Jacob Stoops

#32: Ashley Berman Hale & Jamie Alberico

Episode Summary

We have an amazing episode in store for you today as we have not one, but two guests!

In today’s episode, we chat with Ashley Berman Hale, Director of Technical SEO consulting and professional services at Deep Crawl, as well as Jamie Alberico, Technical SEO consultant at Not a Robot.

We had such a free-flowing conversation that we ditched the traditional format (as you will soon find out) and we covered a ton of topics including:

  • Ashley and Jamie’s backgrounds and career progressions into SEO
  • Their amazing friendship
  • Why they love technical SEO
  • Dealing with impostor syndrome and self doubt
  • Public speaking and writing
  • The conference circuit

And so much more.

Episode Transcript

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Jacob Stoops: Alright. Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops we are back for another episode of the page to podcast and today we have a very, very special episode where we have not one, but two guests and I will let you know who those guests are in a moment. But first, I’ve got to say hi to Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: Hello everybody.

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Jacob Stoops: And everything. Make sure we don’t skip Jeff.

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Jacob Stoops: And then guests. Number one is going to be Miss Jamie Alberico. Jamie, how’s it going

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Jamie Alberico: I’m so sad to be that guy. First thing in the podcast, it’s out there we go.

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How are

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Jacob Stoops: You. I am

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Jacob Stoops: I gave you the Midwest pronunciation with the Bad accent. So I am

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Jamie Alberico: Okay.

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Oh,

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Jamie Alberico: It means else King

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Jacob Stoops: What, no.

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No.

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Jamie Alberico: Alberico means elf King, Jamie means usurper.

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Well,

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Jacob Stoops: Well, I would say, I was gonna say Game of Thrones. Because of you, soccer, but elf is more Lord of the Rings, so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Or D, amp D do it on

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Jacob Stoops: there or there you go that’s that’s probably a better a better reference, but I actually don’t play d&d so the other person speaking, surprise surprise is Miss Ashley Berman Hale. Hi. How’s it going, Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: Good. I couldn’t keep

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Ashley Berman Hale: My mouth shut, until you

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Jacob Stoops: Enjoy your now.

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Jacob Stoops: Did I pronounce your name right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: No.

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Yes, la

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Thank you very much.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s nothing like face palming the the intros and messing up somebody’s name immediately. So

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Jacob Stoops: Can wish I was the

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Jacob Stoops: Was the first time I’ve done that. But it’s but it’s not you think I’d learned

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Jacob Stoops: Cool. So thank you everybody for being here. I know in Jamie’s case she’s kind of out on the West Coast. So it’s a very early morning so

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Jacob Stoops: Extra Special that she has decided to join us. I did want to make a few remarks and tell a quick story before we kind of dive in.

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Jacob Stoops: The one, one thing is I wanted to pay a bit of tribute my wife’s Grandpa. We just came from his funeral. This weekend and today actually would be his 100th birthday.

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Jacob Stoops: So he decided to to not wait we had planned a surprise birthday party for him on this this past Saturday, and we were, we had had hired a an old

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Jacob Stoops: Style crooner we had had because he’s a Italian we had had a nice Catholic

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Jacob Stoops: BLEEP something sent from the actual Pope in Rome, we had had the governor of Kentucky, the President of the Cincinnati Reds all kinds of people.

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Jacob Stoops: provided some really special things for him to honor his 100th birthday.

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Jacob Stoops: Unfortunately, about three weeks ago he passed away and he pulled one over on us. So instead of going to a surprise 100th birthday party. We went to his funeral this weekend.

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Jacob Stoops: But today, would have been his actual 100th birthday. So what I can only hope is that he, his wife preceded him by about five years is that she called him up to spend his hundredth birthday with her. So Hank Picciano if you can somehow, hear me, we love you and we miss you already

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Jacob Stoops: So now, now that I’m

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Jacob Stoops: A little sad. Sorry, I’m trying goes, it’s still a little Ross of trying to do. I’m trying to hold it back here, but

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Jacob Stoops: Wanted to tell the story of how we were able to book both Jamie and Ashley at the same time and

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Jacob Stoops: I hope that it didn’t come across super creepy. But basically, when we were thinking about Season two. And we were trying to figure out, okay,

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Jacob Stoops: Here’s everybody that we’ve already talked to, and here are the people and it’s a large group of people. You guys are extra, extra special. Obviously, but it’s a large group of people, because there are just so many fantastic SEOs in the in the space and honestly

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Jacob Stoops: We’re going to try to interview every single one of them, because there are so many, but it could take years.

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Jacob Stoops: Which is a good thing. Since we have a podcast but basically we when we had thought about who we want on Ashley and Jamie were kind of close to the top of the list.

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Jacob Stoops: And so we had started, we had started reaching out to people and especially in cases where you don’t directly know each other’s but you are kind of tangentially connected

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Jacob Stoops: As we were in a, in a few cases, you just kind of go through the the different channels. The, the email.

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Jacob Stoops: We use you use whatever’s available to us. So Jeff was connected to Ashley through a text Slack channel. I was connected to to Jamie through Twitter.

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Jacob Stoops: And then we had found somehow emails. I think we pulled them from Jamie, I think I called your email from your website.

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Jacob Stoops: I think it’s not not a robot, which I want to ask about that. And then I somehow we found Ashley’s here. I don’t know. But anyway, so we’re reaching out and we’re in the process. And it’s occurring on the same day and

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Jacob Stoops: We came to found out to find out that not only were we both reaching out to you guys. At the same time, you are literally sitting in the same room while we’re trying to schedule this so

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Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that especially because you didn’t know us directly. It was like these creepy guys trying to schedule us for a pot.

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Jacob Stoops: Yes.

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Jamie Alberico: Actually these guys want to schedule a murder. What are you doing,

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Right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Numbers.

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Jacob Stoops: Vary

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Jacob Stoops: But you guys

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Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: Ashley had just ordered some some birthday brunch for me. And we were at my kitchen table and drain eggs Benedict and something to listen to a local bit around here. And yeah, we both got the same message like hey, she just got an invitation for pitch to

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Jamie Alberico: The oh

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Jeff Louella: Yes, funny.

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Jacob Stoops: Well luckily it all. It all worked out. You guys are a good sports and we appreciate you all coming on. So,

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Jacob Stoops: As as everybody who listens to this podcast knows the hallmark is origin stories backgrounds and what it’s like to be to be an SEO and since we have two

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Jacob Stoops: Guests on this podcast, we’re going to be doing two interviews and depending on timing will probably skip, skip the news. Maybe we’ll

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Jacob Stoops: We were going to maybe talk about tech SEO boost, but I think we can skip that for now. But we’re going to be doing to background story interviews and then later on a deep dive into just general technical SEO. So who wants to go first. Who would like to step up to the plate.

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Now that

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Jamie Alberico: Oh you have see

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Jacob Stoops: All right, Jamie. Since it’s six in the morning or seven in the morning there and you’re

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Jacob Stoops: Fresh on game.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah, I was bitten by a radioactive search engine.

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Jamie Alberico: My Uncle Ben and now I’m here.

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Now you’re here.

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Jacob Stoops: Miss Peter Parker Pedro Parker. Oh.

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Ashley Berman Hale: What was I here, for I got frustrated with other jobs and I like to tinker. All right. Um, I mean we can tell the long story if you want actual details. Is that what this podcast is about

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Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly. I was gonna say well podcast is over a

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Jamie Alberico: Couple of little one liners are like

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Jamie Alberico: cash the check.

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Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I think that was Jamie’s really good job of loving it back to me because

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Ashley Berman Hale: There for me to call not it. So I will get started.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I have a degree in art history which is fantastically useless in the traditional sense.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I love it. Critical thinking is something that is a little bit tough to teach. If you don’t have it. So thank you, college for giving me that

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Ashley Berman Hale: And the first non waitress job I took or non dish dish washing and a bar or non making coffee was a sit down job at a small startup.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Where I had to answer, answer emails for people who are too busy to answer their own emails and pretend to do that. So that was how I got started made friends with the CFO did some audience because I’m picky as hell.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And knew that there was money missing saved him a bunch of money. They got bought out by Overstock and so we got tossed in I got brought down to the exact office there to help out and had someone say, here’s a giant fucking spreadsheet. This is pay per click. Can you figure it out.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And that was tough. And I said, I don’t like this. And I like cool. How about XML sitemap, have you heard of those

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Ashley Berman Hale: So the way that I got started as just trying to figure out how to do that for a big site with lots of inventory. I went and asked questions in a forum, I believe so strongly and

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Ashley Berman Hale: Sharing public information and helping each other. So while I was asking and waiting for an answer. I decided to answer some other questions and got stuck here.

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Ashley Berman Hale: God there’s ultimate nerd forum environments for me to learn in and for me to be moderately accepted by and then I kind of hopped around a bit and found myself very comfortably nestled in the technical SEO spot for a software company.

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Who

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Ashley Berman Hale: High five.

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Ashley Berman Hale: High five. That’s, I mean, I’m still a really good. Well, no, I’m not. I’m still a really good dishwasher and a moderately okay waitress. So I’ve got backup plans.

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Jamie Alberico: How many friends today. Gary Owens now.

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Like seven

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Ashley Berman Hale: My, my arms.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Around children. So, you know,

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Jamie Alberico: fallback plan is ready.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. During the dark during the.com bust. I went to bartending school because I figured the internet was going to go away. And I was like, you know, one thing people like to do when times are bad is drink so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I believe it. My family owned a bar and like the Dyess state in the tree. So my family were bar owners in Utah, and actually under brewery in Montana and they always did. Okay. Because whenever there is, you know, a lot of money or religious oppression beer helps. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: And actually makes really good homemade Kula and it’s almost Christmas Ashley.

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Jamie Alberico: I know well

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Ashley Berman Hale: I will bring you a batch. I’m making a local New York match. But then I’ll be back to Colorado. Nice.

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Jeff Louella: Guy have three gallons of lemon cello going on back here for

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Ashley Berman Hale: Them. He’s not lying it people

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Ashley Berman Hale: Dang. All right, jack you got plans later I’m gonna hang out with you.

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Jeff Louella: All right, let’s do it. I got tons of stuff here.

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Jeff Louella: The whole wall whiskies over here to

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Jamie Alberico: Why are we not doing this from just garage.

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Jeff Louella: Come on.

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Ashley Berman Hale: All right, Jamie I deferred you long enough. Now you have to tell

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Jamie Alberico: Magical story. I did the coffee kicking. I was supposed to be a player, right, which is a weird thing to say. And I guess I can certainly do that.

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Jamie Alberico: But that’s where my degree is in my passion was like, I’m gonna write plays and comic books, and then the recession in 2008 head and call times were longer than normal. And I’m trying to contact my student loan folk and find some way to pay them and he

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Jamie Alberico: You know, I was waiting tables at a sushi bar and

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Jamie Alberico: Wasn’t really glamorous bit and got into basically any job that would get me away from cutting my fingers and carrying

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Jamie Alberico: His family without being pushy, the end of the day.

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Jamie Alberico: It’s a really where my stories prematurely.

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Jamie Alberico: Like I did other things at some point somewhere.

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Jamie Alberico: I was a blogger Outreach Manager. That was my first gig, which is pre Penguin on if you are trying to connect to me on LinkedIn. Right now, I would offer the pro tip of remove

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Jamie Alberico: link building from your title before you send that letter.

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Jamie Alberico: Susan, thank you. I’m sure you’re a lovely human I’ve just been hurt before by choosing to copy pasta.

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Jamie Alberico: To the job and house for e commerce company. We like to me doesn’t products and I look back and go, Oh, it’s so cute little that

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Jamie Alberico: actually ended up working for Ashley. So here’s where I story interconnected. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: I interviewed a local agency and then local Jeannine the first interview, do you think is great. Like, we’re gonna put you on a video interview with our had tech SEO. We were like team Tomahawk

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, that’s

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Ashley Berman Hale: Bad racial appropriation.

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Jamie Alberico: Sorry, I’m stating historical facts.

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Jamie Alberico: admitting to whitewash history right now.

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Jamie Alberico: And we’ve learned better and we’re doing better.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just have a lot of apologies in life.

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Jamie Alberico: Hashtag relatable well interview with Ashley, I’m there was this this magical creature who knew all this world of technical SEO is just like a PG podcast. What kind of language. Can I bring to the table right now and reenact

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Jacob Stoops: Wherever you’re comfortable with.

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Jacob Stoops: George

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Jeff Louella: You’re

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Jamie Alberico: In trouble if I tell if I

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Jamie Alberico: Tell the internet that it was love at first Cocker so I’m interviewing with Ashley and we’re talking

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Jamie Alberico: I don’t remember what the deal was I think about previous job and what it was like waiting tables and somehow the story of an individual thing rather cantankerous king came up and actually

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Jamie Alberico: Miss, miss a big like always being a cock sucker. When you’re that guy.

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Jamie Alberico: On a moment we bonded and the person that hired me immediately most tech out to john Schilling, at that time, because they took us. He goes, where

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Jamie Alberico: And the bathroom children have both Marketing SEO traditional style and dev didn’t really have a new should have our own just yet.

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Jamie Alberico: I picked them several months they, you know, kick it back to me and be like, Yeah, I want you to join the team and that time I like waiting for Android little cards like, Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to interview I really want to work with Ashley.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I will do anything once somebody flatters me and we have great chemistry. So it was, it was awesome, because it was really important to me to always do some peer collaboration with technical SEO, in particular, just like you do peer reviews. When you’re coding

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Ashley Berman Hale: And it’s really important to me to reach back and bring more women, along with me so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I wasn’t far ahead and I’m certainly am a decent click behind Jamie now because she’s, she’s had a really fast trajectory. But the fact that I can bring more women on to a technical team was really fucking awesome.

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Jamie Alberico: It was 100 recent article women on that game. Yeah, yeah. There were two of us.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Math.

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Jeff Louella: Jackie.

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You. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: It’s awesome. So

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Jacob Stoops: So I think the first thing I would ask is what is it about technical SEO that excites both of you will like why because there’s there’s all kinds of different types of SEO like

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Jacob Stoops: Depending on like different bat. It’s like you almost get to pick and choose what kind of SEO you like to do, and I feel like

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Jacob Stoops: You kind of have to be able to dabble in a little bit of everything. But I feel like over the course of time people develop their specialty based on you know what they what they enjoy most. So what is it about technical SEO specifically that you guys enjoy

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Ashley Berman Hale: I like thinking about the evolution of it. I always think of the adage that, you know, back in the day, everyone was their town doctor and you’re going to college. This was also your dentist.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Let that sink in for a second and then, you know, we started getting better and getting specialist. So I think we’re in a really cool time of SEO where there are these deep specialists.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I got into technical SEO because I was just so curious. Like, that seems so smart and clever and an interesting

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Ashley Berman Hale: That I wanted to learn it and I wanted to learn from smart people. Also, I am just a shitty marketer, like the anti marketer. I can’t write

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Ashley Berman Hale: Like if someone asked me write a blog, I would rather quit my job I’ve come close before a video the nine. The people who hired us who were very gentle and patient, they definitely gave up after making me white write one blog, and I, I just, I can’t promote and so for me.

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Jamie Alberico: For like 4000 words, it’s still one of the best resources on

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Jamie Alberico: Security at that time.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, well, I

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Jamie Alberico: Wrote Gordon Duff and beautiful.

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Jamie Alberico: White Paper, essentially. So let me give you credit

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Yeah.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, not liking it. It’s really hard, whereas the technical stuff. I am a voice and a snoop. And that’s why I like the Internet.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I snoop on people in my free time and I snoop on your site during work time and that’s why I love it. I like to go find problems and tinker and figure out what somebody busted and how we can make it better.

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About you, James.

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Jamie Alberico: Oh, I fell in love with technical SEO I missed it. I was hired for cascade and as a marketing SEO went to work on the blog and all that, but in my domain was, you know, monitoring our

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Jamie Alberico: keywords and we were, I think, the second or third largest e commerce site for restaurant equipment on suddenly all of my rankings just

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Jamie Alberico: fell out they’ll drop the bomb dropped them and maybe we can figure out what’s going on. And that led down and it’s really good 11 day binge.

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Jamie Alberico: Like some people go to Vegas when they go on a binge. I went like an 11 day binge of like trying to figure out what happened to this website. And at the end of it. It was a home of homebrew CMS, the result we had to break the site. Fine.

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Jamie Alberico: And kind of start from scratch. I had to go here and learn about how to map all of the specific content together, how to figure out when things were no longer useful. That’s my son yelling at us right now, by the way. Hi tank boy. Say hello to the internet.

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Jacob Stoops: By the way, I super impressed that you managed to keep talking without breaking stride as you let your cat in and open your curtains. That was pretty. That was pretty awesome.

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Jamie Alberico: Sorry internet tank takes precedence on all matters. Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: That’s, yeah. I fell in love with mechanical co authoring getting that chance to

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Jamie Alberico: Say what we say a dying site. We have to go through to make a series of very dramatic changes and that rebuilding at home growing CML and increasingly great band of it.

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Jeff Louella: I think it comes down to a lot of

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Jeff Louella: A lot of people get here, and that’s one reason I love like the origin story he’s because we all get here in different ways and whether you’re coming from a technical background or not it. We all one thing we have in common is that curiosity to dive deep

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Jeff Louella: And 11 days to their I spent. It’s funny, I used to do web development and

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Jeff Louella: Most of my friends were on AT LIKE AFTER MIDNIGHT AND ONCE A while I’m not on online as much that late night. But when I am. It’s still the same people, same developer guys like cuz it’s like some reason my brain starts tweaking and start doing well at like 11 o’clock. Yeah, so

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Jamie Alberico: That weird golden hour of Cannibal logical brain that

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, we do later in the evening.

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Jeff Louella: So it’s fun. And I’ve spent many, many, many hours just like going down a rabbit hole and no one ever know like at the end of the day, my wife will be like, what are we doing go four in the morning, not just like

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Jeff Louella: I don’t know. I was trying to get some code work and sometimes it’s just you missed a period somewhere and now it’s two in the morning and

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Like

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Jamie Alberico: fancy clothes.

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Jeff Louella: So, and then having that like coming into the SEO side of things, really, kind of, it’s interesting. It’s one thing I have trouble with with new guys coming into SEO. It’s like

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Jeff Louella: I want to learn technical SEO and I’m like, are you willing to stay up for 10 days and try

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Jeff Louella: Out some piece of something that just drives you crazy. You can’t go to sleep until you figure it out and and you can’t teach that, of course, and it’s one of those where we trying to figure out what like how do I get that into a lot of my team. How do I get into them and

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Jamie Alberico: Either. How do I do that.

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Jamie Alberico: Cheryl ambition interview process. You just give them two pieces of drinking a paperclip go kidnap and see

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Jamie Alberico: If they can do is that you’re new to this.

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Jeff Louella: Never thought about that one.

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Jacob Stoops: MacGyver style.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, I mean I was figuring out how to make an unusual shape spec for they had the actual app items when

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Jamie Alberico: I was a game changer for me a call. I can go ahead and make all these API calls. And I can begin to reuse this work and, you know, each time I do I swap out, pick up, pick and choose configuration and

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Jamie Alberico: Let me scale up so they get good pieces learning to be a Technic technical SEO is after you’ve gone through and burn yourself out on an insane rabbit hole that you know showed you some great things as to how do I read that information.

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Ashley Berman Hale: You’re failing nine and 10 times tinkering around then SEO technical SEO for you.

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Jamie Alberico: So you want to fail, like a flying SPACE MONKEY and plume of fireworks and we have a career for you.

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Jacob Stoops: One thing I am finding interesting is I think three out of four of us have a background in the in the arts. So I come from a graphic design background. We’ve got an art history background.

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Jacob Stoops: And then kind of a playwriting background. And it’s like, That’s not very technical stuff I’m I mean I’m sure there is some technicality to it, but it’s not like code in as my in laws say Jake works on computers and really don’t, um,

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Jamie Alberico: I mean, check out gun applies the code and the playwriting

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Jacob Stoops: Right and

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Jamie Alberico: They got enough one a bit of fire and three

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Jacob Stoops: I just wonder where the not even necessarily the the technical SEO. The, the SEO part of it. But with that kind of a background amongst all of us, where do we feel like

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Jacob Stoops: The, the need and the passion because I’m very passionate about.

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Jacob Stoops: Technical SEO as well, although I don’t like to be bucket it as a technical SEO. I like to be bucket it as just more of a general like jack of all trades, but

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Jacob Stoops: There is a certain passion for getting in and getting my hands dirty and, you know, with a website and coming from a graphic design background. I just wonder like sometimes. Where did that come from.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just

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Jacob Stoops: I can’t even put my put my finger on it because graphic design is more art, whereas I feel like technical and coding and building websites is a little bit more science. So I don’t know, maybe I feel like. And I guess I needed some balance in in the second half of my life.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I have I have pretty strong feelings about that after being chastised for mocking my degree.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Listen, my dad looked at me and rolled his eyes and he said, good luck paying for college on your own.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But art history is one of those degrees, where people are like, what the hell are you going to do with that so

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Ashley Berman Hale: I will tell you that the greatest thing I learned from my degrees to spend time looking

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Ashley Berman Hale: And critical thinking. Because what you can do is you can uncover individual parts of a painting or learn about someone’s life or what was going on in the culture was going on in the economy.

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Ashley Berman Hale: With diseases were being spread based on the iconography.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And when you look at someone site, you’re essentially stripping back layers of. Where are they getting their imagery. What’s the content. What’s the history of the site and how many hands gone through

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Ashley Berman Hale: And then you pull back further to see what the bones are and where the skeletons are hidden the bad ones, the broken bones. I don’t know where I’m going with this. Yeah, but

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Jamie Alberico: Someone redesigned it and it was like that fresco about the will and his woman repainted.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, the none.

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Ashley Berman Hale: None that repainting yes we have done many

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Sites in our life.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it does feel like there’s a really good intersection of I think Fine Arts and Humanities help teach people to be open about humans and to look critically

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Ashley Berman Hale: At what they create. And so while I have a laughable degree to some people, and I’ll be the first to make a joke. I really don’t think I could do what I do today without having spent the time and learning how to unravel the story from that degree.

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Jacob Stoops: I think that’s a great point night I honestly I never thought about it that way. And I remember being in college and thinking a little bit. The

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Jacob Stoops: The same thing as I was kind of getting getting deeper. Maybe that’s why it never actually worked worked out for me.

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Jacob Stoops: In terms of the graphic design in college and kind of taking that into A into a career because I was worried about money and how I was going to pay for things and so on and so forth. And it’s not necessarily unless you’re really, really, really good or really rare.

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Jacob Stoops: Talent not saying SEOs aren’t talented, but I think

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Jamie Alberico: At that again from the machine.

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Jamie Alberico: Right, while you’re in a job.

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Jacob Stoops: Great. You don’t even know. Exactly. Exactly. And I think like the timing for me was just right because this is like mid 2000s. And as I was flaming out of college SEO was

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Jacob Stoops: A great opportunity that not a lot of people could could do at that point in time. And I was like, well, well, there’s my differentiator. There’s what, there’s. What can make me unique and I feel like a lot of people

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Jacob Stoops: Ended up like that, in terms of looking looking for something else and not necessarily knowing what it was and not being able to put your finger on it. But before you know it, you’ve got a job in SEO at that time. Not a lot of people knew how to do which made it incredibly valuable.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah. Was it was pretty that’s kind of

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Jamie Alberico: My philosophy.

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Jamie Alberico: And I find that my analytics philosophy is if if L statements for trying to muscle. So I absolutely deplorable and how good your do my mid term on the meaning of the word completely terrible back knowledge now deeply, deeply value that code is just living, we’re looking at it. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: So one thing I detected and Ashley, I’m calling you to the carpet again. And the reason I’m calling you to the carpet, not necessarily calling you to the carpet in a negative way we do talk a lot about self doubt and imposter syndrome and how

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Jacob Stoops: Powerful that can be and based on kind of what you had said about the writing and not necessarily feeling like you’re a good writer. And I’ve actually i feel like i’ve read your, your stuff for quite a while so like I think you’re doing something right.

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Jacob Stoops: Like, do you ever feel a sense of imposter syndrome and like self doubt. And I don’t know, I just, I always like to dive into that ask

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Jamie Alberico: You actually

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Ashley Berman Hale: Do I every single waking minutes, um,

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Ashley Berman Hale: No, I think that

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Ashley Berman Hale: You know, it’s a pendulum. I think that, in general, I feel like I am utter bullshit at most things

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Ashley Berman Hale: But the one thing that makes me feel good about myself and about the work that I’m doing is when I can help somebody else, whether it’s to solve a problem or

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Ashley Berman Hale: To get a better job I end up being this random career counselor and helping people get good jobs which I actually like I love doing.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really struggle with my knowledge and I had to come to terms with. I’m never going to be the

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Ashley Berman Hale: smartest person in the room. But if you’re the kind of person that surround yourself with smarter people like you’re in pretty you’re in a pretty good spot.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I may not be the most clever, but I do like to learn and I have an appetite to learn and to try to understand so

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Ashley Berman Hale: imposter syndrome is really, really, really, really real. And I suffered in other areas of my life, including being a parent and playing a sport, but

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Ashley Berman Hale: If you can find one thing about yourself that you can put work toward that you can feel good about I’ve found that it allows me to sort of keep going.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And when I can’t. I call Jamie and she usually tells me to buck up that I am an important person with, you know, capital T thoughts and I deserve to be here and I can help people so

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it is something I struggle with. And it’s not even this passive struggling, it’s, I mean, I can’t even tell you I have

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I have OCD, but like obsessive thought patterns and one that’s been in my head for about 17 years is waking up and just wanting to scream into the void Mia, what the fuck am I even doing

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Ashley Berman Hale: What is this like and you could probably go back through my Twitter and see like how many times I’ve actually tweeted tweeted that out is like what am I even doing to help. Um so yeah I don’t recommend it but if anyone wants to talk about the old capitalized syndrome from here.

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Jacob Stoops: Understand in the reason I asked was, and I hope it didn’t come across as rude. Um, I saw I suffer from it as well. It’s like it’s, it can be crushing sometimes and for me.

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Jacob Stoops: Part of digging myself out of it was that this podcast going and feeling like, hey, I am good enough to go and talk to all of these really smart people, and I do know enough to be able to hold my ground.

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Jacob Stoops: With some of the best best folks in the in the industry and there’s just, it’s not just here, it permeates a lot of different parts of my life, and it is it is a daily

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Jacob Stoops: A daily struggle, and I know like it has been other than SEO. In general, probably the most frequently reoccurring subject across every episode of the podcast. So in the industry for whatever

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Jacob Stoops: Reason, you’ve got a bunch of people suffering from imposter syndrome. And it’s, I just, I find it quite amazing because of how many smart people there are, that people

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Jacob Stoops: That are that are that are incredibly, incredibly talented don’t seem to believe in their self and I just keep asking why, why is that, and

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Jacob Stoops: I think one of the best things that can come out of this podcast is to let people know. Like, you’re not alone. Some of the best people in the industry have self doubt literally all the time.

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Ashley Berman Hale: All the time. All the time and

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Jamie Alberico: I think our industry is made for it, though.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, it really is.

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Jamie Alberico: Our end everything we do.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: I’m there is very much the chance. You’ve been down this rabbit hole for so long. You come back up. You like Melbourne coast.

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Jamie Alberico: You’re no longer sure if you’ve gone full broken Roomba or have you figured out something incredibly valuable. Yeah, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: And I feel like there are times, especially if you work on the agency side. I haven’t necessarily experienced this quite as much in house but like

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Jacob Stoops: There’s a lot of pressure and you can be the the best SEO, but if you’re putting a situation where there’s just no opportunity to succeed, doesn’t really matter how good of an SEO, you are. For example, if a client doesn’t implement your recommendations and then nothing

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Ashley Berman Hale: Happens right so

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Jacob Stoops: I think even the best SEOs go through a lot of failure and hopefully a lot of success as well, right, or we wouldn’t have jobs, but I think there’s a fear of

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Jacob Stoops: Failure with our clients as well as success and sometimes it’s in our hands and a lot of times it’s not

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Jacob Stoops: And I think for me, like there are times when that part of its crushing like okay, what can I say to make them think differently or to make them realize that hey, this is actually

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Jacob Stoops: We’re doing. We’re doing well, even if the results don’t fight look like it yet, stuff like that. So there’s a lot of pressure.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Well, sorry. Is it okay if I hop back in here cuz yeah

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Ashley Berman Hale: Well, and you’re dealing with such smart people. Right. I might think I’m clever and then I take two days off to roller skate and drink myself into oblivion, and come back and the entire industry has changed. So it’s very easy to feel like you’re slipping.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I, I really, really love this new trend that our industry has of kind of coming together to support each other because I have a pretty big gap.

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Ashley Berman Hale: In my SEO career as far as paid jobs and it was because of the toxic environment and the culture that we were in it just didn’t feel good it felt kind of gross like there was some shitty things happening.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But now I i love that people are talking more to each other. If you don’t know Mary Davies and the industry. She has created groups that help people and give them a safe place to talk about

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Ashley Berman Hale: Their personal struggles that I find really incredible. And for me, personally, I’ve I’m trying to be very brave capital, be brave, about talking about my mental illness and my doubts and the bad days that I have

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Ashley Berman Hale: And I have felt not only accepted but embraced and holy shit, I still have a job like some of the stuff I say in public. I can’t believe but

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Ashley Berman Hale: Being able to be out there and be vulnerable hasn’t hurt my career as far as I know.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But I would just encourage anyone if you’re in that place and you feel any sort of really from talking about it. You’re in good company and not in good company. As in, like, hell yeah let’s have a depression party.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Because I have thrown other parties that are better, but you’re in good company in that there’s generally some really compassionate people here that can empathize and can stand by you.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And sometimes that’s all you mean like sometimes I get a lot just from going to Jamie’s house or meeting somewhere and working side by side without even talking

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve worked remotely for 10 years. So that’s very important.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, come on, really.

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Ashley Berman Hale: You’re three

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Jeff Louella: Now you’re if three of being removed, I guess, somewhere around there and I do

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Jeff Louella: sometimes miss having that camaraderie in the office where you you can’t talk about some of the stuff that’s on your, you know, things that are on your team. I mean, I really feel after watching a lot of the tech SEO boost stuff.

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Jeff Louella: I’m like, wow, I think, I think I need to really step up my game because 80% of that was about Python and machine learning, which

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Jeff Louella: I do think has you know a place. It just seemed like a whole conference based on it kind of made me like think overnight. I’m all of a sudden going like, I’m so far behind. I think it’s just why

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Jeff Louella: I always felt like I was pretty

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Jeff Louella: Much always a little bit of a step ahead. But I think one. Now we have with there is such a great tech community.

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Jeff Louella: That it’s like, oh, I think the tech guys aren’t the ones that are out there like pounding your chest, saying, look at me, and think now we have

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Jeff Louella: More of that community. And you know what the tech SEO slack group that were in there and I’m just like, wow, there’s like a million tech SEOs i thought i was like a one of a kind.

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Jeff Louella: And now there’s just yeah like that whole conference. I was watching going okay

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Jamie Alberico: I mean jr was like, and I made my own internet

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Jeff Louella: Yeah.

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Jamie Alberico: The bar was raised.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, the best like I swear to God, if I wasn’t married. He’s in trouble because those brains.

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Jacob Stoops: Looking I’m smart and like, I’m like, people like Jr. I’m like damn it I blame you. It’s your fault for being so smart, and I’m so

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Jacob Stoops: And

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Jeff Louella: So,

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Jeff Louella: He’s got that Southern charm.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Tuesday. Oh yeah, well,

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Jamie Alberico: Cupid, though, and I think we need to I

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Jacob Stoops: Know, I know.

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Jacob Stoops: Matt.

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Jacob Stoops: Was being facetious. This

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Jamie Alberico: But

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Jamie Alberico: Something that I’ll share my story here about feeling stupid and Ashley really being there for me because it’s like

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Jamie Alberico: So we went to tech. Are you into Google IO together. My first I, oh, I think it was 2016 HF, we went to. And if you’ve ever been to IO, you can go to

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Jamie Alberico: This panel to panel to panel with the most amazing experts in their field who knows so much on are bringing so much to move the community forward on to celebrate. I spent the day

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Jamie Alberico: Together concert every year and I spent the concert in bathroom so 27 hyperventilating and having an absolute panic attack.

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Jamie Alberico: On why I was there on how I had taken a spot from someone who could event here and using this information actually done something with it.

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Jamie Alberico: It was it was a terrible, terrible sensation. But at the end of it. I learned to offer myself grace and in those moments where I am clearly the dumbest kid in the room.

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Jamie Alberico: And that’s okay because I’m still in the room, and I’m willing to ask those questions that seem so one on one. And I feel like I’m willing to

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Jamie Alberico: Learn from people who are a lot smarter than me so Ashley prides herself on and curating up selection of really, really beautiful and brilliant people

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Jamie Alberico: Being around her and I learned to get there myself learn that it’s okay to feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Like that’s officially now my happy place is an absence of gravity just picking a point in my horizons. Right.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I, I considered a special talent to be surrounded by people that are smarter than you and then instead of feeling self conscious. If you can find comfort there and excitement there, then you’re you are good. I’m going to do.

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Jamie Alberico: Like roller derby for the ego.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, yeah. I’m also the worst roller derby player, but if you can find comfort in getting your actual ass kicked. Then it’s for you.

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Jamie Alberico: Humble here again because you just

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Jamie Alberico: Want on fallible brawl.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Oh yeah, I wonder, be prom queen, you guys.

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Jeff Louella: I’m so nice.

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Jacob Stoops: How long have you been doing roller derby.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Um, two and a half years, something like that. Not very long. It’s the first sport. I’ve ever played and I am an overweight, you know, working person who sits down for the last 36 years of my 36 year life. So it was a trip and a challenge. But heck

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Jacob Stoops: What, like what puts you because roller derby is not something like people do very often. So like you’re sitting around two or three years ago, like

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Jacob Stoops: Maybe I think I’ll go do roller derby like how did that come about.

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Ashley Berman Hale: So, um, I have two very fabulous daughters and the oldest one was into real interview she had read a graphic novel called roller girl, which is a fantastic graphic novel.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And she was interested in doing it, but I didn’t know anything about it. And we found out that there was a local team for adults and juniors

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Ashley Berman Hale: And she wasn’t quite old enough, and so I told her that I would give it a shot and see how this whole roller derby thing worked and

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Ashley Berman Hale: I gave it a shot and definitely threw up like my first night there, but was like dude, this this gear is expensive. I have to do this three months. Otherwise, like

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’ve made a financial mistake which makes me nervous. So I stuck on for three months and just kept going.

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Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a, it’s a funny environment. I know it seems you know a bit abrasive. But I will tell you that I have found

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Ashley Berman Hale: More community with other women there than I have any other place in my life more acceptance more diverse women, they will absolutely murder you on the track, but they’re the first ones to pick you up off the floor.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Constant compliments and encouragement, so maybe I’m there for the ego. I’m not the best roller skater. But it just feels really good to be around genuine people that want to see you succeed, but also are not going to go easy on you.

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Jacob Stoops: And that are going to elbow you in the face.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Sometimes I mean that’s not fully legal, but hey, but you know they’re the first person is to drive you to the ER and bring you a muffin while you’re waiting for the x ray so

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Ashley Berman Hale: So it’s a really solid community. I would say that, you know, when we work on computers so much. I would encourage you to get a hobby that involves your hands or physically wearing yourself out that’s been really important for the balance of my mental health to

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Ashley Berman Hale: Anyway, joined realtor becomes skate with me to cover letter b.com alright, just kidding.

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Jacob Stoops: Farther

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Jacob Stoops: Now, forgive me for my roller derby knowledge are there men’s roller derby circuits.

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Ashley Berman Hale: There are

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Jacob Stoops: Indeed, wow.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, there are Myrna which is my favorite acronym is the one and it’s the men’s roller derby Association. There’s a great team in Denver, where Jamie is there, same all over the country.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Still pretty female dominated. It’s a for women by women volunteer run sport all nonprofits. So we have a pretty strongly, but in the men’s roller derby women are also welcome to join. So usually when I meant to be one or two women.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But yeah, get out there strap on your skates.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I had no one to help you come up with a penny Derby name.

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Ashley Berman Hale: I got you. Oh.

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Jeff Louella: No, I’m gonna be taking my daughter to we were she’s found a new love for roller skating.

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Jeff Louella: And I mean, she’s only nine now but she’s I told her I was gonna take it a roller derby and she’s super excited but then the the league that’s around here went on break. But it could THEY COME BACK THE END OF JANUARY so

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Ashley Berman Hale: We’re on break too but Jeff, you said ping me offline because my nine year old was the one who got me into it.

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Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. Well, hopefully it doesn’t get me into it into it but

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Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s hard to roller skate and not smile so straps escapes on

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Jeff Louella: Agreed. Now, they were fun. We go out there. We every kid in my house has a sport and my one daughter. We finally found. She’s an artist. She’s the artist of the family, but we found her sport, which is roller skating so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Isn’t that crazy how it works. Um, so, Jacob and Jeff, if you’re okay with this. Since we talked earlier a little bit of imposter syndrome. I’m going to

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Ashley Berman Hale: I’m going to say off topic. Real quick, and want to put them on a last thought out there on that item is just that we’ve had a lot of suicides in our industry, the past few years, there’s been I think I know this. There’s been too many one is too many. But there’s been too many

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I just open invitation. If anyone out there is Phil and rough and wants to chat. I am wicked good at bad memes mom jokes inappropriate comments and drunk texting, so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Just reach out and talk to someone. Yeah, I would.

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Jacob Stoops: I would say the same. I would offer the same invitation. I’ve

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Jacob Stoops: I mean, not everybody has been able to have experience with people going through that I do have

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Jacob Stoops: Experienced not necessarily myself but somebody very close to me has been battling with that and having those types of thoughts. So I’m maybe a little more well suited than than, than the next person. So I would also offer

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Jacob Stoops: Community to anyone that needs to talk and

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Jacob Stoops: Please reach out reach out you’ve got you’ve got friends, you’ve got family. Don’t let it go too far.

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Jacob Stoops: Don’t let it go too far.

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Jacob Stoops: Okay, we just got

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Ashley Berman Hale: Really really taken like I am so sorry I’ve cried twice so

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Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be done.

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Jacob Stoops: Once I’ve almost tear it up. So, man.

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God, I’m gonna

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Jacob Stoops: Get me here. Um,

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Jamie Alberico: Well, I think it was monotone robot and I’ve been a beautiful because we are fallible soft, squishy people

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Jamie Alberico: And being real humans is what keeps us together in a world that’s based on ideas and one TV respond partners and

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Jacob Stoops: Those that were not a robot came from.

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Jamie Alberico: Not a Robot coming from Ashley Berman Hale. Yeah, her bio section of the website says, I’m not a robot and she was sharing this off to me.

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Jamie Alberico: Just fantastic getting tickets and make a new branch all together, have an interest in doing well, can I

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Jamie Alberico: Have to Google domains bought the domain fun drinking game. By the way, just go when you get drugged by random domains.

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Jamie Alberico: Robot may have been purchased in one of those moments, a couple of beers and it’s a it’s very effective way to help people understand, you know, I guess, to where I said, all those captures you fill out. I’m not a robot. But I thought

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Jeff Louella: I recently bought a domain.

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Jeff Louella: Lasers and bacon.

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Jeff Louella: Because I figured. What’s cooler than lasers and bacon.

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Jamie Alberico: That that

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Jacob Stoops: We can do with that site. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: You know that goes right now it’s in the vault of 30 other web domains, I one day, one wants to start so

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Jacob Stoops: Wow, what are, what made you think that and how much you had a drink.

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Jeff Louella: You know, I was looking, I was looking up laser engraving machines. And I was like, you know, it makes lasers cooler bacon.

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Jacob Stoops: Bacon just makes everything cooler, I guess.

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Jamie Alberico: Why are you custom engraving, the bacon.

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Jeff Louella: Know,

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Jamie Alberico: If any wedding thing.

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Jamie Alberico: Could be.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Market market it do it now.

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Ashley Berman Hale: The only thing that

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Jacob Stoops: Does not make cooler what sounds cool is vodka, that that

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I’ve had baked out

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Jacob Stoops: Bad

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Jamie Alberico: flavor to it. That’s not okay.

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Jamie Alberico: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been working a Bloody Mary, but that’s the only time she

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Jamie Alberico: Really apply practical application of that about God.

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Jacob Stoops: I’m

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Jacob Stoops: writing and speaking so

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Jacob Stoops: Jamie nationally. I feel like you guys both do a mix or a fair amount of both writing and public speaking.

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Jacob Stoops: And then I also wanted to ask, Jamie. How did that video which you’ve now become kind of, I guess, the default representative for JavaScript SEO in connection with Google.

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Jacob Stoops: Video with Martin, um, how did that come about and and after that question. I’d love to get into the public speaking side of things, but I wanted to ask

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Ashley Berman Hale: You. I mean, is

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just would do. That is so cool that you are that person. I just know it tickles me. So yeah, thanks for bringing that up because it’s pretty bad.

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It is

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Jamie Alberico: JOHN MAYER I went ahead and made it the other day in JavaScript. The devil on I’m going to be very, very happy.

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Jamie Alberico: That started

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Jamie Alberico: Doing migrations international talk to Brighton SEO. I think that was my second or third talk ever you want to count meetups as well.

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Jamie Alberico: There was another human on my panel who is also discussing JavaScript framework and SEO and me to do a video meet up before the conference to figure out if we were stepping on each other’s toes.

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Jamie Alberico: I’m terrible at time zones absolutely awful at it ended up being like three in the morning seven my leg TARDIS bath road my blue hairs all a frenzy on

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Jamie Alberico: The screen based up and they realized oh my face, my face was like 15 feet wide right now because that’s the Google office.

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Jamie Alberico: And I just happen to be lucky enough to me bar, and as he he had just joined the webmaster team, I believe, Brighton was one of his first talk

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Jamie Alberico: On and just had a really lovely time talking with the team and he will show up too bright in with our blue hair becomes

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Jamie Alberico: a running gag that you’ve got to have blue hair to know JavaScript SEO, he invited me out to and from developers on it when they’re

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Jamie Alberico: Up to do this video me an amazing producer, your brother chance to meet and she’s on

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Jamie Alberico: All those video series. She’s lovely human being. It happened to be the right place, right time I’m betting on the right voice. I bet on JavaScript frameworks are being something that we continue to grow and provide a really effective user experience.

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Jamie Alberico: Getting our redesigned first place in 2014 we launched in 2015

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Jacob Stoops: I would say that was 2014 JavaScript was way ahead of your time. I feel like search engines even still today, although there are so much better than they were.

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Jacob Stoops: Still have a lot of trouble with crawling and I say,

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Jamie Alberico: 2014 when we got the project greenlight it took

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Jacob Stoops: He says to them, getting

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Jacob Stoops: Done SEO and 2014 so

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Jamie Alberico: No, no, we were rebuilding the site at that time and

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Jacob Stoops: Maybe a few weeks.

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Jamie Alberico: After Google announced they were deprecating the Ajax crawler the site went live

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Okay.

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Jamie Alberico: I mean, we definitely did a plane SPACE MONKEY. Like, let’s see what happens. We actually called that project space party.

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Jacob Stoops: Nice. So, so with the with the public speaking, you guys. I feel like both do a fair amount of public speaking and or public moderating. What does that been like

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Ashley Berman Hale: Gary

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I man. I’m a bit of a reluctance speaker, and I’m very not polished, but I really like doing it.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Um, so, hashtag. If you’re, if you don’t have production level value conferences and you want to hang out and talk about cool things I’m game.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Um, but I use it as a way to personally push myself to go deeper into topics as well as just to make friends. So I’ve been working from home for 10 years

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Ashley Berman Hale: So I need to get out of the house, a couple times a year. So

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Jeff Louella: That was

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Ashley Berman Hale: So is pretty important. And then it’s just it’s a bit of a self challenge. So I had, I had a pretty bad speech impediment. As a kid, and took five years of speech therapy so

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Ashley Berman Hale: As a big fuck you to my jeans I decided to do more public speaking as a high school or an adult. So

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Ashley Berman Hale: Part of that is just a little personal renegade but it’s fun. I would love to say that more conferences, though.

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Ashley Berman Hale: Bring more people to present collaboratively like I love presenting with Jamie and with other people that I know.

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Ashley Berman Hale: It helps to get you more bang for your buck again that peer review and peer editing.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And moderating is also fantastic instead of having the same conference organizers. If you’re welcome have other people in the field. There’s just so many cool opportunities there so

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Ashley Berman Hale: Like I said, I’m not a natural speaker, I definitely get nervous. I am known to throw up either before or after or both.

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Can

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Ashley Berman Hale: You just but I still enjoy doing it and really appreciate it opportunities, but it’s it’s wild. It’s weird right i mean i go straight social blackout when I’m up there. Well,

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Jeff Louella: Actually, you also started the rally SEO Meetup group right

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Ashley Berman Hale: Oh, you bring it back, Jeff.

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Jeff Louella: Well, I mean, to go from not being

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Jeff Louella: Liking to speak to starting, you know, the largest Meetup group about SEO. That’s kind of like

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Jeff Louella: I’m jealous that I don’t live in Raleigh, sometimes

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Jeff Louella: I make it up there a couple times, you know, during the conferences and things like that. But at the same time.

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Jeff Louella: The community here, there seems really awesome. And it seems like anyone. It’s like a lot of helping each other grow and and it seems like an awesome community that’s

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Jeff Louella: You know, where we have people like Jr and Patrick and and you know every time I go or see anyone there. I’m like, wow, you all live in Raleigh, like how Raleigh become

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Ashley Berman Hale: Thing. Okay, so I will tell you that is one of my proudest moments. Um, I guess I’m like a little bit of a mama by heart, even though I’m not, I should not be left alone to raise any children but

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Ashley Berman Hale: It was when I was so I had moved to North Carolina after my father and my brother had died and decided on a fresh start moved to a place I never knew and

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Ashley Berman Hale: I just convince my boss to let me use his office space to maybe try to get a few people together off hours to talk about this stuff.

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Ashley Berman Hale: And luckily for me. I was like, do you want to own it. And he said, No, go ahead, which was pretty awesome. But the first local. So here the first rally SEO meetup was definitely in the single digits. And I made homemade pies to try and bribe people to show up, um,

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Ashley Berman Hale: So it started out very, very small. But it was a really, really cool way to develop speaking skills for me.

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Ashley Berman Hale: But also to try to influence the market, a little bit like I told you I took a big long break from SEO because it was a little sticky so back then. I was

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Ashley Berman Hale: On a little bit more of a rampage of kindness. So I made it free and I made sure that they were different types for all levels that they were takeaways and actionable insights and that

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Ashley Berman Hale: All I was trying to do was enable local businesses to either do the work themselves or to know enough to be able to hire without liability.

472
00:54:43.080 –> 00:54:57.690
Ashley Berman Hale: And that sucker grew. I mean we out group at times. I was just begging businesses like hey, if I can get everyone to buy a beer. Can I, you know, hang out in this corner of your bar for an hour tonight and also if no one’s going to buy beer. I’ll just buy them all. It’s fine.

473
00:54:58.860 –> 00:55:07.650
Ashley Berman Hale: But it it grew and grew quickly and I can be a little anti social by nature. And so I had a partner after the first year to come and fill Buckley

474
00:55:08.430 –> 00:55:16.230
Ashley Berman Hale: Who is part of that like Patrick jr group. I think he’s a little header IBM. He’s fantastic but he is a social butterfly so

475
00:55:16.680 –> 00:55:23.670
Ashley Berman Hale: It was another situation where it couldn’t have been the way it did without partnering with somebody. So sharing is caring and what a cool way to start off

476
00:55:24.090 –> 00:55:28.740
Ashley Berman Hale: You know, my professional SEO career and kind of restarted after feeling like the industry was a little sad.

477
00:55:29.340 –> 00:55:39.570
Ashley Berman Hale: But I you know I left it in good hands and they’ve continued to do awesome things and I actually got to go back last year to speak for the 10 year anniversary how how rad, is that it’s like my babies in the double digits.

478
00:55:40.230 –> 00:55:45.270
Jamie Alberico: It’s awesome rampage of kindness is the most on brand thing I’ve ever heard.

479
00:55:46.740 –> 00:55:55.110
Ashley Berman Hale: That, that’s good. That’s all right, I got a t shirt rampage of kindness that goes along with them. The relentlessly casual label, I, I also appreciate

480
00:55:55.410 –> 00:56:07.650
Jacob Stoops: There’s an old at iOS or videos at video game believe called rampage. You should just steal that logo and close rampage of kindness and there you go. You got your own t shirt brand.

481
00:56:07.890 –> 00:56:10.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Cool, Jacob. Now I’m not going to get any work done today. I blame you.

482
00:56:10.950 –> 00:56:14.160
Jamie Alberico: Go discounted work branding and work.

483
00:56:18.900 –> 00:56:25.800
Jacob Stoops: Oh man, I’m so deep crawl, I’d be remiss to not talk about deep crawl. What’s it. What’s it like working the depot.

484
00:56:26.220 –> 00:56:37.950
Ashley Berman Hale: Ship date is the best I’m you know I’m optimistic but not naive. So, but I left a couple jobs, one that was a really toxic environment, one that was

485
00:56:38.550 –> 00:56:45.270
Ashley Berman Hale: Great, but just not the best fit. And I was feeling really low on my capabilities to feel like a productive you know employable human being.

486
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:53.580
Ashley Berman Hale: And deep called crowd grabbed me and I will tell you I have had so much joy working here with the people that I work with the software.

487
00:56:54.330 –> 00:57:00.540
Ashley Berman Hale: And just the flexibility to learn so deep crawls uh you know it’s a software. It’s a crawler enterprise level. So it’s like

488
00:57:01.080 –> 00:57:15.330
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s a lot like Screaming Frog who are amazing people that make a great product, but it’s sort of on steroids, so you’re able to grab historic data crawl in the cloud trend everything. And there’s just a ton of ways to define the data and filter right within the tool.

489
00:57:15.750 –> 00:57:17.400
Jacob Stoops: It also does it on your computer.

490
00:57:18.570 –> 00:57:25.410
Ashley Berman Hale: It doesn’t shut down your computer because it’s like, you know, your fan won’t even get hot. So that’s, you know, big selling point

491
00:57:26.070 –> 00:57:32.250
Ashley Berman Hale: But it’s just a fun tool it’s it’s really interesting. I’ve really enjoyed working here, I would say if anyone hasn’t tried it.

492
00:57:32.700 –> 00:57:39.960
Ashley Berman Hale: Just ping me I would be happy to run across from you and you can poke around obviously not a salesperson because I’m really into giving it away for free but

493
00:57:40.710 –> 00:57:48.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I mean there’s cool data. So if you ever want me to run a sample crawl kick it over. I’m happy to do so you can, yeah, if anyone wants to bug me on Twitter. That’s probably the best place.

494
00:57:49.230 –> 00:57:57.600
Jeff Louella: In the cross seems to have been, you know, I guess the one of the first like SAS platforms to start hiring SEOs, you know, and I see now.

495
00:57:58.050 –> 00:58:01.050
Jeff Louella: You know, now you’re going to be competing against Patrick because he went over to

496
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:12.480
Jeff Louella: H refs. But in general, they’re like, it seems deep crawl like this, the knowledge base has really grown, which is which is great. Like the articles or webinars or something. I look forward to every time they get launched

497
00:58:12.570 –> 00:58:17.640
Ashley Berman Hale: Oh my gosh, what a smart team, right. So first of all, I could meet Patrick and an arm wrestle so

498
00:58:17.700 –> 00:58:19.320
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m not right, but

499
00:58:20.520 –> 00:58:26.790
Ashley Berman Hale: But I might team is really great. The marketing team does a lot of crazy cool stuff so mean, everyone knows like Sam and Rachel and Jen and

500
00:58:27.240 –> 00:58:34.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Those are people who aren’t traditional SEOs and they’re smarter than most people I know, like they are awesome. My team we’re professional services team.

501
00:58:35.250 –> 00:58:43.440
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s six or seven of us, depending on the day but also hiring. So if you’re a crazy fabulous curious tech SEO and you want to work with me, which

502
00:58:43.950 –> 00:58:54.060
Ashley Berman Hale: Godspeed but ping me there too. So the company’s doing well. They just went through Series B funding and I’m just excited to work with more fantastic people, but they’ve really done something special.

503
00:58:54.510 –> 00:59:04.530
Ashley Berman Hale: In terms of priority to prioritizing data and good things for clients as well as making a really, really fantastic team and hiring obviously humble people right so that’s great.

504
00:59:06.240 –> 00:59:12.600
Jamie Alberico: So you guys always have a sandwich for me and you guys always have the Chargers that I forgot plane somewhere.

505
00:59:13.740 –> 00:59:14.280
Jamie Alberico: On a T.

506
00:59:14.700 –> 00:59:28.140
Ashley Berman Hale: Shirt and Casey spell something like you have like the most. I don’t know. Hearing a material company like we will take care of anyone. So again, if you’re ever curious whether it’s job right here on my site for free, like just paying us for a helpful group.

507
00:59:28.830 –> 00:59:29.760
Jamie Alberico: Very good human

508
00:59:30.300 –> 00:59:32.670
Ashley Berman Hale: With sandwiches with sandwiches.

509
00:59:34.200 –> 00:59:39.390
Jacob Stoops: Oh so want to make sure we’re respectful of time I

510
00:59:40.440 –> 00:59:52.740
Jacob Stoops: Don’t think we’re gonna have time for news. I think we’re, we’re probably not going to, because we’ve had such wonderful conversation that is flowing. So naturally I don’t think we’re going to deep dive into technical SEO. I think we’ve talked

511
00:59:54.180 –> 00:59:59.580
Jacob Stoops: Quite enough. I did want to talk about a few more few more things before we wrap up the episode.

512
01:00:00.240 –> 01:00:13.140
Jacob Stoops: But because you guys have been so awesome to talk to. It’s been one of our most free flowing conversation. So I definitely, definitely. Thank you guys for that. It’s been really good, really good conversation.

513
01:00:14.640 –> 01:00:27.540
Jacob Stoops: Um, you guys have mentioned several times and I agree. I’ve noticed it. I, I sometimes choose not to take part, because I have a lot of my own thoughts, but you’ve mentioned the

514
01:00:29.100 –> 01:00:43.830
Jacob Stoops: The level of discourse in the in the industry over probably the last five to five to 10 years and I don’t know. I think I’ve noticed it as well, getting getting better, but it had gotten

515
01:00:44.910 –> 01:00:54.360
Jacob Stoops: A lot of it’s centered around conferences and whatnot, but it had gotten pretty toxic and pretty nasty there for for a little while. So I was wondering if y’all could

516
01:00:55.290 –> 01:01:07.020
Jacob Stoops: Talk a little bit about that and why you think it’s maybe gotten a little bit better. Over the course of the last, I don’t know, I feel like maybe the last year, maybe, maybe I’m overshooting that I don’t know but

517
01:01:07.470 –> 01:01:14.370
Jacob Stoops: I felt it also being really bad and then getting a little bit better. But I don’t know if you guys could talk about that a little bit.

518
01:01:17.670 –> 01:01:27.000
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, I’m awesome well know, Jamie. You go first because I, yeah, I got to the end of something and I pretend like I’ve been drinking a whole time and I will just eat up all the time here.

519
01:01:28.320 –> 01:01:29.640
Jamie Alberico: But I love listening to your story.

520
01:01:30.150 –> 01:01:31.320
Jamie Alberico: very articulate and

521
01:01:31.410 –> 01:01:47.220
Jamie Alberico: You know you’ve always been a great mentor for me and this kind of scenario. I honestly can say I’ve been very lucky and I’ve only really been met with kindness from people at these conferences and support. I like to think perhaps that

522
01:01:48.240 –> 01:01:54.990
Jamie Alberico: I try and bring up there as well. But there’s no critic of really going to be as harsh as my internal one

523
01:01:55.440 –> 01:02:08.850
Jamie Alberico: So I think keeping her quiet on focused on when I’m there to do maybe take it away from me and giving attention to some of these more interesting moments that I hear about after the fact.

524
01:02:10.290 –> 01:02:14.580
Jamie Alberico: I haven’t been the first chance I can speak to a new the kerfuffle

525
01:02:16.620 –> 01:02:25.890
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, and I mean events bring their own level of potential toxicity, the industry and of itself has been a little tough to. So I’ve been in it for about 15 ish years maybe a little more

526
01:02:26.790 –> 01:02:39.300
Ashley Berman Hale: Um, and I did a lot of volunteer work and forums, that’s how I got that’s how I got started in a lot of it and forums can be a really awful, awful place to be, especially if you’re an idiot and just use your regular name Ashley’s everyone knows you’re a girl.

527
01:02:41.370 –> 01:02:42.600
Jamie Alberico: Was true man.

528
01:02:43.230 –> 01:02:45.360
Jamie Alberico: I’m not ever gave me with an androgynous name.

529
01:02:45.480 –> 01:02:51.300
Ashley Berman Hale: I know that so nice. Um, but it is, it’s been bad, but I think in a lot of the ways it’s getting better.

530
01:02:51.810 –> 01:02:57.570
Ashley Berman Hale: I just want to call out that, you know, I come from a place of privilege, even though it can be tough to be in tech as a woman.

531
01:02:58.380 –> 01:03:06.960
Ashley Berman Hale: I am already five steps ahead of some other folks, especially people of color LGBT Q that are out like there’s there’s a stiffness there and

532
01:03:07.470 –> 01:03:14.850
Ashley Berman Hale: I would really like it to be more fluid where people can come in and present and there’s a focus on ideas. I think we are getting there. I think we have warmed the ground so much

533
01:03:15.450 –> 01:03:23.370
Ashley Berman Hale: And I think that I can be a bit spicy unintentionally and very clumsy with my calls to try and make things a little bit more better and inclusive.

534
01:03:23.820 –> 01:03:33.150
Ashley Berman Hale: But for the most part people have been very generous and forgiving in terms of how I approach that and it spawns some really good conversations so

535
01:03:34.020 –> 01:03:40.140
Ashley Berman Hale: I think we’re getting better and a lot of ways, and I hope to keep saying encouragement in that way. I will see say that

536
01:03:41.100 –> 01:03:48.900
Ashley Berman Hale: There’s one conference in particular that is really great for me in terms of seeing that as the NGA Atlanta conference to Angular Atlanta conference where

537
01:03:49.560 –> 01:03:57.930
Ashley Berman Hale: The founder there works hard to make all majority women or people of color and especially women of color speakers without repeating speakers. It’s pretty fantastic.

538
01:03:59.010 –> 01:04:07.350
Ashley Berman Hale: And it takes a lot of work, like the organizer Zach will be there to tell you, it takes a lot of work to advise any other events, but he’ll tell you that the work is worth it. So,

539
01:04:08.070 –> 01:04:14.910
Ashley Berman Hale: We’re getting better. I’d like to push a little harder in that area. So leave with kindness, but also psychological safety for everyone to

540
01:04:16.620 –> 01:04:27.870
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I agree. And having been so I’ll just, I’ll just come right out with it. I am I dislike conferences and it’s partly because I’m anti social

541
01:04:28.770 –> 01:04:40.290
Jacob Stoops: A little bit. Although I can be social. But I you know I get uncomfortable and nervous in large groups of people. And so that makes a conference for me not very cool.

542
01:04:43.260 –> 01:04:47.100
Jacob Stoops: I’m like, I’m just really bad at small talk, and like literally

543
01:04:47.700 –> 01:05:03.390
Jacob Stoops: It makes me sweat just thinking of having to small talk. Not that I don’t like. I like people just fine. But like in large settings. I always feel super, super awkward, which means just by definition conferences are just not my thing.

544
01:05:04.650 –> 01:05:17.340
Jacob Stoops: But then there’s also, you know, what types of things go on at conferences with respect to harassment and the way people act towards each other and the, the lack of kindness.

545
01:05:18.510 –> 01:05:23.700
Jacob Stoops: I’ve run. And I don’t know if you have you guys ever heard the term conference circuit SEO.

546
01:05:24.840 –> 01:05:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Is that a new thing.

547
01:05:25.680 –> 01:05:32.940
Jamie Alberico: Yes, I turned out on leave, and I understand you correctly or first do the kind of repeating

548
01:05:33.360 –> 01:05:33.600
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

549
01:05:33.960 –> 01:05:37.980
Jamie Alberico: There’s a couple of key speakers, they tend to get things paid for, you’ve got other people

550
01:05:38.640 –> 01:05:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Yes.

551
01:05:39.450 –> 01:05:50.250
Jamie Alberico: Please go to our last represented in our community. And it’s very real that a lot of venues are going to charge money, a lot of money for these tickets and and don’t even pay for the speakers.

552
01:05:51.630 –> 01:05:52.500
Jacob Stoops: Right, right.

553
01:05:52.920 –> 01:05:53.820
Jamie Alberico: Very prohibitive.

554
01:05:54.360 –> 01:05:55.530
Jacob Stoops: There are

555
01:05:56.730 –> 01:06:08.670
Jacob Stoops: In I’m definitely not trying to lump. Anybody, anybody into this but this story for me is very, very specific to some people that I’ve worked with who

556
01:06:09.420 –> 01:06:17.430
Jacob Stoops: Were what I call a quote unquote on the conference circuit which means they went to and spoke at a lot of conferences and were looked up to by

557
01:06:17.850 –> 01:06:28.080
Jacob Stoops: A lot of people as subject matter experts. But then when it came time for them to actually work with me together on certain accounts.

558
01:06:28.800 –> 01:06:38.310
Jacob Stoops: I found that they fell very, very flat in terms of my expectation of their level of quality and what I actually got from them.

559
01:06:39.060 –> 01:06:51.840
Jacob Stoops: So that has left me with a little bit of a bad taste in my, in my mouth with respect to what I’ll call certain conference circuit SEO. So just in general conferences are

560
01:06:52.860 –> 01:07:00.000
Jacob Stoops: Not my favorite thing. But what I have enjoyed seeing recently is the increased focus on

561
01:07:01.260 –> 01:07:11.940
Jacob Stoops: One acting better treating people better and hopefully fewer instances of harassment. I know women, definitely go through

562
01:07:12.600 –> 01:07:21.780
Jacob Stoops: A lot and I feel like I’ve never been like Jamie, just like you said, it’s always for me been second hand. I feel like every man definitely knows

563
01:07:22.110 –> 01:07:27.300
Jacob Stoops: Of a woman who has experienced some sort of sexual harassment. But for me, I’ve never

564
01:07:27.780 –> 01:07:33.780
Jacob Stoops: It’s never been something I’ve witnessed or anything like that. So I’m always only hearing about it secondhand and I’m less than

565
01:07:34.470 –> 01:07:50.220
Jacob Stoops: Less than aware of when that that type of thing might be happening. If I were aware. I would definitely definitely speak up. So I’m I feel like sometimes in a bit of an awkward position of wanting to speak up and being supportive but ever being like Johnny on the spot for when an event.

566
01:07:51.300 –> 01:07:55.350
Jacob Stoops: Happens or transpires so little bit of an awkward awkward.

567
01:07:56.490 –> 01:08:07.890
Jacob Stoops: Position and I would say so obviously that needs to get better. I don’t know how much that is still going on. But I know it was pretty pervasive in the past and super unfortunate.

568
01:08:08.430 –> 01:08:18.240
Jacob Stoops: The other thing that I’m really enjoying is the emphasis on speaker balance. I, I, I have a hard time when I see

569
01:08:19.710 –> 01:08:26.730
Jacob Stoops: An SEO team at a company that is entirely and I’ve experienced this a lot in the past entirely male dominated

570
01:08:27.540 –> 01:08:31.710
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, they’re celebrating hiring the first female CEO and a team in 2019

571
01:08:32.400 –> 01:08:34.080
Jamie Alberico: I mean that’s an incredibly sad.

572
01:08:34.440 –> 01:08:39.810
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s it’s really sad. And I have a hard time with conferences where I look at the

573
01:08:40.200 –> 01:08:49.350
Jacob Stoops: The speaker lineup and I don’t see a picture of somebody with color. I don’t see a picture of somebody who’s female or you see it, but there’s not nearly enough balance so

574
01:08:50.070 –> 01:08:58.680
Jacob Stoops: Not something that I think is, is a good thing. And something that I think is trending in the right direction. I don’t think it’s entirely there.

575
01:08:59.220 –> 01:09:10.920
Jacob Stoops: But I would like to see more more conferences and more companies strive for that balance and not balance for the sake of balance but balance because you really believe

576
01:09:11.760 –> 01:09:19.470
Jacob Stoops: That that those those people and I’m definitely one of the privileged people really bring value in a different perspective.

577
01:09:19.920 –> 01:09:27.480
Jacob Stoops: Not just hiring or booking because you need a certain ratio, right. So that’s something that I’m hoping

578
01:09:28.110 –> 01:09:37.260
Jacob Stoops: Gets a little bit better. But again, as I’ve said before, because I’m kind of an outside observer. I don’t choose to go to a lot of conferences.

579
01:09:37.950 –> 01:09:48.600
Jacob Stoops: I’m more kind of I feel like routing from the sidelines and trying to push where where I can in my areas of influence which are which are a few outside of my own house so

580
01:09:50.340 –> 01:10:06.330
Jamie Alberico: I ok here is because that one for me first one I totally understanding the lack of comfort being around that many people I’ve been asked how I seem to to come on stage and my secret ready guys years of practice with a panic disorder.

581
01:10:06.780 –> 01:10:09.210
Jamie Alberico: Like I have learned how to have a heart attack feel like

582
01:10:09.210 –> 01:10:18.750
Jamie Alberico: Even the Rolodex prices on keep a calm state so repurpose if you if you’ve been through that you think of it as reclaiming and repurposing all those years of practice.

583
01:10:19.770 –> 01:10:25.410
Jamie Alberico: And secondly, there are now more groups out here who are advocating to get their women together a presentation together.

584
01:10:25.710 –> 01:10:33.690
Jamie Alberico: If you are a winless there are used one support women in tech SEO, there is a women in tech SEO Slack channel you can find them on Twitter and on Facebook.

585
01:10:34.020 –> 01:10:44.190
Jamie Alberico: Joining that conversation. I know some really great conferences coming up that have reached out to them to try and help balance out our speakers find people who are representing very skilled

586
01:10:45.330 –> 01:10:48.630
Jamie Alberico: Technologies to be on stage and present from their perspective.

587
01:10:49.800 –> 01:10:53.880
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah. And if you’re a sweet guy like maybe instead of accepting the panel.

588
01:10:54.420 –> 01:11:03.210
Ashley Berman Hale: Or accepting the speaking gig. Why don’t you recommend somebody else make it easier on the event organizers because they always say they can’t. But I guarantee there’s someone around you.

589
01:11:03.870 –> 01:11:08.190
Ashley Berman Hale: Who may be a first time or second time speaker, but has really incredible things to say.

590
01:11:08.670 –> 01:11:14.670
Ashley Berman Hale: Because I think if you speak too much often you’re missing out on that constant learning that you need in order to stay on top of the industry.

591
01:11:15.330 –> 01:11:19.290
Ashley Berman Hale: Or if you’re never speaking, then you’re missing out on an opportunity to find in your craft so

592
01:11:20.070 –> 01:11:29.610
Ashley Berman Hale: It’s great that some people will have reached that pinnacle, and they are trusted and loved and everyone likes to see them speak but it means nothing. If you don’t turn around and homework, you know, two more people up.

593
01:11:29.640 –> 01:11:31.110
Jeff Louella: So I would say share the spotlight.

594
01:11:31.590 –> 01:11:43.800
Ashley Berman Hale: And I don’t have a huge network or you know much influence but if anyone out there who hasn’t spoken before wants to speak. If I could put you in contact with anyone or any conference. Like, I’m happy to help.

595
01:11:44.850 –> 01:11:49.380
Ashley Berman Hale: Said, I don’t have a ton of influence, but I’m willing to use it to just get more voices up there. We should all do that.

596
01:11:51.150 –> 01:11:59.730
Jeff Louella: Yeah, it’s funny. I’ve been working on a little side project where I’ve downloaded the titles of every SEO speech.

597
01:12:00.840 –> 01:12:11.280
Jeff Louella: By the last like two years. And my goal was, I was going to try to make like a SEO speech generator that just put out a topic because that’s one of the things when I

598
01:12:12.120 –> 01:12:25.440
Jeff Louella: Think about doing any type of speaking. I’m like, what am I going to talk about that no one else is talking about. So I was like, hey, and I can want to play with AI and machine learning. I was like, maybe I can make a generator just generates topics. And here’s your next speech.

599
01:12:26.970 –> 01:12:28.020
Jamie Alberico: I would love to see this.

600
01:12:28.230 –> 01:12:42.330
Jeff Louella: Play. Yeah, it was kind of gonna be tongue in cheek, because I just wanted to like I wanted to be bad AI to so it made it funny but so that is in the works. It’s. But one thing I noticed was when I would Dee doop. There were a lot

601
01:12:43.350 –> 01:12:48.930
Jeff Louella: So that was one of the things that were there was a lot of that was like duplicate on air and it made me really think like

602
01:12:50.100 –> 01:12:56.220
Jeff Louella: You know, going and a lot of it might have been like the digital summits, where people travel and do the same presentation all across the country.

603
01:12:56.940 –> 01:13:03.090
Jeff Louella: But there were a lot of like the same things we were talking about and that’s one thing with the tech SEO boost conference.

604
01:13:03.450 –> 01:13:13.530
Jeff Louella: It was like something totally different copy way off guard. Because even last year, maybe a Catalan or one person talked about AI or machine learning and Python and this year was 80% of the people.

605
01:13:14.130 –> 01:13:24.450
Jeff Louella: Which which was was pretty interesting. But in general, I love the, you know, I want to go out and talk a little bit more, but I really love to do it more in the local level and trying to

606
01:13:25.080 –> 01:13:30.840
Jeff Louella: There’s not a huge SEO community here in Atlanta. So something I’d like to start to put together and build out

607
01:13:33.660 –> 01:13:47.100
Jeff Louella: But what I’m just kind of like to end the show just kind of asking a certain question and just kind of advice like if you were someone who was starting off in the SEO world right now. What kind of advice would you give someone who is starting out.

608
01:13:52.440 –> 01:14:03.840
Ashley Berman Hale: I’m yeah I’m used to always jumping in first here so I’m cognizant of that. I’m sorry. I would just say stay curious and stay kind, um, that’s it.

609
01:14:04.770 –> 01:14:06.720
Jeff Louella: That that’s just a range of kindness.

610
01:14:07.500 –> 01:14:08.340
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah.

611
01:14:08.370 –> 01:14:10.110
Jamie Alberico: Well, I am page the kindness.

612
01:14:10.560 –> 01:14:18.720
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, a rampage of kindness, please. And I have this, uh, this is kind of gross, but I’ve been a professional coaching and stuff like that, where they say hey,

613
01:14:19.230 –> 01:14:27.180
Ashley Berman Hale: Create a tagline for yourself. And that sounds a little silly, but I have one. And I’ve been using it for over a decade and it’s it’s really done me well and

614
01:14:27.690 –> 01:14:42.000
Ashley Berman Hale: My personal tagline is stupid work. So that means a lot of different things to me. But part of that is just staying curious and you know being nice to people and figuring out where you can help rather than stand on the shoulders of others. So whatever you do, do good work.

615
01:14:42.780 –> 01:14:43.860
Jeff Louella: Awesome. What do you think, Jamie.

616
01:14:46.950 –> 01:14:57.480
Jamie Alberico: I would say that there are no dumb questions engineering a room where you only understand and 20 week of what’s going on. That’s okay. I’ll take notes.

617
01:14:58.350 –> 01:15:06.690
Jamie Alberico: Ask for the handle. What do you mean by this word, particularly in technology. I have some English. I’m looking in bed with dev teams like stocks.

618
01:15:07.500 –> 01:15:18.060
Jamie Alberico: And people use different words, getting the same thing on half of our value of SEO is being able to map up those synonyms and translate between these teams.

619
01:15:18.420 –> 01:15:24.420
Jamie Alberico: Isn’t the end. We all want to make good things. We all have this desire to those good things to be found and

620
01:15:24.840 –> 01:15:39.450
Jamie Alberico: This is how we get there is by being willing to be humble and say, I don’t understand what that means. Could you explain it. Just keep learning. Even when it hurts your head and you crying about the install

621
01:15:41.850 –> 01:15:48.480
Ashley Berman Hale: So many times I’ve like cried, and I’m like, I don’t understand. And then an hour later I’ll be like, holy shit, I figured it out like

622
01:15:48.840 –> 01:15:55.590
Jamie Alberico: Yeah, it’s a crime, and it certainly feels worth it. Like you’re just hitting the wall heading the law hitting a woman suddenly and make sense and it’s beautiful.

623
01:15:56.190 –> 01:15:57.150
Jamie Alberico: Yes, and have a

624
01:15:57.270 –> 01:15:57.810
Good thing.

625
01:15:58.890 –> 01:16:01.590
Jamie Alberico: I think tech SEOs walk that line between the

626
01:16:02.820 –> 01:16:03.960
Jamie Alberico: Federal ambition.

627
01:16:08.970 –> 01:16:14.760
Ashley Berman Hale: Yeah, oh yeah, she is sorry last thought. Don’t be afraid to ask them questions. All right. I promise I’m done talking. Yeah.

628
01:16:17.430 –> 01:16:34.710
Jeff Louella: Awesome. Well, we’d love to thank you for coming on the show me, I think, is such great conversation that we had, I feel that you two together. It was it was a great idea. And we’re trying to put you separately, but I think together me. It was just awesome and made the conversation flow better

629
01:16:35.010 –> 01:16:35.970
Jacob Stoops: Dynamic Duo

630
01:16:36.600 –> 01:16:37.320
Exactly.

631
01:16:38.850 –> 01:16:39.270
Jacob Stoops: Alright.

632
01:16:39.750 –> 01:16:40.230
Jeff Louella: So my

633
01:16:40.560 –> 01:16:41.250
Jamie Alberico: Life, mate.

634
01:16:41.670 –> 01:16:45.330
Ashley Berman Hale: Yes, I love you very much. Jamie, it’s good to have a way

635
01:16:45.360 –> 01:16:45.990
Jamie Alberico: Of you to bed.

636
01:16:47.760 –> 01:16:48.750
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye guys

637
01:16:50.400 –> 01:16:50.970
Thank you.

#31: Angela Bergmann

Episode Summary

In this episode, we’re chatting with Angela Bergmann, Senior SEO Strategist at Advance Local and fellow Ohioan! 

We talk about: 

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:02.280 –> 00:00:09.480
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops again here with the Page 2 Podcast. How’s everybody doing?

2
00:00:10.380 –> 00:00:12.960
Angela Bergmann: Right, assuming everybody’s doing great.

3
00:00:13.349 –> 00:00:16.410
Jacob Stoops: We’re also here with Mr. Jeff, Louella

4
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Jeff Louella: Hey,

5
00:00:19.470 –> 00:00:23.790
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I’m gonna need you to be a little bit more boisterous with your intro

6
00:00:25.380 –> 00:00:26.850
Jacob Stoops: Your two weeks out from me.

7
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Jacob Stoops: Forgetting

8
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Jacob Stoops: So like, I’m thinking you’re really coming into your own. So that’s one give me

9
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Jacob Stoops: More

10
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Jacob Stoops: Give me a little more

11
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Jeff Louella: Know, everybody.

12
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Jacob Stoops: Here we go.

13
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Jacob Stoops: And then we are

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Angela Bergmann: Here with

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Jacob Stoops: Angela Berkman. How are you doing, Angela.

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Angela Bergmann: Fantastic. How are you guys doing we’re doing

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Jacob Stoops: Awesome. Actually, I’m not doing awesome. I have to confess about 45 minutes ago. And I’m gonna I’m gonna deviate into a quick story. I got an email.

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Angela Bergmann: From GoDaddy.

19
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Angela Bergmann: Who I

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Jacob Stoops: Use for hosting. I don’t know why I use them and

21
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Jacob Stoops: I’m sure people will yell at me about that.

22
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Angela Bergmann: But

23
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Jacob Stoops: It’s just been who I’ve been using. And I’ve been too lazy to switch that I bought some new Linux hosting and I did not buy

24
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Jacob Stoops: 45

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Angela Bergmann: Minutes ago and

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Jacob Stoops: 45

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Jacob Stoops: Minutes ago so I

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Jacob Stoops: Just before we all jumped on had to call it GoDaddy customer service to

29
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Jacob Stoops: One cancel that order because I did not lie.

30
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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

31
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Jacob Stoops: And to figure out, like, who the hell hacked my account and

32
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Jacob Stoops: I came to find out that

33
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Jacob Stoops: One domain. I own. And I’m going to have to take care of it after we after we finished recording is actually now a Russian gambling websites. So it looks like

34
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Angela Bergmann: There’s been some Russian

35
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Jeff Louella: Again,

36
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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, the account. The Russian

37
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Angela Bergmann: lessons are trying to get in and impersonate me

38
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Jacob Stoops: And in fact, seem to have called GoDaddy.

39
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Jacob Stoops: With my information and ordered

40
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Jacob Stoops: The hosting for, for whatever reason, so yeah.

41
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Angela Bergmann: I

42
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Jacob Stoops: Had to reset my password.

43
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Jacob Stoops: That up some two factor authentication and

44
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Jacob Stoops: I’m coming into this

45
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Jacob Stoops: A little bit annoyed doesn’t know.

46
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Angela Bergmann: We all want to spend our Friday. Right, exactly.

47
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Jacob Stoops: Exactly dealing with Russian interference.

48
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Pollution

49
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Jacob Stoops: Anyways, so

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Jacob Stoops: Angela good authority.

51
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Jacob Stoops: That you are a senior

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Jacob Stoops: SEO strategist and advanced local and I’ll have you know that you are the first Ohio and that we’ve brought on and not to say that you’re the you’re the first native Ohio.

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Angela Bergmann: Some other folks in

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Jacob Stoops: Native to Ohio, but they don’t live there. Now, you’re the first one that actually still lives in Ohio and and in terms of proximity. I’m in Columbus, you’re, you’re the closest interviewee to me in terms of actual proximity so

55
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Angela Bergmann: Congratulations Ohio pride.

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Angela Bergmann: Yay so guys

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Jacob Stoops: I oh

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Angela Bergmann: That’s all I know.

59
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Angela Bergmann: And people and people who do not

60
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Jacob Stoops: Follow. Follow college football are going to have no idea what actually do not follow Ohio State or

61
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Jacob Stoops: No idea what just happened.

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Angela Bergmann: You play hang on sloopy and will be good. Exactly, exactly.

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So,

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Angela Bergmann: You are in

65
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Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember. Did you say you

66
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Jacob Stoops: Work in Akron and live in

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Jacob Stoops: Cleveland or live in Cleveland.

68
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Jacob Stoops: And work in Akron.

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Angela Bergmann: Upset I live in Akron, and I work in Cleveland. OK, so the

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Angela Bergmann: Branded up to

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Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Cool, I am I work in the land and I’m from where LeBron is from actually the same part of accurate. Even so, I have a lot of games pride.

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Jeff Louella: Yeah. Brown of SEO.

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Jacob Stoops: You go to his, his high school

75
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Jacob Stoops: St. Vincent St.

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Angela Bergmann: No, actually I went to the school. He didn’t go to because he went to private school. Okay.

77
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Angela Bergmann: Okay. All right.

78
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Jacob Stoops: So,

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Jacob Stoops: I have to ask you before we get into your background on another tangent. Did you watch the Browns game last Thursday.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally. What

81
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Angela Bergmann: Happened. I’ve got

82
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Jacob Stoops: Like I feel like I’ve haven’t been able to talk to

83
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Jacob Stoops: anybody except maybe my

84
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Angela Bergmann: Basically just

85
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Jacob Stoops: Knowing about the whole situation.

86
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Like

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Jacob Stoops: What the hell happened like

88
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Jacob Stoops: What’s going on here with with our brownies and

89
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Jacob Stoops: Mr. Miles, yo.

90
00:04:39.720 –> 00:04:47.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s the it’s the we hate the Steelers so it’s already going to be a contentious game and then like I’m obviously mad at Garrett

91
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Angela Bergmann: Acting like an idiot. I’m sitting Rudolph from the head, but his helmet. Getting down the line, you know, open Joby shoving in not good.

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Angela Bergmann: You know, but like Rudolph not getting any punishment for escalating the fight is what makes me mad. And the other thing that makes me mad, is that I know that they’re escalating punishments for things, but like

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Angela Bergmann: Convicted wife leaders get a 16 suspension yep and Garrett getting an indefinite suspension for hitting a guy on the field during a fight that was escalated with a helmet. Yeah, use a little unfair.

94
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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

95
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Angela Bergmann: It’s fun got

96
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Jacob Stoops: Kareem hunt on our team and we’re not fielding a team.

97
00:05:36.090 –> 00:05:38.850
Angela Bergmann: Full of choir boys. Yeah, yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Eight games for reading a woman and

99
00:05:43.650 –> 00:05:43.830
Angela Bergmann: It.

100
00:05:43.920 –> 00:05:44.880
Jacob Stoops: hits a quarterback.

101
00:05:45.210 –> 00:05:48.300
Jacob Stoops: In his head with a helmet. Now granted, he could have killed him. So there is

102
00:05:49.800 –> 00:05:50.580
Angela Bergmann: Reacting with

103
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Angela Bergmann: Coca Cola.

104
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Jeff Louella: In depth. I saw him kicker.

105
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Angela Bergmann: Though yeah open Jovi like Patsy kicking him while he’s down and it’s not pounds. He got lucky that he didn’t actually really connect too much, but he was kicking. Yeah. Garrett while he was down in like none of them are choirboys without this is like this.

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Jacob Stoops: This all happened with eight seconds.

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Angela Bergmann: Left and to like put in perspective.

108
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Jacob Stoops: The long history that

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Angela Bergmann: We have as as as

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Jacob Stoops: browns fans honestly as as Cleveland fan South

111
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Angela Bergmann: Until the Cavs championship. A few

112
00:06:24.750 –> 00:06:29.010
Jacob Stoops: Years ago, being a Cleveland fan over the course of the last 30 or 40

113
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Angela Bergmann: Years 20 years

114
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Angela Bergmann: It’s been just complete

115
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Jacob Stoops: Misery and with the browns. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: You’re sick. First off, our team was taken.

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Jacob Stoops: Away then came back.

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Angela Bergmann: Garbage.

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Jacob Stoops: Since it came back. Yeah, they

120
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Jacob Stoops: Always

121
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Jacob Stoops: Find a way to disappoint us so like to really put it in perspective, this is the first

122
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Angela Bergmann: Factory sadness.

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00:06:51.450 –> 00:06:53.340
Jacob Stoops: Are two rivals in the same season.

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Jacob Stoops: That being the Steelers and the Ravens.

125
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Angela Bergmann: And I was, I was on cloud nine. I was like, yes.

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Jacob Stoops: We didn’t just beat the Steelers

127
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Angela Bergmann: I’m sitting there going like this is great.

128
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Jacob Stoops: This is great.

129
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Jacob Stoops: And then with

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Angela Bergmann: Eight seconds left.

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Jacob Stoops: We see this kind of melee and like my heart sinks and I’m like, they couldn’t they couldn’t allow us as fans to get out of this game without disappointing us

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Jacob Stoops: One more, one

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Jacob Stoops: More time as a brown

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. For the other shoe to

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Jacob Stoops: Drop and like we’re gonna win the

136
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Jacob Stoops: Game and the other shoe isn’t going to drop and then Frank or

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Jacob Stoops: prompt me it was like, Nope. Nope.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah, there’s

139
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Jacob Stoops: just dropped in a big way in an embarrassingly Cleveland way so

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You

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Angela Bergmann: Have factory and stab this yeah it is the factory of

142
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Jacob Stoops: Sadness. So

143
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Jacob Stoops: The

144
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Jacob Stoops: The unimportant stuff.

145
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Angela Bergmann: Like important

146
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Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. Tell us about your

147
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Jacob Stoops: YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE DID.

148
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Angela Bergmann: You come from, who are

149
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Jacob Stoops: You

150
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Jacob Stoops: How did you get into SEO.

151
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Angela Bergmann: So I got into SEO through Twitter really in like 2007 so taking it all the way back. I decided when we got our first desktop computer, and like 2000 that

152
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Angela Bergmann: Websites look really cool. I want to learn how to do that. So I taught myself how to build websites I started doing like personal journaling, as it was back then. Like you buy a domain and you create a journal online.

153
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Angela Bergmann: Got into content management systems as they were coming around. So like gray matter be to movable type

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Angela Bergmann: Got into WordPress got very heavily into using WordPress and like the personal website scene because that was pretty popular with like teenage girls and like early 20s adult girls, creating just personal lifestyle type sites, what we essentially consider it now.

155
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Angela Bergmann: And I got super into social media because that was a big part of that scene.

156
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Angela Bergmann: I was, I was working retail like cashier and I was super into social media playing video games doing websites and

157
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Angela Bergmann: Guy that I followed on Twitter that we had a lot of music in common with like, hey, I see you’re really good at building like WordPress sites. You’re really good at social media. We need an intern at our marketing agency. Would you be interested. And I was like, yeah.

158
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Angela Bergmann: I interviewed started internship got hired in and they taught me SEO, and PPC and kind of like where to start learning more about it and how to like pick up on it.

159
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Angela Bergmann: And I just got super into it from there and just kind of took off and I i went back and forth for a while, between like web development and then digital marketing, but

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Angela Bergmann: I always really liked SEO and SEO is where I really love to be and that’s finally where I get to be kind of little time after spending time doing a little bit of everything.

161
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Jacob Stoops: So what brought you to advance local

162
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Angela Bergmann: So I wanted the the advanced local because I love doing agency work.

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Angela Bergmann: I know that’s not typical for a lot of SEO is a lot of SEOs that I run into like to be like the in house person doing the super deep dive.

164
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Angela Bergmann: Looking through logs that kind of stuff. Whereas I really like the fast paced nature of agency work and day to day. I don’t know what vertical I’ll be looking at

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Angela Bergmann: So you know I have clients that run the gamut from, you know, roofers to nonprofit foundations. So it really is everybody. And I love that.

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Jacob Stoops: So one question I have to ask them is, so you said you love agency work, you’re, you’re, I think, a rare, rare breed.

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Angela Bergmann: I also

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Jacob Stoops: Feel like I’m a better fit in agency, a I call an agency world because it’s just this crazy

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Jacob Stoops: Difficult monster of a

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Angela Bergmann: Stress

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Jacob Stoops: stress ball that I seem to thrive.

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Angela Bergmann: In, and I think that there are

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Angela Bergmann: Very few.

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Jacob Stoops: Lot of people working in what I call agency agency world.

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Jacob Stoops: Not everybody’s a good fit for it. Some people are a better fit for

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Angela Bergmann: In house so like

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Jacob Stoops: Aside from just it being fast paced. What I guess intrinsic qualities do you feel like you have that sort of lend you to that versus being on the House side.

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Angela Bergmann: So, and this is one of the things that I really look for when I’m when I’m hiring people for our team is I look for agency SEO, you have to have a desire to know something about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: Not even necessarily super in depth because when you’re on the agency side you’re for a long time, you’re usually a little bit more high level. I feel like

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Angela Bergmann: But you need to have a willingness to be knowledgeable about everything and have that desire to learn about things that have nothing to do with your personal life.

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Angela Bergmann: I know way more about Windows and any girl could ever want to know, but it’s because of my, my client is. And it’s not because I necessarily interested in it, but I consume knowledge.

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Jeff Louella: I know more about

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I think you take

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Angela Bergmann: Like, Oh man, I just, I really needed to know which window would be perfect, which vinyl window would be perfect for my, you know, turn of the century home yeah

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That’s right.

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Angela Bergmann: But you combine that with I think people that work really well on agency.

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Angela Bergmann: Are those people that like to procrastinate because we work better under pressure and agency is constant pressures. So we constantly have that stimulation that we feel like we need to produce our best work.

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Jacob Stoops: There.

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Angela Bergmann: There is

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Jacob Stoops: I do find that there’s more pressure working

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Angela Bergmann: In the agency environment.

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Jacob Stoops: And there’s more. There’s definitely more variability, you’re not working on the same thing every day, you’re not working in the same industry.

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Angela Bergmann: Every day, and

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Jacob Stoops: For me, that’s nice. I could see where for other people. That would be pretty obnoxious and there have been times in my career where I when I have gone to the in house side where that’s what I thought I wanted

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Jacob Stoops: In there are times where, like, I was pretty fulfilled doing that coming to work and working on the, the same thing every day. But something about the the

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Jacob Stoops: competitive nature. I feel like this is not to say that in house SEOs are not great, because there are many, many great in house SEOs but I feel like the amount of pressure to drive impact leads me to be better at my job. And I think that you get more creativity.

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Jacob Stoops: Out of that because people are constantly trying to think ahead trying to work ahead, trying to make sure in that short time time span that you have, which is usually

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Jacob Stoops: Three, six, or 12 months, your contract in which the you’re getting evaluated and people are deciding whether or not to pay you based on your performance. And a lot of times because implementation is really hard. You’re not getting your recommendations implemented until well

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Angela Bergmann: Into that contract. Yeah.

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I’m

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Jacob Stoops: Aggressive and that

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Jacob Stoops: Means you have to be. We have to be on the cutting

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Angela Bergmann: Edge and that’s

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Jacob Stoops: That’s where I like to. I like to live. I like to live dangerously

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, yeah, you get some you get some try. I feel like I guess a trial. A lot of fun thing because I have like that handful of clients that wants to be cutting edge. So they’re willing to pay to try the thing

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Jacob Stoops: What is the

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Jacob Stoops: area of expertise that you have, because you’ve worked on a particular client that is the furthest

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Angela Bergmann: Thing from your

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Jacob Stoops: Personality, or maybe the oddest thing for you. Besides windows.

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Angela Bergmann: So,

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Angela Bergmann: Probably um that’s so tough because I

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Angela Bergmann: I’m such a crazy knowledge person. I feel like everything is relevant to me because I want to know things about everything.

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Angela Bergmann: I probably autos, I’m not super into cars. I’m just not. But I’ve come up with some very creative ways to address SEO for automotive clients.

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Angela Bergmann: Because they have those inherent difficulties that come with like the content management and like inventory management system they’re locked into their page speed is always going to be terrible.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s a given they’re going to have technical things that we’re never going to be able to touch and there’s no point even reporting on it because they’re just, there’s no hope there.

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Angela Bergmann: So I have kind of work to figure out, like, what can we do that will make an effect and actually show some organic growth for them. Um,

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Angela Bergmann: Without

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Angela Bergmann: Having to get into the things that we would typically want to touch.

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Angela Bergmann: Jeff, you work on a

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Jacob Stoops: Pretty well known who will not be named here.

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Jacob Stoops: Automotive client.

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What are your thoughts about that.

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Jeff Louella: Well,

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Jeff Louella: That’s automotive parts, so it is what e commerce, but

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Some of those parts are so

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Jeff Louella: Specific

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Jeff Louella: And

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Jeff Louella: It is

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Jeff Louella: There’s a ton of competition out there. Right, so it’s it’s

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Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I’m, I’m always battling

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Angela Bergmann: That aspect of just like

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Jeff Louella: We have an oxygen sensor. It’s like

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Jeff Louella: I get every site has it out there. How do we

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Jeff Louella: Kind of get it out, but they are very

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Angela Bergmann: You know,

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Angela Bergmann: A lot of it is, but I’m

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Jeff Louella: Fighting is like kind of having

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Jeff Louella: Content like trying to build it up to where like your average consumers, looking at it. But the way that the automotive parts world works. It’s like by part numbers, most of the time. Right, so you

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Jeff Louella: Get number

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Jeff Louella: And it’s like,

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Jeff Louella: You’re optimizing for part number and more than someone’s looking for specific

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Jeff Louella: You know, general terms like brake pads or grades for me. He’s not a car person looking. But for someone who’s actually like at an auto shop. They need part, you know, ML or 973 and that comes up first.

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Jeff Louella: Yep. So it’s an interesting

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Jeff Louella: Mix there because every like more people search for Breitbart, then that bottle number, but that model number converts it like 90% while the other one converts at point 1% so it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Exactly. So how are we going to write content to target the actual conversion. Exactly.

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Angela Bergmann: So how do we beat out the other people who use the same exact model number is part of my issues. Yeah, yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah, I’ve done that, I, I’ve also worked with a lot of like

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Angela Bergmann: Manufacturers where their target audience is knows that they need the part that this place makes but they have no idea what it’s called. They just know that they need it.

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Angela Bergmann: Those are always fun.

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Angela Bergmann: Hoping engineers find engineer good time.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: I have a like one

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Jeff Louella: Thing that I know way too much about besides wedding dresses that I’ve never do that. I would

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: Working in the agency world and it’s

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Angela Bergmann: Like

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Jeff Louella: feeding tubes is one that I like.

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Angela Bergmann: Oh yeah. This is especially them into

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Jeff Louella: Now, which is something that I like. I hope no one ever has to learn about but you know now that like there is a major

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Jeff Louella: concern out there when you do need it. So it’s like, how do we know

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Jeff Louella: It’s just weird marketing, things like that, because it’s just like something you expect your doctor. Just to give to you, but

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Jeff Louella: Our brands out there just like you see commercials on prescription TVs, like you get my arthritis medication or get my, you know, I had this where skin disease and you know there’s

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Jeff Louella: Only three drugs out there, but we need to be number one over those

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Jeff Louella: Three and and that’s kind of where I am with in the evening to world right now. It’s kind of interesting.

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Angela Bergmann: Yeah, no. And it’s true like medicals one of those verticals. That’s like personal and professional interest for me so I know way more about medical stuff than any one person probably others.

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Angela Bergmann: But yeah, there’s so many intricacies to it like is your target audience patients, is it caregivers, is it Doctor Is it manufacturers, distributors like

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Angela Bergmann: People don’t think about that side as well. Yeah, yeah. All of the above. So which different types of which different things, are we going to do to address each different audience. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: All one site that’s already

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Angela Bergmann: It’s like you’re

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Jeff Louella: You’re trying to get to the consumer, but doctors also and

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Angela Bergmann: Mostly the people at hospitals that are ordering

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Jeff Louella: You know, it’s like, those are the people who are actually buying because

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Jeff Louella: As a consumer, you’re not

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Angela Bergmann: Necessarily buying insurance for the most part.

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Jeff Louella: So it’s kind of getting them. Yeah.

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Jeff Louella: Exactly and

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Jeff Louella: And computers at hospitals to you.

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Jacob Stoops: Yep. So I don’t know if you guys know this but Columbus, Ohio is a hub for fashion retailers.

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Angela Bergmann: That you didn’t know

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Angela Bergmann: That going in. Yeah.

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria Secret

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Jacob Stoops: The Lunatic.

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Angela Bergmann: Lane Bryant.

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Angela Bergmann: Abercrombie and Fitch all

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Jacob Stoops: Based in Columbus, Ohio, which is crazy. And the reason I say that is because that is my weird really weird one.

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Jacob Stoops: So this

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Angela Bergmann: Is not recent like

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Angela Bergmann: I don’t know anything about fashion. I

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Jacob Stoops: Really don’t

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Jacob Stoops: I can barely get up.

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Jacob Stoops: Pick up my

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Angela Bergmann: Pick out my clothes.

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Jacob Stoops: In the morning, and usually like

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It’s just t shirt energy

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Jacob Stoops: So,

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Jacob Stoops: I’ve worked on a fashion retailer, not one of those that I named a couple of years ago in more than a couple. It was it was before I had a family. So my my oldest son is six years old.

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Jacob Stoops: So this predates predates him so it was before. I should have known anything about children’s clothing and

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Jacob Stoops: I was, I was working on a fashion site for young girls.

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Jacob Stoops: Which

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Like

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Angela Bergmann: Was so

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Jacob Stoops: Like for me as like

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Jacob Stoops: A young

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Jacob Stoops: Not even married at the time person without

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Jacob Stoops: Kids felt so

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Jacob Stoops: weird and creepy and I like

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Jacob Stoops: As I was working on. I was proud to be working on the brand but also I was like, I’m not going to show anybody my search history because if they saw it without

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Contact

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Angela Bergmann: Giant creep so

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Angela Bergmann: That’s my, that’s my weird one and

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Jacob Stoops: It was just, it wasn’t like anything.

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Angela Bergmann: Weird like

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Jacob Stoops: Victoria’s Secret lingerie or anything like that, or anything. It was just normal clothing.

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Jacob Stoops: Except, yes, girls.

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Angela Bergmann: And

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Jacob Stoops: With if somebody had looked at my computer without

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Angela Bergmann: Content.

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Angela Bergmann: And I was visiting that website.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

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I think I would have had some questions.

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Angela Bergmann: People that like any if an SEO ever get arrested. Please don’t look at our search history really thinking about who we are as a person.

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Jacob Stoops: I wasn’t on purpose just looking at that site.

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Jacob Stoops: Every day.

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Angela Bergmann: For yeah

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You’re

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Jacob Stoops: So you did mention something when you were kind of talking about how you were

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Jacob Stoops: Coming up in the in the space Twitter. Twitter’s a big thing Twitter still a big thing for for the. So I would say Twitter is probably the best place to connect with other SEOs

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Jacob Stoops: More so than other

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Jacob Stoops: Newer mediums like Instagram or even Tick tock, or whatever. I think Twitter, even I think it’s like Facebook where it’s becoming maybe a little for the, the older generation when used to be the hip.

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Angela Bergmann: It’s, it’s definitely

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Angela Bergmann: Tick tock, but for right

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Jacob Stoops: Now it’s still the best place.

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Angela Bergmann: To

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Jacob Stoops: Communicate with other other SEOs so I do

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Jacob Stoops: find it interesting that you were able to connect and get a job through Twitter.

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Angela Bergmann: That’s pretty

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Angela Bergmann: Awesome. Yep.

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Jacob Stoops: You taught yourself WordPress. What was that like

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Angela Bergmann: No, it really just kind of weird because

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Angela Bergmann: It started with grey matter which was like a CGI based content management system and it just was so much easier than having to FTP into the site every day to like post something and then keeping that running log and and trying to keep all of these separate HTML pages organized

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Angela Bergmann: So it just really kind of morphed into, like, how can I do this easier and then just

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Angela Bergmann: It’s that I think that consumption for knowledge again come into play because it’s like, well, how do I figure this out. Why isn’t this working, what do I have to do to make this work. How do I make it look pretty.

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Angela Bergmann: And it just kind of went from there.

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Angela Bergmann: And because of that, like I got super involved in like the WordPress local WordPress community. I went to WordPress Meetup.

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Angela Bergmann: I hosted a word camp.

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Angela Bergmann: It really like between WordPress and like the digital marketing and social media is really just how I kind of built my career teaching myself these things and getting to be really good at a and

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Angela Bergmann: Being fairly good at sharing that

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Angela Bergmann: Experience and like knowledge with other people to try to explain things to them at a level that they could get it.

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Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s how I’ve gotten some of the jobs that I’ve gotten this because I’ve been able to answer questions and explain it in a way that people can understand

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Angela Bergmann: You had spoken.

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Jacob Stoops: At a lot of word camps all across the Midwest.

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Jacob Stoops: Honestly, like we

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Jacob Stoops: We do our diligence before so

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Angela Bergmann: And you’ve spoken several times at

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Jacob Stoops: Each of these are

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Angela Bergmann: Columbus.

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Jacob Stoops: In Canton end date Ann Arbor.

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Jacob Stoops: Michigan. Yeah.

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Angela Bergmann: Baby to

361
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Jacob Stoops: Buffalo potato.

362
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Angela Bergmann: I guess I were an OSU had we were always, you have to always take pictures on were on U of M campus like in enemy territory.

363
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Angela Bergmann: Very important to do

364
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Jacob Stoops: Um, what

365
00:25:48.360 –> 00:25:49.410
Angela Bergmann: I think that one.

366
00:25:49.410 –> 00:25:52.140
Jacob Stoops: Of the questions I would also ask outside of the

367
00:25:53.250 –> 00:25:59.100
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of questions that come up when you start talking teaching yourself natural

368
00:25:59.430 –> 00:26:00.330
Curiosity.

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00:26:02.010 –> 00:26:10.020
Jacob Stoops: And now this is kind of getting into the public speaking realm but like I feel like these are all very important characteristics and we’d like to

370
00:26:11.010 –> 00:26:19.080
Jacob Stoops: Like to end the episodes, or at least we try sometimes we forget giving advice on like hey if you’re getting into the industry today like

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00:26:19.590 –> 00:26:32.790
Jacob Stoops: What characteristics, should you look to follow or try to emulate in in other really great SEOs, and I think that like us. You have have shown and

372
00:26:33.540 –> 00:26:50.310
Jacob Stoops: I’m saying this because I came up in the same way I was a graphic designer who had no other choice but to teach myself web design, who then fell into SEO WordPress was a huge part of of my experience in in web design, but like

373
00:26:51.780 –> 00:26:55.530
Jacob Stoops: I think having that natural curiosity and I do see some people that

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00:26:55.560 –> 00:26:56.790
Angela Bergmann: Come into the industry and

375
00:26:56.790 –> 00:26:58.140
Angela Bergmann: Like there’s

376
00:26:58.680 –> 00:27:05.610
Jacob Stoops: Not always the hunger there to want to dive into some of these complex problems and there’s not always the

377
00:27:06.960 –> 00:27:11.550
Jacob Stoops: The real desire to teach yourself one of the skills.

378
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Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

379
00:27:14.280 –> 00:27:15.570
Jacob Stoops: How important do you feel

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00:27:15.570 –> 00:27:19.950
Jacob Stoops: Like that part of it is when you’re kind of coming up.

381
00:27:21.900 –> 00:27:29.160
Angela Bergmann: I think it’s critical. I think that desire to learn everything and teach yourself everything you possibly can, is

382
00:27:30.000 –> 00:27:48.960
Angela Bergmann: The foundation of being a really good SEO because things are going to change. Google can make a change, tomorrow that rocks all of our world and we have to learn it right now. So if you’re not able to like pivot quickly and learn things kind of on the fly, you’re already at a doctrine.

383
00:27:50.310 –> 00:27:50.610
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

384
00:27:52.080 –> 00:27:57.150
Jeff Louella: No matter what I asked anyone who I’ve ever talked to you, like, what did you go to school for it.

385
00:27:57.810 –> 00:27:59.100
Jeff Louella: It’s never SEO right

386
00:27:59.100 –> 00:27:59.730
Angela Bergmann: So it’s

387
00:28:00.930 –> 00:28:03.270
Jeff Louella: So I’ve worked with people who were

388
00:28:04.320 –> 00:28:07.950
Jeff Louella: Wanted to be a gym teacher, all the way to people like

389
00:28:08.370 –> 00:28:10.200
Jeff Louella: Journalism is a big one.

390
00:28:10.650 –> 00:28:11.160
Jeff Louella: And then

391
00:28:11.670 –> 00:28:12.450
Angela Bergmann: The big one.

392
00:28:12.570 –> 00:28:13.860
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and journalism is

393
00:28:14.490 –> 00:28:17.970
Jeff Louella: Is great. I mean, the technical side is where they need to have the curiosity, but

394
00:28:18.600 –> 00:28:21.480
Jeff Louella: I’m probably the opposite where it’s like on the content side, I probably need

395
00:28:21.540 –> 00:28:25.140
Jeff Louella: A little more curiosity on wordplay and things like that because

396
00:28:26.370 –> 00:28:29.100
Jeff Louella: I’m coming from a technical background but yeah it’s it’s

397
00:28:29.550 –> 00:28:31.170
Jeff Louella: Having the curiosity in general.

398
00:28:31.170 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: And learning how to, you know, I always tell someone who’s new like build a WordPress site.

399
00:28:37.410 –> 00:28:38.730
Angela Bergmann: It’s just one because it’s, yeah.

400
00:28:38.790 –> 00:28:40.230
Angela Bergmann: There’s so much information out.

401
00:28:40.230 –> 00:28:45.210
Jeff Louella: There that you can’t, like, if I say build a craft CMS site right now or

402
00:28:45.240 –> 00:28:47.640
Jeff Louella: Go do with expression engine or go do

403
00:28:47.850 –> 00:28:49.140
Angela Bergmann: So high

404
00:28:49.260 –> 00:28:52.650
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we will type or, you know, I

405
00:28:53.280 –> 00:28:56.520
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those where it’s like there might not be as much out there WordPress, there’s this

406
00:28:56.610 –> 00:28:58.920
Angela Bergmann: Gigantic community. Yeah, that’s

407
00:28:59.130 –> 00:28:59.550
Angela Bergmann: And don’t

408
00:28:59.580 –> 00:29:04.320
Jeff Louella: Just go to WordPress com and pay you know or get a free site there like go

409
00:29:04.530 –> 00:29:08.700
Angela Bergmann: Now, Donald word download it and

410
00:29:13.080 –> 00:29:13.710
Angela Bergmann: All which is

411
00:29:13.800 –> 00:29:16.470
Jeff Louella: Which is fine for me now because I installed it but

412
00:29:17.010 –> 00:29:23.760
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like I use the One Button installed, but that’s because I installed thousands of patients on it.

413
00:29:24.810 –> 00:29:25.530
Angela Bergmann: So easy.

414
00:29:26.250 –> 00:29:28.410
Angela Bergmann: But at the same time, it’s like knowing like

415
00:29:28.470 –> 00:29:34.410
Jeff Louella: Okay, I got my config file up to what does the config file, it’s like okay, now it’s just like

416
00:29:34.440 –> 00:29:34.860
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I

417
00:29:35.100 –> 00:29:36.240
Jeff Louella: Get to my sequel database.

418
00:29:36.270 –> 00:29:37.680
Jeff Louella: What is that my sequel database.

419
00:29:37.680 –> 00:29:38.490
Jeff Louella: You know, and it’s just

420
00:29:39.750 –> 00:29:46.020
Angela Bergmann: That’s the kind of stuff, too, that when you when you’re learning it like so. I work for very large corporation.

421
00:29:47.370 –> 00:29:57.090
Angela Bergmann: I wanted access administrative level access on my laptop and they’re like why. And I was like, cuz I want to update my host file. And they were like, oh,

422
00:29:57.660 –> 00:30:09.180
Angela Bergmann: You know what, I’m like, yeah, I know what that is. I need to update it and like just having that knowledge has helped me be able to get access to the things that I need, because I know what it

423
00:30:10.350 –> 00:30:12.210
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s great. Yeah.

424
00:30:12.840 –> 00:30:14.490
Jeff Louella: So I have a little confession that I’ve

425
00:30:14.700 –> 00:30:15.750
Jeff Louella: Signed up for

426
00:30:15.900 –> 00:30:18.300
Angela Bergmann: Probably the last five years to go to WordPress.

427
00:30:18.630 –> 00:30:19.350
Jeff Louella: Or work camp.

428
00:30:19.890 –> 00:30:21.090
Jeff Louella: Paid and I never went

429
00:30:24.990 –> 00:30:27.330
Jeff Louella: I totally support it. I love the idea of it.

430
00:30:27.690 –> 00:30:32.040
Jeff Louella: I moved from Philadelphia to Atlanta. About three years ago, but at least

431
00:30:32.250 –> 00:30:34.230
Jeff Louella: Three years in Philadelphia. I paid and it’s

432
00:30:34.230 –> 00:30:35.790
Jeff Louella: Always sits on a weekend.

433
00:30:36.240 –> 00:30:37.200
Angela Bergmann: Which yeah

434
00:30:37.260 –> 00:30:38.520
Jeff Louella: Usually is good because

435
00:30:39.240 –> 00:30:41.070
Jeff Louella: I can go on a weekend. Like, it seems great

436
00:30:41.520 –> 00:30:49.680
Jeff Louella: But that’s usually family time and that’s where it goes. Like if you give me the Tuesday I feel like I’m working late today or it’s a substitute work for the conference.

437
00:30:50.070 –> 00:30:51.960
Angela Bergmann: But I think I paid for it every year and I

438
00:30:51.960 –> 00:31:02.700
Jeff Louella: Send in our Atlanta office now that I’m company on that every year. I said word camps coming sign up here and I always pay by my ticket because I support it. And then I usually never get

439
00:31:02.970 –> 00:31:04.290
Jeff Louella: Go, so I am

440
00:31:04.410 –> 00:31:05.610
Jeff Louella: Oh, you have

441
00:31:05.610 –> 00:31:06.090
Angela Bergmann: To go

442
00:31:06.120 –> 00:31:06.630
Angela Bergmann: I need

443
00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:07.200
Jeff Louella: I will go

444
00:31:09.120 –> 00:31:18.780
Angela Bergmann: I tell people all the time. I’m like, honestly, especially from the tech like SEO side like we’re cancer amazing i I’ve met some of the best people I know through that.

445
00:31:19.980 –> 00:31:30.660
Angela Bergmann: Actually when I was interviewing for this job. I was interviewing with john parka who’s the director of SEO still he’s on actually on our, on our enterprise side now.

446
00:31:31.140 –> 00:31:33.810
Angela Bergmann: But he helped start one of the word camps in Florida.

447
00:31:34.290 –> 00:31:45.120
Angela Bergmann: And he saw on my resume that I was on the committee for word camp North Canton, and then I was the chair for word camp Kent and word camp Northeast Ohio and then I spoke at all these word camp.

448
00:31:45.450 –> 00:31:50.160
Angela Bergmann: So that was like part of my interview process was talking about what I do work camp.

449
00:31:51.120 –> 00:31:59.250
Angela Bergmann: But like, I’ve met some of my best friends at this point through the word WordPress community. And that’s why, like I go to their camps and I talked and

450
00:31:59.700 –> 00:32:10.500
Angela Bergmann: I just made some wonderful connections. That’s great. I just looked it out, April 18 and 19th word camp Atlanta. I will be there. Mm hmm. And I know one of their organizers.

451
00:32:14.910 –> 00:32:25.110
Angela Bergmann: Yes, they’re always looking for speakers, they always especially on. I mean, just saying. Like I always talk nowadays about SEO or accessibility at them and

452
00:32:26.490 –> 00:32:32.340
Angela Bergmann: They’re highly attended people have wonderful question. They’re super engaged. I love it. That’s awesome.

453
00:32:33.780 –> 00:32:36.690
Jacob Stoops: Just how dare you prioritize your family.

454
00:32:37.260 –> 00:32:38.400
Angela Bergmann: Over WordPress and

455
00:32:40.110 –> 00:32:42.060
Jeff Louella: Ryan times I’ve just hung over from Friday.

456
00:32:42.060 –> 00:32:42.600
Jeff Louella: Night now.

457
00:32:48.300 –> 00:32:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Angela, what do you do it word camp.

458
00:32:52.200 –> 00:32:54.330
Angela Bergmann: So what do I do a word chill. Yeah.

459
00:32:55.140 –> 00:32:57.660
Jacob Stoops: You said that you said that just two seconds ago.

460
00:32:57.750 –> 00:33:00.030
Jacob Stoops: And I was like I was just gonna say, Well, what do you do

461
00:33:00.780 –> 00:33:12.960
Angela Bergmann: So now I said so now i don’t i just attend. Now, or I speak of them. Previously I was actually on the committee that actually helped around them, because they are nonprofit.

462
00:33:13.560 –> 00:33:18.480
Angela Bergmann: That’s how the tickets are so cheap everybody donate their time to help run the camp.

463
00:33:19.380 –> 00:33:34.350
Angela Bergmann: And you know, I started out just doing social media for it. So I was the one posting on social media, creating the website. And then I was the one. And I think the whole thing and getting sponsors and running it day of

464
00:33:36.540 –> 00:33:43.980
Angela Bergmann: Compared to some conferences word camps are super laid back jeans and a t shirt hang out with your friends.

465
00:33:44.550 –> 00:33:57.780
Angela Bergmann: If you’re in one of the sessions and it’s not really vibe in with you. You’re welcome to like get up and leave like it. It’s just a really like friendly open atmosphere. So it’s not it’s not too high pressure

466
00:33:59.100 –> 00:34:09.180
Angela Bergmann: But now. Uh, yeah, I just speak at the Now typically about SEO typically beginners level SEO so small businesses people that are just getting into marketing.

467
00:34:10.080 –> 00:34:23.820
Angela Bergmann: New College graduate, that kind of stuff. Just like you don’t don’t listen to the snake oil salesman that are going to be like, we’ll get you on number one. Don’t buy a link. Here’s the basic things you can do.

468
00:34:25.350 –> 00:34:30.300
Angela Bergmann: In the run up to getting an agency to help you. You just install used

469
00:34:32.370 –> 00:34:42.510
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, like that’s one of the things that I actually go over as I’m like yeah install Yost ignore the green light. Um, you know, just write good content answer people’s questions.

470
00:34:44.460 –> 00:34:48.180
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s really what you need to do the plugins, not just going to

471
00:34:48.180 –> 00:34:49.650
Jacob Stoops: Magically, do the SEO.

472
00:34:49.980 –> 00:34:51.810
Angela Bergmann: Despite what some people think, yeah.

473
00:34:52.260 –> 00:34:54.150
Jacob Stoops: That’s exactly, exactly.

474
00:34:54.240 –> 00:34:57.600
Angela Bergmann: autopilot which is a and worms.

475
00:34:59.850 –> 00:35:01.350
Angela Bergmann: The public speaking angle.

476
00:35:02.310 –> 00:35:06.930
Jacob Stoops: There are a lot of folks in our industry are either a doing it.

477
00:35:07.080 –> 00:35:07.800
Jacob Stoops: Or be

478
00:35:08.130 –> 00:35:20.250
Jacob Stoops: Thinking about doing it. What advice for those people who are thinking about doing it because you have done it so much. Would you give and kind of what types of things did you go through

479
00:35:22.230 –> 00:35:25.110
Jacob Stoops: before you got into it, or as you were early on in it.

480
00:35:27.360 –> 00:35:41.670
Angela Bergmann: So the number one thing I learned I actually learned from my husband. Um, he got finally got it through my head that just because something seems really easy for me doesn’t mean everybody else knows how to do it.

481
00:35:43.470 –> 00:35:54.360
Angela Bergmann: Because I’ve been doing this for so long. I don’t realize the level of things that I know and what seems really like basic common knowledge to me isn’t so common.

482
00:35:56.280 –> 00:36:08.250
Angela Bergmann: So even if it seems like something simple, there’s somebody out there that needs to know about it and wants to learn about it. And if it’s something you feel really confident about and you know a lot about pitch to talk about it.

483
00:36:10.200 –> 00:36:11.490
Angela Bergmann: Especially if you’re a woman.

484
00:36:14.340 –> 00:36:17.490
Jeff Louella: As an issue where it’s I feel that there’s so many

485
00:36:17.640 –> 00:36:18.750
Angela Bergmann: SEO conferences.

486
00:36:19.170 –> 00:36:21.060
Jeff Louella: Is somebody SEO blogs from the

487
00:36:21.060 –> 00:36:31.740
Jeff Louella: Sky News things that it’s I do have that issue where it’s like, oh, I talked about this, but like there’s a million people talking about it right now. And it’s like, what is is looking at what that

488
00:36:31.740 –> 00:36:33.000
Jeff Louella: Next Big Thing is out there.

489
00:36:33.000 –> 00:36:34.260
Jeff Louella: But in a way,

490
00:36:34.560 –> 00:36:36.690
Jeff Louella: The basics are still not like

491
00:36:36.990 –> 00:36:39.600
Jeff Louella: I’ve learned this my clients like some my basic like

492
00:36:40.080 –> 00:36:42.540
Jeff Louella: The basics are not being followed and

493
00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:44.940
Jeff Louella: You know, and internal education with

494
00:36:45.240 –> 00:36:46.770
Jeff Louella: My, my clients is where I

495
00:36:47.130 –> 00:36:48.270
Angela Bergmann: Love the focus on that.

496
00:36:49.140 –> 00:36:57.270
Jeff Louella: Though I sometimes feel like I’ve been doing this for a long time. I should be like teaching them all about like how to use machine learning to do better SEO.

497
00:36:57.990 –> 00:37:00.270
Jeff Louella: Not teaching you that like listen that right over.

498
00:37:00.270 –> 00:37:07.950
Jeff Louella: 65 characters on the title or or let’s add a title to our page because you know we forgot to do that, but it’s it’s

499
00:37:08.010 –> 00:37:20.850
Angela Bergmann: And I think that’s the people forget like everybody still needs a reminder on the basics and like how the how the why the basics are still relevant. They feel like it’s a big thing. Yeah, anyway.

500
00:37:22.140 –> 00:37:27.510
Jeff Louella: This is a little bit basics and a little bit above right there is like that’s 90% of what we need to know and everything else is

501
00:37:27.510 –> 00:37:28.740
Angela Bergmann: sugar on top of it. So,

502
00:37:29.340 –> 00:37:30.060
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s

503
00:37:30.780 –> 00:37:33.810
Jacob Stoops: It’s a pretty rare situation. I’ve been an agency.

504
00:37:33.810 –> 00:37:50.280
Jacob Stoops: World for 90% of my career and there I can count probably on one hand, the amount of clients where their SEO strategy was so well developed that we only ever focused on really advanced stuff.

505
00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.890
Angela Bergmann: For the most part, when people

506
00:37:53.040 –> 00:37:58.980
Jacob Stoops: Have come to us. They’ve got like very basic, very fundamental problems very

507
00:37:59.340 –> 00:38:01.080
Jacob Stoops: Fundamental technical problems.

508
00:38:01.110 –> 00:38:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Or because they haven’t really ever thought of SEO or

509
00:38:04.650 –> 00:38:06.180
Jacob Stoops: Done keyword research, they don’t

510
00:38:06.180 –> 00:38:22.230
Jacob Stoops: Understand what their consumers are searching for where they should be showing up. So they had a lot of content gaps and we spend a lot of time in because SEO takes a long time because it takes a long time for implementation to occur. A lot of in most cases.

511
00:38:23.310 –> 00:38:25.890
Jacob Stoops: It can take years to get some of the

512
00:38:26.490 –> 00:38:27.210
Angela Bergmann: Stuff right

513
00:38:27.270 –> 00:38:35.310
Jacob Stoops: In finally in place, but the the weird juxtaposition in agency world is you don’t have years. So sometimes you’re

514
00:38:35.400 –> 00:38:37.800
Jacob Stoops: You’re really stuck between a rock and

515
00:38:38.280 –> 00:38:43.260
Jacob Stoops: A hard place. But yeah, I mean, most people come to us with basic, basic

516
00:38:44.520 –> 00:38:46.650
Jacob Stoops: basic needs, and we we

517
00:38:47.670 –> 00:38:57.090
Jacob Stoops: Are having to serve those needs, but then the flip side is on the public speaking in the conference side like I think sometimes I fall into the

518
00:38:58.290 –> 00:39:00.960
Jacob Stoops: The way of thinking like Jeff where it’s like

519
00:39:02.400 –> 00:39:17.850
Jacob Stoops: Everybody like nobody everybody I assume everybody who would be attending an SEO or WordPress conference would already know the basics. So like I i don’t pitch more because I’m like, well, what can I tell these people that they don’t already know.

520
00:39:18.150 –> 00:39:19.410
Jacob Stoops: And sometimes that’s the wrong way to

521
00:39:19.410 –> 00:39:20.460
Angela Bergmann: Think about it for sure.

522
00:39:20.910 –> 00:39:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I totally realized that’s the probably the the wrong.

523
00:39:24.210 –> 00:39:25.530
Angela Bergmann: Approach to take because

524
00:39:25.560 –> 00:39:33.930
Jacob Stoops: For every person in there that does know some of the basic stuff. There’s probably a new person in there that’s never heard any of it before so

525
00:39:34.470 –> 00:39:44.520
Angela Bergmann: Yeah. And you’ll notice that like even the SEO conferences, they’ll have a talk here and there. That’s like basically rehashing the basics and how and why it’s still relevant to today.

526
00:39:45.300 –> 00:39:46.800
Jacob Stoops: Did you ever have any like

527
00:39:46.800 –> 00:39:51.120
Jacob Stoops: Fears of getting up on stage and talking in front of a lot of people

528
00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:16.380
Angela Bergmann: Like I get. I get that nervousness of, like, what if I can’t answer. Somebody question. Um, but I am super outgoing and kinda like in your face. One of those types of people. So like getting up in front of a group was never a fear for me. You’re, you’re one of the lucky ones like

529
00:40:18.360 –> 00:40:18.930
Jacob Stoops: I have

530
00:40:19.350 –> 00:40:20.580
Jacob Stoops: A bit of a public

531
00:40:20.580 –> 00:40:39.330
Jacob Stoops: Speaking fear which I usually quickly get over but like I have a weird thing that happens to me when I, when I talk in public in most predominantly so I’ve, I don’t want to call myself a singer, but I’ve saying in public. Several times for like benefits and whatnot and

532
00:40:40.200 –> 00:40:41.670
Jacob Stoops: I have this thing, right.

533
00:40:41.670 –> 00:40:45.510
Jacob Stoops: Before I’m about to go on stage and

534
00:40:46.260 –> 00:40:47.250
Angela Bergmann: A couple of times.

535
00:40:47.280 –> 00:40:49.800
Jacob Stoops: Literally seconds before the words are supposed to come out of my

536
00:40:49.800 –> 00:40:50.970
Angela Bergmann: Mouth where

537
00:40:51.030 –> 00:40:52.290
Angela Bergmann: everything just goes blank.

538
00:40:52.380 –> 00:40:55.500
Jacob Stoops: And I forget all the words and literally

539
00:40:55.800 –> 00:40:57.180
Angela Bergmann: The words to me.

540
00:40:57.240 –> 00:40:59.070
Jacob Stoops: Until the second my mouth opens

541
00:40:59.250 –> 00:41:05.910
Jacob Stoops: And like you have no idea the amount of anxiety and stress and fear that that causes could

542
00:41:06.240 –> 00:41:08.190
Jacob Stoops: Could you imagine like being

543
00:41:08.220 –> 00:41:09.090
Angela Bergmann: Like the

544
00:41:09.150 –> 00:41:10.890
Jacob Stoops: Music is not stopping

545
00:41:12.180 –> 00:41:12.630
Jacob Stoops: You’re

546
00:41:12.660 –> 00:41:19.410
Jacob Stoops: Missing your cue because you forgot the what that’s like. That’s a real thing and like there have been times I feel like where I’ve been.

547
00:41:19.830 –> 00:41:21.000
Angela Bergmann: Getting in front of people.

548
00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:24.810
Jacob Stoops: That happens to me and and the light bulb just goes out.

549
00:41:25.170 –> 00:41:25.680
And

550
00:41:26.790 –> 00:41:30.690
Jacob Stoops: There’s a, there’s a certain amount of silence, where, like, it’s okay. But then like

551
00:41:30.900 –> 00:41:31.980
Angela Bergmann: As you’re trying to get

552
00:41:32.880 –> 00:41:34.920
Jacob Stoops: Your head and nobody knows that this is happening.

553
00:41:34.920 –> 00:41:36.300
Jacob Stoops: There’s a certain amount of silence.

554
00:41:36.300 –> 00:41:37.500
Angela Bergmann: That just awkward.

555
00:41:38.160 –> 00:41:50.190
Jacob Stoops: And like the lock on the more awkward. It gets and you’re inside like instead of thinking, what was I supposed to be singing. What was I supposed to be saying you’re thinking now, all these people are seeing me freak out.

556
00:41:50.820 –> 00:41:51.750
Say something.

557
00:41:54.690 –> 00:41:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Doing what it should be doing so.

558
00:41:56.100 –> 00:42:00.690
Jacob Stoops: Like, that’s my personal public public speaking fear.

559
00:42:01.110 –> 00:42:01.620
Angela Bergmann: Oh,

560
00:42:01.860 –> 00:42:02.790
Jacob Stoops: That’s a very real.

561
00:42:02.880 –> 00:42:04.650
Jacob Stoops: Thing I know other people have that

562
00:42:06.780 –> 00:42:19.290
Angela Bergmann: Here’s, here’s how I have that not happen and this always boggles people’s mind so you can go to like wordpress.tv and you can see like some of the recorded where Tim says Boca um

563
00:42:20.400 –> 00:42:36.480
Angela Bergmann: I knew a lot of people like put together presentations and they have like cards and they like no exact. I have no idea what I’m going to say when I get up there. Wow. I just have a deck. That’s like cuse me to talk about things and I just go

564
00:42:38.190 –> 00:42:38.820
Angela Bergmann: Oh, man.

565
00:42:39.030 –> 00:42:40.350
Jacob Stoops: You’re like a Jasmine.

566
00:42:43.590 –> 00:42:44.250
Every time

567
00:42:45.690 –> 00:42:51.390
Angela Bergmann: Because like I like to read the especially when I’m at work camps, because there. I know that a lot of these people are very new.

568
00:42:51.870 –> 00:43:05.070
Angela Bergmann: I can kind of read the room and see what kind of questions. I’m getting asked throughout the presentation and it might shift, what I’m going to say to it’s always slightly different but I always kind of end up with the same takeaways.

569
00:43:06.000 –> 00:43:10.320
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, I just get up there and talk. Remember, smooth again gigantic

570
00:43:10.470 –> 00:43:11.880
Jeff Louella: You know 500 person.

571
00:43:12.300 –> 00:43:12.720
Angela Bergmann: But

572
00:43:13.500 –> 00:43:18.630
Jeff Louella: I’ve done tons of smaller meetups like 3040 people in there.

573
00:43:18.630 –> 00:43:19.170
And

574
00:43:20.220 –> 00:43:25.830
Jeff Louella: Get I definitely like to feel out the room. I know kind of where I’m going with everything. But one question.

575
00:43:26.070 –> 00:43:27.000
Angela Bergmann: If I had a script.

576
00:43:27.060 –> 00:43:29.250
Jeff Louella: That I was going off of the one question through that script.

577
00:43:29.250 –> 00:43:32.820
Jeff Louella: Off, then I’d be like trying to rewind like Where was I add

578
00:43:34.560 –> 00:43:35.610
Angela Bergmann: I would think.

579
00:43:35.850 –> 00:43:37.140
Jeff Louella: I have been told, you know,

580
00:43:37.170 –> 00:43:40.770
Jeff Louella: We used to have like presentation training at different companies and

581
00:43:41.400 –> 00:43:43.200
Jeff Louella: Like they’re like stand in front of a mirror and

582
00:43:43.200 –> 00:43:44.730
Jeff Louella: Practice what you’re going to say.

583
00:43:45.210 –> 00:43:47.610
Jeff Louella: And I get it, if I’m doing a

584
00:43:47.610 –> 00:43:49.110
Angela Bergmann: keynote speech media or

585
00:43:49.110 –> 00:43:50.100
Jeff Louella: If I’m doing like

586
00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:52.680
Jeff Louella: Something. Yeah, I’d like to be very

587
00:43:54.090 –> 00:43:59.010
Jeff Louella: You know, given take with the audience, right. So it’s, again, I have my slides. We know we got an hour.

588
00:44:00.510 –> 00:44:03.600
Jeff Louella: There’s been many times where I’m on slide 16 we have 10 minutes left.

589
00:44:03.630 –> 00:44:04.560
Angela Bergmann: Right, and so it’s like

590
00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:06.870
Jeff Louella: Well, these things work. But if the audience gets what they want.

591
00:44:06.870 –> 00:44:17.850
Jeff Louella: Out of it like I I’m not there to make like my final slides, not like a mic drop. It’s like at that time. It’s like my my job would be like if you want more information you can talk. Let’s talk right here.

592
00:44:18.180 –> 00:44:19.440
Angela Bergmann: Compared to be after

593
00:44:23.550 –> 00:44:41.400
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been in I’ve been in the situations because I do a lot of advocacy for nonprofit outside of just work where like those presentations have to be more structured, but even those I leave that wiggle room because I think that’s how it helps me get over that fear.

594
00:44:43.170 –> 00:44:44.580
Jacob Stoops: If you guys ever seen the movie old

595
00:44:44.580 –> 00:44:45.030
School

596
00:44:46.380 –> 00:44:46.950
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

597
00:44:47.130 –> 00:44:51.090
Angela Bergmann: No, you have Jeff and I have a question for you, Angela, but

598
00:44:52.470 –> 00:44:53.760
Angela Bergmann: I guess I should have phrased it the other

599
00:44:54.120 –> 00:44:54.990
Angela Bergmann: Way. Anyway, so

600
00:44:55.620 –> 00:44:56.310
Jacob Stoops: For those of you

601
00:44:56.790 –> 00:45:11.370
Jacob Stoops: Folks, they haven’t seen the movie. First off, it’s funny movie so you should go see it it’s it’s old older it’s from my generation, I guess. But I guess, which makes it a little old um there’s a scene in the movie.

602
00:45:11.400 –> 00:45:13.500
Jacob Stoops: Where Will Ferrell’s character.

603
00:45:13.950 –> 00:45:23.010
Jacob Stoops: Goes up for like a debate and they’re essentially debating as part of this competition to keep the charter for their fraternity.

604
00:45:23.970 –> 00:45:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Loose loose fraternity going so that they can keep their debauchery of a fraternity open and so they’re having this debate and it’s it’s this this massive thing with a moderator.

605
00:45:37.350 –> 00:45:46.530
Jacob Stoops: And the school president who does not want this fraternity to exist, kind of tries to rig it and he brings in famed political commentator James Carville

606
00:45:47.490 –> 00:45:54.570
Jacob Stoops: And then they asked this really, really hard question and James Carville is about to answer and Will Ferrell goes Excuse me.

607
00:45:54.990 –> 00:46:06.240
Jacob Stoops: I think I could take that one. James Carville is like have added hos and Will Ferrell its character proceeds to perfectly and succinctly answer the question.

608
00:46:06.840 –> 00:46:17.190
Jacob Stoops: And then immediately after everybody’s patting him on the back, and he just kind of like wakes up and goes anybody’s like what the, what the heck just happened I blacked out

609
00:46:18.660 –> 00:46:22.200
Jacob Stoops: And for me, when I’m public speaking. Sometimes

610
00:46:22.200 –> 00:46:22.950
Angela Bergmann: And or

611
00:46:23.010 –> 00:46:24.450
Angela Bergmann: Sometimes when I’m like

612
00:46:24.750 –> 00:46:32.460
Jacob Stoops: When I have material that I know and I’m very, very comfortable with. I feel like there have been times for me where that kind of happens

613
00:46:33.150 –> 00:46:33.510
Jacob Stoops: Where I’m

614
00:46:34.080 –> 00:46:35.280
Jacob Stoops: going with the flow.

615
00:46:35.340 –> 00:46:44.820
Jacob Stoops: And it’s almost like you can do it on autopilot. And I, it makes me sometimes, when that has happened to me think of that scene in that movie.

616
00:46:45.960 –> 00:46:59.580
Jacob Stoops: And in that’s in. That’s the version of me that is over my over my stress about public speaking and very comfortable with doing it and very much. Josh, I think with the with the audience. And I would say like

617
00:47:00.960 –> 00:47:15.150
Jacob Stoops: I’ve, I feel like I i personally come a long way, but for me it’s even still awkward because there is there is that element of it. So there are people that are just so not comfortable with it and I’m definitely one of those

618
00:47:15.570 –> 00:47:17.220
Jacob Stoops: People even still, even

619
00:47:17.250 –> 00:47:18.930
Angela Bergmann: My deep into my career.

620
00:47:20.490 –> 00:47:23.400
Jacob Stoops: Anyways, Jeff. What’s in the news.

621
00:47:25.020 –> 00:47:31.380
Jeff Louella: So the biggest news this week was Wall Street Journal released an article out that

622
00:47:32.580 –> 00:47:37.020
Jeff Louella: was titled How Google interferes with its search algorithms and changes your results.

623
00:47:37.770 –> 00:47:40.170
Angela Bergmann: And as a typical

624
00:47:40.170 –> 00:47:42.660
Jeff Louella: Fashion SEOs went nuts.

625
00:47:44.310 –> 00:47:55.590
Jeff Louella: And I would say semi right so um I guess like Wall Street Journal, you know, not necessarily necessarily known as like degree to source for SEO material.

626
00:47:56.850 –> 00:47:57.510
Jeff Louella: But they sent a

627
00:47:57.840 –> 00:48:03.630
Jeff Louella: Material. Yeah, that’s where I go first. You know, for my SEO stuff, but I always get their paywall block.

628
00:48:03.930 –> 00:48:06.360
Jeff Louella: So I will admit that I read.

629
00:48:07.380 –> 00:48:08.190
Jeff Louella: one paragraph.

630
00:48:08.280 –> 00:48:08.910
Jeff Louella: And then

631
00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:10.650
Jeff Louella: Boots because I did not pay for the

632
00:48:10.650 –> 00:48:11.280
Angela Bergmann: Wall Street Journal

633
00:48:11.730 –> 00:48:13.440
Jeff Louella: And I really think if

634
00:48:13.680 –> 00:48:15.600
Angela Bergmann: SEOs didn’t go crazy that article.

635
00:48:15.630 –> 00:48:17.100
Angela Bergmann: Know what even read it but

636
00:48:18.480 –> 00:48:20.430
Jeff Louella: Except, like, you know, businessman.

637
00:48:22.050 –> 00:48:27.450
Jeff Louella: But in general, you know, it’s like one of the big things that they interviewed over 100 different people for this. They said,

638
00:48:27.840 –> 00:48:37.050
Jeff Louella: And it’s interesting because I guess all who you interview and the way I look at it and how they probably got their information right it’s like I interviewed 100 SEOs okay I can

639
00:48:37.800 –> 00:48:45.660
Jeff Louella: I can interview a whole bunch of really great SEOs and then there’s all these link builders and spammers I can interview also. So, of course, and they conspiracy

640
00:48:45.660 –> 00:48:47.580
Angela Bergmann: Theories right so if

641
00:48:47.760 –> 00:48:49.440
Jeff Louella: I’m reading some of these, and I’m going

642
00:48:49.650 –> 00:48:51.060
Jeff Louella: Okay, that’s a conspiracy theory.

643
00:48:51.060 –> 00:48:52.590
Angela Bergmann: But the Wall Street Journal didn’t really do their

644
00:48:52.590 –> 00:48:53.490
Investigative

645
00:48:55.590 –> 00:48:57.240
Angela Bergmann: Actually access to that if they did.

646
00:48:57.300 –> 00:48:59.250
Jeff Louella: Like I know Glenn gave was misquoted on

647
00:48:59.250 –> 00:48:59.760
Jeff Louella: His

648
00:49:00.690 –> 00:49:02.640
Jeff Louella: But some of the things they were kind of saying is

649
00:49:03.330 –> 00:49:07.740
Jeff Louella: You know, Google makes algorithm changes the benefit and favorite big business.

650
00:49:08.730 –> 00:49:15.750
Jeff Louella: So that’s something people have been saying for a long time and but if you kind of understand algorithms, you look at it and saying like

651
00:49:16.590 –> 00:49:27.360
Jeff Louella: Do I want to order something from Amazon com or do I want to order something from the smallest like one guy who had one website, who has one product and gets

652
00:49:27.780 –> 00:49:28.920
Angela Bergmann: Totally trustworthy.

653
00:49:29.010 –> 00:49:29.430
Angela Bergmann: It’s totally

654
00:49:29.490 –> 00:49:31.740
Jeff Louella: Right, so there is a trust factor to this.

655
00:49:32.370 –> 00:49:34.470
Angela Bergmann: To me it wasn’t news, but I guess there’s some people

656
00:49:35.610 –> 00:49:39.930
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, there’s a trust factor and SEO. Yeah.

657
00:49:40.500 –> 00:49:44.460
Angela Bergmann: It’s part of the Shakespeare return eat what the

658
00:49:45.420 –> 00:49:47.940
Jeff Louella: Yeah. And if you read any of the guidelines, it seems

659
00:49:47.940 –> 00:49:50.460
Jeff Louella: Like, that’s part of it, right, then go for people who

660
00:49:50.550 –> 00:49:55.080
Angela Bergmann: Have like expertise and authority and trust so

661
00:49:56.520 –> 00:49:58.050
Jeff Louella: Another I guess was you

662
00:49:58.770 –> 00:50:01.590
Jacob Stoops: Know, we’re not moving past this yet, Jeff.

663
00:50:07.380 –> 00:50:08.010
Jacob Stoops: Seinfeld.

664
00:50:10.230 –> 00:50:15.750
Jacob Stoops: So Wall Street Journal. So they were they wrote an article about SEO. Okay.

665
00:50:16.980 –> 00:50:20.550
Jacob Stoops: They’re not an authority on SEO. So like on one side.

666
00:50:21.570 –> 00:50:31.200
Jacob Stoops: I’m thinking as a person who would have been interviewed well damn it would have been really cool to be approached by the Wall Street Journal to like

667
00:50:31.590 –> 00:50:32.040
Angela Bergmann: Have

668
00:50:33.000 –> 00:50:47.550
Jacob Stoops: What my thoughts but like the the cynic in me in in the person in me, who pays attention to things outside of the scope of SEO would think, well,

669
00:50:48.150 –> 00:50:59.550
Jacob Stoops: The Wall Street Journal is a media outlet and the reporter is probably being given a directive by their superiors and their leadership within the company.

670
00:51:00.030 –> 00:51:13.950
Jacob Stoops: That whatever they report it has to take a certain slant. So when things came out as being misquoted and being just probably factually wrong like

671
00:51:15.150 –> 00:51:20.820
Jacob Stoops: Given the environment today and I don’t want to, like, I want to bring in politics, but

672
00:51:20.850 –> 00:51:23.100
Angela Bergmann: Given the political environment that we

673
00:51:23.130 –> 00:51:24.420
Jacob Stoops: All live in today.

674
00:51:24.720 –> 00:51:29.160
Jacob Stoops: Where media outlets are slanted in one way or another with

675
00:51:29.640 –> 00:51:30.510
Angela Bergmann: Agendas

676
00:51:30.960 –> 00:51:40.020
Jacob Stoops: Should it have surprised. Anybody who was interviewed that they were misquoted and that this reporter found a way to push their agenda.

677
00:51:41.310 –> 00:51:51.840
Jacob Stoops: Pretty much, despite the evidence given by the people who were being quoted like. Does that surprise you guys that they took those quotes and slanted them the way that they wanted

678
00:51:53.850 –> 00:52:03.900
Angela Bergmann: I don’t know. So I’ve been. I’ve been interviewed for a couple of different media publications. I’ve been in USA Today. And I’ve been in Slate both

679
00:52:04.980 –> 00:52:15.450
Angela Bergmann: Her infertility related things and they both stories they they were really accurate for how they quoted me so I would probably be surprised, personally.

680
00:52:16.680 –> 00:52:25.560
Angela Bergmann: I think it would have more to do with finding out. So when I’m typically approached for something like that I typically want to know, like what’s the slant like what’s the endgame here.

681
00:52:26.040 –> 00:52:35.550
Angela Bergmann: Like what are, what is this what is the purpose because there is a purpose for the article. It’s being ready to find out what that is and see if it’s going to be in line with what you’re going to say.

682
00:52:37.440 –> 00:52:41.280
Jeff Louella: Yeah, we don’t want to have all this effort and time they say

683
00:52:42.330 –> 00:52:46.680
Jeff Louella: Oh, Google’s just, you know, not doing bad things, right, like the whole idea is you want to

684
00:52:46.980 –> 00:52:48.990
Jeff Louella: kind of try to expose them on it and

685
00:52:49.950 –> 00:53:01.530
Jeff Louella: It is I, I would be shocked a little bit right because out of all the news out there like if I was on Gawker, or Buzzfeed. Like, I expect them to maybe get things wrong. I don’t know why. Maybe, yeah.

686
00:53:01.590 –> 00:53:02.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s less

687
00:53:02.490 –> 00:53:03.690
Jeff Louella: But the Wall Street Journal

688
00:53:04.290 –> 00:53:19.920
Jeff Louella: Like there is this integrity with like big things right and there was a time where the, I think the New York Times explodes JC Penney for doing black hat SEO and I was kind of actually shocked that it’s New York Times exposing them doing it. I can’t like

689
00:53:20.040 –> 00:53:21.180
Jeff Louella: Oh, Wall Street Journal

690
00:53:22.110 –> 00:53:32.400
Jeff Louella: Same to me. Same level, not knowing. Like I don’t read it. I’m actually but in my head, same level of professionalism, we get things right and misquoting like if it was a little misquote great but

691
00:53:32.940 –> 00:53:41.250
Jeff Louella: Are not great but you know an understandable, but I mean, as I think when Gabe said like he was not even a he was off the record. He was not even

692
00:53:41.760 –> 00:53:50.760
Jeff Louella: Mentioned in the article, and then they mentioned them with a, you know, with our misquote or me up because he said he’d never said that. So to me that’s not misquoting that’s just making up a quote

693
00:53:51.420 –> 00:54:07.980
Jeff Louella: And it looks at that going like, oh, that’s not great. And then just the topics that were in there. I think are easily understandable by most easily understandable, but most SEOs won’t say it’s black magic and that people were back there, controlling it like

694
00:54:08.430 –> 00:54:10.470
Jeff Louella: Of course they have people looking at results and

695
00:54:10.500 –> 00:54:18.780
Jeff Louella: Altering algorithms based on that because they want to make sure, like we are getting what we want and as a as a customer or

696
00:54:18.810 –> 00:54:20.220
Angela Bergmann: You know, my wife who doesn’t get SEO.

697
00:54:20.640 –> 00:54:22.500
Jeff Louella: she’s getting what she wants. When she typed it in

698
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:23.970
Jeff Louella: Like you have to

699
00:54:24.000 –> 00:54:24.990
Angela Bergmann: Look at the results.

700
00:54:25.020 –> 00:54:26.670
Angela Bergmann: And then all term with what

701
00:54:26.790 –> 00:54:28.290
Jeff Louella: What is great and it’s like again.

702
00:54:28.680 –> 00:54:30.300
Jeff Louella: We have 17

703
00:54:30.840 –> 00:54:34.590
Jeff Louella: Sites that didn’t make sense to me or one that okay it’s Wikipedia.

704
00:54:35.100 –> 00:54:37.920
Jeff Louella: Into the biggest site out there for information like of course they’re

705
00:54:37.920 –> 00:54:38.700
Jeff Louella: Gonna be up there all the time.

706
00:54:40.230 –> 00:54:44.190
Angela Bergmann: That’s the thing that like boggles my mind will articles like this where it’s like

707
00:54:44.790 –> 00:54:57.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, Google, the business, obviously they’re in it. They’re making money at the end of the day, though they only make money if they give people what they’re looking for. So that’s still their end goal their end goal still to give the consumer what they want.

708
00:54:58.860 –> 00:54:59.130
Angela Bergmann: And

709
00:55:00.600 –> 00:55:00.930
Angela Bergmann: It’s

710
00:55:00.960 –> 00:55:01.950
Jacob Stoops: It’s funny, like

711
00:55:03.210 –> 00:55:06.600
Jacob Stoops: Google is the reason I have a job, but then

712
00:55:06.720 –> 00:55:08.400
Angela Bergmann: There are a lot of times where I think

713
00:55:08.400 –> 00:55:09.840
Angela Bergmann: Google is

714
00:55:09.960 –> 00:55:12.090
Jacob Stoops: Evil sometimes. Yeah.

715
00:55:13.200 –> 00:55:14.790
Thank you a lot of things.

716
00:55:17.520 –> 00:55:18.840
Jacob Stoops: They say for users.

717
00:55:18.960 –> 00:55:25.350
Jacob Stoops: But really like a lot of stuff is to enrich the folks within the company and to affect

718
00:55:25.440 –> 00:55:25.980
Angela Bergmann: Oh, yeah.

719
00:55:26.790 –> 00:55:32.160
Angela Bergmann: And their shareholders and things, things of that nature. I actually don’t believe that this

720
00:55:32.160 –> 00:55:47.430
Jacob Stoops: Story is one of those things that I think it’s supposed to indict Google and I think maybe the average person who doesn’t do what we do will read it and think, what the hell’s going on at Google and will think that they’re the evil empire.

721
00:55:47.460 –> 00:55:50.760
Angela Bergmann: I think for the folks. Yeah, interviewed and for the folks

722
00:55:50.760 –> 00:55:59.340
Jacob Stoops: Inside the industry like I don’t take this article so seriously because I think that the way it’s being slanted is just

723
00:56:00.810 –> 00:56:04.650
Jacob Stoops: If stating things that aren’t a problem like they are a problem.

724
00:56:05.310 –> 00:56:06.570
Jacob Stoops: And I think the other side of

725
00:56:06.570 –> 00:56:07.740
Jacob Stoops: This is if I were one of the

726
00:56:07.740 –> 00:56:09.000
Jacob Stoops: People that got interviewed

727
00:56:10.080 –> 00:56:24.480
Jacob Stoops: I think what I was trying to say earlier is like, I don’t. I think they were being naive to think that a publication like this in in Jeff when that JC Penney thing happened. I feel like that’s more than 10 years ago the climate.

728
00:56:24.750 –> 00:56:27.330
Jacob Stoops: With media in that 10 years

729
00:56:27.660 –> 00:56:29.730
Angela Bergmann: Has changed radically

730
00:56:29.790 –> 00:56:31.530
Jacob Stoops: Especially with what’s going on in

731
00:56:31.740 –> 00:56:36.600
Jacob Stoops: Politics right now and it’s kind of like Hatfields and McCoys where like

732
00:56:37.380 –> 00:56:38.580
Jacob Stoops: One media outlet

733
00:56:39.180 –> 00:56:39.480
Angela Bergmann: Is

734
00:56:39.510 –> 00:56:46.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s very black and white against one side and the other media outlet outlet is very black and white against the other. And there’s no middle we

735
00:56:46.140 –> 00:56:55.320
Angela Bergmann: Are we are the enemy currently say I work on the agency side, but I still work for a media Publishing Company, first and foremost, we are the enemy right

736
00:56:55.650 –> 00:56:57.450
Jacob Stoops: So there’s a lot of bias.

737
00:56:57.930 –> 00:57:01.410
Jacob Stoops: Going on. So, so for these people like they have a right

738
00:57:01.470 –> 00:57:03.450
Jacob Stoops: To be pissed. I would be pissed if I was

739
00:57:03.480 –> 00:57:04.800
Jacob Stoops: misquoted or

740
00:57:04.830 –> 00:57:07.620
Jacob Stoops: Completely like having something a true. Oh, yeah.

741
00:57:07.950 –> 00:57:09.330
Angela Bergmann: You did. I didn’t say, but at the same

742
00:57:09.330 –> 00:57:12.900
Jacob Stoops: Time, like, consider the source. This is the wall.

743
00:57:12.900 –> 00:57:13.620
Jacob Stoops: Street Journal

744
00:57:14.190 –> 00:57:15.300
Jacob Stoops: They’re probably pushing an

745
00:57:15.300 –> 00:57:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Agenda, they’re not

746
00:57:17.760 –> 00:57:19.890
Angela Bergmann: An S. It’s not like their Search Engine Land.

747
00:57:19.950 –> 00:57:27.210
Jacob Stoops: Right. They’re not SEO news so they’re not people that know what goes on in the inner workings every day, like we do.

748
00:57:27.510 –> 00:57:44.310
Jacob Stoops: So, like, just by the very nature of it, they’re probably going to get some of it wrong or miss attribute or misunderstand some of what you’re saying. And when you layer that into the idea that there might be some sort of ulterior motive on the part of the reporter or the

749
00:57:45.630 –> 00:57:47.460
Jacob Stoops: The entity doing the publishing

750
00:57:48.690 –> 00:58:00.120
Jacob Stoops: I just think that probably the folks might have been a little naive to think that that wasn’t going to happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether they if I were in their situation being quoted

751
00:58:00.180 –> 00:58:01.680
Jacob Stoops: I probably would have provided a

752
00:58:01.680 –> 00:58:17.160
Jacob Stoops: Quote, to not saying that I wouldn’t have been it’s just an interesting way to, to think about it and I probably would have been mad if they miss quoted me. I don’t know if I would have thought of that way like cynically like I guess I should have expected it.

753
00:58:18.300 –> 00:58:30.390
Jacob Stoops: And I would imagine being in their place. Maybe they did think about that. Maybe they didn’t but like looking at it from an outsider’s perspective. I’m not surprised that it got distorted. So that’s my two cents.

754
00:58:31.530 –> 00:58:35.430
Jacob Stoops: Everybody in SEO who got quoted feel feel free to come and tap me but

755
00:58:36.300 –> 00:58:36.900
Jacob Stoops: I hope you don’t

756
00:58:39.000 –> 00:58:39.690
Angela Bergmann: I don’t want a part of

757
00:58:39.930 –> 00:58:40.650
Angela Bergmann: Twitter drama.

758
00:58:42.030 –> 00:58:44.460
Jacob Stoops: All right, Jeff, you can move on. That’s my piece.

759
00:58:44.940 –> 00:58:57.240
Jeff Louella: Cool. I mean, there was other parts to the story too. So, I mean, one of it. That was like a big thing right that Google’s manually changing things they’ve engineers behind that. Like they said that, you know, even a bot.

760
00:58:57.990 –> 00:58:58.950
Angela Bergmann: Placements

761
00:58:58.980 –> 00:59:00.420
Jeff Louella: You know, did to be better and

762
00:59:00.420 –> 00:59:00.960
Angela Bergmann: The search

763
00:59:02.220 –> 00:59:05.880
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, Hey, thank you for that upgrade, but I don’t think

764
00:59:06.660 –> 00:59:08.310
Jacob Stoops: That’s just called paid search

765
00:59:08.520 –> 00:59:09.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, so there was

766
00:59:10.080 –> 00:59:11.070
Jeff Louella: They’ve done paid search and

767
00:59:11.760 –> 00:59:16.050
Jeff Louella: Search. Right. So it’s, yeah, there were, there was a ton. You know, I think when the part of

768
00:59:16.350 –> 00:59:18.270
Angela Bergmann: A bigger budget. That’s not fair.

769
00:59:19.980 –> 00:59:23.400
Jeff Louella: They will parts of the Google employees thousand paid contractors

770
00:59:23.760 –> 00:59:29.070
Jeff Louella: Whose sole purpose is to assess the quality of the algorithm and rankings like that is a negative thing.

771
00:59:30.120 –> 00:59:30.780
Jeff Louella: Like and

772
00:59:30.990 –> 00:59:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Lots of corporations high opaque attractors to do things.

773
00:59:35.880 –> 00:59:48.390
Jeff Louella: But then they survey them and say, Okay, did you see the results that you expected. And they will say like yes or no. I think this should be here and there, and that’s where really brand dominance comes into play. Like if I’m searching for

774
00:59:48.870 –> 00:59:49.200
Jeff Louella: You know,

775
00:59:49.650 –> 00:59:50.820
Jeff Louella: Some sort of

776
00:59:51.690 –> 00:59:57.870
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, a stroller. And like I was expecting target to show up because targets right down the street from me.

777
00:59:58.470 –> 01:00:09.240
Jeff Louella: And I didn’t get target, I would probably say, hey, I thought like started with me there and then Google can just things to maybe get results, but they’re not like targets not calling them and saying, hey, we’re not number one.

778
01:00:10.110 –> 01:00:11.130
Jeff Louella: Let’s put us in this place.

779
01:00:11.160 –> 01:00:11.790
Jeff Louella: And they

780
01:00:12.510 –> 01:00:19.410
Jeff Louella: They’re saying this is across thousands of contractors, right, like a quick like you’re not just going to tweak something and be like, Okay. Like, that’s probably

781
01:00:19.830 –> 01:00:33.270
Jeff Louella: Everything with Google. One of the ranking factors, right, because other things come into place. You know, we know links and content and all this other stuff comes into play. But at the end, if there are giving you the results you you’re not going to use them. Right, so it’s

782
01:00:33.330 –> 01:00:33.780
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of

783
01:00:34.770 –> 01:00:36.000
Jeff Louella: The effect of where it’s

784
01:00:36.030 –> 01:00:45.750
Jeff Louella: You know, we see this on the side of things, right, where it’s, I mean, there’s one reason. Google is Google. And that’s because they mostly give us what we want.

785
01:00:46.500 –> 01:00:47.460
Angela Bergmann: As an SEO.

786
01:00:47.670 –> 01:00:57.480
Jeff Louella: I sometimes hate that, because I don’t want the, you know, this knowledge graph to come up above my client site, but as a consumer, like great answer my question banks.

787
01:00:58.920 –> 01:01:00.000
Angela Bergmann: Don’t need to go to the website so

788
01:01:00.030 –> 01:01:08.490
Jeff Louella: I see both sides of it and I had to think about it as a consumer side of things and consumers like we need like I’m typing into Google and he ever results.

789
01:01:09.150 –> 01:01:22.830
Jeff Louella: As an SEO. I hate that, like, okay, my 10 links are now push down because I have images and paid search and things in the paid side to me as a consumer who wouldn’t know it could be deceptive, to an extent.

790
01:01:24.270 –> 01:01:29.160
Jeff Louella: I mean, they may name it ads. But if I don’t know anything about search like I’m clicking one of those ads. Right, so it’s

791
01:01:30.360 –> 01:01:35.940
Jeff Louella: And hopefully Google’s placing the right ads, where they need to be collect or or someone’s paying for ads for no reason.

792
01:01:37.950 –> 01:01:40.320
Jeff Louella: But yeah, there’s a ton in there, I think.

793
01:01:41.490 –> 01:01:44.370
Jeff Louella: One of the things is like they went through and saying that

794
01:01:45.630 –> 01:01:47.850
Jeff Louella: They had a black list of

795
01:01:48.720 –> 01:01:50.310
Jeff Louella: Domain companies that they don’t

796
01:01:50.340 –> 01:01:51.030
Angela Bergmann: Rank well

797
01:01:51.660 –> 01:01:54.000
Jeff Louella: And maybe like

798
01:01:54.570 –> 01:01:56.100
Jeff Louella: I don’t think there’s like a whiteboard with like

799
01:01:56.100 –> 01:01:59.970
Jeff Louella: All, you know, or if you ever watch the TV show blacklist.

800
01:02:01.380 –> 01:02:02.670
Jeff Louella: Yeah, or anything like that.

801
01:02:02.670 –> 01:02:03.900
Angela Bergmann: But it’s like hey

802
01:02:04.170 –> 01:02:06.660
Jeff Louella: There’s spammers out there and of course

803
01:02:06.810 –> 01:02:07.230
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

804
01:02:07.590 –> 01:02:09.090
Jeff Louella: We don’t want them showing up.

805
01:02:09.120 –> 01:02:10.260
Jeff Louella: Because we weren’t following reason.

806
01:02:10.680 –> 01:02:14.520
Angela Bergmann: Now it does not exist for a reason.

807
01:02:16.590 –> 01:02:20.820
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve got all those files were self reporting.

808
01:02:22.500 –> 01:02:23.250
Angela Bergmann: So, I mean, I think.

809
01:02:23.280 –> 01:02:25.620
Jeff Louella: As SEOs we get this and we see it as bad and I

810
01:02:25.710 –> 01:02:27.720
Angela Bergmann: Understand the backlash lash out there.

811
01:02:28.440 –> 01:02:29.970
Jeff Louella: On there, but it’s one of those where

812
01:02:31.350 –> 01:02:39.210
Jeff Louella: Maybe this is where like we were talking about earlier that like I feel like the beginner stuff that I like to look like everyone knows that.

813
01:02:40.110 –> 01:02:51.360
Jeff Louella: But there’s, you know, and it comes to things like that, especially in the Wall Street Journal, maybe point 1% knows, like the truth there and that’s where it comes damaging and I think we also tried to

814
01:02:51.390 –> 01:02:53.280
Angela Bergmann: defend ourselves as SEOs

815
01:02:53.460 –> 01:02:56.730
Jeff Louella: Plenty of times we. There’s a lot of bad

816
01:02:56.910 –> 01:02:57.600
Angela Bergmann: News out there.

817
01:02:57.660 –> 01:02:58.380
Right, so

818
01:03:00.270 –> 01:03:02.130
Jeff Louella: We don’t want to be misquoted like a good ones don’t.

819
01:03:02.160 –> 01:03:04.320
Jeff Louella: Be misquoted or see like we’re playing

820
01:03:04.560 –> 01:03:07.290
Angela Bergmann: Like magic that’s going on. So, I get that.

821
01:03:10.590 –> 01:03:14.190
Angela Bergmann: I think that’s where I think some of the frustration for that article comes from is that it’s

822
01:03:15.390 –> 01:03:17.220
Angela Bergmann: A more highly regarded new sort of

823
01:03:19.110 –> 01:03:24.870
Angela Bergmann: Niche recording misreporting about our industry when we already. We already have enough crap that we have to

824
01:03:28.290 –> 01:03:30.030
Angela Bergmann: Add them in. Now, to think

825
01:03:31.620 –> 01:03:33.210
Angela Bergmann: That is a good point and

826
01:03:34.260 –> 01:03:43.890
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, you brought up a good point. Like, there are a lot of bad SEO is out there. And one of the thoughts that was occurring in my brain was, well, if I’m a bad SEO like

827
01:03:44.460 –> 01:03:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Do I know that I’m a bad SEO and probably the answer is, not always. And I’m not saying any of those folks are bad SEOs but what occurred to me. Next is if I were a good SEO.

828
01:03:56.730 –> 01:04:04.380
Jacob Stoops: And this is some sort of a smear against Google or a sneer against SEO in general.

829
01:04:05.040 –> 01:04:18.390
Jacob Stoops: There might be the perception that I’m a bad SEO and I wouldn’t want that perception associated with me if, indeed, I was a good SEO. So yeah, I could see where the folks might get mad about that. It is a good question. I never

830
01:04:18.390 –> 01:04:22.320
Jeff Louella: Thought about was advantage to that I know if I was an SEO.

831
01:04:23.730 –> 01:04:35.040
Jeff Louella: Like the link builders realize that there. I guess spammers and other spammers right so it’s, yeah. But there’s, I mean there. I know there’s white hat Red Hat and things like that so

832
01:04:36.630 –> 01:04:38.220
Angela Bergmann: It’s interesting because I just don’t

833
01:04:39.060 –> 01:04:54.870
Jeff Louella: I do find that that that look right with companies that like, oh, SEO is black magic or SEO is is bad and actually fighting internal politics at companies where I’m trying to tell a developer, how to code a site a certain way.

834
01:04:55.200 –> 01:04:56.040
Jeff Louella: Am I giving you the code.

835
01:04:56.400 –> 01:04:57.630
Angela Bergmann: We need these results at the

836
01:04:57.630 –> 01:04:58.500
Jeff Louella: End and

837
01:04:58.530 –> 01:05:00.150
Jeff Louella: They think of me as like

838
01:05:01.500 –> 01:05:02.220
Angela Bergmann: The enemy.

839
01:05:02.490 –> 01:05:04.080
Jeff Louella: The enemy and something so

840
01:05:04.890 –> 01:05:08.220
Jeff Louella: Having more fuel to their fire is not what I’m looking for.

841
01:05:08.700 –> 01:05:09.300
Angela Bergmann: And it. Yeah.

842
01:05:09.360 –> 01:05:10.440
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I’m not gonna say like

843
01:05:11.010 –> 01:05:17.760
Jeff Louella: Hey trust everything in SEO says also because I think that’s why there could be some misquotes in that article, depending on the interview.

844
01:05:18.660 –> 01:05:27.090
Jeff Louella: Like there are plenty of SEO is out there who believe Google’s manipulating your search results. And that’s why they can’t get the number one. That’s what they’re telling their clients like you’ll never be

845
01:05:27.630 –> 01:05:29.430
Jeff Louella: Target because their target.

846
01:05:29.850 –> 01:05:37.890
Jeff Louella: And there might be some truth to that. But to say that Google reserve this spot for target is not. Yeah, it’s not right. It’s

847
01:05:38.550 –> 01:05:43.290
Jeff Louella: Become become Amazon like Amazon started off as a guy in the back of his truck like delivering books.

848
01:05:43.830 –> 01:05:52.860
Jeff Louella: And now he’s Amazon right and not everyone can do that of course it’s a it’s an amazing story, but the same time you know it’s it’s really hard for small business.

849
01:05:53.370 –> 01:06:05.790
Jeff Louella: Right now to rank for those top end terms. You got to find a better way. You know, whether it’s social or just giving customers different, you know, becoming that authority becoming that like expertise.

850
01:06:06.750 –> 01:06:15.480
Jeff Louella: It’s it’s a lot of work and it’s not something you can pay $500 a month to do, especially when you’re fighting against like someone like Target and Amazon in

851
01:06:15.870 –> 01:06:16.500
Angela Bergmann: Our space.

852
01:06:17.610 –> 01:06:27.240
Angela Bergmann: And the point that I always make people to as those top terms are going to be your conversion point. Anyways, so just ignore them like they’re not going to actually turn into dollars for you. You don’t want that traffic.

853
01:06:29.070 –> 01:06:30.240
Jacob Stoops: But people have vanity.

854
01:06:31.050 –> 01:06:33.450
Angela Bergmann: And people have egos.

855
01:06:34.080 –> 01:06:35.490
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the problem.

856
01:06:35.670 –> 01:06:39.150
Angela Bergmann: They want those terms. Yeah, and have them so

857
01:06:40.410 –> 01:06:49.470
Jacob Stoops: Anyways. So Jeff, I know that there’s some other news, we’re running short on short on time. So I want to dive into structured data.

858
01:06:51.660 –> 01:06:54.120
Jacob Stoops: So, Angela. I know.

859
01:06:54.540 –> 01:06:55.200
You were saying

860
01:06:56.340 –> 01:06:57.150
That you do

861
01:06:58.530 –> 01:07:07.770
Jacob Stoops: You work all the time in structured data. So I guess what are, what are your thoughts. What do you like about it. What do you not like about it. What would you recommend to people.

862
01:07:09.360 –> 01:07:24.540
Angela Bergmann: So I’ll start with the thing that I don’t like about it on. I don’t like how little visibility, there is into the reporting for it because of how critical it’s become so their search console. I can see some rich snippet information.

863
01:07:26.940 –> 01:07:27.960
Angela Bergmann: Kind of what again.

864
01:07:29.190 –> 01:07:34.920
Angela Bergmann: Like at least there’s that visibility, so I can show the eyeball, um,

865
01:07:36.060 –> 01:07:49.440
Angela Bergmann: So I’ve started, including that in my reporting for clients but but more robust reporting specific to snippet placement would be amazing, because I do at the end of the day, understand that it’s

866
01:07:51.210 –> 01:07:57.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, it’s tough to the Google can make money, but it also is user experience, the less the user has to click the happier. They are

867
01:07:59.250 –> 01:08:06.990
Angela Bergmann: And so Google is going to make their money. So I totally 100% yet it from their side, but I really want

868
01:08:08.970 –> 01:08:26.130
Angela Bergmann: To be able to show my clients, where they’re showing up like here’s all the backend work that I’ve done. Here’s all the coding that we’ve done implemented and it’s working. Here’s the effect that it’s having not just looked at all eyeballs that for you. Yeah.

869
01:08:28.920 –> 01:08:29.760
Angela Bergmann: You like it.

870
01:08:31.680 –> 01:08:41.880
Jacob Stoops: The thing that I find interesting in like Jeff, I would say, Jeff, you’re probably a little bit more technical than, than I am, although I’m pretty I’m pretty technical is

871
01:08:42.900 –> 01:08:51.870
Jacob Stoops: Everybody knows, quote unquote, I’m gonna say quote unquote knows that structured data is supposedly a good thing, right.

872
01:08:53.040 –> 01:09:03.390
Jacob Stoops: And there’s all kinds of structured data out there and I’m glad that we’re now calling it structured data because that’s the larger umbrella. A lot of people just call it schema.org and I keep going well.

873
01:09:03.390 –> 01:09:04.680
Angela Bergmann: That’s, that’s one type

874
01:09:05.160 –> 01:09:05.580
Jacob Stoops: But like

875
01:09:05.610 –> 01:09:17.850
Jacob Stoops: There are a bunch of other not a bunch. But there are other types of structured data that Google can use. So people a lot of times get structured data and schema.org confused confused and

876
01:09:18.210 –> 01:09:18.780
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

877
01:09:19.050 –> 01:09:19.530
I find it.

878
01:09:20.580 –> 01:09:39.300
Jacob Stoops: I find that part. Interesting. But the thing, the thing about structured data in general is is when we’re doing a technical audit or when we’re working on a sites technical foundation that is one of our leading recommendations in terms of things that we often see lacking that need

879
01:09:39.480 –> 01:09:41.250
Angela Bergmann: Implemented but the thought.

880
01:09:41.280 –> 01:09:53.430
Jacob Stoops: Always occurs to me is, should it be, should it be one of our leading recommendations. And the reason why is there are so many types of structured data out there.

881
01:09:54.120 –> 01:10:07.050
Jacob Stoops: What the things that actually populate rich snippets in search results versus the amount of structured data that’s available that you could mark your site up with. It’s like

882
01:10:07.110 –> 01:10:08.460
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, and percent

883
01:10:08.850 –> 01:10:11.820
Jacob Stoops: Or 20% or I don’t even know what the percentage is but like

884
01:10:12.690 –> 01:10:14.670
Jacob Stoops: You could mark mark the

885
01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:28.440
Jacob Stoops: Crap out of your site with all kinds of structured data and there’s no proof. There’s no proof that it’s actually doing anything beneficial for you until you get some sort of a rich snippet.

886
01:10:28.890 –> 01:10:39.180
Jacob Stoops: And what you’re saying and it’s in. It’s very true is even when you get that the reporting is so limited in terms in terms of is it doing anything valuable.

887
01:10:39.540 –> 01:10:56.730
Jacob Stoops: For you that it always makes me scratch my head when I hear folks go yeah structured data is is good and we want to feed Google a bunch of information and we need to get that implemented right away because it’s critical to technical site health

888
01:10:57.330 –> 01:10:58.650
Jacob Stoops: And the thing I always like

889
01:10:59.130 –> 01:11:00.180
Jacob Stoops: Take a step back and

890
01:11:00.180 –> 01:11:05.280
Jacob Stoops: Think is okay. I agree. But like, when we’re talking to the client like

891
01:11:05.730 –> 01:11:19.650
Jacob Stoops: A lot of times they need proof and they need evidence and they need a reason to prioritize something in their development queue or to display something in their development huge prioritize your recommendations. And the thing I

892
01:11:19.650 –> 01:11:19.980
Angela Bergmann: Always

893
01:11:20.040 –> 01:11:22.080
Jacob Stoops: Worry about is we have such a limited

894
01:11:22.470 –> 01:11:35.850
Jacob Stoops: window to get things implemented and to make an impact before our contract runs out on the agency side and I always worry that we’re blindly following quote unquote best practices because Google

895
01:11:36.450 –> 01:11:50.280
Jacob Stoops: Pushes it or because we think it’s a best practice without ever testing it on the other end without testing say hey I implemented blog post schema. Okay, well, that’s great. Did it do anything for you.

896
01:11:51.630 –> 01:11:54.120
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know. That’s usually the answer. I don’t know.

897
01:11:55.200 –> 01:12:11.460
Jacob Stoops: But it’s the best practice. So I guess I should implement it and the thing about it is that that honestly that drives me crazy. And what I wish is one that they were better recording and to I wish that more SEOs with think along the

898
01:12:12.570 –> 01:12:18.300
Jacob Stoops: Would use the Frank. The, the line of thinking of test it and measure

899
01:12:18.690 –> 01:12:19.800
Angela Bergmann: Once you implement it.

900
01:12:20.190 –> 01:12:21.210
Angela Bergmann: You what then happens

901
01:12:21.210 –> 01:12:38.610
Jacob Stoops: After that, from a result standpoint and document it so that when you go to another client and you recommend that particular type of structured data scheme or whatever you can say, hey, I did this on this client. And it worked out really well. And here’s why. And

902
01:12:39.180 –> 01:12:40.440
Jacob Stoops: Times, like, especially with

903
01:12:40.440 –> 01:12:49.020
Jacob Stoops: Things that don’t trigger rich snippets, it’s going to be correlation and not necessarily causation, because there’s not really a lot of reporting on it.

904
01:12:50.820 –> 01:12:51.990
Angela Bergmann: But yeah, that’s all I can.

905
01:12:51.990 –> 01:12:56.100
Angela Bergmann: Do and say, oh, well, we saw this many more eyeballs.

906
01:12:57.330 –> 01:13:07.890
Angela Bergmann: That then we do an audit and then we switch over to analytics and we look at, like, they’re your of your organic and then see if their conversion rate is increased and let’s talk about your correlating that if it did increase

907
01:13:08.460 –> 01:13:15.060
Angela Bergmann: It’s probably due to the snippet capture. There’s that connection, isn’t there yet. Yeah. And like

908
01:13:15.630 –> 01:13:23.460
Jacob Stoops: Don’t get me wrong, I love working unstructured data like nothing makes me happier than to sit for an hour and to develop some like

909
01:13:23.940 –> 01:13:35.730
Jacob Stoops: Clean beautiful JSON structured data market to pass over to the client, say, hey, just throw this into your page. And it’s that part for me because I come from, like, a technical background like

910
01:13:36.240 –> 01:13:44.550
Jacob Stoops: I enjoy doing that and I enjoy putting those recommendations together for clients and I enjoy even more when they implement them and they implement them correctly.

911
01:13:44.880 –> 01:13:45.990
Jacob Stoops: When I can go. Yes.

912
01:13:46.440 –> 01:13:47.670
Jacob Stoops: data testing tool and

913
01:13:47.670 –> 01:13:50.460
Jacob Stoops: See no validation like that.

914
01:13:50.820 –> 01:13:51.630
Jacob Stoops: That stuff like

915
01:13:52.080 –> 01:13:59.310
Jacob Stoops: That makes my heart happy but like the cynic in me and I think every good SEO is also part cynic.

916
01:14:00.030 –> 01:14:01.020
Angela Bergmann: Automatically

917
01:14:01.080 –> 01:14:02.670
Jacob Stoops: Also thinks like, Okay, I’ve got a

918
01:14:02.730 –> 01:14:10.650
Jacob Stoops: I’ve got a finite amount of time with this client, potentially, and I’ve got a finite amount of things that they can implement and I always think like

919
01:14:10.710 –> 01:14:11.070
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

920
01:14:12.000 –> 01:14:13.080
Jacob Stoops: Is this the thing that’s going to

921
01:14:13.080 –> 01:14:24.300
Jacob Stoops: move the needle or is this the thing we’re just trying to get in place, because it’s a best practice and like I think we should all think about the things that move the needle and move those up in the queue before the things that

922
01:14:24.840 –> 01:14:25.320
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, our

923
01:14:25.350 –> 01:14:27.450
Angela Bergmann: Housekeeping best practice items.

924
01:14:29.040 –> 01:14:43.080
Angela Bergmann: And it depends on the vertical to so like if you’re, if you have a client that’s in a vertical where eyeballs are really important. So I one of the one of the clients that I run very high volume schema for is a realtor

925
01:14:44.610 –> 01:14:51.960
Angela Bergmann: They care about eyeballs and they they’re competing against Zillow and Trulia and all of these sites. So realistically

926
01:14:52.290 –> 01:15:00.480
Angela Bergmann: They’re generating content they’re doing all the other stuff that we tend to do for clients. So they’re literally a technical client for us. I

927
01:15:00.870 –> 01:15:07.890
Angela Bergmann: Hold their developer accountable. The page speed improvements and then I implement schema on their site. And that’s all I do for them.

928
01:15:08.580 –> 01:15:20.910
Angela Bergmann: And they’ve seen huge organic growth year over year because of that, but they’re one of those situations where I get to have fun and do that because they’re just looking for visibility, they’re not looking for conversions.

929
01:15:21.750 –> 01:15:32.430
Angela Bergmann: How do I have plants were schema might be fantastic, but they don’t even have content so content got to come first. Oh, let me ask you this.

930
01:15:32.730 –> 01:15:34.860
Angela Bergmann: How did you get into a situation where

931
01:15:35.130 –> 01:15:41.640
Jacob Stoops: The client trust you enough to implement schema, because usually like developers are like, keep your damn hands off.

932
01:15:43.950 –> 01:15:56.370
Angela Bergmann: Um, basically, the way I so we did an audit of their site. We have a custom audit. That’s about 120 pages looks about 350 different points that we go over

933
01:15:57.630 –> 01:16:06.390
Angela Bergmann: Everything and then really for them. I was like, you know, you as a realtor you have great content, your, your descriptions for your homes are amazing.

934
01:16:07.410 –> 01:16:18.810
Angela Bergmann: your site’s going to be a little slow, but it’s a little slower than I think it should be especially when comparing it to your competitors and I pitched them. I said, here’s the thing. I was like, you’re not going to be Zillow

935
01:16:20.340 –> 01:16:34.500
Angela Bergmann: You’re just not but you can beat the other local realtors because somebody’s going to find a home on Zillow and then they know that they’re going to have to go to somebody local so you can be the second result after those big company.

936
01:16:35.850 –> 01:16:50.370
Angela Bergmann: And I taught them because they had no. The reason they had reached out as they’d notice that one of their competitive agencies was showing up before them for the same homes and I determined that it was because their title and none of the structure was pretty terrible.

937
01:16:51.600 –> 01:17:08.430
Angela Bergmann: Got their developers to change it saw within like a couple of months saw drastic change where they were starting to beat them out. And I was like, here’s the next step. The next step is going to be applying schema because they don’t have it Zillow does

938
01:17:09.480 –> 01:17:14.550
Angela Bergmann: That that’s your that’s your sweet spot. And it’s approved to work.

939
01:17:16.560 –> 01:17:27.690
Angela Bergmann: So it was fun. We had a really good relationship with this client already on our paid search side so that helps as well and just having a good real good trusting relationship with this client.

940
01:17:28.200 –> 01:17:39.630
Angela Bergmann: And they kind of let me roll those dice and I was like, I think this is going to pay off. So I told them to. I said, You know, I can’t make any guarantees on this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

941
01:17:41.280 –> 01:17:44.850
Angela Bergmann: And a year later, we we’ve seen, we’ve seen it pan out

942
01:17:46.350 –> 01:17:57.990
Angela Bergmann: But there is that fear you know as an SEO as it goes like, you’re like, No, no, this really should be the thing. It should should work. It should work. Yeah, please God, let it warm.

943
01:18:00.420 –> 01:18:03.390
Angela Bergmann: Google does they have some examples like

944
01:18:03.540 –> 01:18:04.710
Jeff Louella: Google does give some good advice.

945
01:18:04.890 –> 01:18:06.120
Jeff Louella: On like

946
01:18:06.720 –> 01:18:17.820
Jeff Louella: How to schema. Like, like if you do it right. Like it doesn’t guarantee, but you can get a nice you know how to section on your mobile phone or FAQ schema. But then there are those ones out there.

947
01:18:17.880 –> 01:18:18.120
Angela Bergmann: Like

948
01:18:18.900 –> 01:18:23.010
Jeff Louella: I don’t know, I just kind of looked up real quick there like one for comic books.

949
01:18:23.040 –> 01:18:24.810
Jeff Louella: I mean, I guess if you have a comic book site.

950
01:18:24.810 –> 01:18:29.430
Jeff Louella: Or stuff, but it’s like the product. Is it, like, Is Google going to do anything. Yeah.

951
01:18:29.460 –> 01:18:30.540
Jeff Louella: On that one or

952
01:18:31.050 –> 01:18:39.090
Jeff Louella: Are they gonna do anything for if you are. I don’t know, looking here like movies make sense. Like there’s certain ones I know events.

953
01:18:39.420 –> 01:18:42.630
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, certain ones that I know that we need to to be

954
01:18:43.770 –> 01:18:59.400
Jeff Louella: You know ingested into Google properly and kind of displayed in their stuff that there’s ones that we need. But then there are a whole bunch out there like I know bread crumbs, give, give me good bread crumbs. I know that you know there’s tools out there.

955
01:18:59.430 –> 01:18:59.790
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

956
01:18:59.940 –> 01:19:00.750
Jeff Louella: A whole bunch that are

957
01:19:01.230 –> 01:19:13.020
Jeff Louella: No clue on local like I usually don’t recommend it really easy depending again on vertical insight, like there’s a there’s a handful that I recommend and then either are so many more.

958
01:19:13.740 –> 01:19:25.320
Jeff Louella: And is it like eventually Google is going to get around to these and they’re eventually going to be put in there. Are we ahead of the game are we wasting our time like and Jake is you’re saying, You’re right, like there are up.

959
01:19:25.500 –> 01:19:26.010
Jeff Louella: Even if

960
01:19:26.070 –> 01:19:29.490
Jeff Louella: We have a finite amount of time to know results.

961
01:19:30.090 –> 01:19:31.380
Jeff Louella: And thinking for like

962
01:19:31.800 –> 01:19:33.930
Jeff Louella: Four years down the road is not one of them right now.

963
01:19:34.950 –> 01:19:35.250
Jeff Louella: And

964
01:19:35.880 –> 01:19:36.930
Angela Bergmann: I’m hoping that

965
01:19:37.320 –> 01:19:45.870
Jeff Louella: Structured data helps other things too, right, like so right now we have things like open graph that like when you put it on your site and some post on to

966
01:19:46.230 –> 01:19:57.270
Jeff Louella: Your Pinterest or Facebook, it pulls that information in. From there, you know, Twitter has their Twitter cards and stuff but like I think structured data can feed other things like your calendar, because you have an event.

967
01:19:57.690 –> 01:19:59.280
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, your calendar should integrate with

968
01:19:59.280 –> 01:20:03.180
Jeff Louella: Schema to pull those events into your calendar and things like that. Yep scheme is

969
01:20:03.210 –> 01:20:04.350
Angela Bergmann: Great that way, but

970
01:20:04.380 –> 01:20:08.850
Jeff Louella: I don’t see like Microsoft Outlook using them yet.

971
01:20:08.880 –> 01:20:10.830
Jeff Louella: Right, so it’s we do it as SEOs

972
01:20:10.830 –> 01:20:11.580
Angela Bergmann: For SEO.

973
01:20:12.060 –> 01:20:26.190
Jeff Louella: And I feel like there’s such a big potential for every other type of app out there that needs to be data. I think on my website, which is sad. These days, I think of it as like a feed that I’m feeding Google, um, you know, if you think

974
01:20:26.220 –> 01:20:26.910
Jeff Louella: About it as like

975
01:20:27.090 –> 01:20:28.110
Jeff Louella: Here’s my XML feed.

976
01:20:28.110 –> 01:20:32.550
Jeff Louella: Here’s my content for years, all these different fields. And then let’s get it to make it pretty for customers.

977
01:20:33.540 –> 01:20:49.110
Jeff Louella: It’s kind of how I think and things, but not everybody does, of course, but I would love for you know like music playlist schema to be able to be ingested by my iTunes app, but it’s not there right now. Like it’s it’s really just

978
01:20:49.110 –> 01:20:50.100
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, just

979
01:20:52.230 –> 01:21:05.340
Angela Bergmann: Like the only ones that I really focus on is like Product Listing blog FAQ. Um, we’re doing a lot of with the medical related schema.

980
01:21:06.570 –> 01:21:09.420
Angela Bergmann: Just because that’s huge in search, obviously.

981
01:21:10.830 –> 01:21:11.490
Angela Bergmann: And then

982
01:21:14.070 –> 01:21:24.660
Angela Bergmann: Organizational schema like by default we essentially load organizational schema for every client. And that’s really and then it’s like, based on the client kind of where we go from there. So,

983
01:21:24.870 –> 01:21:30.360
Angela Bergmann: I always tell clients because they’ll ask about that. How do I get position zero. I’m like, well, you have to have good content first

984
01:21:33.300 –> 01:21:34.200
Jacob Stoops: Ever had

985
01:21:34.650 –> 01:21:53.970
Jacob Stoops: Any instances where you recommended a particular I’m going to say product schema, for example, and a client was apprehensive about some of the features of their product or offering showing up in search results for a consumer to see

986
01:21:59.430 –> 01:22:00.930
That I haven’t yet.

987
01:22:02.580 –> 01:22:03.120
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

988
01:22:03.210 –> 01:22:05.910
Jacob Stoops: I have a, I have a story where I

989
01:22:07.650 –> 01:22:21.600
Jacob Stoops: had a client who is I guess what I would call up they make a premium product. So it’s like the within what they do. It’s like the Cadillac, not the Honda version.

990
01:22:21.630 –> 01:22:23.460
Angela Bergmann: Of a product and

991
01:22:23.640 –> 01:22:33.810
Jacob Stoops: They make a really great product, but we were working to implement product schema. And one of the things that’s a huge component of that is, price, price and availability and

992
01:22:36.780 –> 01:22:39.480
Angela Bergmann: They did not want to expose price in

993
01:22:41.220 –> 01:22:42.300
Jacob Stoops: Right, yeah.

994
01:22:42.690 –> 01:22:43.890
Angela Bergmann: Their price is

995
01:22:43.920 –> 01:22:53.490
Jacob Stoops: A little bit higher. And I thought that that was an interesting position to take, given that a consumer is going to figure it out once they click

996
01:22:54.180 –> 01:22:55.230
Angela Bergmann: And get to the site.

997
01:22:55.260 –> 01:23:04.320
Jacob Stoops: But when I think about it from their perspective. Well, the consumer sees that price they may never click on it in the first place.

998
01:23:04.380 –> 01:23:11.220
Angela Bergmann: And they’re not going to understand the context is they’re not going to understand the context, they’re just going to see this much more expensive thing.

999
01:23:11.220 –> 01:23:12.720
Angela Bergmann: Especially if other sites.

1000
01:23:12.930 –> 01:23:15.930
Jacob Stoops: In the competitive set are using that schema and

1001
01:23:15.930 –> 01:23:22.830
Angela Bergmann: showing their price. Oh, although I think the argument could be made for a client like that that

1002
01:23:24.570 –> 01:23:26.430
Angela Bergmann: I’m more scared when there’s no price.

1003
01:23:27.600 –> 01:23:28.080
Angela Bergmann: Right.

1004
01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:32.070
Jacob Stoops: What right, and like, okay, if I’m a consumer and

1005
01:23:32.100 –> 01:23:33.540
Jacob Stoops: I look at that and I’m

1006
01:23:33.960 –> 01:23:35.520
Jacob Stoops: Looking for that particular

1007
01:23:35.520 –> 01:23:41.100
Jacob Stoops: PRODUCT, AND I’M AFRAID OF THE PRICE my really the right type of consumer for you. Anyways, is

1008
01:23:41.160 –> 01:23:41.970
Angela Bergmann: One. Yeah.

1009
01:23:42.600 –> 01:23:43.530
Jacob Stoops: And I’ve seen

1010
01:23:43.830 –> 01:23:55.830
Jacob Stoops: Not what this schema, necessarily, but with I’ve seen with review schema, the one of the few times I’ve been able, and this was in the past when there just wasn’t a lot of data.

1011
01:23:57.090 –> 01:24:01.710
Jacob Stoops: YOU WOULD THERE WASN’T THE NICE Google Search Console data that there is now where

1012
01:24:02.940 –> 01:24:10.530
Jacob Stoops: We had star ratings and there was a time when because they worked with a specific vendor bizarre voice.

1013
01:24:11.790 –> 01:24:12.330
Jacob Stoops: Who I hate

1014
01:24:13.530 –> 01:24:14.940
Jacob Stoops: They worked with that vendor.

1015
01:24:14.940 –> 01:24:16.140
Jacob Stoops: And their

1016
01:24:16.170 –> 01:24:17.250
Jacob Stoops: star ratings.

1017
01:24:17.970 –> 01:24:21.720
Jacob Stoops: Magically dropped off because their schema was wrong and then

1018
01:24:22.470 –> 01:24:35.340
Jacob Stoops: Once we worked with bizarre voice to get that fixed the star ratings came back and we because we had that nice apples to apples comparison were able to get a very clean.

1019
01:24:35.820 –> 01:24:50.070
Jacob Stoops: Before, and after. And were able to get a very clean incremental click through rate gain based on just the presence of star ratings in in search results, and it was substantial and for that brand in

1020
01:24:50.070 –> 01:24:50.820
Angela Bergmann: Particular

1021
01:24:51.210 –> 01:24:52.530
Jacob Stoops: There are massive worldwide.

1022
01:24:52.530 –> 01:25:10.830
Jacob Stoops: Brand. So an increasing click through rate of 1% for them met hundreds of thousands of more visitors just by having star ratings and that’s the argument that I always try to use with with clients in terms of things that are going to trigger rich snippets in search results is like hey

1023
01:25:12.210 –> 01:25:19.830
Jacob Stoops: It’s highly likely that more people are going to click on your, your page as a result of this, this feature, but

1024
01:25:19.920 –> 01:25:20.250
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1025
01:25:20.640 –> 01:25:22.020
Jacob Stoops: On the business side they’re, you know,

1026
01:25:22.020 –> 01:25:31.110
Jacob Stoops: They’re definitely thinking of their business and they’re trying to they’re there, they were taking the opposite stance that if people see our price, which is a Cadillac price.

1027
01:25:32.370 –> 01:25:39.750
Jacob Stoops: Maybe there’ll be scared away. So that was an interesting, interesting little tidbit that I’ve that I’ve been through before it was

1028
01:25:40.770 –> 01:25:43.110
Jacob Stoops: Interesting. I’ll just say, I’ll leave it at that.

1029
01:25:47.640 –> 01:25:49.590
Jeff Louella: DOESN’T SURPRISE either and

1030
01:25:49.710 –> 01:25:51.210
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s, it’s

1031
01:25:51.840 –> 01:25:59.760
Jeff Louella: Not because they don’t want to. It’s because they also have half their businesses are franchise and the franchisees

1032
01:26:00.450 –> 01:26:01.710
Angela Bergmann: Price. Ooh.

1033
01:26:02.340 –> 01:26:05.220
Jeff Louella: And even though it’s mostly the same there are

1034
01:26:05.400 –> 01:26:06.780
Jeff Louella: Outliers, where if

1035
01:26:06.900 –> 01:26:25.440
Jeff Louella: That same business has a store in Alaska. It takes the they sell it for more expensive because you have to ship to Alaska to have it in their store. And so they charge maybe $1 more and they don’t you know when people going in the store saying like your website says this price.

1036
01:26:26.610 –> 01:26:33.090
Jeff Louella: For this price. So the only way to get prices is when you get to the website is to select your local store and then you get that local stores pricing.

1037
01:26:34.380 –> 01:26:39.720
Jeff Louella: But Google does not have a local store and or or if they did, it would always be

1038
01:26:39.990 –> 01:26:54.930
Jeff Louella: The pricing and that’s one of those where they can’t do it. And I feel sometimes I I’m fighting a battle with, you know, one hand tied behind my back because matter all the arguments I have like they’re like, we have to look out for our franchisees

1039
01:26:55.980 –> 01:27:03.450
Jeff Louella: So it’s, it’s an interesting battle there. So we try to do other things, of course, but like we just give the highest price, then, and then they were saying they don’t want to do that either.

1040
01:27:04.200 –> 01:27:07.470
Angela Bergmann: Well, people are surprised when it’s lower on the website.

1041
01:27:07.830 –> 01:27:09.150
Jeff Louella: When it’s cheaper.

1042
01:27:10.620 –> 01:27:11.040
Angela Bergmann: But they

1043
01:27:11.070 –> 01:27:14.940
Jeff Louella: They have that fear, then no one would come to the site, then if they knew it was more money than

1044
01:27:15.390 –> 01:27:16.260
Jacob Stoops: What I’m

1045
01:27:17.460 –> 01:27:20.070
Jacob Stoops: What do you guys think is the future of structured data.

1046
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:40.440
Angela Bergmann: I think rejected point out, like the tada further time. Yeah. So having it not just be Information Center. Google is being able to leverage that in other ways at a calendar invite

1047
01:27:40.950 –> 01:27:56.370
Angela Bergmann: You know load something add something to an app like I think further leveraging of it because it’s structured data format it in a way that makes it easy to process into things. So how can we use that better.

1048
01:27:57.900 –> 01:27:58.110
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1049
01:27:58.260 –> 01:27:59.340
Jeff Louella: I agree. That’s where I

1050
01:27:59.340 –> 01:28:01.170
Jeff Louella: Think, and I see

1051
01:28:01.230 –> 01:28:06.960
Jeff Louella: You know, I know, wants to schema.org there’s a million like a million, but they keep growing the

1052
01:28:07.350 –> 01:28:08.340
Jeff Louella: Other the other does it

1053
01:28:08.700 –> 01:28:10.080
Jeff Louella: Because everything right, it’s

1054
01:28:10.200 –> 01:28:15.660
Jeff Louella: Gonna look at a coffee Cal Poly. We might have coffee cup schema. One day when there’s this different sub levels because you can

1055
01:28:15.660 –> 01:28:16.560
Jeff Louella: Keep adding like

1056
01:28:16.920 –> 01:28:19.590
Jeff Louella: You start off with a thing. And then we break that down and we break that

1057
01:28:19.590 –> 01:28:20.190
Jeff Louella: Down and

1058
01:28:20.220 –> 01:28:20.550
Angela Bergmann: Yeah.

1059
01:28:21.480 –> 01:28:22.920
Jeff Louella: To the point where we can’t

1060
01:28:23.400 –> 01:28:29.160
Jeff Louella: Can we all we can meet over structured data, probably, but at the same time.

1061
01:28:29.250 –> 01:28:30.570
Angela Bergmann: It’s structure, I think.

1062
01:28:31.140 –> 01:28:44.250
Jeff Louella: The goal of structured data is off of the web also so or not. So often the web, but off of like your web page and into apps and things like that were made, just like sharing easy. I kind of think of it as like

1063
01:28:44.970 –> 01:28:53.460
Jeff Louella: Elon Musk open sourced the electrical system for Tesla because he knows that if there’s 17 different plugins to plug in

1064
01:28:54.120 –> 01:29:07.890
Jeff Louella: That know like if I had a Ford electric car, you had a Chevy and then someone wasn’t a Tesla, we could interchange our electrical plugs, there would be no electric cars will not take off because everyone is the same gas tank.

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01:29:07.920 –> 01:29:09.090
Right, so there are

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Jeff Louella: You know the structure to that that and reason why there’s a certain sizes and components to it so

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Jeff Louella: If I have an app, it’d be awesome to be able to, like, I know my app can interface with your app, because we use similar structures in our data.

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01:29:23.010 –> 01:29:33.720
Jeff Louella: I can send you my map results. I can switch between being and someone else because and Google Maps, because they use the same structure in a structured data, I think.

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01:29:34.140 –> 01:29:36.450
Angela Bergmann: That helps machine, talk to the machine.

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01:29:36.960 –> 01:29:41.190
Jeff Louella: And at the end of the day, it’s you know, it’s just trying to figure it out and makes everything more

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01:29:41.760 –> 01:29:45.420
Angela Bergmann: And that’s the way I hope it goes, because I

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Jeff Louella: Really feel as kind of a nerd who like to develop and he likes to interface with other systems. I don’t want to have to have an Excel document in between and

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Jeff Louella: Transform all my data.

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Jeff Louella: You know, and to then

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Jeff Louella: Push it off to somewhere else, which I do a lot of my reporting now. But, you know, I’d love to be able to have, like, you know what is in Google Analytics, right, like a session in Adobe analytics is not what especially means in Google Analytics or a user. And there’s all these different

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Angela Bergmann: Terms.

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Jeff Louella: Of having like a structure between them all would actually be awesome, because then we can compare apples to apples and not apples to bananas, let’s let’s

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Jacob Stoops: So, Angela, where can people find you.

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Angela Bergmann: Twitter.

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Angela Bergmann: Twitter. I’m at Red kitten.

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Angela Bergmann: That’s probably the best place to find me.

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01:30:38.070 –> 01:30:40.350
Angela Bergmann: That is a great handle. Where does that handle come

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01:30:40.350 –> 01:30:40.680
From

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Angela Bergmann: Um, that was actually my original like one of my original domain was red kittens on and Yun was where I was blogging and it just kind of stuck.

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01:30:53.430 –> 01:30:59.010
Angela Bergmann: I even use it like in World of Warcraft. So that’s my my card plate is red pitney

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01:31:01.320 –> 01:31:03.750
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, mine’s just Jacob stoops.com I guess I need to

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01:31:03.750 –> 01:31:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Be or Jacob stoops just as Jacob stoops I guess I just in years. Jeff is just at Jeff, Luella I guess we need to get more creative.

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01:31:11.340 –> 01:31:17.880
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a time in my life where I had like fun handles, and then I became like a ship poster.

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01:31:19.470 –> 01:31:27.780
Jeff Louella: Looks like you know if I use my real name. It really makes me think about that. I’m going to post because when I didn’t have my real name on there like starting flame wars.

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So,

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01:31:30.450 –> 01:31:32.190
Jeff Louella: Like way happier using my real name.

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01:31:32.250 –> 01:31:35.280
Jacob Stoops: Next episode is just all about Jeff’s burner accounts.

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01:31:37.920 –> 01:31:44.880
Angela Bergmann: My Twitter does have my real name on it though. So I don’t know, getting away. Yeah, there is no anyways.

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01:31:44.970 –> 01:31:52.290
Jacob Stoops: Um, thank you so much for for coming on. We really. We really appreciate it and go browns.

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01:31:53.430 –> 01:31:54.540
Angela Bergmann: Yeah, go, go.

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Angela Bergmann: Bye everybody.

#30: Alicia “AK” Anderson

Episode Summary

Today we talk with Alicia “AK” Anderson, former Associate Director of SEO at WebMD, former head of SEO at Hipcamp, and currently a freelance SEO.

We discuss:

  • Her path to SEO
  • Her pursuit of a PHD in mythological studies
  • SEO news including page speed
  • Google’s acquisition of Fitbit
  • The importance of SEO education
  • What makes a good SEO teacher

And much more.

Episode Transcript

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Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are back for the 30th episode of the page to podcast we somehow have managed to stumble our way to 30 episodes. I am here with Jeff.

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Louella.

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Who we forgot to introduce last time. And I want to make that mistake again. And we are also here with Alicia AK Anderson. How you doing, Alicia.

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doing really well.

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And Alicia is right now she’s a contractor, but she’s a former head of SEO at hip camp as well as an Associate Director of Web MD. So a lot of really, really amazing experience coming from from Alicia side.

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Thank you for having me today.

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You’re welcome. So I here by reading your Twitter bio that you are a storyteller. So tell me a story, tell me a story. How did you get into SEO. Tell me about yourself. Let the listeners know who are you

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So I’m in the early to mid, mid 2000s.

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I was working for both south, which if you don’t live in the South. It was originally take it was taken over by at AMP t

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And in that time period.

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I was a billing manager and I was doing data analysis sequel database queries and dealing with data at a very minute dollars and cents level to the point where the

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Big project I did was how to round or truncate your minutes into dollars it’s. It was ridiculous. Lee detailed um I made the career decision that I wanted to work more in Word and Excel. I said, I want to write. I want to do something that’s creative, I’m tired of all this data, which is

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Because I then ended up in SEO.

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But where I ended up going with that urge was this was in the the the era of the bygone days of pre Panda of content firms and you could write content on the internet and make like a pittance for any number of sites and it was how I went about gaining work experience in SEO.

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Because what I was able to do was create web content and then track how it performed

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And one of the specific sites actually had SEO training and SEO experts working for them in like the forums and stuff like that.

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And they actually taught us how to do keyword research how to track our progress, how to use keyword information for content strategy like basic keyword information that I’m in 2007 was kind of avant garde and I discovered this whole realm of SEO as a job.

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At that time, the at AMP T takeover happened at both south, which is essentially the Jetsons taking over the Flint, or the Flintstones taking over the Jetsons is is how I would put that

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I did not want to go to the Stone Age and so

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I took a package I left. And with that extra money I freelanced and basically worked my way as a web copywriter into learning SEO from agencies.

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And then I started working in house from there. I’ve been working in house for. So I’ve been in SEO for 12 years going on 13 years which I’ve seen everything from hummingbird to like I’ve seen all the big updates.

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Which is kind of insane. And I actually focused on global SEO really early in my career, which is how I ended up at Web MD, because they needed somebody who understood global SEO for their UK Cobra and

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I was at weapon D for six years, and

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Then I actually got a chronic illness and couldn’t handle the stress and couldn’t handle like the massive amount of work that was

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That was happening there. And so I scaled back and I took on the job at hip camp as their head of SEO for a year and a half, as a remote job, which was fantastic. And it was exactly what I needed.

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At the same time, because I don’t know how to like set limits. I, I also started grad school.

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And so I was doing grad school and hip camp for a couple of years, and now I’m contracting and doing grad school. At the same time, I’ve earned my masters. I’m now in the PhD program again because I don’t know how to say slow down.

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And yeah, I’m contracting and

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Enjoying it I’m I have about a dozen clients right now. Some through an agency that I work with, and some through personal contacts.

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And it’s been really, really interesting.

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We were talking earlier via email about my passions and what I found is that in the last three or four years or so, I’ve really found a passion for training and teaching SEO and using training and teaching to get buy in with stakeholders and to

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You know, create SEO as part of the DNA of a bit of a business, instead of just kind of an afterthought.

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So let me ask you something. And I’ve got a lot of there’s a lot there. The

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Question that I have, um, I do. First one to ask about mythological studies.

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You’re, you’re getting a PhD in mythological studies. So for those people, myself included, that don’t know what that means, explain it to us.

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So, um, my program is the is of the lineage, the academic lineage of Joseph Campbell.

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Um, which is a concept of comparative mythology cross cultural comparisons of mythologies, as well as

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Kind of the underpinnings of what makes this culture way over here and that culture way over there have very similar myths.

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And understanding did the myth just travel and they’re telling the same myth or did it arise separately, and this is a part of the human condition and a part of our psychology

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So that’s essentially what mythological studies is it’s a global cross cultural psychological look at

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At myth.

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So I find it fascinating that in SEO is studying myths and mythological logical stuff. Um,

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I guess I have to ask, what’s the biggest SEO myth, you’ve come across

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Um,

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Biggest SEO Miss I’ve come across. Honestly, I have an entire shelf that is nothing about but that crossover like technology as symptom and dream is the book I’m staring at an internet dreams, um,

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I think that

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As Google is attempting to meet human needs by using AI and an algorithmic answers, they’re attempting to

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mimic human behavior and understand and breakdown human behavior online. And one of the myths that I think is happening is that the whole like

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You know, SEO and UX side where people are saying, um, you know, if you solve for you actual software SEO hundred percent of the time, I believe that that’s

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That’s like kind of my answer of if it comes down to doing this for the user doing this for us to do it for the user. But at the same time, I feel like Google is not necessarily all the way there yet. And sometimes you really do have to spoon feed the Googlebot just a little bit.

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Because solving for you. X 100% still isn’t going to get you there.

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At the same time, I do think that Google is really trying to emulate the human response. And so isn’t

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It doesn’t make sense to speak to it as if it’s a robot either. So it’s like you’re talking with, you know, an Android or data from Star Trek The Next Generation or something that has like somewhere in the middle.

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Yeah, I think this, it’s, it’s interesting. We

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Live in an interesting time in space within within SEO. Right now we are on one side. Things are getting really, really advanced in terms of Google and other search engines, but mostly Google

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Their use of AI and their ability to render websites to understand the difference between very similar similar queries. And then on the other side we’ve got

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Sites that I get. I don’t know. Jeff, you tell you tell me, and Alicia. You tell me. Like I feel like a lot of the stuff I run up against when I’m helping clients is still incredibly, incredibly, incredibly basic. Like we’re helping them like learn how to walk when

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Over here you know Google is, is, you know, very focused on to use an analogy I guess running. They’re focused on on running when there are many, many websites out there that are still just struggling to walk. And one of the things that I see very often is

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Things as simple as, like, your UX can be really, really great. And you can have a beautiful website.

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That consumers like but if you’re missing the content that people search for

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You don’t have a lot of chance to be successful, like your site can be technically, technically well optimized. I work

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With a client that is that is exactly this way. They’ve got a really good brand. A really technically well optimized site.

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But there. They have been missing some key content and until they’ve added that key content. They’ve been like we don’t we don’t get it. Why is an SEO quote unquote working well, sometimes in order to rank for something you have to have a page for it. I know, it’s crazy.

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But if you’re

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If you’re designing for customers most customers don’t like to read. I mean, if you

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If you’re looking for a research paper. Yes. But when you’re looking at a product. I think it’s like you want a couple points about it. And I think most of the time you’re probably reading reviews but

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But at the same time it’s it’s interesting because to design folks don’t like to put lots of words on the pages because again, people don’t be bogged down with all this content though Google needs it to read. So I think it is one of those

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Thought, I’m not gonna say a battle. It’s really becoming everyone get on the same page, like we have goals. We need to have traffic.

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These are some things that Google needs at the same time we have, you know, design needs right I again. If it was up to SEO is I think most of our websites will look like Wikipedia.

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Which is because it were like a great here’s a whole bunch of content. So we need to have that that balance there so

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Yeah, and I find with like B to C customers specifically right now. What I’m bumping up against is the, what is it,

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So many of the head terms the ranking is educational. It’s a what is query. It’s an informational query. And that’s where you want that Wikipedia page that is like

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A big long list of all the things you ever needed to know about this thing.

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And the issue is that most of these companies that are B to C are going that their decision makers and the people who are searching for them.

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Are people who already know what it is. And so to convince them that they need a, what is it page.

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In order to round out their content portfolio when their clients and customers and the people who are landing on their site already know what it is it that’s that balance that’s that, like, okay, but you kinda still need a, what is it page.

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Very high funnel low conversion stuff introduce her content. I like to call it, but not necessarily transactional

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Hi. Well, and that. And the thing is is that that’s not that’s not where their their their customer is um but it’s where the search traffic is so it’s a very

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It’s, it’s absolutely something I bumped into constantly

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Yeah, I see that type of content. And when I’m when I’m trying to sell it. I try to sell it obviously for the the

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That’s where the search traffic is. And the question I get is, Do I even want to rank for this. And for me, like, for the most part, the question is yes because you’re potentially

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You know, running exposing your brand to a lot of different consumers and maybe one or maybe two or maybe three of those consumers will later on down the line. Maybe not immediately.

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Turn into customers because they weren’t aware of your brand before and now they are because they’ve read that piece of content but part is everybody that gets that piece of content going to be a converter. No.

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I think that there’s a there’s definitely a brand element. There’s a marketing element to the brand there. The other element of that that I see and I see it even more now is

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Contextual ality we each site has an about notice it has a context. And what I find is that

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You have to have that. What is it, and you have to have that that established expertise in your field.

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For that contextual reality because ranking well for the, what is it, even if those visitors aren’t converting will help you rank well for the things that the, what is it is linking to

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Yeah, and so I find that contextual ality tends to be more of a play there as well. And a lot of those spaces, especially when it’s a really complicated thing.

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You know, we’re the experts in this 50 word saying, it’s like, Okay, well, we need a, what is it that

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I think this whole discussion really comprises and I hate this word, but the at expertise authority trust. Yeah, I think that building that full portfolio is all about establishing UT which I really hate that I’m using a buzzword but i but i am i’m

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Going to go back. I do want to go back because I we got way down in the weeds and that’s cool. I love getting in the weeds, like my favorite thing to do.

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But you mentioned stress and I think on the agency side like it’s a big giant ball of stress. Stress all the time. Especially now in the holiday in the holiday season.

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Um, I also find it ironic that you were working at Web MD, when you were having this stress in the in the in the in kind of the medical condition that you

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That you could that you mentioned. So I guess. Talk to me about the process of what was working at Web MD, like, and I’m just also thinking about other people that might be going through this. How did that stress kind of come up for you and how did you deal with it.

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The stress was absolutely um

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You know, a joint a joint effort in terms of my own inability to set limits and

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The demands of the company.

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You know, I work, I work a good bet on the agency side right now and I find the stress levels, very different.

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I find the stress the words very different

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On the in house side. What I find it’s funny you said the irony about working at Web MD and that that I was having health problems because of it.

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In psychological terms every basically the concept is every time you invoke one thing you also invoke its opposite. So Web MD invokes health and also invokes ill health and and i think that that’s that’s part of what happens in the office culture.

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You have to really have super strong boundaries and really set limits in any in office environment. I’ve worked in so many corporations, where the the corporation will eat you alive if you let it

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And and i think that’s true of any employer these days with, you know, the way that our world works.

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And I believe that part of it is about is about that setting of limits.

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One of the issues that I bumped into was adequate resource planning.

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Because I was

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The, the cycle of hiring help is so long. It’s such a long ramp and Jeff knows this. The Atlanta market is we’ve got kind of a weird mix of people who have SEO experience. And so getting the right person to hire in the Atlanta market is is tricky as well.

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So that long rep of resource getting the right person in often happens, eight months after the project started.

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And then you’ve got to train them and they have a six month ramp up and now the project is in full swing. And you’re like, good, allow me to overwhelm you.

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And I think that that honestly my own you know that just the resource planning of understanding where the business was going so quickly and then having that kind of lead time for resource planning was a big part of it.

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Another big part of it for me specifically was there’s a battle. I’m especially with a publicly traded company Wendy was taken over and is now privately owned

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In since I left, but at the time it was it was beholden to the quarterly shareholder reviews and it was a publicly traded company and I find with publicly traded companies that that quarterly shareholder review. We’ve gotta show what we’re doing to show our value and show our growth.

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Every single time is actually incredibly toxic. Um, the, the stock, the stock shareholder kind of market of of growth for growth’s sake.

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Always be growing is is not sustainable.

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That’s why you have mergers and acquisitions. That’s why you have like all of these other things. And I feel like it’s cancerous.

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Growth for growth’s sake, without really carefully growing where you want to grow is is the definition of cancer, um, which again haha Web MD.

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Funny side note, just so you know.

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While I was there.

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They. It was a I’m going to say this publicly and I’m far enough gone. They can’t hurt me. Um,

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It was a massive PR fail on their behalf on their behalf, because they did not own the memes um they redid the symptom checker symptom checker 2.0 happened while I was there, and prior to symptom checker 2.0 the symptom checker when you plugged in your stuff with alpha, alpha baptized

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So cancer came above everything because it was at the top of the freaking alphabet.

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Now it’s done by prevalence and now you’re can get common cold and flu above cancer because it’s done by prevalence

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And so they recreated symptom checker to make it so that cancer wasn’t at the top of everything. And this is like seven years ago and they never like owned it and said, hey, you’re not gonna have cancer anymore.

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They never like played with it and said, this is what we can do, like we sometimes use checker 2.0 it’s not alphabetical anymore. Like for me as as like an internet marketer. I’m like, oh, that’s such a loss like it’s such a waste to not just own the funny and go with it.

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But anyway, that

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The, the growth for growth’s sake model is really, really hard for any SEO team.

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Because first of all, SEO takes time. A lot of our efforts. It’s like, yeah, you’ll see that effort in three quarters. So what have you been doing this month. Well, what I did a year ago or what so and so screwed up two years ago.

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So you see that growth pattern for for those traded companies can be the source of so much stress when it’s unrealistic.

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And then it comes down to messaging and it comes down to. Can your C suite hear those messages. Can you adjust what you’re saying, how do you talk about those things like that that becomes a whole nother another bollocks. I’m

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Getting out of that pattern for me was really, really important in terms of stress, just getting out of the not having enough help in the right time.

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And getting out of the pattern of the growth for growth’s sake was really, really important. Um, I, I used to prefer in house because I liked seeing the long term results and right now I’m really enjoying agency, because I can go here’s all of the things that you need to fix.

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And I don’t have to wait for that. But we’re not growing every quarter.

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Which is actually quite a relief, honestly.

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Yeah, I mean, it can be a relief I I do sometimes want to see things all the way through to the end and on the agency side if the clients don’t necessarily see that growth or at least are aligned with your vision of when the growth will happen.

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Have plenty of clients that have been like

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You know, cut your contract because we haven’t seen the growth. We wanted to see. So like stressful on the agency side but

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If you’re aligned with the client and and i think i think is the best side of things in the agency world just because

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When you get to do a whole bunch of different like you get problems thrown at you all the time and you get to, you know, try to solve those problems, which is great.

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But sometimes I do feel like I walk on eggshells a lot with clients because one. You don’t want to call someone else’s baby ugly.

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Know, even if they’re paying you for it. And I’ve worked at some large agencies where we made the ugly baby and and I gotta then tell them that our team. We made the ugly baby.

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It is interesting that in that approach to so

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You guys are touching on kind of an interesting point that I feel like we do with all the time. So, like, I’m just going to give a little bit of kind of a case in point. So I’ve got two clients, one of which

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I don’t want to give away too much information, but I’ll say client a we’ve been working with for a while, often on by their choice and their traffic because of our recommendations is growing wildly, but because they they

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Don’t even know exactly what like can’t see it, like they can see their traffic growing wildly, but I think that there’s

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A belief that maybe it wasn’t due to us or our recommendations or all of that. So there’s that.

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On one side, and on the other side. There’s another client where we’ve had a very successful year and we’ve overcome a lot of challenges and their team is very, very small.

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But we’ve made progress, but it’s not yet the type of progress that has produced tangible results from a traffic standpoint, it’s a lot of

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Coming out of nowhere and getting right on the cusp of doing great things because you were nowhere before and the next phase is going to be moving from being on the cusp to

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Pushing it into a position where the tangible results will start to show it’s a lot of stuff happening below the surface.

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And I have a great relationship with that client and like there’s no doubt that they’re going to continue to work with us and it’s just the juxtaposition client a

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Doesn’t really want to work with us and they’re getting great results client be results aren’t there yet loves working with us. We have a great relationship. And it’s just like

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This world in that we live in is is insane. And sometimes the the thing that you think should be true is not always true. And it leaves me kind of with the question, how do you

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Best come in this deviates from the stress question, but how do you put in this actually does stress me out and keep me up at night. How do you do a good job of messaging.

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The real story of what’s actually going on when the C suite only looks at vanity metrics and sometimes doesn’t even look at that.

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Or when the C suite doesn’t know the full story and is coming to you with whatever they believe to be the truth, whether it is or not, like, how do you deal with that. How do you get them to see the light. How do you build that build that dam and build that relationship.

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Um,

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So one thing that just that is a little bit tan gentle about your question or the about your what you were saying is that the client that you’ve got that you’ve got that great relationship that is not showing results yet.

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I have one like that, that I worked with for six months and what I do because this was my personal client, not an agency thing.

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Every six months I checked, I go back into all of their metrics and check everything and send them an update and go, this is what you’re working on. This is what you should do next, like, and I do it for free.

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You know, because they can hire me to help them with those action items but it allows me to, you know, a little bit selfishly, look at the data and go. Hi worked

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I get that little that little boost of dope. I mean, um, but also it’s a great way to to kind of resell to clients that do work well with you in that kind of agency world.

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In terms of getting C suite on board when they only look at vanity metrics.

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So,

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That’s a combination of two things. One is you give them the fucking vanity metrics.

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Um,

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And

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If you can get other stuff that really has to happen in order to give them those vanity metrics, great. Um, one of the things that I’ve spoken about on multiple occasions is translate your, your goals into their monopoly money.

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Like, do a currency conversion if their vanity metric is something you don’t care about, but you can currency convert your metric into there’s do it.

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And I say to do this. This is what I did across departments, I did this across clients, um,

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If this department really only cares about lead gen and you know this one specific form, then I am going to use approximations and percentages and ratios to say

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If you let me do this project. It’s going to give you five lead gen forums on this forum for every you know widget. We move or whatever, I’m

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Just kind of backing into those metrics that even if they’re a little nonsensical just using percentages to keep like getting there. Um, the other thing about the vanity metrics. I guy. I have a lot of clients that want to rank for kind of

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Ridiculous.

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keywords that are not that are important to their marketers, but our sales team, but are not important like they’ve got 50 searches a month or something like like less than that. And you’re like, really. Okay, let’s go spend all our time on that.

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And honestly, the way that I would do that is looking for those wind winds of, okay, we’re going to try to rank for this thing, they really want to rank for that is kind of ridiculous.

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And we’re going to simultaneously make these lesson learned worked over here where it actually is going to move the needle, um,

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Sometimes it is about education. Sometimes it is about teaching the C suite what’s going on. Um, I’ve done more than one high level to four slide long presentations that are. This is what’s happening here are the numbers. This is why I’m telling you this is what matters.

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Because sometimes it is your job to change the focus. Sometimes it is your job to educate and and that’s that’s super challenging. It’s super challenging to

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Take somebody that has the like my nudist amount of attention span and you’ve got their, their attention for like five minutes and you’ve got to go. What you think matters. Doesn’t matter. Here’s what matters in that five minutes. And that’s I’m

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Very, very, very difficult. And I think that’s where the, the difference between an SEO specialist and an SEO manager comes in.

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People with management skills and people who are at the management level are going to be able to drill down a bit more rapidly in that way.

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Yeah, I always say

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Finding the things to fix is it’s not the difficult part getting things implemented is the difficult part and the even more difficult part is proving your, your value when, in some cases it’s it’s not clear, or telling your story and I feel like

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Talking to executives and sea levels.

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Or VP of whatever higher ups leadership within, within a company is something that like

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I don’t feel like anyone starts off as a natural at doing doing that. I think it takes a while, and I find myself even kind of

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Deeper into the into the experience side of things like I’ve been doing this for a long time. And there are times when I still just

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Don’t know what I need to say to make them understand it. It almost becomes a bit of a psychological

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exercise where you have to play out different scenarios and put yourself in their shoes and try to predict what they want to hear from you. That will turn them in the way that you need them to be to be turning so

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My hack for that. Yeah, I was, uh, because I always I was known for writing emails that were way too long. I was known for writing these like novel emails and you guys are both laughing and I know that you you totally understand.

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Those

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Those like super, super long emails. So, I will write that email with all of the because this and here’s the data for that. And here’s this and here’s that and then I will write the TL Dr.

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And put that at the top like because we’re used to doing that right that’s like part of our world is doing the TL Dr. Right. Then I will take that entire email and save it to word

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And send the executive only the TL Dr.

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And that tends to be exactly what you needed to say and then often they’re like, do you have further data about blah, blah, blah. And you’re like, Yes, I do.

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Because you’ve already done all that homework.

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That’s great approach.

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So Jeff, I wanna, I want to put a pause on this and then I want to get back into kind of the teaching aspect, what’s in the news.

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Cool. So one of the big things.

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Will be okay. It’s one of the big things we have this week is Google. I mean, Google is really been focusing on Page Speed, right, so last week and probably the week before we talked about PHP going into Google Search Console.

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But now they’re actually looking to build badging into Chrome to let people know that sites are slower or faster than you know the average bear, I guess.

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So it’s, it’s interesting because, again, I’m always trying to push my clients to be faster. And this is another approach that Google is taking to say

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Hey, your sites aren’t fast enough. Now we’re going to alert the world just like to do with HTTPS and you’re not secure

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So again, another thing I can show my clients to say like, this is really serious. This time I know before it said it was serious. And then now like but you know nothing changed. Now that you know it.

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Really seriously and

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That was really serious because

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Now you’re going to get like a red X next year site or something that says that you’re slow so

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I really do think that PHP is important. And I’m kind of running a study now trying to look at a whole bunch of e commerce sites and where they are in page beads

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Those sometimes it’s hard to get those metrics. Right. So I hope that when Google get tell somebody that their site is slow that they actually get the right metrics there because

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I am noticing about out of 150 e comm retailers that I’m looking at there are about 20 of them that are giving me inconsistent data inside of Google page speed insights

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Using their API. Sometimes I’ll get 100 and I’m like, why is this like giving me 100 right now. And that’s because they got a page that was blank.

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And like, hey, we have no JavaScript this page must be fast. But then I rerun it. And then I get a 36 so I am just hoping that we get those metrics down before we actually start putting people on blast.

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I have a question for you guys about page speed. This is a actually something that’s come up multiple times.

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You know, the whole is it important, is it really important, is it really, really important. Now, however, no site. I’ve been on has cracked the nut of actually having a fast site that does all the things they want it to do.

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Um, my question for you guys is one of the things that I’ve been feeling for a while, is that it really depends on the competition.

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That it that benchmarking the Page Speed across the competition is more valuable if everybody in your competition is a 35 and you have a 40, you’re probably okay.

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Um, if everybody in your competition has a 75 and you have a 30 you need to pay attention to it. Right. Um, that’s been my approach. More recently, what do you guys think in terms of the fact that nobody’s going to have a perfect score.

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Right, so that’s actually part of the reason I’m kind of putting together this little study that I hope to have

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One, it’s holiday season. Everyone thinks about e commerce, but so many of my e commerce clients deal with kind of go that route. Right. I

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I run a report. And I’m like, you got a 45, you know, we can, we should be at least by the 80s and then I run it against their six competitors and they’re doing better than their six competitors, so

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And e commerce is also tough right because you have lots of images and if you know for we’re designing for customers. Customers don’t want 10 products on a page.

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You know, they want to have more because they don’t want to have to click keep clicking next. So it’s one of those where I think industry specific. I also think it’s his competition specific

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Though I have found a couple that were, you know, put one out there IKEA. They’re getting like close to 100 all around with their reports and I gotta dig a little bit deeper into them. Like, why are they doing that.

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But it’s if they seem to have really great scores. While some other ones like I was kind of laughing, but like dollar tree gets a one and it’s like $1 so so it’s kind of a it’s ironic there.

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But in general, like

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I think the industry somewhere in the middle right you have those outliers, but for the most part, everyone’s getting between a 40 and 60 or something like that, where no one’s crushing it. Um,

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But yeah, I think, again, as a consultant. We’re always like, we want to be the top of the bunch, where we get the benefits of it.

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Right before everyone put scheme on their website, you had that big benefit of getting some, you know, stars in your reviews.

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Now everyone’s doing it and Google’s cutting it back because they can’t have everybody have an enhanced listing right so

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It’s one of those things where I think getting ahead of it is one great for your customers, but you’re not even thinking about rankings thinking about like your customer experience.

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You know that it’s really great that way. But on top of that. Now it’s a ranking factor and Google’s really trying to

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Push that inside of the search, you know, this is one of the ways doing it by having it again. It’s just in Chromium right now, but they’re one of those things like once it gets pushed live. You’re just like could be put on blast. So watch out balladry

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I’ve been the thing I’ve dealt with and I’ve been like fighting this uphill battle for years and I don’t know how many more hints

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Google can possibly give to say that it is important. I mean, they’ve made it even a ranking factor, and now it’s obviously not a big ranking factor, but it’s a factor nonetheless.

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I just don’t know how many more bones, they can continue to throw before people decide

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Or finally come to the realization that it’s that it’s actually important and take it seriously of the thing that I even still, to this day, run into is just a high level of skepticism.

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And when you go to a client and say, Hey, your page is getting like a 40 on mobile page speed, they really look at me and it’s almost like a. So, what

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What does that really mean. Or where was that test from because everybody knows Google uses a lot of lab.

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In industry industry data. So like, you don’t get to specify like device type or location that you’re testing from like you can with a webpage test and even with that they’re, they’re still skeptical.

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So there’s for whatever reason a lot of skepticism. I will say that in the few times that I’ve been able to convince

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Clients that this is the right thing to do, it came down to money and putting the putting the money like very clearly on the table and showing them how much money they were losing by not improving. There’s any number of studies that talk about the effect of the

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Inverse relationship between load time and conversion rate in revenue, the higher your load time goes the worst of the worst your conversion rate is and the less revenue that you get in the door. And I remember like

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clear as day sitting in a meeting with a huge hospitality client at another agency in telling them, and even when I made these numbers up. I felt like

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These are ridiculous numbers. But then I realized like the scale know this could actually be this could actually be right.

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I told them, like, Hey, your conversion rate is here and this is how much revenue you get from that.

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I think by increasing your speed, your conversion rate could be here and should be here and this is how much revenue you would gain and it was in the realm of millions and they laughed me out of the room and didn’t take me seriously. And I was like I was so mad. Let’s stop serious

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But then they partnered with a

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vendor who specializes in speed and helping people fix speed because they finally started to think, maybe there’s something to this. And the vendor who does this all the time for a living.

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Actually said that estimate was actually low, it’s worth more. And finally, they started taking little old me seriously and a lot of other recommendations went through a lot of

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You know way easier. But it was it was nice vindication but for whatever reason, like I just don’t get it. People don’t take this seriously, it’s really hard. Don’t get me wrong, speed is really hard, really complex, but like, people don’t take it seriously and I don’t get why I

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Think that you just nailed it on the head, that it’s really hard. It’s resource allocation and you have. So going back to my hip camp days.

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We had an engineering team of, you know, between six and 10 engineers at any time focusing on any number of projects and to focus on Page Speed would take away focuses on

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You know, fixing the shopping cart or the mobile site or this part or that part or, you know, this new thing that we’re creating

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And that conversion into money, putting it in the in the monopoly money that they care about that conversion into the dollars and cents that they care about still isn’t enough.

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To warrant taking that engineers. Time to because the. The other thing is, is that the engineers are looking at, like they do all the low hanging fruit. Right.

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And then they look at the stuff that’s left

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And they’re like, that’s going to take weeks.

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And the person who’s running that team goes, I can’t have a person tied up for weeks on Page Speed when we don’t know what the ROI is and we don’t know what this is. And, and, like, how was that worth it and and then it just comes down to the ROI equations really

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Having the inverse relationship of conversions absolutely is a huge part of it. Also the bounce rate is a huge part of it. That’s part of what I use to talk about it.

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You know it, but it does often come down to not that they don’t take it seriously, but that they don’t

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That it’s not as serious enough to allocate the resources that it would take to fix it.

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Because it is so site wide it is so endemic. It’s not like you can just fix one page. It’s not like you can just like pull a couple of levers, these are these are like you’ve got a restructure your JavaScript have fun.

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Go over some basics.

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Ages and all of them have giant images.

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Here to have fun. Go fix them all.

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And there are some things you can do that are basic like giant images. I have no one client who continually

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In their main navigation. They have a drop down where they put a little image on the bottom of the drop down and it changes monthly

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And it’s, it’s always two or three megabytes in size, for some reason, right, and it’s on every single page throughout the whole site and once like I put a ticket into the ticketing system, we get a fixed next month designer uploads and other one. That’s it.

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So without training and processes.

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So so valuable.

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Exactly and education is awesome because a lot of times I’m personally dealing with so and so, who works in this department.

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Sometimes it’s the tech team sometime it’s the marketing team. Never. Is it the design and like design team. So it’s like one of those where and designers. Nobody wants to really

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be told what to do. I used to be a developer in SEO is used to come to me with

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Their list of keywords and title tags and I was like, get out, like, you know, I’m trying to solve the world here, you know, by coming up with new fancy ways Dakota site and

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Then, once I moved over to the SEO world. It’s like, oh, you know, I mean, that’s, again, things that we need to do, but there’s so much other things and

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I wrote like a 27 page document for my one client who kept on having those issues just about image optimization in general.

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And I kind of white labeled. It’s like, give it to any client, but at the same time. It’s like this is one thing we can do on our site which shouldn’t take any tech time. It’s just once we learn that process, we can update our images and we’ll save three seconds or whatever that would

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So this is

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I’m glad that there are services like cloud flare and cloud and airy. It’s another one that are beginning to take this out of the designer who doesn’t give

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A shit about page speed or anything. It’s just trying to do their job, which is designed a beautiful sight and a beautiful image, whatever it is.

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There are there are now tools that begin to automate that and I can’t wait for them to become more pervasive within the way people manage that pervasive probably not the right word, but to expand into into the reality of the way that more people manage sites.

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I think that automation and processes, a very big important part of that, however.

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One of the things that I learned was

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That empowering people to help you and to have them help you with your problem solving is probably the most effective thing you could do. So going back to Web MD, you know, it’s a site that is really dependent upon SEO traffic. And so our, our department had

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A little bit of clout and so I was able to kind of swing that very gently into providing an SEO one on one for

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Any new hire coming in the door, because basically the the office where I sat in Midtown Atlanta had about 200 300 people and every single one of those people touched SEO in some way, shape, or form they made my life, good or bad depending on their day.

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And I needed them to know that I needed them to know that they were doing SEO regardless of whether they knew it or not. And so I did a little, um,

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Top Hat And Tails gig for new hires every couple of weeks, I would, I would go in and do this hour. And essentially, the whole hour was where our jobs intersect where you’re doing SEO and I’m

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When to call me and hi I’m friendly. This is what I look like. Say hi to me in the break room. And I’m such an introvert. It was really, really funny that I knew, like the entire company because of this.

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So, um, the way that that shook out was that the managers of these teams would sit in on these on these classes and they would go, Oh, this is amazing. I want this for my entire my entire group.

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And then I would get invited back to do a lunch and learn for the engineering team that was SEO for engineers or a lunch and learn for the design team that was SEO for designers and then I’m in the room with the entire design team for an hour.

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And the, the being able to show them. Okay, file size. This is what the difference in file size does this is what the file type and the way you’re saving it does. Please do this, but this is what file image naming conventions matter.

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You know, and this is why this is what I keep asking you to do.

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This is how this actually integrates and works on the site. And then this is how you’re succeeding.

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The key to all of it was not just this is how you’re making my life difficult but also this is how you’re winning and something you can put in your performance report.

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And I became the go to person for everybody to go, what can I put in my performance report about image sizes and image search and

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You know the improvements in Page Speed and and like I literally had one of the engineers. Buy me a steak dinner because she was like

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You, you just completely got me my bonus because you gave me all the metrics that I had no access to otherwise because I don’t understand how nature works. And this was awesome. Thank you.

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And so that was actually like I became their source for those metrics and so I’d be like okay so image search. This is where your images are showing up in search results and show them the Search Console report.

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And let them see which images are kicking ass and show them the the searches and actually show them what the search results look like or the image carousels where those call outs were

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And suddenly, they’re like, they’re like, oh, this thing I’m doing is actually visible on Google and they can, like, go home and show their kids, you know,

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And believe it or not. They do. They go home and show their wives and husbands that this is what they’re doing, because they’re like, I learned something new today.

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And they get excited about it and then all of a sudden you have buy in, you have cooperation, you have, you have a teamwork that is cohesive

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And then you can say, hey, as far as process improvement goes, Can we, you know, make saving files, the smaller thing as part of your process and then they like you and they’ll do that.

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softer side of evil.

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So this is how, why I’m passionate about training.

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Very important, very important.

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Cool.

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We just beat the shit out of Page Speed

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Yeah, I know. So

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That’s one.

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Thing that I kind of think ties into, you know, with MD, in a way, though it’s not really Web MD, is that

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Google just bought Fitbit and I know with Apple

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And I know with Apple, you know,

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Apple just, you know, with their Apple Watch. They do the ECG stuff and they also now.

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Just released their research apps where you can submit all your data to Apple and just for general research because their goal. And Google has the same goal.

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They want to figure out, health, while it’s happening. And hopefully by wearing a device they can say, like, hey, you’re about to have a heart attack, you better, you know, are all signs are pointing to this better go to a doctor.

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And a little bit of me and there’s like, you know, it’s not right away, of course. But what if

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They can also affected like you went for a run and Google knew you and for running, you get back. And now you have an ad for Gatorade because hey you’re parched, or if you’re

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You know your heart rate is up and it’s nighttime. And, you know, pay. Here’s an ad for melatonin. Maybe you’re having trouble sleeping, because we can track you know

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It, it’s to me. It’s kind of open that up like not that Google is looking at it to be even. I think they are evil. I think they’re really looking to

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To figure out kind of health because anyone who can figure out house like that I think makes a ton of money. But Google is also known for advertising and

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Being able to to pull ads around your Fitbit I think would be an interesting dilemma. When it comes to privacy. I mean, hopefully, that there is privacy laws that prevent this, but

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I think there’s always ways to figure that out. And I think coming from the talking about stress doing everything like this. Like there’s going to be devices and there are devices that track all that and they profit.

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It depends on which letter of the alphabet has access to the data. Yeah, quite frankly, um, interestingly, I

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I won the lottery. Have we had big meetings that my boss and I both had to get somebody had to go to at the same exact time and one was in Mountain View and one was in Minnesota.

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And I won the Mountain View, visit

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Which was was really exciting. My boss had to go to Minnesota and

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I went with a team to the Google offices for this like SHOW AND TELL day between Google and Web MD, they like, did the Web MD cook cupcakes and everything.

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And they were showing us they had people coming in from the various letters of the alphabet to show us the various things that they were doing in the health space everything from the human genome tracking to

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And they wanted to like sell us Big Query and stuff like that before they rolled it out and stuff like that. But, um,

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You know, it was also exploring. Is there a way we could be working on like their image recognition and the symptom checker and like actually exploring. Could we work together in in ways to kind of build some of this information.

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00:53:26.040 –> 00:53:34.680
Because at this point, um, you know, this is three, four years ago. But at that point, the CDC was actually using the symptom checker data to figure out flu outbreaks.

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Because we had faster data because people were plugging in their zip code as they were plugging in flu symptoms and then the CDC was able to go, oh, this is a code is having a flu outbreak.

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And and so it was that kind of real time information that we were talking about with them and quite frankly they had basically everything that you would have on a Fitbit

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On your Android device at that time. This is three, four years ago, they already had that anybody who had an Android phone. The same way that Google Health. I don’t have an Apple Watch, but I still have my steps in my phone whenever it my phone in my pocket.

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00:54:08.700 –> 00:54:16.890
Um, and they had already cracked the code of figuring out, okay, this is a person walking on a sidewalk versus a bicycle versus a car.

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Based on where you were in the map on like GPS data.

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And your rate of speed, like, Oh, you’re on a scooter. We’re not going to count that as a step, they’ll actually be able to tell that based on your accelerometer and where you are, like, on the sidewalk or on the road. These are things that they could do years ago and so

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With Fitbit being monetized my feeling and and that data being available to be monetized. Really, it literally depends on where that that data can go

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Um, HIPAA as a privacy act and PII kind of information that can support that can protect this really honestly can’t protect you all that much. Um, it’s

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It can’t protect you from like ad retargeting and the reason why Web MD won’t do ad retargeting on the stuff that you look up is because it’s incredibly hot button.

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Because can you imagine like do I have an STD or. Am I pregnant. And then, you know, having those ads following you around. That’d be really, really awful.

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When you’re doing a presentation for a client.

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Right, right.

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Or if you’re 15 you know

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True to 15

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And so it’s just one of those like that’s a. It wasn’t that they couldn’t. It wasn’t that they legally, couldn’t it was that they wouldn’t because it was a bad idea.

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And so, um,

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I think Google already could do all of those things if they wanted to, um, and yes, they are absolutely trying to crack the nut. They’re doing a massive study with

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University of California in Berkeley, I think, um, where they have a clinic and they have like this lifetime study of people that they’ve taken every blood test known to man.

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And they go in and do these like massive physicals like all the tests that you like never run like that your doctor just doesn’t bother with unless you have a symptom.

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They run all of them. They also run all their DNA markers. They also run all of this stuff and then they watch and wait and see if they get sick.

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And then if there’s anything from that data that can actually be an earlier prediction of some sort of illness.

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Whether from the genetic side or from like you had a blood test that was off for this vitamin when you were 12 and now you have this, you know, and that kind of thing. And they’re using they’re attempting to use the big data concept to to manage human human health.

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Will they use it to gain financially.

357
00:57:04.260 –> 00:57:12.600
Oh yeah. Um, but I don’t think that’s a right away. I think that depends on who’s where the walls are and within the company.

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I’m looking at statistics in take this for what you will. I’m big data by 2020 is projected to be a $56 billion industry. And if you take that out by 2027

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00:57:30.390 –> 00:57:48.030
It’s expected to almost double 100 and $3 billion. So like when you look at Google and you look at Amazon and and of course my Google Pixel just went off so Google’s listening to this, so they know what I’m doing. And I’m going to turn that off because that’s creepy.

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I don’t want any Amazon result.

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Every time I say seriously Siri was clicking on and I had to like turn off all of her microphone settings for that.

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00:58:00.060 –> 00:58:17.880
So anyways, so Google being creepy that’s and it’s funny. It’s funny that that happened because that’s exactly what I’m worried about and I in. I don’t know if you guys feel this way but like everybody knows one of Google’s big internal credos is don’t be evil.

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And when I

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Don’t forget you.

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You are calling on the equal and opposite.

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00:58:23.940 –> 00:58:25.350
Right. Right. And when I

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00:58:26.190 –> 00:58:36.510
When I when I heard about this acquisition. The, the first thing I thought was they, I don’t know that they necessarily care about Fitbit as a company

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They just want their data. And it’s the same with with Facebook. It’s the same with Amazon is they go through the process of

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Consolidating and acquiring all these companies and it kind of just seems like an arms race between some of these big companies.

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To just acquire as many companies as they can. And I don’t know that they care about the companies.

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But because data is projected to be such a massive, massive industry, the one who holds all the data is the one who can dictate the terms of whatever whatever is going to be in the next

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10 years and I do feel like at some point, like because of the nature of Google Google’s of business and like you said earlier, they’re beholden to shareholders. So they’ve got to turn a profit.

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So You’re damn right, they’re going to use this data to their advantage in probably in some ways that are not in my opinion, probably entirely ethical

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guys feel about that.

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00:59:38.550 –> 00:59:56.100
Well i mean the the trick with big data, um, has been up until recently, very recently, um, the trick has been that very few companies have had the bandwidth and the ability to do anything about it.

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It’s like they could collect all the data they wanted. But it was so much noise because how, how the hell were they going to parse it and understand it and do anything and and pull any learnings out of it.

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01:00:09.120 –> 01:00:23.220
Google, Apple, Amazon are probably, you know, maybe, maybe, Microsoft, um, are the ones that I feel like have the capacity at this point to actually do something with their big data.

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Because you have to have both like the speed and the storage and the ability to actually now analyze it.

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01:00:33.900 –> 01:00:42.150
And I feel like that. You’re right. They are just gathering their Scrooge McDuck in the gold in the house, you know, in the silo full of gold.

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Going, we don’t know what we’re going to do with it, but will swim in it for now and then figure it out later and. And yeah, I totally feel like that’s what they’re doing.

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01:00:50.940 –> 01:00:57.360
I think that’s what’s happening with the echo in the pixels and all of that. Just and Siri, just having the microphones on all the time.

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01:00:57.750 –> 01:01:11.850
Facebook is the only one that’s used his microphone data in a way that people are going, I just talked about that. Now there’s an ad EU and like it. They were just too transparent with it. Like they they literally were just too obvious. Everybody else is like just playing it. Cool.

383
01:01:14.040 –> 01:01:23.820
Yeah, and we are all the lobsters in the pot and all these companies are slowly raising the temperature and we’re all boil before we realize what’s happening exactly

384
01:01:24.540 –> 01:01:31.440
Oh, so let’s um let’s move out of the news to me last topic or to then kind of the deep dive.

385
01:01:32.130 –> 01:01:49.650
I also want to be respectful of respectful of time, but today we wanted to kind of deep dive into teaching Alicia, you have a passion for teaching. So I, I just wanted to dive into like what’s behind your love for teaching others teaching SEO, so on and so forth.

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01:01:50.880 –> 01:02:11.610
Um, well, like I said earlier, I believe that the most important way to get buy in from other parts of the company from clients that have that are resistant to see sweets that are resistant to getting an allocation of resources is education.

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I think that teaching somebody in a way that is accessible to them and that matters to them that speaks their language is the number one way to get what you need to get done. Done.

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01:02:25.440 –> 01:02:33.450
My boss at Web MD actually had a really good thing that he used to say, which was we don’t actually do any SEO. We just convinced everybody else to do it for us.

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Which is pretty accurate because we had like some control over page titles. But like we had to have editorial team right a thing. And then the doctors review it.

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01:02:44.370 –> 01:02:56.430
And then, you know, we could like stare at it and go, Hey, can we change this word, but we didn’t really have a lot of control, all we had to all we had at our disposal was education and

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01:02:57.510 –> 01:03:08.250
You know, buy in from the 200 people in the building with us. And, um, I find that that approach in the agency world actually really helps.

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01:03:09.390 –> 01:03:14.580
Because by giving education buy in and success reports, what you get is

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People who are much more invested, you get clients that are going to renew you get like the you get those clients that even if the results don’t show up.

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01:03:23.430 –> 01:03:26.340
They start seeing like the little wins, because they’re educated

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01:03:26.790 –> 01:03:32.520
They start understanding that this is stuff going on below the surface because they’re educated if they understand the CTR hockey stick

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01:03:32.820 –> 01:03:43.710
And what that graph looks like. And I go, yeah, SEO traffic is low because we’re ranking number nine. And we have a point 3% click Ctr. I get that. Here’s what it looks like when you move up the page.

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01:03:45.000 –> 01:03:54.420
Know, and they understand what that hockey stick looks like when they really can get that, then they’re like, All right, let’s go for number seven. You know, like they get all in and that’s

398
01:03:54.690 –> 01:04:03.180
That buy in is what makes us move the needle. That’s where you get the resource allocation. That’s where you get the people taking you seriously when you go really seriously page to be matters, y’all.

399
01:04:04.620 –> 01:04:13.020
Um, one of the things that I found that helps the most is speaking in terms of metaphors.

400
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I honestly believe that a lot of the issues that come with SEO in our world.

401
01:04:22.080 –> 01:04:30.510
Is that people get stuck in the jargon and they don’t explain it in simple enough terms to make the other person actually understand they’re very

402
01:04:31.170 –> 01:04:41.220
Very concerned about sounding smart and being correct and not worried about the other person truly understanding which I were just were like my teaching hat comes in so much

403
01:04:43.050 –> 01:04:55.050
Because I prefer not to use the jargon, like you were, you were like, I don’t want to use EA t. And I was like, Yeah, exactly. I like I won’t use the at I’ll say the context of your site matters.

404
01:04:56.640 –> 01:05:04.380
And, and, like, I’ll take it all the way back to to like when you were in third grade, and you were learning from context clues. How to Understand a sentence.

405
01:05:04.710 –> 01:05:08.610
And you came across a big word. And then your mom’s like, figure it out and

406
01:05:09.270 –> 01:05:15.840
You know, like I take them to the third grade with that. And then I walk them through understanding context clues as a Google bot.

407
01:05:16.260 –> 01:05:27.990
And then I’m like, now understand good Googlebot you know with hummingbird they became like a a college freshman of understanding context clues and I was like a now they’re like smarter than us.

408
01:05:28.920 –> 01:05:38.370
So, so it’s the idea of contextual reality and then I’m talking in terms of context and not talking about you. I’m really talking about it.

409
01:05:38.910 –> 01:05:50.040
But I’m not using the jargon and I find that using that kind of teaching methodology tends to win people over and get them on board a hell of a lot faster. Um,

410
01:05:51.510 –> 01:05:56.400
Other stuff that I taught. One of the things that is really funny is my people at women D, the

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01:05:57.240 –> 01:06:09.840
Metaphors and phrases that I’ve coined they thought were industry terms, so much so that they didn’t know when somebody else didn’t know it that that was like they were like, oh, clearly you have nothing. You know nothing about SEO.

412
01:06:10.650 –> 01:06:23.490
Because I made it up. I’m the editorial team at Web MD thought that keyword cannibalization as a term was Ag, so I called it sibling rivalry and told them to pick a favorite child.

413
01:06:24.750 –> 01:06:26.520
It’s the same thing.

414
01:06:28.710 –> 01:06:34.950
But they all thought sibling rivalry was totally, totally an SEO term like all over the world.

415
01:06:36.540 –> 01:06:45.270
And so it’s the same concept. I’m like, the kids are arguing in the backseat. You want one of them to be in the front seat. So, you know, shove the other one off into the ditch.

416
01:06:50.070 –> 01:06:56.130
And, and, like, it’s that concept of humor and like visual images where they’re like, okay, I’m going to pick a favorite child.

417
01:06:58.950 –> 01:06:59.700
Great analogy.

418
01:07:00.570 –> 01:07:06.840
And talking in those metaphors, is I find really really helpful.

419
01:07:08.070 –> 01:07:18.510
I use them constantly I’m one of the ones that the that I know a lot of my team is sick of hearing, but it works so well.

420
01:07:19.800 –> 01:07:24.780
Is I talk about 301 redirects are permanent address changes with the US Postal Service.

421
01:07:26.010 –> 01:07:37.440
And how, if you’ve moved around a lot, and done a lot of those through a lot of address changes with the Postal Service, you know that if you do too many and too fast to time, you lose bills and possibly checks.

422
01:07:38.910 –> 01:07:44.460
Like that the Postal Service doesn’t know how to find you, things don’t get forwarded to the right place. Every it’s mayhem.

423
01:07:45.060 –> 01:07:53.070
And so you want to do them with great care great deliberation and probably no more frequently than every six months and

424
01:07:53.910 –> 01:07:57.390
Comparing it to just an address change, which is what it is.

425
01:07:57.720 –> 01:08:07.890
But actually making it something that is real life that they can hold in their hands like you can actually hand somebody that you still US Postal Service envelope and go, this is the thing you’re doing with that 301 redirect.

426
01:08:08.580 –> 01:08:18.540
And if it’s a forum for it just means you moved in didn’t fill this out you know and and you can like really explain server hundred responses by Houston. This wasn’t stupid form from the post office.

427
01:08:20.250 –> 01:08:29.070
But it’s tangible and it’s something they can think about like they can think about bills and checks coming in, they can think about like they have this tangible relatable thing.

428
01:08:29.400 –> 01:08:33.420
They don’t care what the numbers mean. They care what the actual effect is

429
01:08:33.990 –> 01:08:46.920
And so that’s the kind of thing that I use when I’m doing client education as well as when I’m when I’m talking to C suite I use the same like I’m not talking down to a person. I’m just assuming they don’t give a shit what a three or one is

430
01:08:49.050 –> 01:08:50.430
They don’t care.

431
01:08:51.900 –> 01:08:57.480
They don’t care what acronym. I’m talking about. They just want to know what what they need to know

432
01:08:59.430 –> 01:09:09.300
So those are the kinds of metaphors that I really, I get into using and people laugh that I do it, but quite frankly, I find it is incredibly effective

433
01:09:11.130 –> 01:09:15.360
Because you have people who understand. Oh, we don’t want to do too many three ones will lose bills.

434
01:09:19.440 –> 01:09:30.120
Questions question. So there’s like, you know, we don’t learn this in college right SEO in general is not being taught in schools, maybe there’s a class or maybe there’s like some high level stuff but

435
01:09:30.660 –> 01:09:50.370
We’ve learned, like I’ve spent countless and endless nights learning trying adding stuff failing getting stuffed good at reading doing all this stuff to to get to where I’m at and been doing that for the last 10 to 15 years and doing that. And I have a ton of experience doing that.

436
01:09:51.390 –> 01:09:52.680
I mean, you feel there’s like

437
01:09:54.300 –> 01:10:01.680
An ethical responsibility for me to teach the lesson experience. I mean, I feel like I’ve learned a lot of it on my own.

438
01:10:02.130 –> 01:10:07.140
But in general, I mean, is there like that pay it forward mentality that would like

439
01:10:07.800 –> 01:10:14.310
I should be sitting down with more junior telling them everything teaching them everything I’ve learned in there. I was in the SEO world there’s

440
01:10:14.790 –> 01:10:23.520
Are some people who hold on to their knowledge and there’s tons of people who share it and and i think i do share a good bit about it. But I think there’s sometimes I’m just want to say

441
01:10:24.270 –> 01:10:31.290
Go, you know, hey, go build a website and then you’ll learn how to do a redirect or you’ll learn that something’s you know

442
01:10:31.770 –> 01:10:43.020
when something breaks, like you’re just not constantly having to call me even though I do like being in that position where people call me it’s like it’s a weird thing. But I was wondering, like, kind of what you feel about some of that.

443
01:10:43.980 –> 01:10:52.770
So, um, I’ve been exploring the idea of like creating a training program like doing kind of like an online training kind of community.

444
01:10:54.390 –> 01:11:00.750
And part of what I’ve explored with that is, what are the skills that an SEO really needs to know.

445
01:11:01.950 –> 01:11:06.840
I had a kind of an apprentice. We did an apprenticeship. He’s now a journeyman

446
01:11:08.520 –> 01:11:14.250
Is not yet a master, but he’s a journeyman he’s off traveling and doing his own thing with other masters, um,

447
01:11:14.910 –> 01:11:29.130
He and I talked a lot about what skills do you need to know. Yeah. You need to know how to use the tools you need to know which tools to use when and like the basics of what a client would expect. But the real key.

448
01:11:30.660 –> 01:11:33.000
Thing that I think

449
01:11:36.210 –> 01:11:52.290
Needs to be taught in school needs to be taught in college needs to be taught to our junior SEOs and honestly if I’m going to write a nonfiction book about SEO. This is going to be the topic, um, the concept is of information.

450
01:11:53.310 –> 01:12:15.270
validation and understanding and being able to to understand your source and to think skeptically and critically about it. Um, because what you just said was that you went off and you read a whole lot and you test it a whole lot and you tried a whole lot. And that’s how you learned it.

451
01:12:16.440 –> 01:12:23.130
Um, that is information validation selection and and critically thinking about it.

452
01:12:24.180 –> 01:12:44.340
What we have in the age of the Internet is an information overload. But it’s of all varying degrees of validity and value and usefulness and like we’ve got their SEO articles that people are still citing that are from 2008 and it’s like, Oh, honey. No.

453
01:12:46.230 –> 01:12:47.640
And the thing is is that

454
01:12:47.670 –> 01:12:48.210
Cut said

455
01:12:49.950 –> 01:12:50.550
Exactly.

456
01:12:51.810 –> 01:12:59.310
And so how do you, how do you assess that information and its validity, because it could be about a best practice, it could be

457
01:12:59.670 –> 01:13:08.730
Something that legitimately is still correct there are things from 2008 that like you know you should maybe have an old time first screen reader that is a couple of words long about that image.

458
01:13:08.940 –> 01:13:15.060
Like there are things that they were saying in 2008 that were not wrong. Matt Cutts still said stuff that wasn’t wrong.

459
01:13:15.360 –> 01:13:25.830
The problem is applying that critical thinking to. Okay. How is that different today. How does that matter to me. Where does that come in. I feel the same way about reading anything that comes out of Google’s mouth.

460
01:13:27.750 –> 01:13:32.250
Because there’s a layer of, okay, here’s the best practice. This is what they want. This is their desired state.

461
01:13:34.860 –> 01:13:43.380
How does that actually reflected in reality because they can say Page Speed really matters, but does Patriot really matter. I need to know myself.

462
01:13:45.240 –> 01:13:50.070
And how is that reflected in reality because they’re not saying where the money is.

463
01:13:51.900 –> 01:14:01.530
Because if you think about page speed as a factor and they want everybody on AMP. They want everybody to do this. They want everybody on that they want everybody on Google Cloud services so that you can have your page speed and eat it, too.

464
01:14:02.160 –> 01:14:06.930
The thing is, is that the money is in everybody’s data going on AMP.

465
01:14:08.610 –> 01:14:13.050
The money is in everybody hosting on Google because it’ll make their pages faster.

466
01:14:13.860 –> 01:14:29.490
The money is in all of these other things that is not necessarily PHP matters to users. Whoo. We’re not evil and being able to see through those layers and articulate those layers of

467
01:14:30.030 –> 01:14:39.900
Of reality. They’re not wrong PHP does matter users, there is no human being that’s ever gone GEE, I WISH THIS website were slower, but at the same time.

468
01:14:41.010 –> 01:14:50.280
You’ve got to read. You got to read between the lines that Google is a money making apparatus and this is capitalism and you know they’re going to make a buck somehow

469
01:14:51.000 –> 01:14:56.010
And so if if that’s and so it’s like okay so let’s follow that money wherever it goes so

470
01:14:57.000 –> 01:15:05.400
Understanding and being able to tell. Okay. Is this a trusted source of information that’s why one of my SEO interview questions is always, what do you read to stay up to date.

471
01:15:06.300 –> 01:15:13.260
What news. Do you read to stay up to date and SEO because if they tell me a website that I think is complete malarkey. I’m going to be like, hey,

472
01:15:15.570 –> 01:15:26.250
Or I’ll say, okay, why, why are you reading that website. What is it about that website that you find useful because they might be like, oh, it’s complete Malarkey but I read it for the comedy value like i mean

473
01:15:27.480 –> 01:15:29.550
It. There’s, there’s a lot of reasons why.

474
01:15:30.360 –> 01:15:36.660
Somebody might look at those things, or I read it because there’s black hat tips in all of the comments or whatever. I don’t know.

475
01:15:37.140 –> 01:15:45.450
Um, but the thing for me is it’s about information evaluation. And if you’re going to teach somebody anything that’s teaching a man to fish right they’re

476
01:15:46.350 –> 01:15:56.160
Teaching them to because we’re all skeptics every, every SEO that has like an old salty SEO that I know is skeptical and paranoid every last one of us.

477
01:15:59.010 –> 01:16:02.100
The older and salty or we are, the more skeptical and paranoid. We are

478
01:16:03.810 –> 01:16:05.460
We’re experienced, we are

479
01:16:11.520 –> 01:16:17.640
We are skeptical and paranoid and and i think that the worst SEO is a gullible SEO.

480
01:16:19.410 –> 01:16:36.300
And if you feel compelled to train a junior up. I feel like that is the skill to train them. That is the thing that is the thing to hand on to if you want to be Yoda. That’s what you give Luke because he’s gonna run off before you’re done training them anyway.

481
01:16:37.770 –> 01:16:46.860
Buddy and and the thing that my apprentice kept running into was, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know anything about that. I was like, I run into shit. I don’t know how to do every day you learn how to Google it.

482
01:16:48.090 –> 01:16:58.560
You learn how to look up 17 sources on that one topic and like do a complete brain dump and then go. Alright, this is how I’m going to test this. And that’s how you learn.

483
01:16:59.820 –> 01:17:00.480
So I think

484
01:17:00.540 –> 01:17:16.050
The, the overarching question still remains, you’re a person that has a lot of experience. Should you not, maybe not. Can you teach somebody else should you should you, is it worth your time.

485
01:17:16.950 –> 01:17:18.240
I think that depends on the person.

486
01:17:19.500 –> 01:17:22.980
I think it depends on the person, because I’m

487
01:17:25.560 –> 01:17:45.510
Are industry is so rife with weird complex battles and drama and so much of the like old stuff still getting sold and the snake oil still getting done. And I can’t tell you how many people go, oh I hired for somebody for SEO and I got really burned by it.

488
01:17:46.530 –> 01:17:50.040
I mean, I hear that daily and

489
01:17:51.090 –> 01:17:52.380
Is it our

490
01:17:53.970 –> 01:18:01.050
If we are passionate about this as a as a effort as a career as a vocation.

491
01:18:02.070 –> 01:18:10.230
Is it our calling and requirement to build others who are not shoddy snake oil salesman, you know,

492
01:18:11.610 –> 01:18:12.240
Um,

493
01:18:13.950 –> 01:18:23.550
I honestly believe that that’s a, that’s a personal question. Um, I personally was really burned out. I still am kind of burned out on SEO.

494
01:18:23.970 –> 01:18:37.560
And I find that teaching and training is a way for me to tap into a passion and be excited about it and feel like I’m doing good in the world. Instead of just get more Google visitors to this website like it’s

495
01:18:39.570 –> 01:18:41.070
It’s a way that gives me, meaning

496
01:18:42.120 –> 01:18:47.790
And I think that if it’s meaningful for you and it does give you meaning then. Absolutely. You should um

497
01:18:48.930 –> 01:18:50.160
Should everybody

498
01:18:51.780 –> 01:18:52.350
I mean,

499
01:18:56.670 –> 01:18:57.600
Probably not.

500
01:19:00.630 –> 01:19:01.770
I guess. Why would you say that

501
01:19:03.150 –> 01:19:03.690
Um,

502
01:19:07.830 –> 01:19:13.380
I mean, not everybody is going to be a good trainer teacher and they might teach

503
01:19:14.520 –> 01:19:18.480
Not wrong things but they might they might teach things that are

504
01:19:20.100 –> 01:19:21.630
The service to others.

505
01:19:23.190 –> 01:19:33.420
Um, I mean, not everybody set up to be a guru. You know that’s that’s the whole self proclaimed guru thing, isn’t it, I let me be your master like it’s ridiculous.

506
01:19:35.190 –> 01:19:40.380
Not everybody has that has those chops. Um, and, and to know what like

507
01:19:40.740 –> 01:19:48.180
Like I was saying, the difference between teaching a person to fish versus, you know, having them come back to me every time having this apprentice. That was sitting here every day.

508
01:19:48.780 –> 01:20:00.300
Um, I needed him to know it was okay not to know everything, and how to go find that out more than I needed him to know here’s the checklist to fill out for these 10 steps to do this thing.

509
01:20:02.430 –> 01:20:04.260
Um, and so

510
01:20:05.400 –> 01:20:20.190
It depends on where you are. I know that a lot of people really feel like they don’t want anybody else’s bad habits. So they want to like grow their own juniors from the start and be like, oh, I want this like fresh new mind to to mold. As I wish.

511
01:20:20.790 –> 01:20:29.970
Um, and that’s that is absolutely a valid way to go about things. Um, but I do find that you find blind spots in that

512
01:20:31.290 –> 01:20:37.950
Because that that new person doesn’t learn how to think in new ways without you. That’s why an apprentice has to go be a journeyman

513
01:20:38.070 –> 01:20:47.340
Often there, they might be your own blind spots. If you’re molding them to reflect who you are and you have blind spots. Well, if they’re going to have those lines spots as well. I have

514
01:20:48.540 –> 01:20:54.330
To use a Star Wars analogy because it kind of sounds like we’re talking about like six floors here but

515
01:20:56.790 –> 01:21:11.250
If you’re a paddle on and you’re looking at someone as your as your, your Yoda, your, your jet I trainer, how you know if you’re if you’re a person that you’re looking up to is completely full of crap.

516
01:21:12.240 –> 01:21:13.800
Is it a quiet gone or Apollo 13

517
01:21:13.920 –> 01:21:14.430
Right, right.

518
01:21:18.090 –> 01:21:18.690
Um,

519
01:21:20.280 –> 01:21:32.610
Yeah, well that comes down to that question of information. Information articulation and understanding, can you can you tell whether that person is completely full of crap or not.

520
01:21:35.310 –> 01:21:40.590
I’m a lot of people get sucked in by fake gurus all the time.

521
01:21:41.760 –> 01:21:42.450
Um,

522
01:21:43.500 –> 01:21:47.790
I honestly think that a junior SEO.

523
01:21:50.070 –> 01:22:02.190
The clearest way would be to talk to another master you know if if you’re talking to a colleague on chalk, talk to the OB one talk to the, you know, talk to you to talk to some of the other guys and see what’s going on. Um,

524
01:22:03.660 –> 01:22:05.940
And if they go, Oh, you’re studying with him. Hmm.

525
01:22:09.060 –> 01:22:18.480
You know, kind of crowdsource that information, but also I think understanding and and knowing how to look up that information for yourself and double checking it is really important.

526
01:22:20.010 –> 01:22:30.150
Yeah, I think I would I would tend to agree and I feel like I I’m giving you these questions as as playing devil’s advocate, I am one of those people that feel like

527
01:22:31.620 –> 01:22:34.980
The feel like we do as more experienced people have

528
01:22:36.030 –> 01:22:47.130
Maybe not an ethical responsibility, but some sort of responsibility to pay it forward, because there were people that felt responsible to pay it forward to me.

529
01:22:47.850 –> 01:22:58.410
early on in my career. So I think I’m, to some degree, always going to be trying to do that. But I also realize that not everybody’s passionate about that not everybody’s good at that.

530
01:22:59.190 –> 01:23:18.990
Not everybody wants to do that. I will say for myself. The in my career, more so than working with clients or any other thing, the area where I found the most fulfillment was when I was doing the the teaching and helping shape shape young minds, quote, unquote.

531
01:23:20.100 –> 01:23:27.810
Teaching them teaching them how to fish and even more happy for me was watching them then go out and fish and then

532
01:23:28.140 –> 01:23:39.780
Take what they started with me and branch off and develop it even further and then watching them start to teach other people how to fish like you have no idea how amazing for me.

533
01:23:40.860 –> 01:23:52.890
That felt like selfishly in not that i think i’m like super greater or anything, anything like that but it was for me, a real badge of honor to watch people that I

534
01:23:55.020 –> 01:23:59.490
helped to bring up helping to bring other people, other people up.

535
01:24:00.480 –> 01:24:08.280
But I will say that there there are people out there that are just, I remember early on in my career, there was

536
01:24:09.030 –> 01:24:14.760
A certain couple of people early on in my career I had created a blog that I call the agent SEO.

537
01:24:15.570 –> 01:24:29.610
As just kind of a way to well blogging was big at the time and I just, just like this podcast I had a creative itch and I wanted to get it out there. So I would post seo, seo content and they got so mad.

538
01:24:30.150 –> 01:24:36.630
At me for, quote unquote, sharing the industry trade trade secrets and I just never quite

539
01:24:37.320 –> 01:24:47.550
Understood. And these people were supposed to be my quote unquote teachers, and this was talking a lot about data. This was a data point for me that my teachers were

540
01:24:48.000 –> 01:24:56.550
Idiots completed, complete, complete and maybe they weren’t idiots. But like I just felt like they were off base. And for me that was a point

541
01:24:57.630 –> 01:25:00.930
A turning point for me in relation to my ability to

542
01:25:02.160 –> 01:25:09.750
To trust them, and I was never really able to trust them, but I also think, Okay, we’re thinking about this from the perspective of the people teaching

543
01:25:11.100 –> 01:25:21.480
In Jeff, you said an interesting. An interesting thing go build a website. I think that those folks coming up in the space have just as much responsibility.

544
01:25:22.080 –> 01:25:40.740
Like you said, Alicia to go out and validate and test and learn. They have just as much responsibility to go out and do that. And I have to admit, sometimes I don’t necessarily see the level of productivity that I would like with with the young folks coming up in the industry.

545
01:25:42.000 –> 01:25:46.140
Now that I’m one of the older folks, I would like to see more of that.

546
01:25:46.710 –> 01:25:49.980
Coming from folks that are that are new in the industry just

547
01:25:50.280 –> 01:26:01.950
You know, a curiosity or hey, I want to go try building a website just to just to break things just to see what will will happen and I fully realized that’s not for everybody, but I do think that as much as

548
01:26:02.400 –> 01:26:22.380
The experienced folks, the old guard has a responsibility to teach people, especially if you’re good at doing it the people coming up, have a responsibility to not just wait to be taught to go figure things out as much as possible, but that’s true.

549
01:26:23.700 –> 01:26:30.960
I agree with you that it is it is a. And that’s, you know, mythological studies going back to the to my grad degree.

550
01:26:31.890 –> 01:26:47.310
The guru relationship. The, the person who is the student does have that kind of responsibility, they have to go do their work in those real real situations, they, they have a lot more work to do, then, then the teacher does really

551
01:26:49.140 –> 01:27:01.110
You made me think of a thing that a manager said to me once, and this is way back in the bell South days and this manager took me aside and said,

552
01:27:02.520 –> 01:27:03.810
You have a lot of knowledge.

553
01:27:04.980 –> 01:27:05.640
And

554
01:27:06.780 –> 01:27:10.230
you’re mistaking that knowledge for power.

555
01:27:11.280 –> 01:27:13.800
But knowledge is only powerful when you share it.

556
01:27:17.370 –> 01:27:25.920
And that is kind of where I come from, on all of this is that knowledge is only powerful when I’m sharing it with other people.

557
01:27:27.750 –> 01:27:28.950
That’s actually a powerful statement.

558
01:27:32.910 –> 01:27:34.680
Awesome. Well, I mean, I think that’s

559
01:27:35.970 –> 01:27:40.800
Gonna be really careful of time because we’re pushing an hour and a half now. So

560
01:27:42.480 –> 01:27:43.710
Lots of editing homework.

561
01:27:43.740 –> 01:27:45.210
Yeah, no, it’s great and

562
01:27:45.960 –> 01:27:54.540
You know, I guess my final thoughts on that aspect was I really feel that I am willing to teach. But you have to be willing to learn and

563
01:27:55.350 –> 01:28:02.370
When you know some things are complicated, right, and doing any tips or coding or any types of tech I focus on technical side a lot. It’s

564
01:28:02.730 –> 01:28:17.640
It’s there are some people who just who always want to know it, but really don’t. There’s a lot of time. You got to put into doing it and it’s if I don’t feel that you’re 100% into it. I feel like I might be wasting my time and time is more, you know, valuable than than any of this. So,

565
01:28:18.660 –> 01:28:22.770
But I wanted to thank you for coming onto the show and I, you know, we’re gonna

566
01:28:23.880 –> 01:28:30.090
I don’t think we’re gonna have much editing. I think we have some really great content going on here and I’m hoping that the world gets listen to it all.

567
01:28:32.190 –> 01:28:34.530
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was it was a pleasure.

568
01:28:34.890 –> 01:28:36.030
A good way to start Friday.

569
01:28:37.260 –> 01:28:37.770
Yes.

570
01:28:39.150 –> 01:28:40.470
Oh, bye everybody.

571
01:28:40.800 –> 01:28:42.870
All right. Thank you, guys. Bye.

#29: Kelly Stanze

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Kelly Stanze, SEO specialist at Hallmark.

We discuss how she started in marketing, how it led her to SEO, and how she eventually made it to Hallmark.

We also discuss a ton of other topics including:

  • What it’s like to get laid off, how to cope with failure in a way that makes you stronger,
  • Agency versus In-House
  • Deep dive into Holiday SEO & Snowman poop
  • Talk about evergreen content strategy
  • Our thoughts on Google’s BERT
  • Google Search Console’s new page speed reports
  • Work life balance
  • Importance of relationships

And much more.

Episode Transcript

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Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops and we are back with another episode of the page to podcast and today we have an extra special guest, and given that the

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It has turned into the holiday season. This guest is extremely appropriate to have on right now, but with us is Kelly stanzi search specialist at Hallmark. How you doing, Kelly.

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Good. How are you, I

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Am I am awesome and before we, before we kind of jump in. I’m Jeff. Say hi. Sorry, I forgot to introduce you

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Hey, howdy. Hey,

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We don’t care about Jeff.

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Yes, we do. Jeff.

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I appreciate. Thank you.

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We are. I was just gonna say before we kind of dive in. I don’t know if you guys have been noticing it like two events for me recently.

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Have triggered the fact that, and I can’t believe it, that it is holiday season, yet again, one happened about four weeks ago and it infuriated me when I walked into Home Depot and the Christmas trees were already up

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Like Sons of bitches. It’s October 1 like

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What the heck it and it just seems to be getting

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earlier and earlier and earlier every year and then yesterday I was in the line at Starbucks and I didn’t realize that it was the official release of their new holiday cups and

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Cups. Yeah, to put it in perspective. Like, I went today. I’m kind of a Starbucks fiend, and I went today and I went yesterday.

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Yesterday, I had to wait in line for like 30 minutes and it was insane. Today I went through the drive thru in under like under four minutes or five minutes. So it’s holiday season. So it’s really appropriate that you’re on Kelly.

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You know i i think i actually have one of the best holiday season stories ever as far as seasonality goes, I have an 11 MONTH OLD AND HIS BIRTHDAY IS NOVEMBER 27 and last year. Cyber Monday. Remember e commerce retail day job.

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His birthday was the day after Cyber Monday last year. So I actually checked into the hospital and started my maternity leave on Cyber Monday.

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Wow. Wow.

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Yeah.

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Give him to try me.

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No, no, no. And he was worth it and

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You know what a good deal. Yeah.

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We had absolutely amazing coverage like my team is fantastic but it’s just so funny that I

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My day job at least is at such a seasonally relevant

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Company and oh by the way I’m going to miss the busy season and I didn’t come back until the week after Valentine’s Day, which is also a huge holiday for homework. So that’s kind of funny. Um,

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But then, yeah, even, even on the freelance side the side hustle stuff I end up having quite a bit of seasonality, just because

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I do work with small businesses and nonprofits. So if you’re working with a local photographer, you know her busy season is going to be in October, helping people get ready for Christmas cards and

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Nonprofit nonprofits are scrambling to get their, their donation campaigns ready for the holiday season as well. So it’s like

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Q4 is the linchpin of the entire year.

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It’s the busy season.

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In a for any agency Q4 is always the busy season. That’s where you like. You definitely are expected to put in a lot of lot of overtime. So it’s just call it, it’s just it is what it is. It’s the busy season.

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So Kelly take us take us through your career. Like I feel like I’ve said this a million times. I’m going to say it again in case there are first time listeners, the hallmark of this show.

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Is telling the origin stories of great SEOs. And not only that, but talking about just the Trials. Trials and tribulations of what it’s like to be an SEO day to day in things that are

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Important like work life balance. The, the mental side of things.

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And I, and I kind of want to dive into that, but so take us take us through your career. How did you get to SEO. How did you get to homework.

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Well, I took the winding road.

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I actually started accidentally landing social media internships in college.

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And my degree was an interactive design. So it was loosely relevant like, Oh, I can make this meme. And I can edit this video and publish this podcast and build a landing page, but for the most part, I sort of fell into the social media space.

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And I got hired by one of the agencies that I interned for in their KANSAS CITY OFFICE. After graduation, so moved down here from the Chicagoland area and

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Started working for an agriculture agency and I loved it. Like I was in Florida and FFA and high school and now a farm girl living in the suburbs and

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Then, a year and a half after they moved me to Kansas City. They laid me off. So I’m 23 years old really only knew my boyfriend at the time was now my husband.

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And was trying to figure out what came next. And he was like, you know, the SEO team at the agency that I used to work for

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Actually manages social media for clients to so you should consider applying there and I did and I got it, but ended up realizing that I actually loved SEO way more than I had ever like I was okay at social media and it was cool. I got to brag about some fun projects.

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But I would come to work every day excited about.

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All the things when I was doing SEO.

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And just, I feel like I I found my niche there and ended up kind of

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Getting tapped for a really large clients at that agency had and got to enjoy the dedicated specialist life for a year, which

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Anyone that has ever had just one client at an agency knows what a big deal. That is, and really got to spread my wings.

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About two years after I started at that agency there was kind of a shift in the business model and the ownership and I decided it might be time to see if there was a new chapter on the horizon for me and I

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Kind of on a whim applied for hallmark and got it and I’ve been here for years. That’s a lot of Q force to serve.

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But I’m throughout that entire journey I’ve also been doing freelancing on the side with small businesses nonprofits niche groups I helped with a website for a pig show in Texas, one time.

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Because I’m one of the few SEO specialist out there that does have agricultural industry experience so that I keep coming back to that. That’s hilarious.

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Um, yes, I do have a poop question later so

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Okay, I can, I can probably answer that for you.

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As a mother, you should be an expert in that at this point.

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Oh boy.

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Um, so yeah, I didn’t. I cut you off there. I couldn’t resist the end to talk about poop.

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So you you got laid off. What was that like

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It was awful. Um, you know, I had

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My boyfriend now has been probably six months and I just remember like hanging out at his apartment was nothing to do just crying because I had always

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focus so much of my identity and my career. Up until that point. And even after that.

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I really didn’t kind of understand how to shift like my self worth, out of my career as much until I became a mom.

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But when you’re that invested in your career and your this young, hot shot that had this cool agency job and you are going to take the world by storm. And then suddenly you’re unemployed and a city 500 miles from your home, trying to figure out what you’re going to do.

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That’s scary. And I think I was more scared of not knowing who I was, or what my career was going to be than I necessarily was about being far from home and a place I’ve only lived for just over a year.

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Obviously I decided to stay and put my roots down deeper here in Kansas City. And it’s the best decision I’ve ever made, but at the time it was

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Just so much uncertainty and such a blow to who I thought I was because

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I was supposed to be taking the world by storm and and forging a path for myself and now I’m just like standing here like okay

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I can pay the bills for two weeks on my severance okay this is nice.

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And it worked out. It was actually I recently wrote a piece for search engine journal about kind of like the parallels between my

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Mental health journey and my career and like just the the deep intertwining between those two things and

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I made a note of calling out that the best things that have ever happened to me. Usually looked like a disaster at the time. So I really bad breakup in college, losing that first job fresh out of college and falling into a CEO and you know at the time that was

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I’m getting old now.

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I’m not even sure how many years ago that was

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At the time, no SEO or social media really only had like some surface level vanity metrics that you could look at and I got into SEO and looked at this, like depths of knowledge that you could get from Search Console and analytics, even though they had just switched to not provided.

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And that’s not even touching like the SEO specific

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platforms like mas and bright edge or conductor or a dress, you know, we all, we all know the list.

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So I realized that I was actually for the first time really using both sides of my brain. And that was something I needed.

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So yeah, losing that first job and being able to sort of tap into a piece of myself that I didn’t know was there and kind of needed to be fed and nurtured was actually like a happy accident and yeah

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I was gonna ask. So like you. You made an interesting point about like the things

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That at first look like disasters, end up turning out to be really, really good things in your, in your life, and I’m a huge in the same as for me, I’m a huge believer in

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In fate and being in the right place at the right time. And there have been a lot of instances of that in my life. So now,

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With kind of that new outlook when something big like that happens in your life. How has that experience, change the way you attack problems or how is it made you better. How did you pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

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Oh,

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Get to that good place.

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Yeah. Um, I think it’s really, it’s dependent on the chapter and the situation.

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You know the I’ve mentioned in passing a bad breakup in college. My coping mechanism for that was

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Okay, I’m going to take these out of state internships and like go live my life. So I got to spend a summer living in Sacramento, California. Now for a kid in the Midwest, like that’s a huge experience.

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And that’s the internship that ended up landing to here in Kansas City where I have this amazing, fantastic like said I love

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So yeah i i don’t know i think in that situation. It was like a

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Almost like a kind of juvenile I’ll show you type thing, but then when I got laid off, it was more about, like, okay.

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I think I can take a risk here because I have nothing to lose. I don’t. It’s not like I have a job to worry about. So I did go out on a limb and apply for an SEO team that did some social media, knowing that I would be stretching my my comfort zone. So

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If I had to distill it down to like one coping mechanism. It’s usually

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If I know something’s coming I stew in the dread for forever. And I get super anxious, but once I’m in it. It’s just like, Okay, what now. And yeah, you know, is this, is this a turning point. Do I need to pivot and typically when I have pivoted it’s ended up working out.

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Yeah, I think we’ve all

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Had to pivot at one time. I mean, I’m way older than both you guys so um I pivoted a lot in my career started off you know as web designer.

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It was interesting because everything to me. I think was a

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All luck. I don’t know, it’s weird. It’s interesting. I got it all goes because started off wanting to learn 3D animation.

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Really was bad at that but learned along the way was really bad design, but no one else did it.

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Learned code at the same time and moved into SEO, mostly because I was willing to take those chances and, you know, not many people were

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You know, doing this stuff at the time, and it wasn’t really a, you know, I lived through the.com boom and then bust. Right. I went to bartending school at that night because I was like, well, when the internet goes away.

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I’m gonna be a bartender, because at least I can make some money while I, you know, find something else to do. Luckily, that didn’t happen.

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I mean, I didn’t think it was gonna happen. But I mean, a lot of companies went out of business. At that time, and there was been through.

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A bunch of layoffs. Luckily not on the layoff side, but there were some companies I knew right away, like when it was happening and I was already on the lookout to go somewhere else. Because like you just some people were just sitting there.

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Yeah, what’s

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Next,

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So, so yeah, having kind of the insight and just having the bravery to be able to just jump and figure that out.

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Well, and I think there’s there’s something to be said for just when you’re in it. There’s certain level of like survival instincts that he can, like,

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I was, I was very fortunate in that I was only unemployed for two weeks.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, most, most people don’t get that kind of that kind of luck following Ola, and I have not. I’ve

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See, I’ve been in the professional world eight years now and I have not worked at a company that did not experience layoffs while I was there.

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And luckily, I was one of those people only one of those times at one of those companies, but it’s just it’s a fact of the world like organizations re

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Organized they realign their budgets and it’s going to happen if you work in marketing or digital or agency side, whatever your role is client side or on the service side it’s going to happen. And I think a lot of people underestimate.

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Just that drive to just put your head down and solve it when you’re in it because that’s, that’s really where I was. And I remember a whole lot of those two weeks because I was in such like a

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Know the word I’m thinking like tunnel vision.

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For really figuring out what came next. Like I just remember for two weeks. I just, I went to interviews I filled out applications. And I went running. That was a that was only for two weeks.

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But then I did end up getting hired for that first job. And then I had this the first job after the layoff. And I had this like kind of moment where I was like, well, I’m probably not going to be doing what I’ve been doing. So then the survival mode kicked back in because it’s like okay

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Let’s figure this out. Sink or swim and it ended up being fantastic and I had wonderful mentors and that was years ago now and those people are still friends and mentors to me.

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So yeah, I just, I think.

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There’s just something to be said for the tenacity and the stick to witness to just get through it.

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And you underestimate your ability to do it until you’re actually in it. And it’s like, oh, I’m looking back and I survived that. Yeah, sometimes.

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You’re, you’re tougher than you think. Sometimes when you think

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So I’ve actually I’ve only worked on the agency side of things, it’s really been

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Interesting my career path. I’ve always wondered on like going in house, how would it be different than agency life. I feel sometimes

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I have it, like, oh, being in house would be a little slow because I’m only working on one website instead of 50 and then sometimes I’m like hey I would actually want to get something done working on website over 50. What were some of your experiences going from agency to in house.

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Um, it is never slow

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That’s good.

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I’m I’m never bored. That’s great. I think it’s

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Politically, it’s different priorities wise different resources, it’s different.

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But it also depends on the company. There are a lot of agile companies out there that feel a lot more like an agency. And then there’s plenty of agencies that because of the vertical they work in or

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You know regulations within their specialist fields or even just like massive size. They’re not quick and they’re not full of a ton of variety. So

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I and I hate to generalize agency versus in house because really, they’re all they’re all different. You know, my second agency was completely different than my first and

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My internship agencies were completely different than my big kid agencies.

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But at the same time, I think there’s the one big difference is kind of your sense of ownership.

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At the end of the day when your client side. Usually the buck stops at you.

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And you have all this extra risk and accountability that you’re taking on when you’re, you’re the client and you’re the last line of defense against whatever it is that could be going wrong.

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But at the same time, you also like have a way more ownership. I mean, some agencies, you can’t even tell people who your clients are

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So if you do something really cool. You can’t necessarily even brag about it. Whereas on a daily basis. I get to to be openly proud of what we’ve got going on and I can point at that website or the several websites. I’m involved in and be like, guys, I did that. That’s my project.

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That’s great.

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That’s a, you’re right. I think I have a couple of his studies that are just a

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Somebody in this industry to this.

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Yeah well and if I’m

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I mean it’s it’s weird because obviously there’s cons to any job I anytime I talk to a young professional now. Like what’s your, your, you know, major life advice I’m always like, there’s no such thing as a perfect job.

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Every job has its giant pile of poop. And it’s about finding the company whose giant pile of poop smells the least bad to you.

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But they all have good fit.

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And ultimately, like

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I can deal with most piles of poo, but I think

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my train of thought. We started talking about poop. And now I’m thinking about buying diapers later.

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Well, the funny thing is I always say to people like, don’t get me wrong. I like my job, but like if I had a choice. I wouldn’t be working, I’d be off on some island or, you know, who knows who knows where. And I always say like

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Nobody is going to be on their deathbed, saying, I wish, I wish I’d worked more

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Yeah, so that actually is really, really good advice because like I’ve had

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Jobs that I’ve hated and I’ve had jobs that I love. And for me, like, there’s always a reason to find a problem with a job. If you want to find a problem with a job and in something that I’ve had to learn over the course of

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My kind of professional experiences like sometimes you just have to be happy with kind of the imperfections of the job and appreciate all of the good points. And I, being a glass half empty sort of person struggle with that sometimes

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In yes sometimes you just have to like let certain things go and just be happy with the good points of have a job.

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Well, and I think SEO any job has its own

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unique challenges. But I think when you work in an ambiguous field that maybe outsiders don’t understand very well like SEO. I think there’s an added layer of challenge that

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People in other fields just might might not fully grasp, like I have joked in the past about

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Have A DOG BARKING

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I’ve joked in the past about how

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You know, like a third of my job or something like that was just like, explaining things to people and getting getting buy in both the agency and client side and

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Sorry we so little sidebar about me. My husband and I have 26 pets, most of which are rescues

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And one of them is very opinionated right now.

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Whoa. That is a lot of pets.

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Yeah, do you want to do something with elder. Thank you.

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Um, my husband works from home to

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Us.

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Hey, where are we, yeah.

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We were talking about. What were we talking about Jeff i’d coming up attention. Sorry, I was marking the time second cut that out.

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A lot about poop.

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$28 whereas

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Let me get started let me get us started back out or started back up. So in reading your, your account I followed your account for a while and I didn’t realize until today.

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That, like, here I am thinking I tweet a lot, and I’ve got like a couple thousand tweets you you have 51,000

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Or 51 point 4000 tweets, which I was like holy shit, that’s a lot of tweets and then the, the one that caught my eye today.

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As I was doing a little, a little pre show research and I just want to read it because I think it’s funny.

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If anyone’s curious what it’s like to work in e commerce for for hallmark I got an email and the only content that showed in the preview outlook provided was snowman poop. And I had to ask about the snowman poop. So tell me about the snowman poop.

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Apparently there’s wind up toys out there that poop jelly beans and we will have a snowman shaped one as a stocking stuffer. I guess.

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Wow. So now I know what I’m getting my kids as a stocking stuffer this year.

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Yeah, last year we had reindeer. So I think this year, we have a snowman.

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Kids have the reindeer.

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You have

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Your poop.

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Or just know it’s Ranger the poops. Okay. Yeah.

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There’s a little brown jelly beans. Yeah, I assume this no man’s will be like my jelly beans.

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Never thought about that. I’m so sorry to the outside of all the poop. What’s it like to work at hallmark

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Really jolly Christmas tree started going up this week. But the biggest thing is Hallmark is a privately owned company and I have a very extensive NDA.

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So,

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You don’t get to share all that goodness

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Yes, it’s a must tell you that my job is absurd. A lot of this.

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Yeah, it sounds like a lot of it is based around I’m immediately thinking with my SEO brain on it’s based around probably optimizing for a lot of these these brands in these

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This kind of different, different series and obviously I’m a huge Harry Potter person.

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Which is weird, because I’m a 37 year old man, and I’m into Harry Potter. So it’s not the most

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What’s your house.

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Huh.

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What’s your house.

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Oh, of course. I’m Griffin door, of course.

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Oh,

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The hero. But although I will say, I took a test. A couple of years ago and it placed me in huff and puff. So I don’t know what that says about

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A hopeless. Yeah, we

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Are the house of hard work and loyalty and snacks and that is where I go. Haha.

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There you go, well, yeah, there you go, that I think that actually does describe me pretty well. So I kind of get it but always want to think of myself as a griffin door.

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Yeah, and are so yeah there’s, there’s a lot of work that goes into optimizing for our licenses. But one thing that people maybe don’t realize is, like, I’m starting work on Christmas and like March.

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Because we actually have highly collectible stuff that launches on the site in April, that are most passionate customers will go after

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And it’s hilarious because I’ll be sitting at my desk, listening to Christmas music in the middle of the spring, because what I’m working on, guys. Might as well get in the mood.

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Christmas in July. So let’s let’s save that, because for those people. We don’t often

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Talk about at the beginning of the show. What we’re going to deep dive on but Surprise, surprise, we’re going to deep dive on holiday and seasonal SEO, but before we do that, Jeff. What’s, what’s in the news this week.

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Cool. So first up, I’m not really brand new news, but it’s been something that’s been in the news, since it’s been released, and that is Bert, the new natural language processing.

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Algorithm. I guess we’ll call it that is brought into Google, Google said it was actually the biggest update to their algorithm since rank brain. I think that came out five years ago.

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But it’s been interesting because we haven’t really seen any changes. I look at MA’s cast and Alec have ruined.

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Everything actually looks better than normal because it’s usually like a little bit of a stormy day. It seems like it’s a nice spring weather with all those

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Kind of casters right now, it’s, it’s an interesting approach. I thought it was something Google has been doing forever anyway.

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Maybe not naming it Burt but they have really been always talking about, you know, they’re trying to find the information, trying to find the the context between everything

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Schema has been a great part of that like trying to add meaning to stuff it just seems like now we just have a fancier algorithm to do that.

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Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot of articles on it. And at the end of the day it’s it’s not something we can really optimize towards though I did read an article where New York Times says that they since birth has launched they’ve lost a lot of traffic.

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Not sure if that’s, I haven’t seen any of my clients or anything like that. I don’t know. Kelly. If you’ve seen anything since the launch of Burt positive or negative with it.

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Honestly, I haven’t seen significant change anywhere. Um,

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I i think the irony of New York Times, saying that losing traffic is virtually supposed to negatively impact 10% of all searches and the ones that are supposed to impact our websites that don’t write for human consumption as well.

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So it’s, it’s definitely interesting to see that, you know, in this first wave, you know, one of the most world renown media sources there is is is one of the ones discussing penalties, but

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I think we’ve still got a lot to see as far as Burt’s impacts. I think this this season is one of search volatility.

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In general, just because user habits are changing with holiday shopping and that sort of thing. So I think

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When things sort of settled down in the new year. I think will maybe see a more mature version of of bird arise, whether that’s through updates from Google, or just

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The new normal kind of settling in. Right. But I also am of the opinion that if you’re writing good content that’s people focused, you’re going to be fine. No.

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I agree. I think when we look at it. The reason we have a website right it’s, it’s, we really want to be able to write for our customers. And I always have a little thing where I

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To little nitpicky thing but like I don’t call my customers users and it’s I don’t say very for users. I’m like writing for customers and running for people because it just

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backs that up. I was like, who I’m actually writing for I wouldn’t be like a my, my favorite user, you know, it’s like

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You know, it’s a something dumb that I always kind of pick on that, but I really do feel like if you’re just not trying to write to rank and you’re actually trying to inform it’ll be the most beneficial thing you can do for your side. Yes, and

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And honestly, like that’s that’s the core of SEO to begin with. Like I part of what I evangelize.

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And all of the the arena as I touched from a search standpoint is

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SEO is actually a form of customer service. If you do it right, you are there to fulfill a need or answer a question and SEO is just making sure that you are detail oriented about how you position yourself to fulfill that need

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So as long as you keep that mindset, you are probably going to be fine with Burt that said

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We all know that major algorithm updates can cause some blips and some destabilize stations and like I said, I think we’re probably going to see more stable and mature version of it early next year.

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So the funny thing about Burt and for me about algorithm changes in general is like honestly I’ve only been a part of one website.

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Well, I shouldn’t say that, but one one where I knew for sure that it was an algorithm change and that Google had just throttle.

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The site down and then later on when they made an update it throttled it back up and like for me. I’m a very bottom line person and like

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I think about birth, and I think about in that instance when I know that it happened as a result of an algorithm update like what do I change.

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In my day to day what what changes. And for me, like, really, it’s not a damn thing about what I’ve been doing, like, I’m not like

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I see a lot of people talking about other people who are writing about optimizing for birth and I’m

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And I’m just like, Well, honestly, like what I what I feel like Burt is really intended to do is to really break up and understand queries and understand the intent behind the queries and

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Hopefully divvy up the results by, like, hey, this query is someone looking for looking for information this query is looking for

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Somebody looking for support this query is looking for somebody who is looking to transact or buy something and to serve up the results based on that. Well,

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If you’re doing your job as an SEO, you’re already looking in. Maybe not at the level of a computer or a machine, but you’re already looking at all of these keywords that you want to target and you’re already thinking about the intent behind them in terms of what kinds of

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Web pages are being surfaced up and if you’re not doing that you should

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But for me, because I’m already doing that. It’s like, well, it doesn’t change anything. It’s like rank brain. It didn’t really change anything for me. So like for me.

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It’s kind of like a big buzzword in the industry and it’s something that everybody is talking about. And I just am like, yeah, doesn’t really doesn’t really affect me.

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00:42:28.680 –> 00:42:45.960
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. And I think the writing’s on the wall for this for a while, um, you know, Google has been very vocal about putting end users first whether their customers or just information gatherers or

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People doing research projects. Someone recently asked on Twitter. When was the first time you ever use the internet and I talked about doing a research project on beluga whales and like second or third grade.

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Just a little aside, I like that story, um, the thing is like micro moments were such a like hot buzzword for a while there. And really, I think,

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Burt is essentially placing a logic behind understanding those micro moments more if anyone is shocked that Google introduced a new layer of AI that helps people match their intent with their search results a little bit better, they probably haven’t been in search very long, in my opinion.

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It’s funny because we always see all of these knee jerk reactions. Every time there’s a an algorithm update and very, very rarely

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Is anyone actually one of those brands that tanks are suddenly spikes.

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And usually when it happens, it ends up course correcting at some point in time anyways so it’s still about the long game of write good content. Have a good site give the content, the technical structure. It needs to be able to be crawled and found and indexed and served

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This is, you know, for lack of a better cliche. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And I think the Burt rollouts IS JUST TO TURN ON THE RACE ROUTE.

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I think

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The person who comes out the worst. And this is actually the character bird because they use this image and everything. And it’s going to really

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Use image search

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How many birds.

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birds, birds, never got this kind of publicity. Yeah, exactly.

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someone tweeted that there are waiting to see what the cost of the domain Ernie SEO would be like in a week or so because people are trying to go after it.

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Crazy SEO.

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And

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Awesome, so do the other thing I haven’t news is kind of a just we talked about it before, but it’s actually officially rolled out now is the Google page, page report inside of Google Search Console.

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We’re really looking forward to this because I’ve really been trying to hone in a lot of my clients on PHP and just convince them like, hey, this is something at Google, like

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Here’s all these articles how Google says it’s important. Like it’s important for your customers. It’s important for search

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And still have a lot of customers who are happy, six, seven second load times

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And it’s like, no, no. We need to get better. And actually, it’s really hard to show when you have a million pages I give them like here’s a five page speed report or here’s 30 pages and

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It’s really hard to show a whole thing. When we look at, like, something like Google Analytics. We don’t have a great page report inside of there so

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I like the Google’s pushing this and kind of them, showing that they’re pushing it. You know, it helps me with my clients like look, now you can give us give

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00:46:03.150 –> 00:46:15.810
Sorry, I’m getting tongue tied Google’s really like pushing this to show us that it’s even more important by giving it to webmasters and with anything make it an SEO factor and you have a slew of people that are going to push this just like

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00:46:17.310 –> 00:46:25.710
Like everything else they put out like make your site HTTPS and just say it’s a ranking factor. Now SEOs are like making every one of their clients go HTTPS.

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It’s kind of amazing how we can push the whole internet to roll something out but page has been fairly tough.

341
00:46:33.120 –> 00:46:43.290
Because it’s not as easy as getting your certificate and making yourself, you know, secure, it’s a lot harder to accomplish. But some of the reports mean Jake were talking about earlier.

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I mean, I know this is experimental. I know it’s a first released, but there is a lot to be

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Wanted in the secret for it’s a, it’s great. We have a trend, but there’s not much else after that. So, Jake. I know you have an opinion on that.

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I have an opinion on everything SEO really

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Funny thing is like outside of my day to day job, like I’m so easy going and I don’t have an opinion, it’s like

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It’s like, hey, where do you want to go to dinner. I don’t care. And with SEO. It’s like, I have an opinion on every, every thing. And I’m now everybody’s got to hear it because I have a podcast. So let me tell you.

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The Page Speed reports.

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directionally they’re really awesome between both Google Search Console and what Screaming Frog has come out with the big problem. And the big, the big pain in the ass about page speed is just what Jeff said like when you’re trying to

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When you’re dealing with sites that are large and in some cases really large. There’s no way to give them enough of a representative sample of

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00:47:52.500 –> 00:48:03.870
page load times to really kind of really make an impact. Right. If you give them 25 pages when they’ve got a million page website. Well, that’s like, that’s just dropping the hat.

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But in the same in the same breath, like you as a person. Don’t have the time to manually go through that many pages and pull down all of the metrics that tools like web page tests, Google page speed insights GT metrics.

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00:48:19.860 –> 00:48:28.590
Lighthouse that they all provide they all provide really great data, but until this Google Search Console report and until things like Screaming Frog.

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It was really hard to go site wide and get a larger sweep of how page speed which trending on all pages of a website. Now here’s the here’s the flip side.

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I actually went in and tried to use the Google Search Console Page Speed reports today and I went so far as to send a screenshot to one of my clients who is struggling with Page Speed to say, hey,

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Here’s what Google is saying about your page speed and on mobile. I’m several thousand. I don’t even want to go into the page numbers but like 75% of your pages are deemed slow

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The other 25% are deemed average and zero percent of your pages are deemed fast and I sent them say go look at this, go look at this report and Search Console, Mr or Mrs client and

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I sent that and then like without absent mindedly like diving any further into the search Council reports. So that’s definitely my fault for not diving further before I sent it.

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I looked at Search Console and i and i clicked in like okay show more details.

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And I realized for the first time that like it is only showing a very small sample of if it’s saying like, you’ve got 5000 pages that are slow it’s giving you a sample of, like, five

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And it’s not even telling you what the issues are on a page on a page by page basis. So I was a little disappointed when I went in.

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00:49:54.300 –> 00:50:09.750
It was a little bit of a wah wah moment and I’ll have surely have to explain that to the client when they go and look at it and don’t figure anything out based on the report, but it is directionally a move in the right step in the right direction. So I do

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Well, and I think the biggest thing that

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That report within Search Console and even the the paradigm shifts, we’re seeing in new search console in general is a new chapter in the relationship between Google and search engine strategist.

364
00:50:26.760 –> 00:50:33.510
Um, you know i i got started in SEO right as Google was taking away keyword data from Google Analytics.

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00:50:34.230 –> 00:50:45.780
And even to this day I’ll meet with people and they’re like, well, what does our Google Analytics data say about our keywords. So I’m like, it’s not in there. It’s in Search Console, like I can get you keyword data.

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But it’s not in Google Analytics anymore because Google give us and Google taketh away. Well now it’s starting to give us more back

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And, you know, at one point in time we were all those people dropping and single URLs into the mobile page speed tester.

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00:51:02.640 –> 00:51:12.720
And trying to use that to benchmark the page speed of our site and how we could perform and mobile and now you’ve got people like JOHN MUELLER everyone’s SEO dad who I love,

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Out there actually telling us how to answer our questions and solve problems and, you know, Danny Sullivan actually saying yes, there was an algorithm update

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So even if, at times, it feels like some of the reports aren’t as useful as we might like or you know there’s they’re still obviously experimental are in beta. At the same time, this is way better than the days when it’s like I don’t know my

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Query greatness.

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Yeah. And yeah, I feel like I feel like the, the, the little boy who complains on Christmas when he didn’t get enough great Christmas presents, but like

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I mean like if that’s actually that that theme aligns with what we’re talking about in a couple of seconds but directionally, like I said, it’s awesome. It really is. I’m glad I just can’t wait till like they add a little bit more behind the scenes and make me

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Allow me to be more lazy, I should say.

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Yeah, I’m definitely curious to see how it keeps evolving.

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Admittedly, pretty much every site I touch right now has load time issues.

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00:52:27.570 –> 00:52:33.030
Or at least plenty of room for improvement, but I literally just sat on a webinar on Monday that was about

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WPS and amp and

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How

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Essentially, there’s no such thing as a perfect score for site speed. That’s always a work in progress. And even if you have almost instantaneous loading, there’s still going to be things that Google’s going to see and be like, hey, you can do that better.

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So I think it’s interesting, and obviously mobile really keeps the conversation on on Page Speed propelling forward.

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Don’t even get me started on how mobile cues end up impacting voice performance to since that’s on everyone’s mind as well.

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So we’re going to keep hearing about it. But I also think that we are still kind of immature in the space of Page Speed analysis and optimization were leaps and bounds ahead of where we were when I started in this field, but I think that’s like the next big

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00:53:36.960 –> 00:53:41.190
Continuation of, like, what’s coming in tech SEO. Yeah.

385
00:53:43.260 –> 00:53:48.030
So Jeff, is that all the news, because I’m I’m chomping at the bit. I’ve got a story to tell.

386
00:53:49.050 –> 00:53:49.710
Tell the story.

387
00:53:50.640 –> 00:54:03.300
Alright, so we’re going to deep dive into holiday SEO and hopefully I can find some nice holiday music to delve over this section, maybe some Jingle Bells. But anyways,

388
00:54:04.680 –> 00:54:05.850
I have a story to tell.

389
00:54:07.290 –> 00:54:10.410
And it is, I think, very similar to

390
00:54:11.460 –> 00:54:19.140
Maybe an experience that Kelly might have been is not allowed to divulge as as much but my story is actually very

391
00:54:20.670 –> 00:54:21.720
Very much.

392
00:54:22.860 –> 00:54:27.480
In here, I’m going to edit that out. I just snapped food. I never do that. Um,

393
00:54:29.040 –> 00:54:42.330
Let me start over. I’ve got a story to tell and it is a bout a client who their name rhymes with bakery barmes. Anybody know who they are. Maybe, maybe not.

394
00:54:43.050 –> 00:54:59.340
And they are very interesting in that they make 90% of their revenue between November and December and basically their entire year is spent planning for a two month period.

395
00:54:59.760 –> 00:55:02.760
They’re busy period where they make all of their all of their money.

396
00:55:03.570 –> 00:55:23.910
And one of the interesting challenges, working with them that we ran into. And we worked with them. And this is a previous agency we work with them for many, many years, and I wasn’t always on the account. I was on it for three years before I ended up leaving leaving that ad agency and

397
00:55:24.930 –> 00:55:33.060
The problem was that they wanted a an SEO strategy and a paid strategy and it made sense for paid, but not SEO.

398
00:55:34.050 –> 00:55:42.150
Where they turn the lights on in September and when the season was over, they turn the lights off and they stopped investing

399
00:55:42.480 –> 00:55:50.490
And they essentially went dark. And when the new season came back around. They turn the lights on, turn the lights off.

400
00:55:51.120 –> 00:55:57.210
So on the paid side. Like I said, this is a great strategy because like Why waste all your money at the time of year when it doesn’t matter.

401
00:55:57.600 –> 00:56:03.150
But on the SEO side. This was a horrible strategy and no amount of us telling them that

402
00:56:03.810 –> 00:56:12.240
made an impact and till I got on the account and keep in mind I was saying the same thing. I didn’t do anything special. They just for whatever reason, were more ready to hear it.

403
00:56:12.600 –> 00:56:20.670
When I was saying the same thing. And they eventually eventually change their ways. But what would happen is, every single year.

404
00:56:21.210 –> 00:56:36.870
Our poor SEO teams would would be able to start in September and they’re they’re real kind of drop dead date for getting any they really honestly had about a month to a month and a half to get any recommendations that they wanted

405
00:56:37.710 –> 00:56:44.730
Into the system in time to make it on the site because implementation takes a long time. Well, the problem is

406
00:56:45.540 –> 00:56:52.620
Every year, because the this particular client didn’t invest the resources with turnover.

407
00:56:52.890 –> 00:57:03.330
Because you don’t have consistent work you’re working in an agency. They slot you where the work is so it would be new resources, they would be performing an all new evaluation. Every year the results.

408
00:57:03.690 –> 00:57:14.760
Would go up and as soon as soon as the season would would end, they would go down and you’d pretty much have to rebuild the damn every single year.

409
00:57:15.180 –> 00:57:23.610
And if you’re a if you’re a client and or if you’re somebody is working with an agency hell if you’re not working with an agency.

410
00:57:24.510 –> 00:57:35.700
I highly recommend against this and I highly recommend implementing what we just honestly we just called it an evergreen always on SEO strategy for the sake of them, but like a normal strategy.

411
00:57:36.420 –> 00:57:46.500
And luckily, we find it like we were we somehow magically ended up helping them, we were successful with them, and especially successful

412
00:57:47.130 –> 00:57:55.230
During my time on the on the account in terms of driving incremental gains in revenue. But the most success for me was when they decided

413
00:57:55.710 –> 00:57:57.990
To leave the lights on in January.

414
00:57:58.470 –> 00:58:10.350
And actually allow us to work ahead and have time to do things like work on technical and get those things in there already full development queue to launch evergreen content or

415
00:58:10.590 –> 00:58:18.060
Pages like Black Friday Cyber Monday and for oh by the way all of the other holidays that were big for them and to tell them

416
00:58:18.690 –> 00:58:29.730
Don’t turn those pages off when the season was over, because that happened to they would rebuild in a brand new black friday page every single year instead of just allowing it to

417
00:58:30.270 –> 00:58:38.040
Exist, they would, they would delete it and build a new one every year. Again, it’s not advisable. It doesn’t allow the page to age over the course of time.

418
00:58:38.340 –> 00:58:47.490
And it’s like sending a newborn out into the world. Every single year. So anyways, that’s my story. We were eventually successful we got them to keep the lights on.

419
00:58:47.790 –> 00:58:56.700
And that gave us a lot more runtime, which gave us a lot more opportunity to be successful. But now that that’s the end of my story. I’m going to let you guys jump in.

420
00:58:57.480 –> 00:58:59.070
Yeah, well. Oh.

421
00:58:59.130 –> 00:59:00.000
Did you want to go.

422
00:59:00.540 –> 00:59:11.520
Good um you know I mentioned earlier, it’s a marathon, not a sprint in regards to SEO that has to do with like the life cycle of content as well.

423
00:59:12.660 –> 00:59:30.630
One of the, the biggest struggles that any SEO has his lead time making sure that your content is online long enough before it’s actually supposed to be seen by customers for it to have built up at least a little bit of juice. And if you’re starting from scratch every single year.

424
00:59:31.890 –> 00:59:40.650
Google has no idea who you are or why it should care about what your content has whereas if you’re recycling the same landing pages, year after year.

425
00:59:41.670 –> 00:59:44.880
Google is familiar with you knows what you have

426
00:59:46.050 –> 00:59:51.870
You know there’s there’s authority assigned to that page within the domain, it costs you.

427
00:59:53.190 –> 01:00:11.070
Something about each acronym here because that’s another thing that everyone wants to talk about right now. Um, but you really don’t have the ability to build that rapport page by page with with Google, if you’re starting fresh every single year. So I think

428
01:00:12.270 –> 01:00:21.900
I’m actually really impressed that you’ve asked them to change their way is because a lot of a lot of clients are figure that out. Like, I still know clients at my old shop because

429
01:00:22.380 –> 01:00:30.990
Everyone’s still talks, um, that really take for granted the ability to keep evergreen content going throughout the year.

430
01:00:31.800 –> 01:00:44.400
And then, you know, when their, their peak season starts up there like little, why isn’t traffic picking up on me because you haven’t done anything to rank well for the last nine months. Yeah.

431
01:00:44.490 –> 01:01:04.020
And it’s really important. Like, I looked up some stats and like last Cyber Monday from last year was $7.9 billion dollars in online sales. That was just one day overall last year holiday sales were up 17.4% at like 120 $2 billion sold online.

432
01:01:05.100 –> 01:01:12.540
You know it’s if there’s so much competition. You have to do everything that you need to be able to you know to to do that. I have a client who

433
01:01:13.410 –> 01:01:28.110
Takes it down every year takes down their Black Friday takes down their Cyber Monday takes down everything comes back the next year with a different URL. Every time I don’t know until like four days before Cyber Monday, but it’s going to be. I try to get into that.

434
01:01:29.130 –> 01:01:35.040
Because I’m like I’m like I’m waiting to do a redirect and if I’m lucky if I get the redirect and sometimes

435
01:01:36.060 –> 01:01:49.350
Compared to another kind of major I think how major you are in retail that like people do see that and you know where they’re Black Friday is up all year. And they just take down the ads and put like come sealskin next year.

436
01:01:50.490 –> 01:01:57.930
Start making tweaks in that in July and August. Just to kind of make the crawlers know that that page is active and

437
01:01:58.440 –> 01:02:05.640
And we hit it with the big, you know, the big updates when it comes time for that. But, and then they see like even in the summertime.

438
01:02:06.390 –> 01:02:16.680
That page does very well. It’s interesting that you know you don’t think people are looking for Black Friday stuff, but they land on that page because it was just looking for deals, you know, so, um,

439
01:02:16.710 –> 01:02:22.950
It’s really fascinating. I was as much as where we’re focused in on on retail right now. I think

440
01:02:23.670 –> 01:02:40.320
It’s relevant to literally any vertical. So like in my agriculture days. If you haven’t worked in that space. You would never think of it, but there’s actually like a heightened season for cattle vaccinations.

441
01:02:42.150 –> 01:02:42.750
Yeah.

442
01:02:44.490 –> 01:02:53.700
And that’s those seasons align with when do farmers and ranchers have their calves born and when are they going to be needing to vaccinate their

443
01:02:54.120 –> 01:03:14.820
Little baby calves that need to be kept healthy and take care of. So, I mean, we can we can talk about seasonality in regards to all the crazy people standing in line on Black Friday, but honestly like these lessons about evergreen content, keeping your pages up they’re relevant to everyone.

444
01:03:15.870 –> 01:03:29.520
The relevant to the mom and pop shops selling candles that they make in their kitchen, they’re relevant to big box department stores, although some of them specifically a brand that has a bull’s eye logo.

445
01:03:30.690 –> 01:03:37.770
Is too big to fail. They could do everything wrong still outperform everyone else on on Google, but

446
01:03:39.030 –> 01:03:52.470
It’s really about understanding when your seasons hit and planning the rest of your year essentially around future proofing yourself before that season is even on the horizon.

447
01:03:54.210 –> 01:04:02.190
So how, how far in advance do you recommend planning for this. If you’re a seasonal business.

448
01:04:03.870 –> 01:04:09.300
I typically shoot for three months. If I can

449
01:04:09.840 –> 01:04:10.920
To have content.

450
01:04:11.340 –> 01:04:12.210
On the site.

451
01:04:13.590 –> 01:04:20.130
And if it’s a net new page my minimum is a month, unless it’s an absolute urgency.

452
01:04:20.430 –> 01:04:23.550
And my question is, why can you expand on the why.

453
01:04:23.820 –> 01:04:25.260
Oh yeah, um,

454
01:04:27.090 –> 01:04:33.690
So back when I actually started working on that sort of one to three month window.

455
01:04:34.800 –> 01:04:41.100
There was still the understanding that sometimes it took up to a month for Google to really fully index new content.

456
01:04:41.670 –> 01:04:59.790
After you’ve uploaded it, but that was before things like crawl requests were readily available now that 123 month window is partially to ensure that on the client side. People have plenty of time to see it in production and react before it’s relevant.

457
01:05:01.830 –> 01:05:07.980
There’s like even even now for a variety of the sites I touch. There are

458
01:05:09.150 –> 01:05:13.530
scrambles happening last minute after it’s already in pre production to make sure that

459
01:05:14.310 –> 01:05:27.450
This little otter, and is taking care of correctly. So that’s part of the reason the other part is it just gives me peace of mind that it’s out there can be seen it’s collecting a little bit of juice from Google.

460
01:05:28.830 –> 01:05:41.130
I know that it’s well documented and site maps. It’s not being accidentally blocked. It’s really just a safety net. At this point, wondering if maybe it’s a security blanket of sorts. I get that extra

461
01:05:41.610 –> 01:05:57.510
Month that I probably don’t need in there to feel better about the position we’re in in prep, but at the same time I would rather be ahead of the game and early and feeling comfortable, then you know crunching it in the final weeks before game day

462
01:05:57.840 –> 01:06:00.870
Right. You’re giving Google time to digest it also right it’s

463
01:06:01.050 –> 01:06:02.460
Going to be crowded indexed.

464
01:06:03.000 –> 01:06:07.740
But then the get through all those you know algorithms to help it gain that value.

465
01:06:08.190 –> 01:06:13.230
Yeah, so it gives birth time to think about it in between dealing with his pigeons.

466
01:06:14.430 –> 01:06:15.240
My goodness.

467
01:06:17.580 –> 01:06:28.410
Yeah I it’s not holiday related, but I have had a couple of experiences recently where in here’s, here’s the thing. Like, people still

468
01:06:29.190 –> 01:06:35.250
Especially non SEOs struggle to grasp this concept with respect to things they want to rank for.

469
01:06:35.880 –> 01:06:43.890
Sometimes, you actually have not sometimes all the time. You have to have a page targeting that specific thing and that’s that’s a struggle for for

470
01:06:44.190 –> 01:06:52.560
For some people, so when when we’re talking about holidays. You want to rank for Black Friday. You better have a black friday page want to rank for Cyber Monday, same thing.

471
01:06:52.950 –> 01:07:03.750
Outside of the holiday, the traditional Christmas holiday New Year’s season, all these other holidays to like you want to rank for them. You better have a page for them.

472
01:07:04.500 –> 01:07:10.440
But the thing I was going to say is that it does take time, like I’ve been slowly but watching

473
01:07:11.430 –> 01:07:17.490
A couple of new pages that were really important for some, some of my clients to different clients.

474
01:07:17.820 –> 01:07:26.790
And I’ve been watching the hrs report because it gives you a nice little trend line where you can watch the the rankings and see over the course of like two years.

475
01:07:27.390 –> 01:07:36.630
What URLs may have ranked in the, in the past, for any given keyword and these really important phrases for their business really high transaction stuff on

476
01:07:37.320 –> 01:07:47.670
This page launched launched in late summer and it’s just been slowly but surely meandering its way up towards the top. And it’s taken a couple of months for them to get

477
01:07:48.270 –> 01:08:05.460
From where they were, which was nowhere. And in, in the case of a lot of businesses. If you’re creating a new page you’re creating it for a reason because you’re nowhere and you want to be somewhere. It’s taken months to just meander their way up to the top so it takes time.

478
01:08:06.510 –> 01:08:22.110
We tend to refer to that process as the pages maturing um, you know, even if the code and the content doesn’t change one bit in the two months that it’s sitting on our site just doing before it seasonally relevant

479
01:08:23.130 –> 01:08:39.450
It’s still growing into itself. It’s still growing into Google’s understanding of it and you know it doesn’t hurt if people kind of stumble upon it, and suddenly there’s traffic stats that help Google understand that it’s an authoritative and useful page.

480
01:08:40.590 –> 01:08:53.700
So yeah I I tend to err on the side of get the content out there early and just make sure that it’s situated in such a way that if you don’t want it to be seen yet, but Google can still find it your bases are covered.

481
01:08:55.200 –> 01:08:55.590
So, yeah.

482
01:08:56.250 –> 01:09:04.080
If you’re, if you’re a technical SEO to and you’re working with your developers is especially if you’re in a seasonal business.

483
01:09:05.490 –> 01:09:17.430
They’ve got a lot of shit going on and they have a probably a roadmap that they probably built eight months ago that you’re trying to get into. So you need to be mindful of that, and

484
01:09:17.790 –> 01:09:27.570
Not only that, like if you want technical changes done. You got to know they’re not coming during the holiday because they’re going to go into what’s called a code freeze.

485
01:09:28.410 –> 01:09:37.260
For those probably starting before Black Friday the site will be locked down and the only things that will matter are making sure that the shopping cart stays up

486
01:09:37.890 –> 01:09:50.760
By the way, you should track that to to make sure that there’s no abandonment issues that was a big problem for the client, whose story I told at the beginning of this where people were dropping out of the cart and they didn’t know why.

487
01:09:51.930 –> 01:09:54.180
But luckily they had tracked the dropouts.

488
01:09:55.980 –> 01:10:06.780
But yeah, if you want technical things done those things need to be done many, many months before they need to be. You need to be working with the developer to get those in queue, because I can promise you.

489
01:10:07.260 –> 01:10:13.650
If you want technical things done. It ain’t getting done in the holiday season. No way. No way. Nope. No.

490
01:10:14.100 –> 01:10:23.850
And it’s also a good time and we were talking about Page Speed before but page speed will see each capacity is a big thing, right, because we want to have fast pages, but

491
01:10:24.540 –> 01:10:36.990
Black Friday sales. If you have a good sale, it can bring it used to be the go to Digg effect when you use to get your story on the front page of Digg and everyone come to your site and crash your site. That’s the last thing you want to happen to have your website during a holiday.

492
01:10:38.190 –> 01:10:42.150
gig is still thing. It’s not the same thing. There is no more dig effect.

493
01:10:42.210 –> 01:10:42.570
I used to

494
01:10:43.470 –> 01:10:47.400
Yeah, no I we used to have battles that we can get on the front page of it, which

495
01:10:47.730 –> 01:10:51.900
There is still a Reddit affect the read it as well.

496
01:10:52.380 –> 01:10:58.200
Oh, great. I run a forum on there. So it’s our subreddit tech SEO subreddit, get it out there.

497
01:10:58.440 –> 01:11:18.720
Oh, yeah. So it’s, uh, but yeah. Now there’s a big push that way. So wouldn’t be able to make sure you can handle the load, because I do have one client in general who caps it at like 10,000 users and then they have this nice little message that says we’re sorry we’re our systems are full.

498
01:11:19.950 –> 01:11:27.060
We didn’t this queue and you just sit there and wait until goes through. It’s not a good experience. I don’t think especially like since

499
01:11:27.510 –> 01:11:36.690
You mean you can throw money at the situation and get more server space and things like that. We don’t want anyone to not get to the products.

500
01:11:37.140 –> 01:11:42.000
Sometimes that might help with one of those like if you’re running a crazy sale and you know your number.

501
01:11:42.810 –> 01:11:55.710
800 line. You know, it might be like, something like that. But that’s not their goal. Their goal is they don’t want their servers to crash. So they put that in place, but I’m constantly telling them. Now we need to get that fixed for the holidays or we’re gonna have a bad holiday.

502
01:11:55.860 –> 01:12:00.720
Do you ever notice clients, not knowing when their site goes down in holiday.

503
01:12:03.360 –> 01:12:15.030
I notice I have a uptime robot on all my clients and many of my clients are some of them were thankful. They are very like I find out it goes down and let them know right away.

504
01:12:15.570 –> 01:12:22.830
It goes to my Slack channel and I just read it over to them. I did have one client who was not happy their development teams are happy.

505
01:12:23.280 –> 01:12:34.620
Because there’s so it was always going down, and I kept telling my client, which was not the tech team and the tech team kept on going like, why is the site down just keeps finding this so they asked me to stop monitoring it.

506
01:12:35.640 –> 01:12:40.260
Then they like we know we have problems. I’m just like, yeah, I stopped in quotes.

507
01:12:41.610 –> 01:12:47.940
But they’ve they have fixed all their problems in that way, but it was one of those where they just didn’t want me being the tattletale all the time, but

508
01:12:48.210 –> 01:12:56.820
For the most part, everyone is happy that a monitoring it. I even tell them, because it’s free. Go to uptime robot monitor your own site. That way you know it’s down because

509
01:12:57.240 –> 01:13:05.580
That’s the worst thing we can have. I mean, SEO side it’s for your clients, getting to a site that’s broken and it takes 30 minutes to get back up during the peak sale so

510
01:13:06.600 –> 01:13:11.340
So that’s actually a tool. I was not familiar with prior so I’m gonna go check that out. Thank you.

511
01:13:11.490 –> 01:13:16.260
Yeah, no. It’s awesome, it’s a it’s like I said it’s a free tool, you get. I think it’s free for 50

512
01:13:17.730 –> 01:13:31.050
Domains or URLs at a time, and I can connect to slack through it. If you use Slack do a hook and I get it right. I’ve like a for all my clients. I have also a Slack channel says, are they down

513
01:13:31.740 –> 01:13:35.820
So it gives me an alert. And anyone who’s on the team can join that and just say, like, if it’s down or up

514
01:13:36.690 –> 01:13:38.310
So it’s awesome, right. So,

515
01:13:38.580 –> 01:13:44.010
Speaking of sites going down in the holidays. Do you guys have any holiday horror stories.

516
01:13:49.980 –> 01:13:51.390
Don’t, don’t, don’t.

517
01:13:54.390 –> 01:14:02.880
Say, none that come to mind. But I think part of that may be because I’ve been up since 3am

518
01:14:06.210 –> 01:14:14.640
Yeah, don’t do that. Yeah, I feel like the holidays just end up being just this blur to me.

519
01:14:16.350 –> 01:14:20.130
And now, even more so because some planning a birthday party now.

520
01:14:21.870 –> 01:14:23.460
But yeah, it’s, it’s

521
01:14:26.100 –> 01:14:34.230
Maybe all that survival mode training from life’s disappointments. It’s what gets me up for I’m in it, just get through it.

522
01:14:34.560 –> 01:14:39.960
It’s the busy season. So I asked that question because I do have a story yet again. I have a story.

523
01:14:41.400 –> 01:14:42.450
Wasn’t my client.

524
01:14:43.620 –> 01:14:53.580
This happened probably six years ago that business, surprise, surprise, like they went bankrupt in we were doing at a previous agency some work for

525
01:14:54.900 –> 01:15:03.570
A retail a retail client competitor. I would say a Best Buy not Best Buy, but a competitor. Best Buy and

526
01:15:05.340 –> 01:15:13.410
We were doing quite well organic traffic was up things were going really, really well. Problem was business was still going downhill. Like there’s

527
01:15:13.830 –> 01:15:22.140
Only so much you can you can do with your marketing the that sometimes you just can’t make the business things work.

528
01:15:22.830 –> 01:15:37.260
No matter how well your how well you’re doing. But in this particular case, and I really feel for the team that was on this account because it really ruined their entire their entire holiday result. The

529
01:15:38.610 –> 01:15:41.550
I think it was the CMO I can’t exactly remember who it was.

530
01:15:42.570 –> 01:15:49.650
They had a they had a concern that the site was going to go down because it was getting too much organic traffic.

531
01:15:50.220 –> 01:16:05.730
So what did they do they disallowed it on purpose in the robots file on purpose. And luckily our team caught it. But our team didn’t catch it right away our team caught it maybe like a day or two days after it happened and got it rectified but like

532
01:16:07.110 –> 01:16:11.820
That type of stuff, especially if you really depend on the holidays. I mean, if you’re

533
01:16:12.480 –> 01:16:22.200
A business that depends on online for any any amount of revenue like that type of stuff costs in this case probably did cost people their jobs so

534
01:16:22.710 –> 01:16:28.890
It was crazy man. It was crazy. I felt so bad for for them because like they were doing great. And they were a great team.

535
01:16:29.490 –> 01:16:43.170
And then somebody steps in and does this without without their without their consent or approval or knowledge and completely tanked. The results for that entire season so like they were pretty bummed out about it, but that definitely happened and it just

536
01:16:44.070 –> 01:16:55.230
For me, illustrated the importance of continuing to educate people and continuing to educate the clients. And I just think I still don’t even understand the logic. Like, I feel

537
01:16:55.230 –> 01:16:56.850
Like that would be a good problem to have.

538
01:16:56.910 –> 01:17:02.070
But for whatever reason. Yeah, no man they did it. That’s a true story just

539
01:17:02.220 –> 01:17:03.660
Stop your server processes.

540
01:17:03.990 –> 01:17:05.190
You

541
01:17:06.600 –> 01:17:10.230
I just had my mouth just hanging

542
01:17:10.290 –> 01:17:12.900
Okay, sorry.

543
01:17:13.050 –> 01:17:15.000
Yeah, that really happened.

544
01:17:16.320 –> 01:17:26.850
No, I haven’t had any major ones, the one that would have almost been just like yours, where I had a client like tweak their application firewall.

545
01:17:27.510 –> 01:17:38.820
And we didn’t know that. And all of a sudden, like in Search Console, all these 500 Irby just started popping up literally a week before Black Friday and we’re just

546
01:17:39.690 –> 01:17:47.940
digging and digging and digging and I’m just like, what did you guys change nothing would something changed on the website because we’re having all these and after kind of digging it.

547
01:17:49.650 –> 01:17:58.500
One of my favorite things I like to do is run Screaming Frog get ridiculous amount of speeds, so that I get kicked off the website and I noticed that happens and

548
01:17:59.640 –> 01:18:07.410
It kicked me off and give me the same error. I was seeing and Search Console. And I was like, oh, did you change your protection or your firewall like

549
01:18:07.800 –> 01:18:17.220
Oh yeah, we were tweaking some of the settings in it was like, well, you’re blocking Google because they they allow Google through but they blocked the amount of

550
01:18:18.690 –> 01:18:29.370
The speed at which somebody can come through on the site. So they’re basically went from saying you can have 500 clicks a minute to 100 clicks a minute because they wanted to prevent BOTS FROM scraping their pricing.

551
01:18:30.480 –> 01:18:38.550
But at the same time, Google came through. I think the magic number was like 300 you know times a minute or something like that. So we tweaked it to like to 400

552
01:18:38.970 –> 01:18:51.780
And actually, everything cleared up. So it’s kind of like saving the day before the issue happened, but that was almost like one of my again a nightmare of a decision there. But besides that, like,

553
01:18:53.070 –> 01:19:02.940
I see paid side get crushed during holidays. I’m or because we get into code freeze and I’m like all right i’m planning for 2020 and then I see people

554
01:19:02.970 –> 01:19:08.760
Like crying and the quality time like that night and day. Like, I feel bad. This is one reason I’m not

555
01:19:10.200 –> 01:19:20.580
I’m never mad to be on the SEO side, especially because like they literally have to schedule themselves to where like on Thanksgiving. They have people that are on call and on duty.

556
01:19:21.180 –> 01:19:31.500
At all points in the day. Black Friday, whether you’re off you, and you’re not able to enjoy that time with your family because they have to have people on call all day every day.

557
01:19:32.310 –> 01:19:39.000
In Kelly. I like, I wonder, you know, especially with your work with hallmark if if that’s the type of schedule, you have to maintain. That’s crazy.

558
01:19:40.410 –> 01:19:45.750
Yeah, yeah. And we have multiple overnight pushes

559
01:19:46.770 –> 01:19:47.340
So,

560
01:19:48.360 –> 01:19:57.840
This is the first job I’ve ever had. Where I have overnight phone what conference calls, and it’s fine. It is what it is like a roll said it’s part of the territory.

561
01:19:58.860 –> 01:20:09.900
But there’s definitely this this idea that you do need to be readily available, maybe don’t be where you can’t get to a computer for several hours so like

562
01:20:10.530 –> 01:20:28.470
When we’re driving back to Illinois for my family Christmas and December, I’m probably going to want to make sure that I have like a Wi Fi hotspot with me so that while my husband is driving. I can make changes to robots TXT files or something if there’s an emergency.

563
01:20:29.790 –> 01:20:33.300
But that said, we also kind of fall into certain

564
01:20:36.840 –> 01:20:51.840
Pattern of auto time of year I’m you know I’m not completely hands off for SEO, but it’s more break fix triage and troubleshooting then really active strategy so

565
01:20:53.280 –> 01:21:01.830
Let me ask you this. I’ve got two more questions and then because you’ve been up since 3am want to send you on your way for the for the weekend.

566
01:21:03.480 –> 01:21:19.620
This kind of discussion brings to light a very important point. And you being the mom of a soon to be one year old and myself being a parent of three kids under six one is going to be six months old ones having a birthday this weekend. Yay.

567
01:21:21.780 –> 01:21:24.630
How important is work life balance for you. And how do you maintain it.

568
01:21:25.620 –> 01:21:32.400
Oh so important when I was talking about my layoff experience. I mentioned that

569
01:21:33.210 –> 01:21:48.270
I wasn’t always good about separating who I was. I my identity from my career. And honestly, becoming a mom has kind of it really gave me the final push I needed to to be able to kind of segment my life a little bit more

570
01:21:49.500 –> 01:21:55.350
Obviously as an as a newlywed I put more emphasis on family time with my husband.

571
01:21:57.480 –> 01:22:07.020
But there’s something about the only having two hours a day between the end of the workday, and the baby’s bed time to get to be a family together.

572
01:22:07.440 –> 01:22:21.420
That really makes you set more solid boundaries and work life balance isn’t. I don’t even really necessarily like that term because the two never fully separate it’s about

573
01:22:23.460 –> 01:22:35.070
It’s about finding a way to mesh them together. That’s constructive for you and allows you to care for the people you care about, but still fulfill your responsibilities to your work.

574
01:22:35.640 –> 01:22:43.440
And sometimes that means I get the baby down and then I open my laptop and I’m working again or it means

575
01:22:44.190 –> 01:22:49.290
You know, leaving work earlier coming in late because there’s something going on with daycare.

576
01:22:50.070 –> 01:22:57.900
Like he had his little Halloween party at school. A few weeks ago and I got to go and see him and a little Halloween parade.

577
01:22:58.200 –> 01:23:10.440
dresses and he was like, of course, I’m going to leave work early to go do that. But sometimes that means that you know the the late night time gets redirected it’s really just about

578
01:23:11.700 –> 01:23:23.790
Setting your boundaries, making sure that you’re in the trenches with good people because balance of any sort, is not a possibility. If you don’t have good peers and colleagues that have your back.

579
01:23:25.980 –> 01:23:26.460
Yeah.

580
01:23:27.570 –> 01:23:34.350
But I mean, working in the field. We work in anytime you work in digital there’s a chance that you’re going to have to be on call or

581
01:23:35.910 –> 01:23:36.360
You know,

582
01:23:38.010 –> 01:23:43.380
Some issues going to arise and suddenly you know your weekends gone because

583
01:23:44.400 –> 01:23:46.500
You’re fixing something that broke suddenly

584
01:23:49.170 –> 01:23:59.250
So you just you make it work. And do you take care of yourself and you prioritize your own well being and the well being of your family. My biggest

585
01:24:01.350 –> 01:24:11.040
My biggest like pet peeve with this is people who don’t think that they need to take care of themselves. In addition to taking care of everyone they care about.

586
01:24:13.290 –> 01:24:26.130
I’m a big advocate of you can’t pour out of an empty cup. So in addition to like this two hours and evening. Those are family time. There’s also a certain element of like

587
01:24:26.580 –> 01:24:33.630
Okay. Hey, since my husband’s already up and what’s the baby. I can sleep in a little bit because I need some self care or

588
01:24:34.080 –> 01:24:42.690
You know, here’s a half an hour to take a shower and like just sit for a little while. Just because we’re, we are in this crunch and

589
01:24:43.470 –> 01:25:01.740
If you’re, if you’re not striking that balance of like yourself, your work, your family, and any other obligations, you get burnt out, and then you stop enjoying what you do. Right. And I love what I do. I don’t want it to feel like a chore.

590
01:25:03.630 –> 01:25:05.400
And speaking of loving what you do.

591
01:25:06.720 –> 01:25:14.670
I’m sure that you do this with with people that you work with, especially new people. But one way that I want to start ending this podcast and we did it.

592
01:25:15.540 –> 01:25:27.930
A lot last season. We haven’t done it so much this season is asking the question, if you were to give advice to somebody getting into the industry literally today. This second, what would you say to them.

593
01:25:35.550 –> 01:25:36.660
Relationships.

594
01:25:38.790 –> 01:25:42.690
We may be working on robots all day and we

595
01:25:44.040 –> 01:25:53.190
May interface. Most of the time through computers, but everyone you work with as a person just trying to do their best and

596
01:25:55.350 –> 01:26:05.520
The partners that I’ve worked with at any job freelancing day job agency in house as a client as a vendor.

597
01:26:07.980 –> 01:26:18.690
The end of the day, the most successful campaigns. The most successful sites companies, whatever are the ones with the people that really have each other’s backs.

598
01:26:19.440 –> 01:26:30.090
And understand the value that each other, bring to the table. So I may be the only SEO strategist in my company, but I’m not alone.

599
01:26:31.860 –> 01:26:45.270
I’m I make a point to surround myself with people way smarter than me and I learned from them and I have all of these friends on Twitter because, of course, you make friends on Twitter. When you have 51,000 tweets.

600
01:26:48.750 –> 01:27:02.220
But like really really having strong relationships and being open to relationships with curiosity and empathy. That to me is the secret to

601
01:27:04.080 –> 01:27:12.330
Thriving in your career. And that looks different for everyone, but it comes down to being a decent human

602
01:27:14.430 –> 01:27:22.140
It’s, it’s funny that is different. It’s actually really amazing advice, but it is so different than what other people have

603
01:27:23.370 –> 01:27:25.740
Have said, and it’s very, very true.

604
01:27:26.460 –> 01:27:39.450
I mean I, if you think about literally everything that FCO ends up impacting across the the stream of a company’s evolution.

605
01:27:40.620 –> 01:27:52.650
Like if you’re working in retail. The way that product is name named ends up impacting your website. So then should you be building relationships with the people that name the product.

606
01:27:54.210 –> 01:28:04.860
You know, depending on how your structured, you may be doing the keyword integration yourself or you may be having to train copywriters to do their own keyword research, in which case

607
01:28:05.190 –> 01:28:14.070
They need to trust you and have a good relationship with you or if you’re an agency side or freelancer working with clients.

608
01:28:16.080 –> 01:28:23.970
If they don’t trust you. You’re never going to get anything done, especially if they’re handing over the keys to the whole kingdom to you so

609
01:28:24.510 –> 01:28:35.520
It’s, it’s really about relationships and for all of the digital we do at the end of the day it’s another person sitting up that other computer. Absolutely.

610
01:28:35.610 –> 01:28:50.850
everybody’s always everybody’s always dealing with something and empathy. Empathy is so hard in it, but such a valuable skill and relationships, it’s just good life advice. That’s what we’re. That’s what we’re given here on the page to podcasts life advice.

611
01:28:51.930 –> 01:28:58.800
Anyways, Kelly Thank you for coming on. I we totally appreciate it. We know you you’ve

612
01:28:59.940 –> 01:29:09.420
Extra appreciate it, in light of the fact that you’ve been up since 3am but really appreciate it was great conversation. Thank you so much and go. Have a good weekend.

613
01:29:10.050 –> 01:29:10.830
Gonna happen.

614
01:29:11.880 –> 01:29:12.300
So much

615
01:29:13.740 –> 01:29:14.730
This is great.

616
01:29:16.110 –> 01:29:16.590
Thank you.

#28: Martin Splitt

We chat with Martin Splitt, Webmaster Trends Analyst at Google about his background, how he got to Google, talk challenges, deep-dive into Javascript and more.

#27: Simon Cox

Listen to audio only

Episode Summary

We chat with UK technical SEO Simon Cox. Simon is the founder of Cox & Co Creative along with his wife.

He is a web standards evangelist, content management specialist, amateur bread baker, member of the LondonEErs ExpressionEngine Group and a founding member of the Croydon Creatives social group.

We cover:

  • His early days as a graphic designer
  • How he turned into a technical SEO during his 20 years within the banking industry
  • His recent transition to owning his own company.

Other topics:

  • We react to the new page speed reports in Google Search Console and other SEO news
  • Deep dive on replatforms, redesigns, and website migrations.

Visit Simon’s personal website.

Transcript

1
00:00:01.410 –> 00:00:11.910
Hey everybody this is Jacob Stoops and we are here with episode 27 I’m here with my brand new co host. Mr. Jeff, Louella how’s it going

2
00:00:12.960 –> 00:00:13.860
Doing pretty well.

3
00:00:15.480 –> 00:00:29.640
And for the first first time it’s me co host and also we have a special guest. AND, TODAY’S SPECIAL GUEST IS GOING TO BE Mr. Simon Cox from across the pond. How you doing, Simon.

4
00:00:30.090 –> 00:00:33.360
Are doing very well thank you chaps and lovely to see you and he

5
00:00:34.170 –> 00:00:45.270
So I know nothing about locations in the UK, other than I believe you’re in London. So I’m just a stupid American. So where exactly are you located

6
00:00:45.720 –> 00:00:46.470
Not in London.

7
00:00:46.890 –> 00:00:47.280
Now I didn’t

8
00:00:48.600 –> 00:01:06.630
Know, I used to live in the south of London. I moved about 30 miles south of that the UK is about the size of Manhattan. So distances here while they’re a big to us a tiny to you guys. You’ll travel for a day or two, just to visit SOMEBODY, YEAH. An hour or more on the train for us is forever.

9
00:01:07.980 –> 00:01:08.250
So,

10
00:01:08.280 –> 00:01:12.630
Yeah, he was quite big. But yes, I’m so let’s do you south of

11
00:01:13.710 –> 00:01:14.610
London town.

12
00:01:15.630 –> 00:01:21.060
In a small village about 4000 people called Linfield has a very famous horse racing course.

13
00:01:22.200 –> 00:01:25.860
Which my office, he overlooks. Very nice. That’s

14
00:01:25.890 –> 00:01:31.500
Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty cool. I feel like everything is a it’s just generally smaller over in

15
00:01:32.850 –> 00:01:36.660
I don’t do I say Europe, European Union, not so much with Brexit.

16
00:01:36.930 –> 00:01:38.160
Yeah, you can say

17
00:01:38.550 –> 00:01:43.620
Because even if we had Brexit happens was still part of Europe on the geographical

18
00:01:43.890 –> 00:01:44.940
Right, right, right. You know,

19
00:01:45.030 –> 00:01:48.180
Unless somebody digs a great big trench and shifts as anything anything

20
00:01:50.400 –> 00:01:51.180
Dubai Europe.

21
00:01:52.200 –> 00:01:58.650
So let’s jump right into it. So like the point of this podcast is going to continue to be

22
00:01:59.160 –> 00:02:13.890
The origin stories of great SEOs as well as like the day to day like this is what it’s actually like. So Simon take us through your career, who you are, how you got into SEO, like, Tell us, tell us about yourself.

23
00:02:14.430 –> 00:02:17.100
SEO. I saw, I thought this was a church podcast.

24
00:02:17.700 –> 00:02:17.970
So,

25
00:02:19.470 –> 00:02:20.040
They see

26
00:02:21.900 –> 00:02:22.380
Under

27
00:02:22.470 –> 00:02:23.100
Google

28
00:02:24.810 –> 00:02:25.500
Right, so

29
00:02:27.330 –> 00:02:28.200
I thought that was very funny.

30
00:02:30.180 –> 00:02:31.680
And I started off.

31
00:02:32.730 –> 00:02:41.940
From school career wise you know college and I did technical illustration, our college and some graphic design, except for the four years of that. So there’s a green level, but not actual degree.

32
00:02:43.170 –> 00:02:51.330
From there I was working in studios creating our footprint, etc. This is years before the internet happened to the public as associate with the army, etc.

33
00:02:52.110 –> 00:03:00.480
Before that, um, and I was one of the first people in the country to use quality express the Page Layout program. And that got me up to London.

34
00:03:01.110 –> 00:03:09.690
I’m working there and had hunted all over the place. And eventually, after about two months. I got headhunted by middle and bank because they wanted somebody to

35
00:03:10.530 –> 00:03:21.300
Do their artwork for them things like checkbooks and credit cards and stuff like that. So I started working for those for them and within four years or so.

36
00:03:22.350 –> 00:03:30.300
I became aware of the internet becoming something I was already on bulletin boards. I was a big cyberpunk novel reader at the time.

37
00:03:31.140 –> 00:03:46.470
So it’s very much into that was looking at future stuff and and i thought this web seems really interesting. It looks a lot more interesting in the bulletin boards I was getting involved with sorry what managed to get myself into a pipex I don’t even remember pipex they were

38
00:03:48.420 –> 00:04:01.770
an ISP, the time that they disappeared. Many, many years ago they were doing call some HTML. So I managed to persuade my boss at the time to send me off on this. God knows how I did that. It was very nice guy. I think I took him out for a beer.

39
00:04:03.660 –> 00:04:12.870
And built my first website in about 96 beginning to end of 95 or maybe something like five he got six Batman.

40
00:04:14.580 –> 00:04:15.510
And the rest is history.

41
00:04:16.770 –> 00:04:34.380
And as far as SEO goes, I really started optimizing for Alta Vista, which was the big thing at the time. Yeah, good old days. So there’s like keywords bang last it healthy and there was about 400 websites at the time. So we all need each other, which is good.

42
00:04:36.840 –> 00:04:37.770
And

43
00:04:40.290 –> 00:04:40.950
We got from that.

44
00:04:42.420 –> 00:04:50.550
Really oh actually wasn’t doing that full time. Let’s also doing graphic designer our work and stuff and running a built up a team doing that for me to about

45
00:04:52.290 –> 00:04:52.980
Eight people

46
00:04:54.390 –> 00:04:58.170
And I had a bit of a falling out with a new boss, they brought in.

47
00:04:59.190 –> 00:05:06.390
And she wasn’t she was completely out of my depth and she and I didn’t go well. So after about two weeks of that I

48
00:05:07.410 –> 00:05:10.140
Was a good friend of mine in the in the business and suddenly

49
00:05:11.220 –> 00:05:28.380
There’s this job going in group HBC group because middle band can age group at that point and they wanted somebody to design and build HBC group.com which in 99 became hbc.com

50
00:05:30.300 –> 00:05:38.550
Once the group one have been bought out by God knows how much they spent on that it wasn’t that much in those days, compared with now, but I’m sure it was a lot. They

51
00:05:39.210 –> 00:05:53.940
They couldn’t get your HBC net was owned by hand to Street Baptist Church in the States. So we were, we were told a lot to try and get that it was politically a bit sensitive, so leave that that’d be fine.

52
00:05:55.230 –> 00:05:56.130
So yeah, so I

53
00:05:57.390 –> 00:06:07.230
Picked up hbc.com Oh, I’d be gripping abc.com and I was literally building a website walking around the color to the HR team like the PR team.

54
00:06:07.950 –> 00:06:16.950
To get the what’s going on marketing and stuff, etc. And never give me your stories and what’s going on HBC group at the time and I would literally hand coded into

55
00:06:18.330 –> 00:06:24.060
Some notepads he got three Weaver was very happy with that because I could do things better and quicker.

56
00:06:24.480 –> 00:06:30.630
And I would literally pass the pages off to somebody in it. Who would then FTP up to the server somewhere. I was led to touch that bit.

57
00:06:31.620 –> 00:06:49.410
But everything else is just me by myself. Ah, yeah, good old days when you could you could do everything touched off. So that’s how I got into it and years and years of that running hbc.com for about 10 years and then we

58
00:06:50.460 –> 00:07:03.870
Built a bigger team pass off so that people are they kind of sent me back. I said, right, would you want to do. And I said, Well, I want to build an SEO team in LA. You sure yeah so built the socio team around the world. I had people in China, the Philippines.

59
00:07:05.880 –> 00:07:15.660
Sri Lanka and Egypt and it did have some of the states, we have a while as well. And we did huge amounts of SEO for the loss of the HBC group.

60
00:07:16.890 –> 00:07:20.730
Which is very interesting stuff very corporate very interesting

61
00:07:23.460 –> 00:07:26.070
And that’s it. Two years ago, left HSBC

62
00:07:27.720 –> 00:07:41.550
amicably to pay me off to go away, which is nice. I’ve been wanting to to go freelance for years and I’ve been doing stuff. And as you do in your bedroom at night. I’m a bit always doing that since back in the 90s.

63
00:07:42.630 –> 00:07:50.280
Doing bits on the side because it helped me with my job like it’s the only way to really learn to understand, especially with technical SEO. If you can’t build websites.

64
00:07:51.030 –> 00:07:59.520
What are you doing, doing, take place. Yeah, you need to really understand how the whole thing works above JavaScript, which is complete devils language and shouldn’t be an

65
00:08:01.950 –> 00:08:09.870
Identity JavaScript. So the proper programming. I don’t know how to do that. I could just do markup. So that was it a

66
00:08:11.130 –> 00:08:17.310
Left HSBC and to work with my wife. Now we just set ourselves up a little bitty company. And we’ve got all sorts of interesting

67
00:08:19.650 –> 00:08:32.670
Clients from literally from the flower shop up in the village, which does rather well on the local search to web or some agencies doing International Hotel SEO and other things that come along.

68
00:08:34.920 –> 00:08:35.400
Which is great.

69
00:08:36.780 –> 00:08:43.950
So to kind of deviate. I have it on good authority that you are a train enthusiast.

70
00:08:44.190 –> 00:08:46.200
And above. Yeah, be careful here.

71
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That will for a lot of people put me in a subset of weirdos and

72
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I’m a nerd and geek, but I’m not one I build yeah I build narrow gauge model railway trains.

73
00:09:06.000 –> 00:09:17.490
Which are to scale. And there’s a there’s a great deal of precision in the men, it’s, it’s not playing trains and stuff is it’s modeling and I actually prefer the scenery more than I do, that the logos and the coaches.

74
00:09:18.390 –> 00:09:33.720
Open up my fellow society members him his, his podcast is one or two tonight. But yeah, it’s it’s creating miniature versions of interesting see and I i am i model narrow gauge. For me, it’s a lot more interesting. The standard gauge

75
00:09:35.010 –> 00:09:48.360
Because of the, the actual, real life situations with a world with so varied that know to navigate lines or like even in the States, whether there was plenty of navigating lines as well. So there was quite a few over here and UK

76
00:09:49.710 –> 00:09:54.210
Yeah. So I do that and that’s for me that’s really good because that’s what I work on digital all day.

77
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Doing the Madre stuff is it’s I do stuff like sobering which allows me to burn my hands quite badly.

78
00:10:02.310 –> 00:10:07.650
And in hell Knox’s and dangerous poisonous few years sorts of things which are can’t do

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Digital level. So yeah, lots of

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Hands on stuff on it. So it’s more atoms and pixels as a friend of mine, often said, Yeah.

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I build mini drones fly around and where the SPV goggles and like a freestyle and I have a whole workshop behind me. Also, and

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You know, soldering and things like that. Like it’s it’s fun, like I kind of go through there. Like I work on a computer all day and it’s kind of good to get away and work with your hands and

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Build, you know, whether it’s, you know, trains or again my mind like flying trains, in a way, I’m not building the scenery and things around that but I’m also

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I get to kind of create art that way. And my art. What I do that as making videos, trying to sync my you know freestyle flying a drone up with music and not your photography type of drone where you just hover and take a picture. I’m going

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On our

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Side, like I learned to be a pilot a little bit though. I hate to call myself a pilot because that really makes real pilots like

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A real pilot

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Yeah, so, and you don’t have any any problems flying over

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Can we go kindergartener schools and stuff like that.

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Yeah, like I’m usually going to office parks on the weekend and and flying through there, that the negative that is everything’s concrete around it. So if I

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Mess up I’m usually breaking something. But that’s part of re fixing everything and they’re made of carbon fiber. They’re pretty pretty strong but

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That’s awesome. I kind of come from a similar background to you where I was like kind of a webmaster built building websites from the ground up. I’ve

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Spent tons of time like because I was a designer started with the school for Ashley 3D animation.

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Realize it stunk at that I had Photoshop.

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And having Photoshop back then when you’re a designer and the designers that that were real designers at the time didn’t really see the web as an outlet because you know you have different sized screens different pixel with like, you know, if I wasn’t giving them the exact

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You know dimensions, how many points is this font. Like, I don’t know, it’s

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18 pixels.

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The

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Fascinating thing you’re talking about it because I went through the whole of that process where

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Graphic designers would saying well web isn’t a real thing. It’s, it’s all over the place.

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But the disciplines that we put into the web over the years actually now match what we were doing in graphic design before the web came along.

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So, you know, we’re doing exactly the same thing. Yes. We’ve given it a different set of names for layouts, etc. But basically we’re doing the same thing.

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So I think is a really good time to go. Now go back and visit

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Great graphic design from the 60s and 70s.

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And see how we can implement that into websites because nobody is everybody’s using WordPress themes which some bloke in his Hungarian bedrooms designing and for $10 or whatever it

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Is you use the writer work with a list apart. And I know that agenda that ground. I used to work with Jason Santa Maria and Dan mall in the past at a different company and

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They really one thing they would teach me just the design aspect of things right. I was doing development.

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They were real designers and also did front end development. So it really taught me like I understood designed to an extent, but never went to school for design and just working with them and

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How they meticulously go through fonts and how headers look and just the usability and readability of stuff really helped me out with a lot of my just creativity in general and make

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Things working with brilliant people like that you’ll pick up stuff.

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Without without a shadow of doubt. So all that stuff will come through and you’ll, you’ll be able to take that I that for for many years I was working in marketing departments in an HSBC and I have a

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Huge knowledge in marketing, but I’ve never done marketing my life. But I know what I need to do to make it work for marketing.

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If no, never done. I’ve never been paid to do

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How do

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You pick that stuff up.

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I guess I feel like

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A bit of a psycho in that. My hobby is running a podcast. Like, that’s what I do is I have my day job when I could be building, building drones or planes are being a master breadmaker whatever

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Guy and get some people

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I like mowing the yard.

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Oh man, so like I guess you you were add it as SPC, right. I feel like I’m like mismatching the

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Abbreviations PC.

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HST now you’re now. You’re confusing me.

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Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation was the original one. But when they bought middle and bank and shifted from Hong Kong to UK

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For reasons that China was going to take back Hong Kong and they want to shift all their

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assets such as the UK UK government. So you need to change your name and not be the Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation. So they just bent HSBC, the amount of people that I know they still call it ages be is untrue, even people that have been working as

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Agencies work of ages beats for years 22 meetings with him. It’s like he has been so you don’t really know is that, well, the

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But that’s not the problem. They’re not that interested in, then they’re not that well known in the in the States, as I would like to think is massive in the UK and the rest of the world but states that are there, but

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You like there’s a lot of lot of competition, a lot of competition, what I was gonna say

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With two things. How did you get there many different disciplines of getting into SEO. How did you find that you fell into more of the technical side. And then, what made you you know you were there for a long, long time.

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Well,

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He wanted want to jump out on your own.

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Well, frankly, I did only choice jumping on where

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There were some changes. But I wanted to do that for years and just didn’t have the guts today.

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So how I fell into it because being a webmaster in the early days, you did everything literally everything. So part of that discipline was

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SEO, but we didn’t know what it’s called SEO in the search engine. Let’s get some spell today and that sort of came later on. And there were a lot of other things with more important in those days like validation of code, which nobody cares anymore, but it was a big thing.

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As you said, the second bit is

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Well, the, the, the first bit was jumping in becoming a technical SEO. Like, how did you

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Yeah, you know, I did that.

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So the technical side is because I was building websites and

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More home than that HSBC

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I was building my website and other sort of small clients, etc. I got to know content management systems really well. And I was actually to the point while specifying them internally and HSBC and then

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Looking at what we get out of content management system. We went through a lot HSBC, most of which we never up to what we really need it, but I’m saying that and

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Understanding how websites work and what you need to get them to really

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Give the information to people when it got to the point where they said, What did you want to do. I, I sat back and thought, well, actually.

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What we don’t have an HSBC is an SEO team and we didn’t I was the only one at the time and I said that we should do more of this because it’s important, and that was that was back in

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2010, I think, and I’ve been doing SEO for years, but not as a prime discipline.

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Because part of wising as they let me build this team up and

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Yeah, HSBC is a massive brand worldwide.

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And we lived off that and they really didn’t take any notice of SEO at all. And I think that’s changed certainly was changing the last two years I was there and people realize that the disruptors are coming in.

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PayPal etc and getting banking licenses and there was potential and stuff like bitcoin and other stuff coming along, which would

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disrupt it and and the big players like HBC really had to change the game. So there were people behind us. And yet, we need to get some SEO into our sites, then, to make sure we keep our dominant position.

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And it was it was tricky. He was, it wasn’t tricky keeping the site’s ranking well that was no problem at all, because the brand was so strong.

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It was tricky getting stuff done. The big old corporate you can’t get anything done troubles you know

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Lots of that.

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Were some of your biggest challenges like working in the banking industry. Right. It’s a there’s I know in the States. And I’m sure everywhere in the world. It’s you’re messing with people’s money, right. So, and I know you weren’t in charge of their money, but

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Being in charge of the sites.

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I know there’s lots of loopholes and things like that that you can’t really say stuff or do stuff.

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Yeah, I, I understood and

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Black Hat stuff and what people are trying to do to get this stuff to rank.

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We could never do anything like that simply

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Well, for many reasons, the PR out of it would be terrible and either been kicked out immediately. But then we have things like the BMW.

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Europe been to Europe in

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2006 maybe a bit late in that build a set of gateway pages to always gateways to their site and got direct from Google for about six months.

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Go big slap. And that was a big wake up call for a lot of people in the biggest reason why a lot of companies, big companies were using agencies still and hadn’t brought things in house so we obviously we had that. And so when that happens, we were like, yeah, we’re not doing that.

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Because that’s a bad thing to do. And there are lots of things about banking that that people say all the bad bankers, except, sort of, there’s a lot of very, very good, honest people in banking. The fastpass drugs people I work with, not everybody, but the vast majority away with very good

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And morally very good right moral compass. So in that situation where, like, we’re not just want to do that sort of thing.

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But then people out there and we’re like, well, we can’t do this. So we had to we have to be creative and work within was terrible in the law and banking regulation.

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Throughout the world is it’s really tough. I would spend days with with our lawyers on calls and, you know, three, four hour meetings every day for weeks, going through stuff to launch site. It was horrible.

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Because the lowest really those night back in those days just didn’t know anything about the internet, I would like to do now. But back in here at all. And yet, explain everything. Now, there was this. Okay, that’s fine.

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I used to work a lot in the pharmaceutical industry and

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I remember having to print out websites and fax them to lawyers, so that they could

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critique it and I’m just like, here’s a web address. Hey, just go to the website, but they needed it in print, so that they can circle and right things and

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The couple banks that I have worked with, weren’t they weren’t so bad. I guess I didn’t do a ton. I was just really more of them wording right. I couldn’t say

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You know, free checking if it wasn’t totally free. And you know, I used a lot of their terminologies and yeah lawyers were involved every step of the way. When we anytime we want to update content.

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Was also lucky in my life that I’ve got to work with some big brands, where I didn’t have to do any of that.

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You know link building tactics that would get companies in trouble. It’s I see every time there’s a big update I of course everyone gets a little, you know,

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Anxious when it happens, but at the same time, I like I know that I’m out there spending, you know, $20,000 a month building links done it before I actually had some clients that wanted to do big things like that.

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In the banking industry, but it was because there was a big merger coming and they wanted to own like the term your free savings account.

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Great before the merger so that they could say that. So they spent gave us tons of money which was fun to go and try to do that. But we just knew it was going to be a bad day for them at the end and

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We didn’t know the merger was coming, they did. And that’s kind of was the deal that was going on. So,

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But they were also one of those companies that were part of the collapse here in the States and merged and got bailed out. So that was one of the, you know, some of the fun times that we’ve had here in the banking industry in the States.

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Speaking

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You know the lawyers STILL SORRY, YOUR LAWYER still use faxes today.

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I don’t know. What’s the matter, but they really I think the fact that it’s really, really difficult to intercept will change your facts because it is a facsimile they still like faxes and they still live in well do it secret. Oh, sorry, don’t you say

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No, it’s okay. I was just gonna say it’s funny that you guys bring up kind of the legal aspect. It’s not something

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That people think about, Okay, think about SEO and I have been with one of my clients in legal update health for about the last month where we have

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A lot of content that is mission critical to doing what I need to do on the SEO side and what we need to do on the SEO side, but we’ve been in three or four weeks of

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Legal updates and with the client has kind of a small digital team. So, because that lawyers take priority priority that has definitely been prioritized ahead of my little meager seo, seo changes such as funny that that come comes up.

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And I’ve been lawyers like where we submitted a site and we have a deadline that like when I was in the pharmaceutical world that a drug was launching

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We need certain things done. So that like 1130 at night, the lawyer might have finally got to it and spit it out, and I would be at back at the office.

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Working on things that that was before kind of remote work was actually easier.

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But being back at the office just waiting for that facts and once it was done, we had like 35 minutes to get it done. We had like a certain window. It’s kind of like we were launching a rocket. There was a. So you have this window to get something done.

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So Simon before we kind of move on to the to the news house a house kind of the new business going, what are, what are some of the things you’re kind of running into there.

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That’s, yeah. Because we are very small. This has been a wife and she does a lot of marketing type stuff and business.

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Molding business center and we kind of picking up all sorts of work. So there’s me off doing International Hotel SEO and she’s talking to the florist on the radar.

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Organizations any other other way eccentric. It’s fascinating. And I love it because it is so so varied and I’ve got to say, working for ourselves is is great.

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Really we should be working 24 hours a day. So it’s like clients, but we don’t we stick our feet up. And we have a good time and we just don’t take our work because it’s there, we just

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If we like somebody will work with them if we don’t like that we just tell them to say thank you very much. Hey, try this person. So we don’t have a big roster clients we we do, we do pick and choose. And I’ve got to say we have in a very lucky position to be able to do that.

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Most people can’t but but I’m old life amounts of money over the years and it’s it’s it’s payback time and it’s

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It’s going well and we’re enjoying it.

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That’s great.

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Yeah, that’s a you know a lot of a lot of times that I’ve thought about, about the same thing, kind of going out of my own and I like you. Hip, hip, not to this point, then willing to to take the take the risk and it sounds like you may have been kind of forced into taking the risk

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Was but to be honest, I’ve been waiting for it for years. And because I knew that that leaving a bank. I’m going to get substantially good payoff.

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Which is gave me the, the, the, the fighting fun to actually set myself up and or ourselves up and go freelance and I don’t you can’t do without that you can’t just hope because you got movies and stuff to pay, which we will have

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It’s difficult. You’ve got to have a

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Treasure chest of money you save that to make sure that you’re okay. If it doesn’t come in or people don’t pay, etc. It’s it can get very difficult

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To the car breaks down or

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Playing drop something on your roof. I’m I’m under the get week flight path here. So I was worried about

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Lewis.

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dropping off planes.

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For the houses cheap.

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Jeff, it wasn’t any

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Awesome. Well, there was, it wasn’t like a huge week this week in in SEO news, but there were some cool things that were out there, one

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That I’m personally digging through and enjoying is the new version of Screaming Frog was released version 12 had some really good things updated into it and

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One of the things I

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Love that I struggle with, but always was trying to find like the best way to report on speed.

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Like, how can I get a speed report throughout the whole site. And there’s many different ways, you know, with different tools, but now Screaming Frog. Another way to add that so

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It looks into Lighthouse metrics and uses the the crux data to be able to get some of that UX data pulled in from Google insights. So on that one awesome thing that with it.

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If you had a chance to look through it at all. Simon

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Yeah, I think that’s absolutely fantastic.

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I have a little web watcher that just watches. If there’s any changes to the release page. So, and you said it was coming up before we Tweeted it

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And I think it pings off every two hours. So as soon as they age radio. But yeah, great and I download immediately. So yeah, Australia. Now what’s going on and

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A month ago, the ad is structured data testing into the tool, which was a great step. And I think they’ve taken what they’ve learned from that and said, Well,

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Let’s go for speed testing with with lighthouse and whilst I’ve, I’ve, I’ve run quite a few calls this week with with that and got the lighthouse.

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So I have no idea what it means, yet it just throws a wrench.

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We’re gonna go. This one’s really bad. And this one’s really good. Why, I don’t know, and it’s a case of going through and looking and seeing how it really helps. But being able to look at a whole site.

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That quickly and it really is fast and bring that data back from my house is fantastic, which means I don’t have to pay into Chrome Developer anymore and per page by page and bang, it’s there and you can really just dive into what’s

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What’s looking not how it should do.

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Is a really good thing. So yeah, literally before

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We came on air. I was doing something I was, I had a problem getting because I switched over to the database way of saving the files in there as well.

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Which is super because you can structure it and organize it by folder as well so you can drag and drop the stuff in there. And I thought that was like, I need to open up some old

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Screaming Frog databases. I’ve got me. Sorry files that I’ve got.

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For for sites. How do I do that because there’s no open anymore. It’s just the call button. But there’s an import feature further down in the file thing because I paying off a support, support emails.

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And Dan came back fairly quickly. So there’s an important thing and it works, works perfectly. And you can bring that when you when you then import your old

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Files. They actually, it adds it to the database and is there. That’s great. It is really, really good and I haven’t tested here, but this is an export one as well. So imagine

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Where stuff gets old in your database starts get rather beacon and gets two gigabyte speak and laptops screaming with desire to have a bit more space. You can probably export stuff out to an archive somewhere. He says good

237
00:31:15.720 –> 00:31:22.170
No, no liquor, you know, one of their competitors. Now sampled and sleep. One thing I like about light bulb.

238
00:31:23.340 –> 00:31:33.300
And not even like what the tool scrawls and things like that. Is that is kind of a work off that database mentality. Also, and then you can do comparisons. Oh, yeah. Last crawl versus crawl.

239
00:31:34.320 –> 00:31:38.730
I don’t think this version. Screaming Frog does that. But the database storage is awesome. Like, I know it’s

240
00:31:39.870 –> 00:31:56.640
Having the same Screaming Frog files. It’s a pain in the butt. The only good thing with that is you can share them, but the negative with that is like I’m sharing like a 20 gigabyte file we have in our office machine is dedicated for crawling 64 gigabytes of RAM and

241
00:31:57.690 –> 00:32:11.340
Things like that. But now it’s you know now that seems like overkill because the database storage bottle, you know, I mean, you still need RAM, they’ll run it, but it’s, you know, you don’t need 64 gigabytes of memory to just run 100,000 URL site anymore so

242
00:32:11.970 –> 00:32:18.240
That’s a good, good point. Because I don’t share it in my files because my wife just went know what to do with them. Yeah, this will

243
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Read this.

244
00:32:21.930 –> 00:32:26.580
Yet she wants me to run through that and stuff and analyze it and then tell her what to tell the client.

245
00:32:27.210 –> 00:32:32.340
She has no idea to and I haven’t got real to share them with so I’m quite lucky that but yes and

246
00:32:32.970 –> 00:32:46.440
That’s an interesting point, actually, if you if you are keeping that stuff in inside your database yourself. How do you share with with colleagues, but that’s the same cycle and bust cycles brilliant and I love Sai Baba, especially the guys

247
00:32:48.000 –> 00:33:04.830
That run it, who invited me to the UK surge was last year, we had a very, very jolly time, so beverages, and it was. And it’s a great tool. Really, really good tool that it kind of breaks boundaries and the way the offense will come out with the

248
00:33:06.000 –> 00:33:09.510
Year. The graph mapping things which really useful. Everybody say

249
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Yeah, now

250
00:33:13.740 –> 00:33:20.910
It’s a great tool. And I love it. Just, you know, just because of that reflect the graphing of it. They now kind of give the ratings of the different sections.

251
00:33:21.240 –> 00:33:27.960
Which is kind of what I usually take the report and make a reading off of that, like, of what I think about it so that they add that in there, which is great.

252
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Yeah.

253
00:33:29.520 –> 00:33:34.080
I am personally excited about the time savings.

254
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I spent in I have my own like special spreadsheet, which pulls in web page tests paid Google page speed insights GT metrics, basically all my favorite speed tools and not having to go one by one by one. I don’t know what I’m going to do with all of the extra

255
00:33:54.450 –> 00:33:59.130
Extra time that I’m going to have on my hands. Something else useful but um

256
00:33:59.250 –> 00:34:00.090
Well, analyze it.

257
00:34:00.810 –> 00:34:07.350
Well yeah, I don’t know if you guys find this, but I’ve been like battling for I feel like now years

258
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With respect to site speed and the battle is that everybody knows it’s important

259
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Nobody wants to do anything about it. And it literally makes me pull my hair out especially when I’ve gone to, like, huge organizations and say, Hey, guys.

260
00:34:23.130 –> 00:34:34.740
Improve your speed by like a second and you can make like a couple million extra dollars. No, they just laughed me out of the room. But no, no, I don’t know how you guys feel about that I

261
00:34:35.010 –> 00:34:45.930
Constantly had that problem and in HSBC we have everything was organized in such a way that our development teams basically were part of it and had a book and

262
00:34:46.710 –> 00:34:57.960
Every time I went to them and says we need this. That book was shot for the next year. So it’s so difficult to get resource to actually go and build anything we wanted a really good example of that.

263
00:34:58.530 –> 00:35:03.480
One of the last projects I worked on before I left, and then what’s in it for about two years was

264
00:35:04.200 –> 00:35:18.180
The HBC asset management set of websites. It was one website with lots of countries have sub folders within that. And then once the spit them out into sub domain so into local domains which made a lot of sense at the time.

265
00:35:19.830 –> 00:35:34.380
Whether it does now. And I don’t know how to take care, they’re not paying me. So we had about 32 websites and in a multitude of languages and I can’t remember what they all work together. So I remember there was probably 20 different kind of us probably slightly less than that.

266
00:35:35.400 –> 00:35:48.330
But we shifted over from the content management system we have a job. It was an IBM. One more comment, but it was web sphere, I think, with a vision on the back end of it or something over to cycle.

267
00:35:49.980 –> 00:35:59.640
And as part of that. So the key let’s let’s go a source of hreflang tool. So as we go and deploy each site, we can add all the hreflang then for each

268
00:36:00.780 –> 00:36:07.440
Each site because basically the content was the same one every, every site, but just in different languages for the different countries, etc. And a slight variations

269
00:36:08.310 –> 00:36:20.250
In content here and there and stuff and they went to six months when they come back to come do it for another year. So what we did, we went and built our own Excel macros spreadsheets and would manually.

270
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Push this stuff out and then we would actually push it up in the content management system as a text file or XML file.

271
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Via the CMS until Google where I hate ref Lang files were because they were under the law place.

272
00:36:36.720 –> 00:36:43.200
And you could do that. And that’s really IF YOU LOOK AT THE SIZE YOU GO WE HAVEN’T GOTTEN A traveling. Yes, we have. You just can’t see it.

273
00:36:43.710 –> 00:36:52.140
It’s done it. I literally and it’s still there now. So there’s been at least three and a half years and that resource still hasn’t been made available.

274
00:36:53.070 –> 00:36:58.020
Yeah, because I wanted all there banging the drum. Right. But that’s a really good example of of

275
00:36:58.860 –> 00:37:05.310
Trying to get results in any big corporation or any small corporations, to be honest, I’ve worked in other places. Since then, that’s

276
00:37:06.030 –> 00:37:13.290
Where getting resources just very, very difficult for SEO. It’s not seen as being the bottom line.

277
00:37:13.860 –> 00:37:18.840
Bringing money in. I think that’s changing. I think people are realizing a lot more SEOs are coming in the house.

278
00:37:19.440 –> 00:37:25.230
Of last year’s. And that’s I think that’s because companies are realizing they need to spend money on SEO.

279
00:37:25.860 –> 00:37:36.360
And it. I’ve seen situations where they’ve actually had dedicated Deb’s sitting with an SEO team and where that works. It works really, really well. But even in those situations.

280
00:37:37.230 –> 00:37:50.340
Getting resource time is is difficult because there’s there’s minds are. I know a lot of there’s no work with them. There is there elsewhere. They don’t care about SEO. It’s like a little tape. It’s like accessibility. Same thing. It’s like to do that.

281
00:37:51.630 –> 00:38:00.540
Yeah, implementation, it’s the biggest challenge we face. And the funny thing is like we are struggling all the time with implementation.

282
00:38:01.200 –> 00:38:17.220
But one thing I constantly, constantly get is, why are the results like x or what’s going on with this. Why isn’t this moving or whatever. And it’s, it’s not a valid answer to point back to, well, you didn’t implement my recommendations.

283
00:38:17.490 –> 00:38:18.540
Or it took six months.

284
00:38:18.960 –> 00:38:21.060
Or whatever. So, but

285
00:38:21.630 –> 00:38:29.070
Also the competition is doing the same thing at the same time. Last Google’s changing everything every single day. Several multiple times a day as well.

286
00:38:30.360 –> 00:38:39.300
It gets very, very difficult. And there are there are many marketing departments are still hang on rankings and listen. Everything I will rank is going up today.

287
00:38:39.810 –> 00:38:58.800
There was a there’s a UK company called strategic who brought out a tool last year that did hourly tracking our rankings and I was lucky to get on the beat on there and it was absolutely mad. Yeah, we do small tests about either 20 keywords something and

288
00:39:00.150 –> 00:39:01.740
You could see the top three

289
00:39:03.330 –> 00:39:12.690
Terms with were bantering a little bit, but the further you go away from the top three it was all over the place. And Google is just testing constantly

290
00:39:13.380 –> 00:39:25.650
Which means any ranking tool that comes back and says, Oh, you’re at this position, say it depends. When they go and test it, because it’ll averaging it they’re not testing every minute. And every day and saying this is this is roughly where you know not all

291
00:39:26.520 –> 00:39:27.930
When and where. Yeah.

292
00:39:29.160 –> 00:39:32.550
So I don’t believe rankings at all anymore, it is good that what we clients.

293
00:39:33.570 –> 00:39:34.380
See, number one.

294
00:39:35.700 –> 00:39:43.830
It is tough. I and I’m lucky that I have some clients where rankings aren’t. I mean, we like to. I like to look at them as a whole and see if things are moving but

295
00:39:45.030 –> 00:39:57.960
I tried to get away from like those single terms that we want to do well on. I do have one that has a very specific term and he checks it every day. And if he’s, he doesn’t need to be number one. He just needs to be in the top five. And he’s happy.

296
00:39:58.890 –> 00:39:59.340
It’s good.

297
00:39:59.700 –> 00:40:10.860
Yeah, and it’s because it’s a it’s a term that’s near and dear. It’s like there it’s kind of a product that they made. But other people sell it. So if he’s getting beat up by Amazon. He doesn’t care. But he’s wants to be up there.

298
00:40:11.490 –> 00:40:16.260
Because either way, he makes the money, but it’s just one of those ego terms like on that that they’d like to do

299
00:40:17.280 –> 00:40:24.270
But yeah, I try to, I try to stay away from. We run ranking reports, of course, but I think definitely like to look at them as a whole.

300
00:40:24.690 –> 00:40:34.440
And like, here’s a group of terms, maybe for a category. And is that category doing better or worse, but there’s so many variables like with personalization and stuff that it’s really hard to

301
00:40:35.070 –> 00:40:40.770
To really take take that information and say this is exactly what is happening right now. Right, so

302
00:40:41.430 –> 00:40:43.440
I’ve been doing a lot of local over the last year and

303
00:40:45.300 –> 00:40:52.740
Savor the florist shop up the radio and it’s fascinating. If you can get up into the map pack or three sometimes four

304
00:40:53.670 –> 00:41:10.470
You can really increase your business a lot especially local because people just don’t look be on that map pack and getting in line and working well it’s it’s a skill. It’s just little bits and pieces that help, but I have I’m frustrated one particular small company.

305
00:41:11.520 –> 00:41:20.760
Who I’m as frustrated me and I’m doing loads of work for free on this because I literally just want to make him. Number one, he just constantly two and three in the map pack.

306
00:41:21.840 –> 00:41:36.900
against somebody who is constant number one whose website is the worst websites in my life. This is in for until very recently. He’s each one said title there wasn’t even a product or anything. I was just, just like ranking.

307
00:41:37.920 –> 00:41:39.780
Or something like that. Yeah, it’s just so annoying.

308
00:41:40.830 –> 00:41:41.100
Yeah.

309
00:41:42.330 –> 00:41:49.170
It just, you know, just when you think you know everything, and there’s like a site like that cycles is working. Yeah.

310
00:41:49.980 –> 00:41:53.730
That’s the same with all of us as well. It’s everything’s changing so much

311
00:41:54.780 –> 00:42:09.450
Just trying to consume all the what’s what’s changing and looking at the SEO uses every day and trying to understand how things are changes really difficult. This day me yes yeah 10 years ago it was like SEO. Yeah, I read that once a month.

312
00:42:10.710 –> 00:42:16.050
And you understand where things got these days. And the only way I can keep up with it. It’s keep on Twitter.

313
00:42:17.250 –> 00:42:27.930
With the masses of people are see what the clever people are looking at and say, oh, read this and if it’s not for them. Right. It’s not in Twitter and somebody saying this is good. I don’t, I don’t get real.

314
00:42:29.070 –> 00:42:29.430
Time.

315
00:42:29.910 –> 00:42:40.020
I use a program or a site called nuzzle and nuzzle takes all the like takes all my tweets and all the people I follow and groups them in like oh 50 people retweeted this

316
00:42:40.560 –> 00:42:43.080
Must be more important than than other things and so

317
00:42:44.130 –> 00:42:46.740
It’s usually Barry Schwartz articles, all of them. So I can just go to his site.

318
00:42:48.300 –> 00:42:51.630
Freedom, because it seems like everyone retweets is right away, but I’m

319
00:42:52.650 –> 00:42:53.040
So,

320
00:42:53.310 –> 00:42:55.350
I’m a barrier that he has no idea what he’s doing.

321
00:42:57.240 –> 00:43:03.210
Is pushing the right buttons right he fell on his feet. He’s very lucky man. That’s awesome. I’m

322
00:43:03.570 –> 00:43:10.860
Also in the tool world there is a new tool that was kind of announced called sunlight metrics and if you’ve heard about there. They’re um

323
00:43:12.360 –> 00:43:17.970
They’re claiming, and it’s not even out yet i i think me and Jacob puzzle both signed up for a

324
00:43:18.300 –> 00:43:18.900
List that

325
00:43:19.200 –> 00:43:27.780
Yeah, the waitlist but it’s supposedly a log file analyzer. That doesn’t need log files, where I don’t know how they’re doing it. If it’s a piece of j is that

326
00:43:27.810 –> 00:43:28.470
Everybody out

327
00:43:28.830 –> 00:43:40.830
It’s a piece of JS and they’re analyzing the the bot traffic as it’s crawling your site as opposed to like having the physical log file so interesting concept.

328
00:43:41.100 –> 00:43:42.210
Well SoC rubbish.

329
00:43:43.410 –> 00:43:45.060
It very well. Very good.

330
00:43:45.720 –> 00:43:46.680
Sounds like it might be

331
00:43:46.950 –> 00:43:47.580
One of the drops

332
00:43:47.730 –> 00:43:48.750
While doesn’t find

333
00:43:49.440 –> 00:44:04.080
Somebody to come up with something no logs are incredibly important and I was going to bang on about this. It’s really difficult hold a logs, but they’re so important to understand what traffic is coming to your site that I’ve recently switched my personal site from craft Kirby.

334
00:44:05.910 –> 00:44:12.300
For various reasons, but one tool. I’ve used in both his retort craft plugin burrito was brilliant.

335
00:44:14.760 –> 00:44:24.090
And fortunately for me. There’s a retort plugin for Kirby as well. And what that does is allows it basically maps everything that’s been asked for on the site and

336
00:44:24.780 –> 00:44:35.790
Gives you a failure list and then you can then go map it to some way you want to see redirects in but you’re going to see without looking at the logs all the URLs have been asset failing.

337
00:44:36.360 –> 00:44:46.500
And the problem with if you’re not looking at the logs and stuff. He really, you’re not going to get all that information and the amount of

338
00:44:47.010 –> 00:45:02.130
WordPress URLs that have been hit on my site, which has never had WordPress on it isn’t credible. So there’s obviously people in the various places in the world, though just pounding everything in the world and see where the vulnerabilities are so they can check their paid links and

339
00:45:03.300 –> 00:45:11.460
I’m assuming that paid links because I didn’t do any of that. So yeah, it was. It’s always interesting where you know insights that I have this

340
00:45:11.970 –> 00:45:19.050
How are people trying to get to these pages. And where’s that coming from like this page never existed. Ever. And there’s just going to be a ton of

341
00:45:19.680 –> 00:45:26.010
Bot machines out there that are just hitting that type of stuff trying to find vulnerabilities. I guess the interesting world that

342
00:45:26.940 –> 00:45:37.230
I want to meet somebody who does it just to to talk to them and just understand why. And if it is just to put, you know, Viagra ads on my page then because I’ve had like a WordPress site taken over and

343
00:45:37.830 –> 00:45:43.560
I found out that in my old hometown I ranked number one for like Viagra and you’re the name of the town.

344
00:45:44.790 –> 00:45:55.980
Was like, oh, cuz somebody who was doing some research, let me know. And I’m like, oh, that was one of those someone you know took my system over and only gave it to Google bought. I never even noticed it.

345
00:45:56.910 –> 00:46:09.150
So it was a very interesting time and then you know it was weird, trying to get it out of the site because they somehow really got into the core and I couldn’t like how to delete everything and start again that’s

346
00:46:09.180 –> 00:46:21.600
One of the reasons I don’t use WordPress. It’s a fantastic tool. And yes, I do SEO for a list apart and let’s just shift on WordPress. Earlier this year, but it’s the VIP WordPress is pretty good stuff.

347
00:46:22.920 –> 00:46:32.370
But most WordPress setups aren’t looking at all, every day, making sure that everything’s okay you see things can happen like that people can have vulnerabilities and

348
00:46:32.880 –> 00:46:45.900
With those plugins. It’s fantastic. You like oh I could do this, I can, I can have a table of contents, bang. There you go. Just press a button. I’ll take a box, you get table contents and but you don’t know underneath there is somebody going to backdoor in which is why

349
00:46:46.950 –> 00:46:52.890
I have been using content management systems over the years, which I tend to focus on ones, which

350
00:46:53.460 –> 00:47:09.360
Really do separate the data away from the presentation layer. So I’m talking here expression engine. I use expression engine for years and years. I do use it for some clients. Still, and then adopt perch for small sites. Again, same thing and craft because craft came out of expression engine.

351
00:47:10.170 –> 00:47:19.230
That the guys who developed that were expression Engine developers and plug in developers and they didn’t like the way, especially if you’re going to hit the

352
00:47:19.230 –> 00:47:29.130
Wrong one but craft is very, very devery so very composer lead, etc. Yeah, my cup of tea, which is why I switched my slavish to Kirby.

353
00:47:31.350 –> 00:47:41.760
I mean that split between your data and your, your presentation layer really does separate to and you don’t get that in WordPress and now because WordPress has got Guttenberg as well, which still blocks and everything.

354
00:47:42.210 –> 00:47:51.240
All the systems we had that for years. And in fact, you can make up your own templates in the background in the back end. Rather, and I do that all the time for our clients or small clients.

355
00:47:51.990 –> 00:48:00.930
Yeah, we’re building templates them to change the page, then get in. Do it most of the time they they pay us today. So I just make it easier for my wife to

356
00:48:02.970 –> 00:48:21.060
But that sort of stuff is important to to put together and for me is if you know what you put together. You know what shouldn’t be there. And that’s why people get in with WordPress and change that because people are checking up a WordPress site. Don’t know what’s actually in there. Yeah.

357
00:48:21.660 –> 00:48:27.540
That’s it’s just so easy. Yeah, I can push a button with my host of a new setup and minutes. Yeah.

358
00:48:28.110 –> 00:48:35.760
That’s basically what we did with with the HQ podcast website which is WordPress, which will probably get hacked, at some point, but

359
00:48:37.980 –> 00:48:38.190
Street.

360
00:48:39.810 –> 00:48:46.500
So you y’all mentioned a lot of platforms. So I feel like that is a good segue.

361
00:48:47.700 –> 00:48:48.600
Re platforming

362
00:48:50.400 –> 00:48:53.250
What do you guys think of when I say re platforming

363
00:48:54.660 –> 00:48:57.630
You tell you WordPress contents ticket or something else is that

364
00:48:59.220 –> 00:49:13.560
I usually think ominous ominous use it usually comes to mind like especially if you’re trying to do re platforming and or redesign or migration, it basically any any moving or changing of have a website.

365
00:49:14.670 –> 00:49:25.740
Pretty, pretty ominous ominous and pretty, pretty daunting is what typically comes to mind when I hear brands mentioned that they’re they’re thinking about it. I don’t know how you guys feel

366
00:49:27.390 –> 00:49:28.110
Well for me.

367
00:49:29.550 –> 00:49:33.090
It’s fantastic. Doing a migration where someone is saying on the same platform.

368
00:49:35.580 –> 00:49:40.320
And they just switching a few bits and pieces over but what often happens is

369
00:49:41.640 –> 00:49:53.490
You will get somebody going well, we need to go. Stick it on this new platform because that’s now the group standard or the company standard and we need to ship them to that. Let’s use this as an opportunity to redesign it way.

370
00:49:54.030 –> 00:50:02.430
And then second thing is, while we’re redesigning it will change the content as well and as an SEO you sitting there going oh my god, everything’s changing

371
00:50:03.150 –> 00:50:19.440
It can be managed. But if you’re not in there at the beginning of the process, telling them what they need to really think about etc. If you’re brought in two weeks before they launch or worse. Two weeks after they launched, you’ve got one hell of a task on your hands, you really

372
00:50:20.280 –> 00:50:27.030
Have to be a lot of time. So this it all. It was launched and our traffic center plummeted. It’s like, well, I wonder why.

373
00:50:27.960 –> 00:50:36.030
And a very good example of that. And, and I’m not going to drop anybody’s names into this. But after I stopped running hp.com

374
00:50:36.600 –> 00:50:46.320
And it was passed out to other teams to burn within the year I was entered to run it, they did do exactly that. They did a platform change and its design change. And I said,

375
00:50:46.680 –> 00:51:01.620
You need to redirect all the URLs and as well as 12 1400 URLs inside the inside to redirect the top 200 only and for the next two years, the traffic and all those pieces.com plummeted to a third of what it was when I was running it.

376
00:51:03.060 –> 00:51:05.640
And never regained anything like it was before.

377
00:51:07.170 –> 00:51:11.550
But they’re going to get that sail off me and I was like, Yeah, I read it much better.

378
00:51:12.300 –> 00:51:26.130
Well, the thing about that is like when that happens, especially for companies that depend on that traffic or for business that that has a real world implication like probably cost. Some people their, their jobs in

379
00:51:27.180 –> 00:51:32.520
And I, and I always say, like, at the outset of any project like this. Like, look.

380
00:51:33.030 –> 00:51:41.100
Business owner brand you think of me as somebody that’s going to grow your web your, your, your traffic right that’s what people think of SEOs well

381
00:51:41.700 –> 00:51:52.350
You need to erase that for right now when we go through this project. My goal is to protect your traffic and help you not drop off a cliff flat, the

382
00:51:52.620 –> 00:51:59.730
Client once said this to me, and it’s beautiful. Because I because I’ve used it over and over again. Flat is the new up

383
00:52:00.210 –> 00:52:11.310
Right. So when you’re when you’re going through a major change like this like just maintaining stability is a really, really good thing. Now hopefully you’re doing this re platform and redesign.

384
00:52:11.910 –> 00:52:23.460
To ultimately allow yourself to grow long term and that certainly would be the goal for the SEO people too, but simply getting through and making sure that you don’t shoot yourself in the foot or feet.

385
00:52:24.990 –> 00:52:26.760
Is is pretty much the goal.

386
00:52:28.290 –> 00:52:30.120
Yeah, I mean, there was a time where

387
00:52:31.440 –> 00:52:39.480
You know, we would tell clients. Hey, we’re going to see a 30 to 50% decrease for three months and and things like that and

388
00:52:40.830 –> 00:52:47.520
You know Google’s gotten a lot better at that. If you hand them the right you know things right. So we’re not changing every bit of content and

389
00:52:48.030 –> 00:52:58.980
We’re just updating our content, you know, management system, you know, there. Yeah, we can actually launch and B flat, you know, and that’s great because we’re not losing that we’re having to wait three months for anything.

390
00:53:00.090 –> 00:53:00.390
But

391
00:53:01.530 –> 00:53:08.760
It all depends on on what’s going on. Even if we do change content. It’s all depends on the content we had before we can always change it for the better.

392
00:53:09.210 –> 00:53:18.600
But changing everything at once, can be, you know, a shock to the system. And that’s one of the things that you know as a technical SEO trying to

393
00:53:19.920 –> 00:53:29.670
You know, not have that bigger shock. I mean, I think most of my re platforms end up like we’re just going to upgrade our platform. And then what’s the developers go in there. They’re like,

394
00:53:30.120 –> 00:53:39.120
You know, our templates don’t work with this. And next thing they’re doing is a redesign. And then, of course, while they’re redesigning like let’s just change the wording of the site and it’s like

395
00:53:40.260 –> 00:53:56.550
So luckily I’ll if I get in there. You know when it’s all happening, you’re six months ahead of time or whenever that’s, that’s great, but far too many times I get called in six months after when traffic is down 50% and they were like, what happened so

396
00:53:57.030 –> 00:54:04.650
Aside from the, the obvious need for, like, hey, bring the SEOs in early on, so that we can be side by side.

397
00:54:05.490 –> 00:54:18.720
If, if you’re a brand listening to this podcast right now. Or if you’re somebody that works for a brand or whatever. What advice would you give to that person. And what are like the biggest things that you’ve seen go wrong. Like, top of the list.

398
00:54:19.950 –> 00:54:20.460
Oh,

399
00:54:21.660 –> 00:54:21.930
Well,

400
00:54:23.040 –> 00:54:35.910
Besides, but I’m going to go back to and say, getting yourself into those initial meetings is incredibly important and actually quite hard because normally you won’t know that happening. Somebody just gone off and said, I have this idea in this

401
00:54:38.070 –> 00:54:53.250
But soon as you find out, get in there and start banging the table and say we need to include me on my team. Some of my team on this, you need to think about these things. And I think that’s a really a case of you can preempt that by saying well notes to people saying

402
00:54:54.570 –> 00:55:10.170
Well, you’ve done the migration that’s worked really well. And this is, this is why it’s worth to what we need to think about. We do that migration and one of my top tips on that is I always map all the URLs in a site so absolutely everything

403
00:55:12.060 –> 00:55:28.590
And also just the pages but images, the JavaScript, CSS, the whole lot anything PDFs, especially PDFs, especially if you then drop the links, but leave the PDFs on the server and people find those PDFs and then see you, because the information in those PDFs.

404
00:55:30.960 –> 00:55:42.510
cause somebody to make the role investment and they take it to court, which is happens. And that was very funny. And I wasn’t involved with that. But I was picked up pieces but yeah

405
00:55:44.880 –> 00:55:52.440
It’s difficult, but you really, really do need to map the whole lot out and if you’ve got those maps, you’re doing on a regular basis, anyway.

406
00:55:53.610 –> 00:56:10.020
Because sometimes we don’t get the chance to understand what your contents been putting aside on a regular basis. Usually it’s okay because it’s just the blogging cetera but I would, if you’re in house I would be certainly suggesting mapping your site on a monthly basis.

407
00:56:11.910 –> 00:56:16.950
Or even a weekly one Screaming Frog it or site, ball, ball D crawl or whatever.

408
00:56:18.090 –> 00:56:27.510
Just so you’ve got an indication of what you’re actually dealing with. So when those things happen when people start doing that and, you know, at least you’ve got a starting point.

409
00:56:30.030 –> 00:56:31.380
Jeff, what about what about you, man.

410
00:56:32.460 –> 00:56:35.970
Yeah, no, I mean it’s with any of it. I think it’s

411
00:56:37.650 –> 00:56:40.320
Can will keep saying get in there early as much as you can, but

412
00:56:41.520 –> 00:56:47.700
Really want to, you know, the mapping aspect is definitely something I want to do. I also like I like to get in.

413
00:56:48.300 –> 00:56:52.530
When we’re in early looking at wire frames. Right. And because number one thing that I’m always

414
00:56:53.100 –> 00:56:59.550
I’m not all about SEO or content for content sake on pages, but working a lot of the e commerce world.

415
00:57:00.000 –> 00:57:06.330
I’ll just get in these wire frames and I’m like, where’s the content. Go and it’s like, whether it’s the title or the header.

416
00:57:06.720 –> 00:57:11.040
Like, what were some content go like we’re, how are we engaging with our customers and where are we putting that

417
00:57:11.460 –> 00:57:20.220
You know, Google needs something to read. Again, I don’t need a Wikipedia article, but we need a spot to least have content and as a designer I know designers love

418
00:57:21.180 –> 00:57:28.980
Imagery and imagery is great. It makes you know, get your feelings, but if there’s no words that go on that the the battle. We always have is that people don’t read

419
00:57:29.460 –> 00:57:36.120
The web pages anymore. So we don’t want to have small bits of content, which is all great like we just need to have those small bits of content and

420
00:57:36.510 –> 00:57:43.680
We can have multiple small bits of content to be able to get a message across. There are people who do like to read. And Google is one of them, right. They’re the

421
00:57:44.340 –> 00:57:50.700
Largest blind user on the internet so they can’t really see the pictures. So we need to at least explain what’s going on in the page.

422
00:57:52.230 –> 00:57:58.860
And if we are doing a migration and we have great content already and we’re ranking like knowing this is where rankings do coming into play.

423
00:57:59.190 –> 00:58:06.330
If we know we’re ranking well for certain pages and certain keywords like we want to make sure that like I prioritize those lists of pages so

424
00:58:06.840 –> 00:58:12.600
I want to map everything out. But I also want to make sure that, hey, these five categories are 80% of our traffic.

425
00:58:13.200 –> 00:58:20.280
Let’s not rock the boat as much on those, if we can, and maybe pull that same content and make I’m somebody who likes to have like

426
00:58:20.700 –> 00:58:30.900
Let’s keep the same title tag for now. That’s something we can change in the future. We’re gonna change content on the page. Let’s keep the same title tag or something like that. So that way, it’s easier for Google. The mapping thing there.

427
00:58:32.100 –> 00:58:34.500
But from that I, you know, it’s

428
00:58:35.550 –> 00:58:39.390
I feel like even if we have everything down the way wanted to go. It’s like

429
00:58:39.900 –> 00:58:47.970
There could always be that one thing i mean i run Screaming Frog through it a new site a million times run deep crawl through QA servers and like that, but

430
00:58:48.720 –> 00:59:02.850
Soon as we launch, it’s one of those where it’s just being. This is where our really rankings, maybe not, but I do look at things like on a daily basis because I want to make sure if I see anything start going down that we can address it right away so

431
00:59:03.300 –> 00:59:16.350
So I’ll see what you guys are saying, and I’ll raise you one. So obviously the content is very important in still, you have to have a content. If you want to rank for a specific thing.

432
00:59:16.860 –> 00:59:27.000
Redirects probably the most important. But one thing I just went through with a major, major retailer is they have had a bunch of content.

433
00:59:27.660 –> 00:59:38.190
And they, we had a redirect strategy in place. They wanted to rely less on one to ones because the system just didn’t support more than a certain amount and more on like rejects, which was fine.

434
00:59:38.760 –> 00:59:48.030
We can work around that. But they they did use it as a bit of an excuse to make the decision not to carry all the content over

435
00:59:48.420 –> 00:59:55.050
Content that for us was critical, and was within kind of that upper crust of pages driving

436
00:59:55.380 –> 01:00:05.790
Traffic in the decision making, was a little bit arbitrary because sometimes decision making comes from much higher above and sometimes comes without data informing

437
01:00:06.450 –> 01:00:17.250
Those decisions and then another function, which I did not expect with such a large organization was that the the team of people moving the content from old platform to new platform.

438
01:00:17.670 –> 01:00:28.710
Didn’t have the capacity to move at all. So, like, no matter how like if they were working every hour of every day, just on moving content they didn’t have the capacity to do it because they just didn’t have enough people

439
01:00:29.190 –> 01:00:42.810
So we had to go get into an exercise where we really had to help them prioritize which content got moved over and was present at launch, which meant that a certain portion

440
01:00:43.260 –> 01:00:53.190
Of content there was critical to performance, no matter what we did. We did every other thing right was not going to get moved over and that was a huge problem. Now luckily we

441
01:00:53.700 –> 01:01:04.980
solved it quickly after lunch, but we were like honestly we were we were really worried that like, hey, like you’re not moving over 30 or 40% of your content, like that’s going to be a problem.

442
01:01:05.700 –> 01:01:21.960
So we were definitely sounding sounding the alarm bells on on that one. And that’s just not something people talk about a lot is the actual transition and migration of the actual content they talked mostly about redirection but sometimes not all the content makes it over, which is crazy.

443
01:01:23.070 –> 01:01:24.210
It is crazy and

444
01:01:26.490 –> 01:01:34.380
Have you either have you read my article on migration tracking in Google Data studio. So my sites island called.com

445
01:01:35.550 –> 01:01:42.000
It’s on page article linked and that’s a way of tracking the tracking before and afters and making sure you don’t get the

446
01:01:42.750 –> 01:01:53.220
Web because track that trope or not or not and see what’s going on. But what I’m going to come into here is that sometimes it doesn’t matter if it does drop because if you

447
01:01:53.580 –> 01:02:13.020
redesign your site, you might be targeting it at a better audience and you have before. And I have an example with HSBC we have done this with hp.com is a global website and the majority of the traffic was from the US. And there was a separate us site where they could go into the banking.

448
01:02:14.460 –> 01:02:23.430
We got charged cross charged internally for searches, because the search was done on service CPUs run I regret, et cetera.

449
01:02:23.790 –> 01:02:31.380
So up and it was costing us quite a lot. So we said, Okay, how can we reduce the amount of searches that people doing and we looked at and said, Well,

450
01:02:31.710 –> 01:02:40.530
Majority searches are from people from the US looking for Internet banking. So I designed the stack a great big red button on the top right hand corner said login

451
01:02:41.880 –> 01:02:47.430
And it killed the amount of money we had a panel searches, because everybody coming. Yes, well that’s it bought off they went

452
01:02:49.950 –> 01:02:53.250
And if you understand what your audiences and then he just do something like that.

453
01:02:54.360 –> 01:03:01.440
It doesn’t matter that we had fundamentally a lot less page views because we were actually putting the audience, whether it needs to go.

454
01:03:02.250 –> 01:03:12.600
And reducing our costs. So for us it’s having those KPIs is far more important and that’s what marketing deal with anyway. A lot of SEOs need to get out of the

455
01:03:13.410 –> 01:03:20.340
The migration thing where you’re seeing and making sure it come back when it most the time that we do want that, and it should be like that. But there are occasions where

456
01:03:21.060 –> 01:03:29.520
As long as what you’re seeing from the bottom line and profits etc is continuing to rise or it needs to be. It’s okay.

457
01:03:30.930 –> 01:03:33.000
And maybe with the HBC site that we only

458
01:03:34.680 –> 01:03:36.990
Only redirected to hundreds URLs. So, so

459
01:03:38.550 –> 01:03:45.090
Actually what happened there was that a lot of the two hundreds didn’t cope and it was we had the right traffic.

460
01:03:46.380 –> 01:03:59.730
Yeah okay the traffic drops a lot, but actually was the right traffic that was still coming in. It was a journalist and investors and and people want to know the information. It wasn’t people trying to log on to their bank systems, etc. So

461
01:04:00.600 –> 01:04:02.190
You brought up a good, a good point.

462
01:04:03.240 –> 01:04:14.400
In terms of looking at some of those top line metrics and I, I know I’ve run into situations where like when you’re dealing with leadership or C, C suite, folks.

463
01:04:15.210 –> 01:04:33.570
They judge a sometimes it’s ill advised, but they judge the entire programs performance on those top line metrics visits, not necessarily the convergence in the actual bottom line, how do you, how do you handle that when that happens.

464
01:04:34.200 –> 01:04:37.710
When you have a situation like you had where you you did it on purpose.

465
01:04:38.370 –> 01:04:41.100
Yeah, well, we’re telling them. They’re idiots and they should be looking at this

466
01:04:41.730 –> 01:04:44.190
And that’s why I’m now freelance right

467
01:04:45.870 –> 01:04:51.870
The really when it comes to see Twitter, etc. You need to start building up dashboards that really just delivered to them.

468
01:04:52.620 –> 01:05:00.060
What they need to know now get into detail. It’s when you get the teams that are working for the C suite that you need to get more in more detail and the people

469
01:05:00.600 –> 01:05:10.200
Working for them even more details. So it’s really making sure that your analytics and your data is aimed at the right audience what you want to see.

470
01:05:10.560 –> 01:05:19.080
And with something like a C suite. If you, if they come in and look at the graphing down we’re going looks terrible. The grass cutting down so well, actually, this is the bounce rate.

471
01:05:20.640 –> 01:05:26.730
As a really bad example. This is a good thing. So it’s the way you present that information and you make sure when you go into

472
01:05:27.120 –> 01:05:34.290
A meeting with the C suite that you know exactly what is going to happen, you’ll know exactly what you’re going to tell them exactly what they’re expecting to see

473
01:05:35.460 –> 01:05:41.580
And you do that by making sure you have meetings beforehand with the people that work for them, etc. And and

474
01:05:42.960 –> 01:05:45.030
And make sure everything’s smooth as a really

475
01:05:47.010 –> 01:05:52.740
Great advice sage advice, though. So Simon, where can people find you at

476
01:05:53.610 –> 01:05:57.660
Simon cox.com, of course, we all own our own domain names. Don’t worry.

477
01:05:58.530 –> 01:06:00.450
I, I certainly do. Jeff.

478
01:06:00.600 –> 01:06:02.010
I do mine. Yeah, yeah.

479
01:06:03.330 –> 01:06:10.260
We all, we were not idiots in somebody else get the domain name. Wait, actually, I did that.

480
01:06:10.800 –> 01:06:12.870
I do on my own, my own domain name.

481
01:06:14.100 –> 01:06:17.040
Jacob says, But I, I’m the one that got it.

482
01:06:17.340 –> 01:06:22.530
There was a time I let mine laps and that’s right after the value of people

483
01:06:23.520 –> 01:06:27.480
took everything and I was just like, I took the site down and then by accident. I let it lapse and

484
01:06:27.840 –> 01:06:30.480
had sold by my domain name and try to sell it back to me.

485
01:06:31.980 –> 01:06:35.550
But that lasted about a year and then they just let it go. And then I just picked it up again. But

486
01:06:36.420 –> 01:06:36.990
It was interesting.

487
01:06:37.380 –> 01:06:38.730
You can also find me on Twitter.

488
01:06:38.940 –> 01:06:39.510
Again,

489
01:06:39.600 –> 01:06:48.150
That’s Simon Cox for those first in there. Thank you very much and you will find me a lot during the week doing Twitter chats for SEM rush

490
01:06:48.570 –> 01:07:03.600
SEO chat on Thursdays and a few others as well econ chat on Mondays UK time midday, which is before your app, but it’s very good. Very common stuff as well. So yeah, I’m mainly on Twitter I dumped Facebook and Instagram. Last year he before he even

491
01:07:04.740 –> 01:07:17.670
got fed up with it. I might have to dive back in for for work purposes, but from a personal point of view, I don’t do those anymore. But yeah, anything else as it is, I think, for my sis heroes. Yeah, yeah, it’s

492
01:07:17.700 –> 01:07:31.260
It’s a, it’s huge. What is it, tick, tick tock, and Instagram. Maybe, maybe good with with those young guns but Twitter’s still, still the main place for for SEO chats, at least as far as I’m concerned. Yeah.

493
01:07:32.160 –> 01:07:38.670
Well, well, thank you so much for for taking taking time and joining us and being candid. We really appreciate it.

494
01:07:39.240 –> 01:07:41.700
It’s wonderful. I’m really glad I won’t be back next week.

495
01:07:44.640 –> 01:07:46.110
Yes, yes, we

496
01:07:46.740 –> 01:07:47.730
Were moving on.

497
01:07:48.210 –> 01:07:50.790
That 20 minutes written seemed to go a long, long way.

498
01:07:50.880 –> 01:07:51.630
Yeah.

499
01:07:52.620 –> 01:07:54.030
It’s been really enjoyable. Thanks, guys.

500
01:07:55.620 –> 01:07:56.670
Thank you. Thank you.

#26: Season 2 Intro

We introduce the new co-host Jeff Louella, Jake talks about what he learned in Season 1 and what to expect in Season 2, and we even react to some SEO current events.

#25: Ross Hudgens

We talk with Ross Hudgens about the founding of Siege Media, entrepreneurial challenges, video SEO strategy and more.

#24: JP Sherman

We talk with JP Sherman about his incredibly diverse background before becoming an SEO, optimizing internal site search and more.

#23: Jenny Halasz

We talk with Jenny Halasz about her 20 years of SEO experience, the ebbs and flows of her career, founding her company and more.

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