jeff Louella: The confidence. You know, you start off bartending. You’re saying, and then now 10 years later, you’re in stage, you know, Mosque on

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Jeff Louella: And then there’s many of us who’ve been doing SEO just as long. And, you know, haven’t gotten past the meetup groups.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, so

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Casie Gillette: Honestly, I again I’ve just been really lucky, like the support of the community, I would say. So even when I first started doing like I did an SMS show and it I

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Casie Gillette: One of the benefits. I was working in house right and I do think there’s a benefit when you’re in house that if you’re looking to speak, they’re more open to having you right

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Jeff Louella: Now big brand behind. Yes.

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Casie Gillette: Yep. And so that was really helpful. But at that show I met a couple people, you know, Elizabeth awesome Alaska who worked for third door for a long time. Greg Finn.

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Casie Gillette: There, people who just became my friends, but they also were these huge support systems. And so they were encouraging me to start writing for Search Engine Land. Right. So they got me doing that.

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Casie Gillette: You know, they would encourage they would help me with my pitches. Right. So I’ve just been really lucky I think in that the people that I have surrounded myself with or gotten to know have all been so supportive

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Casie Gillette: You know, even I was doing. I got invited to do search love one year in London.

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Casie Gillette: And a friend of mine, Aaron Friedman, who I had met through another show like we spent the night before our sessions just practicing with one another.

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Casie Gillette: And so, those kinds of things. Just, just really help. I don’t know. I’m not a shy person.

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Casie Gillette: I think that that makes the biggest difference is I know people in the industry will talk about, you know, I’m very introverted, or I’m very extroverted like I am an extrovert. I just very much am I enjoy being around people.

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Casie Gillette: I like conferences, I’d like being in crowds. So that part I think certainly helps because you know when you’re just out there just being loud, like I am. I don’t know if that helps or not, but

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Jacob Stoops: Funny. My wife is exactly like that, and I am. She is like the type of person that never met a person that she couldn’t talk to and like immediately make them like her, and be her friend and I am like, I’m a nice person, but I am

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Jacob Stoops: The opposite where like when I get into big crowds situations. It makes me like twitchy uncomfortable super uncomfortable.

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Jacob Stoops: Which is the yeah I then find it odd that I choose to do a

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Casie Gillette: Podcast right out there.

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Casie Gillette: Talking to people. I mean, I will say this, like, I don’t love I’ll be the first to say that I don’t love networking events like where you’re just with a whole bunch of strangers, but like

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Casie Gillette: I just like myself up for it. So you just, I just get mentally prepared and then you’re just you’re in, you know, I’m fine. Once I’m in it, but

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, I mean, it was tough moving like

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Jeff Louella: I know you. It seems like you’ve moved around a little bit, but I lived in Philadelphia for 42 years

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Jeff Louella: Wow started to move to Atlanta and pick up the family and move and it was really tough for my wife at first.

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Jeff Louella: But she is that type of person to you can put her in a room, she starts chatting with people and I think she’s actually impressed herself with how she can. She’s like 1000 friends now.

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Jeff Louella: And and the ones in there going, like I have a couple people. I kind of talk to you.

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Jeff Louella: I’m still I’m like texts with my friends back home, but it’s and she’s out every night, so it’s it’s interesting how

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Casie Gillette: I

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Jeff Louella: Put yourself in that position, and then you can like, get out there. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: You don’t it, Jeff, you’ll have a few more friends.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. That’s what the internet’s great

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Jacob Stoops: So Casie, what are some of the biggest challenges that you run into operating in the agency world.

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Casie Gillette: Um, I mean, I do think, you know, it just thinking about the team, you know, thinking about hiring. It’s so competitive right now, you know, especially, you know, we’re a smaller agency. There’s a little under 30 a few of like 30 of us.

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Casie Gillette: And when you’re trying to hire that like 123 years person. It is like just a battle.

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Casie Gillette: Axe and especially here in Boston, where there’s a ton of companies and a ton of tech companies and even just a ton of agencies, right.

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Casie Gillette: A lot of the big digital, you know, the big agencies, you have like digital us and you know those places who are now trying to get in the game, and they’re willing to pay a lot more

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Casie Gillette: To have those 123 years like I think hiring has certainly been a challenge. And we’ve been really lucky.

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Casie Gillette: Make our team is amazing. We’ve been able to get some really good people in, but then you have people who are constantly recruiting them away.

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Casie Gillette: So it’s like a battle. It’s like such a battle right now from that perspective.

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Casie Gillette: But then you have clients and you know to Geoff’s point earlier, there’s only so much time right there’s only so much time, you only have so many resources. I have a client right now that I adore. I love them to death.

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Casie Gillette: Unfortunately, when the search results changed in June with that big update. They weren’t penalized. But what happened was the search results themselves shifted so much

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Casie Gillette: That they went from being in you know the position one at the top of the page that didn’t have a lot of elements to now they’re

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Casie Gillette: In position to be ahead of them are now sponsored products and a map and the Knowledge Graph and people also asked box and so their traffic just tanked. And when you see that like

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Casie Gillette: It’s just gut wrenching because, you know, like I’m doing everything I can to help this client, but I can’t get them back there, right, like unless those search results change like I can’t get them back there.

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Casie Gillette: So that stuff is is just, it’s so challenging and frustrating because you have these clients that you love and you want to help them but

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Casie Gillette: Sometimes you just have to say like we have to change our, we have to change our strategy right and i mean like a complete one need to change our strategy. So I think that that’s a tough one.

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Jeff Louella: I mean it’s tougher all these days with Google putting so many other elements on the page. Besides that, besides just organic and it is surprising. Sometimes when I still do well. And there are other things on that page.

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Jeff Louella: But you know Google’s tracking all that, too. So they’re also going to be changing those features around a lot. Yeah. And I do

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Jeff Louella: You know, I think it’s really important to start spreading out into other mediums.

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Jeff Louella: Cuz you’re going to have video links are going to have image links and it’s like if we don’t optimize our images or maybe add videos like those are areas we can get to

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Jeff Louella: I think figuring out a track it all is another aspect. Um, but, but one of those is like there’s gonna be 10 listings above you, that are just not organic. And how do we get into those listings

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Casie Gillette: Right, and even, like, you know, for that same client. I mean,

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Casie Gillette: One of the first things we did. We’re like, All right, let’s get like FAQ schema on the site right like they have FAQs the search results are showing FAQs. Like, let’s get this up. Let’s test it. Let’s see what that can do so.

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Casie Gillette: We’re really trying everything we can think of here to help with that. But sometimes you know there’s there’s only so much that we can do. But yeah, I love your like, but like you have to diversify. Some people just don’t want to hear that, though.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, and it’s hard to diversify. Right. I mean, one reason when Jacob asked me to come on to the podcast was like something I always wanted to do, but I know it’s a lot of work to do it.

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Jeff Louella: And it’s like there’s a whole bunch of new algorithms. I got to learn because it’s like to get your, you know, a podcast even

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Jeff Louella: Show up like it’s learning right it’s like you on iTunes. We don’t show up yet. But there’s ones out there that haven’t been talked like having the three episodes and haven’t been uploaded in 10 years entered like number four.

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Jeff Louella: It’s like why so that’s not the that’s not Google. I feel like if it was Google. I don’t understand it but

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Exactly so. So

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Jacob Stoops: When people don’t want to hear it. How do you approach that because I feel like I’ve said it like 80 million times the implementation, especially on the agency side is our biggest problem and then

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Jacob Stoops: Changing hearts and hearts and minds and figuring out from a psychological perspective, what can you do or say to get people to kind of come around to your understanding of a situation or the reality of situation, how do you, how do you go about that.

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Casie Gillette: I mean, one thing that I take a lot of pride in. And that, you know, specifically here at KoMarketing is like we have really good relationships with our clients.

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Casie Gillette: You know, I have a client that I’ve worked with since I started here and she’s like her fifth organization and she just brings us with her everywhere she goes, it’s so awesome.

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Casie Gillette: But because of those relationships we are able to be very direct about it, right, like, one of the things that I really do pride myself in is

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Casie Gillette: I’m not. I’m never gonna lie to my clients right so like that example that I told you where search results shifted

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Casie Gillette: You know, I said like, look, we can keep trying to get back, we can keep trying to get back for this keyword all you want, but unless this changes.

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Casie Gillette: There’s nothing that we’re going to be able to do. But here’s the data that shows here are the other things that we can do right so

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Casie Gillette: In fact, one of the one of the girls who works here put together this sheet yesterday, this data set for this client that specifically looks at their competitors.

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Casie Gillette: We’ve been trying to get them to do a couple things.

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Casie Gillette: They’ve been a little bit hesitant to do it. She pulled all this data that’s competitive data search volume data like potential revenue data that now we take that and we present to them like here’s the actual financial impact of doing this.

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Casie Gillette: And I think that helps the one thing I always tell people I’m like just show them competition just show them their competitors.

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Casie Gillette: Like, especially when you’re talking to the C suite. If you show them like here’s what your competitors are doing. They absolutely are always like, Well, why aren’t we doing that.

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Casie Gillette: So I do think that helps is, you know, just just being honest and direct, you know, using the data you have, and, you know, if you can get buy in from from the upper level that that goes such a long way.

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Jacob Stoops: Do you find that they believe their data or the data that you provide them.

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Casie Gillette: I do it. But, you know, the one thing I do like is I think our clients are very smart. That’s actually something that’s changed that’s gone wrong.

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Jacob Stoops: Like I wanted to rewind that the

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Casie Gillette: The one thing that has definitely shifted over the past, you know, seven years, specifically for me being here is our contacts weren’t always

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Casie Gillette: Search savvy and now they are much more savvy when it comes to understanding SEO paid search, whatever it is. So our clients, not only they will question the data if it’s if it’s wrong, or if they have questions, but they understand it. And I think that is really, really helpful.

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Jacob Stoops: What do you think is led to that higher degree of understanding

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Casie Gillette: I mean, I think, just as the guy was so much more well known.

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Casie Gillette: Right. I mean, there’s still people who don’t necessarily know, but you know 10 years ago was like this little thing that maybe someone did. And it was such a niche. Whereas now, it’s a thing that they teach in college, which is amazing.

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Casie Gillette: But I think there’s just so much more awareness of it and people who who need to understand it.

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Jacob Stoops: You guys ever like I like even five years ago, I had never once on in like a traditional medium heard anybody like refer to SEO. So it was like the thing that I do for my living is like this super

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Jacob Stoops: Secret sort of thing to the to the public. And now, like I’m driving around done listening to in I’m in Columbus, so it’s 97 when the fan my sports radio and when you start to get the commercials in the ads there a company’s advertising SEO services. And I’m like,

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Jacob Stoops: Holy crap, this is becoming more mainstream whereas five years ago, like, no, you never saw it. I even today I’m ups. I’m upstairs and I’ve got a TV.

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Jacob Stoops: That can play I can play the YouTube and YouTube ad came on and it was for a digital marketing and SEO company. And I was like, well, about a year ago, I didn’t see much of that going that going on.

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Jacob Stoops: So you’re right it is becoming a little bit more, more.

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Casie Gillette: What we do it was on Jeopardy jeopardy. We’ve made it. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, one of my

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Jeff Louella: Favorite my favorite podcasts is a radio lab. And for the last two months or three months they they’ve been brought to you by wicks

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Jeff Louella: And all they’re talking about his mixes SEO capabilities.

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Jeff Louella: And I’m just like, oh, this is my favorite pocket. Like they their whole podcast is about like breaking things down. I wish they broke their average

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Jacob Stoops: Amy and knowing them, which just shelled out $25,000 to Marie Haines bolting like for winning the the wicks SEO contest and

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Jacob Stoops: Like

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Jacob Stoops: I was like holy shit if I didn’t know there were, there was 25 grand on the line, I would have been like, all right, I’m in. I let me let me get in there but

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Casie Gillette: I you know I appreciate it, that it goes to someone like her, though, who actually knows what she’s doing. Right. That, you know, I think she made a comment today, like, you know, she had eight people working on it for six months or something like

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Casie Gillette: But, you know, you see someone, it’s like okay this is a person that I know is smart. I know knows what they’re doing like better than some, you know, shady person.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, well, when they ran a competition. Last year I know with a Patrick stocks, he like it was it came down to between him and someone else and

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Jeff Louella: You know, there was a lot of shady stuff going on on on some of those people were being bought and and and that was part of the rules and he couldn’t buy links so i know i don’t think Patrick was I think the guy who won.

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Casie Gillette: The other guy did yeah and it’s

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Jeff Louella: So it is an interesting thing. I give wicks credit because SEO is love like that again, there were competitive so

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Casie Gillette: That they’re on it to

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Jeff Louella: Totally like if we’re not in it. We’re crap.

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Jacob Stoops: I couldn’t believe the size of the font, though, man. I was like,

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Jeff Louella: That

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Jacob Stoops: You’re serious about this 25 G’s. Cool, man. So Jeff,

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s move to the next segment. What’s in

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Jeff Louella: Right.

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s get to the drama.

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Jeff Louella: Yes, more Twitter drama. So there was a post by think I’m gonna probably announce it will just say, Holly cuz she what’s her name on there but

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Jacob Stoops: I think you’re

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Jeff Louella: Blocked yeah girl Ziploc

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Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: But she pretty much came out and was saying in the first two pages of Google never surface any personal blogs or personal websites anymore.

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Jeff Louella: And everything it’s worthwhile like a question, you look at

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Jeff Louella: You know, it’s just being optimized bunch of bunch of SEO assholes. And that was a word to use, and I thought it was awesome. But at the same time right there was like you know as SEO assholes were kind of going out and saying there was a lot of different post out there so

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Jeff Louella: I know someone like Joe Hall, kind of like some of us aren’t assholes. And we took the time to learn the algorithms and stuff. And I think there was a lot of battle going back and forth between

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Jeff Louella: Is someone who is not so familiar with SEO and if I could see you know like you type in

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Jeff Louella: Anything and not anything but anything that’s like a probably a broader keyword. You can have a major company show up for it.

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Jeff Louella: Especially if it’s like something you’re trying to sell you know if you’re typing in iPhone or something like that. Like, you’re going to get a big brand, whether it’s apple or BestBuy or somebody there. And yes, they all have SEOs working for them.

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Jeff Louella: But it was the outrage was kind of interesting with it, where I mean john mule Mueller posted about it like you want to know what people thought

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Jeff Louella: You know bills. Yet all the big name as you guys out there, Bill slough ski, um, you know, there was an interesting conversation. I don’t know what your take, was it on

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Jeff Louella: Jacob, but it was really interesting kind of post between it because I really feel that, yes, there’s big brands out there. I think I understand why there’s big brands out there. I don’t think it’s anything. It could be. It’s not shady. It’s a grower trying to optimize for that.

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Jeff Louella: I do feel like there are some bad SEOs out there and they probably are doing bad things. But overall, we’re all trying to make our clients site more for the customers.

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Jeff Louella: And that’s why Google showing them over other people and that’s kind of what I feel that’s going on but I get her pain.

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Jeff Louella: Why, she’s, she’s like, if you don’t know that. And you’re just a blogger and you wonder why your blogs loss efforts traffic or isn’t getting the traffic. It means like, of course, you’re just gonna blame the people who specialize in that so

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Casie Gillette: I mean, at the same time, though, if you’re just realizing, like you’re so behind

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Casie Gillette: That’s why you’re not showing up anymore. Right. I

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Jeff Louella: Mean

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Casie Gillette: This started changing how many years ago, I personally don’t have any patience for that so

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Casie Gillette: I just don’t like one. I try to stay out of the SEO dramas, just like again I just other things that I’d like to do

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Casie Gillette: And usually it’s just people I think sometimes people like to argue

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Casie Gillette: I do think in one of the things I do

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Casie Gillette: Love about the SEO space and the people in it is that people are very protective of it right and it goes back to what we were just talking about were five years ago, people maybe didn’t know as much about SEO as they did. So I do think people are very

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Casie Gillette: protective of the Community as a whole, protective of what we do because we’ve always had to be a little bit defensive about it because let’s be real, like when I started the ship were doing was not like well as shady. Right. You’re just buying links and

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Casie Gillette: And it worked. And it was awesome. And you know there are people who are still figuring out how to game the system and at the

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Casie Gillette: End of the day, like, yes, like we’re not personally. It’s not like I’m doing over here doing anything shady, but I am working really hard to innocence game that algorithm. Right. I want my client site there and so

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Casie Gillette: What does that mean, well, it means you have to have a brand presence and it means you need to have content and, you know, yeah, these personal blogs don’t necessarily have that. So maybe they shouldn’t show up.

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Casie Gillette: And what are you trying to show up for so

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Jeff Louella: I don’t know i just i and i can show them like I didn’t want to get into because I’m anti drama myself, but I can show her where there’s personal blogs meeting some of my clients that

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Are driving. Yes.

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Casie Gillette: And it goes to the it goes to the sense of diversification exactly what we were just talking about, you know, for people who maybe you don’t have a big brands like you need to be looking at, you know, social or whatever it is, or medium or these

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Casie Gillette: Other platforms where you can gain

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Casie Gillette: Visibility because, I mean, even for my clients. I’m like, look how much time you have left in Google here, right.

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Casie Gillette: Time is limited for alive. So, you know, whether you’re a blogger not have enough people to sell things to complain, but

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Jeff Louella: What I find interesting.

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Jacob Stoops: About this is like, just like you guys said there are certain queries like across some of my clients were like

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Jacob Stoops: Half of the results are product pages and half of the results are articles.

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Jacob Stoops: blog articles resource articles, things like that. And as an SEO. It’s like it’s really interesting to try to figure out what Google thinks the real intent is. Is it informational is it transactional

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Jacob Stoops: But I would say to like the first comment about how, like, okay, Google never almost never surfaces blogs and personal websites what and my Google Pixel is going up as I’m saying saying this, so I’m

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Jacob Stoops: Always listening Google

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Jacob Stoops: It’s let’s just actually in inaccurate and I’m for, you know, I hate to to rail on this particular person. I don’t know what search that they were doing, but like honestly the last place I worked like we grew our traffic in about a year by like 100% and almost all of it was like

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Jacob Stoops: A blog. Yeah. And that brought in a lot of business. So like, there’s that.

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Jacob Stoops: The second part of this is the, the kind of more kerfuffle were like, Okay, well, just because there are people online that that optimize things to show up. We’re, we’re all assholes. Well,

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Jacob Stoops: Now you something like I feel like there are some because there are two sides of the fence one on one side of the fence. You’ve got people

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Jacob Stoops: In I think rightfully so, defending the industry and the people in it as not all assholes. Okay. And that and that’s true. Like, we’re not all assholes. But there are some assholes. It’s just like other place on Earth. There are things in there. There are not assholes in any profession ever

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Casie Gillette: So, you know, there’s people that are in this industry that I like very much but they’re still assholes.

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Casie Gillette: Right, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: There’s, there’s even that. But then there are

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Jeff Louella: People on

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Jacob Stoops: The other side of the fence. And this is where I feel like for me in terms of my opinion because I believe that when

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Jacob Stoops: We’re all being generalized as assholes. We have a right to push back. But there are people on the other side of the fence and

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Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand it quite as much and I’m trying really hard that in one case like Tom Raynor who was a was a previous guest on the show and sometimes has

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Jacob Stoops: Some, some opinions on this, this type of stuff basically getting upset at the people for defending the industry and pushing back on on this type of stuff in there were other people saying, hey,

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Jacob Stoops: You’re missing the point. You’re missing the point. And I agree, like, okay, what what’s great about this country is that people are allowed to have

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Jacob Stoops: Opinions and there is freedom of speech and that’s awesome, but there’s not freedom from accountability. Right. You have the right to say whatever the hell you want

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Jacob Stoops: And so to other people. And you mentioned earlier that Twitter is great for our Twitter wouldn’t exist if people didn’t arch. You didn’t argue

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, absolutely. So anyways,

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Jeff Louella: Okay.

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Jacob Stoops: Anyway, so let’s so let’s move on. Let’s

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Casie Gillette: We can hang with us all day.

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Jacob Stoops: Let’s quickly. Let’s get into kind of the team building want to be respectful of time. So let’s jump into the team building component and deep dive on that really quickly. So, Casie. How do you build a good SEO team.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, so this was something that I was asking.

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Casie Gillette: You know, five years ago, six years ago, like I said, when I came back to KoMarketing. Um, there were probably about eight people eight or nine people that were here at the time and you know we were growing and I realized that once you hit that 10 to 12 mark.

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Casie Gillette: You need things like processes which like I hate my life just like God, like, all right, we need to do something like how do we actually make this scalable.

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Casie Gillette: And so I started talking to just different people in the industry about how they have grown their teams, you know, I was talking to will Scott

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Casie Gillette: Talking to Mike Arneson about like what they do for training and, you know, just thinking what these people were telling me I was like okay like

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Casie Gillette: What we actually have to do is, is give people the tools that that are going to make them successful but also you have to give them the process to lead them there. And I think that’s something that I struggled with a little bit

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Casie Gillette: Because I just don’t love having to tell people to do something a certain way because especially with search. There’s so many nuances, you know, and I see people who are like, Okay, well, you told me that I have to have 60 characters. And so I have 16 and I’m like, Oh, no.

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Casie Gillette: I just had

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Jacob Stoops: Somebody today asked me how important the little green bubble is in the Yoast SEO plugin.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s fine. So like you have to consider all that but I mean one of the things that that we realized is

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Casie Gillette: One. You just have to we start people slow

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Casie Gillette: But we also give them that you know we give them templates for things and we give them the tools they need and we give them the information they needed and

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Casie Gillette: You know, now we have managers who are helping and there’s people above them who are we’re guiding them through the process, especially people who they don’t have any experience with SEO. Right. They don’t know what it is. So I would also say the one thing that we have certainly changed.

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Casie Gillette: Is focusing on the user. And that’s one thing that I tell people the team now especially new people.

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Casie Gillette: When it comes to things like keywords is I always tell them like think about the user first. And that’s something that even that I feel like has changed.

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Casie Gillette: But you have to really think through all of the nuances that come with search and and that’s tricky, but I think when you’re building your team, you know, you learn it as you go. I’m still learning new things every day.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. It’s funny, I always tell

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Jeff Louella: There’s different everyone has different ways of doing things.

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Casie Gillette: Right.

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Jeff Louella: When it comes to the title tags. Like, I’m kind of the anti like pipe between like keyword pipe keyword pipe.

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Jeff Louella: And just I’d rather it read something better and. And at the end, it’s not even like I don’t like pipe client I like you know by client or something, some so read, you know, it’s like

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Jeff Louella: A new Nike sneakers. But, you know, from whoever and it’s

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Jeff Louella: And it just little things like that were getting people in brand new and SEO and they read a lot of articles you just end up seeing it, like, way more robotic than it needs to be. And

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And yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Jake’s working on a lot of training stuff where and our work and it’s kind of, it’s tough to get the full gamut of everything you do.

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Jeff Louella: In there, so we’re trying to build a slow kind of library of videos and that when someone new comes in, they can go through them.

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Casie Gillette: It’s a great idea.

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Jeff Louella: I think just the relationships between

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Jeff Louella: People senior people and junior people is where I think a lot of team building needs to come from. So

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, and I mean even thinking about

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Casie Gillette: Like, how are we starting them so like we don’t just immediately drop someone into like doing keyword research. For example,

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Casie Gillette: But what we might have them do is optimize a page which forces them to figure out like how do I find the right keywords and how do I make sure that

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Casie Gillette: I’m you know I’m whatever I’m changing still relates to the user. But it also forces them to go look at search result so

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Casie Gillette: You know, kind of easing them into all of the elements before saying like, all right, like I’m going to have you go do this, this full scope of keyword research or whatever it might be.

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Jacob Stoops: How do you when you’re bringing people into the team, right, there’s

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Jacob Stoops: Just like in sports, right, there’s, there’s the X’s and O’s. Right. But then there’s also an element that’s a little bit more on definable called chemistry right and fit.

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Jacob Stoops: Within the team structure. So when you’re bringing people in and it doesn’t just have to be intro people, it can be mid level and senior people

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Jacob Stoops: What are the characteristics of a person that you look for in terms of that person’s fit as you’re constructing your team. Yeah.

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Casie Gillette: We said, I mean as an organization, we sat down about two years ago.

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Casie Gillette: And it tried to answer that question because we were we, you know, we really wanted to take hiring, we really take it seriously because again we’re a small team. So the people that you’re hiring. You’re putting a lot of investment into that person.

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Casie Gillette: And what we figured out is the people that were looking for, they have to be self motivated. I think that’s the biggest thing is like, we don’t have time. I don’t have time to micromanage people and also who likes that. Like nobody

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Casie Gillette: Can nobody likes that. So you have to be an element of being self motivated and in this industry where things change, like we’re talking about, you need to go figure. You have to be curious. Right. You have to go figure out

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Casie Gillette: Well, I looked at the search result yesterday, and now I’m seeing something different, like why or like last week, my client was here and now they’re not why

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Casie Gillette: So I think between being self motivated and curious. Those are such like key elements for us in the desire to learn is a big one, a really big one. So I love when we interview someone

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Casie Gillette: Excuse. Excuse me. I love when we interview someone and they say,

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Casie Gillette: Yeah, well I’ve been doing this but I’m really interested in this. So, you know, I went in took like the Google Analytics test because I wanted to learn about it right or

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Casie Gillette: I went and looked at HubSpot x because I wanted to learn about it. That’s the stuff that really intrigues me and I’m like, all right, this person, this person is going to be a good fit. So

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Jacob Stoops: Are there ever and I want to be. We’re running out of time so I’m squeezing squeezing questions. Are there ever people that check those boxes, but then come in and still are in a culture fit and how do you, I guess. How do you figure that

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Casie Gillette: We, we haven’t we haven’t had that honestly it we’ve been so lucky. I met. Oh.

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Casie Gillette: But we do like when the people come in, like, we’re very we work in an open office.

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Casie Gillette: Right. And I’m very just apparent like the questions that we ask are, you know, the questions I asked her what type of environment. Are you looking for. How do you like to be managed. How do you learn

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Casie Gillette: You know what, what is your, your dream job. What you know those questions, kind of, they can give you a lot of insights into that.

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Casie Gillette: But we also will have, like, it’s not just the leadership team who’s interviewing these people. We have their peers come in and talk to them.

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Casie Gillette: We have a, you know, middle managers come in and talk to them. So, you know, at the end, we’re all deciding does this person seem like a fit. And I think that helps

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Casie Gillette: Okay, we’ve had like one, maybe, maybe there’s like one

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Casie Gillette: So we’ve been lucky I guess.

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Jeff Louella: Awesome. So if you know you ain’t got a couple drinks and you’re talking to the bartender and the bartender says

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Jeff Louella: Hey, I want to follow the same steps that you did. I want to get into SEO. What kind of advice would you give them to go like come from, like, you know, bartender waitress or, you know,

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Jeff Louella: Any type of job into the SEO world.

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Casie Gillette: I tell people all the time. Start build a website.

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Casie Gillette: Even though they’re not showing up in search results.

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Casie Gillette: You know, start playing around with WordPress. I think WordPress is the easiest place to start.

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Casie Gillette: But just building your own site. I think that’s your best test environment you’re never going to learn more. That’s how, like, I didn’t know HTML. When I was coming out of school.

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Casie Gillette: I just started playing around with it. I started building my own websites. I’ve read like I got like HTML for dummies. I own I bought SEO for dummies.

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Casie Gillette: Me.

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Casie Gillette: You learn this stuff by doing it.

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Casie Gillette: And that’s never in that goes

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Casie Gillette: Back to the start of our conversation on being in an agency where you have these different places to play and explore and

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Casie Gillette: I would say just go and I tell the team here. Like if you want to learn. People are like, oh, I want to learn HTML, you can, it’s, it’s not really that hard.

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Casie Gillette: There’s plenty of places to do these things, but go start go start playing around and read. I mean, I read an hour every day. So every I pay attention to what’s what’s whether it’s on Twitter, whether it’s on my feed Lee feeds. I still read every single day to learn what else is new.

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Jacob Stoops: Reading is very, very important and underrated skill in this industry.

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Jacob Stoops: Well. Casie I’m know you’re running out of time and have a hard stop wanted to thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you.

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Casie Gillette: Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun. You can find me on twitter at Casie G. You can find me. I always say this, I’m LinkedIn. I’ve never on LinkedIn. Don’t find me there.

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Casie Gillette: Find me at KoMarketing com

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Jeff Louella: Cool, thank you so much.

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Jacob Stoops: For coming on and I know our audience will will love your episode. It was a great, great discussion.

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Casie Gillette: Well, thanks. It’s good to talk to you guys.

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Jacob Stoops: Thank you.

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To talk to you.

#33: Patrick Stox

Episode Summary

We sit down with Patrick Stox, Product Adviser at AHrefs, former technical SEO at IBM, and co-moderator of The TechSEO subreddit (one of the best SEO subreddits going right now) and organizer of several SEO meetups in Raleigh, NC.

We talk about:

  • How the downturn in the economy caused by the 2008 financial bubble led him to a career as a developer which eventually led him to SEO
  • His time at IBM
  • What he’s currently up to at AHrefs (also pronounced “Hrefs”)
  • The importance of practical experience rather than simply having a degree
  • The announcement that Speakable structured data is no longer restricted to news content
  • And so much more.

#32: Ashley Berman Hale & Jamie Alberico

Episode Summary

We have an amazing episode in store for you today as we have not one, but two guests!

In today’s episode, we chat with Ashley Berman Hale, Director of Technical SEO consulting and professional services at Deep Crawl, as well as Jamie Alberico, Technical SEO consultant at Not a Robot.

We had such a free-flowing conversation that we ditched the traditional format (as you will soon find out) and we covered a ton of topics including:

  • Ashley and Jamie’s backgrounds and career progressions into SEO
  • Their amazing friendship
  • Why they love technical SEO
  • Dealing with impostor syndrome and self doubt
  • Public speaking and writing
  • The conference circuit

And so much more.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Alright. Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops we are back for another episode of the page to podcast and today we have a very, very special episode where we have not one, but two guests and I will let you know who those guests are in a moment. But first, I’ve got to say hi to Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: Hello everybody.

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Jacob Stoops: And everything. Make sure we don’t skip Jeff.

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Jacob Stoops: And then guests. Number one is going to be Miss Jamie Alberico. Jamie, how’s it going

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Jamie Alberico: I’m so sad to be that guy. First thing in the podcast, it’s out there we go.

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How are

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Jacob Stoops: You. I am

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Jacob Stoops: I gave you the Midwest pronunciation with the Bad accent. So I am

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Jamie Alberico: Okay.

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Oh,

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Jamie Alberico: It means else King

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Jacob Stoops: What, no.

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No.

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Jamie Alberico: Alberico means elf King, Jamie means usurper.

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Well,

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Jacob Stoops: Well, I would say, I was gonna say Game of Thrones. Because of you, soccer, but elf is more Lord of the Rings, so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Or D, amp D do it on

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Jacob Stoops: there or there you go that’s that’s probably a better a better reference, but I actually don’t play d&d so the other person speaking, surprise surprise is Miss Ashley Berman Hale. Hi. How’s it going, Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: Good. I couldn’t keep

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Ashley Berman Hale: My mouth shut, until you

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Jacob Stoops: Enjoy your now.

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Jacob Stoops: Did I pronounce your name right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: No.

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Yes, la

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Thank you very much.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s nothing like face palming the the intros and messing up somebody’s name immediately. So

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Jacob Stoops: Can wish I was the

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Jacob Stoops: Was the first time I’ve done that. But it’s but it’s not you think I’d learned

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Jacob Stoops: Cool. So thank you everybody for being here. I know in Jamie’s case she’s kind of out on the West Coast. So it’s a very early morning so

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Jacob Stoops: Extra Special that she has decided to join us. I did want to make a few remarks and tell a quick story before we kind of dive in.

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Jacob Stoops: The one, one thing is I wanted to pay a bit of tribute my wife’s Grandpa. We just came from his funeral. This weekend and today actually would be his 100th birthday.

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Jacob Stoops: So he decided to to not wait we had planned a surprise birthday party for him on this this past Saturday, and we were, we had had hired a an old

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Jacob Stoops: Style crooner we had had because he’s a Italian we had had a nice Catholic

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Jacob Stoops: BLEEP something sent from the actual Pope in Rome, we had had the governor of Kentucky, the President of the Cincinnati Reds all kinds of people.

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Jacob Stoops: provided some really special things for him to honor his 100th birthday.

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Jacob Stoops: Unfortunately, about three weeks ago he passed away and he pulled one over on us. So instead of going to a surprise 100th birthday party. We went to his funeral this weekend.

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Jacob Stoops: But today, would have been his actual 100th birthday. So what I can only hope is that he, his wife preceded him by about five years is that she called him up to spend his hundredth birthday with her. So Hank Picciano if you can somehow, hear me, we love you and we miss you already

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Jacob Stoops: So now, now that I’m

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Jacob Stoops: A little sad. Sorry, I’m trying goes, it’s still a little Ross of trying to do. I’m trying to hold it back here, but

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Jacob Stoops: Wanted to tell the story of how we were able to book both Jamie and Ashley at the same time and

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Jacob Stoops: I hope that it didn’t come across super creepy. But basically, when we were thinking about Season two. And we were trying to figure out, okay,

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Jacob Stoops: Here’s everybody that we’ve already talked to, and here are the people and it’s a large group of people. You guys are extra, extra special. Obviously, but it’s a large group of people, because there are just so many fantastic SEOs in the in the space and honestly

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Jacob Stoops: We’re going to try to interview every single one of them, because there are so many, but it could take years.

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Jacob Stoops: Which is a good thing. Since we have a podcast but basically we when we had thought about who we want on Ashley and Jamie were kind of close to the top of the list.

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Jacob Stoops: And so we had started, we had started reaching out to people and especially in cases where you don’t directly know each other’s but you are kind of tangentially connected

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Jacob Stoops: As we were in a, in a few cases, you just kind of go through the the different channels. The, the email.

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Jacob Stoops: We use you use whatever’s available to us. So Jeff was connected to Ashley through a text Slack channel. I was connected to to Jamie through Twitter.

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Jacob Stoops: And then we had found somehow emails. I think we pulled them from Jamie, I think I called your email from your website.

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Jacob Stoops: I think it’s not not a robot, which I want to ask about that. And then I somehow we found Ashley’s here. I don’t know. But anyway, so we’re reaching out and we’re in the process. And it’s occurring on the same day and

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Jacob Stoops: We came to found out to find out that not only were we both reaching out to you guys. At the same time, you are literally sitting in the same room while we’re trying to schedule this so

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Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that especially because you didn’t know us directly. It was like these creepy guys trying to schedule us for a pot.

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Jacob Stoops: Yes.

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Jamie Alberico: Actually these guys want to schedule a murder. What are you doing,

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Right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Numbers.

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Jacob Stoops: Vary

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Jacob Stoops: But you guys

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Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: Ashley had just ordered some some birthday brunch for me. And we were at my kitchen table and drain eggs Benedict and something to listen to a local bit around here. And yeah, we both got the same message like hey, she just got an invitation for pitch to

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Jamie Alberico: The oh

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Jeff Louella: Yes, funny.

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Jacob Stoops: Well luckily it all. It all worked out. You guys are a good sports and we appreciate you all coming on. So,

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Jacob Stoops: As as everybody who listens to this podcast knows the hallmark is origin stories backgrounds and what it’s like to be to be an SEO and since we have two

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Jacob Stoops: Guests on this podcast, we’re going to be doing two interviews and depending on timing will probably skip, skip the news. Maybe we’ll

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Jacob Stoops: We were going to maybe talk about tech SEO boost, but I think we can skip that for now. But we’re going to be doing to background story interviews and then later on a deep dive into just general technical SEO. So who wants to go first. Who would like to step up to the plate.

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Now that

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Jamie Alberico: Oh you have see

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Jacob Stoops: All right, Jamie. Since it’s six in the morning or seven in the morning there and you’re

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Jacob Stoops: Fresh on game.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah, I was bitten by a radioactive search engine.

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Jamie Alberico: My Uncle Ben and now I’m here.

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Now you’re here.

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Jacob Stoops: Miss Peter Parker Pedro Parker. Oh.

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Ashley Berman Hale: What was I here, for I got frustrated with other jobs and I like to tinker. All right. Um, I mean we can tell the long story if you want actual details. Is that what this podcast is about

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Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly. I was gonna say well podcast is over a

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Jamie Alberico: Couple of little one liners are like

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Jamie Alberico: cash the check.

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Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I think that was Jamie’s really good job of loving it back to me because

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Ashley Berman Hale: There for me to call not it. So I will get started.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I have a degree in art history which is fantastically useless in the traditional sense.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I love it. Critical thinking is something that is a little bit tough to teach. If you don’t have it. So thank you, college for giving me that

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Ashley Berman Hale: And the first non waitress job I took or non dish dish washing and a bar or non making coffee was a sit down job at a small startup.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Where I had to answer, answer emails for people who are too busy to answer their own emails and pretend to do that. So that was how I got started made friends with the CFO did some audience because I’m picky as hell.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And knew that there was money missing saved him a bunch of money. They got bought out by Overstock and so we got tossed in I got brought down to the exact office there to help out and had someone say, here’s a giant fucking spreadsheet. This is pay per click. Can you figure it out.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And that was tough. And I said, I don’t like this. And I like cool. How about XML sitemap, have you heard of those

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Ashley Berman Hale: So the way that I got started as just trying to figure out how to do that for a big site with lots of inventory. I went and asked questions in a forum, I believe so strongly and

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Ashley Berman Hale: Sharing public information and helping each other. So while I was asking and waiting for an answer. I decided to answer some other questions and got stuck here.

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Ashley Berman Hale: God there’s ultimate nerd forum environments for me to learn in and for me to be moderately accepted by and then I kind of hopped around a bit and found myself very comfortably nestled in the technical SEO spot for a software company.

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Who

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Ashley Berman Hale: High five.

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Ashley Berman Hale: High five. That’s, I mean, I’m still a really good. Well, no, I’m not. I’m still a really good dishwasher and a moderately okay waitress. So I’ve got backup plans.

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Jamie Alberico: How many friends today. Gary Owens now.

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Like seven

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Ashley Berman Hale: My, my arms.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Around children. So, you know,

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Jamie Alberico: fallback plan is ready.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. During the dark during the.com bust. I went to bartending school because I figured the internet was going to go away. And I was like, you know, one thing people like to do when times are bad is drink so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I believe it. My family owned a bar and like the Dyess state in the tree. So my family were bar owners in Utah, and actually under brewery in Montana and they always did. Okay. Because whenever there is, you know, a lot of money or religious oppression beer helps. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: And actually makes really good homemade Kula and it’s almost Christmas Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: I know well

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Ashley Berman Hale: I will bring you a batch. I’m making a local New York match. But then I’ll be back to Colorado. Nice.

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Jeff Louella: Guy have three gallons of lemon cello going on back here for

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Ashley Berman Hale: Them. He’s not lying it people

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Ashley Berman Hale: Dang. All right, jack you got plans later I’m gonna hang out with you.

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Jeff Louella: All right, let’s do it. I got tons of stuff here.

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Jeff Louella: The whole wall whiskies over here to

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Jamie Alberico: Why are we not doing this from just garage.

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Jeff Louella: Come on.

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Ashley Berman Hale: All right, Jamie I deferred you long enough. Now you have to tell

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Jamie Alberico: Magical story. I did the coffee kicking. I was supposed to be a player, right, which is a weird thing to say. And I guess I can certainly do that.

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Jamie Alberico: But that’s where my degree is in my passion was like, I’m gonna write plays and comic books, and then the recession in 2008 head and call times were longer than normal. And I’m trying to contact my student loan folk and find some way to pay them and he

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Jamie Alberico: You know, I was waiting tables at a sushi bar and

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Jamie Alberico: Wasn’t really glamorous bit and got into basically any job that would get me away from cutting my fingers and carrying

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Jamie Alberico: His family without being pushy, the end of the day.

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Jamie Alberico: It’s a really where my stories prematurely.

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Jamie Alberico: Like I did other things at some point somewhere.

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Jamie Alberico: I was a blogger Outreach Manager. That was my first gig, which is pre Penguin on if you are trying to connect to me on LinkedIn. Right now, I would offer the pro tip of remove

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Jamie Alberico: link building from your title before you send that letter.

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Jamie Alberico: Susan, thank you. I’m sure you’re a lovely human I’ve just been hurt before by choosing to copy pasta.

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Jamie Alberico: To the job and house for e commerce company. We like to me doesn’t products and I look back and go, Oh, it’s so cute little that

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Jamie Alberico: actually ended up working for Ashley. So here’s where I story interconnected. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: I interviewed a local agency and then local Jeannine the first interview, do you think is great. Like, we’re gonna put you on a video interview with our had tech SEO. We were like team Tomahawk

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, that’s

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Ashley Berman Hale: Bad racial appropriation.

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Jamie Alberico: Sorry, I’m stating historical facts.

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Jamie Alberico: admitting to whitewash history right now.

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Jamie Alberico: And we’ve learned better and we’re doing better.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just have a lot of apologies in life.

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Jamie Alberico: Hashtag relatable well interview with Ashley, I’m there was this this magical creature who knew all this world of technical SEO is just like a PG podcast. What kind of language. Can I bring to the table right now and reenact

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Jacob Stoops: Wherever you’re comfortable with.

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Jacob Stoops: George

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Jeff Louella: You’re

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Jamie Alberico: In trouble if I tell if I

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Jamie Alberico: Tell the internet that it was love at first Cocker so I’m interviewing with Ashley and we’re talking

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Jamie Alberico: I don’t remember what the deal was I think about previous job and what it was like waiting tables and somehow the story of an individual thing rather cantankerous king came up and actually

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Jamie Alberico: Miss, miss a big like always being a cock sucker. When you’re that guy.

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Jamie Alberico: On a moment we bonded and the person that hired me immediately most tech out to john Schilling, at that time, because they took us. He goes, where

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Jamie Alberico: And the bathroom children have both Marketing SEO traditional style and dev didn’t really have a new should have our own just yet.

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Jamie Alberico: I picked them several months they, you know, kick it back to me and be like, Yeah, I want you to join the team and that time I like waiting for Android little cards like, Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to interview I really want to work with Ashley.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I will do anything once somebody flatters me and we have great chemistry. So it was, it was awesome, because it was really important to me to always do some peer collaboration with technical SEO, in particular, just like you do peer reviews. When you’re coding

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Ashley Berman Hale: And it’s really important to me to reach back and bring more women, along with me so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I wasn’t far ahead and I’m certainly am a decent click behind Jamie now because she’s, she’s had a really fast trajectory. But the fact that I can bring more women on to a technical team was really fucking awesome.

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Jamie Alberico: It was 100 recent article women on that game. Yeah, yeah. There were two of us.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Math.

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Jeff Louella: Jackie.

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You. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: It’s awesome. So

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Jacob Stoops: So I think the first thing I would ask is what is it about technical SEO that excites both of you will like why because there’s there’s all kinds of different types of SEO like

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Jacob Stoops: Depending on like different bat. It’s like you almost get to pick and choose what kind of SEO you like to do, and I feel like

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Jacob Stoops: You kind of have to be able to dabble in a little bit of everything. But I feel like over the course of time people develop their specialty based on you know what they what they enjoy most. So what is it about technical SEO specifically that you guys enjoy

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Ashley Berman Hale: I like thinking about the evolution of it. I always think of the adage that, you know, back in the day, everyone was their town doctor and you’re going to college. This was also your dentist.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Let that sink in for a second and then, you know, we started getting better and getting specialist. So I think we’re in a really cool time of SEO where there are these deep specialists.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I got into technical SEO because I was just so curious. Like, that seems so smart and clever and an interesting

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Ashley Berman Hale: That I wanted to learn it and I wanted to learn from smart people. Also, I am just a shitty marketer, like the anti marketer. I can’t write

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Ashley Berman Hale: Like if someone asked me write a blog, I would rather quit my job I’ve come close before a video the nine. The people who hired us who were very gentle and patient, they definitely gave up after making me white write one blog, and I, I just, I can’t promote and so for me.

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Jamie Alberico: For like 4000 words, it’s still one of the best resources on

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Jamie Alberico: Security at that time.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, well, I

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Jamie Alberico: Wrote Gordon Duff and beautiful.

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Jamie Alberico: White Paper, essentially. So let me give you credit

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Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, not liking it. It’s really hard, whereas the technical stuff. I am a voice and a snoop. And that’s why I like the Internet.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I snoop on people in my free time and I snoop on your site during work time and that’s why I love it. I like to go find problems and tinker and figure out what somebody busted and how we can make it better.

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About you, James.

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Jamie Alberico: Oh, I fell in love with technical SEO I missed it. I was hired for cascade and as a marketing SEO went to work on the blog and all that, but in my domain was, you know, monitoring our

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Jamie Alberico: keywords and we were, I think, the second or third largest e commerce site for restaurant equipment on suddenly all of my rankings just

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Jamie Alberico: fell out they’ll drop the bomb dropped them and maybe we can figure out what’s going on. And that led down and it’s really good 11 day binge.

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Jamie Alberico: Like some people go to Vegas when they go on a binge. I went like an 11 day binge of like trying to figure out what happened to this website. And at the end of it. It was a home of homebrew CMS, the result we had to break the site. Fine.

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Jamie Alberico: And kind of start from scratch. I had to go here and learn about how to map all of the specific content together, how to figure out when things were no longer useful. That’s my son yelling at us right now, by the way. Hi tank boy. Say hello to the internet.

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Jacob Stoops: By the way, I super impressed that you managed to keep talking without breaking stride as you let your cat in and open your curtains. That was pretty. That was pretty awesome.

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Jamie Alberico: Sorry internet tank takes precedence on all matters. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: That’s, yeah. I fell in love with mechanical co authoring getting that chance to

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Jamie Alberico: Say what we say a dying site. We have to go through to make a series of very dramatic changes and that rebuilding at home growing CML and increasingly great band of it.

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Jeff Louella: I think it comes down to a lot of

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Jeff Louella: A lot of people get here, and that’s one reason I love like the origin story he’s because we all get here in different ways and whether you’re coming from a technical background or not it. We all one thing we have in common is that curiosity to dive deep

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Jeff Louella: And 11 days to their I spent. It’s funny, I used to do web development and

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Jeff Louella: Most of my friends were on AT LIKE AFTER MIDNIGHT AND ONCE A while I’m not on online as much that late night. But when I am. It’s still the same people, same developer guys like cuz it’s like some reason my brain starts tweaking and start doing well at like 11 o’clock. Yeah, so

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Jamie Alberico: That weird golden hour of Cannibal logical brain that

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, we do later in the evening.

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Jeff Louella: So it’s fun. And I’ve spent many, many, many hours just like going down a rabbit hole and no one ever know like at the end of the day, my wife will be like, what are we doing go four in the morning, not just like

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Jeff Louella: I don’t know. I was trying to get some code work and sometimes it’s just you missed a period somewhere and now it’s two in the morning and

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Like

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Jamie Alberico: fancy clothes.

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Jeff Louella: So, and then having that like coming into the SEO side of things, really, kind of, it’s interesting. It’s one thing I have trouble with with new guys coming into SEO. It’s like

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Jeff Louella: I want to learn technical SEO and I’m like, are you willing to stay up for 10 days and try

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Jeff Louella: Out some piece of something that just drives you crazy. You can’t go to sleep until you figure it out and and you can’t teach that, of course, and it’s one of those where we trying to figure out what like how do I get that into a lot of my team. How do I get into them and

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Jamie Alberico: Either. How do I do that.

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Jamie Alberico: Cheryl ambition interview process. You just give them two pieces of drinking a paperclip go kidnap and see

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Jamie Alberico: If they can do is that you’re new to this.

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Jeff Louella: Never thought about that one.

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Jacob Stoops: MacGyver style.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, I mean I was figuring out how to make an unusual shape spec for they had the actual app items when

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Jamie Alberico: I was a game changer for me a call. I can go ahead and make all these API calls. And I can begin to reuse this work and, you know, each time I do I swap out, pick up, pick and choose configuration and

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Jamie Alberico: Let me scale up so they get good pieces learning to be a Technic technical SEO is after you’ve gone through and burn yourself out on an insane rabbit hole that you know showed you some great things as to how do I read that information.

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Ashley Berman Hale: You’re failing nine and 10 times tinkering around then SEO technical SEO for you.

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Jamie Alberico: So you want to fail, like a flying SPACE MONKEY and plume of fireworks and we have a career for you.

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Jacob Stoops: One thing I am finding interesting is I think three out of four of us have a background in the in the arts. So I come from a graphic design background. We’ve got an art history background.

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Jacob Stoops: And then kind of a playwriting background. And it’s like, That’s not very technical stuff I’m I mean I’m sure there is some technicality to it, but it’s not like code in as my in laws say Jake works on computers and really don’t, um,

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Jamie Alberico: I mean, check out gun applies the code and the playwriting

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Jacob Stoops: Right and

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Jamie Alberico: They got enough one a bit of fire and three

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Jacob Stoops: I just wonder where the not even necessarily the the technical SEO. The, the SEO part of it. But with that kind of a background amongst all of us, where do we feel like

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Jacob Stoops: The, the need and the passion because I’m very passionate about.

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Jacob Stoops: Technical SEO as well, although I don’t like to be bucket it as a technical SEO. I like to be bucket it as just more of a general like jack of all trades, but

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Jacob Stoops: There is a certain passion for getting in and getting my hands dirty and, you know, with a website and coming from a graphic design background. I just wonder like sometimes. Where did that come from.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just

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Jacob Stoops: I can’t even put my put my finger on it because graphic design is more art, whereas I feel like technical and coding and building websites is a little bit more science. So I don’t know, maybe I feel like. And I guess I needed some balance in in the second half of my life.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I have I have pretty strong feelings about that after being chastised for mocking my degree.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Listen, my dad looked at me and rolled his eyes and he said, good luck paying for college on your own.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But art history is one of those degrees, where people are like, what the hell are you going to do with that so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I will tell you that the greatest thing I learned from my degrees to spend time looking

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Ashley Berman Hale: And critical thinking. Because what you can do is you can uncover individual parts of a painting or learn about someone’s life or what was going on in the culture was going on in the economy.

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Ashley Berman Hale: With diseases were being spread based on the iconography.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And when you look at someone site, you’re essentially stripping back layers of. Where are they getting their imagery. What’s the content. What’s the history of the site and how many hands gone through

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Ashley Berman Hale: And then you pull back further to see what the bones are and where the skeletons are hidden the bad ones, the broken bones. I don’t know where I’m going with this. Yeah, but

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Jamie Alberico: Someone redesigned it and it was like that fresco about the will and his woman repainted.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, the none.

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Ashley Berman Hale: None that repainting yes we have done many

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Sites in our life.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it does feel like there’s a really good intersection of I think Fine Arts and Humanities help teach people to be open about humans and to look critically

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Ashley Berman Hale: At what they create. And so while I have a laughable degree to some people, and I’ll be the first to make a joke. I really don’t think I could do what I do today without having spent the time and learning how to unravel the story from that degree.

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Jacob Stoops: I think that’s a great point night I honestly I never thought about it that way. And I remember being in college and thinking a little bit. The

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Jacob Stoops: The same thing as I was kind of getting getting deeper. Maybe that’s why it never actually worked worked out for me.

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Jacob Stoops: In terms of the graphic design in college and kind of taking that into A into a career because I was worried about money and how I was going to pay for things and so on and so forth. And it’s not necessarily unless you’re really, really, really good or really rare.

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Jacob Stoops: Talent not saying SEOs aren’t talented, but I think

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Jamie Alberico: At that again from the machine.

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Jamie Alberico: Right, while you’re in a job.

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Jacob Stoops: Great. You don’t even know. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like the timing for me was just right because this is like mid 2000s. And as I was flaming out of college SEO was

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Jacob Stoops: A great opportunity that not a lot of people could could do at that point in time. And I was like, well, well, there’s my differentiator. There’s what, there’s. What can make me unique and I feel like a lot of people

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Jacob Stoops: Ended up like that, in terms of looking looking for something else and not necessarily knowing what it was and not being able to put your finger on it. But before you know it, you’ve got a job in SEO at that time. Not a lot of people knew how to do which made it incredibly valuable.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah. Was it was pretty that’s kind of

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Jamie Alberico: My philosophy.

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Jamie Alberico: And I find that my analytics philosophy is if if L statements for trying to muscle. So I absolutely deplorable and how good your do my mid term on the meaning of the word completely terrible back knowledge now deeply, deeply value that code is just living, we’re looking at it. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: So one thing I detected and Ashley, I’m calling you to the carpet again. And the reason I’m calling you to the carpet, not necessarily calling you to the carpet in a negative way we do talk a lot about self doubt and imposter syndrome and how

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Jacob Stoops: Powerful that can be and based on kind of what you had said about the writing and not necessarily feeling like you’re a good writer. And I’ve actually i feel like i’ve read your, your stuff for quite a while so like I think you’re doing something right.

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Jacob Stoops: Like, do you ever feel a sense of imposter syndrome and like self doubt. And I don’t know, I just, I always like to dive into that ask

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Jamie Alberico: You actually

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Ashley Berman Hale: Do I every single waking minutes, um,

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Ashley Berman Hale: No, I think that

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Ashley Berman Hale: You know, it’s a pendulum. I think that, in general, I feel like I am utter bullshit at most things

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Ashley Berman Hale: But the one thing that makes me feel good about myself and about the work that I’m doing is when I can help somebody else, whether it’s to solve a problem or

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Ashley Berman Hale: To get a better job I end up being this random career counselor and helping people get good jobs which I actually like I love doing.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really struggle with my knowledge and I had to come to terms with. I’m never going to be the

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Ashley Berman Hale: smartest person in the room. But if you’re the kind of person that surround yourself with smarter people like you’re in pretty you’re in a pretty good spot.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I may not be the most clever, but I do like to learn and I have an appetite to learn and to try to understand so

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Ashley Berman Hale: imposter syndrome is really, really, really, really real. And I suffered in other areas of my life, including being a parent and playing a sport, but

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Ashley Berman Hale: If you can find one thing about yourself that you can put work toward that you can feel good about I’ve found that it allows me to sort of keep going.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And when I can’t. I call Jamie and she usually tells me to buck up that I am an important person with, you know, capital T thoughts and I deserve to be here and I can help people so

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it is something I struggle with. And it’s not even this passive struggling, it’s, I mean, I can’t even tell you I have

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I have OCD, but like obsessive thought patterns and one that’s been in my head for about 17 years is waking up and just wanting to scream into the void Mia, what the fuck am I even doing

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Ashley Berman Hale: What is this like and you could probably go back through my Twitter and see like how many times I’ve actually tweeted tweeted that out is like what am I even doing to help. Um so yeah I don’t recommend it but if anyone wants to talk about the old capitalized syndrome from here.

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Jacob Stoops: Understand in the reason I asked was, and I hope it didn’t come across as rude. Um, I saw I suffer from it as well. It’s like it’s, it can be crushing sometimes and for me.

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Jacob Stoops: Part of digging myself out of it was that this podcast going and feeling like, hey, I am good enough to go and talk to all of these really smart people, and I do know enough to be able to hold my ground.

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Jacob Stoops: With some of the best best folks in the in the industry and there’s just, it’s not just here, it permeates a lot of different parts of my life, and it is it is a daily

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Jacob Stoops: A daily struggle, and I know like it has been other than SEO. In general, probably the most frequently reoccurring subject across every episode of the podcast. So in the industry for whatever

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Jacob Stoops: Reason, you’ve got a bunch of people suffering from imposter syndrome. And it’s, I just, I find it quite amazing because of how many smart people there are, that people

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Jacob Stoops: That are that are that are incredibly, incredibly talented don’t seem to believe in their self and I just keep asking why, why is that, and

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Jacob Stoops: I think one of the best things that can come out of this podcast is to let people know. Like, you’re not alone. Some of the best people in the industry have self doubt literally all the time.

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Ashley Berman Hale: All the time. All the time and

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Jamie Alberico: I think our industry is made for it, though.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, it really is.

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Jamie Alberico: Our end everything we do.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: I’m there is very much the chance. You’ve been down this rabbit hole for so long. You come back up. You like Melbourne coast.

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Jamie Alberico: You’re no longer sure if you’ve gone full broken Roomba or have you figured out something incredibly valuable. Yeah, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: And I feel like there are times, especially if you work on the agency side. I haven’t necessarily experienced this quite as much in house but like

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Jacob Stoops: There’s a lot of pressure and you can be the the best SEO, but if you’re putting a situation where there’s just no opportunity to succeed, doesn’t really matter how good of an SEO, you are. For example, if a client doesn’t implement your recommendations and then nothing

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Ashley Berman Hale: Happens right so

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Jacob Stoops: I think even the best SEOs go through a lot of failure and hopefully a lot of success as well, right, or we wouldn’t have jobs, but I think there’s a fear of

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Jacob Stoops: Failure with our clients as well as success and sometimes it’s in our hands and a lot of times it’s not

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Jacob Stoops: And I think for me, like there are times when that part of its crushing like okay, what can I say to make them think differently or to make them realize that hey, this is actually

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Jacob Stoops: We’re doing. We’re doing well, even if the results don’t fight look like it yet, stuff like that. So there’s a lot of pressure.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Well, sorry. Is it okay if I hop back in here cuz yeah

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Ashley Berman Hale: Well, and you’re dealing with such smart people. Right. I might think I’m clever and then I take two days off to roller skate and drink myself into oblivion, and come back and the entire industry has changed. So it’s very easy to feel like you’re slipping.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really, really love this new trend that our industry has of kind of coming together to support each other because I have a pretty big gap.

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Ashley Berman Hale: In my SEO career as far as paid jobs and it was because of the toxic environment and the culture that we were in it just didn’t feel good it felt kind of gross like there was some shitty things happening.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But now I i love that people are talking more to each other. If you don’t know Mary Davies and the industry. She has created groups that help people and give them a safe place to talk about

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Ashley Berman Hale: Their personal struggles that I find really incredible. And for me, personally, I’ve I’m trying to be very brave capital, be brave, about talking about my mental illness and my doubts and the bad days that I have

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I have felt not only accepted but embraced and holy shit, I still have a job like some of the stuff I say in public. I can’t believe but

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Ashley Berman Hale: Being able to be out there and be vulnerable hasn’t hurt my career as far as I know.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I would just encourage anyone if you’re in that place and you feel any sort of really from talking about it. You’re in good company and not in good company. As in, like, hell yeah let’s have a depression party.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Because I have thrown other parties that are better, but you’re in good company in that there’s generally some really compassionate people here that can empathize and can stand by you.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And sometimes that’s all you mean like sometimes I get a lot just from going to Jamie’s house or meeting somewhere and working side by side without even talking

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve worked remotely for 10 years. So that’s very important.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, come on, really.

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Ashley Berman Hale: You’re three

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Jeff Louella: Now you’re if three of being removed, I guess, somewhere around there and I do

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Jeff Louella: sometimes miss having that camaraderie in the office where you you can’t talk about some of the stuff that’s on your, you know, things that are on your team. I mean, I really feel after watching a lot of the tech SEO boost stuff.

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Jeff Louella: I’m like, wow, I think, I think I need to really step up my game because 80% of that was about Python and machine learning, which

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Jeff Louella: I do think has you know a place. It just seemed like a whole conference based on it kind of made me like think overnight. I’m all of a sudden going like, I’m so far behind. I think it’s just why

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Jeff Louella: I always felt like I was pretty

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Jeff Louella: Much always a little bit of a step ahead. But I think one. Now we have with there is such a great tech community.

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Jeff Louella: That it’s like, oh, I think the tech guys aren’t the ones that are out there like pounding your chest, saying, look at me, and think now we have

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Jeff Louella: More of that community. And you know what the tech SEO slack group that were in there and I’m just like, wow, there’s like a million tech SEOs i thought i was like a one of a kind.

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Jeff Louella: And now there’s just yeah like that whole conference. I was watching going okay

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Jamie Alberico: I mean jr was like, and I made my own internet

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: The bar was raised.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, the best like I swear to God, if I wasn’t married. He’s in trouble because those brains.

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Jacob Stoops: Looking I’m smart and like, I’m like, people like Jr. I’m like damn it I blame you. It’s your fault for being so smart, and I’m so

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Jacob Stoops: And

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Jeff Louella: So,

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Jeff Louella: He’s got that Southern charm.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Tuesday. Oh yeah, well,

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Jamie Alberico: Cupid, though, and I think we need to I

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Jacob Stoops: Know, I know.

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Jacob Stoops: Matt.

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Jacob Stoops: Was being facetious. This

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Jamie Alberico: But

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Jamie Alberico: Something that I’ll share my story here about feeling stupid and Ashley really being there for me because it’s like

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Jamie Alberico: So we went to tech. Are you into Google IO together. My first I, oh, I think it was 2016 HF, we went to. And if you’ve ever been to IO, you can go to

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Jamie Alberico: This panel to panel to panel with the most amazing experts in their field who knows so much on are bringing so much to move the community forward on to celebrate. I spent the day

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Jamie Alberico: Together concert every year and I spent the concert in bathroom so 27 hyperventilating and having an absolute panic attack.

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Jamie Alberico: On why I was there on how I had taken a spot from someone who could event here and using this information actually done something with it.

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Jamie Alberico: It was it was a terrible, terrible sensation. But at the end of it. I learned to offer myself grace and in those moments where I am clearly the dumbest kid in the room.

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Jamie Alberico: And that’s okay because I’m still in the room, and I’m willing to ask those questions that seem so one on one. And I feel like I’m willing to

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Jamie Alberico: Learn from people who are a lot smarter than me so Ashley prides herself on and curating up selection of really, really beautiful and brilliant people

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Jamie Alberico: Being around her and I learned to get there myself learn that it’s okay to feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Like that’s officially now my happy place is an absence of gravity just picking a point in my horizons. Right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I, I considered a special talent to be surrounded by people that are smarter than you and then instead of feeling self conscious. If you can find comfort there and excitement there, then you’re you are good. I’m going to do.

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Jamie Alberico: Like roller derby for the ego.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, yeah. I’m also the worst roller derby player, but if you can find comfort in getting your actual ass kicked. Then it’s for you.

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Jamie Alberico: Humble here again because you just

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Jamie Alberico: Want on fallible brawl.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, I wonder, be prom queen, you guys.

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Jeff Louella: I’m so nice.

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Jacob Stoops: How long have you been doing roller derby.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Um, two and a half years, something like that. Not very long. It’s the first sport. I’ve ever played and I am an overweight, you know, working person who sits down for the last 36 years of my 36 year life. So it was a trip and a challenge. But heck

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Jacob Stoops: What, like what puts you because roller derby is not something like people do very often. So like you’re sitting around two or three years ago, like

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Jacob Stoops: Maybe I think I’ll go do roller derby like how did that come about.

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Ashley Berman Hale: So, um, I have two very fabulous daughters and the oldest one was into real interview she had read a graphic novel called roller girl, which is a fantastic graphic novel.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And she was interested in doing it, but I didn’t know anything about it. And we found out that there was a local team for adults and juniors

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Ashley Berman Hale: And she wasn’t quite old enough, and so I told her that I would give it a shot and see how this whole roller derby thing worked and

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Ashley Berman Hale: I gave it a shot and definitely threw up like my first night there, but was like dude, this this gear is expensive. I have to do this three months. Otherwise, like

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve made a financial mistake which makes me nervous. So I stuck on for three months and just kept going.

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Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a, it’s a funny environment. I know it seems you know a bit abrasive. But I will tell you that I have found

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Ashley Berman Hale: More community with other women there than I have any other place in my life more acceptance more diverse women, they will absolutely murder you on the track, but they’re the first ones to pick you up off the floor.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Constant compliments and encouragement, so maybe I’m there for the ego. I’m not the best roller skater. But it just feels really good to be around genuine people that want to see you succeed, but also are not going to go easy on you.

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Jacob Stoops: And that are going to elbow you in the face.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Sometimes I mean that’s not fully legal, but hey, but you know they’re the first person is to drive you to the ER and bring you a muffin while you’re waiting for the x ray so

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Ashley Berman Hale: So it’s a really solid community. I would say that, you know, when we work on computers so much. I would encourage you to get a hobby that involves your hands or physically wearing yourself out that’s been really important for the balance of my mental health to

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Ashley Berman Hale: Anyway, joined realtor becomes skate with me to cover letter b.com alright, just kidding.

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Jacob Stoops: Farther

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Jacob Stoops: Now, forgive me for my roller derby knowledge are there men’s roller derby circuits.

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Ashley Berman Hale: There are

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Jacob Stoops: Indeed, wow.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, there are Myrna which is my favorite acronym is the one and it’s the men’s roller derby Association. There’s a great team in Denver, where Jamie is there, same all over the country.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Still pretty female dominated. It’s a for women by women volunteer run sport all nonprofits. So we have a pretty strongly, but in the men’s roller derby women are also welcome to join. So usually when I meant to be one or two women.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But yeah, get out there strap on your skates.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I had no one to help you come up with a penny Derby name.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I got you. Oh.

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Jeff Louella: No, I’m gonna be taking my daughter to we were she’s found a new love for roller skating.

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Jeff Louella: And I mean, she’s only nine now but she’s I told her I was gonna take it a roller derby and she’s super excited but then the the league that’s around here went on break. But it could THEY COME BACK THE END OF JANUARY so

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Ashley Berman Hale: We’re on break too but Jeff, you said ping me offline because my nine year old was the one who got me into it.

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Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. Well, hopefully it doesn’t get me into it into it but

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s hard to roller skate and not smile so straps escapes on

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Jeff Louella: Agreed. Now, they were fun. We go out there. We every kid in my house has a sport and my one daughter. We finally found. She’s an artist. She’s the artist of the family, but we found her sport, which is roller skating so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Isn’t that crazy how it works. Um, so, Jacob and Jeff, if you’re okay with this. Since we talked earlier a little bit of imposter syndrome. I’m going to

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’m going to say off topic. Real quick, and want to put them on a last thought out there on that item is just that we’ve had a lot of suicides in our industry, the past few years, there’s been I think I know this. There’s been too many one is too many. But there’s been too many

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I just open invitation. If anyone out there is Phil and rough and wants to chat. I am wicked good at bad memes mom jokes inappropriate comments and drunk texting, so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Just reach out and talk to someone. Yeah, I would.

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Jacob Stoops: I would say the same. I would offer the same invitation. I’ve

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Jacob Stoops: I mean, not everybody has been able to have experience with people going through that I do have

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Jacob Stoops: Experienced not necessarily myself but somebody very close to me has been battling with that and having those types of thoughts. So I’m maybe a little more well suited than than, than the next person. So I would also offer

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Jacob Stoops: Community to anyone that needs to talk and

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Jacob Stoops: Please reach out reach out you’ve got you’ve got friends, you’ve got family. Don’t let it go too far.

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Jacob Stoops: Don’t let it go too far.

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Jacob Stoops: Okay, we just got

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Ashley Berman Hale: Really really taken like I am so sorry I’ve cried twice so

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Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be done.

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Jacob Stoops: Once I’ve almost tear it up. So, man.

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God, I’m gonna

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Jacob Stoops: Get me here. Um,

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Jamie Alberico: Well, I think it was monotone robot and I’ve been a beautiful because we are fallible soft, squishy people

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Jamie Alberico: And being real humans is what keeps us together in a world that’s based on ideas and one TV respond partners and

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Jacob Stoops: Those that were not a robot came from.

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Jamie Alberico: Not a Robot coming from Ashley Berman Hale. Yeah, her bio section of the website says, I’m not a robot and she was sharing this off to me.

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Jamie Alberico: Just fantastic getting tickets and make a new branch all together, have an interest in doing well, can I

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Jamie Alberico: Have to Google domains bought the domain fun drinking game. By the way, just go when you get drugged by random domains.

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Jamie Alberico: Robot may have been purchased in one of those moments, a couple of beers and it’s a it’s very effective way to help people understand, you know, I guess, to where I said, all those captures you fill out. I’m not a robot. But I thought

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Jeff Louella: I recently bought a domain.

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Jeff Louella: Lasers and bacon.

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Jeff Louella: Because I figured. What’s cooler than lasers and bacon.

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Jamie Alberico: That that

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Jacob Stoops: We can do with that site. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: You know that goes right now it’s in the vault of 30 other web domains, I one day, one wants to start so

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Jacob Stoops: Wow, what are, what made you think that and how much you had a drink.

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Jeff Louella: You know, I was looking, I was looking up laser engraving machines. And I was like, you know, it makes lasers cooler bacon.

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Jacob Stoops: Bacon just makes everything cooler, I guess.

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Jamie Alberico: Why are you custom engraving, the bacon.

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Jeff Louella: Know,

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Jamie Alberico: If any wedding thing.

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Jamie Alberico: Could be.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Market market it do it now.

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Ashley Berman Hale: The only thing that

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Jacob Stoops: Does not make cooler what sounds cool is vodka, that that

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I’ve had baked out

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Jacob Stoops: Bad

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Jamie Alberico: flavor to it. That’s not okay.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been working a Bloody Mary, but that’s the only time she

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Jamie Alberico: Really apply practical application of that about God.

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Jacob Stoops: I’m

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Jacob Stoops: writing and speaking so

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Jacob Stoops: Jamie nationally. I feel like you guys both do a mix or a fair amount of both writing and public speaking.

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Jacob Stoops: And then I also wanted to ask, Jamie. How did that video which you’ve now become kind of, I guess, the default representative for JavaScript SEO in connection with Google.

414
00:47:59.520 –> 00:48:08.910
Jacob Stoops: Video with Martin, um, how did that come about and and after that question. I’d love to get into the public speaking side of things, but I wanted to ask

415
00:48:08.940 –> 00:48:09.990
Ashley Berman Hale: You. I mean, is

416
00:48:11.550 –> 00:48:17.760
Ashley Berman Hale: I just would do. That is so cool that you are that person. I just know it tickles me. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up because it’s pretty bad.

417
00:48:18.240 –> 00:48:18.510
It is

418
00:48:19.830 –> 00:48:25.680
Jamie Alberico: JOHN MAYER I went ahead and made it the other day in JavaScript. The devil on I’m going to be very, very happy.

419
00:48:26.700 –> 00:48:28.020
Jamie Alberico: That started

420
00:48:29.460 –> 00:48:36.540
Jamie Alberico: Doing migrations international talk to Brighton SEO. I think that was my second or third talk ever you want to count meetups as well.

421
00:48:38.160 –> 00:48:49.890
Jamie Alberico: There was another human on my panel who is also discussing JavaScript framework and SEO and me to do a video meet up before the conference to figure out if we were stepping on each other’s toes.

422
00:48:50.430 –> 00:49:01.230
Jamie Alberico: I’m terrible at time zones absolutely awful at it ended up being like three in the morning seven my leg TARDIS bath road my blue hairs all a frenzy on

423
00:49:01.920 –> 00:49:08.070
Jamie Alberico: The screen based up and they realized oh my face, my face was like 15 feet wide right now because that’s the Google office.

424
00:49:08.880 –> 00:49:16.350
Jamie Alberico: And I just happen to be lucky enough to me bar, and as he he had just joined the webmaster team, I believe, Brighton was one of his first talk

425
00:49:16.980 –> 00:49:23.070
Jamie Alberico: On and just had a really lovely time talking with the team and he will show up too bright in with our blue hair becomes

426
00:49:23.700 –> 00:49:33.780
Jamie Alberico: a running gag that you’ve got to have blue hair to know JavaScript SEO, he invited me out to and from developers on it when they’re

427
00:49:34.380 –> 00:49:39.210
Jamie Alberico: Up to do this video me an amazing producer, your brother chance to meet and she’s on

428
00:49:40.110 –> 00:49:54.390
Jamie Alberico: All those video series. She’s lovely human being. It happened to be the right place, right time I’m betting on the right voice. I bet on JavaScript frameworks are being something that we continue to grow and provide a really effective user experience.

429
00:49:55.440 –> 00:49:59.940
Jamie Alberico: Getting our redesigned first place in 2014 we launched in 2015

430
00:50:04.620 –> 00:50:16.620
Jacob Stoops: I would say that was 2014 JavaScript was way ahead of your time. I feel like search engines even still today, although there are so much better than they were.

431
00:50:17.640 –> 00:50:20.970
Jacob Stoops: Still have a lot of trouble with crawling and I say,

432
00:50:21.000 –> 00:50:23.670
Jamie Alberico: 2014 when we got the project greenlight it took

433
00:50:24.360 –> 00:50:26.220
Jacob Stoops: He says to them, getting

434
00:50:26.280 –> 00:50:28.830
Jacob Stoops: Done SEO and 2014 so

435
00:50:29.160 –> 00:50:32.220
Jamie Alberico: No, no, we were rebuilding the site at that time and

436
00:50:32.580 –> 00:50:33.270
Jacob Stoops: Maybe a few weeks.

437
00:50:33.510 –> 00:50:38.610
Jamie Alberico: After Google announced they were deprecating the Ajax crawler the site went live

438
00:50:39.150 –> 00:50:39.510
Okay.

439
00:50:40.560 –> 00:50:46.470
Jamie Alberico: I mean, we definitely did a plane SPACE MONKEY. Like, let’s see what happens. We actually called that project space party.

440
00:50:47.760 –> 00:50:59.970
Jacob Stoops: Nice. So, so with the with the public speaking, you guys. I feel like both do a fair amount of public speaking and or public moderating. What does that been like

441
00:51:02.580 –> 00:51:03.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Gary

442
00:51:06.930 –> 00:51:13.350
Ashley Berman Hale: So I man. I’m a bit of a reluctance speaker, and I’m very not polished, but I really like doing it.

443
00:51:14.100 –> 00:51:21.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, so, hashtag. If you’re, if you don’t have production level value conferences and you want to hang out and talk about cool things I’m game.

444
00:51:21.900 –> 00:51:30.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, but I use it as a way to personally push myself to go deeper into topics as well as just to make friends. So I’ve been working from home for 10 years

445
00:51:32.190 –> 00:51:35.520
Ashley Berman Hale: So I need to get out of the house, a couple times a year. So

446
00:51:35.520 –> 00:51:36.180
Jeff Louella: That was

447
00:51:36.300 –> 00:51:47.100
Ashley Berman Hale: So is pretty important. And then it’s just it’s a bit of a self challenge. So I had, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. As a kid, and took five years of speech therapy so

448
00:51:47.820 –> 00:51:53.340
Ashley Berman Hale: As a big fuck you to my jeans I decided to do more public speaking as a high school or an adult. So

449
00:51:53.820 –> 00:51:59.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Part of that is just a little personal renegade but it’s fun. I would love to say that more conferences, though.

450
00:52:00.330 –> 00:52:05.550
Ashley Berman Hale: Bring more people to present collaboratively like I love presenting with Jamie and with other people that I know.

451
00:52:06.450 –> 00:52:09.840
Ashley Berman Hale: It helps to get you more bang for your buck again that peer review and peer editing.

452
00:52:10.800 –> 00:52:19.680
Ashley Berman Hale: And moderating is also fantastic instead of having the same conference organizers. If you’re welcome have other people in the field. There’s just so many cool opportunities there so

453
00:52:20.160 –> 00:52:26.730
Ashley Berman Hale: Like I said, I’m not a natural speaker, I definitely get nervous. I am known to throw up either before or after or both.

454
00:52:26.790 –> 00:52:27.060
Can

455
00:52:28.650 –> 00:52:39.630
Ashley Berman Hale: You just but I still enjoy doing it and really appreciate it opportunities, but it’s it’s wild. It’s weird right i mean i go straight social blackout when I’m up there. Well,

456
00:52:39.870 –> 00:52:43.500
Jeff Louella: Actually, you also started the rally SEO Meetup group right

457
00:52:43.560 –> 00:52:45.750
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh, you bring it back, Jeff.

458
00:52:46.470 –> 00:52:48.180
Jeff Louella: Well, I mean, to go from not being

459
00:52:48.210 –> 00:52:55.260
Jeff Louella: Liking to speak to starting, you know, the largest Meetup group about SEO. That’s kind of like

460
00:52:55.530 –> 00:52:57.510
Jeff Louella: I’m jealous that I don’t live in Raleigh, sometimes

461
00:52:58.920 –> 00:53:03.300
Jeff Louella: I make it up there a couple times, you know, during the conferences and things like that. But at the same time.

462
00:53:04.080 –> 00:53:13.920
Jeff Louella: The community here, there seems really awesome. And it seems like anyone. It’s like a lot of helping each other grow and and it seems like an awesome community that’s

463
00:53:14.520 –> 00:53:23.580
Jeff Louella: You know, where we have people like Jr and Patrick and and you know every time I go or see anyone there. I’m like, wow, you all live in Raleigh, like how Raleigh become

464
00:53:24.150 –> 00:53:33.870
Ashley Berman Hale: Thing. Okay, so I will tell you that is one of my proudest moments. Um, I guess I’m like a little bit of a mama by heart, even though I’m not, I should not be left alone to raise any children but

465
00:53:34.860 –> 00:53:45.030
Ashley Berman Hale: It was when I was so I had moved to North Carolina after my father and my brother had died and decided on a fresh start moved to a place I never knew and

466
00:53:46.500 –> 00:53:53.100
Ashley Berman Hale: I just convince my boss to let me use his office space to maybe try to get a few people together off hours to talk about this stuff.

467
00:53:54.030 –> 00:54:10.500
Ashley Berman Hale: And luckily for me. I was like, do you want to own it. And he said, No, go ahead, which was pretty awesome. But the first local. So here the first rally SEO meetup was definitely in the single digits. And I made homemade pies to try and bribe people to show up, um,

468
00:54:11.790 –> 00:54:18.090
Ashley Berman Hale: So it started out very, very small. But it was a really, really cool way to develop speaking skills for me.

469
00:54:18.390 –> 00:54:24.780
Ashley Berman Hale: But also to try to influence the market, a little bit like I told you I took a big long break from SEO because it was a little sticky so back then. I was

470
00:54:25.290 –> 00:54:35.130
Ashley Berman Hale: On a little bit more of a rampage of kindness. So I made it free and I made sure that they were different types for all levels that they were takeaways and actionable insights and that

471
00:54:35.670 –> 00:54:42.540
Ashley Berman Hale: All I was trying to do was enable local businesses to either do the work themselves or to know enough to be able to hire without liability.

472
00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:57.690
Ashley Berman Hale: And that sucker grew. I mean we out group at times. I was just begging businesses like hey, if I can get everyone to buy a beer. Can I, you know, hang out in this corner of your bar for an hour tonight and also if no one’s going to buy beer. I’ll just buy them all. It’s fine.

473
00:54:58.860 –> 00:55:07.650
Ashley Berman Hale: But it it grew and grew quickly and I can be a little anti social by nature. And so I had a partner after the first year to come and fill Buckley

474
00:55:08.430 –> 00:55:16.230
Ashley Berman Hale: Who is part of that like Patrick jr group. I think he’s a little header IBM. He’s fantastic but he is a social butterfly so

475
00:55:16.680 –> 00:55:23.670
Ashley Berman Hale: It was another situation where it couldn’t have been the way it did without partnering with somebody. So sharing is caring and what a cool way to start off

476
00:55:24.090 –> 00:55:28.740
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, my professional SEO career and kind of restarted after feeling like the industry was a little sad.

477
00:55:29.340 –> 00:55:39.570
Ashley Berman Hale: But I you know I left it in good hands and they’ve continued to do awesome things and I actually got to go back last year to speak for the 10 year anniversary how how rad, is that it’s like my babies in the double digits.

478
00:55:40.230 –> 00:55:45.270
Jamie Alberico: It’s awesome rampage of kindness is the most on brand thing I’ve ever heard.

479
00:55:46.740 –> 00:55:55.110
Ashley Berman Hale: That, that’s good. That’s all right, I got a t shirt rampage of kindness that goes along with them. The relentlessly casual label, I, I also appreciate

480
00:55:55.410 –> 00:56:07.650
Jacob Stoops: There’s an old at iOS or videos at video game believe called rampage. You should just steal that logo and close rampage of kindness and there you go. You got your own t shirt brand.

481
00:56:07.890 –> 00:56:10.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Cool, Jacob. Now I’m not going to get any work done today. I blame you.

482
00:56:10.950 –> 00:56:14.160
Jamie Alberico: Go discounted work branding and work.

483
00:56:18.900 –> 00:56:25.800
Jacob Stoops: Oh man, I’m so deep crawl, I’d be remiss to not talk about deep crawl. What’s it. What’s it like working the depot.

484
00:56:26.220 –> 00:56:37.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Ship date is the best I’m you know I’m optimistic but not naive. So, but I left a couple jobs, one that was a really toxic environment, one that was

485
00:56:38.550 –> 00:56:45.270
Ashley Berman Hale: Great, but just not the best fit. And I was feeling really low on my capabilities to feel like a productive you know employable human being.

486
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:53.580
Ashley Berman Hale: And deep called crowd grabbed me and I will tell you I have had so much joy working here with the people that I work with the software.

487
00:56:54.330 –> 00:57:00.540
Ashley Berman Hale: And just the flexibility to learn so deep crawls uh you know it’s a software. It’s a crawler enterprise level. So it’s like

488
00:57:01.080 –> 00:57:15.330
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a lot like Screaming Frog who are amazing people that make a great product, but it’s sort of on steroids, so you’re able to grab historic data crawl in the cloud trend everything. And there’s just a ton of ways to define the data and filter right within the tool.

489
00:57:15.750 –> 00:57:17.400
Jacob Stoops: It also does it on your computer.

490
00:57:18.570 –> 00:57:25.410
Ashley Berman Hale: It doesn’t shut down your computer because it’s like, you know, your fan won’t even get hot. So that’s, you know, big selling point

491
00:57:26.070 –> 00:57:32.250
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s just a fun tool it’s it’s really interesting. I’ve really enjoyed working here, I would say if anyone hasn’t tried it.

492
00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:39.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Just ping me I would be happy to run across from you and you can poke around obviously not a salesperson because I’m really into giving it away for free but

493
00:57:40.710 –> 00:57:48.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I mean there’s cool data. So if you ever want me to run a sample crawl kick it over. I’m happy to do so you can, yeah, if anyone wants to bug me on Twitter. That’s probably the best place.

494
00:57:49.230 –> 00:57:57.600
Jeff Louella: In the cross seems to have been, you know, I guess the one of the first like SAS platforms to start hiring SEOs, you know, and I see now.

495
00:57:58.050 –> 00:58:01.050
Jeff Louella: You know, now you’re going to be competing against Patrick because he went over to

496
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:12.480
Jeff Louella: H refs. But in general, they’re like, it seems deep crawl like this, the knowledge base has really grown, which is which is great. Like the articles or webinars or something. I look forward to every time they get launched

497
00:58:12.570 –> 00:58:17.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh my gosh, what a smart team, right. So first of all, I could meet Patrick and an arm wrestle so

498
00:58:17.700 –> 00:58:19.320
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m not right, but

499
00:58:20.520 –> 00:58:26.790
Ashley Berman Hale: But I might team is really great. The marketing team does a lot of crazy cool stuff so mean, everyone knows like Sam and Rachel and Jen and

500
00:58:27.240 –> 00:58:34.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Those are people who aren’t traditional SEOs and they’re smarter than most people I know, like they are awesome. My team we’re professional services team.

501
00:58:35.250 –> 00:58:43.440
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s six or seven of us, depending on the day but also hiring. So if you’re a crazy fabulous curious tech SEO and you want to work with me, which

502
00:58:43.950 –> 00:58:54.060
Ashley Berman Hale: Godspeed but ping me there too. So the company’s doing well. They just went through Series B funding and I’m just excited to work with more fantastic people, but they’ve really done something special.

503
00:58:54.510 –> 00:59:04.530
Ashley Berman Hale: In terms of priority to prioritizing data and good things for clients as well as making a really, really fantastic team and hiring obviously humble people right so that’s great.

504
00:59:06.240 –> 00:59:12.600
Jamie Alberico: So you guys always have a sandwich for me and you guys always have the Chargers that I forgot plane somewhere.

505
00:59:13.740 –> 00:59:14.280
Jamie Alberico: On a T.

506
00:59:14.700 –> 00:59:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: Shirt and Casey spell something like you have like the most. I don’t know. Hearing a material company like we will take care of anyone. So again, if you’re ever curious whether it’s job right here on my site for free, like just paying us for a helpful group.

507
00:59:28.830 –> 00:59:29.760
Jamie Alberico: Very good human

508
00:59:30.300 –> 00:59:32.670
Ashley Berman Hale: With sandwiches with sandwiches.

509
00:59:34.200 –> 00:59:39.390
Jacob Stoops: Oh so want to make sure we’re respectful of time I

510
00:59:40.440 –> 00:59:52.740
Jacob Stoops: Don’t think we’re gonna have time for news. I think we’re, we’re probably not going to, because we’ve had such wonderful conversation that is flowing. So naturally I don’t think we’re going to deep dive into technical SEO. I think we’ve talked

511
00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:59.580
Jacob Stoops: Quite enough. I did want to talk about a few more few more things before we wrap up the episode.

512
01:00:00.240 –> 01:00:13.140
Jacob Stoops: But because you guys have been so awesome to talk to. It’s been one of our most free flowing conversation. So I definitely, definitely. Thank you guys for that. It’s been really good, really good conversation.

513
01:00:14.640 –> 01:00:27.540
Jacob Stoops: Um, you guys have mentioned several times and I agree. I’ve noticed it. I, I sometimes choose not to take part, because I have a lot of my own thoughts, but you’ve mentioned the

514
01:00:29.100 –> 01:00:43.830
Jacob Stoops: The level of discourse in the in the industry over probably the last five to five to 10 years and I don’t know. I think I’ve noticed it as well, getting getting better, but it had gotten

515
01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:54.360
Jacob Stoops: A lot of it’s centered around conferences and whatnot, but it had gotten pretty toxic and pretty nasty there for for a little while. So I was wondering if y’all could

516
01:00:55.290 –> 01:01:07.020
Jacob Stoops: Talk a little bit about that and why you think it’s maybe gotten a little bit better. Over the course of the last, I don’t know, I feel like maybe the last year, maybe, maybe I’m overshooting that I don’t know but

517
01:01:07.470 –> 01:01:14.370
Jacob Stoops: I felt it also being really bad and then getting a little bit better. But I don’t know if you guys could talk about that a little bit.

518
01:01:17.670 –> 01:01:27.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I’m awesome well know, Jamie. You go first because I, yeah, I got to the end of something and I pretend like I’ve been drinking a whole time and I will just eat up all the time here.

519
01:01:28.320 –> 01:01:29.640
Jamie Alberico: But I love listening to your story.

520
01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.320
Jamie Alberico: very articulate and

521
01:01:31.410 –> 01:01:47.220
Jamie Alberico: You know you’ve always been a great mentor for me and this kind of scenario. I honestly can say I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only really been met with kindness from people at these conferences and support. I like to think perhaps that

522
01:01:48.240 –> 01:01:54.990
Jamie Alberico: I try and bring up there as well. But there’s no critic of really going to be as harsh as my internal one

523
01:01:55.440 –> 01:02:08.850
Jamie Alberico: So I think keeping her quiet on focused on when I’m there to do maybe take it away from me and giving attention to some of these more interesting moments that I hear about after the fact.

524
01:02:10.290 –> 01:02:14.580
Jamie Alberico: I haven’t been the first chance I can speak to a new the kerfuffle

525
01:02:16.620 –> 01:02:25.890
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, and I mean events bring their own level of potential toxicity, the industry and of itself has been a little tough to. So I’ve been in it for about 15 ish years maybe a little more

526
01:02:26.790 –> 01:02:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, and I did a lot of volunteer work and forums, that’s how I got that’s how I got started in a lot of it and forums can be a really awful, awful place to be, especially if you’re an idiot and just use your regular name Ashley’s everyone knows you’re a girl.

527
01:02:41.370 –> 01:02:42.600
Jamie Alberico: Was true man.

528
01:02:43.230 –> 01:02:45.360
Jamie Alberico: I’m not ever gave me with an androgynous name.

529
01:02:45.480 –> 01:02:51.300
Ashley Berman Hale: I know that so nice. Um, but it is, it’s been bad, but I think in a lot of the ways it’s getting better.

530
01:02:51.810 –> 01:02:57.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I just want to call out that, you know, I come from a place of privilege, even though it can be tough to be in tech as a woman.

531
01:02:58.380 –> 01:03:06.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I am already five steps ahead of some other folks, especially people of color LGBT Q that are out like there’s there’s a stiffness there and

532
01:03:07.470 –> 01:03:14.850
Ashley Berman Hale: I would really like it to be more fluid where people can come in and present and there’s a focus on ideas. I think we are getting there. I think we have warmed the ground so much

533
01:03:15.450 –> 01:03:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: And I think that I can be a bit spicy unintentionally and very clumsy with my calls to try and make things a little bit more better and inclusive.

534
01:03:23.820 –> 01:03:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: But for the most part people have been very generous and forgiving in terms of how I approach that and it spawns some really good conversations so

535
01:03:34.020 –> 01:03:40.140
Ashley Berman Hale: I think we’re getting better and a lot of ways, and I hope to keep saying encouragement in that way. I will see say that

536
01:03:41.100 –> 01:03:48.900
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s one conference in particular that is really great for me in terms of seeing that as the NGA Atlanta conference to Angular Atlanta conference where

537
01:03:49.560 –> 01:03:57.930
Ashley Berman Hale: The founder there works hard to make all majority women or people of color and especially women of color speakers without repeating speakers. It’s pretty fantastic.

538
01:03:59.010 –> 01:04:07.350
Ashley Berman Hale: And it takes a lot of work, like the organizer Zach will be there to tell you, it takes a lot of work to advise any other events, but he’ll tell you that the work is worth it. So,

539
01:04:08.070 –> 01:04:14.910
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re getting better. I’d like to push a little harder in that area. So leave with kindness, but also psychological safety for everyone to

540
01:04:16.620 –> 01:04:27.870
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I agree. And having been so I’ll just, I’ll just come right out with it. I am I dislike conferences and it’s partly because I’m anti social

541
01:04:28.770 –> 01:04:40.290
Jacob Stoops: A little bit. Although I can be social. But I you know I get uncomfortable and nervous in large groups of people. And so that makes a conference for me not very cool.

542
01:04:43.260 –> 01:04:47.100
Jacob Stoops: I’m like, I’m just really bad at small talk, and like literally

543
01:04:47.700 –> 01:05:03.390
Jacob Stoops: It makes me sweat just thinking of having to small talk. Not that I don’t like. I like people just fine. But like in large settings. I always feel super, super awkward, which means just by definition conferences are just not my thing.

544
01:05:04.650 –> 01:05:17.340
Jacob Stoops: But then there’s also, you know, what types of things go on at conferences with respect to harassment and the way people act towards each other and the, the lack of kindness.

545
01:05:18.510 –> 01:05:23.700
Jacob Stoops: I’ve run. And I don’t know if you have you guys ever heard the term conference circuit SEO.

546
01:05:24.840 –> 01:05:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Is that a new thing.

547
01:05:25.680 –> 01:05:32.940
Jamie Alberico: Yes, I turned out on leave, and I understand you correctly or first do the kind of repeating

548
01:05:33.360 –> 01:05:33.600
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

549
01:05:33.960 –> 01:05:37.980
Jamie Alberico: There’s a couple of key speakers, they tend to get things paid for, you’ve got other people

550
01:05:38.640 –> 01:05:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Yes.

551
01:05:39.450 –> 01:05:50.250
Jamie Alberico: Please go to our last represented in our community. And it’s very real that a lot of venues are going to charge money, a lot of money for these tickets and and don’t even pay for the speakers.

552
01:05:51.630 –> 01:05:52.500
Jacob Stoops: Right, right.

553
01:05:52.920 –> 01:05:53.820
Jamie Alberico: Very prohibitive.

554
01:05:54.360 –> 01:05:55.530
Jacob Stoops: There are

555
01:05:56.730 –> 01:06:08.670
Jacob Stoops: In I’m definitely not trying to lump. Anybody, anybody into this but this story for me is very, very specific to some people that I’ve worked with who

556
01:06:09.420 –> 01:06:17.430
Jacob Stoops: Were what I call a quote unquote on the conference circuit which means they went to and spoke at a lot of conferences and were looked up to by

557
01:06:17.850 –> 01:06:28.080
Jacob Stoops: A lot of people as subject matter experts. But then when it came time for them to actually work with me together on certain accounts.

558
01:06:28.800 –> 01:06:38.310
Jacob Stoops: I found that they fell very, very flat in terms of my expectation of their level of quality and what I actually got from them.

559
01:06:39.060 –> 01:06:51.840
Jacob Stoops: So that has left me with a little bit of a bad taste in my, in my mouth with respect to what I’ll call certain conference circuit SEO. So just in general conferences are

560
01:06:52.860 –> 01:07:00.000
Jacob Stoops: Not my favorite thing. But what I have enjoyed seeing recently is the increased focus on

561
01:07:01.260 –> 01:07:11.940
Jacob Stoops: One acting better treating people better and hopefully fewer instances of harassment. I know women, definitely go through

562
01:07:12.600 –> 01:07:21.780
Jacob Stoops: A lot and I feel like I’ve never been like Jamie, just like you said, it’s always for me been second hand. I feel like every man definitely knows

563
01:07:22.110 –> 01:07:27.300
Jacob Stoops: Of a woman who has experienced some sort of sexual harassment. But for me, I’ve never

564
01:07:27.780 –> 01:07:33.780
Jacob Stoops: It’s never been something I’ve witnessed or anything like that. So I’m always only hearing about it secondhand and I’m less than

565
01:07:34.470 –> 01:07:50.220
Jacob Stoops: Less than aware of when that that type of thing might be happening. If I were aware. I would definitely definitely speak up. So I’m I feel like sometimes in a bit of an awkward position of wanting to speak up and being supportive but ever being like Johnny on the spot for when an event.

566
01:07:51.300 –> 01:07:55.350
Jacob Stoops: Happens or transpires so little bit of an awkward awkward.

567
01:07:56.490 –> 01:08:07.890
Jacob Stoops: Position and I would say so obviously that needs to get better. I don’t know how much that is still going on. But I know it was pretty pervasive in the past and super unfortunate.

568
01:08:08.430 –> 01:08:18.240
Jacob Stoops: The other thing that I’m really enjoying is the emphasis on speaker balance. I, I, I have a hard time when I see

569
01:08:19.710 –> 01:08:26.730
Jacob Stoops: An SEO team at a company that is entirely and I’ve experienced this a lot in the past entirely male dominated

570
01:08:27.540 –> 01:08:31.710
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, they’re celebrating hiring the first female CEO and a team in 2019

571
01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:34.080
Jamie Alberico: I mean that’s an incredibly sad.

572
01:08:34.440 –> 01:08:39.810
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s it’s really sad. And I have a hard time with conferences where I look at the

573
01:08:40.200 –> 01:08:49.350
Jacob Stoops: The speaker lineup and I don’t see a picture of somebody with color. I don’t see a picture of somebody who’s female or you see it, but there’s not nearly enough balance so

574
01:08:50.070 –> 01:08:58.680
Jacob Stoops: Not something that I think is, is a good thing. And something that I think is trending in the right direction. I don’t think it’s entirely there.

575
01:08:59.220 –> 01:09:10.920
Jacob Stoops: But I would like to see more more conferences and more companies strive for that balance and not balance for the sake of balance but balance because you really believe

576
01:09:11.760 –> 01:09:19.470
Jacob Stoops: That that those those people and I’m definitely one of the privileged people really bring value in a different perspective.

577
01:09:19.920 –> 01:09:27.480
Jacob Stoops: Not just hiring or booking because you need a certain ratio, right. So that’s something that I’m hoping

578
01:09:28.110 –> 01:09:37.260
Jacob Stoops: Gets a little bit better. But again, as I’ve said before, because I’m kind of an outside observer. I don’t choose to go to a lot of conferences.

579
01:09:37.950 –> 01:09:48.600
Jacob Stoops: I’m more kind of I feel like routing from the sidelines and trying to push where where I can in my areas of influence which are which are a few outside of my own house so

580
01:09:50.340 –> 01:10:06.330
Jamie Alberico: I ok here is because that one for me first one I totally understanding the lack of comfort being around that many people I’ve been asked how I seem to to come on stage and my secret ready guys years of practice with a panic disorder.

581
01:10:06.780 –> 01:10:09.210
Jamie Alberico: Like I have learned how to have a heart attack feel like

582
01:10:09.210 –> 01:10:18.750
Jamie Alberico: Even the Rolodex prices on keep a calm state so repurpose if you if you’ve been through that you think of it as reclaiming and repurposing all those years of practice.

583
01:10:19.770 –> 01:10:25.410
Jamie Alberico: And secondly, there are now more groups out here who are advocating to get their women together a presentation together.

584
01:10:25.710 –> 01:10:33.690
Jamie Alberico: If you are a winless there are used one support women in tech SEO, there is a women in tech SEO Slack channel you can find them on Twitter and on Facebook.

585
01:10:34.020 –> 01:10:44.190
Jamie Alberico: Joining that conversation. I know some really great conferences coming up that have reached out to them to try and help balance out our speakers find people who are representing very skilled

586
01:10:45.330 –> 01:10:48.630
Jamie Alberico: Technologies to be on stage and present from their perspective.

587
01:10:49.800 –> 01:10:53.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah. And if you’re a sweet guy like maybe instead of accepting the panel.

588
01:10:54.420 –> 01:11:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Or accepting the speaking gig. Why don’t you recommend somebody else make it easier on the event organizers because they always say they can’t. But I guarantee there’s someone around you.

589
01:11:03.870 –> 01:11:08.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Who may be a first time or second time speaker, but has really incredible things to say.

590
01:11:08.670 –> 01:11:14.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I think if you speak too much often you’re missing out on that constant learning that you need in order to stay on top of the industry.

591
01:11:15.330 –> 01:11:19.290
Ashley Berman Hale: Or if you’re never speaking, then you’re missing out on an opportunity to find in your craft so

592
01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:29.610
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s great that some people will have reached that pinnacle, and they are trusted and loved and everyone likes to see them speak but it means nothing. If you don’t turn around and homework, you know, two more people up.

593
01:11:29.640 –> 01:11:31.110
Jeff Louella: So I would say share the spotlight.

594
01:11:31.590 –> 01:11:43.800
Ashley Berman Hale: And I don’t have a huge network or you know much influence but if anyone out there who hasn’t spoken before wants to speak. If I could put you in contact with anyone or any conference. Like, I’m happy to help.

595
01:11:44.850 –> 01:11:49.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Said, I don’t have a ton of influence, but I’m willing to use it to just get more voices up there. We should all do that.

596
01:11:51.150 –> 01:11:59.730
Jeff Louella: Yeah, it’s funny. I’ve been working on a little side project where I’ve downloaded the titles of every SEO speech.

597
01:12:00.840 –> 01:12:11.280
Jeff Louella: By the last like two years. And my goal was, I was going to try to make like a SEO speech generator that just put out a topic because that’s one of the things when I

598
01:12:12.120 –> 01:12:25.440
Jeff Louella: Think about doing any type of speaking. I’m like, what am I going to talk about that no one else is talking about. So I was like, hey, and I can want to play with AI and machine learning. I was like, maybe I can make a generator just generates topics. And here’s your next speech.

599
01:12:26.970 –> 01:12:28.020
Jamie Alberico: I would love to see this.

600
01:12:28.230 –> 01:12:42.330
Jeff Louella: Play. Yeah, it was kind of gonna be tongue in cheek, because I just wanted to like I wanted to be bad AI to so it made it funny but so that is in the works. It’s. But one thing I noticed was when I would Dee doop. There were a lot

601
01:12:43.350 –> 01:12:48.930
Jeff Louella: So that was one of the things that were there was a lot of that was like duplicate on air and it made me really think like

602
01:12:50.100 –> 01:12:56.220
Jeff Louella: You know, going and a lot of it might have been like the digital summits, where people travel and do the same presentation all across the country.

603
01:12:56.940 –> 01:13:03.090
Jeff Louella: But there were a lot of like the same things we were talking about and that’s one thing with the tech SEO boost conference.

604
01:13:03.450 –> 01:13:13.530
Jeff Louella: It was like something totally different copy way off guard. Because even last year, maybe a Catalan or one person talked about AI or machine learning and Python and this year was 80% of the people.

605
01:13:14.130 –> 01:13:24.450
Jeff Louella: Which which was was pretty interesting. But in general, I love the, you know, I want to go out and talk a little bit more, but I really love to do it more in the local level and trying to

606
01:13:25.080 –> 01:13:30.840
Jeff Louella: There’s not a huge SEO community here in Atlanta. So something I’d like to start to put together and build out

607
01:13:33.660 –> 01:13:47.100
Jeff Louella: But what I’m just kind of like to end the show just kind of asking a certain question and just kind of advice like if you were someone who was starting off in the SEO world right now. What kind of advice would you give someone who is starting out.

608
01:13:52.440 –> 01:14:03.840
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m yeah I’m used to always jumping in first here so I’m cognizant of that. I’m sorry. I would just say stay curious and stay kind, um, that’s it.

609
01:14:04.770 –> 01:14:06.720
Jeff Louella: That that’s just a range of kindness.

610
01:14:07.500 –> 01:14:08.340
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

611
01:14:08.370 –> 01:14:10.110
Jamie Alberico: Well, I am page the kindness.

612
01:14:10.560 –> 01:14:18.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, a rampage of kindness, please. And I have this, uh, this is kind of gross, but I’ve been a professional coaching and stuff like that, where they say hey,

613
01:14:19.230 –> 01:14:27.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Create a tagline for yourself. And that sounds a little silly, but I have one. And I’ve been using it for over a decade and it’s it’s really done me well and

614
01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:42.000
Ashley Berman Hale: My personal tagline is stupid work. So that means a lot of different things to me. But part of that is just staying curious and you know being nice to people and figuring out where you can help rather than stand on the shoulders of others. So whatever you do, do good work.

615
01:14:42.780 –> 01:14:43.860
Jeff Louella: Awesome. What do you think, Jamie.

616
01:14:46.950 –> 01:14:57.480
Jamie Alberico: I would say that there are no dumb questions engineering a room where you only understand and 20 week of what’s going on. That’s okay. I’ll take notes.

617
01:14:58.350 –> 01:15:06.690
Jamie Alberico: Ask for the handle. What do you mean by this word, particularly in technology. I have some English. I’m looking in bed with dev teams like stocks.

618
01:15:07.500 –> 01:15:18.060
Jamie Alberico: And people use different words, getting the same thing on half of our value of SEO is being able to map up those synonyms and translate between these teams.

619
01:15:18.420 –> 01:15:24.420
Jamie Alberico: Isn’t the end. We all want to make good things. We all have this desire to those good things to be found and

620
01:15:24.840 –> 01:15:39.450
Jamie Alberico: This is how we get there is by being willing to be humble and say, I don’t understand what that means. Could you explain it. Just keep learning. Even when it hurts your head and you crying about the install

621
01:15:41.850 –> 01:15:48.480
Ashley Berman Hale: So many times I’ve like cried, and I’m like, I don’t understand. And then an hour later I’ll be like, holy shit, I figured it out like

622
01:15:48.840 –> 01:15:55.590
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, it’s a crime, and it certainly feels worth it. Like you’re just hitting the wall heading the law hitting a woman suddenly and make sense and it’s beautiful.

623
01:15:56.190 –> 01:15:57.150
Jamie Alberico: Yes, and have a

624
01:15:57.270 –> 01:15:57.810
Good thing.

625
01:15:58.890 –> 01:16:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I think tech SEOs walk that line between the

626
01:16:02.820 –> 01:16:03.960
Jamie Alberico: Federal ambition.

627
01:16:08.970 –> 01:16:14.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, oh yeah, she is sorry last thought. Don’t be afraid to ask them questions. All right. I promise I’m done talking. Yeah.

628
01:16:17.430 –> 01:16:34.710
Jeff Louella: Awesome. Well, we’d love to thank you for coming on the show me, I think, is such great conversation that we had, I feel that you two together. It was it was a great idea. And we’re trying to put you separately, but I think together me. It was just awesome and made the conversation flow better

629
01:16:35.010 –> 01:16:35.970
Jacob Stoops: Dynamic Duo

630
01:16:36.600 –> 01:16:37.320
Exactly.

631
01:16:38.850 –> 01:16:39.270
Jacob Stoops: Alright.

632
01:16:39.750 –> 01:16:40.230
Jeff Louella: So my

633
01:16:40.560 –> 01:16:41.250
Jamie Alberico: Life, mate.

634
01:16:41.670 –> 01:16:45.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, I love you very much. Jamie, it’s good to have a way

635
01:16:45.360 –> 01:16:45.990
Jamie Alberico: Of you to bed.

636
01:16:47.760 –> 01:16:48.750
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye guys

637
01:16:50.400 –> 01:16:50.970
Thank you.

#31: Angela Bergmann

Episode Summary

In this episode, we’re chatting with Angela Bergmann, Senior SEO Strategist at Advance Local and fellow Ohioan! 

We talk about: 

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:02.280 –> 00:00:09.480
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops again here with the Page 2 Podcast. How’s everybody doing?

2
00:00:10.380 –> 00:00:12.960
Angela Bergmann: Right, assuming everybody’s doing great.

3
00:00:13.349 –> 00:00:16.410
Jacob Stoops: We’re also here with Mr. Jeff, Louella

4
00:00:17.910 –> 00:00:18.210
Jeff Louella: Hey,

5
00:00:19.470 –> 00:00:23.790
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I’m gonna need you to be a little bit more boisterous with your intro

6
00:00:25.380 –> 00:00:26.850
Jacob Stoops: Your two weeks out from me.

7
00:00:26.850 –> 00:00:27.330
Jacob Stoops: Forgetting

8
00:00:28.410 –> 00:00:32.640
Jacob Stoops: So like, I’m thinking you’re really coming into your own. So that’s one give me

9
00:00:32.880 –> 00:00:33.180
Jacob Stoops: More

10
00:00:33.240 –> 00:00:33.840
Jacob Stoops: Give me a little more

11
00:00:34.560 –> 00:00:35.730
Jeff Louella: Know, everybody.

12
00:00:35.850 –> 00:00:36.540
Jacob Stoops: Here we go.

13
00:00:36.840 –> 00:00:38.130
Jacob Stoops: And then we are

14
00:00:39.000 –> 00:00:40.200
Angela Bergmann: Here with

15
00:00:40.230 –> 00:00:42.600
Jacob Stoops: Angela Berkman. How are you doing, Angela.

16
00:00:43.860 –> 00:00:47.550
Angela Bergmann: Fantastic. How are you guys doing we’re doing

17
00:00:47.640 –> 00:00:57.900
Jacob Stoops: Awesome. Actually, I’m not doing awesome. I have to confess about 45 minutes ago. And I’m gonna I’m gonna deviate into a quick story. I got an email.

18
00:00:58.230 –> 00:00:59.250
Angela Bergmann: From GoDaddy.

19
00:00:59.280 –> 00:00:59.880
Angela Bergmann: Who I

20
00:01:00.000 –> 00:01:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Use for hosting. I don’t know why I use them and

21
00:01:02.670 –> 00:01:04.410
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure people will yell at me about that.

22
00:01:04.410 –> 00:01:04.620
Angela Bergmann: But

23
00:01:04.650 –> 00:01:13.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s just been who I’ve been using. And I’ve been too lazy to switch that I bought some new Linux hosting and I did not buy

24
00:01:15.060 –> 00:01:15.540
Jacob Stoops: 45

25
00:01:15.570 –> 00:01:16.170
Angela Bergmann: Minutes ago and

26
00:01:17.490 –> 00:01:17.940
Jacob Stoops: 45

27
00:01:17.970 –> 00:01:19.500
Jacob Stoops: Minutes ago so I

28
00:01:20.670 –> 00:01:25.560
Jacob Stoops: Just before we all jumped on had to call it GoDaddy customer service to

29
00:01:26.610 –> 00:01:29.640
Jacob Stoops: One cancel that order because I did not lie.

30
00:01:30.390 –> 00:01:30.660
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

31
00:01:31.080 –> 00:01:35.670
Jacob Stoops: And to figure out, like, who the hell hacked my account and

32
00:01:35.760 –> 00:01:37.350
Jacob Stoops: I came to find out that

33
00:01:37.380 –> 00:01:47.850
Jacob Stoops: One domain. I own. And I’m going to have to take care of it after we after we finished recording is actually now a Russian gambling websites. So it looks like

34
00:01:47.850 –> 00:01:49.350
Angela Bergmann: There’s been some Russian

35
00:01:50.460 –> 00:01:50.820
Jeff Louella: Again,

36
00:01:51.000 –> 00:01:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, the account. The Russian

37
00:01:52.830 –> 00:01:54.960
Angela Bergmann: lessons are trying to get in and impersonate me

38
00:01:55.410 –> 00:01:57.930
Jacob Stoops: And in fact, seem to have called GoDaddy.

39
00:01:58.260 –> 00:02:00.840
Jacob Stoops: With my information and ordered

40
00:02:01.440 –> 00:02:05.640
Jacob Stoops: The hosting for, for whatever reason, so yeah.

41
00:02:06.300 –> 00:02:06.330
Angela Bergmann: I

42
00:02:06.600 –> 00:02:07.740
Jacob Stoops: Had to reset my password.

43
00:02:08.310 –> 00:02:11.070
Jacob Stoops: That up some two factor authentication and

44
00:02:12.210 –> 00:02:13.500
Jacob Stoops: I’m coming into this

45
00:02:14.460 –> 00:02:16.710
Jacob Stoops: A little bit annoyed doesn’t know.

46
00:02:18.810 –> 00:02:21.660
Angela Bergmann: We all want to spend our Friday. Right, exactly.

47
00:02:22.080 –> 00:02:24.300
Jacob Stoops: Exactly dealing with Russian interference.

48
00:02:24.720 –> 00:02:25.140
Pollution

49
00:02:27.300 –> 00:02:28.860
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, so

50
00:02:29.310 –> 00:02:32.190
Jacob Stoops: Angela good authority.

51
00:02:32.220 –> 00:02:33.420
Jacob Stoops: That you are a senior

52
00:02:33.420 –> 00:02:45.240
Jacob Stoops: SEO strategist and advanced local and I’ll have you know that you are the first Ohio and that we’ve brought on and not to say that you’re the you’re the first native Ohio.

53
00:02:45.810 –> 00:02:47.160
Angela Bergmann: Some other folks in

54
00:02:47.160 –> 00:03:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Native to Ohio, but they don’t live there. Now, you’re the first one that actually still lives in Ohio and and in terms of proximity. I’m in Columbus, you’re, you’re the closest interviewee to me in terms of actual proximity so

55
00:03:01.410 –> 00:03:03.300
Angela Bergmann: Congratulations Ohio pride.

56
00:03:03.450 –> 00:03:05.400
Angela Bergmann: Yay so guys

57
00:03:08.010 –> 00:03:08.640
Jacob Stoops: I oh

58
00:03:11.040 –> 00:03:11.730
Angela Bergmann: That’s all I know.

59
00:03:12.090 –> 00:03:13.830
Angela Bergmann: And people and people who do not

60
00:03:13.830 –> 00:03:18.210
Jacob Stoops: Follow. Follow college football are going to have no idea what actually do not follow Ohio State or

61
00:03:18.720 –> 00:03:19.890
Jacob Stoops: No idea what just happened.

62
00:03:19.920 –> 00:03:24.750
Angela Bergmann: You play hang on sloopy and will be good. Exactly, exactly.

63
00:03:24.780 –> 00:03:25.200
So,

64
00:03:26.610 –> 00:03:27.780
Angela Bergmann: You are in

65
00:03:29.340 –> 00:03:30.690
Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember. Did you say you

66
00:03:30.690 –> 00:03:31.950
Jacob Stoops: Work in Akron and live in

67
00:03:31.950 –> 00:03:33.360
Jacob Stoops: Cleveland or live in Cleveland.

68
00:03:33.360 –> 00:03:34.680
Jacob Stoops: And work in Akron.

69
00:03:35.670 –> 00:03:39.870
Angela Bergmann: Upset I live in Akron, and I work in Cleveland. OK, so the

70
00:03:40.260 –> 00:03:42.090
Angela Bergmann: Branded up to

71
00:03:42.120 –> 00:03:42.540
Yeah.

72
00:03:44.640 –> 00:03:52.770
Angela Bergmann: Cool, I am I work in the land and I’m from where LeBron is from actually the same part of accurate. Even so, I have a lot of games pride.

73
00:03:53.490 –> 00:03:54.930
Jeff Louella: Yeah. Brown of SEO.

74
00:03:55.020 –> 00:03:56.760
Jacob Stoops: You go to his, his high school

75
00:03:57.210 –> 00:03:58.080
Jacob Stoops: St. Vincent St.

76
00:03:59.250 –> 00:04:06.180
Angela Bergmann: No, actually I went to the school. He didn’t go to because he went to private school. Okay.

77
00:04:08.730 –> 00:04:09.810
Angela Bergmann: Okay. All right.

78
00:04:11.340 –> 00:04:12.120
Jacob Stoops: So,

79
00:04:13.980 –> 00:04:20.250
Jacob Stoops: I have to ask you before we get into your background on another tangent. Did you watch the Browns game last Thursday.

80
00:04:21.240 –> 00:04:23.730
Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally. What

81
00:04:24.120 –> 00:04:24.900
Angela Bergmann: Happened. I’ve got

82
00:04:24.930 –> 00:04:27.420
Jacob Stoops: Like I feel like I’ve haven’t been able to talk to

83
00:04:27.420 –> 00:04:28.680
Jacob Stoops: anybody except maybe my

84
00:04:29.400 –> 00:04:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Basically just

85
00:04:30.570 –> 00:04:32.130
Jacob Stoops: Knowing about the whole situation.

86
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Like

87
00:04:33.420 –> 00:04:34.440
Jacob Stoops: What the hell happened like

88
00:04:34.440 –> 00:04:37.170
Jacob Stoops: What’s going on here with with our brownies and

89
00:04:37.170 –> 00:04:38.460
Jacob Stoops: Mr. Miles, yo.

90
00:04:39.720 –> 00:04:47.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s the it’s the we hate the Steelers so it’s already going to be a contentious game and then like I’m obviously mad at Garrett

91
00:04:48.780 –> 00:04:57.420
Angela Bergmann: Acting like an idiot. I’m sitting Rudolph from the head, but his helmet. Getting down the line, you know, open Joby shoving in not good.

92
00:04:57.900 –> 00:05:09.840
Angela Bergmann: You know, but like Rudolph not getting any punishment for escalating the fight is what makes me mad. And the other thing that makes me mad, is that I know that they’re escalating punishments for things, but like

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Angela Bergmann: Convicted wife leaders get a 16 suspension yep and Garrett getting an indefinite suspension for hitting a guy on the field during a fight that was escalated with a helmet. Yeah, use a little unfair.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s fun got

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Jacob Stoops: Kareem hunt on our team and we’re not fielding a team.

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Angela Bergmann: Full of choir boys. Yeah, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Eight games for reading a woman and

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Angela Bergmann: It.

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Jacob Stoops: hits a quarterback.

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Jacob Stoops: In his head with a helmet. Now granted, he could have killed him. So there is

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Angela Bergmann: Reacting with

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Angela Bergmann: Coca Cola.

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Jeff Louella: In depth. I saw him kicker.

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Angela Bergmann: Though yeah open Jovi like Patsy kicking him while he’s down and it’s not pounds. He got lucky that he didn’t actually really connect too much, but he was kicking. Yeah. Garrett while he was down in like none of them are choirboys without this is like this.

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Jacob Stoops: This all happened with eight seconds.

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Angela Bergmann: Left and to like put in perspective.

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Jacob Stoops: The long history that

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Angela Bergmann: We have as as as

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Jacob Stoops: browns fans honestly as as Cleveland fan South

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Angela Bergmann: Until the Cavs championship. A few

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Jacob Stoops: Years ago, being a Cleveland fan over the course of the last 30 or 40

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Angela Bergmann: Years 20 years

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Angela Bergmann: It’s been just complete

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Jacob Stoops: Misery and with the browns. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: You’re sick. First off, our team was taken.

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Jacob Stoops: Away then came back.

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Angela Bergmann: Garbage.

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Jacob Stoops: Since it came back. Yeah, they

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Jacob Stoops: Always

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Jacob Stoops: Find a way to disappoint us so like to really put it in perspective, this is the first

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Angela Bergmann: Factory sadness.

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Jacob Stoops: Are two rivals in the same season.

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Jacob Stoops: That being the Steelers and the Ravens.

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Angela Bergmann: And I was, I was on cloud nine. I was like, yes.

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Jacob Stoops: We didn’t just beat the Steelers

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Angela Bergmann: I’m sitting there going like this is great.

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Jacob Stoops: This is great.

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Jacob Stoops: And then with

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Angela Bergmann: Eight seconds left.

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Jacob Stoops: We see this kind of melee and like my heart sinks and I’m like, they couldn’t they couldn’t allow us as fans to get out of this game without disappointing us

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Jacob Stoops: One more, one

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Jacob Stoops: More time as a brown

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. For the other shoe to

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Jacob Stoops: Drop and like we’re gonna win the

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Jacob Stoops: Game and the other shoe isn’t going to drop and then Frank or

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Jacob Stoops: prompt me it was like, Nope. Nope.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s

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Jacob Stoops: just dropped in a big way in an embarrassingly Cleveland way so

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You

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Angela Bergmann: Have factory and stab this yeah it is the factory of

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Jacob Stoops: Sadness. So

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Jacob Stoops: The

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Jacob Stoops: The unimportant stuff.

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Angela Bergmann: Like important

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Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. Tell us about your

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Jacob Stoops: YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE DID.

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Angela Bergmann: You come from, who are

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Jacob Stoops: You

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Jacob Stoops: How did you get into SEO.

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Angela Bergmann: So I got into SEO through Twitter really in like 2007 so taking it all the way back. I decided when we got our first desktop computer, and like 2000 that

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Angela Bergmann: Websites look really cool. I want to learn how to do that. So I taught myself how to build websites I started doing like personal journaling, as it was back then. Like you buy a domain and you create a journal online.

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Angela Bergmann: Got into content management systems as they were coming around. So like gray matter be to movable type

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Angela Bergmann: Got into WordPress got very heavily into using WordPress and like the personal website scene because that was pretty popular with like teenage girls and like early 20s adult girls, creating just personal lifestyle type sites, what we essentially consider it now.

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Angela Bergmann: And I got super into social media because that was a big part of that scene.

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Angela Bergmann: I was, I was working retail like cashier and I was super into social media playing video games doing websites and

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Angela Bergmann: Guy that I followed on Twitter that we had a lot of music in common with like, hey, I see you’re really good at building like WordPress sites. You’re really good at social media. We need an intern at our marketing agency. Would you be interested. And I was like, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I interviewed started internship got hired in and they taught me SEO, and PPC and kind of like where to start learning more about it and how to like pick up on it.

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Angela Bergmann: And I just got super into it from there and just kind of took off and I i went back and forth for a while, between like web development and then digital marketing, but

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Angela Bergmann: I always really liked SEO and SEO is where I really love to be and that’s finally where I get to be kind of little time after spending time doing a little bit of everything.

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Jacob Stoops: So what brought you to advance local

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Angela Bergmann: So I wanted the the advanced local because I love doing agency work.

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Angela Bergmann: I know that’s not typical for a lot of SEO is a lot of SEOs that I run into like to be like the in house person doing the super deep dive.

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Angela Bergmann: Looking through logs that kind of stuff. Whereas I really like the fast paced nature of agency work and day to day. I don’t know what vertical I’ll be looking at

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Angela Bergmann: So you know I have clients that run the gamut from, you know, roofers to nonprofit foundations. So it really is everybody. And I love that.

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Jacob Stoops: So one question I have to ask them is, so you said you love agency work, you’re, you’re, I think, a rare, rare breed.

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Angela Bergmann: I also

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Jacob Stoops: Feel like I’m a better fit in agency, a I call an agency world because it’s just this crazy

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Jacob Stoops: Difficult monster of a

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Angela Bergmann: Stress

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Jacob Stoops: stress ball that I seem to thrive.

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Angela Bergmann: In, and I think that there are

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Angela Bergmann: Very few.

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Jacob Stoops: Lot of people working in what I call agency agency world.

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Jacob Stoops: Not everybody’s a good fit for it. Some people are a better fit for

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Angela Bergmann: In house so like

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Jacob Stoops: Aside from just it being fast paced. What I guess intrinsic qualities do you feel like you have that sort of lend you to that versus being on the House side.

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Angela Bergmann: So, and this is one of the things that I really look for when I’m when I’m hiring people for our team is I look for agency SEO, you have to have a desire to know something about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: Not even necessarily super in depth because when you’re on the agency side you’re for a long time, you’re usually a little bit more high level. I feel like

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Angela Bergmann: But you need to have a willingness to be knowledgeable about everything and have that desire to learn about things that have nothing to do with your personal life.

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Angela Bergmann: I know way more about Windows and any girl could ever want to know, but it’s because of my, my client is. And it’s not because I necessarily interested in it, but I consume knowledge.

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Jeff Louella: I know more about

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I think you take

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Angela Bergmann: Like, Oh man, I just, I really needed to know which window would be perfect, which vinyl window would be perfect for my, you know, turn of the century home yeah

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That’s right.

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Angela Bergmann: But you combine that with I think people that work really well on agency.

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Angela Bergmann: Are those people that like to procrastinate because we work better under pressure and agency is constant pressures. So we constantly have that stimulation that we feel like we need to produce our best work.

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Jacob Stoops: There.

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Angela Bergmann: There is

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Jacob Stoops: I do find that there’s more pressure working

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Angela Bergmann: In the agency environment.

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Jacob Stoops: And there’s more. There’s definitely more variability, you’re not working on the same thing every day, you’re not working in the same industry.

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Angela Bergmann: Every day, and

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Jacob Stoops: For me, that’s nice. I could see where for other people. That would be pretty obnoxious and there have been times in my career where I when I have gone to the in house side where that’s what I thought I wanted

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Jacob Stoops: In there are times where, like, I was pretty fulfilled doing that coming to work and working on the, the same thing every day. But something about the the

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Jacob Stoops: competitive nature. I feel like this is not to say that in house SEOs are not great, because there are many, many great in house SEOs but I feel like the amount of pressure to drive impact leads me to be better at my job. And I think that you get more creativity.

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Jacob Stoops: Out of that because people are constantly trying to think ahead trying to work ahead, trying to make sure in that short time time span that you have, which is usually

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Jacob Stoops: Three, six, or 12 months, your contract in which the you’re getting evaluated and people are deciding whether or not to pay you based on your performance. And a lot of times because implementation is really hard. You’re not getting your recommendations implemented until well

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Angela Bergmann: Into that contract. Yeah.

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I’m

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Jacob Stoops: Aggressive and that

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Jacob Stoops: Means you have to be. We have to be on the cutting

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Angela Bergmann: Edge and that’s

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Jacob Stoops: That’s where I like to. I like to live. I like to live dangerously

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, yeah, you get some you get some try. I feel like I guess a trial. A lot of fun thing because I have like that handful of clients that wants to be cutting edge. So they’re willing to pay to try the thing

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Jacob Stoops: What is the

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Jacob Stoops: area of expertise that you have, because you’ve worked on a particular client that is the furthest

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Angela Bergmann: Thing from your

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Jacob Stoops: Personality, or maybe the oddest thing for you. Besides windows.

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Angela Bergmann: So,

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Angela Bergmann: Probably um that’s so tough because I

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Angela Bergmann: I’m such a crazy knowledge person. I feel like everything is relevant to me because I want to know things about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: I probably autos, I’m not super into cars. I’m just not. But I’ve come up with some very creative ways to address SEO for automotive clients.

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Angela Bergmann: Because they have those inherent difficulties that come with like the content management and like inventory management system they’re locked into their page speed is always going to be terrible.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s a given they’re going to have technical things that we’re never going to be able to touch and there’s no point even reporting on it because they’re just, there’s no hope there.

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Angela Bergmann: So I have kind of work to figure out, like, what can we do that will make an effect and actually show some organic growth for them. Um,

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Angela Bergmann: Without

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Angela Bergmann: Having to get into the things that we would typically want to touch.

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Angela Bergmann: Jeff, you work on a

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Jacob Stoops: Pretty well known who will not be named here.

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Jacob Stoops: Automotive client.

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What are your thoughts about that.

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Jeff Louella: Well,

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Jeff Louella: That’s automotive parts, so it is what e commerce, but

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Some of those parts are so

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Jeff Louella: Specific

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Jeff Louella: And

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Jeff Louella: It is

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Jeff Louella: There’s a ton of competition out there. Right, so it’s it’s

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Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I’m, I’m always battling

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Angela Bergmann: That aspect of just like

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Jeff Louella: We have an oxygen sensor. It’s like

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Jeff Louella: I get every site has it out there. How do we

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Jeff Louella: Kind of get it out, but they are very

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Angela Bergmann: You know,

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Angela Bergmann: A lot of it is, but I’m

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Jeff Louella: Fighting is like kind of having

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Jeff Louella: Content like trying to build it up to where like your average consumers, looking at it. But the way that the automotive parts world works. It’s like by part numbers, most of the time. Right, so you

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Jeff Louella: Get number

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Jeff Louella: And it’s like,

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Jeff Louella: You’re optimizing for part number and more than someone’s looking for specific

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Jeff Louella: You know, general terms like brake pads or grades for me. He’s not a car person looking. But for someone who’s actually like at an auto shop. They need part, you know, ML or 973 and that comes up first.

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Jeff Louella: Yep. So it’s an interesting

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Jeff Louella: Mix there because every like more people search for Breitbart, then that bottle number, but that model number converts it like 90% while the other one converts at point 1% so it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. So how are we going to write content to target the actual conversion. Exactly.

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Angela Bergmann: So how do we beat out the other people who use the same exact model number is part of my issues. Yeah, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, I’ve done that, I, I’ve also worked with a lot of like

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Angela Bergmann: Manufacturers where their target audience is knows that they need the part that this place makes but they have no idea what it’s called. They just know that they need it.

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Angela Bergmann: Those are always fun.

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Angela Bergmann: Hoping engineers find engineer good time.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I have a like one

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Jeff Louella: Thing that I know way too much about besides wedding dresses that I’ve never do that. I would

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: Working in the agency world and it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: feeding tubes is one that I like.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah. This is especially them into

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Jeff Louella: Now, which is something that I like. I hope no one ever has to learn about but you know now that like there is a major

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Jeff Louella: concern out there when you do need it. So it’s like, how do we know

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Jeff Louella: It’s just weird marketing, things like that, because it’s just like something you expect your doctor. Just to give to you, but

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Jeff Louella: Our brands out there just like you see commercials on prescription TVs, like you get my arthritis medication or get my, you know, I had this where skin disease and you know there’s

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Jeff Louella: Only three drugs out there, but we need to be number one over those

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Jeff Louella: Three and and that’s kind of where I am with in the evening to world right now. It’s kind of interesting.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, no. And it’s true like medicals one of those verticals. That’s like personal and professional interest for me so I know way more about medical stuff than any one person probably others.

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Angela Bergmann: But yeah, there’s so many intricacies to it like is your target audience patients, is it caregivers, is it Doctor Is it manufacturers, distributors like

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Angela Bergmann: People don’t think about that side as well. Yeah, yeah. All of the above. So which different types of which different things, are we going to do to address each different audience. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: All one site that’s already

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Angela Bergmann: It’s like you’re

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Jeff Louella: You’re trying to get to the consumer, but doctors also and

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Angela Bergmann: Mostly the people at hospitals that are ordering

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Jeff Louella: You know, it’s like, those are the people who are actually buying because

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Jeff Louella: As a consumer, you’re not

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Angela Bergmann: Necessarily buying insurance for the most part.

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Jeff Louella: So it’s kind of getting them. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Exactly and

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Jeff Louella: And computers at hospitals to you.

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Jacob Stoops: Yep. So I don’t know if you guys know this but Columbus, Ohio is a hub for fashion retailers.

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Angela Bergmann: That you didn’t know

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Angela Bergmann: That going in. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria Secret

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Jacob Stoops: The Lunatic.

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Angela Bergmann: Lane Bryant.

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Angela Bergmann: Abercrombie and Fitch all

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Jacob Stoops: Based in Columbus, Ohio, which is crazy. And the reason I say that is because that is my weird really weird one.

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Jacob Stoops: So this

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Angela Bergmann: Is not recent like

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Angela Bergmann: I don’t know anything about fashion. I

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Jacob Stoops: Really don’t

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Jacob Stoops: I can barely get up.

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Jacob Stoops: Pick up my

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Angela Bergmann: Pick out my clothes.

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Jacob Stoops: In the morning, and usually like

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It’s just t shirt energy

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Jacob Stoops: So,

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Jacob Stoops: I’ve worked on a fashion retailer, not one of those that I named a couple of years ago in more than a couple. It was it was before I had a family. So my my oldest son is six years old.

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Jacob Stoops: So this predates predates him so it was before. I should have known anything about children’s clothing and

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Jacob Stoops: I was, I was working on a fashion site for young girls.

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Jacob Stoops: Which

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Like

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Angela Bergmann: Was so

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Jacob Stoops: Like for me as like

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Jacob Stoops: A young

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Jacob Stoops: Not even married at the time person without

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Jacob Stoops: Kids felt so

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Jacob Stoops: weird and creepy and I like

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Jacob Stoops: As I was working on. I was proud to be working on the brand but also I was like, I’m not going to show anybody my search history because if they saw it without

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Contact

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Angela Bergmann: Giant creep so

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Angela Bergmann: That’s my, that’s my weird one and

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Jacob Stoops: It was just, it wasn’t like anything.

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Angela Bergmann: Weird like

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria’s Secret lingerie or anything like that, or anything. It was just normal clothing.

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Jacob Stoops: Except, yes, girls.

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Angela Bergmann: And

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Jacob Stoops: With if somebody had looked at my computer without

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Angela Bergmann: Content.

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Angela Bergmann: And I was visiting that website.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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I think I would have had some questions.

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Angela Bergmann: People that like any if an SEO ever get arrested. Please don’t look at our search history really thinking about who we are as a person.

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Jacob Stoops: I wasn’t on purpose just looking at that site.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Angela Bergmann: For yeah

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You’re

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Jacob Stoops: So you did mention something when you were kind of talking about how you were

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Jacob Stoops: Coming up in the in the space Twitter. Twitter’s a big thing Twitter still a big thing for for the. So I would say Twitter is probably the best place to connect with other SEOs

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Jacob Stoops: More so than other

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Jacob Stoops: Newer mediums like Instagram or even Tick tock, or whatever. I think Twitter, even I think it’s like Facebook where it’s becoming maybe a little for the, the older generation when used to be the hip.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s, it’s definitely

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Angela Bergmann: Tick tock, but for right

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Jacob Stoops: Now it’s still the best place.

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Angela Bergmann: To

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Jacob Stoops: Communicate with other other SEOs so I do

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Jacob Stoops: find it interesting that you were able to connect and get a job through Twitter.

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Angela Bergmann: That’s pretty

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Angela Bergmann: Awesome. Yep.

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Jacob Stoops: You taught yourself WordPress. What was that like

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Angela Bergmann: No, it really just kind of weird because

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Angela Bergmann: It started with grey matter which was like a CGI based content management system and it just was so much easier than having to FTP into the site every day to like post something and then keeping that running log and and trying to keep all of these separate HTML pages organized

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Angela Bergmann: So it just really kind of morphed into, like, how can I do this easier and then just

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Angela Bergmann: It’s that I think that consumption for knowledge again come into play because it’s like, well, how do I figure this out. Why isn’t this working, what do I have to do to make this work. How do I make it look pretty.

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Angela Bergmann: And it just kind of went from there.

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Angela Bergmann: And because of that, like I got super involved in like the WordPress local WordPress community. I went to WordPress Meetup.

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Angela Bergmann: I hosted a word camp.

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Angela Bergmann: It really like between WordPress and like the digital marketing and social media is really just how I kind of built my career teaching myself these things and getting to be really good at a and

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Angela Bergmann: Being fairly good at sharing that

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Angela Bergmann: Experience and like knowledge with other people to try to explain things to them at a level that they could get it.

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Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s how I’ve gotten some of the jobs that I’ve gotten this because I’ve been able to answer questions and explain it in a way that people can understand

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Angela Bergmann: You had spoken.

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Jacob Stoops: At a lot of word camps all across the Midwest.

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Jacob Stoops: Honestly, like we

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Jacob Stoops: We do our diligence before so

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Angela Bergmann: And you’ve spoken several times at

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Jacob Stoops: Each of these are

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Angela Bergmann: Columbus.

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Jacob Stoops: In Canton end date Ann Arbor.

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Jacob Stoops: Michigan. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Baby to

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Jacob Stoops: Buffalo potato.

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Angela Bergmann: I guess I were an OSU had we were always, you have to always take pictures on were on U of M campus like in enemy territory.

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Angela Bergmann: Very important to do

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Jacob Stoops: Um, what

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Angela Bergmann: I think that one.

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Jacob Stoops: Of the questions I would also ask outside of the

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Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of questions that come up when you start talking teaching yourself natural

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Curiosity.

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Jacob Stoops: And now this is kind of getting into the public speaking realm but like I feel like these are all very important characteristics and we’d like to

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Jacob Stoops: Like to end the episodes, or at least we try sometimes we forget giving advice on like hey if you’re getting into the industry today like

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Jacob Stoops: What characteristics, should you look to follow or try to emulate in in other really great SEOs, and I think that like us. You have have shown and

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Jacob Stoops: I’m saying this because I came up in the same way I was a graphic designer who had no other choice but to teach myself web design, who then fell into SEO WordPress was a huge part of of my experience in in web design, but like

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Jacob Stoops: I think having that natural curiosity and I do see some people that

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Angela Bergmann: Come into the industry and

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Angela Bergmann: Like there’s

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Jacob Stoops: Not always the hunger there to want to dive into some of these complex problems and there’s not always the

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Jacob Stoops: The real desire to teach yourself one of the skills.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: How important do you feel

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Jacob Stoops: Like that part of it is when you’re kind of coming up.

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Angela Bergmann: I think it’s critical. I think that desire to learn everything and teach yourself everything you possibly can, is

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Angela Bergmann: The foundation of being a really good SEO because things are going to change. Google can make a change, tomorrow that rocks all of our world and we have to learn it right now. So if you’re not able to like pivot quickly and learn things kind of on the fly, you’re already at a doctrine.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: No matter what I asked anyone who I’ve ever talked to you, like, what did you go to school for it.

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Jeff Louella: It’s never SEO right

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Angela Bergmann: So it’s

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Jeff Louella: So I’ve worked with people who were

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Jeff Louella: Wanted to be a gym teacher, all the way to people like

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Jeff Louella: Journalism is a big one.

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Jeff Louella: And then

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Angela Bergmann: The big one.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah, and journalism is

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Jeff Louella: Is great. I mean, the technical side is where they need to have the curiosity, but

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Jeff Louella: I’m probably the opposite where it’s like on the content side, I probably need

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Jeff Louella: A little more curiosity on wordplay and things like that because

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Jeff Louella: I’m coming from a technical background but yeah it’s it’s

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Jeff Louella: Having the curiosity in general.

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Jeff Louella: And learning how to, you know, I always tell someone who’s new like build a WordPress site.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s just one because it’s, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: There’s so much information out.

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00:28:40.230 –> 00:28:45.210
Jeff Louella: There that you can’t, like, if I say build a craft CMS site right now or

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00:28:45.240 –> 00:28:47.640
Jeff Louella: Go do with expression engine or go do

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Angela Bergmann: So high

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00:28:49.260 –> 00:28:52.650
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we will type or, you know, I

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Jeff Louella: It’s one of those where it’s like there might not be as much out there WordPress, there’s this

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Angela Bergmann: Gigantic community. Yeah, that’s

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00:28:59.130 –> 00:28:59.550
Angela Bergmann: And don’t

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00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:04.320
Jeff Louella: Just go to WordPress com and pay you know or get a free site there like go

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Angela Bergmann: Now, Donald word download it and

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00:29:13.080 –> 00:29:13.710
Angela Bergmann: All which is

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Jeff Louella: Which is fine for me now because I installed it but

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like I use the One Button installed, but that’s because I installed thousands of patients on it.

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Angela Bergmann: So easy.

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Angela Bergmann: But at the same time, it’s like knowing like

415
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Jeff Louella: Okay, I got my config file up to what does the config file, it’s like okay, now it’s just like

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I

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Jeff Louella: Get to my sequel database.

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Jeff Louella: What is that my sequel database.

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Jeff Louella: You know, and it’s just

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Angela Bergmann: That’s the kind of stuff, too, that when you when you’re learning it like so. I work for very large corporation.

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Angela Bergmann: I wanted access administrative level access on my laptop and they’re like why. And I was like, cuz I want to update my host file. And they were like, oh,

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Angela Bergmann: You know what, I’m like, yeah, I know what that is. I need to update it and like just having that knowledge has helped me be able to get access to the things that I need, because I know what it

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s great. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: So I have a little confession that I’ve

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Jeff Louella: Signed up for

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Angela Bergmann: Probably the last five years to go to WordPress.

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Jeff Louella: Or work camp.

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Jeff Louella: Paid and I never went

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Jeff Louella: I totally support it. I love the idea of it.

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Jeff Louella: I moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta. About three years ago, but at least

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00:30:32.250 –> 00:30:34.230
Jeff Louella: Three years in Philadelphia. I paid and it’s

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Jeff Louella: Always sits on a weekend.

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Angela Bergmann: Which yeah

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Jeff Louella: Usually is good because

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00:30:39.240 –> 00:30:41.070
Jeff Louella: I can go on a weekend. Like, it seems great

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Jeff Louella: But that’s usually family time and that’s where it goes. Like if you give me the Tuesday I feel like I’m working late today or it’s a substitute work for the conference.

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Angela Bergmann: But I think I paid for it every year and I

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Jeff Louella: Send in our Atlanta office now that I’m company on that every year. I said word camps coming sign up here and I always pay by my ticket because I support it. And then I usually never get

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00:31:02.970 –> 00:31:04.290
Jeff Louella: Go, so I am

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00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:05.610
Jeff Louella: Oh, you have

441
00:31:05.610 –> 00:31:06.090
Angela Bergmann: To go

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00:31:06.120 –> 00:31:06.630
Angela Bergmann: I need

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Jeff Louella: I will go

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Angela Bergmann: I tell people all the time. I’m like, honestly, especially from the tech like SEO side like we’re cancer amazing i I’ve met some of the best people I know through that.

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Angela Bergmann: Actually when I was interviewing for this job. I was interviewing with john parka who’s the director of SEO still he’s on actually on our, on our enterprise side now.

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Angela Bergmann: But he helped start one of the word camps in Florida.

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Angela Bergmann: And he saw on my resume that I was on the committee for word camp North Canton, and then I was the chair for word camp Kent and word camp Northeast Ohio and then I spoke at all these word camp.

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Angela Bergmann: So that was like part of my interview process was talking about what I do work camp.

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Angela Bergmann: But like, I’ve met some of my best friends at this point through the word WordPress community. And that’s why, like I go to their camps and I talked and

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Angela Bergmann: I just made some wonderful connections. That’s great. I just looked it out, April 18 and 19th word camp Atlanta. I will be there. Mm hmm. And I know one of their organizers.

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Angela Bergmann: Yes, they’re always looking for speakers, they always especially on. I mean, just saying. Like I always talk nowadays about SEO or accessibility at them and

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Angela Bergmann: They’re highly attended people have wonderful question. They’re super engaged. I love it. That’s awesome.

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Jacob Stoops: Just how dare you prioritize your family.

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Angela Bergmann: Over WordPress and

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Jeff Louella: Ryan times I’ve just hung over from Friday.

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00:32:42.060 –> 00:32:42.600
Jeff Louella: Night now.

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Jacob Stoops: Angela, what do you do it word camp.

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Angela Bergmann: So what do I do a word chill. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: You said that you said that just two seconds ago.

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Jacob Stoops: And I was like I was just gonna say, Well, what do you do

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Angela Bergmann: So now I said so now i don’t i just attend. Now, or I speak of them. Previously I was actually on the committee that actually helped around them, because they are nonprofit.

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Angela Bergmann: That’s how the tickets are so cheap everybody donate their time to help run the camp.

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Angela Bergmann: And you know, I started out just doing social media for it. So I was the one posting on social media, creating the website. And then I was the one. And I think the whole thing and getting sponsors and running it day of

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Angela Bergmann: Compared to some conferences word camps are super laid back jeans and a t shirt hang out with your friends.

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Angela Bergmann: If you’re in one of the sessions and it’s not really vibe in with you. You’re welcome to like get up and leave like it. It’s just a really like friendly open atmosphere. So it’s not it’s not too high pressure

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Angela Bergmann: But now. Uh, yeah, I just speak at the Now typically about SEO typically beginners level SEO so small businesses people that are just getting into marketing.

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00:34:10.080 –> 00:34:23.820
Angela Bergmann: New College graduate, that kind of stuff. Just like you don’t don’t listen to the snake oil salesman that are going to be like, we’ll get you on number one. Don’t buy a link. Here’s the basic things you can do.

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Angela Bergmann: In the run up to getting an agency to help you. You just install used

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00:34:32.370 –> 00:34:42.510
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like that’s one of the things that I actually go over as I’m like yeah install Yost ignore the green light. Um, you know, just write good content answer people’s questions.

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Angela Bergmann: I think that’s really what you need to do the plugins, not just going to

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Jacob Stoops: Magically, do the SEO.

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Angela Bergmann: Despite what some people think, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: That’s exactly, exactly.

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Angela Bergmann: autopilot which is a and worms.

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Angela Bergmann: The public speaking angle.

476
00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:06.930
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of folks in our industry are either a doing it.

477
00:35:07.080 –> 00:35:07.800
Jacob Stoops: Or be

478
00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:20.250
Jacob Stoops: Thinking about doing it. What advice for those people who are thinking about doing it because you have done it so much. Would you give and kind of what types of things did you go through

479
00:35:22.230 –> 00:35:25.110
Jacob Stoops: before you got into it, or as you were early on in it.

480
00:35:27.360 –> 00:35:41.670
Angela Bergmann: So the number one thing I learned I actually learned from my husband. Um, he got finally got it through my head that just because something seems really easy for me doesn’t mean everybody else knows how to do it.

481
00:35:43.470 –> 00:35:54.360
Angela Bergmann: Because I’ve been doing this for so long. I don’t realize the level of things that I know and what seems really like basic common knowledge to me isn’t so common.

482
00:35:56.280 –> 00:36:08.250
Angela Bergmann: So even if it seems like something simple, there’s somebody out there that needs to know about it and wants to learn about it. And if it’s something you feel really confident about and you know a lot about pitch to talk about it.

483
00:36:10.200 –> 00:36:11.490
Angela Bergmann: Especially if you’re a woman.

484
00:36:14.340 –> 00:36:17.490
Jeff Louella: As an issue where it’s I feel that there’s so many

485
00:36:17.640 –> 00:36:18.750
Angela Bergmann: SEO conferences.

486
00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:21.060
Jeff Louella: Is somebody SEO blogs from the

487
00:36:21.060 –> 00:36:31.740
Jeff Louella: Sky News things that it’s I do have that issue where it’s like, oh, I talked about this, but like there’s a million people talking about it right now. And it’s like, what is is looking at what that

488
00:36:31.740 –> 00:36:33.000
Jeff Louella: Next Big Thing is out there.

489
00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:34.260
Jeff Louella: But in a way,

490
00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:36.690
Jeff Louella: The basics are still not like

491
00:36:36.990 –> 00:36:39.600
Jeff Louella: I’ve learned this my clients like some my basic like

492
00:36:40.080 –> 00:36:42.540
Jeff Louella: The basics are not being followed and

493
00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:44.940
Jeff Louella: You know, and internal education with

494
00:36:45.240 –> 00:36:46.770
Jeff Louella: My, my clients is where I

495
00:36:47.130 –> 00:36:48.270
Angela Bergmann: Love the focus on that.

496
00:36:49.140 –> 00:36:57.270
Jeff Louella: Though I sometimes feel like I’ve been doing this for a long time. I should be like teaching them all about like how to use machine learning to do better SEO.

497
00:36:57.990 –> 00:37:00.270
Jeff Louella: Not teaching you that like listen that right over.

498
00:37:00.270 –> 00:37:07.950
Jeff Louella: 65 characters on the title or or let’s add a title to our page because you know we forgot to do that, but it’s it’s

499
00:37:08.010 –> 00:37:20.850
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s the people forget like everybody still needs a reminder on the basics and like how the how the why the basics are still relevant. They feel like it’s a big thing. Yeah, anyway.

500
00:37:22.140 –> 00:37:27.510
Jeff Louella: This is a little bit basics and a little bit above right there is like that’s 90% of what we need to know and everything else is

501
00:37:27.510 –> 00:37:28.740
Angela Bergmann: sugar on top of it. So,

502
00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:30.060
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s

503
00:37:30.780 –> 00:37:33.810
Jacob Stoops: It’s a pretty rare situation. I’ve been an agency.

504
00:37:33.810 –> 00:37:50.280
Jacob Stoops: World for 90% of my career and there I can count probably on one hand, the amount of clients where their SEO strategy was so well developed that we only ever focused on really advanced stuff.

505
00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.890
Angela Bergmann: For the most part, when people

506
00:37:53.040 –> 00:37:58.980
Jacob Stoops: Have come to us. They’ve got like very basic, very fundamental problems very

507
00:37:59.340 –> 00:38:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Fundamental technical problems.

508
00:38:01.110 –> 00:38:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Or because they haven’t really ever thought of SEO or

509
00:38:04.650 –> 00:38:06.180
Jacob Stoops: Done keyword research, they don’t

510
00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:22.230
Jacob Stoops: Understand what their consumers are searching for where they should be showing up. So they had a lot of content gaps and we spend a lot of time in because SEO takes a long time because it takes a long time for implementation to occur. A lot of in most cases.

511
00:38:23.310 –> 00:38:25.890
Jacob Stoops: It can take years to get some of the

512
00:38:26.490 –> 00:38:27.210
Angela Bergmann: Stuff right

513
00:38:27.270 –> 00:38:35.310
Jacob Stoops: In finally in place, but the the weird juxtaposition in agency world is you don’t have years. So sometimes you’re

514
00:38:35.400 –> 00:38:37.800
Jacob Stoops: You’re really stuck between a rock and

515
00:38:38.280 –> 00:38:43.260
Jacob Stoops: A hard place. But yeah, I mean, most people come to us with basic, basic

516
00:38:44.520 –> 00:38:46.650
Jacob Stoops: basic needs, and we we

517
00:38:47.670 –> 00:38:57.090
Jacob Stoops: Are having to serve those needs, but then the flip side is on the public speaking in the conference side like I think sometimes I fall into the

518
00:38:58.290 –> 00:39:00.960
Jacob Stoops: The way of thinking like Jeff where it’s like

519
00:39:02.400 –> 00:39:17.850
Jacob Stoops: Everybody like nobody everybody I assume everybody who would be attending an SEO or WordPress conference would already know the basics. So like I i don’t pitch more because I’m like, well, what can I tell these people that they don’t already know.

520
00:39:18.150 –> 00:39:19.410
Jacob Stoops: And sometimes that’s the wrong way to

521
00:39:19.410 –> 00:39:20.460
Angela Bergmann: Think about it for sure.

522
00:39:20.910 –> 00:39:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I totally realized that’s the probably the the wrong.

523
00:39:24.210 –> 00:39:25.530
Angela Bergmann: Approach to take because

524
00:39:25.560 –> 00:39:33.930
Jacob Stoops: For every person in there that does know some of the basic stuff. There’s probably a new person in there that’s never heard any of it before so

525
00:39:34.470 –> 00:39:44.520
Angela Bergmann: Yeah. And you’ll notice that like even the SEO conferences, they’ll have a talk here and there. That’s like basically rehashing the basics and how and why it’s still relevant to today.

526
00:39:45.300 –> 00:39:46.800
Jacob Stoops: Did you ever have any like

527
00:39:46.800 –> 00:39:51.120
Jacob Stoops: Fears of getting up on stage and talking in front of a lot of people

528
00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:16.380
Angela Bergmann: Like I get. I get that nervousness of, like, what if I can’t answer. Somebody question. Um, but I am super outgoing and kinda like in your face. One of those types of people. So like getting up in front of a group was never a fear for me. You’re, you’re one of the lucky ones like

529
00:40:18.360 –> 00:40:18.930
Jacob Stoops: I have

530
00:40:19.350 –> 00:40:20.580
Jacob Stoops: A bit of a public

531
00:40:20.580 –> 00:40:39.330
Jacob Stoops: Speaking fear which I usually quickly get over but like I have a weird thing that happens to me when I, when I talk in public in most predominantly so I’ve, I don’t want to call myself a singer, but I’ve saying in public. Several times for like benefits and whatnot and

532
00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:41.670
Jacob Stoops: I have this thing, right.

533
00:40:41.670 –> 00:40:45.510
Jacob Stoops: Before I’m about to go on stage and

534
00:40:46.260 –> 00:40:47.250
Angela Bergmann: A couple of times.

535
00:40:47.280 –> 00:40:49.800
Jacob Stoops: Literally seconds before the words are supposed to come out of my

536
00:40:49.800 –> 00:40:50.970
Angela Bergmann: Mouth where

537
00:40:51.030 –> 00:40:52.290
Angela Bergmann: everything just goes blank.

538
00:40:52.380 –> 00:40:55.500
Jacob Stoops: And I forget all the words and literally

539
00:40:55.800 –> 00:40:57.180
Angela Bergmann: The words to me.

540
00:40:57.240 –> 00:40:59.070
Jacob Stoops: Until the second my mouth opens

541
00:40:59.250 –> 00:41:05.910
Jacob Stoops: And like you have no idea the amount of anxiety and stress and fear that that causes could

542
00:41:06.240 –> 00:41:08.190
Jacob Stoops: Could you imagine like being

543
00:41:08.220 –> 00:41:09.090
Angela Bergmann: Like the

544
00:41:09.150 –> 00:41:10.890
Jacob Stoops: Music is not stopping

545
00:41:12.180 –> 00:41:12.630
Jacob Stoops: You’re

546
00:41:12.660 –> 00:41:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Missing your cue because you forgot the what that’s like. That’s a real thing and like there have been times I feel like where I’ve been.

547
00:41:19.830 –> 00:41:21.000
Angela Bergmann: Getting in front of people.

548
00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:24.810
Jacob Stoops: That happens to me and and the light bulb just goes out.

549
00:41:25.170 –> 00:41:25.680
And

550
00:41:26.790 –> 00:41:30.690
Jacob Stoops: There’s a, there’s a certain amount of silence, where, like, it’s okay. But then like

551
00:41:30.900 –> 00:41:31.980
Angela Bergmann: As you’re trying to get

552
00:41:32.880 –> 00:41:34.920
Jacob Stoops: Your head and nobody knows that this is happening.

553
00:41:34.920 –> 00:41:36.300
Jacob Stoops: There’s a certain amount of silence.

554
00:41:36.300 –> 00:41:37.500
Angela Bergmann: That just awkward.

555
00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:50.190
Jacob Stoops: And like the lock on the more awkward. It gets and you’re inside like instead of thinking, what was I supposed to be singing. What was I supposed to be saying you’re thinking now, all these people are seeing me freak out.

556
00:41:50.820 –> 00:41:51.750
Say something.

557
00:41:54.690 –> 00:41:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Doing what it should be doing so.

558
00:41:56.100 –> 00:42:00.690
Jacob Stoops: Like, that’s my personal public public speaking fear.

559
00:42:01.110 –> 00:42:01.620
Angela Bergmann: Oh,

560
00:42:01.860 –> 00:42:02.790
Jacob Stoops: That’s a very real.

561
00:42:02.880 –> 00:42:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Thing I know other people have that

562
00:42:06.780 –> 00:42:19.290
Angela Bergmann: Here’s, here’s how I have that not happen and this always boggles people’s mind so you can go to like wordpress.tv and you can see like some of the recorded where Tim says Boca um

563
00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:36.480
Angela Bergmann: I knew a lot of people like put together presentations and they have like cards and they like no exact. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I get up there. Wow. I just have a deck. That’s like cuse me to talk about things and I just go

564
00:42:38.190 –> 00:42:38.820
Angela Bergmann: Oh, man.

565
00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:40.350
Jacob Stoops: You’re like a Jasmine.

566
00:42:43.590 –> 00:42:44.250
Every time

567
00:42:45.690 –> 00:42:51.390
Angela Bergmann: Because like I like to read the especially when I’m at work camps, because there. I know that a lot of these people are very new.

568
00:42:51.870 –> 00:43:05.070
Angela Bergmann: I can kind of read the room and see what kind of questions. I’m getting asked throughout the presentation and it might shift, what I’m going to say to it’s always slightly different but I always kind of end up with the same takeaways.

569
00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:10.320
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, I just get up there and talk. Remember, smooth again gigantic

570
00:43:10.470 –> 00:43:11.880
Jeff Louella: You know 500 person.

571
00:43:12.300 –> 00:43:12.720
Angela Bergmann: But

572
00:43:13.500 –> 00:43:18.630
Jeff Louella: I’ve done tons of smaller meetups like 3040 people in there.

573
00:43:18.630 –> 00:43:19.170
And

574
00:43:20.220 –> 00:43:25.830
Jeff Louella: Get I definitely like to feel out the room. I know kind of where I’m going with everything. But one question.

575
00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:27.000
Angela Bergmann: If I had a script.

576
00:43:27.060 –> 00:43:29.250
Jeff Louella: That I was going off of the one question through that script.

577
00:43:29.250 –> 00:43:32.820
Jeff Louella: Off, then I’d be like trying to rewind like Where was I add

578
00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.610
Angela Bergmann: I would think.

579
00:43:35.850 –> 00:43:37.140
Jeff Louella: I have been told, you know,

580
00:43:37.170 –> 00:43:40.770
Jeff Louella: We used to have like presentation training at different companies and

581
00:43:41.400 –> 00:43:43.200
Jeff Louella: Like they’re like stand in front of a mirror and

582
00:43:43.200 –> 00:43:44.730
Jeff Louella: Practice what you’re going to say.

583
00:43:45.210 –> 00:43:47.610
Jeff Louella: And I get it, if I’m doing a

584
00:43:47.610 –> 00:43:49.110
Angela Bergmann: keynote speech media or

585
00:43:49.110 –> 00:43:50.100
Jeff Louella: If I’m doing like

586
00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:52.680
Jeff Louella: Something. Yeah, I’d like to be very

587
00:43:54.090 –> 00:43:59.010
Jeff Louella: You know, given take with the audience, right. So it’s, again, I have my slides. We know we got an hour.

588
00:44:00.510 –> 00:44:03.600
Jeff Louella: There’s been many times where I’m on slide 16 we have 10 minutes left.

589
00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:04.560
Angela Bergmann: Right, and so it’s like

590
00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:06.870
Jeff Louella: Well, these things work. But if the audience gets what they want.

591
00:44:06.870 –> 00:44:17.850
Jeff Louella: Out of it like I I’m not there to make like my final slides, not like a mic drop. It’s like at that time. It’s like my my job would be like if you want more information you can talk. Let’s talk right here.

592
00:44:18.180 –> 00:44:19.440
Angela Bergmann: Compared to be after

593
00:44:23.550 –> 00:44:41.400
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in I’ve been in the situations because I do a lot of advocacy for nonprofit outside of just work where like those presentations have to be more structured, but even those I leave that wiggle room because I think that’s how it helps me get over that fear.

594
00:44:43.170 –> 00:44:44.580
Jacob Stoops: If you guys ever seen the movie old

595
00:44:44.580 –> 00:44:45.030
School

596
00:44:46.380 –> 00:44:46.950
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

597
00:44:47.130 –> 00:44:51.090
Angela Bergmann: No, you have Jeff and I have a question for you, Angela, but

598
00:44:52.470 –> 00:44:53.760
Angela Bergmann: I guess I should have phrased it the other

599
00:44:54.120 –> 00:44:54.990
Angela Bergmann: Way. Anyway, so

600
00:44:55.620 –> 00:44:56.310
Jacob Stoops: For those of you

601
00:44:56.790 –> 00:45:11.370
Jacob Stoops: Folks, they haven’t seen the movie. First off, it’s funny movie so you should go see it it’s it’s old older it’s from my generation, I guess. But I guess, which makes it a little old um there’s a scene in the movie.

602
00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:13.500
Jacob Stoops: Where Will Ferrell’s character.

603
00:45:13.950 –> 00:45:23.010
Jacob Stoops: Goes up for like a debate and they’re essentially debating as part of this competition to keep the charter for their fraternity.

604
00:45:23.970 –> 00:45:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Loose loose fraternity going so that they can keep their debauchery of a fraternity open and so they’re having this debate and it’s it’s this this massive thing with a moderator.

605
00:45:37.350 –> 00:45:46.530
Jacob Stoops: And the school president who does not want this fraternity to exist, kind of tries to rig it and he brings in famed political commentator James Carville

606
00:45:47.490 –> 00:45:54.570
Jacob Stoops: And then they asked this really, really hard question and James Carville is about to answer and Will Ferrell goes Excuse me.

607
00:45:54.990 –> 00:46:06.240
Jacob Stoops: I think I could take that one. James Carville is like have added hos and Will Ferrell its character proceeds to perfectly and succinctly answer the question.

608
00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:17.190
Jacob Stoops: And then immediately after everybody’s patting him on the back, and he just kind of like wakes up and goes anybody’s like what the, what the heck just happened I blacked out

609
00:46:18.660 –> 00:46:22.200
Jacob Stoops: And for me, when I’m public speaking. Sometimes

610
00:46:22.200 –> 00:46:22.950
Angela Bergmann: And or

611
00:46:23.010 –> 00:46:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Sometimes when I’m like

612
00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:32.460
Jacob Stoops: When I have material that I know and I’m very, very comfortable with. I feel like there have been times for me where that kind of happens

613
00:46:33.150 –> 00:46:33.510
Jacob Stoops: Where I’m

614
00:46:34.080 –> 00:46:35.280
Jacob Stoops: going with the flow.

615
00:46:35.340 –> 00:46:44.820
Jacob Stoops: And it’s almost like you can do it on autopilot. And I, it makes me sometimes, when that has happened to me think of that scene in that movie.

616
00:46:45.960 –> 00:46:59.580
Jacob Stoops: And in that’s in. That’s the version of me that is over my over my stress about public speaking and very comfortable with doing it and very much. Josh, I think with the with the audience. And I would say like

617
00:47:00.960 –> 00:47:15.150
Jacob Stoops: I’ve, I feel like I i personally come a long way, but for me it’s even still awkward because there is there is that element of it. So there are people that are just so not comfortable with it and I’m definitely one of those

618
00:47:15.570 –> 00:47:17.220
Jacob Stoops: People even still, even

619
00:47:17.250 –> 00:47:18.930
Angela Bergmann: My deep into my career.

620
00:47:20.490 –> 00:47:23.400
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, Jeff. What’s in the news.

621
00:47:25.020 –> 00:47:31.380
Jeff Louella: So the biggest news this week was Wall Street Journal released an article out that

622
00:47:32.580 –> 00:47:37.020
Jeff Louella: was titled How Google interferes with its search algorithms and changes your results.

623
00:47:37.770 –> 00:47:40.170
Angela Bergmann: And as a typical

624
00:47:40.170 –> 00:47:42.660
Jeff Louella: Fashion SEOs went nuts.

625
00:47:44.310 –> 00:47:55.590
Jeff Louella: And I would say semi right so um I guess like Wall Street Journal, you know, not necessarily necessarily known as like degree to source for SEO material.

626
00:47:56.850 –> 00:47:57.510
Jeff Louella: But they sent a

627
00:47:57.840 –> 00:48:03.630
Jeff Louella: Material. Yeah, that’s where I go first. You know, for my SEO stuff, but I always get their paywall block.

628
00:48:03.930 –> 00:48:06.360
Jeff Louella: So I will admit that I read.

629
00:48:07.380 –> 00:48:08.190
Jeff Louella: one paragraph.

630
00:48:08.280 –> 00:48:08.910
Jeff Louella: And then

631
00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:10.650
Jeff Louella: Boots because I did not pay for the

632
00:48:10.650 –> 00:48:11.280
Angela Bergmann: Wall Street Journal

633
00:48:11.730 –> 00:48:13.440
Jeff Louella: And I really think if

634
00:48:13.680 –> 00:48:15.600
Angela Bergmann: SEOs didn’t go crazy that article.

635
00:48:15.630 –> 00:48:17.100
Angela Bergmann: Know what even read it but

636
00:48:18.480 –> 00:48:20.430
Jeff Louella: Except, like, you know, businessman.

637
00:48:22.050 –> 00:48:27.450
Jeff Louella: But in general, you know, it’s like one of the big things that they interviewed over 100 different people for this. They said,

638
00:48:27.840 –> 00:48:37.050
Jeff Louella: And it’s interesting because I guess all who you interview and the way I look at it and how they probably got their information right it’s like I interviewed 100 SEOs okay I can

639
00:48:37.800 –> 00:48:45.660
Jeff Louella: I can interview a whole bunch of really great SEOs and then there’s all these link builders and spammers I can interview also. So, of course, and they conspiracy

640
00:48:45.660 –> 00:48:47.580
Angela Bergmann: Theories right so if

641
00:48:47.760 –> 00:48:49.440
Jeff Louella: I’m reading some of these, and I’m going

642
00:48:49.650 –> 00:48:51.060
Jeff Louella: Okay, that’s a conspiracy theory.

643
00:48:51.060 –> 00:48:52.590
Angela Bergmann: But the Wall Street Journal didn’t really do their

644
00:48:52.590 –> 00:48:53.490
Investigative

645
00:48:55.590 –> 00:48:57.240
Angela Bergmann: Actually access to that if they did.

646
00:48:57.300 –> 00:48:59.250
Jeff Louella: Like I know Glenn gave was misquoted on

647
00:48:59.250 –> 00:48:59.760
Jeff Louella: His

648
00:49:00.690 –> 00:49:02.640
Jeff Louella: But some of the things they were kind of saying is

649
00:49:03.330 –> 00:49:07.740
Jeff Louella: You know, Google makes algorithm changes the benefit and favorite big business.

650
00:49:08.730 –> 00:49:15.750
Jeff Louella: So that’s something people have been saying for a long time and but if you kind of understand algorithms, you look at it and saying like

651
00:49:16.590 –> 00:49:27.360
Jeff Louella: Do I want to order something from Amazon com or do I want to order something from the smallest like one guy who had one website, who has one product and gets

652
00:49:27.780 –> 00:49:28.920
Angela Bergmann: Totally trustworthy.

653
00:49:29.010 –> 00:49:29.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s totally

654
00:49:29.490 –> 00:49:31.740
Jeff Louella: Right, so there is a trust factor to this.

655
00:49:32.370 –> 00:49:34.470
Angela Bergmann: To me it wasn’t news, but I guess there’s some people

656
00:49:35.610 –> 00:49:39.930
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, there’s a trust factor and SEO. Yeah.

657
00:49:40.500 –> 00:49:44.460
Angela Bergmann: It’s part of the Shakespeare return eat what the

658
00:49:45.420 –> 00:49:47.940
Jeff Louella: Yeah. And if you read any of the guidelines, it seems

659
00:49:47.940 –> 00:49:50.460
Jeff Louella: Like, that’s part of it, right, then go for people who

660
00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:55.080
Angela Bergmann: Have like expertise and authority and trust so

661
00:49:56.520 –> 00:49:58.050
Jeff Louella: Another I guess was you

662
00:49:58.770 –> 00:50:01.590
Jacob Stoops: Know, we’re not moving past this yet, Jeff.

663
00:50:07.380 –> 00:50:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Seinfeld.

664
00:50:10.230 –> 00:50:15.750
Jacob Stoops: So Wall Street Journal. So they were they wrote an article about SEO. Okay.

665
00:50:16.980 –> 00:50:20.550
Jacob Stoops: They’re not an authority on SEO. So like on one side.

666
00:50:21.570 –> 00:50:31.200
Jacob Stoops: I’m thinking as a person who would have been interviewed well damn it would have been really cool to be approached by the Wall Street Journal to like

667
00:50:31.590 –> 00:50:32.040
Angela Bergmann: Have

668
00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:47.550
Jacob Stoops: What my thoughts but like the the cynic in me in in the person in me, who pays attention to things outside of the scope of SEO would think, well,

669
00:50:48.150 –> 00:50:59.550
Jacob Stoops: The Wall Street Journal is a media outlet and the reporter is probably being given a directive by their superiors and their leadership within the company.

670
00:51:00.030 –> 00:51:13.950
Jacob Stoops: That whatever they report it has to take a certain slant. So when things came out as being misquoted and being just probably factually wrong like

671
00:51:15.150 –> 00:51:20.820
Jacob Stoops: Given the environment today and I don’t want to, like, I want to bring in politics, but

672
00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:23.100
Angela Bergmann: Given the political environment that we

673
00:51:23.130 –> 00:51:24.420
Jacob Stoops: All live in today.

674
00:51:24.720 –> 00:51:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Where media outlets are slanted in one way or another with

675
00:51:29.640 –> 00:51:30.510
Angela Bergmann: Agendas

676
00:51:30.960 –> 00:51:40.020
Jacob Stoops: Should it have surprised. Anybody who was interviewed that they were misquoted and that this reporter found a way to push their agenda.

677
00:51:41.310 –> 00:51:51.840
Jacob Stoops: Pretty much, despite the evidence given by the people who were being quoted like. Does that surprise you guys that they took those quotes and slanted them the way that they wanted

678
00:51:53.850 –> 00:52:03.900
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know. So I’ve been. I’ve been interviewed for a couple of different media publications. I’ve been in USA Today. And I’ve been in Slate both

679
00:52:04.980 –> 00:52:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Her infertility related things and they both stories they they were really accurate for how they quoted me so I would probably be surprised, personally.

680
00:52:16.680 –> 00:52:25.560
Angela Bergmann: I think it would have more to do with finding out. So when I’m typically approached for something like that I typically want to know, like what’s the slant like what’s the endgame here.

681
00:52:26.040 –> 00:52:35.550
Angela Bergmann: Like what are, what is this what is the purpose because there is a purpose for the article. It’s being ready to find out what that is and see if it’s going to be in line with what you’re going to say.

682
00:52:37.440 –> 00:52:41.280
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we don’t want to have all this effort and time they say

683
00:52:42.330 –> 00:52:46.680
Jeff Louella: Oh, Google’s just, you know, not doing bad things, right, like the whole idea is you want to

684
00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:48.990
Jeff Louella: kind of try to expose them on it and

685
00:52:49.950 –> 00:53:01.530
Jeff Louella: It is I, I would be shocked a little bit right because out of all the news out there like if I was on Gawker, or Buzzfeed. Like, I expect them to maybe get things wrong. I don’t know why. Maybe, yeah.

686
00:53:01.590 –> 00:53:02.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s less

687
00:53:02.490 –> 00:53:03.690
Jeff Louella: But the Wall Street Journal

688
00:53:04.290 –> 00:53:19.920
Jeff Louella: Like there is this integrity with like big things right and there was a time where the, I think the New York Times explodes JC Penney for doing black hat SEO and I was kind of actually shocked that it’s New York Times exposing them doing it. I can’t like

689
00:53:20.040 –> 00:53:21.180
Jeff Louella: Oh, Wall Street Journal

690
00:53:22.110 –> 00:53:32.400
Jeff Louella: Same to me. Same level, not knowing. Like I don’t read it. I’m actually but in my head, same level of professionalism, we get things right and misquoting like if it was a little misquote great but

691
00:53:32.940 –> 00:53:41.250
Jeff Louella: Are not great but you know an understandable, but I mean, as I think when Gabe said like he was not even a he was off the record. He was not even

692
00:53:41.760 –> 00:53:50.760
Jeff Louella: Mentioned in the article, and then they mentioned them with a, you know, with our misquote or me up because he said he’d never said that. So to me that’s not misquoting that’s just making up a quote

693
00:53:51.420 –> 00:54:07.980
Jeff Louella: And it looks at that going like, oh, that’s not great. And then just the topics that were in there. I think are easily understandable by most easily understandable, but most SEOs won’t say it’s black magic and that people were back there, controlling it like

694
00:54:08.430 –> 00:54:10.470
Jeff Louella: Of course they have people looking at results and

695
00:54:10.500 –> 00:54:18.780
Jeff Louella: Altering algorithms based on that because they want to make sure, like we are getting what we want and as a as a customer or

696
00:54:18.810 –> 00:54:20.220
Angela Bergmann: You know, my wife who doesn’t get SEO.

697
00:54:20.640 –> 00:54:22.500
Jeff Louella: she’s getting what she wants. When she typed it in

698
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:23.970
Jeff Louella: Like you have to

699
00:54:24.000 –> 00:54:24.990
Angela Bergmann: Look at the results.

700
00:54:25.020 –> 00:54:26.670
Angela Bergmann: And then all term with what

701
00:54:26.790 –> 00:54:28.290
Jeff Louella: What is great and it’s like again.

702
00:54:28.680 –> 00:54:30.300
Jeff Louella: We have 17

703
00:54:30.840 –> 00:54:34.590
Jeff Louella: Sites that didn’t make sense to me or one that okay it’s Wikipedia.

704
00:54:35.100 –> 00:54:37.920
Jeff Louella: Into the biggest site out there for information like of course they’re

705
00:54:37.920 –> 00:54:38.700
Jeff Louella: Gonna be up there all the time.

706
00:54:40.230 –> 00:54:44.190
Angela Bergmann: That’s the thing that like boggles my mind will articles like this where it’s like

707
00:54:44.790 –> 00:54:57.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, Google, the business, obviously they’re in it. They’re making money at the end of the day, though they only make money if they give people what they’re looking for. So that’s still their end goal their end goal still to give the consumer what they want.

708
00:54:58.860 –> 00:54:59.130
Angela Bergmann: And

709
00:55:00.600 –> 00:55:00.930
Angela Bergmann: It’s

710
00:55:00.960 –> 00:55:01.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s funny, like

711
00:55:03.210 –> 00:55:06.600
Jacob Stoops: Google is the reason I have a job, but then

712
00:55:06.720 –> 00:55:08.400
Angela Bergmann: There are a lot of times where I think

713
00:55:08.400 –> 00:55:09.840
Angela Bergmann: Google is

714
00:55:09.960 –> 00:55:12.090
Jacob Stoops: Evil sometimes. Yeah.

715
00:55:13.200 –> 00:55:14.790
Thank you a lot of things.

716
00:55:17.520 –> 00:55:18.840
Jacob Stoops: They say for users.

717
00:55:18.960 –> 00:55:25.350
Jacob Stoops: But really like a lot of stuff is to enrich the folks within the company and to affect

718
00:55:25.440 –> 00:55:25.980
Angela Bergmann: Oh, yeah.

719
00:55:26.790 –> 00:55:32.160
Angela Bergmann: And their shareholders and things, things of that nature. I actually don’t believe that this

720
00:55:32.160 –> 00:55:47.430
Jacob Stoops: Story is one of those things that I think it’s supposed to indict Google and I think maybe the average person who doesn’t do what we do will read it and think, what the hell’s going on at Google and will think that they’re the evil empire.

721
00:55:47.460 –> 00:55:50.760
Angela Bergmann: I think for the folks. Yeah, interviewed and for the folks

722
00:55:50.760 –> 00:55:59.340
Jacob Stoops: Inside the industry like I don’t take this article so seriously because I think that the way it’s being slanted is just

723
00:56:00.810 –> 00:56:04.650
Jacob Stoops: If stating things that aren’t a problem like they are a problem.

724
00:56:05.310 –> 00:56:06.570
Jacob Stoops: And I think the other side of

725
00:56:06.570 –> 00:56:07.740
Jacob Stoops: This is if I were one of the

726
00:56:07.740 –> 00:56:09.000
Jacob Stoops: People that got interviewed

727
00:56:10.080 –> 00:56:24.480
Jacob Stoops: I think what I was trying to say earlier is like, I don’t. I think they were being naive to think that a publication like this in in Jeff when that JC Penney thing happened. I feel like that’s more than 10 years ago the climate.

728
00:56:24.750 –> 00:56:27.330
Jacob Stoops: With media in that 10 years

729
00:56:27.660 –> 00:56:29.730
Angela Bergmann: Has changed radically

730
00:56:29.790 –> 00:56:31.530
Jacob Stoops: Especially with what’s going on in

731
00:56:31.740 –> 00:56:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Politics right now and it’s kind of like Hatfields and McCoys where like

732
00:56:37.380 –> 00:56:38.580
Jacob Stoops: One media outlet

733
00:56:39.180 –> 00:56:39.480
Angela Bergmann: Is

734
00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:46.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s very black and white against one side and the other media outlet outlet is very black and white against the other. And there’s no middle we

735
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:55.320
Angela Bergmann: Are we are the enemy currently say I work on the agency side, but I still work for a media Publishing Company, first and foremost, we are the enemy right

736
00:56:55.650 –> 00:56:57.450
Jacob Stoops: So there’s a lot of bias.

737
00:56:57.930 –> 00:57:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Going on. So, so for these people like they have a right

738
00:57:01.470 –> 00:57:03.450
Jacob Stoops: To be pissed. I would be pissed if I was

739
00:57:03.480 –> 00:57:04.800
Jacob Stoops: misquoted or

740
00:57:04.830 –> 00:57:07.620
Jacob Stoops: Completely like having something a true. Oh, yeah.

741
00:57:07.950 –> 00:57:09.330
Angela Bergmann: You did. I didn’t say, but at the same

742
00:57:09.330 –> 00:57:12.900
Jacob Stoops: Time, like, consider the source. This is the wall.

743
00:57:12.900 –> 00:57:13.620
Jacob Stoops: Street Journal

744
00:57:14.190 –> 00:57:15.300
Jacob Stoops: They’re probably pushing an

745
00:57:15.300 –> 00:57:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Agenda, they’re not

746
00:57:17.760 –> 00:57:19.890
Angela Bergmann: An S. It’s not like their Search Engine Land.

747
00:57:19.950 –> 00:57:27.210
Jacob Stoops: Right. They’re not SEO news so they’re not people that know what goes on in the inner workings every day, like we do.

748
00:57:27.510 –> 00:57:44.310
Jacob Stoops: So, like, just by the very nature of it, they’re probably going to get some of it wrong or miss attribute or misunderstand some of what you’re saying. And when you layer that into the idea that there might be some sort of ulterior motive on the part of the reporter or the

749
00:57:45.630 –> 00:57:47.460
Jacob Stoops: The entity doing the publishing

750
00:57:48.690 –> 00:58:00.120
Jacob Stoops: I just think that probably the folks might have been a little naive to think that that wasn’t going to happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether they if I were in their situation being quoted

751
00:58:00.180 –> 00:58:01.680
Jacob Stoops: I probably would have provided a

752
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Quote, to not saying that I wouldn’t have been it’s just an interesting way to, to think about it and I probably would have been mad if they miss quoted me. I don’t know if I would have thought of that way like cynically like I guess I should have expected it.

753
00:58:18.300 –> 00:58:30.390
Jacob Stoops: And I would imagine being in their place. Maybe they did think about that. Maybe they didn’t but like looking at it from an outsider’s perspective. I’m not surprised that it got distorted. So that’s my two cents.

754
00:58:31.530 –> 00:58:35.430
Jacob Stoops: Everybody in SEO who got quoted feel feel free to come and tap me but

755
00:58:36.300 –> 00:58:36.900
Jacob Stoops: I hope you don’t

756
00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:39.690
Angela Bergmann: I don’t want a part of

757
00:58:39.930 –> 00:58:40.650
Angela Bergmann: Twitter drama.

758
00:58:42.030 –> 00:58:44.460
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jeff, you can move on. That’s my piece.

759
00:58:44.940 –> 00:58:57.240
Jeff Louella: Cool. I mean, there was other parts to the story too. So, I mean, one of it. That was like a big thing right that Google’s manually changing things they’ve engineers behind that. Like they said that, you know, even a bot.

760
00:58:57.990 –> 00:58:58.950
Angela Bergmann: Placements

761
00:58:58.980 –> 00:59:00.420
Jeff Louella: You know, did to be better and

762
00:59:00.420 –> 00:59:00.960
Angela Bergmann: The search

763
00:59:02.220 –> 00:59:05.880
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, Hey, thank you for that upgrade, but I don’t think

764
00:59:06.660 –> 00:59:08.310
Jacob Stoops: That’s just called paid search

765
00:59:08.520 –> 00:59:09.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, so there was

766
00:59:10.080 –> 00:59:11.070
Jeff Louella: They’ve done paid search and

767
00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:16.050
Jeff Louella: Search. Right. So it’s, yeah, there were, there was a ton. You know, I think when the part of

768
00:59:16.350 –> 00:59:18.270
Angela Bergmann: A bigger budget. That’s not fair.

769
00:59:19.980 –> 00:59:23.400
Jeff Louella: They will parts of the Google employees thousand paid contractors

770
00:59:23.760 –> 00:59:29.070
Jeff Louella: Whose sole purpose is to assess the quality of the algorithm and rankings like that is a negative thing.

771
00:59:30.120 –> 00:59:30.780
Jeff Louella: Like and

772
00:59:30.990 –> 00:59:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Lots of corporations high opaque attractors to do things.

773
00:59:35.880 –> 00:59:48.390
Jeff Louella: But then they survey them and say, Okay, did you see the results that you expected. And they will say like yes or no. I think this should be here and there, and that’s where really brand dominance comes into play. Like if I’m searching for

774
00:59:48.870 –> 00:59:49.200
Jeff Louella: You know,

775
00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:50.820
Jeff Louella: Some sort of

776
00:59:51.690 –> 00:59:57.870
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, a stroller. And like I was expecting target to show up because targets right down the street from me.

777
00:59:58.470 –> 01:00:09.240
Jeff Louella: And I didn’t get target, I would probably say, hey, I thought like started with me there and then Google can just things to maybe get results, but they’re not like targets not calling them and saying, hey, we’re not number one.

778
01:00:10.110 –> 01:00:11.130
Jeff Louella: Let’s put us in this place.

779
01:00:11.160 –> 01:00:11.790
Jeff Louella: And they

780
01:00:12.510 –> 01:00:19.410
Jeff Louella: They’re saying this is across thousands of contractors, right, like a quick like you’re not just going to tweak something and be like, Okay. Like, that’s probably

781
01:00:19.830 –> 01:00:33.270
Jeff Louella: Everything with Google. One of the ranking factors, right, because other things come into place. You know, we know links and content and all this other stuff comes into play. But at the end, if there are giving you the results you you’re not going to use them. Right, so it’s

782
01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:33.780
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of

783
01:00:34.770 –> 01:00:36.000
Jeff Louella: The effect of where it’s

784
01:00:36.030 –> 01:00:45.750
Jeff Louella: You know, we see this on the side of things, right, where it’s, I mean, there’s one reason. Google is Google. And that’s because they mostly give us what we want.

785
01:00:46.500 –> 01:00:47.460
Angela Bergmann: As an SEO.

786
01:00:47.670 –> 01:00:57.480
Jeff Louella: I sometimes hate that, because I don’t want the, you know, this knowledge graph to come up above my client site, but as a consumer, like great answer my question banks.

787
01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Don’t need to go to the website so

788
01:01:00.030 –> 01:01:08.490
Jeff Louella: I see both sides of it and I had to think about it as a consumer side of things and consumers like we need like I’m typing into Google and he ever results.

789
01:01:09.150 –> 01:01:22.830
Jeff Louella: As an SEO. I hate that, like, okay, my 10 links are now push down because I have images and paid search and things in the paid side to me as a consumer who wouldn’t know it could be deceptive, to an extent.

790
01:01:24.270 –> 01:01:29.160
Jeff Louella: I mean, they may name it ads. But if I don’t know anything about search like I’m clicking one of those ads. Right, so it’s

791
01:01:30.360 –> 01:01:35.940
Jeff Louella: And hopefully Google’s placing the right ads, where they need to be collect or or someone’s paying for ads for no reason.

792
01:01:37.950 –> 01:01:40.320
Jeff Louella: But yeah, there’s a ton in there, I think.

793
01:01:41.490 –> 01:01:44.370
Jeff Louella: One of the things is like they went through and saying that

794
01:01:45.630 –> 01:01:47.850
Jeff Louella: They had a black list of

795
01:01:48.720 –> 01:01:50.310
Jeff Louella: Domain companies that they don’t

796
01:01:50.340 –> 01:01:51.030
Angela Bergmann: Rank well

797
01:01:51.660 –> 01:01:54.000
Jeff Louella: And maybe like

798
01:01:54.570 –> 01:01:56.100
Jeff Louella: I don’t think there’s like a whiteboard with like

799
01:01:56.100 –> 01:01:59.970
Jeff Louella: All, you know, or if you ever watch the TV show blacklist.

800
01:02:01.380 –> 01:02:02.670
Jeff Louella: Yeah, or anything like that.

801
01:02:02.670 –> 01:02:03.900
Angela Bergmann: But it’s like hey

802
01:02:04.170 –> 01:02:06.660
Jeff Louella: There’s spammers out there and of course

803
01:02:06.810 –> 01:02:07.230
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

804
01:02:07.590 –> 01:02:09.090
Jeff Louella: We don’t want them showing up.

805
01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:10.260
Jeff Louella: Because we weren’t following reason.

806
01:02:10.680 –> 01:02:14.520
Angela Bergmann: Now it does not exist for a reason.

807
01:02:16.590 –> 01:02:20.820
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve got all those files were self reporting.

808
01:02:22.500 –> 01:02:23.250
Angela Bergmann: So, I mean, I think.

809
01:02:23.280 –> 01:02:25.620
Jeff Louella: As SEOs we get this and we see it as bad and I

810
01:02:25.710 –> 01:02:27.720
Angela Bergmann: Understand the backlash lash out there.

811
01:02:28.440 –> 01:02:29.970
Jeff Louella: On there, but it’s one of those where

812
01:02:31.350 –> 01:02:39.210
Jeff Louella: Maybe this is where like we were talking about earlier that like I feel like the beginner stuff that I like to look like everyone knows that.

813
01:02:40.110 –> 01:02:51.360
Jeff Louella: But there’s, you know, and it comes to things like that, especially in the Wall Street Journal, maybe point 1% knows, like the truth there and that’s where it comes damaging and I think we also tried to

814
01:02:51.390 –> 01:02:53.280
Angela Bergmann: defend ourselves as SEOs

815
01:02:53.460 –> 01:02:56.730
Jeff Louella: Plenty of times we. There’s a lot of bad

816
01:02:56.910 –> 01:02:57.600
Angela Bergmann: News out there.

817
01:02:57.660 –> 01:02:58.380
Right, so

818
01:03:00.270 –> 01:03:02.130
Jeff Louella: We don’t want to be misquoted like a good ones don’t.

819
01:03:02.160 –> 01:03:04.320
Jeff Louella: Be misquoted or see like we’re playing

820
01:03:04.560 –> 01:03:07.290
Angela Bergmann: Like magic that’s going on. So, I get that.

821
01:03:10.590 –> 01:03:14.190
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s where I think some of the frustration for that article comes from is that it’s

822
01:03:15.390 –> 01:03:17.220
Angela Bergmann: A more highly regarded new sort of

823
01:03:19.110 –> 01:03:24.870
Angela Bergmann: Niche recording misreporting about our industry when we already. We already have enough crap that we have to

824
01:03:28.290 –> 01:03:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Add them in. Now, to think

825
01:03:31.620 –> 01:03:33.210
Angela Bergmann: That is a good point and

826
01:03:34.260 –> 01:03:43.890
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, you brought up a good point. Like, there are a lot of bad SEO is out there. And one of the thoughts that was occurring in my brain was, well, if I’m a bad SEO like

827
01:03:44.460 –> 01:03:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Do I know that I’m a bad SEO and probably the answer is, not always. And I’m not saying any of those folks are bad SEOs but what occurred to me. Next is if I were a good SEO.

828
01:03:56.730 –> 01:04:04.380
Jacob Stoops: And this is some sort of a smear against Google or a sneer against SEO in general.

829
01:04:05.040 –> 01:04:18.390
Jacob Stoops: There might be the perception that I’m a bad SEO and I wouldn’t want that perception associated with me if, indeed, I was a good SEO. So yeah, I could see where the folks might get mad about that. It is a good question. I never

830
01:04:18.390 –> 01:04:22.320
Jeff Louella: Thought about was advantage to that I know if I was an SEO.

831
01:04:23.730 –> 01:04:35.040
Jeff Louella: Like the link builders realize that there. I guess spammers and other spammers right so it’s, yeah. But there’s, I mean there. I know there’s white hat Red Hat and things like that so

832
01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:38.220
Angela Bergmann: It’s interesting because I just don’t

833
01:04:39.060 –> 01:04:54.870
Jeff Louella: I do find that that that look right with companies that like, oh, SEO is black magic or SEO is is bad and actually fighting internal politics at companies where I’m trying to tell a developer, how to code a site a certain way.

834
01:04:55.200 –> 01:04:56.040
Jeff Louella: Am I giving you the code.

835
01:04:56.400 –> 01:04:57.630
Angela Bergmann: We need these results at the

836
01:04:57.630 –> 01:04:58.500
Jeff Louella: End and

837
01:04:58.530 –> 01:05:00.150
Jeff Louella: They think of me as like

838
01:05:01.500 –> 01:05:02.220
Angela Bergmann: The enemy.

839
01:05:02.490 –> 01:05:04.080
Jeff Louella: The enemy and something so

840
01:05:04.890 –> 01:05:08.220
Jeff Louella: Having more fuel to their fire is not what I’m looking for.

841
01:05:08.700 –> 01:05:09.300
Angela Bergmann: And it. Yeah.

842
01:05:09.360 –> 01:05:10.440
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I’m not gonna say like

843
01:05:11.010 –> 01:05:17.760
Jeff Louella: Hey trust everything in SEO says also because I think that’s why there could be some misquotes in that article, depending on the interview.

844
01:05:18.660 –> 01:05:27.090
Jeff Louella: Like there are plenty of SEO is out there who believe Google’s manipulating your search results. And that’s why they can’t get the number one. That’s what they’re telling their clients like you’ll never be

845
01:05:27.630 –> 01:05:29.430
Jeff Louella: Target because their target.

846
01:05:29.850 –> 01:05:37.890
Jeff Louella: And there might be some truth to that. But to say that Google reserve this spot for target is not. Yeah, it’s not right. It’s

847
01:05:38.550 –> 01:05:43.290
Jeff Louella: Become become Amazon like Amazon started off as a guy in the back of his truck like delivering books.

848
01:05:43.830 –> 01:05:52.860
Jeff Louella: And now he’s Amazon right and not everyone can do that of course it’s a it’s an amazing story, but the same time you know it’s it’s really hard for small business.

849
01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:05.790
Jeff Louella: Right now to rank for those top end terms. You got to find a better way. You know, whether it’s social or just giving customers different, you know, becoming that authority becoming that like expertise.

850
01:06:06.750 –> 01:06:15.480
Jeff Louella: It’s it’s a lot of work and it’s not something you can pay $500 a month to do, especially when you’re fighting against like someone like Target and Amazon in

851
01:06:15.870 –> 01:06:16.500
Angela Bergmann: Our space.

852
01:06:17.610 –> 01:06:27.240
Angela Bergmann: And the point that I always make people to as those top terms are going to be your conversion point. Anyways, so just ignore them like they’re not going to actually turn into dollars for you. You don’t want that traffic.

853
01:06:29.070 –> 01:06:30.240
Jacob Stoops: But people have vanity.

854
01:06:31.050 –> 01:06:33.450
Angela Bergmann: And people have egos.

855
01:06:34.080 –> 01:06:35.490
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the problem.

856
01:06:35.670 –> 01:06:39.150
Angela Bergmann: They want those terms. Yeah, and have them so

857
01:06:40.410 –> 01:06:49.470
Jacob Stoops: Anyways. So Jeff, I know that there’s some other news, we’re running short on short on time. So I want to dive into structured data.

858
01:06:51.660 –> 01:06:54.120
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. I know.

859
01:06:54.540 –> 01:06:55.200
You were saying

860
01:06:56.340 –> 01:06:57.150
That you do

861
01:06:58.530 –> 01:07:07.770
Jacob Stoops: You work all the time in structured data. So I guess what are, what are your thoughts. What do you like about it. What do you not like about it. What would you recommend to people.

862
01:07:09.360 –> 01:07:24.540
Angela Bergmann: So I’ll start with the thing that I don’t like about it on. I don’t like how little visibility, there is into the reporting for it because of how critical it’s become so their search console. I can see some rich snippet information.

863
01:07:26.940 –> 01:07:27.960
Angela Bergmann: Kind of what again.

864
01:07:29.190 –> 01:07:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Like at least there’s that visibility, so I can show the eyeball, um,

865
01:07:36.060 –> 01:07:49.440
Angela Bergmann: So I’ve started, including that in my reporting for clients but but more robust reporting specific to snippet placement would be amazing, because I do at the end of the day, understand that it’s

866
01:07:51.210 –> 01:07:57.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s tough to the Google can make money, but it also is user experience, the less the user has to click the happier. They are

867
01:07:59.250 –> 01:08:06.990
Angela Bergmann: And so Google is going to make their money. So I totally 100% yet it from their side, but I really want

868
01:08:08.970 –> 01:08:26.130
Angela Bergmann: To be able to show my clients, where they’re showing up like here’s all the backend work that I’ve done. Here’s all the coding that we’ve done implemented and it’s working. Here’s the effect that it’s having not just looked at all eyeballs that for you. Yeah.

869
01:08:28.920 –> 01:08:29.760
Angela Bergmann: You like it.

870
01:08:31.680 –> 01:08:41.880
Jacob Stoops: The thing that I find interesting in like Jeff, I would say, Jeff, you’re probably a little bit more technical than, than I am, although I’m pretty I’m pretty technical is

871
01:08:42.900 –> 01:08:51.870
Jacob Stoops: Everybody knows, quote unquote, I’m gonna say quote unquote knows that structured data is supposedly a good thing, right.

872
01:08:53.040 –> 01:09:03.390
Jacob Stoops: And there’s all kinds of structured data out there and I’m glad that we’re now calling it structured data because that’s the larger umbrella. A lot of people just call it schema.org and I keep going well.

873
01:09:03.390 –> 01:09:04.680
Angela Bergmann: That’s, that’s one type

874
01:09:05.160 –> 01:09:05.580
Jacob Stoops: But like

875
01:09:05.610 –> 01:09:17.850
Jacob Stoops: There are a bunch of other not a bunch. But there are other types of structured data that Google can use. So people a lot of times get structured data and schema.org confused confused and

876
01:09:18.210 –> 01:09:18.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

877
01:09:19.050 –> 01:09:19.530
I find it.

878
01:09:20.580 –> 01:09:39.300
Jacob Stoops: I find that part. Interesting. But the thing, the thing about structured data in general is is when we’re doing a technical audit or when we’re working on a sites technical foundation that is one of our leading recommendations in terms of things that we often see lacking that need

879
01:09:39.480 –> 01:09:41.250
Angela Bergmann: Implemented but the thought.

880
01:09:41.280 –> 01:09:53.430
Jacob Stoops: Always occurs to me is, should it be, should it be one of our leading recommendations. And the reason why is there are so many types of structured data out there.

881
01:09:54.120 –> 01:10:07.050
Jacob Stoops: What the things that actually populate rich snippets in search results versus the amount of structured data that’s available that you could mark your site up with. It’s like

882
01:10:07.110 –> 01:10:08.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, and percent

883
01:10:08.850 –> 01:10:11.820
Jacob Stoops: Or 20% or I don’t even know what the percentage is but like

884
01:10:12.690 –> 01:10:14.670
Jacob Stoops: You could mark mark the

885
01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:28.440
Jacob Stoops: Crap out of your site with all kinds of structured data and there’s no proof. There’s no proof that it’s actually doing anything beneficial for you until you get some sort of a rich snippet.

886
01:10:28.890 –> 01:10:39.180
Jacob Stoops: And what you’re saying and it’s in. It’s very true is even when you get that the reporting is so limited in terms in terms of is it doing anything valuable.

887
01:10:39.540 –> 01:10:56.730
Jacob Stoops: For you that it always makes me scratch my head when I hear folks go yeah structured data is is good and we want to feed Google a bunch of information and we need to get that implemented right away because it’s critical to technical site health

888
01:10:57.330 –> 01:10:58.650
Jacob Stoops: And the thing I always like

889
01:10:59.130 –> 01:11:00.180
Jacob Stoops: Take a step back and

890
01:11:00.180 –> 01:11:05.280
Jacob Stoops: Think is okay. I agree. But like, when we’re talking to the client like

891
01:11:05.730 –> 01:11:19.650
Jacob Stoops: A lot of times they need proof and they need evidence and they need a reason to prioritize something in their development queue or to display something in their development huge prioritize your recommendations. And the thing I

892
01:11:19.650 –> 01:11:19.980
Angela Bergmann: Always

893
01:11:20.040 –> 01:11:22.080
Jacob Stoops: Worry about is we have such a limited

894
01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:35.850
Jacob Stoops: window to get things implemented and to make an impact before our contract runs out on the agency side and I always worry that we’re blindly following quote unquote best practices because Google

895
01:11:36.450 –> 01:11:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Pushes it or because we think it’s a best practice without ever testing it on the other end without testing say hey I implemented blog post schema. Okay, well, that’s great. Did it do anything for you.

896
01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.120
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know. That’s usually the answer. I don’t know.

897
01:11:55.200 –> 01:12:11.460
Jacob Stoops: But it’s the best practice. So I guess I should implement it and the thing about it is that that honestly that drives me crazy. And what I wish is one that they were better recording and to I wish that more SEOs with think along the

898
01:12:12.570 –> 01:12:18.300
Jacob Stoops: Would use the Frank. The, the line of thinking of test it and measure

899
01:12:18.690 –> 01:12:19.800
Angela Bergmann: Once you implement it.

900
01:12:20.190 –> 01:12:21.210
Angela Bergmann: You what then happens

901
01:12:21.210 –> 01:12:38.610
Jacob Stoops: After that, from a result standpoint and document it so that when you go to another client and you recommend that particular type of structured data scheme or whatever you can say, hey, I did this on this client. And it worked out really well. And here’s why. And

902
01:12:39.180 –> 01:12:40.440
Jacob Stoops: Times, like, especially with

903
01:12:40.440 –> 01:12:49.020
Jacob Stoops: Things that don’t trigger rich snippets, it’s going to be correlation and not necessarily causation, because there’s not really a lot of reporting on it.

904
01:12:50.820 –> 01:12:51.990
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, that’s all I can.

905
01:12:51.990 –> 01:12:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Do and say, oh, well, we saw this many more eyeballs.

906
01:12:57.330 –> 01:13:07.890
Angela Bergmann: That then we do an audit and then we switch over to analytics and we look at, like, they’re your of your organic and then see if their conversion rate is increased and let’s talk about your correlating that if it did increase

907
01:13:08.460 –> 01:13:15.060
Angela Bergmann: It’s probably due to the snippet capture. There’s that connection, isn’t there yet. Yeah. And like

908
01:13:15.630 –> 01:13:23.460
Jacob Stoops: Don’t get me wrong, I love working unstructured data like nothing makes me happier than to sit for an hour and to develop some like

909
01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Clean beautiful JSON structured data market to pass over to the client, say, hey, just throw this into your page. And it’s that part for me because I come from, like, a technical background like

910
01:13:36.240 –> 01:13:44.550
Jacob Stoops: I enjoy doing that and I enjoy putting those recommendations together for clients and I enjoy even more when they implement them and they implement them correctly.

911
01:13:44.880 –> 01:13:45.990
Jacob Stoops: When I can go. Yes.

912
01:13:46.440 –> 01:13:47.670
Jacob Stoops: data testing tool and

913
01:13:47.670 –> 01:13:50.460
Jacob Stoops: See no validation like that.

914
01:13:50.820 –> 01:13:51.630
Jacob Stoops: That stuff like

915
01:13:52.080 –> 01:13:59.310
Jacob Stoops: That makes my heart happy but like the cynic in me and I think every good SEO is also part cynic.

916
01:14:00.030 –> 01:14:01.020
Angela Bergmann: Automatically

917
01:14:01.080 –> 01:14:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Also thinks like, Okay, I’ve got a

918
01:14:02.730 –> 01:14:10.650
Jacob Stoops: I’ve got a finite amount of time with this client, potentially, and I’ve got a finite amount of things that they can implement and I always think like

919
01:14:10.710 –> 01:14:11.070
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

920
01:14:12.000 –> 01:14:13.080
Jacob Stoops: Is this the thing that’s going to

921
01:14:13.080 –> 01:14:24.300
Jacob Stoops: move the needle or is this the thing we’re just trying to get in place, because it’s a best practice and like I think we should all think about the things that move the needle and move those up in the queue before the things that

922
01:14:24.840 –> 01:14:25.320
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, our

923
01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:27.450
Angela Bergmann: Housekeeping best practice items.

924
01:14:29.040 –> 01:14:43.080
Angela Bergmann: And it depends on the vertical to so like if you’re, if you have a client that’s in a vertical where eyeballs are really important. So I one of the one of the clients that I run very high volume schema for is a realtor

925
01:14:44.610 –> 01:14:51.960
Angela Bergmann: They care about eyeballs and they they’re competing against Zillow and Trulia and all of these sites. So realistically

926
01:14:52.290 –> 01:15:00.480
Angela Bergmann: They’re generating content they’re doing all the other stuff that we tend to do for clients. So they’re literally a technical client for us. I

927
01:15:00.870 –> 01:15:07.890
Angela Bergmann: Hold their developer accountable. The page speed improvements and then I implement schema on their site. And that’s all I do for them.

928
01:15:08.580 –> 01:15:20.910
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve seen huge organic growth year over year because of that, but they’re one of those situations where I get to have fun and do that because they’re just looking for visibility, they’re not looking for conversions.

929
01:15:21.750 –> 01:15:32.430
Angela Bergmann: How do I have plants were schema might be fantastic, but they don’t even have content so content got to come first. Oh, let me ask you this.

930
01:15:32.730 –> 01:15:34.860
Angela Bergmann: How did you get into a situation where

931
01:15:35.130 –> 01:15:41.640
Jacob Stoops: The client trust you enough to implement schema, because usually like developers are like, keep your damn hands off.

932
01:15:43.950 –> 01:15:56.370
Angela Bergmann: Um, basically, the way I so we did an audit of their site. We have a custom audit. That’s about 120 pages looks about 350 different points that we go over

933
01:15:57.630 –> 01:16:06.390
Angela Bergmann: Everything and then really for them. I was like, you know, you as a realtor you have great content, your, your descriptions for your homes are amazing.

934
01:16:07.410 –> 01:16:18.810
Angela Bergmann: your site’s going to be a little slow, but it’s a little slower than I think it should be especially when comparing it to your competitors and I pitched them. I said, here’s the thing. I was like, you’re not going to be Zillow

935
01:16:20.340 –> 01:16:34.500
Angela Bergmann: You’re just not but you can beat the other local realtors because somebody’s going to find a home on Zillow and then they know that they’re going to have to go to somebody local so you can be the second result after those big company.

936
01:16:35.850 –> 01:16:50.370
Angela Bergmann: And I taught them because they had no. The reason they had reached out as they’d notice that one of their competitive agencies was showing up before them for the same homes and I determined that it was because their title and none of the structure was pretty terrible.

937
01:16:51.600 –> 01:17:08.430
Angela Bergmann: Got their developers to change it saw within like a couple of months saw drastic change where they were starting to beat them out. And I was like, here’s the next step. The next step is going to be applying schema because they don’t have it Zillow does

938
01:17:09.480 –> 01:17:14.550
Angela Bergmann: That that’s your that’s your sweet spot. And it’s approved to work.

939
01:17:16.560 –> 01:17:27.690
Angela Bergmann: So it was fun. We had a really good relationship with this client already on our paid search side so that helps as well and just having a good real good trusting relationship with this client.

940
01:17:28.200 –> 01:17:39.630
Angela Bergmann: And they kind of let me roll those dice and I was like, I think this is going to pay off. So I told them to. I said, You know, I can’t make any guarantees on this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

941
01:17:41.280 –> 01:17:44.850
Angela Bergmann: And a year later, we we’ve seen, we’ve seen it pan out

942
01:17:46.350 –> 01:17:57.990
Angela Bergmann: But there is that fear you know as an SEO as it goes like, you’re like, No, no, this really should be the thing. It should should work. It should work. Yeah, please God, let it warm.

943
01:18:00.420 –> 01:18:03.390
Angela Bergmann: Google does they have some examples like

944
01:18:03.540 –> 01:18:04.710
Jeff Louella: Google does give some good advice.

945
01:18:04.890 –> 01:18:06.120
Jeff Louella: On like

946
01:18:06.720 –> 01:18:17.820
Jeff Louella: How to schema. Like, like if you do it right. Like it doesn’t guarantee, but you can get a nice you know how to section on your mobile phone or FAQ schema. But then there are those ones out there.

947
01:18:17.880 –> 01:18:18.120
Angela Bergmann: Like

948
01:18:18.900 –> 01:18:23.010
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, I just kind of looked up real quick there like one for comic books.

949
01:18:23.040 –> 01:18:24.810
Jeff Louella: I mean, I guess if you have a comic book site.

950
01:18:24.810 –> 01:18:29.430
Jeff Louella: Or stuff, but it’s like the product. Is it, like, Is Google going to do anything. Yeah.

951
01:18:29.460 –> 01:18:30.540
Jeff Louella: On that one or

952
01:18:31.050 –> 01:18:39.090
Jeff Louella: Are they gonna do anything for if you are. I don’t know, looking here like movies make sense. Like there’s certain ones I know events.

953
01:18:39.420 –> 01:18:42.630
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, certain ones that I know that we need to to be

954
01:18:43.770 –> 01:18:59.400
Jeff Louella: You know ingested into Google properly and kind of displayed in their stuff that there’s ones that we need. But then there are a whole bunch out there like I know bread crumbs, give, give me good bread crumbs. I know that you know there’s tools out there.

955
01:18:59.430 –> 01:18:59.790
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

956
01:18:59.940 –> 01:19:00.750
Jeff Louella: A whole bunch that are

957
01:19:01.230 –> 01:19:13.020
Jeff Louella: No clue on local like I usually don’t recommend it really easy depending again on vertical insight, like there’s a there’s a handful that I recommend and then either are so many more.

958
01:19:13.740 –> 01:19:25.320
Jeff Louella: And is it like eventually Google is going to get around to these and they’re eventually going to be put in there. Are we ahead of the game are we wasting our time like and Jake is you’re saying, You’re right, like there are up.

959
01:19:25.500 –> 01:19:26.010
Jeff Louella: Even if

960
01:19:26.070 –> 01:19:29.490
Jeff Louella: We have a finite amount of time to know results.

961
01:19:30.090 –> 01:19:31.380
Jeff Louella: And thinking for like

962
01:19:31.800 –> 01:19:33.930
Jeff Louella: Four years down the road is not one of them right now.

963
01:19:34.950 –> 01:19:35.250
Jeff Louella: And

964
01:19:35.880 –> 01:19:36.930
Angela Bergmann: I’m hoping that

965
01:19:37.320 –> 01:19:45.870
Jeff Louella: Structured data helps other things too, right, like so right now we have things like open graph that like when you put it on your site and some post on to

966
01:19:46.230 –> 01:19:57.270
Jeff Louella: Your Pinterest or Facebook, it pulls that information in. From there, you know, Twitter has their Twitter cards and stuff but like I think structured data can feed other things like your calendar, because you have an event.

967
01:19:57.690 –> 01:19:59.280
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, your calendar should integrate with

968
01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.180
Jeff Louella: Schema to pull those events into your calendar and things like that. Yep scheme is

969
01:20:03.210 –> 01:20:04.350
Angela Bergmann: Great that way, but

970
01:20:04.380 –> 01:20:08.850
Jeff Louella: I don’t see like Microsoft Outlook using them yet.

971
01:20:08.880 –> 01:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: Right, so it’s we do it as SEOs

972
01:20:10.830 –> 01:20:11.580
Angela Bergmann: For SEO.

973
01:20:12.060 –> 01:20:26.190
Jeff Louella: And I feel like there’s such a big potential for every other type of app out there that needs to be data. I think on my website, which is sad. These days, I think of it as like a feed that I’m feeding Google, um, you know, if you think

974
01:20:26.220 –> 01:20:26.910
Jeff Louella: About it as like

975
01:20:27.090 –> 01:20:28.110
Jeff Louella: Here’s my XML feed.

976
01:20:28.110 –> 01:20:32.550
Jeff Louella: Here’s my content for years, all these different fields. And then let’s get it to make it pretty for customers.

977
01:20:33.540 –> 01:20:49.110
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of how I think and things, but not everybody does, of course, but I would love for you know like music playlist schema to be able to be ingested by my iTunes app, but it’s not there right now. Like it’s it’s really just

978
01:20:49.110 –> 01:20:50.100
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, just

979
01:20:52.230 –> 01:21:05.340
Angela Bergmann: Like the only ones that I really focus on is like Product Listing blog FAQ. Um, we’re doing a lot of with the medical related schema.

980
01:21:06.570 –> 01:21:09.420
Angela Bergmann: Just because that’s huge in search, obviously.

981
01:21:10.830 –> 01:21:11.490
Angela Bergmann: And then

982
01:21:14.070 –> 01:21:24.660
Angela Bergmann: Organizational schema like by default we essentially load organizational schema for every client. And that’s really and then it’s like, based on the client kind of where we go from there. So,

983
01:21:24.870 –> 01:21:30.360
Angela Bergmann: I always tell clients because they’ll ask about that. How do I get position zero. I’m like, well, you have to have good content first

984
01:21:33.300 –> 01:21:34.200
Jacob Stoops: Ever had

985
01:21:34.650 –> 01:21:53.970
Jacob Stoops: Any instances where you recommended a particular I’m going to say product schema, for example, and a client was apprehensive about some of the features of their product or offering showing up in search results for a consumer to see

986
01:21:59.430 –> 01:22:00.930
That I haven’t yet.

987
01:22:02.580 –> 01:22:03.120
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

988
01:22:03.210 –> 01:22:05.910
Jacob Stoops: I have a, I have a story where I

989
01:22:07.650 –> 01:22:21.600
Jacob Stoops: had a client who is I guess what I would call up they make a premium product. So it’s like the within what they do. It’s like the Cadillac, not the Honda version.

990
01:22:21.630 –> 01:22:23.460
Angela Bergmann: Of a product and

991
01:22:23.640 –> 01:22:33.810
Jacob Stoops: They make a really great product, but we were working to implement product schema. And one of the things that’s a huge component of that is, price, price and availability and

992
01:22:36.780 –> 01:22:39.480
Angela Bergmann: They did not want to expose price in

993
01:22:41.220 –> 01:22:42.300
Jacob Stoops: Right, yeah.

994
01:22:42.690 –> 01:22:43.890
Angela Bergmann: Their price is

995
01:22:43.920 –> 01:22:53.490
Jacob Stoops: A little bit higher. And I thought that that was an interesting position to take, given that a consumer is going to figure it out once they click

996
01:22:54.180 –> 01:22:55.230
Angela Bergmann: And get to the site.

997
01:22:55.260 –> 01:23:04.320
Jacob Stoops: But when I think about it from their perspective. Well, the consumer sees that price they may never click on it in the first place.

998
01:23:04.380 –> 01:23:11.220
Angela Bergmann: And they’re not going to understand the context is they’re not going to understand the context, they’re just going to see this much more expensive thing.

999
01:23:11.220 –> 01:23:12.720
Angela Bergmann: Especially if other sites.

1000
01:23:12.930 –> 01:23:15.930
Jacob Stoops: In the competitive set are using that schema and

1001
01:23:15.930 –> 01:23:22.830
Angela Bergmann: showing their price. Oh, although I think the argument could be made for a client like that that

1002
01:23:24.570 –> 01:23:26.430
Angela Bergmann: I’m more scared when there’s no price.

1003
01:23:27.600 –> 01:23:28.080
Angela Bergmann: Right.

1004
01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:32.070
Jacob Stoops: What right, and like, okay, if I’m a consumer and

1005
01:23:32.100 –> 01:23:33.540
Jacob Stoops: I look at that and I’m

1006
01:23:33.960 –> 01:23:35.520
Jacob Stoops: Looking for that particular

1007
01:23:35.520 –> 01:23:41.100
Jacob Stoops: PRODUCT, AND I’M AFRAID OF THE PRICE my really the right type of consumer for you. Anyways, is

1008
01:23:41.160 –> 01:23:41.970
Angela Bergmann: One. Yeah.

1009
01:23:42.600 –> 01:23:43.530
Jacob Stoops: And I’ve seen

1010
01:23:43.830 –> 01:23:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Not what this schema, necessarily, but with I’ve seen with review schema, the one of the few times I’ve been able, and this was in the past when there just wasn’t a lot of data.

1011
01:23:57.090 –> 01:24:01.710
Jacob Stoops: YOU WOULD THERE WASN’T THE NICE Google Search Console data that there is now where

1012
01:24:02.940 –> 01:24:10.530
Jacob Stoops: We had star ratings and there was a time when because they worked with a specific vendor bizarre voice.

1013
01:24:11.790 –> 01:24:12.330
Jacob Stoops: Who I hate

1014
01:24:13.530 –> 01:24:14.940
Jacob Stoops: They worked with that vendor.

1015
01:24:14.940 –> 01:24:16.140
Jacob Stoops: And their

1016
01:24:16.170 –> 01:24:17.250
Jacob Stoops: star ratings.

1017
01:24:17.970 –> 01:24:21.720
Jacob Stoops: Magically dropped off because their schema was wrong and then

1018
01:24:22.470 –> 01:24:35.340
Jacob Stoops: Once we worked with bizarre voice to get that fixed the star ratings came back and we because we had that nice apples to apples comparison were able to get a very clean.

1019
01:24:35.820 –> 01:24:50.070
Jacob Stoops: Before, and after. And were able to get a very clean incremental click through rate gain based on just the presence of star ratings in in search results, and it was substantial and for that brand in

1020
01:24:50.070 –> 01:24:50.820
Angela Bergmann: Particular

1021
01:24:51.210 –> 01:24:52.530
Jacob Stoops: There are massive worldwide.

1022
01:24:52.530 –> 01:25:10.830
Jacob Stoops: Brand. So an increasing click through rate of 1% for them met hundreds of thousands of more visitors just by having star ratings and that’s the argument that I always try to use with with clients in terms of things that are going to trigger rich snippets in search results is like hey

1023
01:25:12.210 –> 01:25:19.830
Jacob Stoops: It’s highly likely that more people are going to click on your, your page as a result of this, this feature, but

1024
01:25:19.920 –> 01:25:20.250
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1025
01:25:20.640 –> 01:25:22.020
Jacob Stoops: On the business side they’re, you know,

1026
01:25:22.020 –> 01:25:31.110
Jacob Stoops: They’re definitely thinking of their business and they’re trying to they’re there, they were taking the opposite stance that if people see our price, which is a Cadillac price.

1027
01:25:32.370 –> 01:25:39.750
Jacob Stoops: Maybe there’ll be scared away. So that was an interesting, interesting little tidbit that I’ve that I’ve been through before it was

1028
01:25:40.770 –> 01:25:43.110
Jacob Stoops: Interesting. I’ll just say, I’ll leave it at that.

1029
01:25:47.640 –> 01:25:49.590
Jeff Louella: DOESN’T SURPRISE either and

1030
01:25:49.710 –> 01:25:51.210
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s, it’s

1031
01:25:51.840 –> 01:25:59.760
Jeff Louella: Not because they don’t want to. It’s because they also have half their businesses are franchise and the franchisees

1032
01:26:00.450 –> 01:26:01.710
Angela Bergmann: Price. Ooh.

1033
01:26:02.340 –> 01:26:05.220
Jeff Louella: And even though it’s mostly the same there are

1034
01:26:05.400 –> 01:26:06.780
Jeff Louella: Outliers, where if

1035
01:26:06.900 –> 01:26:25.440
Jeff Louella: That same business has a store in Alaska. It takes the they sell it for more expensive because you have to ship to Alaska to have it in their store. And so they charge maybe $1 more and they don’t you know when people going in the store saying like your website says this price.

1036
01:26:26.610 –> 01:26:33.090
Jeff Louella: For this price. So the only way to get prices is when you get to the website is to select your local store and then you get that local stores pricing.

1037
01:26:34.380 –> 01:26:39.720
Jeff Louella: But Google does not have a local store and or or if they did, it would always be

1038
01:26:39.990 –> 01:26:54.930
Jeff Louella: The pricing and that’s one of those where they can’t do it. And I feel sometimes I I’m fighting a battle with, you know, one hand tied behind my back because matter all the arguments I have like they’re like, we have to look out for our franchisees

1039
01:26:55.980 –> 01:27:03.450
Jeff Louella: So it’s, it’s an interesting battle there. So we try to do other things, of course, but like we just give the highest price, then, and then they were saying they don’t want to do that either.

1040
01:27:04.200 –> 01:27:07.470
Angela Bergmann: Well, people are surprised when it’s lower on the website.

1041
01:27:07.830 –> 01:27:09.150
Jeff Louella: When it’s cheaper.

1042
01:27:10.620 –> 01:27:11.040
Angela Bergmann: But they

1043
01:27:11.070 –> 01:27:14.940
Jeff Louella: They have that fear, then no one would come to the site, then if they knew it was more money than

1044
01:27:15.390 –> 01:27:16.260
Jacob Stoops: What I’m

1045
01:27:17.460 –> 01:27:20.070
Jacob Stoops: What do you guys think is the future of structured data.

1046
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:40.440
Angela Bergmann: I think rejected point out, like the tada further time. Yeah. So having it not just be Information Center. Google is being able to leverage that in other ways at a calendar invite

1047
01:27:40.950 –> 01:27:56.370
Angela Bergmann: You know load something add something to an app like I think further leveraging of it because it’s structured data format it in a way that makes it easy to process into things. So how can we use that better.

1048
01:27:57.900 –> 01:27:58.110
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1049
01:27:58.260 –> 01:27:59.340
Jeff Louella: I agree. That’s where I

1050
01:27:59.340 –> 01:28:01.170
Jeff Louella: Think, and I see

1051
01:28:01.230 –> 01:28:06.960
Jeff Louella: You know, I know, wants to schema.org there’s a million like a million, but they keep growing the

1052
01:28:07.350 –> 01:28:08.340
Jeff Louella: Other the other does it

1053
01:28:08.700 –> 01:28:10.080
Jeff Louella: Because everything right, it’s

1054
01:28:10.200 –> 01:28:15.660
Jeff Louella: Gonna look at a coffee Cal Poly. We might have coffee cup schema. One day when there’s this different sub levels because you can

1055
01:28:15.660 –> 01:28:16.560
Jeff Louella: Keep adding like

1056
01:28:16.920 –> 01:28:19.590
Jeff Louella: You start off with a thing. And then we break that down and we break that

1057
01:28:19.590 –> 01:28:20.190
Jeff Louella: Down and

1058
01:28:20.220 –> 01:28:20.550
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1059
01:28:21.480 –> 01:28:22.920
Jeff Louella: To the point where we can’t

1060
01:28:23.400 –> 01:28:29.160
Jeff Louella: Can we all we can meet over structured data, probably, but at the same time.

1061
01:28:29.250 –> 01:28:30.570
Angela Bergmann: It’s structure, I think.

1062
01:28:31.140 –> 01:28:44.250
Jeff Louella: The goal of structured data is off of the web also so or not. So often the web, but off of like your web page and into apps and things like that were made, just like sharing easy. I kind of think of it as like

1063
01:28:44.970 –> 01:28:53.460
Jeff Louella: Elon Musk open sourced the electrical system for Tesla because he knows that if there’s 17 different plugins to plug in

1064
01:28:54.120 –> 01:29:07.890
Jeff Louella: That know like if I had a Ford electric car, you had a Chevy and then someone wasn’t a Tesla, we could interchange our electrical plugs, there would be no electric cars will not take off because everyone is the same gas tank.

1065
01:29:07.920 –> 01:29:09.090
Right, so there are

1066
01:29:10.410 –> 01:29:16.740
Jeff Louella: You know the structure to that that and reason why there’s a certain sizes and components to it so

1067
01:29:17.040 –> 01:29:22.710
Jeff Louella: If I have an app, it’d be awesome to be able to, like, I know my app can interface with your app, because we use similar structures in our data.

1068
01:29:23.010 –> 01:29:33.720
Jeff Louella: I can send you my map results. I can switch between being and someone else because and Google Maps, because they use the same structure in a structured data, I think.

1069
01:29:34.140 –> 01:29:36.450
Angela Bergmann: That helps machine, talk to the machine.

1070
01:29:36.960 –> 01:29:41.190
Jeff Louella: And at the end of the day, it’s you know, it’s just trying to figure it out and makes everything more

1071
01:29:41.760 –> 01:29:45.420
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the way I hope it goes, because I

1072
01:29:45.420 –> 01:29:55.110
Jeff Louella: Really feel as kind of a nerd who like to develop and he likes to interface with other systems. I don’t want to have to have an Excel document in between and

1073
01:29:55.140 –> 01:29:56.640
Jeff Louella: Transform all my data.

1074
01:29:56.970 –> 01:29:58.290
Jeff Louella: You know, and to then

1075
01:29:58.350 –> 01:30:14.280
Jeff Louella: Push it off to somewhere else, which I do a lot of my reporting now. But, you know, I’d love to be able to have, like, you know what is in Google Analytics, right, like a session in Adobe analytics is not what especially means in Google Analytics or a user. And there’s all these different

1076
01:30:14.280 –> 01:30:14.760
Angela Bergmann: Terms.

1077
01:30:15.030 –> 01:30:22.260
Jeff Louella: Of having like a structure between them all would actually be awesome, because then we can compare apples to apples and not apples to bananas, let’s let’s

1078
01:30:23.760 –> 01:30:26.250
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela, where can people find you.

1079
01:30:29.370 –> 01:30:29.970
Angela Bergmann: Twitter.

1080
01:30:31.920 –> 01:30:33.390
Angela Bergmann: Twitter. I’m at Red kitten.

1081
01:30:34.680 –> 01:30:37.530
Angela Bergmann: That’s probably the best place to find me.

1082
01:30:38.070 –> 01:30:40.350
Angela Bergmann: That is a great handle. Where does that handle come

1083
01:30:40.350 –> 01:30:40.680
From

1084
01:30:41.850 –> 01:30:51.600
Angela Bergmann: Um, that was actually my original like one of my original domain was red kittens on and Yun was where I was blogging and it just kind of stuck.

1085
01:30:53.430 –> 01:30:59.010
Angela Bergmann: I even use it like in World of Warcraft. So that’s my my card plate is red pitney

1086
01:31:01.320 –> 01:31:03.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, mine’s just Jacob stoops.com I guess I need to

1087
01:31:03.750 –> 01:31:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Be or Jacob stoops just as Jacob stoops I guess I just in years. Jeff is just at Jeff, Luella I guess we need to get more creative.

1088
01:31:11.340 –> 01:31:17.880
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a time in my life where I had like fun handles, and then I became like a ship poster.

1089
01:31:19.470 –> 01:31:27.780
Jeff Louella: Looks like you know if I use my real name. It really makes me think about that. I’m going to post because when I didn’t have my real name on there like starting flame wars.

1090
01:31:28.110 –> 01:31:28.590
So,

1091
01:31:30.450 –> 01:31:32.190
Jeff Louella: Like way happier using my real name.

1092
01:31:32.250 –> 01:31:35.280
Jacob Stoops: Next episode is just all about Jeff’s burner accounts.

1093
01:31:37.920 –> 01:31:44.880
Angela Bergmann: My Twitter does have my real name on it though. So I don’t know, getting away. Yeah, there is no anyways.

1094
01:31:44.970 –> 01:31:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Um, thank you so much for for coming on. We really. We really appreciate it and go browns.

1095
01:31:53.430 –> 01:31:54.540
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, go, go.

1096
01:31:55.680 –> 01:31:56.460
Angela Bergmann: Bye everybody.

#30: Alicia “AK” Anderson

Episode Summary

Today we talk with Alicia “AK” Anderson, former Associate Director of SEO at WebMD, former head of SEO at Hipcamp, and currently a freelance SEO.

We discuss:

  • Her path to SEO
  • Her pursuit of a PHD in mythological studies
  • SEO news including page speed
  • Google’s acquisition of Fitbit
  • The importance of SEO education
  • What makes a good SEO teacher

And much more.

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:01.260 –> 00:00:15.540
Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are back for the 30th episode of the page to podcast we somehow have managed to stumble our way to 30 episodes. I am here with Jeff.

2
00:00:16.410 –> 00:00:17.039
Louella.

3
00:00:17.340 –> 00:00:29.310
Who we forgot to introduce last time. And I want to make that mistake again. And we are also here with Alicia AK Anderson. How you doing, Alicia.

4
00:00:29.640 –> 00:00:30.720
doing really well.

5
00:00:31.590 –> 00:00:48.180
And Alicia is right now she’s a contractor, but she’s a former head of SEO at hip camp as well as an Associate Director of Web MD. So a lot of really, really amazing experience coming from from Alicia side.

6
00:00:50.430 –> 00:00:51.750
Thank you for having me today.

7
00:00:52.080 –> 00:01:07.560
You’re welcome. So I here by reading your Twitter bio that you are a storyteller. So tell me a story, tell me a story. How did you get into SEO. Tell me about yourself. Let the listeners know who are you

8
00:01:08.700 –> 00:01:14.730
So I’m in the early to mid, mid 2000s.

9
00:01:15.870 –> 00:01:23.550
I was working for both south, which if you don’t live in the South. It was originally take it was taken over by at AMP t

10
00:01:25.350 –> 00:01:26.790
And in that time period.

11
00:01:28.020 –> 00:01:40.890
I was a billing manager and I was doing data analysis sequel database queries and dealing with data at a very minute dollars and cents level to the point where the

12
00:01:41.370 –> 00:02:05.310
Big project I did was how to round or truncate your minutes into dollars it’s. It was ridiculous. Lee detailed um I made the career decision that I wanted to work more in Word and Excel. I said, I want to write. I want to do something that’s creative, I’m tired of all this data, which is

13
00:02:08.010 –> 00:02:09.510
Because I then ended up in SEO.

14
00:02:11.130 –> 00:02:33.000
But where I ended up going with that urge was this was in the the the era of the bygone days of pre Panda of content firms and you could write content on the internet and make like a pittance for any number of sites and it was how I went about gaining work experience in SEO.

15
00:02:34.230 –> 00:02:39.390
Because what I was able to do was create web content and then track how it performed

16
00:02:40.170 –> 00:02:48.030
And one of the specific sites actually had SEO training and SEO experts working for them in like the forums and stuff like that.

17
00:02:48.480 –> 00:03:06.600
And they actually taught us how to do keyword research how to track our progress, how to use keyword information for content strategy like basic keyword information that I’m in 2007 was kind of avant garde and I discovered this whole realm of SEO as a job.

18
00:03:08.610 –> 00:03:18.780
At that time, the at AMP T takeover happened at both south, which is essentially the Jetsons taking over the Flint, or the Flintstones taking over the Jetsons is is how I would put that

19
00:03:19.920 –> 00:03:23.100
I did not want to go to the Stone Age and so

20
00:03:24.120 –> 00:03:35.190
I took a package I left. And with that extra money I freelanced and basically worked my way as a web copywriter into learning SEO from agencies.

21
00:03:37.170 –> 00:03:52.320
And then I started working in house from there. I’ve been working in house for. So I’ve been in SEO for 12 years going on 13 years which I’ve seen everything from hummingbird to like I’ve seen all the big updates.

22
00:03:53.340 –> 00:04:06.660
Which is kind of insane. And I actually focused on global SEO really early in my career, which is how I ended up at Web MD, because they needed somebody who understood global SEO for their UK Cobra and

23
00:04:07.740 –> 00:04:12.600
I was at weapon D for six years, and

24
00:04:14.550 –> 00:04:23.430
Then I actually got a chronic illness and couldn’t handle the stress and couldn’t handle like the massive amount of work that was

25
00:04:24.840 –> 00:04:36.210
That was happening there. And so I scaled back and I took on the job at hip camp as their head of SEO for a year and a half, as a remote job, which was fantastic. And it was exactly what I needed.

26
00:04:37.560 –> 00:04:43.530
At the same time, because I don’t know how to like set limits. I, I also started grad school.

27
00:04:44.370 –> 00:04:58.170
And so I was doing grad school and hip camp for a couple of years, and now I’m contracting and doing grad school. At the same time, I’ve earned my masters. I’m now in the PhD program again because I don’t know how to say slow down.

28
00:05:00.540 –> 00:05:03.480
And yeah, I’m contracting and

29
00:05:04.530 –> 00:05:11.910
Enjoying it I’m I have about a dozen clients right now. Some through an agency that I work with, and some through personal contacts.

30
00:05:13.170 –> 00:05:16.020
And it’s been really, really interesting.

31
00:05:17.790 –> 00:05:34.830
We were talking earlier via email about my passions and what I found is that in the last three or four years or so, I’ve really found a passion for training and teaching SEO and using training and teaching to get buy in with stakeholders and to

32
00:05:36.240 –> 00:05:41.610
You know, create SEO as part of the DNA of a bit of a business, instead of just kind of an afterthought.

33
00:05:44.220 –> 00:05:49.560
So let me ask you something. And I’ve got a lot of there’s a lot there. The

34
00:05:50.970 –> 00:05:57.360
Question that I have, um, I do. First one to ask about mythological studies.

35
00:05:58.800 –> 00:06:07.590
You’re, you’re getting a PhD in mythological studies. So for those people, myself included, that don’t know what that means, explain it to us.

36
00:06:08.310 –> 00:06:14.730
So, um, my program is the is of the lineage, the academic lineage of Joseph Campbell.

37
00:06:15.780 –> 00:06:23.370
Um, which is a concept of comparative mythology cross cultural comparisons of mythologies, as well as

38
00:06:24.480 –> 00:06:31.950
Kind of the underpinnings of what makes this culture way over here and that culture way over there have very similar myths.

39
00:06:32.460 –> 00:06:42.540
And understanding did the myth just travel and they’re telling the same myth or did it arise separately, and this is a part of the human condition and a part of our psychology

40
00:06:43.950 –> 00:06:51.000
So that’s essentially what mythological studies is it’s a global cross cultural psychological look at

41
00:06:52.170 –> 00:06:52.950
At myth.

42
00:06:54.180 –> 00:07:03.930
So I find it fascinating that in SEO is studying myths and mythological logical stuff. Um,

43
00:07:04.980 –> 00:07:09.000
I guess I have to ask, what’s the biggest SEO myth, you’ve come across

44
00:07:11.790 –> 00:07:12.420
Um,

45
00:07:13.980 –> 00:07:27.600
Biggest SEO Miss I’ve come across. Honestly, I have an entire shelf that is nothing about but that crossover like technology as symptom and dream is the book I’m staring at an internet dreams, um,

46
00:07:28.770 –> 00:07:29.910
I think that

47
00:07:31.230 –> 00:07:42.720
As Google is attempting to meet human needs by using AI and an algorithmic answers, they’re attempting to

48
00:07:45.270 –> 00:07:57.870
mimic human behavior and understand and breakdown human behavior online. And one of the myths that I think is happening is that the whole like

49
00:07:59.190 –> 00:08:10.500
You know, SEO and UX side where people are saying, um, you know, if you solve for you actual software SEO hundred percent of the time, I believe that that’s

50
00:08:12.600 –> 00:08:29.220
That’s like kind of my answer of if it comes down to doing this for the user doing this for us to do it for the user. But at the same time, I feel like Google is not necessarily all the way there yet. And sometimes you really do have to spoon feed the Googlebot just a little bit.

51
00:08:30.570 –> 00:08:34.410
Because solving for you. X 100% still isn’t going to get you there.

52
00:08:35.520 –> 00:08:42.150
At the same time, I do think that Google is really trying to emulate the human response. And so isn’t

53
00:08:44.220 –> 00:08:56.370
It doesn’t make sense to speak to it as if it’s a robot either. So it’s like you’re talking with, you know, an Android or data from Star Trek The Next Generation or something that has like somewhere in the middle.

54
00:08:57.150 –> 00:09:01.080
Yeah, I think this, it’s, it’s interesting. We

55
00:09:02.100 –> 00:09:15.720
Live in an interesting time in space within within SEO. Right now we are on one side. Things are getting really, really advanced in terms of Google and other search engines, but mostly Google

56
00:09:16.470 –> 00:09:30.540
Their use of AI and their ability to render websites to understand the difference between very similar similar queries. And then on the other side we’ve got

57
00:09:32.100 –> 00:09:50.910
Sites that I get. I don’t know. Jeff, you tell you tell me, and Alicia. You tell me. Like I feel like a lot of the stuff I run up against when I’m helping clients is still incredibly, incredibly, incredibly basic. Like we’re helping them like learn how to walk when

58
00:09:51.930 –> 00:10:09.570
Over here you know Google is, is, you know, very focused on to use an analogy I guess running. They’re focused on on running when there are many, many websites out there that are still just struggling to walk. And one of the things that I see very often is

59
00:10:10.740 –> 00:10:16.440
Things as simple as, like, your UX can be really, really great. And you can have a beautiful website.

60
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That consumers like but if you’re missing the content that people search for

61
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You don’t have a lot of chance to be successful, like your site can be technically, technically well optimized. I work

62
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With a client that is that is exactly this way. They’ve got a really good brand. A really technically well optimized site.

63
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But there. They have been missing some key content and until they’ve added that key content. They’ve been like we don’t we don’t get it. Why is an SEO quote unquote working well, sometimes in order to rank for something you have to have a page for it. I know, it’s crazy.

64
00:11:01.740 –> 00:11:02.310
But if you’re

65
00:11:02.610 –> 00:11:09.060
If you’re designing for customers most customers don’t like to read. I mean, if you

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If you’re looking for a research paper. Yes. But when you’re looking at a product. I think it’s like you want a couple points about it. And I think most of the time you’re probably reading reviews but

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But at the same time it’s it’s interesting because to design folks don’t like to put lots of words on the pages because again, people don’t be bogged down with all this content though Google needs it to read. So I think it is one of those

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Thought, I’m not gonna say a battle. It’s really becoming everyone get on the same page, like we have goals. We need to have traffic.

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These are some things that Google needs at the same time we have, you know, design needs right I again. If it was up to SEO is I think most of our websites will look like Wikipedia.

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Which is because it were like a great here’s a whole bunch of content. So we need to have that that balance there so

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Yeah, and I find with like B to C customers specifically right now. What I’m bumping up against is the, what is it,

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So many of the head terms the ranking is educational. It’s a what is query. It’s an informational query. And that’s where you want that Wikipedia page that is like

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A big long list of all the things you ever needed to know about this thing.

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And the issue is that most of these companies that are B to C are going that their decision makers and the people who are searching for them.

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Are people who already know what it is. And so to convince them that they need a, what is it page.

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In order to round out their content portfolio when their clients and customers and the people who are landing on their site already know what it is it that’s that balance that’s that, like, okay, but you kinda still need a, what is it page.

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Very high funnel low conversion stuff introduce her content. I like to call it, but not necessarily transactional

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Hi. Well, and that. And the thing is is that that’s not that’s not where their their their customer is um but it’s where the search traffic is so it’s a very

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It’s, it’s absolutely something I bumped into constantly

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Yeah, I see that type of content. And when I’m when I’m trying to sell it. I try to sell it obviously for the the

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That’s where the search traffic is. And the question I get is, Do I even want to rank for this. And for me, like, for the most part, the question is yes because you’re potentially

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You know, running exposing your brand to a lot of different consumers and maybe one or maybe two or maybe three of those consumers will later on down the line. Maybe not immediately.

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Turn into customers because they weren’t aware of your brand before and now they are because they’ve read that piece of content but part is everybody that gets that piece of content going to be a converter. No.

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I think that there’s a there’s definitely a brand element. There’s a marketing element to the brand there. The other element of that that I see and I see it even more now is

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Contextual ality we each site has an about notice it has a context. And what I find is that

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You have to have that. What is it, and you have to have that that established expertise in your field.

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For that contextual reality because ranking well for the, what is it, even if those visitors aren’t converting will help you rank well for the things that the, what is it is linking to

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Yeah, and so I find that contextual ality tends to be more of a play there as well. And a lot of those spaces, especially when it’s a really complicated thing.

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You know, we’re the experts in this 50 word saying, it’s like, Okay, well, we need a, what is it that

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I think this whole discussion really comprises and I hate this word, but the at expertise authority trust. Yeah, I think that building that full portfolio is all about establishing UT which I really hate that I’m using a buzzword but i but i am i’m

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Going to go back. I do want to go back because I we got way down in the weeds and that’s cool. I love getting in the weeds, like my favorite thing to do.

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But you mentioned stress and I think on the agency side like it’s a big giant ball of stress. Stress all the time. Especially now in the holiday in the holiday season.

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Um, I also find it ironic that you were working at Web MD, when you were having this stress in the in the in the in kind of the medical condition that you

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That you could that you mentioned. So I guess. Talk to me about the process of what was working at Web MD, like, and I’m just also thinking about other people that might be going through this. How did that stress kind of come up for you and how did you deal with it.

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The stress was absolutely um

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You know, a joint a joint effort in terms of my own inability to set limits and

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The demands of the company.

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You know, I work, I work a good bet on the agency side right now and I find the stress levels, very different.

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I find the stress the words very different

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On the in house side. What I find it’s funny you said the irony about working at Web MD and that that I was having health problems because of it.

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In psychological terms every basically the concept is every time you invoke one thing you also invoke its opposite. So Web MD invokes health and also invokes ill health and and i think that that’s that’s part of what happens in the office culture.

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You have to really have super strong boundaries and really set limits in any in office environment. I’ve worked in so many corporations, where the the corporation will eat you alive if you let it

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And and i think that’s true of any employer these days with, you know, the way that our world works.

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And I believe that part of it is about is about that setting of limits.

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One of the issues that I bumped into was adequate resource planning.

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Because I was

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The, the cycle of hiring help is so long. It’s such a long ramp and Jeff knows this. The Atlanta market is we’ve got kind of a weird mix of people who have SEO experience. And so getting the right person to hire in the Atlanta market is is tricky as well.

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So that long rep of resource getting the right person in often happens, eight months after the project started.

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And then you’ve got to train them and they have a six month ramp up and now the project is in full swing. And you’re like, good, allow me to overwhelm you.

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And I think that that honestly my own you know that just the resource planning of understanding where the business was going so quickly and then having that kind of lead time for resource planning was a big part of it.

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Another big part of it for me specifically was there’s a battle. I’m especially with a publicly traded company Wendy was taken over and is now privately owned

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In since I left, but at the time it was it was beholden to the quarterly shareholder reviews and it was a publicly traded company and I find with publicly traded companies that that quarterly shareholder review. We’ve gotta show what we’re doing to show our value and show our growth.

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Every single time is actually incredibly toxic. Um, the, the stock, the stock shareholder kind of market of of growth for growth’s sake.

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Always be growing is is not sustainable.

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That’s why you have mergers and acquisitions. That’s why you have like all of these other things. And I feel like it’s cancerous.

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Growth for growth’s sake, without really carefully growing where you want to grow is is the definition of cancer, um, which again haha Web MD.

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Funny side note, just so you know.

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While I was there.

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They. It was a I’m going to say this publicly and I’m far enough gone. They can’t hurt me. Um,

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It was a massive PR fail on their behalf on their behalf, because they did not own the memes um they redid the symptom checker symptom checker 2.0 happened while I was there, and prior to symptom checker 2.0 the symptom checker when you plugged in your stuff with alpha, alpha baptized

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So cancer came above everything because it was at the top of the freaking alphabet.

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Now it’s done by prevalence and now you’re can get common cold and flu above cancer because it’s done by prevalence

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And so they recreated symptom checker to make it so that cancer wasn’t at the top of everything. And this is like seven years ago and they never like owned it and said, hey, you’re not gonna have cancer anymore.

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They never like played with it and said, this is what we can do, like we sometimes use checker 2.0 it’s not alphabetical anymore. Like for me as as like an internet marketer. I’m like, oh, that’s such a loss like it’s such a waste to not just own the funny and go with it.

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But anyway, that

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The, the growth for growth’s sake model is really, really hard for any SEO team.

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Because first of all, SEO takes time. A lot of our efforts. It’s like, yeah, you’ll see that effort in three quarters. So what have you been doing this month. Well, what I did a year ago or what so and so screwed up two years ago.

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So you see that growth pattern for for those traded companies can be the source of so much stress when it’s unrealistic.

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And then it comes down to messaging and it comes down to. Can your C suite hear those messages. Can you adjust what you’re saying, how do you talk about those things like that that becomes a whole nother another bollocks. I’m

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Getting out of that pattern for me was really, really important in terms of stress, just getting out of the not having enough help in the right time.

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And getting out of the pattern of the growth for growth’s sake was really, really important. Um, I, I used to prefer in house because I liked seeing the long term results and right now I’m really enjoying agency, because I can go here’s all of the things that you need to fix.

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And I don’t have to wait for that. But we’re not growing every quarter.

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Which is actually quite a relief, honestly.

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Yeah, I mean, it can be a relief I I do sometimes want to see things all the way through to the end and on the agency side if the clients don’t necessarily see that growth or at least are aligned with your vision of when the growth will happen.

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Have plenty of clients that have been like

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You know, cut your contract because we haven’t seen the growth. We wanted to see. So like stressful on the agency side but

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If you’re aligned with the client and and i think i think is the best side of things in the agency world just because

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When you get to do a whole bunch of different like you get problems thrown at you all the time and you get to, you know, try to solve those problems, which is great.

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But sometimes I do feel like I walk on eggshells a lot with clients because one. You don’t want to call someone else’s baby ugly.

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Know, even if they’re paying you for it. And I’ve worked at some large agencies where we made the ugly baby and and I gotta then tell them that our team. We made the ugly baby.

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It is interesting that in that approach to so

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You guys are touching on kind of an interesting point that I feel like we do with all the time. So, like, I’m just going to give a little bit of kind of a case in point. So I’ve got two clients, one of which

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I don’t want to give away too much information, but I’ll say client a we’ve been working with for a while, often on by their choice and their traffic because of our recommendations is growing wildly, but because they they

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Don’t even know exactly what like can’t see it, like they can see their traffic growing wildly, but I think that there’s

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A belief that maybe it wasn’t due to us or our recommendations or all of that. So there’s that.

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On one side, and on the other side. There’s another client where we’ve had a very successful year and we’ve overcome a lot of challenges and their team is very, very small.

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But we’ve made progress, but it’s not yet the type of progress that has produced tangible results from a traffic standpoint, it’s a lot of

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Coming out of nowhere and getting right on the cusp of doing great things because you were nowhere before and the next phase is going to be moving from being on the cusp to

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Pushing it into a position where the tangible results will start to show it’s a lot of stuff happening below the surface.

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And I have a great relationship with that client and like there’s no doubt that they’re going to continue to work with us and it’s just the juxtaposition client a

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Doesn’t really want to work with us and they’re getting great results client be results aren’t there yet loves working with us. We have a great relationship. And it’s just like

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This world in that we live in is is insane. And sometimes the the thing that you think should be true is not always true. And it leaves me kind of with the question, how do you

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Best come in this deviates from the stress question, but how do you put in this actually does stress me out and keep me up at night. How do you do a good job of messaging.

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The real story of what’s actually going on when the C suite only looks at vanity metrics and sometimes doesn’t even look at that.

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Or when the C suite doesn’t know the full story and is coming to you with whatever they believe to be the truth, whether it is or not, like, how do you deal with that. How do you get them to see the light. How do you build that build that dam and build that relationship.

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Um,

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So one thing that just that is a little bit tan gentle about your question or the about your what you were saying is that the client that you’ve got that you’ve got that great relationship that is not showing results yet.

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I have one like that, that I worked with for six months and what I do because this was my personal client, not an agency thing.

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Every six months I checked, I go back into all of their metrics and check everything and send them an update and go, this is what you’re working on. This is what you should do next, like, and I do it for free.

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You know, because they can hire me to help them with those action items but it allows me to, you know, a little bit selfishly, look at the data and go. Hi worked

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I get that little that little boost of dope. I mean, um, but also it’s a great way to to kind of resell to clients that do work well with you in that kind of agency world.

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In terms of getting C suite on board when they only look at vanity metrics.

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So,

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That’s a combination of two things. One is you give them the fucking vanity metrics.

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Um,

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And

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If you can get other stuff that really has to happen in order to give them those vanity metrics, great. Um, one of the things that I’ve spoken about on multiple occasions is translate your, your goals into their monopoly money.

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Like, do a currency conversion if their vanity metric is something you don’t care about, but you can currency convert your metric into there’s do it.

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And I say to do this. This is what I did across departments, I did this across clients, um,

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If this department really only cares about lead gen and you know this one specific form, then I am going to use approximations and percentages and ratios to say

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If you let me do this project. It’s going to give you five lead gen forums on this forum for every you know widget. We move or whatever, I’m

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Just kind of backing into those metrics that even if they’re a little nonsensical just using percentages to keep like getting there. Um, the other thing about the vanity metrics. I guy. I have a lot of clients that want to rank for kind of

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Ridiculous.

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keywords that are not that are important to their marketers, but our sales team, but are not important like they’ve got 50 searches a month or something like like less than that. And you’re like, really. Okay, let’s go spend all our time on that.

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And honestly, the way that I would do that is looking for those wind winds of, okay, we’re going to try to rank for this thing, they really want to rank for that is kind of ridiculous.

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And we’re going to simultaneously make these lesson learned worked over here where it actually is going to move the needle, um,

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Sometimes it is about education. Sometimes it is about teaching the C suite what’s going on. Um, I’ve done more than one high level to four slide long presentations that are. This is what’s happening here are the numbers. This is why I’m telling you this is what matters.

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Because sometimes it is your job to change the focus. Sometimes it is your job to educate and and that’s that’s super challenging. It’s super challenging to

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Take somebody that has the like my nudist amount of attention span and you’ve got their, their attention for like five minutes and you’ve got to go. What you think matters. Doesn’t matter. Here’s what matters in that five minutes. And that’s I’m

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Very, very, very difficult. And I think that’s where the, the difference between an SEO specialist and an SEO manager comes in.

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People with management skills and people who are at the management level are going to be able to drill down a bit more rapidly in that way.

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Yeah, I always say

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Finding the things to fix is it’s not the difficult part getting things implemented is the difficult part and the even more difficult part is proving your, your value when, in some cases it’s it’s not clear, or telling your story and I feel like

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Talking to executives and sea levels.

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Or VP of whatever higher ups leadership within, within a company is something that like

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I don’t feel like anyone starts off as a natural at doing doing that. I think it takes a while, and I find myself even kind of

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Deeper into the into the experience side of things like I’ve been doing this for a long time. And there are times when I still just

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Don’t know what I need to say to make them understand it. It almost becomes a bit of a psychological

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exercise where you have to play out different scenarios and put yourself in their shoes and try to predict what they want to hear from you. That will turn them in the way that you need them to be to be turning so

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My hack for that. Yeah, I was, uh, because I always I was known for writing emails that were way too long. I was known for writing these like novel emails and you guys are both laughing and I know that you you totally understand.

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Those

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Those like super, super long emails. So, I will write that email with all of the because this and here’s the data for that. And here’s this and here’s that and then I will write the TL Dr.

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And put that at the top like because we’re used to doing that right that’s like part of our world is doing the TL Dr. Right. Then I will take that entire email and save it to word

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And send the executive only the TL Dr.

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And that tends to be exactly what you needed to say and then often they’re like, do you have further data about blah, blah, blah. And you’re like, Yes, I do.

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Because you’ve already done all that homework.

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That’s great approach.

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So Jeff, I wanna, I want to put a pause on this and then I want to get back into kind of the teaching aspect, what’s in the news.

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Cool. So one of the big things.

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Will be okay. It’s one of the big things we have this week is Google. I mean, Google is really been focusing on Page Speed, right, so last week and probably the week before we talked about PHP going into Google Search Console.

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But now they’re actually looking to build badging into Chrome to let people know that sites are slower or faster than you know the average bear, I guess.

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So it’s, it’s interesting because, again, I’m always trying to push my clients to be faster. And this is another approach that Google is taking to say

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Hey, your sites aren’t fast enough. Now we’re going to alert the world just like to do with HTTPS and you’re not secure

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So again, another thing I can show my clients to say like, this is really serious. This time I know before it said it was serious. And then now like but you know nothing changed. Now that you know it.

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Really seriously and

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That was really serious because

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Now you’re going to get like a red X next year site or something that says that you’re slow so

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I really do think that PHP is important. And I’m kind of running a study now trying to look at a whole bunch of e commerce sites and where they are in page beads

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Those sometimes it’s hard to get those metrics. Right. So I hope that when Google get tell somebody that their site is slow that they actually get the right metrics there because

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I am noticing about out of 150 e comm retailers that I’m looking at there are about 20 of them that are giving me inconsistent data inside of Google page speed insights

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Using their API. Sometimes I’ll get 100 and I’m like, why is this like giving me 100 right now. And that’s because they got a page that was blank.

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And like, hey, we have no JavaScript this page must be fast. But then I rerun it. And then I get a 36 so I am just hoping that we get those metrics down before we actually start putting people on blast.

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I have a question for you guys about page speed. This is a actually something that’s come up multiple times.

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You know, the whole is it important, is it really important, is it really, really important. Now, however, no site. I’ve been on has cracked the nut of actually having a fast site that does all the things they want it to do.

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Um, my question for you guys is one of the things that I’ve been feeling for a while, is that it really depends on the competition.

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That it that benchmarking the Page Speed across the competition is more valuable if everybody in your competition is a 35 and you have a 40, you’re probably okay.

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Um, if everybody in your competition has a 75 and you have a 30 you need to pay attention to it. Right. Um, that’s been my approach. More recently, what do you guys think in terms of the fact that nobody’s going to have a perfect score.

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Right, so that’s actually part of the reason I’m kind of putting together this little study that I hope to have

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One, it’s holiday season. Everyone thinks about e commerce, but so many of my e commerce clients deal with kind of go that route. Right. I

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I run a report. And I’m like, you got a 45, you know, we can, we should be at least by the 80s and then I run it against their six competitors and they’re doing better than their six competitors, so

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And e commerce is also tough right because you have lots of images and if you know for we’re designing for customers. Customers don’t want 10 products on a page.

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You know, they want to have more because they don’t want to have to click keep clicking next. So it’s one of those where I think industry specific. I also think it’s his competition specific

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Though I have found a couple that were, you know, put one out there IKEA. They’re getting like close to 100 all around with their reports and I gotta dig a little bit deeper into them. Like, why are they doing that.

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But it’s if they seem to have really great scores. While some other ones like I was kind of laughing, but like dollar tree gets a one and it’s like $1 so so it’s kind of a it’s ironic there.

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But in general, like

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I think the industry somewhere in the middle right you have those outliers, but for the most part, everyone’s getting between a 40 and 60 or something like that, where no one’s crushing it. Um,

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But yeah, I think, again, as a consultant. We’re always like, we want to be the top of the bunch, where we get the benefits of it.

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Right before everyone put scheme on their website, you had that big benefit of getting some, you know, stars in your reviews.

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Now everyone’s doing it and Google’s cutting it back because they can’t have everybody have an enhanced listing right so

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It’s one of those things where I think getting ahead of it is one great for your customers, but you’re not even thinking about rankings thinking about like your customer experience.

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You know that it’s really great that way. But on top of that. Now it’s a ranking factor and Google’s really trying to

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Push that inside of the search, you know, this is one of the ways doing it by having it again. It’s just in Chromium right now, but they’re one of those things like once it gets pushed live. You’re just like could be put on blast. So watch out balladry

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I’ve been the thing I’ve dealt with and I’ve been like fighting this uphill battle for years and I don’t know how many more hints

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Google can possibly give to say that it is important. I mean, they’ve made it even a ranking factor, and now it’s obviously not a big ranking factor, but it’s a factor nonetheless.

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I just don’t know how many more bones, they can continue to throw before people decide

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Or finally come to the realization that it’s that it’s actually important and take it seriously of the thing that I even still, to this day, run into is just a high level of skepticism.

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And when you go to a client and say, Hey, your page is getting like a 40 on mobile page speed, they really look at me and it’s almost like a. So, what

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What does that really mean. Or where was that test from because everybody knows Google uses a lot of lab.

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In industry industry data. So like, you don’t get to specify like device type or location that you’re testing from like you can with a webpage test and even with that they’re, they’re still skeptical.

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So there’s for whatever reason a lot of skepticism. I will say that in the few times that I’ve been able to convince

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Clients that this is the right thing to do, it came down to money and putting the putting the money like very clearly on the table and showing them how much money they were losing by not improving. There’s any number of studies that talk about the effect of the

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Inverse relationship between load time and conversion rate in revenue, the higher your load time goes the worst of the worst your conversion rate is and the less revenue that you get in the door. And I remember like

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clear as day sitting in a meeting with a huge hospitality client at another agency in telling them, and even when I made these numbers up. I felt like

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These are ridiculous numbers. But then I realized like the scale know this could actually be this could actually be right.

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I told them, like, Hey, your conversion rate is here and this is how much revenue you get from that.

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I think by increasing your speed, your conversion rate could be here and should be here and this is how much revenue you would gain and it was in the realm of millions and they laughed me out of the room and didn’t take me seriously. And I was like I was so mad. Let’s stop serious

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But then they partnered with a

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vendor who specializes in speed and helping people fix speed because they finally started to think, maybe there’s something to this. And the vendor who does this all the time for a living.

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Actually said that estimate was actually low, it’s worth more. And finally, they started taking little old me seriously and a lot of other recommendations went through a lot of

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You know way easier. But it was it was nice vindication but for whatever reason, like I just don’t get it. People don’t take this seriously, it’s really hard. Don’t get me wrong, speed is really hard, really complex, but like, people don’t take it seriously and I don’t get why I

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Think that you just nailed it on the head, that it’s really hard. It’s resource allocation and you have. So going back to my hip camp days.

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We had an engineering team of, you know, between six and 10 engineers at any time focusing on any number of projects and to focus on Page Speed would take away focuses on

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You know, fixing the shopping cart or the mobile site or this part or that part or, you know, this new thing that we’re creating

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And that conversion into money, putting it in the in the monopoly money that they care about that conversion into the dollars and cents that they care about still isn’t enough.

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To warrant taking that engineers. Time to because the. The other thing is, is that the engineers are looking at, like they do all the low hanging fruit. Right.

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And then they look at the stuff that’s left

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And they’re like, that’s going to take weeks.

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And the person who’s running that team goes, I can’t have a person tied up for weeks on Page Speed when we don’t know what the ROI is and we don’t know what this is. And, and, like, how was that worth it and and then it just comes down to the ROI equations really

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Having the inverse relationship of conversions absolutely is a huge part of it. Also the bounce rate is a huge part of it. That’s part of what I use to talk about it.

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You know it, but it does often come down to not that they don’t take it seriously, but that they don’t

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That it’s not as serious enough to allocate the resources that it would take to fix it.

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Because it is so site wide it is so endemic. It’s not like you can just fix one page. It’s not like you can just like pull a couple of levers, these are these are like you’ve got a restructure your JavaScript have fun.

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Go over some basics.

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Ages and all of them have giant images.

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Here to have fun. Go fix them all.

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And there are some things you can do that are basic like giant images. I have no one client who continually

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In their main navigation. They have a drop down where they put a little image on the bottom of the drop down and it changes monthly

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And it’s, it’s always two or three megabytes in size, for some reason, right, and it’s on every single page throughout the whole site and once like I put a ticket into the ticketing system, we get a fixed next month designer uploads and other one. That’s it.

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So without training and processes.

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So so valuable.

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Exactly and education is awesome because a lot of times I’m personally dealing with so and so, who works in this department.

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Sometimes it’s the tech team sometime it’s the marketing team. Never. Is it the design and like design team. So it’s like one of those where and designers. Nobody wants to really

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be told what to do. I used to be a developer in SEO is used to come to me with

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Their list of keywords and title tags and I was like, get out, like, you know, I’m trying to solve the world here, you know, by coming up with new fancy ways Dakota site and

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Then, once I moved over to the SEO world. It’s like, oh, you know, I mean, that’s, again, things that we need to do, but there’s so much other things and

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I wrote like a 27 page document for my one client who kept on having those issues just about image optimization in general.

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And I kind of white labeled. It’s like, give it to any client, but at the same time. It’s like this is one thing we can do on our site which shouldn’t take any tech time. It’s just once we learn that process, we can update our images and we’ll save three seconds or whatever that would

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So this is

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I’m glad that there are services like cloud flare and cloud and airy. It’s another one that are beginning to take this out of the designer who doesn’t give

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A shit about page speed or anything. It’s just trying to do their job, which is designed a beautiful sight and a beautiful image, whatever it is.

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There are there are now tools that begin to automate that and I can’t wait for them to become more pervasive within the way people manage that pervasive probably not the right word, but to expand into into the reality of the way that more people manage sites.

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I think that automation and processes, a very big important part of that, however.

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One of the things that I learned was

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That empowering people to help you and to have them help you with your problem solving is probably the most effective thing you could do. So going back to Web MD, you know, it’s a site that is really dependent upon SEO traffic. And so our, our department had

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A little bit of clout and so I was able to kind of swing that very gently into providing an SEO one on one for

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Any new hire coming in the door, because basically the the office where I sat in Midtown Atlanta had about 200 300 people and every single one of those people touched SEO in some way, shape, or form they made my life, good or bad depending on their day.

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And I needed them to know that I needed them to know that they were doing SEO regardless of whether they knew it or not. And so I did a little, um,

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Top Hat And Tails gig for new hires every couple of weeks, I would, I would go in and do this hour. And essentially, the whole hour was where our jobs intersect where you’re doing SEO and I’m

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When to call me and hi I’m friendly. This is what I look like. Say hi to me in the break room. And I’m such an introvert. It was really, really funny that I knew, like the entire company because of this.

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So, um, the way that that shook out was that the managers of these teams would sit in on these on these classes and they would go, Oh, this is amazing. I want this for my entire my entire group.

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And then I would get invited back to do a lunch and learn for the engineering team that was SEO for engineers or a lunch and learn for the design team that was SEO for designers and then I’m in the room with the entire design team for an hour.

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And the, the being able to show them. Okay, file size. This is what the difference in file size does this is what the file type and the way you’re saving it does. Please do this, but this is what file image naming conventions matter.

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You know, and this is why this is what I keep asking you to do.

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This is how this actually integrates and works on the site. And then this is how you’re succeeding.

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The key to all of it was not just this is how you’re making my life difficult but also this is how you’re winning and something you can put in your performance report.

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And I became the go to person for everybody to go, what can I put in my performance report about image sizes and image search and

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You know the improvements in Page Speed and and like I literally had one of the engineers. Buy me a steak dinner because she was like

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You, you just completely got me my bonus because you gave me all the metrics that I had no access to otherwise because I don’t understand how nature works. And this was awesome. Thank you.

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And so that was actually like I became their source for those metrics and so I’d be like okay so image search. This is where your images are showing up in search results and show them the Search Console report.

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And let them see which images are kicking ass and show them the the searches and actually show them what the search results look like or the image carousels where those call outs were

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And suddenly, they’re like, they’re like, oh, this thing I’m doing is actually visible on Google and they can, like, go home and show their kids, you know,

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And believe it or not. They do. They go home and show their wives and husbands that this is what they’re doing, because they’re like, I learned something new today.

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And they get excited about it and then all of a sudden you have buy in, you have cooperation, you have, you have a teamwork that is cohesive

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And then you can say, hey, as far as process improvement goes, Can we, you know, make saving files, the smaller thing as part of your process and then they like you and they’ll do that.

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softer side of evil.

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So this is how, why I’m passionate about training.

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Very important, very important.

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Cool.

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We just beat the shit out of Page Speed

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Yeah, I know. So

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That’s one.

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Thing that I kind of think ties into, you know, with MD, in a way, though it’s not really Web MD, is that

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Google just bought Fitbit and I know with Apple

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And I know with Apple, you know,

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Apple just, you know, with their Apple Watch. They do the ECG stuff and they also now.

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Just released their research apps where you can submit all your data to Apple and just for general research because their goal. And Google has the same goal.

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They want to figure out, health, while it’s happening. And hopefully by wearing a device they can say, like, hey, you’re about to have a heart attack, you better, you know, are all signs are pointing to this better go to a doctor.

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And a little bit of me and there’s like, you know, it’s not right away, of course. But what if

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They can also affected like you went for a run and Google knew you and for running, you get back. And now you have an ad for Gatorade because hey you’re parched, or if you’re

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You know your heart rate is up and it’s nighttime. And, you know, pay. Here’s an ad for melatonin. Maybe you’re having trouble sleeping, because we can track you know

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It, it’s to me. It’s kind of open that up like not that Google is looking at it to be even. I think they are evil. I think they’re really looking to

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To figure out kind of health because anyone who can figure out house like that I think makes a ton of money. But Google is also known for advertising and

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Being able to to pull ads around your Fitbit I think would be an interesting dilemma. When it comes to privacy. I mean, hopefully, that there is privacy laws that prevent this, but

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I think there’s always ways to figure that out. And I think coming from the talking about stress doing everything like this. Like there’s going to be devices and there are devices that track all that and they profit.

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It depends on which letter of the alphabet has access to the data. Yeah, quite frankly, um, interestingly, I

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I won the lottery. Have we had big meetings that my boss and I both had to get somebody had to go to at the same exact time and one was in Mountain View and one was in Minnesota.

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And I won the Mountain View, visit

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Which was was really exciting. My boss had to go to Minnesota and

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I went with a team to the Google offices for this like SHOW AND TELL day between Google and Web MD, they like, did the Web MD cook cupcakes and everything.

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And they were showing us they had people coming in from the various letters of the alphabet to show us the various things that they were doing in the health space everything from the human genome tracking to

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And they wanted to like sell us Big Query and stuff like that before they rolled it out and stuff like that. But, um,

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You know, it was also exploring. Is there a way we could be working on like their image recognition and the symptom checker and like actually exploring. Could we work together in in ways to kind of build some of this information.

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Because at this point, um, you know, this is three, four years ago. But at that point, the CDC was actually using the symptom checker data to figure out flu outbreaks.

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Because we had faster data because people were plugging in their zip code as they were plugging in flu symptoms and then the CDC was able to go, oh, this is a code is having a flu outbreak.

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And and so it was that kind of real time information that we were talking about with them and quite frankly they had basically everything that you would have on a Fitbit

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On your Android device at that time. This is three, four years ago, they already had that anybody who had an Android phone. The same way that Google Health. I don’t have an Apple Watch, but I still have my steps in my phone whenever it my phone in my pocket.

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Um, and they had already cracked the code of figuring out, okay, this is a person walking on a sidewalk versus a bicycle versus a car.

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Based on where you were in the map on like GPS data.

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And your rate of speed, like, Oh, you’re on a scooter. We’re not going to count that as a step, they’ll actually be able to tell that based on your accelerometer and where you are, like, on the sidewalk or on the road. These are things that they could do years ago and so

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With Fitbit being monetized my feeling and and that data being available to be monetized. Really, it literally depends on where that that data can go

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Um, HIPAA as a privacy act and PII kind of information that can support that can protect this really honestly can’t protect you all that much. Um, it’s

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It can’t protect you from like ad retargeting and the reason why Web MD won’t do ad retargeting on the stuff that you look up is because it’s incredibly hot button.

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Because can you imagine like do I have an STD or. Am I pregnant. And then, you know, having those ads following you around. That’d be really, really awful.

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When you’re doing a presentation for a client.

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Right, right.

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Or if you’re 15 you know

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True to 15

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And so it’s just one of those like that’s a. It wasn’t that they couldn’t. It wasn’t that they legally, couldn’t it was that they wouldn’t because it was a bad idea.

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And so, um,

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I think Google already could do all of those things if they wanted to, um, and yes, they are absolutely trying to crack the nut. They’re doing a massive study with

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University of California in Berkeley, I think, um, where they have a clinic and they have like this lifetime study of people that they’ve taken every blood test known to man.

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And they go in and do these like massive physicals like all the tests that you like never run like that your doctor just doesn’t bother with unless you have a symptom.

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They run all of them. They also run all their DNA markers. They also run all of this stuff and then they watch and wait and see if they get sick.

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And then if there’s anything from that data that can actually be an earlier prediction of some sort of illness.

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Whether from the genetic side or from like you had a blood test that was off for this vitamin when you were 12 and now you have this, you know, and that kind of thing. And they’re using they’re attempting to use the big data concept to to manage human human health.

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Will they use it to gain financially.

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Oh yeah. Um, but I don’t think that’s a right away. I think that depends on who’s where the walls are and within the company.

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I’m looking at statistics in take this for what you will. I’m big data by 2020 is projected to be a $56 billion industry. And if you take that out by 2027

359
00:57:30.390 –> 00:57:48.030
It’s expected to almost double 100 and $3 billion. So like when you look at Google and you look at Amazon and and of course my Google Pixel just went off so Google’s listening to this, so they know what I’m doing. And I’m going to turn that off because that’s creepy.

360
00:57:51.060 –> 00:57:52.470
I don’t want any Amazon result.

361
00:57:53.340 –> 00:58:00.060
Every time I say seriously Siri was clicking on and I had to like turn off all of her microphone settings for that.

362
00:58:00.060 –> 00:58:17.880
So anyways, so Google being creepy that’s and it’s funny. It’s funny that that happened because that’s exactly what I’m worried about and I in. I don’t know if you guys feel this way but like everybody knows one of Google’s big internal credos is don’t be evil.

363
00:58:18.990 –> 00:58:19.590
And when I

364
00:58:19.770 –> 00:58:21.090
Don’t forget you.

365
00:58:21.150 –> 00:58:23.790
You are calling on the equal and opposite.

366
00:58:23.940 –> 00:58:25.350
Right. Right. And when I

367
00:58:26.190 –> 00:58:36.510
When I when I heard about this acquisition. The, the first thing I thought was they, I don’t know that they necessarily care about Fitbit as a company

368
00:58:36.900 –> 00:58:43.860
They just want their data. And it’s the same with with Facebook. It’s the same with Amazon is they go through the process of

369
00:58:44.310 –> 00:58:51.780
Consolidating and acquiring all these companies and it kind of just seems like an arms race between some of these big companies.

370
00:58:52.110 –> 00:58:57.330
To just acquire as many companies as they can. And I don’t know that they care about the companies.

371
00:58:57.810 –> 00:59:12.000
But because data is projected to be such a massive, massive industry, the one who holds all the data is the one who can dictate the terms of whatever whatever is going to be in the next

372
00:59:12.660 –> 00:59:24.960
10 years and I do feel like at some point, like because of the nature of Google Google’s of business and like you said earlier, they’re beholden to shareholders. So they’ve got to turn a profit.

373
00:59:25.260 –> 00:59:34.740
So You’re damn right, they’re going to use this data to their advantage in probably in some ways that are not in my opinion, probably entirely ethical

374
00:59:36.660 –> 00:59:37.650
guys feel about that.

375
00:59:38.550 –> 00:59:56.100
Well i mean the the trick with big data, um, has been up until recently, very recently, um, the trick has been that very few companies have had the bandwidth and the ability to do anything about it.

376
00:59:57.180 –> 01:00:08.100
It’s like they could collect all the data they wanted. But it was so much noise because how, how the hell were they going to parse it and understand it and do anything and and pull any learnings out of it.

377
01:00:09.120 –> 01:00:23.220
Google, Apple, Amazon are probably, you know, maybe, maybe, Microsoft, um, are the ones that I feel like have the capacity at this point to actually do something with their big data.

378
01:00:24.480 –> 01:00:31.620
Because you have to have both like the speed and the storage and the ability to actually now analyze it.

379
01:00:33.900 –> 01:00:42.150
And I feel like that. You’re right. They are just gathering their Scrooge McDuck in the gold in the house, you know, in the silo full of gold.

380
01:00:43.320 –> 01:00:49.500
Going, we don’t know what we’re going to do with it, but will swim in it for now and then figure it out later and. And yeah, I totally feel like that’s what they’re doing.

381
01:00:50.940 –> 01:00:57.360
I think that’s what’s happening with the echo in the pixels and all of that. Just and Siri, just having the microphones on all the time.

382
01:00:57.750 –> 01:01:11.850
Facebook is the only one that’s used his microphone data in a way that people are going, I just talked about that. Now there’s an ad EU and like it. They were just too transparent with it. Like they they literally were just too obvious. Everybody else is like just playing it. Cool.

383
01:01:14.040 –> 01:01:23.820
Yeah, and we are all the lobsters in the pot and all these companies are slowly raising the temperature and we’re all boil before we realize what’s happening exactly

384
01:01:24.540 –> 01:01:31.440
Oh, so let’s um let’s move out of the news to me last topic or to then kind of the deep dive.

385
01:01:32.130 –> 01:01:49.650
I also want to be respectful of respectful of time, but today we wanted to kind of deep dive into teaching Alicia, you have a passion for teaching. So I, I just wanted to dive into like what’s behind your love for teaching others teaching SEO, so on and so forth.

386
01:01:50.880 –> 01:02:11.610
Um, well, like I said earlier, I believe that the most important way to get buy in from other parts of the company from clients that have that are resistant to see sweets that are resistant to getting an allocation of resources is education.

387
01:02:13.320 –> 01:02:24.030
I think that teaching somebody in a way that is accessible to them and that matters to them that speaks their language is the number one way to get what you need to get done. Done.

388
01:02:25.440 –> 01:02:33.450
My boss at Web MD actually had a really good thing that he used to say, which was we don’t actually do any SEO. We just convinced everybody else to do it for us.

389
01:02:34.950 –> 01:02:43.950
Which is pretty accurate because we had like some control over page titles. But like we had to have editorial team right a thing. And then the doctors review it.

390
01:02:44.370 –> 01:02:56.430
And then, you know, we could like stare at it and go, Hey, can we change this word, but we didn’t really have a lot of control, all we had to all we had at our disposal was education and

391
01:02:57.510 –> 01:03:08.250
You know, buy in from the 200 people in the building with us. And, um, I find that that approach in the agency world actually really helps.

392
01:03:09.390 –> 01:03:14.580
Because by giving education buy in and success reports, what you get is

393
01:03:14.970 –> 01:03:23.010
People who are much more invested, you get clients that are going to renew you get like the you get those clients that even if the results don’t show up.

394
01:03:23.430 –> 01:03:26.340
They start seeing like the little wins, because they’re educated

395
01:03:26.790 –> 01:03:32.520
They start understanding that this is stuff going on below the surface because they’re educated if they understand the CTR hockey stick

396
01:03:32.820 –> 01:03:43.710
And what that graph looks like. And I go, yeah, SEO traffic is low because we’re ranking number nine. And we have a point 3% click Ctr. I get that. Here’s what it looks like when you move up the page.

397
01:03:45.000 –> 01:03:54.420
Know, and they understand what that hockey stick looks like when they really can get that, then they’re like, All right, let’s go for number seven. You know, like they get all in and that’s

398
01:03:54.690 –> 01:04:03.180
That buy in is what makes us move the needle. That’s where you get the resource allocation. That’s where you get the people taking you seriously when you go really seriously page to be matters, y’all.

399
01:04:04.620 –> 01:04:13.020
Um, one of the things that I found that helps the most is speaking in terms of metaphors.

400
01:04:14.970 –> 01:04:20.790
I honestly believe that a lot of the issues that come with SEO in our world.

401
01:04:22.080 –> 01:04:30.510
Is that people get stuck in the jargon and they don’t explain it in simple enough terms to make the other person actually understand they’re very

402
01:04:31.170 –> 01:04:41.220
Very concerned about sounding smart and being correct and not worried about the other person truly understanding which I were just were like my teaching hat comes in so much

403
01:04:43.050 –> 01:04:55.050
Because I prefer not to use the jargon, like you were, you were like, I don’t want to use EA t. And I was like, Yeah, exactly. I like I won’t use the at I’ll say the context of your site matters.

404
01:04:56.640 –> 01:05:04.380
And, and, like, I’ll take it all the way back to to like when you were in third grade, and you were learning from context clues. How to Understand a sentence.

405
01:05:04.710 –> 01:05:08.610
And you came across a big word. And then your mom’s like, figure it out and

406
01:05:09.270 –> 01:05:15.840
You know, like I take them to the third grade with that. And then I walk them through understanding context clues as a Google bot.

407
01:05:16.260 –> 01:05:27.990
And then I’m like, now understand good Googlebot you know with hummingbird they became like a a college freshman of understanding context clues and I was like a now they’re like smarter than us.

408
01:05:28.920 –> 01:05:38.370
So, so it’s the idea of contextual reality and then I’m talking in terms of context and not talking about you. I’m really talking about it.

409
01:05:38.910 –> 01:05:50.040
But I’m not using the jargon and I find that using that kind of teaching methodology tends to win people over and get them on board a hell of a lot faster. Um,

410
01:05:51.510 –> 01:05:56.400
Other stuff that I taught. One of the things that is really funny is my people at women D, the

411
01:05:57.240 –> 01:06:09.840
Metaphors and phrases that I’ve coined they thought were industry terms, so much so that they didn’t know when somebody else didn’t know it that that was like they were like, oh, clearly you have nothing. You know nothing about SEO.

412
01:06:10.650 –> 01:06:23.490
Because I made it up. I’m the editorial team at Web MD thought that keyword cannibalization as a term was Ag, so I called it sibling rivalry and told them to pick a favorite child.

413
01:06:24.750 –> 01:06:26.520
It’s the same thing.

414
01:06:28.710 –> 01:06:34.950
But they all thought sibling rivalry was totally, totally an SEO term like all over the world.

415
01:06:36.540 –> 01:06:45.270
And so it’s the same concept. I’m like, the kids are arguing in the backseat. You want one of them to be in the front seat. So, you know, shove the other one off into the ditch.

416
01:06:50.070 –> 01:06:56.130
And, and, like, it’s that concept of humor and like visual images where they’re like, okay, I’m going to pick a favorite child.

417
01:06:58.950 –> 01:06:59.700
Great analogy.

418
01:07:00.570 –> 01:07:06.840
And talking in those metaphors, is I find really really helpful.

419
01:07:08.070 –> 01:07:18.510
I use them constantly I’m one of the ones that the that I know a lot of my team is sick of hearing, but it works so well.

420
01:07:19.800 –> 01:07:24.780
Is I talk about 301 redirects are permanent address changes with the US Postal Service.

421
01:07:26.010 –> 01:07:37.440
And how, if you’ve moved around a lot, and done a lot of those through a lot of address changes with the Postal Service, you know that if you do too many and too fast to time, you lose bills and possibly checks.

422
01:07:38.910 –> 01:07:44.460
Like that the Postal Service doesn’t know how to find you, things don’t get forwarded to the right place. Every it’s mayhem.

423
01:07:45.060 –> 01:07:53.070
And so you want to do them with great care great deliberation and probably no more frequently than every six months and

424
01:07:53.910 –> 01:07:57.390
Comparing it to just an address change, which is what it is.

425
01:07:57.720 –> 01:08:07.890
But actually making it something that is real life that they can hold in their hands like you can actually hand somebody that you still US Postal Service envelope and go, this is the thing you’re doing with that 301 redirect.

426
01:08:08.580 –> 01:08:18.540
And if it’s a forum for it just means you moved in didn’t fill this out you know and and you can like really explain server hundred responses by Houston. This wasn’t stupid form from the post office.

427
01:08:20.250 –> 01:08:29.070
But it’s tangible and it’s something they can think about like they can think about bills and checks coming in, they can think about like they have this tangible relatable thing.

428
01:08:29.400 –> 01:08:33.420
They don’t care what the numbers mean. They care what the actual effect is

429
01:08:33.990 –> 01:08:46.920
And so that’s the kind of thing that I use when I’m doing client education as well as when I’m when I’m talking to C suite I use the same like I’m not talking down to a person. I’m just assuming they don’t give a shit what a three or one is

430
01:08:49.050 –> 01:08:50.430
They don’t care.

431
01:08:51.900 –> 01:08:57.480
They don’t care what acronym. I’m talking about. They just want to know what what they need to know

432
01:08:59.430 –> 01:09:09.300
So those are the kinds of metaphors that I really, I get into using and people laugh that I do it, but quite frankly, I find it is incredibly effective

433
01:09:11.130 –> 01:09:15.360
Because you have people who understand. Oh, we don’t want to do too many three ones will lose bills.

434
01:09:19.440 –> 01:09:30.120
Questions question. So there’s like, you know, we don’t learn this in college right SEO in general is not being taught in schools, maybe there’s a class or maybe there’s like some high level stuff but

435
01:09:30.660 –> 01:09:50.370
We’ve learned, like I’ve spent countless and endless nights learning trying adding stuff failing getting stuffed good at reading doing all this stuff to to get to where I’m at and been doing that for the last 10 to 15 years and doing that. And I have a ton of experience doing that.

436
01:09:51.390 –> 01:09:52.680
I mean, you feel there’s like

437
01:09:54.300 –> 01:10:01.680
An ethical responsibility for me to teach the lesson experience. I mean, I feel like I’ve learned a lot of it on my own.

438
01:10:02.130 –> 01:10:07.140
But in general, I mean, is there like that pay it forward mentality that would like

439
01:10:07.800 –> 01:10:14.310
I should be sitting down with more junior telling them everything teaching them everything I’ve learned in there. I was in the SEO world there’s

440
01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:23.520
Are some people who hold on to their knowledge and there’s tons of people who share it and and i think i do share a good bit about it. But I think there’s sometimes I’m just want to say

441
01:10:24.270 –> 01:10:31.290
Go, you know, hey, go build a website and then you’ll learn how to do a redirect or you’ll learn that something’s you know

442
01:10:31.770 –> 01:10:43.020
when something breaks, like you’re just not constantly having to call me even though I do like being in that position where people call me it’s like it’s a weird thing. But I was wondering, like, kind of what you feel about some of that.

443
01:10:43.980 –> 01:10:52.770
So, um, I’ve been exploring the idea of like creating a training program like doing kind of like an online training kind of community.

444
01:10:54.390 –> 01:11:00.750
And part of what I’ve explored with that is, what are the skills that an SEO really needs to know.

445
01:11:01.950 –> 01:11:06.840
I had a kind of an apprentice. We did an apprenticeship. He’s now a journeyman

446
01:11:08.520 –> 01:11:14.250
Is not yet a master, but he’s a journeyman he’s off traveling and doing his own thing with other masters, um,

447
01:11:14.910 –> 01:11:29.130
He and I talked a lot about what skills do you need to know. Yeah. You need to know how to use the tools you need to know which tools to use when and like the basics of what a client would expect. But the real key.

448
01:11:30.660 –> 01:11:33.000
Thing that I think

449
01:11:36.210 –> 01:11:52.290
Needs to be taught in school needs to be taught in college needs to be taught to our junior SEOs and honestly if I’m going to write a nonfiction book about SEO. This is going to be the topic, um, the concept is of information.

450
01:11:53.310 –> 01:12:15.270
validation and understanding and being able to to understand your source and to think skeptically and critically about it. Um, because what you just said was that you went off and you read a whole lot and you test it a whole lot and you tried a whole lot. And that’s how you learned it.

451
01:12:16.440 –> 01:12:23.130
Um, that is information validation selection and and critically thinking about it.

452
01:12:24.180 –> 01:12:44.340
What we have in the age of the Internet is an information overload. But it’s of all varying degrees of validity and value and usefulness and like we’ve got their SEO articles that people are still citing that are from 2008 and it’s like, Oh, honey. No.

453
01:12:46.230 –> 01:12:47.640
And the thing is is that

454
01:12:47.670 –> 01:12:48.210
Cut said

455
01:12:49.950 –> 01:12:50.550
Exactly.

456
01:12:51.810 –> 01:12:59.310
And so how do you, how do you assess that information and its validity, because it could be about a best practice, it could be

457
01:12:59.670 –> 01:13:08.730
Something that legitimately is still correct there are things from 2008 that like you know you should maybe have an old time first screen reader that is a couple of words long about that image.

458
01:13:08.940 –> 01:13:15.060
Like there are things that they were saying in 2008 that were not wrong. Matt Cutts still said stuff that wasn’t wrong.

459
01:13:15.360 –> 01:13:25.830
The problem is applying that critical thinking to. Okay. How is that different today. How does that matter to me. Where does that come in. I feel the same way about reading anything that comes out of Google’s mouth.

460
01:13:27.750 –> 01:13:32.250
Because there’s a layer of, okay, here’s the best practice. This is what they want. This is their desired state.

461
01:13:34.860 –> 01:13:43.380
How does that actually reflected in reality because they can say Page Speed really matters, but does Patriot really matter. I need to know myself.

462
01:13:45.240 –> 01:13:50.070
And how is that reflected in reality because they’re not saying where the money is.

463
01:13:51.900 –> 01:14:01.530
Because if you think about page speed as a factor and they want everybody on AMP. They want everybody to do this. They want everybody on that they want everybody on Google Cloud services so that you can have your page speed and eat it, too.

464
01:14:02.160 –> 01:14:06.930
The thing is, is that the money is in everybody’s data going on AMP.

465
01:14:08.610 –> 01:14:13.050
The money is in everybody hosting on Google because it’ll make their pages faster.

466
01:14:13.860 –> 01:14:29.490
The money is in all of these other things that is not necessarily PHP matters to users. Whoo. We’re not evil and being able to see through those layers and articulate those layers of

467
01:14:30.030 –> 01:14:39.900
Of reality. They’re not wrong PHP does matter users, there is no human being that’s ever gone GEE, I WISH THIS website were slower, but at the same time.

468
01:14:41.010 –> 01:14:50.280
You’ve got to read. You got to read between the lines that Google is a money making apparatus and this is capitalism and you know they’re going to make a buck somehow

469
01:14:51.000 –> 01:14:56.010
And so if if that’s and so it’s like okay so let’s follow that money wherever it goes so

470
01:14:57.000 –> 01:15:05.400
Understanding and being able to tell. Okay. Is this a trusted source of information that’s why one of my SEO interview questions is always, what do you read to stay up to date.

471
01:15:06.300 –> 01:15:13.260
What news. Do you read to stay up to date and SEO because if they tell me a website that I think is complete malarkey. I’m going to be like, hey,

472
01:15:15.570 –> 01:15:26.250
Or I’ll say, okay, why, why are you reading that website. What is it about that website that you find useful because they might be like, oh, it’s complete Malarkey but I read it for the comedy value like i mean

473
01:15:27.480 –> 01:15:29.550
It. There’s, there’s a lot of reasons why.

474
01:15:30.360 –> 01:15:36.660
Somebody might look at those things, or I read it because there’s black hat tips in all of the comments or whatever. I don’t know.

475
01:15:37.140 –> 01:15:45.450
Um, but the thing for me is it’s about information evaluation. And if you’re going to teach somebody anything that’s teaching a man to fish right they’re

476
01:15:46.350 –> 01:15:56.160
Teaching them to because we’re all skeptics every, every SEO that has like an old salty SEO that I know is skeptical and paranoid every last one of us.

477
01:15:59.010 –> 01:16:02.100
The older and salty or we are, the more skeptical and paranoid. We are

478
01:16:03.810 –> 01:16:05.460
We’re experienced, we are

479
01:16:11.520 –> 01:16:17.640
We are skeptical and paranoid and and i think that the worst SEO is a gullible SEO.

480
01:16:19.410 –> 01:16:36.300
And if you feel compelled to train a junior up. I feel like that is the skill to train them. That is the thing that is the thing to hand on to if you want to be Yoda. That’s what you give Luke because he’s gonna run off before you’re done training them anyway.

481
01:16:37.770 –> 01:16:46.860
Buddy and and the thing that my apprentice kept running into was, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know anything about that. I was like, I run into shit. I don’t know how to do every day you learn how to Google it.

482
01:16:48.090 –> 01:16:58.560
You learn how to look up 17 sources on that one topic and like do a complete brain dump and then go. Alright, this is how I’m going to test this. And that’s how you learn.

483
01:16:59.820 –> 01:17:00.480
So I think

484
01:17:00.540 –> 01:17:16.050
The, the overarching question still remains, you’re a person that has a lot of experience. Should you not, maybe not. Can you teach somebody else should you should you, is it worth your time.

485
01:17:16.950 –> 01:17:18.240
I think that depends on the person.

486
01:17:19.500 –> 01:17:22.980
I think it depends on the person, because I’m

487
01:17:25.560 –> 01:17:45.510
Are industry is so rife with weird complex battles and drama and so much of the like old stuff still getting sold and the snake oil still getting done. And I can’t tell you how many people go, oh I hired for somebody for SEO and I got really burned by it.

488
01:17:46.530 –> 01:17:50.040
I mean, I hear that daily and

489
01:17:51.090 –> 01:17:52.380
Is it our

490
01:17:53.970 –> 01:18:01.050
If we are passionate about this as a as a effort as a career as a vocation.

491
01:18:02.070 –> 01:18:10.230
Is it our calling and requirement to build others who are not shoddy snake oil salesman, you know,

492
01:18:11.610 –> 01:18:12.240
Um,

493
01:18:13.950 –> 01:18:23.550
I honestly believe that that’s a, that’s a personal question. Um, I personally was really burned out. I still am kind of burned out on SEO.

494
01:18:23.970 –> 01:18:37.560
And I find that teaching and training is a way for me to tap into a passion and be excited about it and feel like I’m doing good in the world. Instead of just get more Google visitors to this website like it’s

495
01:18:39.570 –> 01:18:41.070
It’s a way that gives me, meaning

496
01:18:42.120 –> 01:18:47.790
And I think that if it’s meaningful for you and it does give you meaning then. Absolutely. You should um

497
01:18:48.930 –> 01:18:50.160
Should everybody

498
01:18:51.780 –> 01:18:52.350
I mean,

499
01:18:56.670 –> 01:18:57.600
Probably not.

500
01:19:00.630 –> 01:19:01.770
I guess. Why would you say that

501
01:19:03.150 –> 01:19:03.690
Um,

502
01:19:07.830 –> 01:19:13.380
I mean, not everybody is going to be a good trainer teacher and they might teach

503
01:19:14.520 –> 01:19:18.480
Not wrong things but they might they might teach things that are

504
01:19:20.100 –> 01:19:21.630
The service to others.

505
01:19:23.190 –> 01:19:33.420
Um, I mean, not everybody set up to be a guru. You know that’s that’s the whole self proclaimed guru thing, isn’t it, I let me be your master like it’s ridiculous.

506
01:19:35.190 –> 01:19:40.380
Not everybody has that has those chops. Um, and, and to know what like

507
01:19:40.740 –> 01:19:48.180
Like I was saying, the difference between teaching a person to fish versus, you know, having them come back to me every time having this apprentice. That was sitting here every day.

508
01:19:48.780 –> 01:20:00.300
Um, I needed him to know it was okay not to know everything, and how to go find that out more than I needed him to know here’s the checklist to fill out for these 10 steps to do this thing.

509
01:20:02.430 –> 01:20:04.260
Um, and so

510
01:20:05.400 –> 01:20:20.190
It depends on where you are. I know that a lot of people really feel like they don’t want anybody else’s bad habits. So they want to like grow their own juniors from the start and be like, oh, I want this like fresh new mind to to mold. As I wish.

511
01:20:20.790 –> 01:20:29.970
Um, and that’s that is absolutely a valid way to go about things. Um, but I do find that you find blind spots in that

512
01:20:31.290 –> 01:20:37.950
Because that that new person doesn’t learn how to think in new ways without you. That’s why an apprentice has to go be a journeyman

513
01:20:38.070 –> 01:20:47.340
Often there, they might be your own blind spots. If you’re molding them to reflect who you are and you have blind spots. Well, if they’re going to have those lines spots as well. I have

514
01:20:48.540 –> 01:20:54.330
To use a Star Wars analogy because it kind of sounds like we’re talking about like six floors here but

515
01:20:56.790 –> 01:21:11.250
If you’re a paddle on and you’re looking at someone as your as your, your Yoda, your, your jet I trainer, how you know if you’re if you’re a person that you’re looking up to is completely full of crap.

516
01:21:12.240 –> 01:21:13.800
Is it a quiet gone or Apollo 13

517
01:21:13.920 –> 01:21:14.430
Right, right.

518
01:21:18.090 –> 01:21:18.690
Um,

519
01:21:20.280 –> 01:21:32.610
Yeah, well that comes down to that question of information. Information articulation and understanding, can you can you tell whether that person is completely full of crap or not.

520
01:21:35.310 –> 01:21:40.590
I’m a lot of people get sucked in by fake gurus all the time.

521
01:21:41.760 –> 01:21:42.450
Um,

522
01:21:43.500 –> 01:21:47.790
I honestly think that a junior SEO.

523
01:21:50.070 –> 01:22:02.190
The clearest way would be to talk to another master you know if if you’re talking to a colleague on chalk, talk to the OB one talk to the, you know, talk to you to talk to some of the other guys and see what’s going on. Um,

524
01:22:03.660 –> 01:22:05.940
And if they go, Oh, you’re studying with him. Hmm.

525
01:22:09.060 –> 01:22:18.480
You know, kind of crowdsource that information, but also I think understanding and and knowing how to look up that information for yourself and double checking it is really important.

526
01:22:20.010 –> 01:22:30.150
Yeah, I think I would I would tend to agree and I feel like I I’m giving you these questions as as playing devil’s advocate, I am one of those people that feel like

527
01:22:31.620 –> 01:22:34.980
The feel like we do as more experienced people have

528
01:22:36.030 –> 01:22:47.130
Maybe not an ethical responsibility, but some sort of responsibility to pay it forward, because there were people that felt responsible to pay it forward to me.

529
01:22:47.850 –> 01:22:58.410
early on in my career. So I think I’m, to some degree, always going to be trying to do that. But I also realize that not everybody’s passionate about that not everybody’s good at that.

530
01:22:59.190 –> 01:23:18.990
Not everybody wants to do that. I will say for myself. The in my career, more so than working with clients or any other thing, the area where I found the most fulfillment was when I was doing the the teaching and helping shape shape young minds, quote, unquote.

531
01:23:20.100 –> 01:23:27.810
Teaching them teaching them how to fish and even more happy for me was watching them then go out and fish and then

532
01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:39.780
Take what they started with me and branch off and develop it even further and then watching them start to teach other people how to fish like you have no idea how amazing for me.

533
01:23:40.860 –> 01:23:52.890
That felt like selfishly in not that i think i’m like super greater or anything, anything like that but it was for me, a real badge of honor to watch people that I

534
01:23:55.020 –> 01:23:59.490
helped to bring up helping to bring other people, other people up.

535
01:24:00.480 –> 01:24:08.280
But I will say that there there are people out there that are just, I remember early on in my career, there was

536
01:24:09.030 –> 01:24:14.760
A certain couple of people early on in my career I had created a blog that I call the agent SEO.

537
01:24:15.570 –> 01:24:29.610
As just kind of a way to well blogging was big at the time and I just, just like this podcast I had a creative itch and I wanted to get it out there. So I would post seo, seo content and they got so mad.

538
01:24:30.150 –> 01:24:36.630
At me for, quote unquote, sharing the industry trade trade secrets and I just never quite

539
01:24:37.320 –> 01:24:47.550
Understood. And these people were supposed to be my quote unquote teachers, and this was talking a lot about data. This was a data point for me that my teachers were

540
01:24:48.000 –> 01:24:56.550
Idiots completed, complete, complete and maybe they weren’t idiots. But like I just felt like they were off base. And for me that was a point

541
01:24:57.630 –> 01:25:00.930
A turning point for me in relation to my ability to

542
01:25:02.160 –> 01:25:09.750
To trust them, and I was never really able to trust them, but I also think, Okay, we’re thinking about this from the perspective of the people teaching

543
01:25:11.100 –> 01:25:21.480
In Jeff, you said an interesting. An interesting thing go build a website. I think that those folks coming up in the space have just as much responsibility.

544
01:25:22.080 –> 01:25:40.740
Like you said, Alicia to go out and validate and test and learn. They have just as much responsibility to go out and do that. And I have to admit, sometimes I don’t necessarily see the level of productivity that I would like with with the young folks coming up in the industry.

545
01:25:42.000 –> 01:25:46.140
Now that I’m one of the older folks, I would like to see more of that.

546
01:25:46.710 –> 01:25:49.980
Coming from folks that are that are new in the industry just

547
01:25:50.280 –> 01:26:01.950
You know, a curiosity or hey, I want to go try building a website just to just to break things just to see what will will happen and I fully realized that’s not for everybody, but I do think that as much as

548
01:26:02.400 –> 01:26:22.380
The experienced folks, the old guard has a responsibility to teach people, especially if you’re good at doing it the people coming up, have a responsibility to not just wait to be taught to go figure things out as much as possible, but that’s true.

549
01:26:23.700 –> 01:26:30.960
I agree with you that it is it is a. And that’s, you know, mythological studies going back to the to my grad degree.

550
01:26:31.890 –> 01:26:47.310
The guru relationship. The, the person who is the student does have that kind of responsibility, they have to go do their work in those real real situations, they, they have a lot more work to do, then, then the teacher does really

551
01:26:49.140 –> 01:27:01.110
You made me think of a thing that a manager said to me once, and this is way back in the bell South days and this manager took me aside and said,

552
01:27:02.520 –> 01:27:03.810
You have a lot of knowledge.

553
01:27:04.980 –> 01:27:05.640
And

554
01:27:06.780 –> 01:27:10.230
you’re mistaking that knowledge for power.

555
01:27:11.280 –> 01:27:13.800
But knowledge is only powerful when you share it.

556
01:27:17.370 –> 01:27:25.920
And that is kind of where I come from, on all of this is that knowledge is only powerful when I’m sharing it with other people.

557
01:27:27.750 –> 01:27:28.950
That’s actually a powerful statement.

558
01:27:32.910 –> 01:27:34.680
Awesome. Well, I mean, I think that’s

559
01:27:35.970 –> 01:27:40.800
Gonna be really careful of time because we’re pushing an hour and a half now. So

560
01:27:42.480 –> 01:27:43.710
Lots of editing homework.

561
01:27:43.740 –> 01:27:45.210
Yeah, no, it’s great and

562
01:27:45.960 –> 01:27:54.540
You know, I guess my final thoughts on that aspect was I really feel that I am willing to teach. But you have to be willing to learn and

563
01:27:55.350 –> 01:28:02.370
When you know some things are complicated, right, and doing any tips or coding or any types of tech I focus on technical side a lot. It’s

564
01:28:02.730 –> 01:28:17.640
It’s there are some people who just who always want to know it, but really don’t. There’s a lot of time. You got to put into doing it and it’s if I don’t feel that you’re 100% into it. I feel like I might be wasting my time and time is more, you know, valuable than than any of this. So,

565
01:28:18.660 –> 01:28:22.770
But I wanted to thank you for coming onto the show and I, you know, we’re gonna

566
01:28:23.880 –> 01:28:30.090
I don’t think we’re gonna have much editing. I think we have some really great content going on here and I’m hoping that the world gets listen to it all.

567
01:28:32.190 –> 01:28:34.530
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was it was a pleasure.

568
01:28:34.890 –> 01:28:36.030
A good way to start Friday.

569
01:28:37.260 –> 01:28:37.770
Yes.

570
01:28:39.150 –> 01:28:40.470
Oh, bye everybody.

571
01:28:40.800 –> 01:28:42.870
All right. Thank you, guys. Bye.

#29: Kelly Stanze

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Kelly Stanze, SEO specialist at Hallmark.

We discuss how she started in marketing, how it led her to SEO, and how she eventually made it to Hallmark.

We also discuss a ton of other topics including:

  • What it’s like to get laid off, how to cope with failure in a way that makes you stronger,
  • Agency versus In-House
  • Deep dive into Holiday SEO & Snowman poop
  • Talk about evergreen content strategy
  • Our thoughts on Google’s BERT
  • Google Search Console’s new page speed reports
  • Work life balance
  • Importance of relationships

And much more.

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:00.840 –> 00:00:14.009
Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops and we are back with another episode of the page to podcast and today we have an extra special guest, and given that the

2
00:00:14.610 –> 00:00:27.120
It has turned into the holiday season. This guest is extremely appropriate to have on right now, but with us is Kelly stanzi search specialist at Hallmark. How you doing, Kelly.

3
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Good. How are you, I

4
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Am I am awesome and before we, before we kind of jump in. I’m Jeff. Say hi. Sorry, I forgot to introduce you

5
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Hey, howdy. Hey,

6
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We don’t care about Jeff.

7
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Yes, we do. Jeff.

8
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I appreciate. Thank you.

9
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We are. I was just gonna say before we kind of dive in. I don’t know if you guys have been noticing it like two events for me recently.

10
00:00:53.730 –> 00:01:07.860
Have triggered the fact that, and I can’t believe it, that it is holiday season, yet again, one happened about four weeks ago and it infuriated me when I walked into Home Depot and the Christmas trees were already up

11
00:01:08.880 –> 00:01:11.760
Like Sons of bitches. It’s October 1 like

12
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What the heck it and it just seems to be getting

13
00:01:16.620 –> 00:01:28.710
earlier and earlier and earlier every year and then yesterday I was in the line at Starbucks and I didn’t realize that it was the official release of their new holiday cups and

14
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Cups. Yeah, to put it in perspective. Like, I went today. I’m kind of a Starbucks fiend, and I went today and I went yesterday.

15
00:01:36.270 –> 00:01:49.110
Yesterday, I had to wait in line for like 30 minutes and it was insane. Today I went through the drive thru in under like under four minutes or five minutes. So it’s holiday season. So it’s really appropriate that you’re on Kelly.

16
00:01:49.920 –> 00:02:09.600
You know i i think i actually have one of the best holiday season stories ever as far as seasonality goes, I have an 11 MONTH OLD AND HIS BIRTHDAY IS NOVEMBER 27 and last year. Cyber Monday. Remember e commerce retail day job.

17
00:02:10.770 –> 00:02:21.000
His birthday was the day after Cyber Monday last year. So I actually checked into the hospital and started my maternity leave on Cyber Monday.

18
00:02:21.780 –> 00:02:23.550
Wow. Wow.

19
00:02:24.000 –> 00:02:24.540
Yeah.

20
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Give him to try me.

21
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No, no, no. And he was worth it and

22
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You know what a good deal. Yeah.

23
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We had absolutely amazing coverage like my team is fantastic but it’s just so funny that I

24
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My day job at least is at such a seasonally relevant

25
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Company and oh by the way I’m going to miss the busy season and I didn’t come back until the week after Valentine’s Day, which is also a huge holiday for homework. So that’s kind of funny. Um,

26
00:02:56.700 –> 00:03:04.200
But then, yeah, even, even on the freelance side the side hustle stuff I end up having quite a bit of seasonality, just because

27
00:03:04.620 –> 00:03:18.720
I do work with small businesses and nonprofits. So if you’re working with a local photographer, you know her busy season is going to be in October, helping people get ready for Christmas cards and

28
00:03:19.380 –> 00:03:26.400
Nonprofit nonprofits are scrambling to get their, their donation campaigns ready for the holiday season as well. So it’s like

29
00:03:27.780 –> 00:03:30.990
Q4 is the linchpin of the entire year.

30
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It’s the busy season.

31
00:03:33.210 –> 00:03:46.890
In a for any agency Q4 is always the busy season. That’s where you like. You definitely are expected to put in a lot of lot of overtime. So it’s just call it, it’s just it is what it is. It’s the busy season.

32
00:03:48.630 –> 00:03:58.980
So Kelly take us take us through your career. Like I feel like I’ve said this a million times. I’m going to say it again in case there are first time listeners, the hallmark of this show.

33
00:03:59.430 –> 00:04:13.470
Is telling the origin stories of great SEOs. And not only that, but talking about just the Trials. Trials and tribulations of what it’s like to be an SEO day to day in things that are

34
00:04:14.880 –> 00:04:20.400
Important like work life balance. The, the mental side of things.

35
00:04:21.870 –> 00:04:28.980
And I, and I kind of want to dive into that, but so take us take us through your career. How did you get to SEO. How did you get to homework.

36
00:04:29.940 –> 00:04:32.580
Well, I took the winding road.

37
00:04:33.990 –> 00:04:40.230
I actually started accidentally landing social media internships in college.

38
00:04:41.280 –> 00:04:56.640
And my degree was an interactive design. So it was loosely relevant like, Oh, I can make this meme. And I can edit this video and publish this podcast and build a landing page, but for the most part, I sort of fell into the social media space.

39
00:04:57.750 –> 00:05:09.270
And I got hired by one of the agencies that I interned for in their KANSAS CITY OFFICE. After graduation, so moved down here from the Chicagoland area and

40
00:05:10.230 –> 00:05:22.230
Started working for an agriculture agency and I loved it. Like I was in Florida and FFA and high school and now a farm girl living in the suburbs and

41
00:05:23.580 –> 00:05:35.970
Then, a year and a half after they moved me to Kansas City. They laid me off. So I’m 23 years old really only knew my boyfriend at the time was now my husband.

42
00:05:37.920 –> 00:05:47.820
And was trying to figure out what came next. And he was like, you know, the SEO team at the agency that I used to work for

43
00:05:48.720 –> 00:06:07.500
Actually manages social media for clients to so you should consider applying there and I did and I got it, but ended up realizing that I actually loved SEO way more than I had ever like I was okay at social media and it was cool. I got to brag about some fun projects.

44
00:06:08.760 –> 00:06:11.940
But I would come to work every day excited about.

45
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All the things when I was doing SEO.

46
00:06:19.020 –> 00:06:24.420
And just, I feel like I I found my niche there and ended up kind of

47
00:06:25.950 –> 00:06:34.980
Getting tapped for a really large clients at that agency had and got to enjoy the dedicated specialist life for a year, which

48
00:06:35.520 –> 00:06:44.370
Anyone that has ever had just one client at an agency knows what a big deal. That is, and really got to spread my wings.

49
00:06:44.910 –> 00:06:58.920
About two years after I started at that agency there was kind of a shift in the business model and the ownership and I decided it might be time to see if there was a new chapter on the horizon for me and I

50
00:06:59.490 –> 00:07:09.630
Kind of on a whim applied for hallmark and got it and I’ve been here for years. That’s a lot of Q force to serve.

51
00:07:11.280 –> 00:07:26.550
But I’m throughout that entire journey I’ve also been doing freelancing on the side with small businesses nonprofits niche groups I helped with a website for a pig show in Texas, one time.

52
00:07:28.290 –> 00:07:36.900
Because I’m one of the few SEO specialist out there that does have agricultural industry experience so that I keep coming back to that. That’s hilarious.

53
00:07:37.440 –> 00:07:41.100
Um, yes, I do have a poop question later so

54
00:07:41.730 –> 00:07:44.910
Okay, I can, I can probably answer that for you.

55
00:07:44.940 –> 00:07:47.670
As a mother, you should be an expert in that at this point.

56
00:07:48.480 –> 00:07:49.410
Oh boy.

57
00:07:50.430 –> 00:07:56.280
Um, so yeah, I didn’t. I cut you off there. I couldn’t resist the end to talk about poop.

58
00:07:58.230 –> 00:08:00.690
So you you got laid off. What was that like

59
00:08:02.250 –> 00:08:05.430
It was awful. Um, you know, I had

60
00:08:07.260 –> 00:08:18.750
My boyfriend now has been probably six months and I just remember like hanging out at his apartment was nothing to do just crying because I had always

61
00:08:20.130 –> 00:08:25.350
focus so much of my identity and my career. Up until that point. And even after that.

62
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I really didn’t kind of understand how to shift like my self worth, out of my career as much until I became a mom.

63
00:08:34.920 –> 00:08:51.420
But when you’re that invested in your career and your this young, hot shot that had this cool agency job and you are going to take the world by storm. And then suddenly you’re unemployed and a city 500 miles from your home, trying to figure out what you’re going to do.

64
00:08:52.890 –> 00:09:06.360
That’s scary. And I think I was more scared of not knowing who I was, or what my career was going to be than I necessarily was about being far from home and a place I’ve only lived for just over a year.

65
00:09:08.580 –> 00:09:18.510
Obviously I decided to stay and put my roots down deeper here in Kansas City. And it’s the best decision I’ve ever made, but at the time it was

66
00:09:19.800 –> 00:09:26.520
Just so much uncertainty and such a blow to who I thought I was because

67
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I was supposed to be taking the world by storm and and forging a path for myself and now I’m just like standing here like okay

68
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I can pay the bills for two weeks on my severance okay this is nice.

69
00:09:43.290 –> 00:09:55.350
And it worked out. It was actually I recently wrote a piece for search engine journal about kind of like the parallels between my

70
00:09:56.370 –> 00:10:04.050
Mental health journey and my career and like just the the deep intertwining between those two things and

71
00:10:04.620 –> 00:10:24.660
I made a note of calling out that the best things that have ever happened to me. Usually looked like a disaster at the time. So I really bad breakup in college, losing that first job fresh out of college and falling into a CEO and you know at the time that was

72
00:10:26.040 –> 00:10:26.910
I’m getting old now.

73
00:10:28.410 –> 00:10:30.030
I’m not even sure how many years ago that was

74
00:10:31.560 –> 00:10:48.780
At the time, no SEO or social media really only had like some surface level vanity metrics that you could look at and I got into SEO and looked at this, like depths of knowledge that you could get from Search Console and analytics, even though they had just switched to not provided.

75
00:10:50.010 –> 00:10:53.370
And that’s not even touching like the SEO specific

76
00:10:54.510 –> 00:11:03.240
platforms like mas and bright edge or conductor or a dress, you know, we all, we all know the list.

77
00:11:05.910 –> 00:11:13.500
So I realized that I was actually for the first time really using both sides of my brain. And that was something I needed.

78
00:11:15.540 –> 00:11:30.720
So yeah, losing that first job and being able to sort of tap into a piece of myself that I didn’t know was there and kind of needed to be fed and nurtured was actually like a happy accident and yeah

79
00:11:31.080 –> 00:11:37.380
I was gonna ask. So like you. You made an interesting point about like the things

80
00:11:38.400 –> 00:11:50.160
That at first look like disasters, end up turning out to be really, really good things in your, in your life, and I’m a huge in the same as for me, I’m a huge believer in

81
00:11:50.730 –> 00:11:59.670
In fate and being in the right place at the right time. And there have been a lot of instances of that in my life. So now,

82
00:12:00.510 –> 00:12:16.020
With kind of that new outlook when something big like that happens in your life. How has that experience, change the way you attack problems or how is it made you better. How did you pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

83
00:12:18.240 –> 00:12:18.900
Oh,

84
00:12:18.960 –> 00:12:20.100
Get to that good place.

85
00:12:20.310 –> 00:12:28.020
Yeah. Um, I think it’s really, it’s dependent on the chapter and the situation.

86
00:12:29.910 –> 00:12:36.330
You know the I’ve mentioned in passing a bad breakup in college. My coping mechanism for that was

87
00:12:36.750 –> 00:12:49.260
Okay, I’m going to take these out of state internships and like go live my life. So I got to spend a summer living in Sacramento, California. Now for a kid in the Midwest, like that’s a huge experience.

88
00:12:50.280 –> 00:12:57.060
And that’s the internship that ended up landing to here in Kansas City where I have this amazing, fantastic like said I love

89
00:13:00.480 –> 00:13:04.680
So yeah i i don’t know i think in that situation. It was like a

90
00:13:06.180 –> 00:13:15.060
Almost like a kind of juvenile I’ll show you type thing, but then when I got laid off, it was more about, like, okay.

91
00:13:16.590 –> 00:13:34.590
I think I can take a risk here because I have nothing to lose. I don’t. It’s not like I have a job to worry about. So I did go out on a limb and apply for an SEO team that did some social media, knowing that I would be stretching my my comfort zone. So

92
00:13:35.700 –> 00:13:40.230
If I had to distill it down to like one coping mechanism. It’s usually

93
00:13:43.350 –> 00:14:00.060
If I know something’s coming I stew in the dread for forever. And I get super anxious, but once I’m in it. It’s just like, Okay, what now. And yeah, you know, is this, is this a turning point. Do I need to pivot and typically when I have pivoted it’s ended up working out.

94
00:14:02.880 –> 00:14:03.840
Yeah, I think we’ve all

95
00:14:05.100 –> 00:14:12.720
Had to pivot at one time. I mean, I’m way older than both you guys so um I pivoted a lot in my career started off you know as web designer.

96
00:14:14.040 –> 00:14:18.000
It was interesting because everything to me. I think was a

97
00:14:19.320 –> 00:14:27.270
All luck. I don’t know, it’s weird. It’s interesting. I got it all goes because started off wanting to learn 3D animation.

98
00:14:28.440 –> 00:14:34.740
Really was bad at that but learned along the way was really bad design, but no one else did it.

99
00:14:36.090 –> 00:14:44.280
Learned code at the same time and moved into SEO, mostly because I was willing to take those chances and, you know, not many people were

100
00:14:45.060 –> 00:14:57.600
You know, doing this stuff at the time, and it wasn’t really a, you know, I lived through the.com boom and then bust. Right. I went to bartending school at that night because I was like, well, when the internet goes away.

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I’m gonna be a bartender, because at least I can make some money while I, you know, find something else to do. Luckily, that didn’t happen.

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I mean, I didn’t think it was gonna happen. But I mean, a lot of companies went out of business. At that time, and there was been through.

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A bunch of layoffs. Luckily not on the layoff side, but there were some companies I knew right away, like when it was happening and I was already on the lookout to go somewhere else. Because like you just some people were just sitting there.

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Yeah, what’s

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Next,

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So, so yeah, having kind of the insight and just having the bravery to be able to just jump and figure that out.

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Well, and I think there’s there’s something to be said for just when you’re in it. There’s certain level of like survival instincts that he can, like,

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I was, I was very fortunate in that I was only unemployed for two weeks.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, most, most people don’t get that kind of that kind of luck following Ola, and I have not. I’ve

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See, I’ve been in the professional world eight years now and I have not worked at a company that did not experience layoffs while I was there.

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And luckily, I was one of those people only one of those times at one of those companies, but it’s just it’s a fact of the world like organizations re

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Organized they realign their budgets and it’s going to happen if you work in marketing or digital or agency side, whatever your role is client side or on the service side it’s going to happen. And I think a lot of people underestimate.

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Just that drive to just put your head down and solve it when you’re in it because that’s, that’s really where I was. And I remember a whole lot of those two weeks because I was in such like a

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Know the word I’m thinking like tunnel vision.

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For really figuring out what came next. Like I just remember for two weeks. I just, I went to interviews I filled out applications. And I went running. That was a that was only for two weeks.

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But then I did end up getting hired for that first job. And then I had this the first job after the layoff. And I had this like kind of moment where I was like, well, I’m probably not going to be doing what I’ve been doing. So then the survival mode kicked back in because it’s like okay

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Let’s figure this out. Sink or swim and it ended up being fantastic and I had wonderful mentors and that was years ago now and those people are still friends and mentors to me.

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So yeah, I just, I think.

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There’s just something to be said for the tenacity and the stick to witness to just get through it.

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And you underestimate your ability to do it until you’re actually in it. And it’s like, oh, I’m looking back and I survived that. Yeah, sometimes.

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You’re, you’re tougher than you think. Sometimes when you think

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So I’ve actually I’ve only worked on the agency side of things, it’s really been

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Interesting my career path. I’ve always wondered on like going in house, how would it be different than agency life. I feel sometimes

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I have it, like, oh, being in house would be a little slow because I’m only working on one website instead of 50 and then sometimes I’m like hey I would actually want to get something done working on website over 50. What were some of your experiences going from agency to in house.

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Um, it is never slow

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That’s good.

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I’m I’m never bored. That’s great. I think it’s

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Politically, it’s different priorities wise different resources, it’s different.

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But it also depends on the company. There are a lot of agile companies out there that feel a lot more like an agency. And then there’s plenty of agencies that because of the vertical they work in or

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You know regulations within their specialist fields or even just like massive size. They’re not quick and they’re not full of a ton of variety. So

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I and I hate to generalize agency versus in house because really, they’re all they’re all different. You know, my second agency was completely different than my first and

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My internship agencies were completely different than my big kid agencies.

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But at the same time, I think there’s the one big difference is kind of your sense of ownership.

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At the end of the day when your client side. Usually the buck stops at you.

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And you have all this extra risk and accountability that you’re taking on when you’re, you’re the client and you’re the last line of defense against whatever it is that could be going wrong.

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But at the same time, you also like have a way more ownership. I mean, some agencies, you can’t even tell people who your clients are

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So if you do something really cool. You can’t necessarily even brag about it. Whereas on a daily basis. I get to to be openly proud of what we’ve got going on and I can point at that website or the several websites. I’m involved in and be like, guys, I did that. That’s my project.

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That’s great.

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That’s a, you’re right. I think I have a couple of his studies that are just a

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Somebody in this industry to this.

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Yeah well and if I’m

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I mean it’s it’s weird because obviously there’s cons to any job I anytime I talk to a young professional now. Like what’s your, your, you know, major life advice I’m always like, there’s no such thing as a perfect job.

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Every job has its giant pile of poop. And it’s about finding the company whose giant pile of poop smells the least bad to you.

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But they all have good fit.

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And ultimately, like

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I can deal with most piles of poo, but I think

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my train of thought. We started talking about poop. And now I’m thinking about buying diapers later.

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Well, the funny thing is I always say to people like, don’t get me wrong. I like my job, but like if I had a choice. I wouldn’t be working, I’d be off on some island or, you know, who knows who knows where. And I always say like

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Nobody is going to be on their deathbed, saying, I wish, I wish I’d worked more

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Yeah, so that actually is really, really good advice because like I’ve had

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Jobs that I’ve hated and I’ve had jobs that I love. And for me, like, there’s always a reason to find a problem with a job. If you want to find a problem with a job and in something that I’ve had to learn over the course of

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My kind of professional experiences like sometimes you just have to be happy with kind of the imperfections of the job and appreciate all of the good points. And I, being a glass half empty sort of person struggle with that sometimes

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In yes sometimes you just have to like let certain things go and just be happy with the good points of have a job.

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Well, and I think SEO any job has its own

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unique challenges. But I think when you work in an ambiguous field that maybe outsiders don’t understand very well like SEO. I think there’s an added layer of challenge that

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People in other fields just might might not fully grasp, like I have joked in the past about

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Have A DOG BARKING

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I’ve joked in the past about how

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You know, like a third of my job or something like that was just like, explaining things to people and getting getting buy in both the agency and client side and

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Sorry we so little sidebar about me. My husband and I have 26 pets, most of which are rescues

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And one of them is very opinionated right now.

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Whoa. That is a lot of pets.

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Yeah, do you want to do something with elder. Thank you.

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Um, my husband works from home to

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Us.

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Hey, where are we, yeah.

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We were talking about. What were we talking about Jeff i’d coming up attention. Sorry, I was marking the time second cut that out.

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A lot about poop.

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$28 whereas

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Let me get started let me get us started back out or started back up. So in reading your, your account I followed your account for a while and I didn’t realize until today.

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That, like, here I am thinking I tweet a lot, and I’ve got like a couple thousand tweets you you have 51,000

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Or 51 point 4000 tweets, which I was like holy shit, that’s a lot of tweets and then the, the one that caught my eye today.

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As I was doing a little, a little pre show research and I just want to read it because I think it’s funny.

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If anyone’s curious what it’s like to work in e commerce for for hallmark I got an email and the only content that showed in the preview outlook provided was snowman poop. And I had to ask about the snowman poop. So tell me about the snowman poop.

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Apparently there’s wind up toys out there that poop jelly beans and we will have a snowman shaped one as a stocking stuffer. I guess.

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Wow. So now I know what I’m getting my kids as a stocking stuffer this year.

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Yeah, last year we had reindeer. So I think this year, we have a snowman.

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Kids have the reindeer.

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You have

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Your poop.

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Or just know it’s Ranger the poops. Okay. Yeah.

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There’s a little brown jelly beans. Yeah, I assume this no man’s will be like my jelly beans.

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Never thought about that. I’m so sorry to the outside of all the poop. What’s it like to work at hallmark

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Really jolly Christmas tree started going up this week. But the biggest thing is Hallmark is a privately owned company and I have a very extensive NDA.

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So,

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You don’t get to share all that goodness

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Yes, it’s a must tell you that my job is absurd. A lot of this.

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Yeah, it sounds like a lot of it is based around I’m immediately thinking with my SEO brain on it’s based around probably optimizing for a lot of these these brands in these

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This kind of different, different series and obviously I’m a huge Harry Potter person.

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Which is weird, because I’m a 37 year old man, and I’m into Harry Potter. So it’s not the most

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What’s your house.

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Huh.

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What’s your house.

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Oh, of course. I’m Griffin door, of course.

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Oh,

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The hero. But although I will say, I took a test. A couple of years ago and it placed me in huff and puff. So I don’t know what that says about

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A hopeless. Yeah, we

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Are the house of hard work and loyalty and snacks and that is where I go. Haha.

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There you go, well, yeah, there you go, that I think that actually does describe me pretty well. So I kind of get it but always want to think of myself as a griffin door.

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Yeah, and are so yeah there’s, there’s a lot of work that goes into optimizing for our licenses. But one thing that people maybe don’t realize is, like, I’m starting work on Christmas and like March.

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Because we actually have highly collectible stuff that launches on the site in April, that are most passionate customers will go after

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And it’s hilarious because I’ll be sitting at my desk, listening to Christmas music in the middle of the spring, because what I’m working on, guys. Might as well get in the mood.

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Christmas in July. So let’s let’s save that, because for those people. We don’t often

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Talk about at the beginning of the show. What we’re going to deep dive on but Surprise, surprise, we’re going to deep dive on holiday and seasonal SEO, but before we do that, Jeff. What’s, what’s in the news this week.

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Cool. So first up, I’m not really brand new news, but it’s been something that’s been in the news, since it’s been released, and that is Bert, the new natural language processing.

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Algorithm. I guess we’ll call it that is brought into Google, Google said it was actually the biggest update to their algorithm since rank brain. I think that came out five years ago.

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But it’s been interesting because we haven’t really seen any changes. I look at MA’s cast and Alec have ruined.

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Everything actually looks better than normal because it’s usually like a little bit of a stormy day. It seems like it’s a nice spring weather with all those

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Kind of casters right now, it’s, it’s an interesting approach. I thought it was something Google has been doing forever anyway.

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Maybe not naming it Burt but they have really been always talking about, you know, they’re trying to find the information, trying to find the the context between everything

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Schema has been a great part of that like trying to add meaning to stuff it just seems like now we just have a fancier algorithm to do that.

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Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot of articles on it. And at the end of the day it’s it’s not something we can really optimize towards though I did read an article where New York Times says that they since birth has launched they’ve lost a lot of traffic.

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Not sure if that’s, I haven’t seen any of my clients or anything like that. I don’t know. Kelly. If you’ve seen anything since the launch of Burt positive or negative with it.

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Honestly, I haven’t seen significant change anywhere. Um,

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I i think the irony of New York Times, saying that losing traffic is virtually supposed to negatively impact 10% of all searches and the ones that are supposed to impact our websites that don’t write for human consumption as well.

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So it’s, it’s definitely interesting to see that, you know, in this first wave, you know, one of the most world renown media sources there is is is one of the ones discussing penalties, but

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I think we’ve still got a lot to see as far as Burt’s impacts. I think this this season is one of search volatility.

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In general, just because user habits are changing with holiday shopping and that sort of thing. So I think

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When things sort of settled down in the new year. I think will maybe see a more mature version of of bird arise, whether that’s through updates from Google, or just

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The new normal kind of settling in. Right. But I also am of the opinion that if you’re writing good content that’s people focused, you’re going to be fine. No.

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I agree. I think when we look at it. The reason we have a website right it’s, it’s, we really want to be able to write for our customers. And I always have a little thing where I

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To little nitpicky thing but like I don’t call my customers users and it’s I don’t say very for users. I’m like writing for customers and running for people because it just

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backs that up. I was like, who I’m actually writing for I wouldn’t be like a my, my favorite user, you know, it’s like

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You know, it’s a something dumb that I always kind of pick on that, but I really do feel like if you’re just not trying to write to rank and you’re actually trying to inform it’ll be the most beneficial thing you can do for your side. Yes, and

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And honestly, like that’s that’s the core of SEO to begin with. Like I part of what I evangelize.

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And all of the the arena as I touched from a search standpoint is

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SEO is actually a form of customer service. If you do it right, you are there to fulfill a need or answer a question and SEO is just making sure that you are detail oriented about how you position yourself to fulfill that need

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So as long as you keep that mindset, you are probably going to be fine with Burt that said

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We all know that major algorithm updates can cause some blips and some destabilize stations and like I said, I think we’re probably going to see more stable and mature version of it early next year.

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So the funny thing about Burt and for me about algorithm changes in general is like honestly I’ve only been a part of one website.

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Well, I shouldn’t say that, but one one where I knew for sure that it was an algorithm change and that Google had just throttle.

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The site down and then later on when they made an update it throttled it back up and like for me. I’m a very bottom line person and like

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I think about birth, and I think about in that instance when I know that it happened as a result of an algorithm update like what do I change.

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In my day to day what what changes. And for me, like, really, it’s not a damn thing about what I’ve been doing, like, I’m not like

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I see a lot of people talking about other people who are writing about optimizing for birth and I’m

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And I’m just like, Well, honestly, like what I what I feel like Burt is really intended to do is to really break up and understand queries and understand the intent behind the queries and

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Hopefully divvy up the results by, like, hey, this query is someone looking for looking for information this query is looking for

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Somebody looking for support this query is looking for somebody who is looking to transact or buy something and to serve up the results based on that. Well,

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If you’re doing your job as an SEO, you’re already looking in. Maybe not at the level of a computer or a machine, but you’re already looking at all of these keywords that you want to target and you’re already thinking about the intent behind them in terms of what kinds of

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Web pages are being surfaced up and if you’re not doing that you should

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But for me, because I’m already doing that. It’s like, well, it doesn’t change anything. It’s like rank brain. It didn’t really change anything for me. So like for me.

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It’s kind of like a big buzzword in the industry and it’s something that everybody is talking about. And I just am like, yeah, doesn’t really doesn’t really affect me.

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Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. And I think the writing’s on the wall for this for a while, um, you know, Google has been very vocal about putting end users first whether their customers or just information gatherers or

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People doing research projects. Someone recently asked on Twitter. When was the first time you ever use the internet and I talked about doing a research project on beluga whales and like second or third grade.

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Just a little aside, I like that story, um, the thing is like micro moments were such a like hot buzzword for a while there. And really, I think,

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Burt is essentially placing a logic behind understanding those micro moments more if anyone is shocked that Google introduced a new layer of AI that helps people match their intent with their search results a little bit better, they probably haven’t been in search very long, in my opinion.

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It’s funny because we always see all of these knee jerk reactions. Every time there’s a an algorithm update and very, very rarely

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Is anyone actually one of those brands that tanks are suddenly spikes.

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And usually when it happens, it ends up course correcting at some point in time anyways so it’s still about the long game of write good content. Have a good site give the content, the technical structure. It needs to be able to be crawled and found and indexed and served

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This is, you know, for lack of a better cliche. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And I think the Burt rollouts IS JUST TO TURN ON THE RACE ROUTE.

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I think

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The person who comes out the worst. And this is actually the character bird because they use this image and everything. And it’s going to really

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Use image search

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How many birds.

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birds, birds, never got this kind of publicity. Yeah, exactly.

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someone tweeted that there are waiting to see what the cost of the domain Ernie SEO would be like in a week or so because people are trying to go after it.

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Crazy SEO.

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And

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00:45:02.610 –> 00:45:15.090
Awesome, so do the other thing I haven’t news is kind of a just we talked about it before, but it’s actually officially rolled out now is the Google page, page report inside of Google Search Console.

332
00:45:16.320 –> 00:45:26.280
We’re really looking forward to this because I’ve really been trying to hone in a lot of my clients on PHP and just convince them like, hey, this is something at Google, like

333
00:45:26.820 –> 00:45:31.290
Here’s all these articles how Google says it’s important. Like it’s important for your customers. It’s important for search

334
00:45:31.770 –> 00:45:36.810
And still have a lot of customers who are happy, six, seven second load times

335
00:45:37.560 –> 00:45:48.330
And it’s like, no, no. We need to get better. And actually, it’s really hard to show when you have a million pages I give them like here’s a five page speed report or here’s 30 pages and

336
00:45:48.840 –> 00:45:54.930
It’s really hard to show a whole thing. When we look at, like, something like Google Analytics. We don’t have a great page report inside of there so

337
00:45:55.290 –> 00:46:02.460
I like the Google’s pushing this and kind of them, showing that they’re pushing it. You know, it helps me with my clients like look, now you can give us give

338
00:46:03.150 –> 00:46:15.810
Sorry, I’m getting tongue tied Google’s really like pushing this to show us that it’s even more important by giving it to webmasters and with anything make it an SEO factor and you have a slew of people that are going to push this just like

339
00:46:17.310 –> 00:46:25.710
Like everything else they put out like make your site HTTPS and just say it’s a ranking factor. Now SEOs are like making every one of their clients go HTTPS.

340
00:46:26.490 –> 00:46:32.730
It’s kind of amazing how we can push the whole internet to roll something out but page has been fairly tough.

341
00:46:33.120 –> 00:46:43.290
Because it’s not as easy as getting your certificate and making yourself, you know, secure, it’s a lot harder to accomplish. But some of the reports mean Jake were talking about earlier.

342
00:46:44.940 –> 00:46:50.310
I mean, I know this is experimental. I know it’s a first released, but there is a lot to be

343
00:46:51.510 –> 00:47:00.390
Wanted in the secret for it’s a, it’s great. We have a trend, but there’s not much else after that. So, Jake. I know you have an opinion on that.

344
00:47:00.840 –> 00:47:03.270
I have an opinion on everything SEO really

345
00:47:04.620 –> 00:47:11.040
Funny thing is like outside of my day to day job, like I’m so easy going and I don’t have an opinion, it’s like

346
00:47:11.580 –> 00:47:22.680
It’s like, hey, where do you want to go to dinner. I don’t care. And with SEO. It’s like, I have an opinion on every, every thing. And I’m now everybody’s got to hear it because I have a podcast. So let me tell you.

347
00:47:23.490 –> 00:47:24.750
The Page Speed reports.

348
00:47:26.400 –> 00:47:40.800
directionally they’re really awesome between both Google Search Console and what Screaming Frog has come out with the big problem. And the big, the big pain in the ass about page speed is just what Jeff said like when you’re trying to

349
00:47:42.120 –> 00:47:51.540
When you’re dealing with sites that are large and in some cases really large. There’s no way to give them enough of a representative sample of

350
00:47:52.500 –> 00:48:03.870
page load times to really kind of really make an impact. Right. If you give them 25 pages when they’ve got a million page website. Well, that’s like, that’s just dropping the hat.

351
00:48:04.560 –> 00:48:19.200
But in the same in the same breath, like you as a person. Don’t have the time to manually go through that many pages and pull down all of the metrics that tools like web page tests, Google page speed insights GT metrics.

352
00:48:19.860 –> 00:48:28.590
Lighthouse that they all provide they all provide really great data, but until this Google Search Console report and until things like Screaming Frog.

353
00:48:29.250 –> 00:48:38.970
It was really hard to go site wide and get a larger sweep of how page speed which trending on all pages of a website. Now here’s the here’s the flip side.

354
00:48:39.300 –> 00:48:51.720
I actually went in and tried to use the Google Search Console Page Speed reports today and I went so far as to send a screenshot to one of my clients who is struggling with Page Speed to say, hey,

355
00:48:52.500 –> 00:49:03.600
Here’s what Google is saying about your page speed and on mobile. I’m several thousand. I don’t even want to go into the page numbers but like 75% of your pages are deemed slow

356
00:49:04.260 –> 00:49:18.000
The other 25% are deemed average and zero percent of your pages are deemed fast and I sent them say go look at this, go look at this report and Search Console, Mr or Mrs client and

357
00:49:18.690 –> 00:49:27.450
I sent that and then like without absent mindedly like diving any further into the search Council reports. So that’s definitely my fault for not diving further before I sent it.

358
00:49:28.290 –> 00:49:33.390
I looked at Search Console and i and i clicked in like okay show more details.

359
00:49:33.870 –> 00:49:45.930
And I realized for the first time that like it is only showing a very small sample of if it’s saying like, you’ve got 5000 pages that are slow it’s giving you a sample of, like, five

360
00:49:46.410 –> 00:49:53.550
And it’s not even telling you what the issues are on a page on a page by page basis. So I was a little disappointed when I went in.

361
00:49:54.300 –> 00:50:09.750
It was a little bit of a wah wah moment and I’ll have surely have to explain that to the client when they go and look at it and don’t figure anything out based on the report, but it is directionally a move in the right step in the right direction. So I do

362
00:50:09.870 –> 00:50:12.480
Well, and I think the biggest thing that

363
00:50:14.160 –> 00:50:26.220
That report within Search Console and even the the paradigm shifts, we’re seeing in new search console in general is a new chapter in the relationship between Google and search engine strategist.

364
00:50:26.760 –> 00:50:33.510
Um, you know i i got started in SEO right as Google was taking away keyword data from Google Analytics.

365
00:50:34.230 –> 00:50:45.780
And even to this day I’ll meet with people and they’re like, well, what does our Google Analytics data say about our keywords. So I’m like, it’s not in there. It’s in Search Console, like I can get you keyword data.

366
00:50:46.380 –> 00:50:53.760
But it’s not in Google Analytics anymore because Google give us and Google taketh away. Well now it’s starting to give us more back

367
00:50:54.630 –> 00:51:02.310
And, you know, at one point in time we were all those people dropping and single URLs into the mobile page speed tester.

368
00:51:02.640 –> 00:51:12.720
And trying to use that to benchmark the page speed of our site and how we could perform and mobile and now you’ve got people like JOHN MUELLER everyone’s SEO dad who I love,

369
00:51:14.460 –> 00:51:23.640
Out there actually telling us how to answer our questions and solve problems and, you know, Danny Sullivan actually saying yes, there was an algorithm update

370
00:51:24.330 –> 00:51:41.640
So even if, at times, it feels like some of the reports aren’t as useful as we might like or you know there’s they’re still obviously experimental are in beta. At the same time, this is way better than the days when it’s like I don’t know my

371
00:51:42.030 –> 00:51:43.740
Query greatness.

372
00:51:43.950 –> 00:51:52.440
Yeah. And yeah, I feel like I feel like the, the, the little boy who complains on Christmas when he didn’t get enough great Christmas presents, but like

373
00:51:53.760 –> 00:52:09.330
I mean like if that’s actually that that theme aligns with what we’re talking about in a couple of seconds but directionally, like I said, it’s awesome. It really is. I’m glad I just can’t wait till like they add a little bit more behind the scenes and make me

374
00:52:10.560 –> 00:52:12.390
Allow me to be more lazy, I should say.

375
00:52:15.240 –> 00:52:18.270
Yeah, I’m definitely curious to see how it keeps evolving.

376
00:52:19.500 –> 00:52:26.550
Admittedly, pretty much every site I touch right now has load time issues.

377
00:52:27.570 –> 00:52:33.030
Or at least plenty of room for improvement, but I literally just sat on a webinar on Monday that was about

378
00:52:34.230 –> 00:52:36.810
WPS and amp and

379
00:52:37.890 –> 00:52:38.820
How

380
00:52:39.990 –> 00:52:55.620
Essentially, there’s no such thing as a perfect score for site speed. That’s always a work in progress. And even if you have almost instantaneous loading, there’s still going to be things that Google’s going to see and be like, hey, you can do that better.

381
00:52:57.660 –> 00:53:07.650
So I think it’s interesting, and obviously mobile really keeps the conversation on on Page Speed propelling forward.

382
00:53:09.540 –> 00:53:16.800
Don’t even get me started on how mobile cues end up impacting voice performance to since that’s on everyone’s mind as well.

383
00:53:17.520 –> 00:53:35.520
So we’re going to keep hearing about it. But I also think that we are still kind of immature in the space of Page Speed analysis and optimization were leaps and bounds ahead of where we were when I started in this field, but I think that’s like the next big

384
00:53:36.960 –> 00:53:41.190
Continuation of, like, what’s coming in tech SEO. Yeah.

385
00:53:43.260 –> 00:53:48.030
So Jeff, is that all the news, because I’m I’m chomping at the bit. I’ve got a story to tell.

386
00:53:49.050 –> 00:53:49.710
Tell the story.

387
00:53:50.640 –> 00:54:03.300
Alright, so we’re going to deep dive into holiday SEO and hopefully I can find some nice holiday music to delve over this section, maybe some Jingle Bells. But anyways,

388
00:54:04.680 –> 00:54:05.850
I have a story to tell.

389
00:54:07.290 –> 00:54:10.410
And it is, I think, very similar to

390
00:54:11.460 –> 00:54:19.140
Maybe an experience that Kelly might have been is not allowed to divulge as as much but my story is actually very

391
00:54:20.670 –> 00:54:21.720
Very much.

392
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:27.480
In here, I’m going to edit that out. I just snapped food. I never do that. Um,

393
00:54:29.040 –> 00:54:42.330
Let me start over. I’ve got a story to tell and it is a bout a client who their name rhymes with bakery barmes. Anybody know who they are. Maybe, maybe not.

394
00:54:43.050 –> 00:54:59.340
And they are very interesting in that they make 90% of their revenue between November and December and basically their entire year is spent planning for a two month period.

395
00:54:59.760 –> 00:55:02.760
They’re busy period where they make all of their all of their money.

396
00:55:03.570 –> 00:55:23.910
And one of the interesting challenges, working with them that we ran into. And we worked with them. And this is a previous agency we work with them for many, many years, and I wasn’t always on the account. I was on it for three years before I ended up leaving leaving that ad agency and

397
00:55:24.930 –> 00:55:33.060
The problem was that they wanted a an SEO strategy and a paid strategy and it made sense for paid, but not SEO.

398
00:55:34.050 –> 00:55:42.150
Where they turn the lights on in September and when the season was over, they turn the lights off and they stopped investing

399
00:55:42.480 –> 00:55:50.490
And they essentially went dark. And when the new season came back around. They turn the lights on, turn the lights off.

400
00:55:51.120 –> 00:55:57.210
So on the paid side. Like I said, this is a great strategy because like Why waste all your money at the time of year when it doesn’t matter.

401
00:55:57.600 –> 00:56:03.150
But on the SEO side. This was a horrible strategy and no amount of us telling them that

402
00:56:03.810 –> 00:56:12.240
made an impact and till I got on the account and keep in mind I was saying the same thing. I didn’t do anything special. They just for whatever reason, were more ready to hear it.

403
00:56:12.600 –> 00:56:20.670
When I was saying the same thing. And they eventually eventually change their ways. But what would happen is, every single year.

404
00:56:21.210 –> 00:56:36.870
Our poor SEO teams would would be able to start in September and they’re they’re real kind of drop dead date for getting any they really honestly had about a month to a month and a half to get any recommendations that they wanted

405
00:56:37.710 –> 00:56:44.730
Into the system in time to make it on the site because implementation takes a long time. Well, the problem is

406
00:56:45.540 –> 00:56:52.620
Every year, because the this particular client didn’t invest the resources with turnover.

407
00:56:52.890 –> 00:57:03.330
Because you don’t have consistent work you’re working in an agency. They slot you where the work is so it would be new resources, they would be performing an all new evaluation. Every year the results.

408
00:57:03.690 –> 00:57:14.760
Would go up and as soon as soon as the season would would end, they would go down and you’d pretty much have to rebuild the damn every single year.

409
00:57:15.180 –> 00:57:23.610
And if you’re a if you’re a client and or if you’re somebody is working with an agency hell if you’re not working with an agency.

410
00:57:24.510 –> 00:57:35.700
I highly recommend against this and I highly recommend implementing what we just honestly we just called it an evergreen always on SEO strategy for the sake of them, but like a normal strategy.

411
00:57:36.420 –> 00:57:46.500
And luckily, we find it like we were we somehow magically ended up helping them, we were successful with them, and especially successful

412
00:57:47.130 –> 00:57:55.230
During my time on the on the account in terms of driving incremental gains in revenue. But the most success for me was when they decided

413
00:57:55.710 –> 00:57:57.990
To leave the lights on in January.

414
00:57:58.470 –> 00:58:10.350
And actually allow us to work ahead and have time to do things like work on technical and get those things in there already full development queue to launch evergreen content or

415
00:58:10.590 –> 00:58:18.060
Pages like Black Friday Cyber Monday and for oh by the way all of the other holidays that were big for them and to tell them

416
00:58:18.690 –> 00:58:29.730
Don’t turn those pages off when the season was over, because that happened to they would rebuild in a brand new black friday page every single year instead of just allowing it to

417
00:58:30.270 –> 00:58:38.040
Exist, they would, they would delete it and build a new one every year. Again, it’s not advisable. It doesn’t allow the page to age over the course of time.

418
00:58:38.340 –> 00:58:47.490
And it’s like sending a newborn out into the world. Every single year. So anyways, that’s my story. We were eventually successful we got them to keep the lights on.

419
00:58:47.790 –> 00:58:56.700
And that gave us a lot more runtime, which gave us a lot more opportunity to be successful. But now that that’s the end of my story. I’m going to let you guys jump in.

420
00:58:57.480 –> 00:58:59.070
Yeah, well. Oh.

421
00:58:59.130 –> 00:59:00.000
Did you want to go.

422
00:59:00.540 –> 00:59:11.520
Good um you know I mentioned earlier, it’s a marathon, not a sprint in regards to SEO that has to do with like the life cycle of content as well.

423
00:59:12.660 –> 00:59:30.630
One of the, the biggest struggles that any SEO has his lead time making sure that your content is online long enough before it’s actually supposed to be seen by customers for it to have built up at least a little bit of juice. And if you’re starting from scratch every single year.

424
00:59:31.890 –> 00:59:40.650
Google has no idea who you are or why it should care about what your content has whereas if you’re recycling the same landing pages, year after year.

425
00:59:41.670 –> 00:59:44.880
Google is familiar with you knows what you have

426
00:59:46.050 –> 00:59:51.870
You know there’s there’s authority assigned to that page within the domain, it costs you.

427
00:59:53.190 –> 01:00:11.070
Something about each acronym here because that’s another thing that everyone wants to talk about right now. Um, but you really don’t have the ability to build that rapport page by page with with Google, if you’re starting fresh every single year. So I think

428
01:00:12.270 –> 01:00:21.900
I’m actually really impressed that you’ve asked them to change their way is because a lot of a lot of clients are figure that out. Like, I still know clients at my old shop because

429
01:00:22.380 –> 01:00:30.990
Everyone’s still talks, um, that really take for granted the ability to keep evergreen content going throughout the year.

430
01:00:31.800 –> 01:00:44.400
And then, you know, when their, their peak season starts up there like little, why isn’t traffic picking up on me because you haven’t done anything to rank well for the last nine months. Yeah.

431
01:00:44.490 –> 01:01:04.020
And it’s really important. Like, I looked up some stats and like last Cyber Monday from last year was $7.9 billion dollars in online sales. That was just one day overall last year holiday sales were up 17.4% at like 120 $2 billion sold online.

432
01:01:05.100 –> 01:01:12.540
You know it’s if there’s so much competition. You have to do everything that you need to be able to you know to to do that. I have a client who

433
01:01:13.410 –> 01:01:28.110
Takes it down every year takes down their Black Friday takes down their Cyber Monday takes down everything comes back the next year with a different URL. Every time I don’t know until like four days before Cyber Monday, but it’s going to be. I try to get into that.

434
01:01:29.130 –> 01:01:35.040
Because I’m like I’m like I’m waiting to do a redirect and if I’m lucky if I get the redirect and sometimes

435
01:01:36.060 –> 01:01:49.350
Compared to another kind of major I think how major you are in retail that like people do see that and you know where they’re Black Friday is up all year. And they just take down the ads and put like come sealskin next year.

436
01:01:50.490 –> 01:01:57.930
Start making tweaks in that in July and August. Just to kind of make the crawlers know that that page is active and

437
01:01:58.440 –> 01:02:05.640
And we hit it with the big, you know, the big updates when it comes time for that. But, and then they see like even in the summertime.

438
01:02:06.390 –> 01:02:16.680
That page does very well. It’s interesting that you know you don’t think people are looking for Black Friday stuff, but they land on that page because it was just looking for deals, you know, so, um,

439
01:02:16.710 –> 01:02:22.950
It’s really fascinating. I was as much as where we’re focused in on on retail right now. I think

440
01:02:23.670 –> 01:02:40.320
It’s relevant to literally any vertical. So like in my agriculture days. If you haven’t worked in that space. You would never think of it, but there’s actually like a heightened season for cattle vaccinations.

441
01:02:42.150 –> 01:02:42.750
Yeah.

442
01:02:44.490 –> 01:02:53.700
And that’s those seasons align with when do farmers and ranchers have their calves born and when are they going to be needing to vaccinate their

443
01:02:54.120 –> 01:03:14.820
Little baby calves that need to be kept healthy and take care of. So, I mean, we can we can talk about seasonality in regards to all the crazy people standing in line on Black Friday, but honestly like these lessons about evergreen content, keeping your pages up they’re relevant to everyone.

444
01:03:15.870 –> 01:03:29.520
The relevant to the mom and pop shops selling candles that they make in their kitchen, they’re relevant to big box department stores, although some of them specifically a brand that has a bull’s eye logo.

445
01:03:30.690 –> 01:03:37.770
Is too big to fail. They could do everything wrong still outperform everyone else on on Google, but

446
01:03:39.030 –> 01:03:52.470
It’s really about understanding when your seasons hit and planning the rest of your year essentially around future proofing yourself before that season is even on the horizon.

447
01:03:54.210 –> 01:04:02.190
So how, how far in advance do you recommend planning for this. If you’re a seasonal business.

448
01:04:03.870 –> 01:04:09.300
I typically shoot for three months. If I can

449
01:04:09.840 –> 01:04:10.920
To have content.

450
01:04:11.340 –> 01:04:12.210
On the site.

451
01:04:13.590 –> 01:04:20.130
And if it’s a net new page my minimum is a month, unless it’s an absolute urgency.

452
01:04:20.430 –> 01:04:23.550
And my question is, why can you expand on the why.

453
01:04:23.820 –> 01:04:25.260
Oh yeah, um,

454
01:04:27.090 –> 01:04:33.690
So back when I actually started working on that sort of one to three month window.

455
01:04:34.800 –> 01:04:41.100
There was still the understanding that sometimes it took up to a month for Google to really fully index new content.

456
01:04:41.670 –> 01:04:59.790
After you’ve uploaded it, but that was before things like crawl requests were readily available now that 123 month window is partially to ensure that on the client side. People have plenty of time to see it in production and react before it’s relevant.

457
01:05:01.830 –> 01:05:07.980
There’s like even even now for a variety of the sites I touch. There are

458
01:05:09.150 –> 01:05:13.530
scrambles happening last minute after it’s already in pre production to make sure that

459
01:05:14.310 –> 01:05:27.450
This little otter, and is taking care of correctly. So that’s part of the reason the other part is it just gives me peace of mind that it’s out there can be seen it’s collecting a little bit of juice from Google.

460
01:05:28.830 –> 01:05:41.130
I know that it’s well documented and site maps. It’s not being accidentally blocked. It’s really just a safety net. At this point, wondering if maybe it’s a security blanket of sorts. I get that extra

461
01:05:41.610 –> 01:05:57.510
Month that I probably don’t need in there to feel better about the position we’re in in prep, but at the same time I would rather be ahead of the game and early and feeling comfortable, then you know crunching it in the final weeks before game day

462
01:05:57.840 –> 01:06:00.870
Right. You’re giving Google time to digest it also right it’s

463
01:06:01.050 –> 01:06:02.460
Going to be crowded indexed.

464
01:06:03.000 –> 01:06:07.740
But then the get through all those you know algorithms to help it gain that value.

465
01:06:08.190 –> 01:06:13.230
Yeah, so it gives birth time to think about it in between dealing with his pigeons.

466
01:06:14.430 –> 01:06:15.240
My goodness.

467
01:06:17.580 –> 01:06:28.410
Yeah I it’s not holiday related, but I have had a couple of experiences recently where in here’s, here’s the thing. Like, people still

468
01:06:29.190 –> 01:06:35.250
Especially non SEOs struggle to grasp this concept with respect to things they want to rank for.

469
01:06:35.880 –> 01:06:43.890
Sometimes, you actually have not sometimes all the time. You have to have a page targeting that specific thing and that’s that’s a struggle for for

470
01:06:44.190 –> 01:06:52.560
For some people, so when when we’re talking about holidays. You want to rank for Black Friday. You better have a black friday page want to rank for Cyber Monday, same thing.

471
01:06:52.950 –> 01:07:03.750
Outside of the holiday, the traditional Christmas holiday New Year’s season, all these other holidays to like you want to rank for them. You better have a page for them.

472
01:07:04.500 –> 01:07:10.440
But the thing I was going to say is that it does take time, like I’ve been slowly but watching

473
01:07:11.430 –> 01:07:17.490
A couple of new pages that were really important for some, some of my clients to different clients.

474
01:07:17.820 –> 01:07:26.790
And I’ve been watching the hrs report because it gives you a nice little trend line where you can watch the the rankings and see over the course of like two years.

475
01:07:27.390 –> 01:07:36.630
What URLs may have ranked in the, in the past, for any given keyword and these really important phrases for their business really high transaction stuff on

476
01:07:37.320 –> 01:07:47.670
This page launched launched in late summer and it’s just been slowly but surely meandering its way up towards the top. And it’s taken a couple of months for them to get

477
01:07:48.270 –> 01:08:05.460
From where they were, which was nowhere. And in, in the case of a lot of businesses. If you’re creating a new page you’re creating it for a reason because you’re nowhere and you want to be somewhere. It’s taken months to just meander their way up to the top so it takes time.

478
01:08:06.510 –> 01:08:22.110
We tend to refer to that process as the pages maturing um, you know, even if the code and the content doesn’t change one bit in the two months that it’s sitting on our site just doing before it seasonally relevant

479
01:08:23.130 –> 01:08:39.450
It’s still growing into itself. It’s still growing into Google’s understanding of it and you know it doesn’t hurt if people kind of stumble upon it, and suddenly there’s traffic stats that help Google understand that it’s an authoritative and useful page.

480
01:08:40.590 –> 01:08:53.700
So yeah I I tend to err on the side of get the content out there early and just make sure that it’s situated in such a way that if you don’t want it to be seen yet, but Google can still find it your bases are covered.

481
01:08:55.200 –> 01:08:55.590
So, yeah.

482
01:08:56.250 –> 01:09:04.080
If you’re, if you’re a technical SEO to and you’re working with your developers is especially if you’re in a seasonal business.

483
01:09:05.490 –> 01:09:17.430
They’ve got a lot of shit going on and they have a probably a roadmap that they probably built eight months ago that you’re trying to get into. So you need to be mindful of that, and

484
01:09:17.790 –> 01:09:27.570
Not only that, like if you want technical changes done. You got to know they’re not coming during the holiday because they’re going to go into what’s called a code freeze.

485
01:09:28.410 –> 01:09:37.260
For those probably starting before Black Friday the site will be locked down and the only things that will matter are making sure that the shopping cart stays up

486
01:09:37.890 –> 01:09:50.760
By the way, you should track that to to make sure that there’s no abandonment issues that was a big problem for the client, whose story I told at the beginning of this where people were dropping out of the cart and they didn’t know why.

487
01:09:51.930 –> 01:09:54.180
But luckily they had tracked the dropouts.

488
01:09:55.980 –> 01:10:06.780
But yeah, if you want technical things done those things need to be done many, many months before they need to be. You need to be working with the developer to get those in queue, because I can promise you.

489
01:10:07.260 –> 01:10:13.650
If you want technical things done. It ain’t getting done in the holiday season. No way. No way. Nope. No.

490
01:10:14.100 –> 01:10:23.850
And it’s also a good time and we were talking about Page Speed before but page speed will see each capacity is a big thing, right, because we want to have fast pages, but

491
01:10:24.540 –> 01:10:36.990
Black Friday sales. If you have a good sale, it can bring it used to be the go to Digg effect when you use to get your story on the front page of Digg and everyone come to your site and crash your site. That’s the last thing you want to happen to have your website during a holiday.

492
01:10:38.190 –> 01:10:42.150
gig is still thing. It’s not the same thing. There is no more dig effect.

493
01:10:42.210 –> 01:10:42.570
I used to

494
01:10:43.470 –> 01:10:47.400
Yeah, no I we used to have battles that we can get on the front page of it, which

495
01:10:47.730 –> 01:10:51.900
There is still a Reddit affect the read it as well.

496
01:10:52.380 –> 01:10:58.200
Oh, great. I run a forum on there. So it’s our subreddit tech SEO subreddit, get it out there.

497
01:10:58.440 –> 01:11:18.720
Oh, yeah. So it’s, uh, but yeah. Now there’s a big push that way. So wouldn’t be able to make sure you can handle the load, because I do have one client in general who caps it at like 10,000 users and then they have this nice little message that says we’re sorry we’re our systems are full.

498
01:11:19.950 –> 01:11:27.060
We didn’t this queue and you just sit there and wait until goes through. It’s not a good experience. I don’t think especially like since

499
01:11:27.510 –> 01:11:36.690
You mean you can throw money at the situation and get more server space and things like that. We don’t want anyone to not get to the products.

500
01:11:37.140 –> 01:11:42.000
Sometimes that might help with one of those like if you’re running a crazy sale and you know your number.

501
01:11:42.810 –> 01:11:55.710
800 line. You know, it might be like, something like that. But that’s not their goal. Their goal is they don’t want their servers to crash. So they put that in place, but I’m constantly telling them. Now we need to get that fixed for the holidays or we’re gonna have a bad holiday.

502
01:11:55.860 –> 01:12:00.720
Do you ever notice clients, not knowing when their site goes down in holiday.

503
01:12:03.360 –> 01:12:15.030
I notice I have a uptime robot on all my clients and many of my clients are some of them were thankful. They are very like I find out it goes down and let them know right away.

504
01:12:15.570 –> 01:12:22.830
It goes to my Slack channel and I just read it over to them. I did have one client who was not happy their development teams are happy.

505
01:12:23.280 –> 01:12:34.620
Because there’s so it was always going down, and I kept telling my client, which was not the tech team and the tech team kept on going like, why is the site down just keeps finding this so they asked me to stop monitoring it.

506
01:12:35.640 –> 01:12:40.260
Then they like we know we have problems. I’m just like, yeah, I stopped in quotes.

507
01:12:41.610 –> 01:12:47.940
But they’ve they have fixed all their problems in that way, but it was one of those where they just didn’t want me being the tattletale all the time, but

508
01:12:48.210 –> 01:12:56.820
For the most part, everyone is happy that a monitoring it. I even tell them, because it’s free. Go to uptime robot monitor your own site. That way you know it’s down because

509
01:12:57.240 –> 01:13:05.580
That’s the worst thing we can have. I mean, SEO side it’s for your clients, getting to a site that’s broken and it takes 30 minutes to get back up during the peak sale so

510
01:13:06.600 –> 01:13:11.340
So that’s actually a tool. I was not familiar with prior so I’m gonna go check that out. Thank you.

511
01:13:11.490 –> 01:13:16.260
Yeah, no. It’s awesome, it’s a it’s like I said it’s a free tool, you get. I think it’s free for 50

512
01:13:17.730 –> 01:13:31.050
Domains or URLs at a time, and I can connect to slack through it. If you use Slack do a hook and I get it right. I’ve like a for all my clients. I have also a Slack channel says, are they down

513
01:13:31.740 –> 01:13:35.820
So it gives me an alert. And anyone who’s on the team can join that and just say, like, if it’s down or up

514
01:13:36.690 –> 01:13:38.310
So it’s awesome, right. So,

515
01:13:38.580 –> 01:13:44.010
Speaking of sites going down in the holidays. Do you guys have any holiday horror stories.

516
01:13:49.980 –> 01:13:51.390
Don’t, don’t, don’t.

517
01:13:54.390 –> 01:14:02.880
Say, none that come to mind. But I think part of that may be because I’ve been up since 3am

518
01:14:06.210 –> 01:14:14.640
Yeah, don’t do that. Yeah, I feel like the holidays just end up being just this blur to me.

519
01:14:16.350 –> 01:14:20.130
And now, even more so because some planning a birthday party now.

520
01:14:21.870 –> 01:14:23.460
But yeah, it’s, it’s

521
01:14:26.100 –> 01:14:34.230
Maybe all that survival mode training from life’s disappointments. It’s what gets me up for I’m in it, just get through it.

522
01:14:34.560 –> 01:14:39.960
It’s the busy season. So I asked that question because I do have a story yet again. I have a story.

523
01:14:41.400 –> 01:14:42.450
Wasn’t my client.

524
01:14:43.620 –> 01:14:53.580
This happened probably six years ago that business, surprise, surprise, like they went bankrupt in we were doing at a previous agency some work for

525
01:14:54.900 –> 01:15:03.570
A retail a retail client competitor. I would say a Best Buy not Best Buy, but a competitor. Best Buy and

526
01:15:05.340 –> 01:15:13.410
We were doing quite well organic traffic was up things were going really, really well. Problem was business was still going downhill. Like there’s

527
01:15:13.830 –> 01:15:22.140
Only so much you can you can do with your marketing the that sometimes you just can’t make the business things work.

528
01:15:22.830 –> 01:15:37.260
No matter how well your how well you’re doing. But in this particular case, and I really feel for the team that was on this account because it really ruined their entire their entire holiday result. The

529
01:15:38.610 –> 01:15:41.550
I think it was the CMO I can’t exactly remember who it was.

530
01:15:42.570 –> 01:15:49.650
They had a they had a concern that the site was going to go down because it was getting too much organic traffic.

531
01:15:50.220 –> 01:16:05.730
So what did they do they disallowed it on purpose in the robots file on purpose. And luckily our team caught it. But our team didn’t catch it right away our team caught it maybe like a day or two days after it happened and got it rectified but like

532
01:16:07.110 –> 01:16:11.820
That type of stuff, especially if you really depend on the holidays. I mean, if you’re

533
01:16:12.480 –> 01:16:22.200
A business that depends on online for any any amount of revenue like that type of stuff costs in this case probably did cost people their jobs so

534
01:16:22.710 –> 01:16:28.890
It was crazy man. It was crazy. I felt so bad for for them because like they were doing great. And they were a great team.

535
01:16:29.490 –> 01:16:43.170
And then somebody steps in and does this without without their without their consent or approval or knowledge and completely tanked. The results for that entire season so like they were pretty bummed out about it, but that definitely happened and it just

536
01:16:44.070 –> 01:16:55.230
For me, illustrated the importance of continuing to educate people and continuing to educate the clients. And I just think I still don’t even understand the logic. Like, I feel

537
01:16:55.230 –> 01:16:56.850
Like that would be a good problem to have.

538
01:16:56.910 –> 01:17:02.070
But for whatever reason. Yeah, no man they did it. That’s a true story just

539
01:17:02.220 –> 01:17:03.660
Stop your server processes.

540
01:17:03.990 –> 01:17:05.190
You

541
01:17:06.600 –> 01:17:10.230
I just had my mouth just hanging

542
01:17:10.290 –> 01:17:12.900
Okay, sorry.

543
01:17:13.050 –> 01:17:15.000
Yeah, that really happened.

544
01:17:16.320 –> 01:17:26.850
No, I haven’t had any major ones, the one that would have almost been just like yours, where I had a client like tweak their application firewall.

545
01:17:27.510 –> 01:17:38.820
And we didn’t know that. And all of a sudden, like in Search Console, all these 500 Irby just started popping up literally a week before Black Friday and we’re just

546
01:17:39.690 –> 01:17:47.940
digging and digging and digging and I’m just like, what did you guys change nothing would something changed on the website because we’re having all these and after kind of digging it.

547
01:17:49.650 –> 01:17:58.500
One of my favorite things I like to do is run Screaming Frog get ridiculous amount of speeds, so that I get kicked off the website and I noticed that happens and

548
01:17:59.640 –> 01:18:07.410
It kicked me off and give me the same error. I was seeing and Search Console. And I was like, oh, did you change your protection or your firewall like

549
01:18:07.800 –> 01:18:17.220
Oh yeah, we were tweaking some of the settings in it was like, well, you’re blocking Google because they they allow Google through but they blocked the amount of

550
01:18:18.690 –> 01:18:29.370
The speed at which somebody can come through on the site. So they’re basically went from saying you can have 500 clicks a minute to 100 clicks a minute because they wanted to prevent BOTS FROM scraping their pricing.

551
01:18:30.480 –> 01:18:38.550
But at the same time, Google came through. I think the magic number was like 300 you know times a minute or something like that. So we tweaked it to like to 400

552
01:18:38.970 –> 01:18:51.780
And actually, everything cleared up. So it’s kind of like saving the day before the issue happened, but that was almost like one of my again a nightmare of a decision there. But besides that, like,

553
01:18:53.070 –> 01:19:02.940
I see paid side get crushed during holidays. I’m or because we get into code freeze and I’m like all right i’m planning for 2020 and then I see people

554
01:19:02.970 –> 01:19:08.760
Like crying and the quality time like that night and day. Like, I feel bad. This is one reason I’m not

555
01:19:10.200 –> 01:19:20.580
I’m never mad to be on the SEO side, especially because like they literally have to schedule themselves to where like on Thanksgiving. They have people that are on call and on duty.

556
01:19:21.180 –> 01:19:31.500
At all points in the day. Black Friday, whether you’re off you, and you’re not able to enjoy that time with your family because they have to have people on call all day every day.

557
01:19:32.310 –> 01:19:39.000
In Kelly. I like, I wonder, you know, especially with your work with hallmark if if that’s the type of schedule, you have to maintain. That’s crazy.

558
01:19:40.410 –> 01:19:45.750
Yeah, yeah. And we have multiple overnight pushes

559
01:19:46.770 –> 01:19:47.340
So,

560
01:19:48.360 –> 01:19:57.840
This is the first job I’ve ever had. Where I have overnight phone what conference calls, and it’s fine. It is what it is like a roll said it’s part of the territory.

561
01:19:58.860 –> 01:20:09.900
But there’s definitely this this idea that you do need to be readily available, maybe don’t be where you can’t get to a computer for several hours so like

562
01:20:10.530 –> 01:20:28.470
When we’re driving back to Illinois for my family Christmas and December, I’m probably going to want to make sure that I have like a Wi Fi hotspot with me so that while my husband is driving. I can make changes to robots TXT files or something if there’s an emergency.

563
01:20:29.790 –> 01:20:33.300
But that said, we also kind of fall into certain

564
01:20:36.840 –> 01:20:51.840
Pattern of auto time of year I’m you know I’m not completely hands off for SEO, but it’s more break fix triage and troubleshooting then really active strategy so

565
01:20:53.280 –> 01:21:01.830
Let me ask you this. I’ve got two more questions and then because you’ve been up since 3am want to send you on your way for the for the weekend.

566
01:21:03.480 –> 01:21:19.620
This kind of discussion brings to light a very important point. And you being the mom of a soon to be one year old and myself being a parent of three kids under six one is going to be six months old ones having a birthday this weekend. Yay.

567
01:21:21.780 –> 01:21:24.630
How important is work life balance for you. And how do you maintain it.

568
01:21:25.620 –> 01:21:32.400
Oh so important when I was talking about my layoff experience. I mentioned that

569
01:21:33.210 –> 01:21:48.270
I wasn’t always good about separating who I was. I my identity from my career. And honestly, becoming a mom has kind of it really gave me the final push I needed to to be able to kind of segment my life a little bit more

570
01:21:49.500 –> 01:21:55.350
Obviously as an as a newlywed I put more emphasis on family time with my husband.

571
01:21:57.480 –> 01:22:07.020
But there’s something about the only having two hours a day between the end of the workday, and the baby’s bed time to get to be a family together.

572
01:22:07.440 –> 01:22:21.420
That really makes you set more solid boundaries and work life balance isn’t. I don’t even really necessarily like that term because the two never fully separate it’s about

573
01:22:23.460 –> 01:22:35.070
It’s about finding a way to mesh them together. That’s constructive for you and allows you to care for the people you care about, but still fulfill your responsibilities to your work.

574
01:22:35.640 –> 01:22:43.440
And sometimes that means I get the baby down and then I open my laptop and I’m working again or it means

575
01:22:44.190 –> 01:22:49.290
You know, leaving work earlier coming in late because there’s something going on with daycare.

576
01:22:50.070 –> 01:22:57.900
Like he had his little Halloween party at school. A few weeks ago and I got to go and see him and a little Halloween parade.

577
01:22:58.200 –> 01:23:10.440
dresses and he was like, of course, I’m going to leave work early to go do that. But sometimes that means that you know the the late night time gets redirected it’s really just about

578
01:23:11.700 –> 01:23:23.790
Setting your boundaries, making sure that you’re in the trenches with good people because balance of any sort, is not a possibility. If you don’t have good peers and colleagues that have your back.

579
01:23:25.980 –> 01:23:26.460
Yeah.

580
01:23:27.570 –> 01:23:34.350
But I mean, working in the field. We work in anytime you work in digital there’s a chance that you’re going to have to be on call or

581
01:23:35.910 –> 01:23:36.360
You know,

582
01:23:38.010 –> 01:23:43.380
Some issues going to arise and suddenly you know your weekends gone because

583
01:23:44.400 –> 01:23:46.500
You’re fixing something that broke suddenly

584
01:23:49.170 –> 01:23:59.250
So you just you make it work. And do you take care of yourself and you prioritize your own well being and the well being of your family. My biggest

585
01:24:01.350 –> 01:24:11.040
My biggest like pet peeve with this is people who don’t think that they need to take care of themselves. In addition to taking care of everyone they care about.

586
01:24:13.290 –> 01:24:26.130
I’m a big advocate of you can’t pour out of an empty cup. So in addition to like this two hours and evening. Those are family time. There’s also a certain element of like

587
01:24:26.580 –> 01:24:33.630
Okay. Hey, since my husband’s already up and what’s the baby. I can sleep in a little bit because I need some self care or

588
01:24:34.080 –> 01:24:42.690
You know, here’s a half an hour to take a shower and like just sit for a little while. Just because we’re, we are in this crunch and

589
01:24:43.470 –> 01:25:01.740
If you’re, if you’re not striking that balance of like yourself, your work, your family, and any other obligations, you get burnt out, and then you stop enjoying what you do. Right. And I love what I do. I don’t want it to feel like a chore.

590
01:25:03.630 –> 01:25:05.400
And speaking of loving what you do.

591
01:25:06.720 –> 01:25:14.670
I’m sure that you do this with with people that you work with, especially new people. But one way that I want to start ending this podcast and we did it.

592
01:25:15.540 –> 01:25:27.930
A lot last season. We haven’t done it so much this season is asking the question, if you were to give advice to somebody getting into the industry literally today. This second, what would you say to them.

593
01:25:35.550 –> 01:25:36.660
Relationships.

594
01:25:38.790 –> 01:25:42.690
We may be working on robots all day and we

595
01:25:44.040 –> 01:25:53.190
May interface. Most of the time through computers, but everyone you work with as a person just trying to do their best and

596
01:25:55.350 –> 01:26:05.520
The partners that I’ve worked with at any job freelancing day job agency in house as a client as a vendor.

597
01:26:07.980 –> 01:26:18.690
The end of the day, the most successful campaigns. The most successful sites companies, whatever are the ones with the people that really have each other’s backs.

598
01:26:19.440 –> 01:26:30.090
And understand the value that each other, bring to the table. So I may be the only SEO strategist in my company, but I’m not alone.

599
01:26:31.860 –> 01:26:45.270
I’m I make a point to surround myself with people way smarter than me and I learned from them and I have all of these friends on Twitter because, of course, you make friends on Twitter. When you have 51,000 tweets.

600
01:26:48.750 –> 01:27:02.220
But like really really having strong relationships and being open to relationships with curiosity and empathy. That to me is the secret to

601
01:27:04.080 –> 01:27:12.330
Thriving in your career. And that looks different for everyone, but it comes down to being a decent human

602
01:27:14.430 –> 01:27:22.140
It’s, it’s funny that is different. It’s actually really amazing advice, but it is so different than what other people have

603
01:27:23.370 –> 01:27:25.740
Have said, and it’s very, very true.

604
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:39.450
I mean I, if you think about literally everything that FCO ends up impacting across the the stream of a company’s evolution.

605
01:27:40.620 –> 01:27:52.650
Like if you’re working in retail. The way that product is name named ends up impacting your website. So then should you be building relationships with the people that name the product.

606
01:27:54.210 –> 01:28:04.860
You know, depending on how your structured, you may be doing the keyword integration yourself or you may be having to train copywriters to do their own keyword research, in which case

607
01:28:05.190 –> 01:28:14.070
They need to trust you and have a good relationship with you or if you’re an agency side or freelancer working with clients.

608
01:28:16.080 –> 01:28:23.970
If they don’t trust you. You’re never going to get anything done, especially if they’re handing over the keys to the whole kingdom to you so

609
01:28:24.510 –> 01:28:35.520
It’s, it’s really about relationships and for all of the digital we do at the end of the day it’s another person sitting up that other computer. Absolutely.

610
01:28:35.610 –> 01:28:50.850
everybody’s always everybody’s always dealing with something and empathy. Empathy is so hard in it, but such a valuable skill and relationships, it’s just good life advice. That’s what we’re. That’s what we’re given here on the page to podcasts life advice.

611
01:28:51.930 –> 01:28:58.800
Anyways, Kelly Thank you for coming on. I we totally appreciate it. We know you you’ve

612
01:28:59.940 –> 01:29:09.420
Extra appreciate it, in light of the fact that you’ve been up since 3am but really appreciate it was great conversation. Thank you so much and go. Have a good weekend.

613
01:29:10.050 –> 01:29:10.830
Gonna happen.

614
01:29:11.880 –> 01:29:12.300
So much

615
01:29:13.740 –> 01:29:14.730
This is great.

616
01:29:16.110 –> 01:29:16.590
Thank you.

#28: Martin Splitt

We chat with Martin Splitt, Webmaster Trends Analyst at Google about his background, how he got to Google, talk challenges, deep-dive into Javascript and more.

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