A podcast about the origin stories of real SEOs.

An exploration into the reality of being an SEO.

Latest Episodes

View the latest episodes from the 1st and 2nd seasons of the show.

#41: Jason White

Episode Summary

Interview

In this episode, we chat with Jason White, Director of SEO at PMG, a digital marketing agency based in Fort Worth, TX (but with offices in Austin, Dallas, New York, and London).

We discuss:

  • His passion for cycling and how he went from working at a bike shop to SEO.
  • His time both in-house and at agencies
  • Why he believes his best fit is within the agency environment
  • Doing SEO on eBay
  • Local search
  • Being a jack of all trades
  • And so much more!

News

In the news we talk about:

Deep Dive

  • We have a deep dive biggest SEO challenges. To paraphrase Frank Costanza of Seinfeld, we got a lot of problems, and now you’re gonna hear about them!

#40: Garrett Mehrguth

Episode Summary

Background

In this episode, we chat with Garrett Mehrguth, Founder and CEO of Directive, a search marketing agency for mid-market and enterprise brands.

We discuss:

  • How he went from college soccer star to Fiverr hustler to SEO
  • The founding of his business
  • His advice on how SEOs can begin to speak executive-level language
  • What it’s like to scale and run an agency and the pressure of being responsible for so many people
  • How he works to empower those within his organization
  • What it’s like to have to deliver bad news to an employee

And so much more.

News

In the news we talk about:

Deep Dive

Finally, we have a deep dive into why discoverability (not traffic, keywords, and links) needs to be put on an SEO pedestal.

#39: Carolyn Lyden

Episode Summary

In this episode, we chat with Carolyn Lyden, President and Lead SEO at Search Hermit.

Topics covered

Articles referenced

#38: Andrew Cock-Starkey

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Andrew Cock-Starkey (better know as “Optimisey”). Andrew runs an SEO consultancy out of Cambridge, England working with clients all over the globe. He also runs one of the most popular SEO meet-ups in the UK.

Andrew’s background

We talk about:

  • How Andrew’s career began 20 years ago as a broadcast journalist working at the BBC with a focus on cricket and fut ball
  • How the emphasis placed on creating fresh and timely content around the sports stories of the day really opened his eyes to the power of building traffic online
  • His time as Web Editor as Newsworks
  • His management of the website for the Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC)
  • How it all led him to found his own SEO consultancy Optimisey
  • What it’s like running the Optimisey SEO meeting
  • His Optimisey YouTube video series
  • And more.

SEO news

We also touch on the news:

This episode’s deep dive

And last but not least, we dive into a few overlooked SEO fundamentals including:

  • How often simple analytics configurations seem to be overlooked
  •  The use of site monitoring tools and how they can help businesses

#37: Martha van Berkel

Episode Summary

In today’s episode, we talk with Martha van Berkel, CEO and Co-Founder of SchemaApp, a service that empowers the Digital Marketer to own their schema markup strategy through to implementation without ever writing code or engaging with IT.

We talk about her background in mathematics and engineering (she also attended the MIT Sloan school of management). We also discuss how she spent almost 14 years at Cisco, what it’s like to be an innovator at an otherwise slow-moving, highly-bureaucratic company, and the circumstances that led to her going out on her own and eventually forming her own company with her husband.

In the news, we talk about Google’s recent broad core algorithm update and share our thoughts on how the industry reacts to algo updates as well as our own approaches.

And finally, we deep dive into structured data, how brands can use it, as well as what challenges SEOs face with schema and getting it implemented.

Also, follow Schema App on Twitter.

#36: Ian Howells

Episode Summary

We talk with Ian Howells, long-time SEO and one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank, which is one of the best private SEO communities in the world.

We discuss:

  • How he began building websites in high school as part of a class project
  • How his early experience led him to building affiliate websites and making money online at a very young age
  • We discuss his foray into marketing and optimization in the adult and online poker industries
  • How a federal law forced him to change his career arc, which eventually led on to various agency and in-house roles
  • The founding of Traffic Think Tank
  • What it’s like to run one of the most well-known and reputable private SEO communities
  • Coordinating the Traffic Think Tank Live conference
  • The news that Bing says 2020 will be the year where keyword research becomes obsolete (while Google says it isn’t)
  • The rise of DuckDuckGo
  • Deep dive into Affiliate Sites

And much more.

Episode Transcript

1

00:00:02.730 –> 00:00:15.299
Jacob Stoops: All right, everybody. Welcome to the Page 2 Podcast I am your host Jacob stoops and I am here with Mr. Jeff, Louella Jeff. How’s it going?

2
00:00:15.750 –> 00:00:17.340
Jeff Louella: Going well how’s everyone doing out there.

3
00:00:18.630 –> 00:00:19.650
Jacob Stoops: They can’t answer you, Jeff.

4
00:00:19.740 –> 00:00:21.480
Jeff Louella: Ah, I was trying this time.

5
00:00:23.010 –> 00:00:23.190
Jacob Stoops: No.

6
00:00:23.700 –> 00:00:25.260
Jeff Louella: Not respond on Twitter. How you doing,

7
00:00:25.290 –> 00:00:32.970
Jacob Stoops: Yes, please respond on Twitter and we are joined by Mr Ian Howells. Ian, how are you doing?

8
00:00:33.390 –> 00:00:37.650
Ian Howells: Good man, Jacob. Jeff, thanks for thanks for having me on. We

9
00:00:37.680 –> 00:00:38.640
Jeff Louella: Are very

10
00:00:38.910 –> 00:00:56.100
Jacob Stoops: Very excited and I don’t want to bury the lead. But if you don’t know, Ian. He is the one of the partners at Traffic Think Tank. And we’ve already had one of his counterparts on I think about 10 months ago, Nick Eubanks who also

11
00:00:57.210 –> 00:01:09.030
Jacob Stoops: Founded Traffic Think Tank. They’ve got a lot of really awesome stuff going on there, which I’m sure that we’ll get into and then he and I believe you. You’re also, you also have a day job at a soft landing tree.

12
00:01:09.420 –> 00:01:17.130
Ian Howells: So I did previously. Up until the end of August of 2019 I was leading the the SEO team at lending tree.

13
00:01:18.150 –> 00:01:23.820
Ian Howells: Yep. Now just affiliate stuff consulting and Traffic Think Tank are kind of the three legs of the stool and

14
00:01:23.850 –> 00:01:28.440
Jacob Stoops: I had that in my notes and I completely glossed over it. We do take notes here.

15
00:01:28.680 –> 00:01:29.160
Ian Howells: Before we

16
00:01:29.400 –> 00:01:33.120
Jacob Stoops: Find people and then I just get on and I just messed them mess them all up or

17
00:01:33.540 –> 00:01:34.800
Jacob Stoops: In one case I butchered

18
00:01:34.800 –> 00:01:36.420
Jacob Stoops: Somebody somebody’s name.

19
00:01:37.950 –> 00:01:45.960
Jacob Stoops: Almost immediately, I believe that was Jamie, I called her out Jericho. It’s Alba Rico and she definitely called me on that.

20
00:01:47.070 –> 00:01:49.590
Jacob Stoops: Yet Lee, which was a little embarrassing.

21
00:01:50.010 –> 00:01:54.300
Ian Howells: I mean, it’s better to call better to call a name mispronunciation out early. Right.

22
00:01:54.420 –> 00:01:57.060
Ian Howells: Rather than it happening over and over and over again.

23
00:01:57.360 –> 00:02:05.790
Jacob Stoops: The whole thing. It’s like that episode of Friends were Chandler gets called Toby at his workplace and he never corrects them and then you Toby from there on for like six years.

24
00:02:07.590 –> 00:02:19.350
Jacob Stoops: And he anyways. So in today’s episode. For those of you that have listened, you’ll kind of know what’s coming for any first time listeners. Let me just tell you kind of what we’re going to do.

25
00:02:20.100 –> 00:02:33.090
Jacob Stoops: The hallmark of this show is kind of the origin stories of great SEOs SEO is not a very old industry and in our experience, nobody tends to get into

26
00:02:33.390 –> 00:02:41.940
Jacob Stoops: Especially if you’ve been in it for a while, into SEO on purpose. A lot of people come from other places. And we’re interested in figuring out

27
00:02:42.240 –> 00:02:47.880
Jacob Stoops: What are those other places, and how, how did how did people get into SEO in the first place, and what are their

28
00:02:48.510 –> 00:02:52.290
Jacob Stoops: What are their backgrounds and even more importantly, we’d like to talk about

29
00:02:52.860 –> 00:03:00.960
Jacob Stoops: Successes failures, what it’s like to be an SEO day to day. It’s kind of it can be kind of a grind and we like to kind of get deep on

30
00:03:01.410 –> 00:03:09.840
Jacob Stoops: What people experience on a day to day basis. So that’s kind of part one. Part two. And this is something that we’ve added in Season two is we like to

31
00:03:10.620 –> 00:03:22.230
Jacob Stoops: We like to talk about what’s what’s in the news kind of current events in the SEO world, which usually ends up with me just yelling about various SEO topics and ranting and complaining, but that’s it. That’s okay.

32
00:03:23.250 –> 00:03:29.250
Jacob Stoops: Jeff kind of runs runs that section and he kind of balances ME OUT HE’S KIND OF THE even keeled person and I just go off.

33
00:03:29.250 –> 00:03:32.040
Jeff Louella: Sometimes, AND I KNOW HOW TO TOSS THINGS UP TO YOU, TOO.

34
00:03:32.220 –> 00:03:40.140
Jacob Stoops: Well, Jeff, I want to, I want to hear just for one wants me being maybe the even keeled person and just being cool and you just

35
00:03:40.320 –> 00:03:43.200
Jacob Stoops: I want to know what you want to rant about at some point I want to see that.

36
00:03:43.290 –> 00:03:46.950
Jeff Louella: So all right, I will do some topics, the data Jeff will ramp.

37
00:03:47.940 –> 00:03:59.040
Jacob Stoops: And then the third, the third leg of the stool in our, in our episodes is typically a deep dive and today’s deep dive is going to be on affiliate sites.

38
00:03:59.670 –> 00:04:12.570
Jacob Stoops: Which we’re excited to talk about. So if you’re in the affiliate game or if you’re not in the affiliate game and you’re thinking about it. We’re going to deep dive into that topic at the towards the end of the episode so

39
00:04:14.070 –> 00:04:14.520
Jacob Stoops: Ian

40
00:04:15.870 –> 00:04:22.890
Jacob Stoops: Let’s jump into kind of the first phase, who are you, how did you get into SEO, what, what’s your story.

41
00:04:23.430 –> 00:04:35.400
Ian Howells: Cool. So, like you mentioned up top. Ian howls co founder and partner at trek think tank which the short version of that is a 700 plus now person community.

42
00:04:35.940 –> 00:04:48.120
Ian Howells: Community portion happens in Slack all of the educational kind of training material and resources are all within Traffic Think Tank calm. So think of like distilled you accept not five years out of date now.

43
00:04:49.980 –> 00:04:55.170
Ian Howells: Is the website portion and then the community. I think is really one of the the big strong

44
00:04:55.680 –> 00:05:03.450
Ian Howells: Assets for it because folks can ask questions get feedback on campaign ideas that they’re going to have more if you just get stuck on something that’s a good way to

45
00:05:04.110 –> 00:05:13.710
Ian Howells: Just kind of stop smashing your head against the wall, have a problem and get feedback from from other folks, kind of in real time. But in terms of

46
00:05:14.520 –> 00:05:21.870
Ian Howells: Getting started in the the industry. I built a website when I was in high school, my cousin and I actually started

47
00:05:22.470 –> 00:05:30.390
Ian Howells: What would be now called a blog, but then was not called a blog because at that point blogs were literally just

48
00:05:30.810 –> 00:05:40.680
Ian Howells: Like an online Diary of like what your day was about. So at that point we hated the word blog like rebelled against it completely because that sounded like

49
00:05:41.160 –> 00:05:50.400
Ian Howells: Stuff that like children, but would do. Right. And we were all a 15 at that point. So like we were obviously, way, way too cool for that.

50
00:05:50.940 –> 00:06:05.670
Ian Howells: So today would be called a blog started that in December of 99 when I was, I think, a freshman in high school. So, you know, like all cool kids in high school I was sitting around learning HTML.

51
00:06:06.420 –> 00:06:15.240
Ian Howells: So that was, that was fun, really good for your social life being the kid that you know is figuring out how to build websites but worked out long term so

52
00:06:16.050 –> 00:06:16.680
Ian Howells: That’s all right.

53
00:06:16.980 –> 00:06:22.440
Jeff Louella: I was the kid with the Commodore 64 so myself a little bit more, but we would trigger games on the bus.

54
00:06:23.100 –> 00:06:38.850
Ian Howells: So what’s funny is like I wish I went back that far. We didn’t have a computer in the house until 98 my parents got a gateway and they make splurged and went crazy and got like the six gig hard drive and the 64 Meg’s around like it was

55
00:06:39.180 –> 00:06:40.320
Ian Howells: It was a dream at that

56
00:06:42.270 –> 00:06:49.680
Ian Howells: But I built the site with my cousin as a hobby really because other guys in high school, so I took art.

57
00:06:50.100 –> 00:06:56.100
Ian Howells: In high school, and there were juniors and seniors in my class because like art was just an elective it wasn’t part of a track or whatever.

58
00:06:56.790 –> 00:07:07.680
Ian Howells: And these guys had built their own website and they were hilarious and it was basically like online short skit type things written out

59
00:07:08.460 –> 00:07:22.860
Ian Howells: And I wanted to be a part of it. But I was this like dumb freshman. So I was like, well, screw it like we can just make our own. So we built a website and just run it as a hobby for like two years and then I was in

60
00:07:24.630 –> 00:07:32.100
Ian Howells: Some webmaster forum. I can’t, I can’t remember which one it was. But one of the guys that were on there. This guy, Aaron.

61
00:07:33.360 –> 00:07:41.130
Ian Howells: He has since legally changed his name to sunshine Megatron he he built t shirt hell calm.

62
00:07:41.610 –> 00:07:48.870
Ian Howells: And T shirt hell had an affiliate program. And so he painted a bunch of people from the forum and was like, hey, do you want to join my affiliate program.

63
00:07:49.380 –> 00:07:59.550
Ian Howells: Was like, I have no idea what that is, but maybe so he gave me like the 92nd elevator pitch of what affiliate marketing was. It was basically like just make an account. I’ll give you a wink.

64
00:07:59.940 –> 00:08:15.270
Ian Howells: Put the link out to your website, if somebody clicks through that and buys a t shirt. I’ll give you five bucks for each shirt that they buy it was like, well, you can make money on the internet like i can i can make money for my website. Tell me more.

65
00:08:16.380 –> 00:08:16.560
Ian Howells: Well,

66
00:08:16.620 –> 00:08:21.450
Jacob Stoops: Not only could you make money, you basically had a person with the name of a transformer

67
00:08:22.710 –> 00:08:32.760
Ian Howells: Not yet. But he was still just Aaron at that point he is a crazy person. I don’t know if he’s like in a bunker somewhere if he is still accessible that you’d be

68
00:08:33.330 –> 00:08:45.240
Ian Howells: Talk to him but interesting life story, I’m sure. But this was in 2001 so like for two years just built a website as a hobby and

69
00:08:46.080 –> 00:08:55.770
Ian Howells: That was kind of it and then 2001 was introduced to this whole affiliate thing. And I was like, Okay, this will be great. So put some banners on the site.

70
00:08:56.160 –> 00:09:09.300
Ian Howells: First month sell like 30 T shirts and make 150 bucks. And I was like, Oh damn, this is amazing because at this point I’m 17 right so the option is either work every Saturday for the like.

71
00:09:09.630 –> 00:09:21.120
Ian Howells: $5 and 25 cents an hour. I think that minimum wage was at that point, or just screw around on the internet and make the same amount of money each month. I was like, this is beautiful.

72
00:09:21.660 –> 00:09:29.760
Ian Howells: And then the second month hats and we sell like three t shirts. And then the third month hits and we don’t sell any news like ah shit.

73
00:09:30.900 –> 00:09:49.080
Ian Howells: Okay, so turn. Turns out we have like the same hundred to 200 visitors to the website every single day. So by month three of promoting literally one thing everyone saw it already. So like if they were going to buy one of those T shirts, they already bought it and we were done.

74
00:09:50.790 –> 00:10:09.090
Ian Howells: So then it was like okay well I need a lot of traffic and I need a lot of new traffic. And if you ask any 17 year old guy on the internet. What gets a lot of traffic on the web is answers probably going to be the same. It was an adult websites will will say to use the

75
00:10:09.360 –> 00:10:10.410
Jacob Stoops: Horn, it’s for

76
00:10:10.440 –> 00:10:12.570
Ian Howells: Clean important. Yeah, yeah, it’s probably part

77
00:10:13.500 –> 00:10:13.980
Bronze

78
00:10:15.930 –> 00:10:26.340
Ian Howells: So that it was like Okay, so here’s how dumb. I was, I had a shared hosting account that was running me like 20 or 30 bucks a month at that point because hosting this still pricey.

79
00:10:27.810 –> 00:10:38.700
Ian Howells: And I go to one adult site, they don’t even I think they still exist, but they’re not really a thing anymore. They were called T GPS thumbnail gallery posts.

80
00:10:39.060 –> 00:10:49.050
Ian Howells: Which was basically a big just text list and every day, there’d be like 50 or 100 new links and it’d be like an eight word description and you would click through.

81
00:10:49.560 –> 00:10:58.800
Ian Howells: And then all of the most of the listings were like third party external people sites and you would build a single page photo gallery with like

82
00:10:59.280 –> 00:11:07.530
Ian Howells: 10 to 15 thumbnails and then two or three calls to action to try and push people to a pay site to get them to sign up is that the short version of how it worked.

83
00:11:08.070 –> 00:11:16.620
Ian Howells: Here’s how idiotic. I was, I went to one tip there were two big ones that I knew about through, you know, recreational internet usage, let’s say,

84
00:11:17.730 –> 00:11:27.720
Ian Howells: I went to the first big one that I know about click through to one of the galleries downloaded all the photos built my own gallery and submitted it to the second

85
00:11:28.260 –> 00:11:38.310
Ian Howells: Big tip site that I knew about. And instead of pushing an adult site with adult content. I tried to sell them offensive T shirts from t shirt health so

86
00:11:39.030 –> 00:11:46.620
Ian Howells: Total copyright infringement, because I just stole, I had no right to use those images whatsoever just downloaded them and through them back up on a new page.

87
00:11:47.100 –> 00:11:58.860
Ian Howells: And then took people that were looking for pictures of naked women, and then said, hey, want to buy a t shirt. So that was about as well as you would expect.

88
00:11:59.040 –> 00:11:59.550
Ian Howells: To go

89
00:11:59.820 –> 00:12:01.140
Jacob Stoops: It’s a logical jump, I guess.

90
00:12:01.350 –> 00:12:12.630
Ian Howells: Right. Because, because I didn’t even like it had not even occurred to me yet that like affiliate programs existed for other things I just knew about this one. So when you only have a hammer.

91
00:12:13.050 –> 00:12:21.030
Ian Howells: Everything looks like a nail. So I was like, well, okay, I’ll just get a bunch of traffic to look at this banner and surely someone will buy a t shirt.

92
00:12:21.960 –> 00:12:32.430
Ian Howells: Turns out, no and turns out a small shared hosting account cannot withstand like 70,000 visits in a 24 hour period, at least at that point.

93
00:12:32.910 –> 00:12:42.900
Ian Howells: So my hosting crashes, the host wasn’t a huge host. So I have the actual guy who owns the company emailing me basically saying like, what the hell are you doing

94
00:12:44.490 –> 00:12:54.030
Ian Howells: So that was great. A nice bandwidth overcharged that I’ve been had to come up with. But that was my first kind of exposure to

95
00:12:54.720 –> 00:13:08.430
Ian Howells: Holy crap. There’s way more traffic than, like, I realized, one could get to there were like 70,000 people in a day before the hosting crash. So like it could have been over 100 for all I know.

96
00:13:09.030 –> 00:13:25.620
Ian Howells: And then, you know, kind of the head smacking like maybe I should try and sell somebody. The thing that they are very clearly looking for not trying to divert them to another. So it was a good lesson, even though it was like a $200 bandwidth bill that I had to

97
00:13:26.550 –> 00:13:27.120
Jeff Louella: Pay for

98
00:13:27.330 –> 00:13:30.450
Ian Howells: Which one, you’re 17 is not, you know, super, super fun.

99
00:13:31.140 –> 00:13:41.340
Jacob Stoops: I think the question that I wanted. So how long did you stay in the in the porn game in terms of, like, working, working on the those types of sites.

100
00:13:41.610 –> 00:13:50.700
Ian Howells: Until I met my now wife in 2005 okay so that’s so almost four years, four years, yep.

101
00:13:51.180 –> 00:13:53.430
Jacob Stoops: So you’re 17 at the time and you

102
00:13:53.430 –> 00:13:53.910
Ended

103
00:13:56.160 –> 00:13:56.310
Jacob Stoops: The

104
00:13:56.430 –> 00:13:59.610
Jacob Stoops: The only thing I can imagine is a lot of giggling

105
00:14:01.200 –> 00:14:01.920
Jacob Stoops: And not only that,

106
00:14:02.370 –> 00:14:04.620
Ian Howells: The novelty wears off pretty quick.

107
00:14:04.800 –> 00:14:06.660
Jacob Stoops: Well, that’s what I was gonna ask one. What’s it

108
00:14:06.810 –> 00:14:11.880
Jacob Stoops: What is it like having never like done work for a porn site. I know that there are

109
00:14:11.880 –> 00:14:19.470
Jacob Stoops: People that do that. And then, especially being that young, how the hell did you explain that to your parents or did you

110
00:14:20.460 –> 00:14:30.180
Ian Howells: So they knew I was running websites because at the time. I still had to literally like use my mom’s credit card to buy domains.

111
00:14:30.180 –> 00:14:32.280
Ian Howells: Because I’m 70 like I didn’t

112
00:14:32.490 –> 00:14:39.750
Ian Howells: So I would literally give her cash and then she would punch her credit card number into I.

113
00:14:41.700 –> 00:14:45.660
Ian Howells: I can’t remember in my domain GoDaddy. I can’t remember the first place I bought a domain.

114
00:14:47.520 –> 00:14:54.630
Ian Howells: But they were like $30 a year at the time, like when I first bought a domain, like now it’s a joke it like there’s

115
00:14:55.200 –> 00:15:00.480
Ian Howells: Some deal. These are like a buck 99 or 99 cents. It’s not ones you want, but still

116
00:15:00.900 –> 00:15:08.130
Ian Howells: Like at that point 30 bucks a year for your domain plus 20 or 30 bucks a month for hosting like kind of bar was was a lot higher.

117
00:15:08.490 –> 00:15:20.850
Ian Howells: And so they knew that like this was a thing. And mostly about the hobby site that was that I was running with my cousin until check started showing up at the house and then it was like, what, what the hell is this

118
00:15:22.950 –> 00:15:29.670
Ian Howells: Yeah, about that. So I think they were thankfully they were super cool about it. They were

119
00:15:30.420 –> 00:15:39.360
Ian Howells: I guess a good point of context here when I was 17 my parents were 35 and 36 they were 18 and 19 when they had me

120
00:15:40.140 –> 00:15:52.140
Ian Howells: So they were my age now basically so me having a 17 year old kid. So they still remembered I guess the point is they still remembered kind of being a 17 or 18 year old because

121
00:15:52.470 –> 00:16:00.990
Ian Howells: They were like 15 months away from accidentally getting pregnant with yours truly. So of all the things that I could be getting into, I think, was their

122
00:16:02.010 –> 00:16:17.700
Ian Howells: Perspective. This was like that that big of a deal like okay if you turn a 17 year old kid loose with a cable internet connection. He’s probably going to look at porn. Anyway, like screw and if he’s going to make money off of it like it’s not illegal, like what the hell.

123
00:16:18.810 –> 00:16:19.050
Yeah.

124
00:16:21.720 –> 00:16:22.860
Jacob Stoops: So where did you go from there.

125
00:16:24.000 –> 00:16:35.730
Ian Howells: So did the adult thing for a while. A big regret is that I did not push harder on that front. Right. Because once I got to the point where I was making a few hundred dollars a month.

126
00:16:36.450 –> 00:16:45.600
Ian Howells: I then just got super lazy like being a kid still at that point, like I didn’t have a concept of hey, if you work really hard.

127
00:16:46.110 –> 00:16:54.960
Ian Howells: And do a lot of effort into this like this can become like a big, full time income level type situation.

128
00:16:55.800 –> 00:17:03.960
Ian Howells: Like I just had no awareness of the fact that that was even possible, right. I’m like 18 months removed from. Oh my god, you can make money on the internet.

129
00:17:04.290 –> 00:17:08.880
Ian Howells: So the fact that, like this could be the way somebody supports themselves full time.

130
00:17:09.630 –> 00:17:16.950
Ian Howells: Just didn’t even seem like a plausible thing. So I would work to the point where I was making like six or 800 bucks a month.

131
00:17:17.490 –> 00:17:25.890
Ian Howells: And then we’re just kind of let it coast and then if like if money started falling off, I’d build a couple more pages or free sites at that time they were called

132
00:17:26.640 –> 00:17:34.140
Ian Howells: And get it back to the point where it was up in that six $800 range again and then like repeat just over and over and over again because

133
00:17:34.800 –> 00:17:40.770
Ian Howells: You know, as long as I was buying video games. And then in college like beer money like

134
00:17:41.400 –> 00:17:55.170
Ian Howells: It didn’t, you know, it didn’t seem like a pressing thing to you know forgo going out for the night to sit at home and you know Peck away and dream Weaver and make new new pages look. What is the quote night in

135
00:17:55.230 –> 00:18:10.200
Jacob Stoops: The movie The Social Network. I feel like it’s Justin Timberlake character that that says something to the effect of, you know, what’s cool you think or something like you think a million dollars is cool. Let me tell you what’s really cool a billion dollars.

136
00:18:11.580 –> 00:18:12.870
Jacob Stoops: If you needed that mindset.

137
00:18:13.020 –> 00:18:13.920
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I

138
00:18:14.040 –> 00:18:17.610
Ian Howells: Did not did not have that, I guess, unfortunately, so

139
00:18:18.960 –> 00:18:31.170
Ian Howells: I kind of plugged away on that for you know, while until 2005 when I met my wife ended up selling the the few sites that I had that were worth selling at that point.

140
00:18:31.740 –> 00:18:40.500
Ian Howells: The ones that had kind of their own traffic and wasn’t just the hamster wheel of like submit a page get listed get traffic. Three days later, it’s gone. And you just kind of repeat

141
00:18:41.490 –> 00:18:51.750
Ian Howells: And moved from the adult industry into online poker. So, you know, again, just sticking with like vice marketing, I guess, and going with stuff that

142
00:18:53.910 –> 00:19:01.200
Ian Howells: I knew from my own internet usage, let’s say, and stuff that had attractive payouts right because the

143
00:19:01.680 –> 00:19:13.170
Ian Howells: The attractive thing about the adult industry was a a sign up, it’d be worth anywhere from 30 to $50 one time CPA and there was just

144
00:19:14.070 –> 00:19:30.060
Ian Howells: an absurd abundance of traffic to be had. Right. So, like, getting to the point where you’re doing like I said that six $800 a month level was not hard, like I did not know anything, and was doing that as like a 17 1819 year old kid.

145
00:19:31.080 –> 00:19:50.220
Ian Howells: So went from that to online poker only really pushed an online poker for like a year because in I think it was October of 2006 the safe port act passes and online gambling in the US, almost disappears overnight.

146
00:19:50.220 –> 00:19:53.490
Ian Howells: Because all the major credit card processors lose the ability to

147
00:19:53.820 –> 00:20:07.590
Ian Howells: Run charges for these gambling sites. So I had a good year primarily promoting poker room calm the big draw. There was, it was now $100 like if you got a real money.

148
00:20:08.280 –> 00:20:19.560
Ian Howells: Verified deposit player you get 100 bucks so started out really simple and kind of scam me were like the weekly poker game that me and my friends did on Tuesday.

149
00:20:19.890 –> 00:20:25.590
Ian Howells: I just got the other nine guys to sign up through my affiliate link and then it was like, okay, sign up

150
00:20:26.040 –> 00:20:37.110
Ian Howells: And then get on aim and let me know your name in poker room, and then we’ll start a heads up match and I will just intentionally lose $50 to you.

151
00:20:37.410 –> 00:20:45.840
Ian Howells: And we’ll call it. Even so, like you sign up for me. I got 100 bucks. I’ll purposely dump 50 bucks to you in game because we can just talk on AIM about like

152
00:20:46.260 –> 00:20:58.350
Ian Howells: What cards we have and figure out how to how to make this work. So like a a in incentivize traffic, I guess, through real life and then just started building out

153
00:20:59.250 –> 00:21:16.650
Ian Howells: Fairly simple sites through recounting what I actually did was just word count games that I would actually play online and made like a online poker blog basically just talking about playing online and then having poker room calm ads all the hell over the place.

154
00:21:17.910 –> 00:21:27.150
Ian Howells: But only got to do that for like a year, which is unfortunate because hundred dollar payouts were really good and in like 2005 2004 or five, six, like right after

155
00:21:27.780 –> 00:21:36.480
Ian Howells: Chris moneymaker basically made online poker exploded in popularity, there was kind of lots of traffic and referrals to go around.

156
00:21:37.680 –> 00:21:47.460
Ian Howells: But then it all disappears overnight because of a bill that the Senate passes so I’m near the tail end of college. At this point, I was on the five year plan.

157
00:21:48.090 –> 00:22:00.540
Ian Howells: I majored in graphic design and I figured like, hey, I can just like I’m already building websites for myself, like maybe I can just get a job building websites for other people. So that’s how I ended up picking graphic design as my

158
00:22:01.230 –> 00:22:08.610
Ian Howells: As my major. Again, it did not occur to me that, like, oh, I could just work for myself or I can just build sites that that earn money.

159
00:22:10.110 –> 00:22:18.930
Ian Howells: And so I’m in what was supposed to be my last year of college turned out to be year year four of five.

160
00:22:19.980 –> 00:22:31.170
Ian Howells: And it just, you know, the bottom falls out, like the all the sites I have are now completely worthless. Nobody will want to buy them because they can’t monetize the traffic either

161
00:22:31.800 –> 00:22:37.110
Ian Howells: So that kind of reinforced for me that, like, yeah, maybe this whole

162
00:22:37.830 –> 00:22:44.130
Ian Howells: You know, trying to make money on the internet thing, definitely. It’s not a thing that you should do as your attempt at full time income because

163
00:22:44.370 –> 00:22:51.300
Ian Howells: Stuff like this could happen where one day you just wake up and because of something that has nothing to do with you all your money is just gone.

164
00:22:53.340 –> 00:22:59.490
Ian Howells: So the following year in 2007 I am getting ready to

165
00:23:00.510 –> 00:23:07.950
Ian Howells: Coming into college and as a graphic design, Major, you have to do a senior show with like your art portfolio. Right, so I need a printer.

166
00:23:09.000 –> 00:23:26.010
Ian Howells: Locally to print all my stuff. And so I pull out the Yellow Book, like the physical Yellow Book. I don’t know if you’re our younger listeners here. Oh remember what the hell it was but there used to be these books that were like 300 pages and had phone numbers for everybody.

167
00:23:26.100 –> 00:23:26.550
Oh, yeah.

168
00:23:27.630 –> 00:23:41.220
Ian Howells: So I’m flipping through the Yellow Pages looking for a printer and I come across a listing for pepper jam Internet marketing in Wilkes barre Pennsylvania and I’m 20 minutes north of Wilkes barre in Scranton PA at this point.

169
00:23:43.290 –> 00:23:59.430
Ian Howells: And I was like, What the hell, there’s an internet marketing company in Wilkes Barre, so then that leads me to their website, it was hilarious. The bad. It’s a super like 19th looking website if you go through the Internet Archive and look at what pepper jam calm, but I think it was

170
00:23:59.460 –> 00:24:00.360
Ian Howells: Pepper jam search

171
00:24:00.420 –> 00:24:04.440
Ian Howells: Com. At that point, looks like in like 2007 but

172
00:24:06.150 –> 00:24:11.910
Ian Howells: I ended up emailing the VP of search can moan with just like, hey,

173
00:24:12.600 –> 00:24:32.100
Ian Howells: I mean, how’s here’s some stuff that I’ve done, and just talk about like selling subscriptions to porn sites and poker online, not even thinking for a minute that like, hey, maybe this is kind of weird and like that and not the way to get a response from like an actual company doing

174
00:24:32.160 –> 00:24:33.030
Ian Howells: Internet marketing.

175
00:24:33.960 –> 00:24:39.360
Ian Howells: Turns out, though it was a great idea because they later told me like that was the reason that he answered the cold.

176
00:24:39.630 –> 00:24:46.140
Ian Howells: Email was like, Oh, somebody has built affiliate websites before and like gotten traffic through search and monetized it

177
00:24:46.560 –> 00:24:54.930
Ian Howells: And so had I not mentioned it, and was just like, oh, I’m a local college student at Mary, would I was wondering if there were internships or whatever he probably would have completely ignored me

178
00:24:55.920 –> 00:25:07.740
Ian Howells: But that got me a phone interview in person interview then internship my last semester of college and then college graduation was a Sunday that Monday I started at pepper jam full time.

179
00:25:08.970 –> 00:25:17.730
Ian Howells: Six months later I was running the SEO team at pepper jam in fairness, it didn’t even really exist when I got there was basically can the BP in one writer.

180
00:25:17.940 –> 00:25:26.490
Ian Howells: So he looked at it, it’s like, Okay, great. Here’s somebody that knows SEO like let me just dump this chunk of work off on him and he can run with it.

181
00:25:27.600 –> 00:25:38.580
Ian Howells: Short version three years later pepper jam cells to gtsi commerce down in Philadelphia. That’s where I meet Mr. The Willa. And my boss for like the nine minutes that he stuck around

182
00:25:40.140 –> 00:25:44.250
Jeff Louella: And though that was interesting times. I mean, Pepper jam. When we we bought

183
00:25:45.510 –> 00:25:57.480
Jeff Louella: We bought pepper jam for its affiliate network. Yep. And then it was interesting. And then like learning when we peel back some of the skins on the onion, see what’s behind there there was some fun things we found, but

184
00:25:57.540 –> 00:25:58.920
Ian Howells: Oh, it was garbage.

185
00:26:00.210 –> 00:26:03.030
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I think they had, like, once they got in there like crap.

186
00:26:03.240 –> 00:26:13.710
Jeff Louella: We bought, but it’s still around today and it seems like it’s it’s gotten better. But I remember just getting I come into the office and my boss at the time was just like

187
00:26:14.370 –> 00:26:22.800
Jeff Louella: Hey, we bought a company and they have an SEO team just drive up there and meet them and see see who you want to you know who you like up there and things like that so

188
00:26:23.550 –> 00:26:30.540
Jeff Louella: Me and Bill Sebald drove up there. I don’t know if you remember that day, but it was kind of it was fun. I think it was meet you, Eric and Todd.

189
00:26:32.310 –> 00:26:42.390
Jeff Louella: I think that was really the three they might have been someone else or two, but no, it was, it was interesting time and right there. Like, I think we all got kind of got along really well and

190
00:26:44.100 –> 00:26:51.720
Jeff Louella: And after that, you kind of taught me some things about affiliates and I think we use some or at least I used I’ll say some auto blogging tools that

191
00:26:52.440 –> 00:26:55.890
Jeff Louella: Got me a little bit of money that I learned I was because I always want to learn to kind of the

192
00:26:56.640 –> 00:27:10.890
Jeff Louella: The darker side of SEO. And at that time I was I was still somewhat newer I was a developer who moved into SEO when I was at Razorfish, and then right my second job was at GSA and you will learn that a deal size network. He couldn’t do much on

193
00:27:11.970 –> 00:27:16.920
Jeff Louella: The and every time I would go to a client. So you have to fix this, this and this and they’re like, well, we can’t because our platform is bad.

194
00:27:18.150 –> 00:27:19.920
Ian Howells: And by the way, our platforms you

195
00:27:20.460 –> 00:27:21.090
Jeff Louella: Yeah, exactly.

196
00:27:22.830 –> 00:27:23.730
Ian Howells: slightly awkward.

197
00:27:25.290 –> 00:27:31.500
Jeff Louella: So that that was always an issue there. But we, but yeah. When I got to meet you at that point it was, it was awesome. And then

198
00:27:32.010 –> 00:27:38.880
Jeff Louella: I just, you know, was hitting my head against the wall bunch of times there and you had some falling outs between me and some of the

199
00:27:39.540 –> 00:27:46.110
Jeff Louella: I’ll say I was in a weird position because I wasn’t leadership, but I reported all to the like the major leadership there.

200
00:27:46.770 –> 00:28:00.510
Jeff Louella: But then with the people in my life I was the only one who wasn’t like a VP or director level with all in all, the VP meetings. And then when I would go back to everyone who was like the same level as me. They wouldn’t want to talk to me because I thought I was a snitch.

201
00:28:02.760 –> 00:28:04.290
Ian Howells: The plant the leadership.

202
00:28:05.310 –> 00:28:05.610
Jeff Louella: It.

203
00:28:06.120 –> 00:28:14.430
Jeff Louella: Was I was caught out that one time in a meeting. They said, like when I was in there like they thought I was the leadership, like a snitch on the leadership. And I’m like, I’m the opposite of that. Like, I’ll tell you everything they’re doing

204
00:28:15.780 –> 00:28:16.320
Jeff Louella: It but uh

205
00:28:16.440 –> 00:28:17.040
Awkward.

206
00:28:18.180 –> 00:28:21.780
Ian Howells: Guys, don’t get me wrong, I’m a terrible employee. I’m not helping them.

207
00:28:23.850 –> 00:28:31.590
Jeff Louella: And those meetings were just all insane anyway. But, so I would go through things and eventually I just told Bill as I go. I had to leave.

208
00:28:31.980 –> 00:28:38.310
Jeff Louella: And at that point, they decided that they were going to make be part of the leadership and like, Well, no, that’s not like I’m already made my decision.

209
00:28:38.970 –> 00:28:46.080
Jeff Louella: But the fun part was I had to the person who was in charge of the platform come to me because I always complained him about how bad the platform was

210
00:28:46.500 –> 00:28:54.330
Jeff Louella: So like they were coming out with like platform 11 or something and he they tried to get me to stay and become part of the platform team to make the platform or SEO friendly.

211
00:28:55.170 –> 00:29:06.750
Jeff Louella: Because that was always my plan was like you make the platform better every client, we have on it is better. Why are we trying to sell our clients SEO when we can fix our platform. And we got a percentage of all sales. We could have made it better.

212
00:29:07.890 –> 00:29:21.120
Jeff Louella: Than I heard like that platform didn’t really do very well and then eBay bought everybody and then it became like, then it was like an interesting I saw how they merge everything packaged it like fanatics com came out from that and then

213
00:29:21.450 –> 00:29:37.440
Ian Howells: Man, Michael Rubin is like, just like God damn. I don’t know how the hell he talked a bay and the letting him keep fanatics and the official league stores out of that deal and still walked away with two two or two 4 billion.

214
00:29:38.640 –> 00:29:39.120
Ian Howells: Amazing.

215
00:29:39.960 –> 00:29:42.120
Jeff Louella: And I see, I’m a big Sixers fan.

216
00:29:42.630 –> 00:29:47.910
Jeff Louella: And I see him sitting on the sidelines and next to like Allen Iverson and Meek Mill’s and I’m just like,

217
00:29:48.240 –> 00:29:54.120
Jeff Louella: Not bad. Not a bad job because, I mean, I’ve got, I had a couple meetings with him, where I got the pitch and he was

218
00:29:54.690 –> 00:30:01.140
Jeff Louella: He’s a smart dude. He was very energetic, you know, and I was great. But it was interesting time where it’s like, once he sold them like

219
00:30:01.650 –> 00:30:09.570
Jeff Louella: Hey, you started some sneakers out of the back of his mom’s car is kind of like a Amazon story in a way, you know, not as big, right. He’s not millionaire, but at the same time.

220
00:30:09.930 –> 00:30:11.160
Ian Howells: Thanks. All right, I think.

221
00:30:12.450 –> 00:30:13.500
Jeff Louella: For billions. Not too bad.

222
00:30:13.800 –> 00:30:18.000
Jeff Louella: You know and and become a minority owner of the Sixers and running.

223
00:30:18.240 –> 00:30:19.440
Ian Howells: fanatics and still

224
00:30:19.530 –> 00:30:24.450
Ian Howells: crushing it just that even if he had nothing else in the past. Just that alone like he’s

225
00:30:24.840 –> 00:30:28.830
Jeff Louella: Good at anything by rue La La are also some of those others flash sale site.

226
00:30:28.860 –> 00:30:30.600
Ian Howells: Yeah, real law was rolled in.

227
00:30:31.770 –> 00:30:42.600
Ian Howells: Mostly for the the email. We bought we being gtsi while I was there CLEAR SAILING so order attribution company out of Ohio. I think in like

228
00:30:42.630 –> 00:30:42.870
Jeff Louella: I was

229
00:30:42.990 –> 00:30:44.280
Ian Howells: Out in a lemon

230
00:30:44.520 –> 00:30:46.440
Jeff Louella: I was the person to introduce them all.

231
00:30:46.560 –> 00:30:53.790
Jeff Louella: Because I was a I was friends with some people over CLEAR SAILING and they asked me to introduce them to the analytics team.

232
00:30:55.020 –> 00:30:56.310
Jeff Louella: I was hoping I got a kick, but

233
00:30:57.360 –> 00:31:00.000
Jeff Louella: I left before that even like fully materialized but

234
00:31:01.020 –> 00:31:08.640
Ian Howells: But no, that was I guess just to complete kind of the, the career arc overview here gtsi

235
00:31:09.540 –> 00:31:23.700
Ian Howells: Jeff left very shortly after I got there, Bill Sebald was running the team. Start of 2011 bill Sebald decides he’s had enough. And he gets out of there. So then the hot potato goes to me run the SEO team inside there.

236
00:31:24.030 –> 00:31:34.830
Ian Howells: Jeff and I were talking before we started recording here. It had like 19 names because they kept hired new creative directors and day one every creative director wanted to rebrand the agency.

237
00:31:35.640 –> 00:31:47.160
Ian Howells: Eventually eBay buys the thing I lose interest pretty rapidly after we become part of eBay, like HR turned into, literally, here’s a phone number for a call center in Utah.

238
00:31:48.810 –> 00:31:57.900
Ian Howells: Call them if you need anything, right, like when you have that many employees, like, yeah, you’re not going to have big HR teams in each office, it would be crazy. So it makes sense, but

239
00:31:58.560 –> 00:32:06.570
Ian Howells: Wasn’t wasn’t for me and to 2012 end up going moving down to Charlotte, North Carolina, where I still am to work at Red ventures.

240
00:32:07.380 –> 00:32:21.570
Ian Howells: Ran, one of the the SEO teams in there until 2016 left RV in 2016 to head up the SEO team at lending tree and did that from 16 until

241
00:32:22.140 –> 00:32:33.720
Ian Howells: August of 2019 like I like I mentioned briefly before and now in the meantime affiliate stuff consulting launch Traffic Think Tank two years in a couple months ago now.

242
00:32:34.410 –> 00:32:39.270
Ian Howells: So always had kind of stuff going on outside of the main full time job. But that’s kind of the

243
00:32:39.870 –> 00:32:48.510
Ian Howells: The rough shape of the full time work with small agency with pepper jam get bought by a bigger agency in the form of gtsi eBay nine other different names.

244
00:32:49.470 –> 00:32:55.860
Ian Howells: In house to red ventures, which was a really interesting blend of in house and agency, because at that point.

245
00:32:56.400 –> 00:33:06.540
Ian Howells: RV didn’t really own their own website properties. It was licensed like it would be branded domains for DirecTV or ADT

246
00:33:07.470 –> 00:33:16.020
Ian Howells: So it was in partnership with large companies. So we were kind of an affiliate, but kind of in house because all the dev and tech and everything happened internally.

247
00:33:16.560 –> 00:33:36.660
Ian Howells: And then in house at back to a public company in house a lending tree and kind of getting reacquainted with the pros and cons of being at a large public co with, you know, the pros being most things comp related and the cons being the general speed at which things can get done.

248
00:33:37.650 –> 00:33:38.310
lack thereof.

249
00:33:40.380 –> 00:33:52.800
Jacob Stoops: So let’s talk about Traffic Think Tank, you guys are two plus years into that. Now, what led to that. Like what’s behind the idea. What’s it like today in terms of running that

250
00:33:53.400 –> 00:34:05.370
Ian Howells: Yeah, I think what led to it really Eubanks So Nick, did traffic thing tag. The one I guess you would call it on his own. So it was

251
00:34:06.450 –> 00:34:18.330
Ian Howells: Similar and very different at the same time. So he limited to I think 12 people but higher price point. It was 500 bucks a month.

252
00:34:18.780 –> 00:34:24.090
Ian Howells: But you had to sign up for the year. So basically he got 12 people to sign on for six grand

253
00:34:24.630 –> 00:34:34.020
Ian Howells: And then it was a Facebook group at that point. So like a 13 person Facebook group. So these 12 people and Nick. So, a lot more

254
00:34:34.380 –> 00:34:41.850
Ian Howells: Kind of deeper one on one individual consultation, because there’s only 12 people right like that’s a decently manageable.

255
00:34:42.540 –> 00:34:54.420
Ian Howells: Number to kind of go more in depth with with every single person. And part of what he did was each month he would do one like guest webinar on zoom right basically just

256
00:34:54.930 –> 00:35:02.490
Ian Howells: People, he knew from the industry through his own network would just ask, like, Hey, would you, would you be cool with coming on and doing a webinar for these folks.

257
00:35:03.390 –> 00:35:11.850
Ian Howells: He bought me some really good mine in exchange for doing it, which I didn’t know what was gonna happen when I said yes but like was a very nice Park afterward.

258
00:35:12.330 –> 00:35:23.100
Ian Howells: So I had done a webinar for him. And then he was starting to kind of come to the end of the 12 months, I think it was in like month nine or something.

259
00:35:23.700 –> 00:35:26.310
Ian Howells: And I had just made like a very offhandedly like

260
00:35:26.940 –> 00:35:39.510
Ian Howells: Hey, if you’re going to do TGT again like let me know if you know there’s a way for me to get involved or whatever, like something benign and kind of off the cuff. I had no Nick at that point.

261
00:35:40.050 –> 00:35:50.940
Ian Howells: Nick and I met into late 2010 or early 2011 through the Philadelphia SEO meetup SEO grill, which was phenomenal and like

262
00:35:51.600 –> 00:36:03.270
Ian Howells: Just an absurd roster of people. So we can go into that in a minute to so I didn’t know Nick for several years at this point. So just kind of threw that offer out there like, hey, if you’re looking to do more with this thing. Let me know.

263
00:36:04.500 –> 00:36:12.120
Ian Howells: And he had gotten back and was like, actually. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot. Like, I think the model makes sense.

264
00:36:13.290 –> 00:36:23.160
Ian Howells: If it scales up like I think we could scale up membership and bring down the price. So it’s not like you got to sign up for six grand for a year, right off the bat.

265
00:36:24.000 –> 00:36:32.490
Ian Howells: And kind of reach more people because at that point, you know, and I’m talking about like a history. It’s two years and four months ago, or whenever

266
00:36:34.650 –> 00:36:44.220
Ian Howells: You think about SEO book in that community kind of getting shuttered because Aaron had decided that he was going to kind of step back from doing that.

267
00:36:44.580 –> 00:37:03.150
Ian Howells: So that left kind of a void where. Okay, there was a paid SEO forum that ran. I think it was 99 bucks a month. So like not a in substantial price point, like a good gate to make sure that everybody in there was serious, so that it kind of left a void, and then

268
00:37:04.380 –> 00:37:07.020
Ian Howells: The mas community at that point was in a

269
00:37:07.860 –> 00:37:18.000
Ian Howells: Let’s call it a bit of turmoil. Right. Eventually, like they end up having to do layoffs and all that stuff that’s part of mothers history now that we don’t have to go into. But there was generally a

270
00:37:18.390 –> 00:37:30.720
Ian Howells: A lack of I think outside of Twitter but Twitter is very noisy and chaotic. There wasn’t a great like single point of community at least that I was aware of

271
00:37:31.770 –> 00:37:33.570
Ian Howells: So that felt like

272
00:37:34.620 –> 00:37:39.330
Ian Howells: To nick that felt like a big opportunity and I was less certain.

273
00:37:39.870 –> 00:37:51.480
Ian Howells: Matthew Howells-Barby, same kind of general opinion he did a big LinkedIn post about kind of the, the formation of traffic think tank where he says, much the same thing that like he wasn’t as confident as Nick was

274
00:37:51.960 –> 00:38:07.440
Ian Howells: You had Nick on already. I think one of the things that became probably very clear within the first few minutes of talking to him is that super high energy will make decisions quickly and then once he decides he’s going to do a thing like he’s he’s going to do the damn thing.

275
00:38:08.580 –> 00:38:19.710
Ian Howells: So he was kind of more bullish on it. I was like, maybe we’ll get 100 members like we can probably get 100 people that are serious enough that they’ll pay 99 bucks a month to join the thing

276
00:38:20.820 –> 00:38:31.440
Ian Howells: And I guess short story long. It went over a lot better than I initially thought. And it wasn’t until like month three where it was like oh shit like this could be

277
00:38:31.980 –> 00:38:41.640
Ian Howells: Like this could be a real thing. Like there is more appetite for this than I thought. I think what I discounted incorrectly. In the beginning was the

278
00:38:42.270 –> 00:38:52.740
Ian Howells: Amount of people that are individual affiliates and are just kind of like sitting in a home office by themselves all day grinding away doing their thing.

279
00:38:53.280 –> 00:39:06.540
Ian Howells: And people that are like the one online marketing person at their company right like digital is this one person and nobody else in the company knows what the hell they do.

280
00:39:06.930 –> 00:39:23.730
Ian Howells: They don’t have anybody to bounce ideas off of because again, nobody knows what the hell they’re doing all day and I think I just had a general lack of awareness of how many people find themselves in that situation. And I feel like that’s a need that we ended up filling

281
00:39:25.800 –> 00:39:27.750
Ian Howells: Hopefully, very well. So

282
00:39:28.050 –> 00:39:37.920
Jacob Stoops: One thing that occurred to me especially when you mentioned initially. Now, obviously, it’s much lower. Now it’s that initial $6,000 price point.

283
00:39:38.370 –> 00:39:53.340
Jacob Stoops: And I guess for for me thinking about like fine running that probably Nick being a more confident person than I would be like, Nope, I got this. Is that a lot of money to ask for people and it’s like

284
00:39:54.660 –> 00:40:04.890
Jacob Stoops: How do you bring enough value to justify somebody paying you that much money with with what you guys are doing that would feel like a lot of pressure.

285
00:40:05.640 –> 00:40:12.930
Jacob Stoops: Pressure to me. And I just wonder, how do you guys kind of manage that on ongoing in terms of making sure that the value is is there for the for the members.

286
00:40:13.350 –> 00:40:22.500
Ian Howells: So in the the first iteration. And again, this was 100% next on semi speculating here, but I’m fairly confident, how he basically positioned. It was like

287
00:40:23.190 –> 00:40:32.220
Ian Howells: Almost like your pre buying consulting time with him right so like it was the original 12 members if I’m remembering correctly. We’re all

288
00:40:32.940 –> 00:40:46.470
Ian Howells: people that own their own econ business or Legion business right like it wasn’t affiliates. It wasn’t the one full time marketing person at a company. It was the owner of a very small digital company.

289
00:40:46.950 –> 00:40:55.140
Ian Howells: That basically viewed this as I am purchasing $6,000 worth of strategy consulting from this person who knows what they’re doing.

290
00:40:55.500 –> 00:41:10.170
Ian Howells: I have a junior person or I can do like I have execution figured out what I need is guidance to make sure that I’m not shooting myself in the foot and that I’m doing smart things, I think, was basically the the rough

291
00:41:11.040 –> 00:41:20.910
Ian Howells: Outline of positioning there, which in that light, it makes sense, right, because if you think about an hourly SEO consulting right 500 bucks a month is a joke right so

292
00:41:21.330 –> 00:41:35.160
Ian Howells: I think with that angle it made sense. And then for him. I think attractive 12 people same 12 people, you get to go pretty deep with everybody. So you can kind of have more meaningful connections and results.

293
00:41:35.910 –> 00:41:44.430
Ian Howells: But now for us. I think the the responsibility part is interesting, I think, as the community has gotten bigger

294
00:41:44.940 –> 00:41:51.090
Ian Howells: We’ve gotten less and less reliant on me, Nick and Matt right because like first 50 members like

295
00:41:51.600 –> 00:41:58.980
Ian Howells: Munich and Matt one of us had to answer every single question that came in and slack. And I think as the community has grown

296
00:41:59.670 –> 00:42:08.340
Ian Howells: It’s now gotten to a point where, by the time I see a question come in, there’ll be three or four answers in a thread already from other people who

297
00:42:09.090 –> 00:42:16.770
Ian Howells: All know you know what they’re what they’re talking about every once in a while they’ll be like an idea for another whatever that will come in and be like, and maybe

298
00:42:17.880 –> 00:42:23.880
Ian Howells: Maybe don’t do that exactly but like Core Kernel of the idea is good. Like I would do XYZ

299
00:42:24.480 –> 00:42:33.150
Ian Howells: And so I think the the kind of self reinforcing aspect of the Community has been super exciting to watch kind of take take shape and continue to grow.

300
00:42:33.870 –> 00:42:41.850
Ian Howells: But it is. I think it is a responsibility on us to make sure that we continue to produce you know stuff that’s

301
00:42:42.270 –> 00:42:51.840
Ian Howells: Timely and useful in a variety of situations. I think that’s probably the hard part is trying to make sure that you’re creating guidance and resources that is

302
00:42:52.800 –> 00:42:57.000
Ian Howells: That are applicable to people in a variety of roles, because we have

303
00:42:57.720 –> 00:43:09.480
Ian Howells: Members in I think 21 of the 24 time zones working on every industry, you could imagine, right. So you have to try and make sure that you’re really hitting the, the core

304
00:43:10.050 –> 00:43:18.360
Ian Howells: Of a concept or idea and make sure that it’s actually useful for the community at large. And then the other piece is just ensuring that we continue to tap

305
00:43:19.950 –> 00:43:26.220
Ian Howells: Other experts in the community come on and talk about the stuff that they’re good at, right. So like having Hamlet. Come on.

306
00:43:26.700 –> 00:43:31.740
Ian Howells: And do a Python webinar was like extremely useful for a bunch of folks so we try and make sure that

307
00:43:32.160 –> 00:43:49.290
Ian Howells: You know we we keep our finger on the pulse of what what sort of stuff does the community want and then go out and see, okay, if that’s not like I can’t write Python to save my goddamn life. So when it’s something that like we can’t do go find somebody who can and bring him on so

308
00:43:49.440 –> 00:43:58.290
Jacob Stoops: Last question I want to ask in it’s not as much of a question is more of like, what’s it like in before we move on to the news.

309
00:43:59.160 –> 00:44:09.330
Jacob Stoops: You guys are. I think it’s your second event Traffic Think Tank live, which by the way it is. On May 16, it is not in Philadelphia. It’s in Miami.

310
00:44:10.050 –> 00:44:28.290
Jacob Stoops: For and I’m going to give you a quick promo for non members. It’s $349 for members traffic thing take members. It’s $149 for a ticket. So go bye bye bye attend attend attend, but I want to know. And I asked, Nick, the same question. What’s it like to put on an event.

311
00:44:28.650 –> 00:44:38.610
Ian Howells: Though was dumb. It was like it was so much more like when you talk like I’ve said a few times. Like my general lack of awareness like

312
00:44:39.060 –> 00:44:57.480
Ian Howells: I think all three of us were inflicted with that on this one. It was like, Oh, how much work. Can it be into a one day conference, like what could possibly be involved in this. Turns out there’s a dumb amount of work involved in running a conference we did the first one by ourselves.

313
00:44:58.920 –> 00:45:08.100
Ian Howells: Mistake. I don’t know. It was good that we did it because we realized very quickly. Like, how much is actually involved and how

314
00:45:08.100 –> 00:45:17.010
Ian Howells: Like, you should just hire a professional. If you’re gonna throw an event like just hire an event planner. And so we had

315
00:45:18.030 –> 00:45:24.360
Ian Howells: Yeah, it was hectic. So like literally 10 minutes before registration started the morning of the conference.

316
00:45:24.750 –> 00:45:32.010
Ian Howells: We were still working with the AV guy from the Hilton to try and get us to the point where slides would project onto the screen like

317
00:45:32.760 –> 00:45:42.510
Ian Howells: Everything was just going wrong like anything that could go wrong went wrong, like it was a good kind of intro, you know, kick in the face for

318
00:45:43.110 –> 00:45:55.020
Ian Howells: For running an event. But now, you know, thankfully, it still went over fine the presenters, all you know stepped up and delivered and talks were really good getting

319
00:45:55.410 –> 00:46:05.940
Ian Howells: I think the really great thing was getting all of these people that are used to interacting and slack together in person was awesome, right, because now all of a sudden

320
00:46:06.390 –> 00:46:15.900
Ian Howells: You have all these conversations happening where then light bulbs are going off, like, Oh, you’re a bubble. Like I recognize your, you know, Avatar and whatever, like you have all these folks who were talking online.

321
00:46:16.170 –> 00:46:21.390
Ian Howells: Now, getting to meet in person. So that was, that was awesome. And then this year.

322
00:46:23.160 –> 00:46:33.150
Ian Howells: Version we hired an event planning company they had done one of the earlier mas cons. So not only used to event planning, but also for our particular industry.

323
00:46:33.840 –> 00:46:48.870
Ian Howells: And that is worth every single penny that a good event planner will charge you because there’s so much stuff that we just had no idea about that she is just breezing through and it makes life a million times easier.

324
00:46:49.230 –> 00:46:57.600
Jacob Stoops: I feel like it probably gives you guys more of an opportunity to focus on the the content in the in the speakers and the and the quality and not worry about the minutia.

325
00:46:57.690 –> 00:47:07.530
Ian Howells: And that’s basically our only job this time around, which is great that we don’t have to get on the phone and talk about like Wi Fi connectivity in the room and chair covers and nonsense like that.

326
00:47:08.040 –> 00:47:15.750
Jacob Stoops: was awful. It’s like when you get married, you have to think about things like paying half people cut your cake for you or just

327
00:47:18.330 –> 00:47:18.840
Jacob Stoops: God

328
00:47:19.530 –> 00:47:20.340
Jeff Louella: It was a wedding planner.

329
00:47:20.970 –> 00:47:21.780
Jacob Stoops: Right, exactly.

330
00:47:21.900 –> 00:47:23.220
Ian Howells: Right, same, same idea you

331
00:47:23.460 –> 00:47:30.660
Jeff Louella: Know, I mean, it’s funny, thinking of the same way. So I used to run a homebrew club and we started off and it was

332
00:47:31.380 –> 00:47:43.290
Jeff Louella: Kind of out of just wanting to meet people in the industry. Next thing I know, we have like 300 members and like, I’m just, I ain’t got overwhelming for me to an extent, especially since I at that time recently had twins.

333
00:47:44.220 –> 00:47:49.650
Jeff Louella: Which, you know, adds a little, you know, cramped to going okay I’m going out drinking from a with a bunch of guys

334
00:47:51.510 –> 00:47:52.080
Jacob Stoops: With my kids.

335
00:47:53.190 –> 00:47:58.800
Jeff Louella: But, uh, but it was like everything they’re just setting it up. And that was just like one night a month and like I

336
00:47:59.100 –> 00:48:09.030
Jeff Louella: But I always did it kind of like this podcast right we we always wanted to have a good guest. So I was always trying to get like head brewers for all the local breweries and in Philadelphia, that time.

337
00:48:09.390 –> 00:48:15.510
Jeff Louella: Which there were a bunch and we would come in. We’ve talked about brewing have them like how that kind of like this podcast, how they got into it because

338
00:48:15.960 –> 00:48:24.690
Jeff Louella: As a home brewer, like a lot of people have dreams that open up their own brewery one day and real brewers will talk you out of it. They’re like, hey, do you want to be.

339
00:48:26.340 –> 00:48:33.870
Jeff Louella: Do you want to actually be a janitor because 99% where you are when you’re abroad because brewing beer is 5% of actually owning a brewery so

340
00:48:34.650 –> 00:48:39.450
Jeff Louella: But it was interesting that way. And I always want to being part of SEO grill.

341
00:48:40.230 –> 00:48:49.380
Jeff Louella: Like I kind of now being in Atlanta. Like, we really don’t have that close connection and I’d love to be able to like build one down here and I just know the amount of work. It’s going to take

342
00:48:49.830 –> 00:48:56.670
Jeff Louella: And, and, you know, I couldn’t imagine trying to actually have like 5000 people come in for a conference and how much work that actually takes

343
00:48:58.590 –> 00:48:59.460
Ian Howells: Yeah, it’s

344
00:49:00.540 –> 00:49:01.740
Ian Howells: It’s funny, like the

345
00:49:03.240 –> 00:49:15.960
Ian Howells: The finding good speakers and getting people to come and talk and like the logistics of that actually isn’t hard. The hardest part is when you get down to like we can have five

346
00:49:16.500 –> 00:49:27.360
Ian Howells: Who are the five people that we think are going to get on stage and like deliver something new that hasn’t been rehashed at 50 other conferences already right and so

347
00:49:28.140 –> 00:49:37.440
Ian Howells: And that’s the like the hard part on the, the speaker side, right, I think, thankfully, we’re in a community where like, generally, people are looking to

348
00:49:38.040 –> 00:49:49.380
Ian Howells: To share and talk about the stuff that they we, you know, have learned over the years, I think, you know, Nick Matt and I fortunate that we’re connected to

349
00:49:49.980 –> 00:50:02.790
Ian Howells: Folks like Jon Cooper, who generally don’t do the conference speaking thing like he’s not out there that’s an accent se es every season, you know, given it is same presentation over and over again.

350
00:50:03.840 –> 00:50:15.600
Ian Howells: But when we hit him up and we’re like, hey, we’re bringing a conference basically to your backyard, you’d like two hours away. Do you want to come speak like he’ll say yes and come to it.

351
00:50:15.600 –> 00:50:16.560
Ian Howells: So I think we’re

352
00:50:16.620 –> 00:50:31.140
Ian Howells: fortunate in that respect to it’s really just all the the minutia of like the actual logistical of event planning portion of it. That’s the hard part. And like I said, hiring a pro to take that weight off of our shoulders is

353
00:50:32.190 –> 00:50:32.790
Ian Howells: Amazing.

354
00:50:33.870 –> 00:50:34.350
It’s awesome.

355
00:50:35.910 –> 00:50:36.630
Jacob Stoops: So Jeff, what’s

356
00:50:38.130 –> 00:50:48.090
Jeff Louella: Cool. So it wasn’t really any major I’m going to say news is sweet, but there’s a bunch of little things. And a lot of times you know NEWS TODAY IS LIKE WHEN JOHN MUELLER says something

357
00:50:49.380 –> 00:50:57.180
Jeff Louella: So there was a lot of that because of his, his little town hall things that he runs, there were. So one of the big things.

358
00:50:57.930 –> 00:51:06.390
Jeff Louella: Was, you know, search engines get as search engines get better at intent, he basically said like keyword research is not going to go away, which

359
00:51:07.170 –> 00:51:17.670
Jeff Louella: You know, I look at it all as as much as Google comes out with Burt and all these different machine learnings. It is really based off the data that you’re giving it and that data is content.

360
00:51:18.630 –> 00:51:23.910
Jeff Louella: And, you know, knowing what search engines. You know what people are typing. It’s still always going to be important.

361
00:51:25.620 –> 00:51:30.660
Jeff Louella: And even I know like having different affiliate sites out there like and being very nice like

362
00:51:31.320 –> 00:51:38.340
Jeff Louella: Doing that keyword research are doing that, like research and gentleness, a keyword in an industry is ultra important to be able to

363
00:51:38.790 –> 00:51:53.430
Jeff Louella: Like if you’re going to start a site on something where no one is searching. There’s no nothing about it. Like, what’s the point of doing that right so so research is super important. I don’t know. I mean, I guess that it’s probably not much to go deeper into that one. But it seems like

364
00:51:55.500 –> 00:52:05.790
Jacob Stoops: This is where a yellow, yellow about things. So, so if you’re looking at. And this is an article on search engine roundtable THIS WEEK FROM WHAT IS IT THE 10th. It’s from yesterday. Yeah.

365
00:52:06.180 –> 00:52:12.540
Jacob Stoops: This so John’s response didn’t just come out of the blue. Right. It came in response because it’s

366
00:52:13.020 –> 00:52:24.690
Jacob Stoops: Beginning of 2020 so everybody’s making their big 2020 predictions. I’m Rick debut. Debut I doubt i’m pronouncing his name wrong and I’m and I’m going to go on record as saying that

367
00:52:25.140 –> 00:52:43.140
Jacob Stoops: This guy is probably way smarter than me. So maybe I have no fucking clue what I’m talking about. But he is. He is the person in charge of beings overall course search team and he is has essentially predicted predicted that this is the year that keyword research becomes obsolete.

368
00:52:43.680 –> 00:52:44.850
Jeff Louella: Which it’s coming.

369
00:52:44.880 –> 00:52:58.710
Jacob Stoops: And it’s just funny. The difference between what people have been you’re saying what people Google are saying and I agree with Jeff and I will say there. I wish there would be more times where we have disagreements, but we seem to be like

370
00:53:00.090 –> 00:53:12.600
Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand how researching and understanding if the data is available, what people are searching for when that becomes obsolete, like, in what way just because search engines are better.

371
00:53:13.200 –> 00:53:21.840
Jacob Stoops: At surfacing up a matching content to the particular queries like, Why the hell, wouldn’t we want to know what people are searching for, like, that’s

372
00:53:22.560 –> 00:53:30.990
Jacob Stoops: Data. Like, why wouldn’t we want that data. Why would we stop looking for that data, all of a sudden, just because search engines are good at matching. It just doesn’t make any freakin sense and it makes me wonder where the

373
00:53:31.320 –> 00:53:38.340
Jacob Stoops: Where the hell is their head at on the big side that they’re like coming out and saying stupid stuff like this. So I don’t know.

374
00:53:38.670 –> 00:53:40.200
Ian Howells: Well, I mean what smart.

375
00:53:40.320 –> 00:53:58.590
Ian Howells: smart decisions on search from bang would be a whole new frontier for us right so I you know bad takes coming from the big team is not something that expands incredible surprising here. Enjoy your 3% market share and continue with your hot takes, I guess.

376
00:53:58.950 –> 00:54:03.750
Jeff Louella: Yeah now. And it’s funny because there’s another news article out there about being loses out to duck, duck, go.

377
00:54:04.800 –> 00:54:06.900
Jeff Louella: In Google’s new kind of Android.

378
00:54:07.920 –> 00:54:11.700
Jeff Louella: They came out of, like, a search ballot and asks countries in Europe, because they’ve

379
00:54:12.630 –> 00:54:18.690
Jeff Louella: They got sued. You know that because they promote Google on Android devices, you know, makes sense that they would do that but

380
00:54:19.320 –> 00:54:30.120
Jeff Louella: You know, it also makes sense that that’s kind of, you know, playing a little bit of monopoly, so they they put out a ballot to people in different countries through the EU or what search engines. They want listed

381
00:54:30.750 –> 00:54:47.280
Jeff Louella: At like that you can change to besides Google. So the idea is like Google is probably going to be default, but if you want to change it. What ones get listed on there. And for most of Europe DuckDuckGo is well actually DuckDuckGo is number two, and every you country.

382
00:54:48.630 –> 00:55:00.990
Jeff Louella: And being is only in a certain amount of info.com and Queen and privacy Waller all before being so the only one that being kind of beat out DuckDuckGo

383
00:55:01.290 –> 00:55:06.540
Jeff Louella: Or any of the other ones was in the United Kingdom and we know everything with Brexit. Now it’s a

384
00:55:07.050 –> 00:55:20.460
Jeff Louella: It’s one of those things where it’s like every other country, you know, Italy, Lithuania, Iceland, Greece, everyone picked up. Don’t go in there. I’m not saying there’s the writing on the wall for being or anything like that, because being is is

385
00:55:21.480 –> 00:55:29.640
Jeff Louella: It’s funny because we compare them to Google, which is like 90% of everything well being, is it can the rest of world is still a leader to some of that but

386
00:55:30.210 –> 00:55:36.810
Jeff Louella: It is an interesting approach. What’s going on these days and DuckDuckGo is really pushing privacy, which I think is

387
00:55:37.560 –> 00:55:44.370
Jeff Louella: It’s interesting. I tried to stop using Google and use duck, duck, go for a couple months and then when I switch back to Google. I was like,

388
00:55:44.790 –> 00:55:55.230
Jeff Louella: Oh, all these things like complain about as an SEO, like, as a user, I are actually really good. It’s like, you know, pushes my 10 blue links down to the bottom like I missed that. DuckDuckGo does not have that so

389
00:55:56.640 –> 00:56:01.200
Jacob Stoops: I will say I like what DuckDuckGoes trying to do. I like their style.

390
00:56:01.620 –> 00:56:03.870
Jeff Louella: But when a duck, duck go shirt on. Yeah.

391
00:56:03.900 –> 00:56:05.640
Jacob Stoops: Right. Oh, you do have a duck, duck, go.

392
00:56:07.200 –> 00:56:09.990
Jacob Stoops: I don’t know where you would purchase such a thing. Maybe on affiliate site.

393
00:56:10.020 –> 00:56:10.740
Jeff Louella: On DuckDuckGo

394
00:56:12.240 –> 00:56:18.300
Jacob Stoops: But, um, I think the big advantage that being still has is their

395
00:56:18.870 –> 00:56:30.960
Jacob Stoops: inroads into other markets, similar to Google, like Google builds phones Google Now builds computers. Google does all kinds of shit. Well guess what, so does Microsoft. They have a massive browser with a lot of people still using it.

396
00:56:31.320 –> 00:56:46.200
Jacob Stoops: They do computers. They do all kinds of stuff. And guess what they’re going to make you use Bing on all of those things. It’s actually surprising, given the amount of users that they have that being isn’t representing representing more of a marketing share but that’s, I think,

397
00:56:46.770 –> 00:56:57.360
Jacob Stoops: Because Google has basically become so so big that they’re almost a verb. Now I don’t search something I Google it. I don’t DuckDuckGo it I don’t bring it I Google it. So,

398
00:56:58.020 –> 00:57:11.040
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, that’s it’s, it’s interesting. I don’t know if DuckDuckGo can ever overcome. You know, the advantages that those other two big players have with respect to the business, but I do like their style and I like their tenacity.

399
00:57:11.730 –> 00:57:19.350
Jeff Louella: And I don’t think their goal is to be bigger than Google, right, because I’m guessing there. I feel they’re pulling stuff in from Google. I don’t know exactly how they get the result.

400
00:57:19.380 –> 00:57:20.550
Jacob Stoops: Like the anti Google

401
00:57:21.300 –> 00:57:30.900
Jeff Louella: Yes. And there’s gonna always be a group of people who will enjoy that. Right. So as Google gets bigger and, you know, evil or

402
00:57:31.830 –> 00:57:43.050
Jeff Louella: And like basically the benefits of them sharing all my data between all the tools is convenient to some things, but some people don’t want all that data shared so DuckDuckGo would be great for that. So,

403
00:57:44.580 –> 00:57:52.650
Jacob Stoops: We, who is Sundar Pichai is he basically Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies. Is that is that who he is now.

404
00:57:53.940 –> 00:57:54.810
That the

405
00:57:56.070 –> 00:57:57.210
Jacob Stoops: CEO of Google, I think.

406
00:57:57.210 –> 00:57:57.570
Jeff Louella: That

407
00:57:57.690 –> 00:58:08.340
Jacob Stoops: Those missions is don’t be evil, but I feel like increasingly they’re becoming they’re becoming a little bit more evil, just like Facebook. And I just wonder if maybe Dr. Evil running both of those.

408
00:58:10.170 –> 00:58:19.650
Jeff Louella: You know, I feel, Google. It’s when you have so much data. Right. It’s like, there are certain like they have more data than anyone probably in the whole world right now and it’s

409
00:58:20.070 –> 00:58:27.870
Jeff Louella: Just being able to make things more convenient kind of seems evil. I remember when they started running ads inside of Gmail and part of it was like

410
00:58:28.500 –> 00:58:34.080
Jeff Louella: There would be a something that would read your email. So that would give you an ad based off the content inside of your email.

411
00:58:34.440 –> 00:58:40.920
Jeff Louella: And the world flipped basically like you’re reading my emails and it’s, you know, just like, shut it off right now but Alexa

412
00:58:41.910 –> 00:58:55.680
Jeff Louella: You know, when we, you know, they’re always listening, but like, are they fully listening or they just listening for the word Alexa, I think some people jump on the evil thing very quickly does not necessarily. I don’t think they’re evil, but I also think that

413
00:58:57.030 –> 00:59:07.980
Jeff Louella: They can be very easily. Right, and I think they remove that whole, don’t be evil thing out of there. Yeah, so it’s those where we feel you’re not you’re not evil, but you’re also not

414
00:59:08.760 –> 00:59:17.190
Jeff Louella: You know it, you’re not planting trees where if you search that like other people are doing right and and things like that. So they are definitely a for profit company.

415
00:59:17.880 –> 00:59:21.420
Jacob Stoops: They start building a Death Star. Then I’m going to be really well.

416
00:59:21.420 –> 00:59:22.740
Ian Howells: Yeah face fours.

417
00:59:22.800 –> 00:59:23.550
It’s coming better

418
00:59:24.630 –> 00:59:29.550
Jeff Louella: Well, when they, when they bought Boston Dynamics right and it’s like they have AI and then they have robot.

419
00:59:30.630 –> 00:59:39.690
Jeff Louella: It would. That’s where I kind of got, like, oh, but then they sold off Boston Dynamics, but they still, it’s a little creepy, because their AI stuff and putting it in those robot dogs.

420
00:59:40.080 –> 00:59:44.190
Jeff Louella: Is like things in my dreams and I get like not my dreams my nightmares.

421
00:59:44.970 –> 00:59:45.990
Jacob Stoops: Jetsons or

422
00:59:46.650 –> 00:59:51.630
Jeff Louella: One of the two self driving cars like they’re everywhere. They’re doing a lot of things and it’s. To me, it’s

423
00:59:52.560 –> 01:00:02.310
Jeff Louella: Great because it’s pushing humanity forward to an extent it’s merging us with machines. So we all become cyborgs. But I just don’t want to, like, you know, have all my brain power, run by Google right now so

424
01:00:03.210 –> 01:00:07.620
Ian Howells: I don’t know, I’m ready to be a cyborg man my hairline is garbage, my eyes are trash.

425
01:00:07.620 –> 01:00:11.220
Ian Howells: Bring bring out and cybernetics. I am. I’m here for I’m. Let’s do this.

426
01:00:12.930 –> 01:00:21.600
Jeff Louella: I am also not the singularity is one of those things where it’s it’s coming. And, you know, if it can make me live. I always wanted to be bit by a vampire.

427
01:00:22.050 –> 01:00:35.190
Jeff Louella: So that can live forever and see like where technology goes. So if I can be on a cyborg. And the same thing happens. I think another way of doing it. The Vampire part like I’m old involved. Like, I don’t want to be a vampire forever right now.

428
01:00:36.990 –> 01:00:39.240
Ian Howells: I mean like a half here in the gym first before I

429
01:00:41.640 –> 01:00:43.050
Jeff Louella: Don’t want to be the old vampire at the

430
01:00:44.040 –> 01:00:46.920
Jacob Stoops: Subconscious and then by be. Oh my god.

431
01:00:48.090 –> 01:00:48.630
Jacob Stoops: Okay.

432
01:00:49.230 –> 01:00:58.200
Jacob Stoops: So I want to do a time check. Um, let’s move into phase three, and we’re going to deep dive into affiliate sites and I’m just gonna, I’m just going to

433
01:00:58.650 –> 01:01:06.030
Jacob Stoops: Caveat this by saying this is one of those places in SEO. It’s such a broad area that

434
01:01:06.750 –> 01:01:18.300
Jacob Stoops: You should have a base in everything but I feel like the longer that this in the older that this industry gets, the more opportunities that there are to specialize in the chances of you not

435
01:01:19.200 –> 01:01:33.240
Jacob Stoops: knowing everything is is is high, Python, that’s something I have no freakin clue what it is and I’m going to say affiliate sites, we’re going to talk about it, but I have. I’ve never done it. I have no clue. Not a damn clue.

436
01:01:33.870 –> 01:01:49.890
Jacob Stoops: What I’m, what I’m doing. So I’m going to rely on you as an expert and Jeff you as an expert to guide me through what’s it like what do you need to think about if you’re in 2020 and you’re trying to run an affiliate strategy.

437
01:01:51.600 –> 01:01:53.100
Ian Howells: So I think there’s

438
01:01:54.510 –> 01:02:01.830
Ian Howells: There’s probably two two different paths to to answering. This one is for folks that are maybe

439
01:02:02.520 –> 01:02:15.840
Ian Howells: Either newer in their career or have been in SEO or digital marketing PR bit in like an agency setting where you’re in, like you mentioned, a very specialized function and then there’s folks that are kind of

440
01:02:16.980 –> 01:02:25.260
Ian Howells: I guess further in their career, for lack of a better explanation and kind of deeper in their knowledge already for the new folks.

441
01:02:26.340 –> 01:02:32.550
Ian Howells: It’s great. And I recommend it for everybody that’s working at an SEO agency in that capacity.

442
01:02:33.150 –> 01:02:36.240
Ian Howells: Because you have to think about everything right like now.

443
01:02:36.540 –> 01:02:50.160
Ian Howells: The, the horseshit with oh the client will do this and like their pricing is higher, the content that competitors. So like, that’s why they’re not making money. And, you know, on and on and on and on every excuse is gone, right, like it’s just you.

444
01:02:50.700 –> 01:02:55.770
Ian Howells: And typically WordPress right like it’s you and a content management system and a domain.

445
01:02:56.160 –> 01:03:12.120
Ian Howells: And if it flops. It’s because of you. And if it does. Well, it’s because you did good things, right. So it kind of is a bit of a put up or shut up for for folks to put themselves into which is great because that’s when you learn stuff that you didn’t know

446
01:03:12.120 –> 01:03:12.840
Ian Howells: Before

447
01:03:12.900 –> 01:03:19.620
Ian Howells: Right, you have to get better at pre selling and copywriting otherwise you’re going to get traffic and it’s not going to convert

448
01:03:19.920 –> 01:03:22.830
Ian Howells: You have to get better at keyword research and planning.

449
01:03:23.130 –> 01:03:29.880
Ian Howells: Because you’re probably a small new site. So you’ve really got to pick your battles for what you’re going to try and go do

450
01:03:30.060 –> 01:03:38.820
Ian Howells: Because you’re not going to go outrank the wire cutter or credit cards calm for you know best, small business credit cards or something like that. Right.

451
01:03:39.210 –> 01:03:53.070
Ian Howells: So it kind of top to bottom through the process forces you to get better at each piece because everything has to work or the end result is not going to happen. Right. And again,

452
01:03:53.520 –> 01:04:03.360
Ian Howells: You’re the only reason right you you are the lever on every step of that process. So I think it’s a really good thing for for folks to do

453
01:04:03.780 –> 01:04:09.270
Ian Howells: And then even just taking the like you should want to learn and get better and do new things out of it.

454
01:04:09.720 –> 01:04:18.930
Ian Howells: It makes you absurdly employable. Right. Like if you are a junior SEO in your first gig and an agency and you’re 12 to 24 months out of school, call it

455
01:04:19.650 –> 01:04:30.510
Ian Howells: building your own site and putting that on your resume, like, hey, I made this website. It ranks for, you know, a few hundred keywords and gets 1000 visits a month and makes me some money.

456
01:04:30.810 –> 01:04:39.270
Ian Howells: Your resume is immediately at the top of the pile like as somebody who was a hiring manager at a large mid cap public company.

457
01:04:40.230 –> 01:04:53.730
Ian Howells: There are like so many resumes come in when we put out a job posting will get like 300 resumes. Right. And I had to get the recruiting team like three things to look for, like, if you see resumes with any of these three things.

458
01:04:54.840 –> 01:04:59.310
Ian Howells: shortlist like those are the resumes that I want to see in one is they built their own website.

459
01:04:59.850 –> 01:05:06.060
Ian Howells: Like that just immediately gets you through the hundreds of other resumes into the front of the line.

460
01:05:06.480 –> 01:05:11.610
Ian Howells: It’s going to get you on the phone. And then if you barf all over yourself on the phone like that’s the end of the road, but

461
01:05:11.940 –> 01:05:23.370
Ian Howells: You know, if nothing else, like if you’re applying for jobs and not getting a call back as an SEO and you haven’t built your own website and put it on your resume. That’s like the biggest lever. I think you can can pull

462
01:05:24.540 –> 01:05:26.280
Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s funny because I

463
01:05:27.540 –> 01:05:33.660
Jeff Louella: I totally the same beliefs and things like that and I you started off building websites myself started

464
01:05:34.470 –> 01:05:46.380
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I was a DJ went to promote promote myself as a DJ built websites doing that I learned how to use like real audio back then to do streaming. Unfortunately, everybody had like 14 four modem at that time and if

465
01:05:47.820 –> 01:05:48.660
Jeff Louella: I was a little early, and

466
01:05:49.680 –> 01:05:50.400
Ian Howells: Just early

467
01:05:50.820 –> 01:05:58.980
Jeff Louella: Exactly. And then, so things like that when great. But actually when I when I met you and we started, you know, I started learning more about affiliates self.

468
01:05:59.400 –> 01:06:09.510
Jeff Louella: I’m trying to start up those niche affiliate sites. I think I started one called like barbecue pit man calm and I was selling, you know, talking about barbecue grills on there and

469
01:06:09.900 –> 01:06:16.200
Jeff Louella: It actually I had a couple different ones. I had one about music, because I love music realized that music wasn’t a great affiliate

470
01:06:16.590 –> 01:06:32.190
Jeff Louella: You know area because CDs. At the time, like you would get like a nickel or dime off of it while an $800 barbecue grill, you know, and if you’re using Amazon affiliates, you’re getting like 7% so it’s like a, you know, same amount a lot more money and

471
01:06:33.330 –> 01:06:45.570
Jeff Louella: You know, and then of course you get a little greedy. Sometimes when you start getting some traffic and you start getting a little more spammy to get that more traffic and then eventually, Google, you know, get you get you get on their shortlist, and then they

472
01:06:46.650 –> 01:06:56.370
Jeff Louella: Then you get banned from it and I’ve learned a lot about that too. So actually, for me, kind of making affiliate site being a little more spammy on it learned a lot more about penalties.

473
01:06:56.610 –> 01:07:05.130
Jeff Louella: And I did learn a lot about things there. And I say that, you know, when I am interviewing somebody I always say, like, hey, you make a website, even people on my team.

474
01:07:05.550 –> 01:07:13.650
Jeff Louella: That don’t have like even if you don’t build the website from scratch. But just like the art of getting traffic to your site and natural is like is important and

475
01:07:15.330 –> 01:07:23.610
Jeff Louella: Doing it to incentivize like hey I I made money off of this now gives me more the incentive to actually try to make it even better.

476
01:07:24.030 –> 01:07:30.240
Jeff Louella: And that’s kind of where I feel like affiliates are at a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of good affiliates out there. There’s a lot of bad ones, and I think

477
01:07:31.080 –> 01:07:38.010
Jeff Louella: The bad affiliates especially what I did with that barbecue site was, you know, did a lot of spinning content and things like that that I’m not proud of but

478
01:07:38.940 –> 01:07:51.030
Jeff Louella: I think in affiliate world there are the good and bad and I, IT’S KIND OF WHAT I WANT YOU KNOW WHERE MY QUESTION IS GOING TO GO. It’s, um, do you think affiliates have a bad like SEO. In general, they might have a bad name and marketing industries because SEO.

479
01:07:51.120 –> 01:08:01.620
Jeff Louella: Or spam your overall, you know, not me, of course. But other people and in the SEO world there’s affiliates and affiliates kind of get that that more of the

480
01:08:02.220 –> 01:08:17.850
Jeff Louella: Black Hat aspect of things. So I think there was a lot of affiliate like black hat networks and syndicate and things like that. So where do you feel like with affiliates like as it getting better or is it actually still a world of spam and junk out there.

481
01:08:18.390 –> 01:08:21.720
Ian Howells: So I think it’s interesting. There are

482
01:08:22.980 –> 01:08:32.940
Ian Howells: There are obviously different perspective right on affiliates. I think now within the SEO community. I don’t think affiliate has a bad reputation because like

483
01:08:33.150 –> 01:08:49.620
Ian Howells: How the hell else are you making money, right, like for people that run their own sites like that’s kind of like, unless you’re just running AdSense or display ads like. And I would argue from the display of that I see they deserve a worse reputation than

484
01:08:49.680 –> 01:08:51.030
Ian Howells: A lot of affiliate marketing.

485
01:08:52.320 –> 01:08:59.700
Ian Howells: So I think within the industry, you know, pretty widely accepted. I think you’ll have very differing opinions from

486
01:09:00.120 –> 01:09:11.250
Ian Howells: When I think back to the GSA commerce days like folks that are in house at an e commerce store will have very different opinions about affiliates based on how their network has gone right so i think

487
01:09:11.670 –> 01:09:21.930
Ian Howells: Some will basically equate if you’re an in house at an E calm place and like digital marketing is not your thing. You’re a product merchandiser or something, an e commerce store.

488
01:09:22.410 –> 01:09:35.040
Ian Howells: Your exposure to affiliate marketing is probably heavily dominated by coupon sites. Right. And in that view like through that lens. You probably view them as a parasite right because

489
01:09:35.340 –> 01:09:42.990
Ian Howells: They just rank for my store name plus coupon or coupons and all these people that I would have gotten any way.

490
01:09:43.320 –> 01:09:51.090
Ian Howells: Are now clicking through here just to get a promo code to put in. So I’m losing money on the ARV because now they’re all using the 10% coupon.

491
01:09:51.540 –> 01:10:01.200
Ian Howells: And now I’m paying a whatever five 6% commission to this, you know, parasitic affiliate site at the same time, right. So I think there’s still pockets like that where

492
01:10:01.440 –> 01:10:09.630
Ian Howells: Because a lens that affiliate marketing to view through can be very specific to certain stuff you can come away with a bad taste in your mouth.

493
01:10:10.140 –> 01:10:21.450
Ian Howells: I think the the flip side to that would be seen stuff like wire cutter getting bought by the New York Times, right, like the name in the US for news, generally speaking.

494
01:10:21.900 –> 01:10:37.140
Ian Howells: Buying an Amazon affiliate website for almost 100 million dollars i think is a a good temperature read for life okay yeah affiliates, not a joke and like large companies recognize the value and potential that’s there.

495
01:10:39.300 –> 01:10:40.740
Jeff Louella: How do you go about and

496
01:10:40.950 –> 01:10:41.250
Like

497
01:10:42.840 –> 01:10:49.470
Jeff Louella: Not going to ask what your affiliates are or think that, but how do you go apart like and just figure out how to

498
01:10:50.160 –> 01:10:54.180
Jeff Louella: Pick an affiliate that you want. So you’re going to go, you want to start a new site.

499
01:10:54.780 –> 01:11:00.030
Jeff Louella: You go through the process of doing your research and things like that. Like, what are some of those steps in that process to

500
01:11:00.450 –> 01:11:08.520
Jeff Louella: Pick an industry or find out like information about that industry and whether it’s worth to. It’s a lot of work, you know, to build up a site so

501
01:11:08.880 –> 01:11:18.150
Jeff Louella: You know you don’t want to go into something like, like I said, with music and realize they have zero like even if someone buys something, you get a dime compared to where you get

502
01:11:19.590 –> 01:11:24.960
Jeff Louella: To ask yeah yeah right where your poker sites that like when you got $100 each one. Like, that’s awesome. I wish I get $100 a

503
01:11:26.070 –> 01:11:27.600
Jeff Louella: Click the link on my website right so

504
01:11:27.840 –> 01:11:38.640
Ian Howells: So there I think to two ways. Basically the framework that I use for picking affiliate spots three I line already and backtrack and so the first way would be

505
01:11:39.210 –> 01:11:46.080
Ian Howells: An industry that I already know is high volume and high dollar right so home security being a good example. I got

506
01:11:46.470 –> 01:11:54.690
Ian Howells: Cheated On that one because I got exposure to home security when I was at Red ventures. They were. And I think still are a very large ADT dealer.

507
01:11:55.470 –> 01:12:08.250
Ian Howells: So was able to see firsthand like the amount of volume available in the space and what home security companies are willing to pay out because they’re getting you know that 3040 $50 recurring monthly

508
01:12:09.390 –> 01:12:20.910
Ian Howells: Purchase with like a 24 month contract. In some cases, right. So, like they’re dealing with real money. So bringing them a customer, it can be very lucrative for you. So what are those kind of large industries.

509
01:12:21.270 –> 01:12:29.850
Ian Howells: That are going to be around for a long time payouts are really high right those are basically where I make my long term bets like

510
01:12:29.880 –> 01:12:33.120
Ian Howells: The site is not going to do anything. And it’s first 612

511
01:12:33.150 –> 01:12:48.780
Ian Howells: Maybe even 18 months, but it’s a iron in the fire that you know I just keep going and the plan is, I’m still going to have this website five years from now, right. So stuff like home security web hosting like those big industries with high dollar payouts

512
01:12:49.710 –> 01:13:00.630
Ian Howells: The second would be pockets where I see week competition that generally speaking funnel to Amazon, right. So basically anything you can buy on the internet you can buy on Amazon.

513
01:13:01.200 –> 01:13:06.600
Ian Howells: The Commission structures there. You know what it is, the tracking is there, like, there’s not a lot of unknowns.

514
01:13:07.020 –> 01:13:18.360
Ian Howells: All you really have to be able to do is the keyword and competitive research and you’re good to go. Like I farm out all the content production I farm on a lot of the link production. So at that point, it’s just like a capital.

515
01:13:20.490 –> 01:13:27.060
Ian Howells: Application game of, like, where am I going to put funding and you know how, how big of a bet. Am I going to make on each one.

516
01:13:27.870 –> 01:13:28.320
So,

517
01:13:29.580 –> 01:13:31.680
Jacob Stoops: You said keyword research is still relevant.

518
01:13:32.340 –> 01:13:49.860
Ian Howells: I did, I would venture to say for an affiliate, it is arguably the most important thing that you can do because you have to find keywords that not only have volume but have intent and have SERPs that you can crack with whatever site, you’re actually working with alright

519
01:13:50.040 –> 01:13:51.240
Jacob Stoops: So, suck it being

520
01:13:53.070 –> 01:13:54.990
Ian Howells: That they’ve been doing that for years already there.

521
01:13:57.870 –> 01:14:05.910
Ian Howells: And then the, the only other the, the kind of third that I backtracked my two part answer to, and turn it into a three parter.

522
01:14:06.420 –> 01:14:17.940
Ian Howells: Is just if I either get approached or see an auction for a domain where the price looks right. And then that kind of sends me down the rabbit hole of looking into that industry.

523
01:14:18.210 –> 01:14:28.140
Ian Howells: Trying to get the scope of how big can this be a trust is really like my go to tool like I’m, you know, aside from when it logs me out, which it does more than

524
01:14:28.950 –> 01:14:35.490
Ian Howells: I would like, but in general, there’s probably two or three hrs tabs open in my Chrome at all times.

525
01:14:36.240 –> 01:14:42.090
Ian Howells: Because it is the fastest way to go from like two or three seed keywords to a list of probably 50 keywords.

526
01:14:42.450 –> 01:14:47.610
Ian Howells: To filtering up. Who are the domains that are kind of owning this space.

527
01:14:47.910 –> 01:14:52.890
Ian Howells: And then being able to click through right to them and say, okay, they’ve got this many referring domains. They do this much traffic.

528
01:14:53.130 –> 01:15:03.450
Ian Howells: Let me see where those links come from. Can I replicate that like that becomes like a 20 minute process of being able to size up in industry and have a general gut feeling of

529
01:15:03.810 –> 01:15:09.660
Ian Howells: I’m way out of my league and there’s no way I’m getting in here. So, like this is either going to be a multi year bet or

530
01:15:10.050 –> 01:15:24.000
Ian Howells: Oh damn, this looks like there’s something here. There’s people all over, page one that are pretty weak that I feel like you know in six or eight months, I can replicate the mountain quality of content they have and the mountain quality of links that they have. Yeah.

531
01:15:26.100 –> 01:15:35.490
Jeff Louella: So when you get your, you know, your niche and you you build a site. I am guessing most of time. It’s a WordPress get there. I mean, because it’s just so simple.

532
01:15:36.150 –> 01:15:44.070
Jeff Louella: There is a lot of, you know, we need lots of content to be able to build that right so I’m guessing. The next kind of approach is

533
01:15:44.490 –> 01:15:58.110
Jeff Louella: Getting the site structure and start building out content. Is that something you’re writing yourself or is that something you’re kind of going not fiber. But, you know, some other place to get content written and then you just the editorial notes of that.

534
01:15:58.470 –> 01:16:05.700
Ian Howells: Yep. So thankfully, now I do less than, less than less myself. One of the things I focused on in 2019

535
01:16:06.510 –> 01:16:11.940
Ian Howells: Was bringing more part time folks on to help me with portions of it, right. So, now, thankfully.

536
01:16:12.240 –> 01:16:25.170
Ian Howells: I now have a reliable part time person who knows a trance knows how to do keyword research and they can basically build content maps for me. I give them an industry and two or three competitors to look at and they can just go

537
01:16:25.650 –> 01:16:35.610
Ian Howells: And then come back with a Google Sheet template that I made filled out with what keywords and then I know what pages. Do I need to make. What are the keywords that need to funnel into them.

538
01:16:36.180 –> 01:16:46.470
Ian Howells: I basically then take those Google Sheets and pass them over to word agents word agents calm and they right now all of my new affiliate content.

539
01:16:47.250 –> 01:16:48.660
Ian Howells: And so, it all goes to them.

540
01:16:49.110 –> 01:16:59.970
Ian Howells: The last missing piece I need to fill is then the, hey, we got a Google Drive folder, full of content from word agents, I need all of this in WordPress now and I need the internal links done and blah, blah, blah.

541
01:17:00.270 –> 01:17:09.540
Ian Howells: That’s the the piece that I’m still kind of rotating through some folks trying to find somebody that I really like that. I’ll continue to work with. But you can kind of

542
01:17:10.770 –> 01:17:26.340
Ian Howells: D scale each individual portion of the process and have different folks fulfill each part, right, because I am not going to sit here and pick out 800 words about, you know, this camping tent.

543
01:17:26.430 –> 01:17:37.710
Ian Howells: That and why it’s great. Right. Like there’s people who write for a living, that’s what they want to do. They do that from wherever the hell they want. That’s great word agents just takes care of the content for me now.

544
01:17:38.430 –> 01:17:40.590
Jeff Louella: You just need Hamlet write you a script and play.

545
01:17:43.140 –> 01:17:43.500
Ian Howells: Button.

546
01:17:45.690 –> 01:17:51.570
Jacob Stoops: between him and jr folks to build a search engine or machine learning how to auto produce the content, I bet.

547
01:17:54.510 –> 01:18:04.530
Jacob Stoops: So Ian on definitely want to thank you for, for your time. We always wrap up, or at least we tried to sometimes we forget and you’ve kind of alluded to, to it.

548
01:18:05.070 –> 01:18:12.120
Jacob Stoops: To building websites, being a good thing. So I’m going to ask you to maybe provide a different piece of advice, but we always end by saying

549
01:18:13.020 –> 01:18:24.150
Jacob Stoops: If you were a new SEO you’re you’re fresh out of college or you’re thinking about getting into the industry literally today this moment, what would be the advice that you would give to that person.

550
01:18:26.970 –> 01:18:33.510
Ian Howells: The, the biggie is building your own site. But you said that’s not that’s not an answer. I can do is I’ll take that off the table. I would

551
01:18:34.560 –> 01:18:42.990
Ian Howells: If I was still in college. I would look to get an internship at an agency. And if I had just graduated, I would do.

552
01:18:43.920 –> 01:18:56.760
Ian Howells: Everything that I could to make myself marketable on paper to get an interview at an agency and get a junior level role I hate on the agency model a lot. And there’s a bunch there that I don’t like.

553
01:18:57.240 –> 01:19:13.020
Ian Howells: But it is the fastest way to get in somewhere see a bunch of stuff happen and learn, kind of as you as you do. And I think starting out your career as a junior person in house somewhere.

554
01:19:13.830 –> 01:19:22.260
Ian Howells: I think kind of insulate to a little too much into the specific tech stack and the specific goals and like how monetization happens

555
01:19:22.560 –> 01:19:26.460
Ian Howells: You get a little bit pigeonholed into one way of doing things.

556
01:19:26.730 –> 01:19:35.460
Ian Howells: Whereas generally at an agency, you’re going to get exposed to multiple different CMS and platforms, you’re going to get exposed to different kinds of people. And if you’re going to be successful.

557
01:19:35.730 –> 01:19:47.250
Ian Howells: Have to figure out how to talk to clients and other stakeholders to actually get work done. There are a lot of skills that you can hone working in an agency, and I think it’s a good

558
01:19:47.700 –> 01:19:54.990
Ian Howells: Spot for somebody to spend their first call a two to three years in the digital marketing world doing that work.

559
01:19:55.830 –> 01:20:06.960
Jacob Stoops: Speaking of agencies Jeff and I worked for one search discovery. So if you are one of those people looking and coming out of college we do college hires every single year.

560
01:20:07.440 –> 01:20:20.730
Jacob Stoops: And in Ian’s right it is really great experience. You get to work across multiple verticals with a lot of different people that know a lot of different things, especially at search discovery. So I don’t want this podcast to be just like a

561
01:20:21.570 –> 01:20:25.650
Jacob Stoops: Major plug, but come work with us. We’d love to work with you and

562
01:20:25.710 –> 01:20:26.490
Jeff Louella: Anyways, rent.

563
01:20:26.970 –> 01:20:27.270
Right.

564
01:20:28.530 –> 01:20:28.920
Ian Howells: Yes.

565
01:20:28.950 –> 01:20:33.240
Jacob Stoops: Yes, let’s yell about things in person. So he and where can people find you.

566
01:20:35.100 –> 01:20:50.310
Ian Howells: So on Twitter, just at Ian Howells Real original and creative with the Twitter handle there otherwise I don’t like I’m the worst solo SEO in the world. Like, I don’t have

567
01:20:50.880 –> 01:21:04.560
Ian Howells: A website that like advertises my service. I think I NH media com is literally a logo lucky pixel calm is the BBA that I do my consulting on it’s again a logo on on the homepage. And that’s it. There’s not even a contact form.

568
01:21:05.220 –> 01:21:18.720
Ian Howells: And so really Twitter and inside Traffic Think Tank are like the two places that I hang out and network with with people in the industry. So Traffic Think Tank calm and Twitter at Ian’s house would be the best bet.

569
01:21:19.680 –> 01:21:32.610
Jacob Stoops: Awesome. I’ll say it again if you want to go to one of the best conferences about building traffic that is going on right now. Go to Traffic Think Tank calm, forward slash live

570
01:21:33.150 –> 01:21:46.320
Jacob Stoops: The event, again, is in Miami. So nice warm sunny place that most people want to go and it is on May 16 Ian I don’t know how many like if you guys restrict the number of tickets. But how many, how many tickets are left left at this moment.

571
01:21:46.440 –> 01:21:58.170
Ian Howells: We are, I think, right now we’re 64 65% sold. So there’s like 120 spots left, something like that. Cool.

572
01:21:58.530 –> 01:22:04.740
Jacob Stoops: Alright, so you hear that there are spots left this episode is going to release on on the following Monday we record ahead so

573
01:22:05.820 –> 01:22:10.980
Jacob Stoops: I believe that they might there might still be some spots left by that time, that’s only a couple of days from now. But, uh,

574
01:22:11.250 –> 01:22:26.880
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, go and go and buy a ticket if you want to meet some really, really great people and attend to, really, really awesome about. But otherwise, em, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your time. Really appreciate the candor candor candor. Yeah.

575
01:22:27.930 –> 01:22:28.740
Jacob Stoops: That’s awkward. That’s

576
01:22:29.820 –> 01:22:31.020
Jeff Louella: The Rings Kelly appreciate

577
01:22:32.520 –> 01:22:33.390
Jacob Stoops: It was a great discussion.

578
01:22:33.810 –> 01:22:37.740
Ian Howells: Now awesome I fun. Thanks for having me guess. Awesome. Thank you.running 

#35: Sarah McDowell

Episode Summary

In this episode, we talk with Sarah McDowell, SEO Specialist at LikeMind Media and Co-Host of the SEO SAS Podcast, a podcast that delves into individual SEO issues each week.

We discuss how she went from a background in dance to a digital marketing role focused on link building and then eventually into a career in SEO, her experiences going between agencies and in-house roles, founding her own business and eventually shutting it down, the challenges and psychology of getting stuff implemented, and more.

In addition, we cover and share our perspective on a recent SEO “kerfuffle” around the subject of hiring for SEO and interview questions which stems from a tweet put out by Bill Hartzer which caused a few side-eyes in the industry (here, here, here).

And to round out this episode, we dive deep into what went into founding her podcast, and we share our experiences on what it’s like to run an SEO podcast, as well as some of the behind-the-scenes work that goes into making a podcast come to life.

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:01.199 –> 00:00:11.550
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops and we are here for another episode of the Page 2 Podcast. Hi, Jeff. How’s it going?

2
00:00:12.000 –> 00:00:13.500
Jeff Louella: It’s going well. How you doing?

3
00:00:13.799 –> 00:00:16.770
Jacob Stoops: That’s, I feel like our bit, Jeff. You’ve got it. You’ve got to come like…

4
00:00:16.830 –> 00:00:17.730
Jeff Louella: I gotta come stronger.

5
00:00:18.029 –> 00:00:22.440
Jacob Stoops: Well no, you come the same way every week and I feel like you got

6
00:00:22.440 –> 00:00:22.680
Jacob Stoops: To like keep

7
00:00:22.980 –> 00:00:32.670
Jacob Stoops: me on my toes in terms of I’m not very good at figuring out a great way to introduce it’s you. Maybe I’ll just do the introductions and you introduce me

8
00:00:33.120 –> 00:00:38.520
Jeff Louella: We’ve got this. Come up with my own recorded drop and it’ll be like a mega like coming soon.

9
00:00:41.010 –> 00:00:56.430
Jacob Stoops: And we also have as a guest from across the pond Sarah McDowell, SEO specialist at LikeMind Media, and you might better know her as the host of the SEO SAS podcast. How’s it going, Sarah.

10
00:00:57.420 –> 00:01:02.910
Sarah McDowell: I am thrilled to be on your podcast. So things are going really well for me. How about you guys?

11
00:01:03.750 –> 00:01:18.390
Jacob Stoops: Pretty good, pretty good. It’s getting as my kids are reminded we’re about two weeks away from from Christmas and Christmas time and holiday time in agency world is. It’s crazy, man. It’s, it’s been crazy

12
00:01:18.960 –> 00:01:21.210
Jeff Louella: It’s crazy that it just dies. Yeah.

13
00:01:21.930 –> 00:01:23.910
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. And everybody goes on PTO

14
00:01:24.840 –> 00:01:39.180
Sarah McDowell: See, for me it squeeze in the same amount of work that needs to be done, but in less time. So obviously, instead of I’ve only really got two and a half weeks to still do all the jobs that I need to do. So it’s a bit of a headache, but yeah.

15
00:01:39.780 –> 00:01:45.750
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, it’s the life we live, it’s nice to have another podcaster on with us.

16
00:01:46.770 –> 00:01:49.530
Sarah McDowell: Likewise, it’s nice to talk to a fellow podcaster,

17
00:01:50.550 –> 00:01:51.060
Sarah McDowell: Is

18
00:01:51.840 –> 00:01:56.370
Jacob Stoops: Before we jumped on that this was the first podcast where you’ve actually been a guest.

19
00:01:56.730 –> 00:02:01.800
Sarah McDowell: Yes, so please be kind and please be gentle with me. Haha.

20
00:02:02.520 –> 00:02:05.220
Jacob Stoops: That’s what the that’s what the last people said, I’m wondering if we’re

21
00:02:06.600 –> 00:02:07.980
A reputation. That’s funny.

22
00:02:10.650 –> 00:02:20.370
Sarah McDowell: Cuz I’ve been listening to your podcasts and yeah, I’ve just got em. It’s a good one. So one night me as a guest. I want to do well. So, yes, but

23
00:02:20.700 –> 00:02:31.590
Sarah McDowell: It’s my first time and but after today we have been invited to be on another one. So I think so and but yeah it’s weird to not have control of the podcast, I’m not gonna lie.

24
00:02:33.150 –> 00:02:39.540
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, if you’re if you’re a can. And I’m not saying you’re a control freak. But if you are a control freak. This is probably really difficult.

25
00:02:42.660 –> 00:02:45.630
Sarah McDowell: Patient comfortable now. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.

26
00:02:45.870 –> 00:03:02.010
Jacob Stoops: So I especially with with your podcast. Obviously, I, I feel like the the way that we booked guests has been very, very organic in terms of like

27
00:03:02.910 –> 00:03:16.980
Jacob Stoops: There are people that are known. I feel like commodities and have been for some time in the industry and, and when I sat down, about a year ago and tried to figure out, okay, like what do I want to do with the podcast, who do I want on

28
00:03:18.420 –> 00:03:26.370
Jacob Stoops: In even this year there are definitely names that I feel like they come up and all the conferences like the you, you know, you can bet you could almost like

29
00:03:26.970 –> 00:03:36.870
Jacob Stoops: Put mug shots or whatever, whatever. And but one of the other things that has happened that I’ve noticed and why I say it’s very organic and not really

30
00:03:37.350 –> 00:03:51.030
Jacob Stoops: I don’t really think the way that we put guests is stale is if you’re if you’re following SEO on the on the Twitter. I feel like especially recently there been a lot of newer people that have come across my

31
00:03:51.810 –> 00:03:59.400
Jacob Stoops: Feed that I have found very interesting and when I find that to be the case. I say, I think I want to talk to them.

32
00:04:00.120 –> 00:04:07.200
Jacob Stoops: And you happen to be to be one of those people that I would say is a little bit and I don’t know how long you’ve been doing this. We’ll get into

33
00:04:07.560 –> 00:04:20.010
Jacob Stoops: Into that. But as far as it relates to me, noticing your presence on Twitter. Um, I would say that’s been more more recent and especially because you’re a fellow podcaster, I was like, I really think it would be great.

34
00:04:20.670 –> 00:04:29.400
Jacob Stoops: TO HAVE YOU ON so that’s that’s why you’re here and you were gracious enough to say yes and to to come on and I think we’re really interested to hear your story.

35
00:04:30.570 –> 00:04:44.490
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so, um, how do I start. That’s the question. And so, I mean, I, I sort of fell into SEO to be to be completely honest, so I sorry

36
00:04:45.000 –> 00:04:46.050
Jacob Stoops: Yes. Does everybody

37
00:04:46.830 –> 00:04:55.830
Sarah McDowell: Well, actually, I got a degree and dancing and realized that it was far too competitive and the best. I was better at African

38
00:04:56.250 –> 00:05:00.150
Sarah McDowell: And then any of the principal and then I couldn’t make a living. So I was like, right, what can I do

39
00:05:00.510 –> 00:05:19.740
Sarah McDowell: And I basically applied for a reception role as an SEO company that had been filled but they wanted to grow their link building team. So that’s where I started. And that was 2012, I believe. And so how many years ago. Is that, is that my six or seven. I’m not very good with math.

40
00:05:23.850 –> 00:05:33.660
Sarah McDowell: And so, so yes and i i was working in that agency for a good few years and I learned everything on the job. So I started from the bottom sort of link building

41
00:05:34.110 –> 00:05:43.800
Sarah McDowell: And and then I did content and content outreach and I just was there for about four years and I grew in the company sort of thing.

42
00:05:44.220 –> 00:05:57.840
Sarah McDowell: And then after been there for about four years. I then went to work in house because I was like, Okay, so I’ve got agency. I want to know what it’s like to work in house and how different that is obviously with agency, you’ve got the sort of

43
00:05:59.040 –> 00:06:08.730
Sarah McDowell: Different companies that you’re working for different industries different challenges. So I was like, Okay. Wonder if it’s less of a headache. If it’s just internal. And so, yes. So I did that for a bit.

44
00:06:09.600 –> 00:06:16.740
Sarah McDowell: And then I did that for a couple of companies and then I finally so I did have my own

45
00:06:17.280 –> 00:06:25.440
Sarah McDowell: Sort of marketing digital marketing agency for a bit and I got lonely. To be completely honest and and pull my boss.

46
00:06:25.800 –> 00:06:34.830
Sarah McDowell: I sort of knew like he was a friend and he was like, Oh, why don’t you just join like mind media and which is where I work. Now, and and he bought me in so

47
00:06:35.730 –> 00:06:46.020
Sarah McDowell: Whenever we hire someone he wants to hire someone that has a specialism in some sort. So obviously I came in with my SEO and and I sort of

48
00:06:47.430 –> 00:07:01.980
Sarah McDowell: Went with him, like all I’ve got an idea to do a podcast and i mean i don’t know if I’m like jumping ahead a bit ahead of myself better. And can I go in and talk about how the podcast came about is that, does that make sense. Let’s

49
00:07:02.040 –> 00:07:03.180
Jacob Stoops: Let’s leave that to the

50
00:07:03.240 –> 00:07:04.020
To the end because I

51
00:07:05.220 –> 00:07:18.330
Jacob Stoops: Questions for you and I definitely want to deep dive on the on the podcast, towards the end of the episode. So let’s let’s let’s wait on that one will get back to it and let’s talk about you outside of the podcast.

52
00:07:19.230 –> 00:07:23.130
Sarah McDowell: Okay well me as an individual in the SEO world.

53
00:07:24.660 –> 00:07:36.300
Sarah McDowell: Okay, well, yes. So I basically am so like I said, I fell into and I just love it because I mean this is the cliche, but we all know that Google is changing.

54
00:07:37.440 –> 00:07:47.760
Sarah McDowell: Like what worked 510 years ago. Doesn’t work now and i i can get quite bored as a person. I’m a bit flaky and friends reference there.

55
00:07:48.060 –> 00:07:56.820
Sarah McDowell: And so that so SEO kind of suits me because it’s always changing and you’ve got to sort of be ahead of the game, haven’t you, you’ve always got to

56
00:07:57.720 –> 00:08:07.080
Sarah McDowell: Be reading what’s what’s what’s going to industry events and stuff and and day to day activities. Wow, it’s like

57
00:08:07.830 –> 00:08:14.730
Sarah McDowell: Every day. So how I sort of work with my clients. So how clients come on board is like, Oh, I’ve got an issue with something

58
00:08:15.060 –> 00:08:28.320
Sarah McDowell: And they reach out and then they say, well, what, why is this. Can you help me. So then it’s finding what the reasons why basically behind if I if I’m making sense. And so I like to sort of diagnostic

59
00:08:28.740 –> 00:08:35.340
Sarah McDowell: And put in my sort of investigators hat on and also just trying stuff and

60
00:08:36.060 –> 00:08:45.270
Sarah McDowell: Like tried and tried and things on a client’s website and seeing if it works. If it doesn’t work, then we always transparent and say why we’ll try something new.

61
00:08:46.260 –> 00:08:58.800
Sarah McDowell: But at the same time, it’s great when you try something and it does work and they get an increase in traffic or they get an increase in rankings or the type of traffic is better for conversion sort of thing.

62
00:09:00.720 –> 00:09:11.850
Jacob Stoops: So I have to ask, you’ve been in what I call agency world three times, but you also dabbled in house which which do you like better, and why

63
00:09:12.960 –> 00:09:23.250
Sarah McDowell: Oh right, I’m going to say agency, just because and with agency, you get to work with lots of different industries.

64
00:09:23.640 –> 00:09:36.420
Sarah McDowell: And with different industries comes like different sort of challenges and problems. And so when I was working in house. Yes, you get really good and you can nation and industry.

65
00:09:37.020 –> 00:09:48.630
Sarah McDowell: However, and so when I was working for in house. It was for assistance firm and however I prefer more agency, because it’s more varied and you get to try new things out.

66
00:09:49.110 –> 00:10:05.250
Sarah McDowell: And and especially when it comes to SEO and things that I can dabble and try as agency. Where is if I’m just stuck in house working on one service, for example, and I don’t get to try new things as much

67
00:10:06.780 –> 00:10:12.060
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I feel sometimes. So I’ve always worked in agencies and never worked in house and

68
00:10:13.170 –> 00:10:16.710
Jeff Louella: Sometimes I do, I feel like I hit a limit on the agency side where

69
00:10:18.330 –> 00:10:23.340
Jeff Louella: You know, I’m giving recommendations to my client who either has a development team or has hired a separate development team.

70
00:10:23.760 –> 00:10:33.390
Jeff Louella: And sometimes they have different priorities right so now i don’t i’m always the outside person looking in. And a lot of my companies that I’m working for where I feel like if I went in house.

71
00:10:33.690 –> 00:10:45.180
Jeff Louella: I could be in there badgering them every day to get installed. But then once it’s implemented, you’re right. I think after a while you just like after working on the same site. And I think it’s why I’ve always stayed at agencies because

72
00:10:45.870 –> 00:10:49.620
Jeff Louella: Like I have a team and I can do a lot of in house people you’re one person.

73
00:10:50.250 –> 00:11:02.970
Jeff Louella: And you know you have a team we we actually get to definitely work on different things, all the times and and clients really like to mess up their sites, a lot and and we’re there to that we’re always there to be able to help and I feel like I get a lot more

74
00:11:04.170 –> 00:11:06.930
Jeff Louella: I get exposed to a lot more

75
00:11:08.130 –> 00:11:14.880
Jeff Louella: Being at the agency level, but sometimes I don’t feel like I get as deep as I want to get where you could probably get in house but

76
00:11:15.150 –> 00:11:15.600
I think yes.

77
00:11:17.070 –> 00:11:25.380
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, that’s a really good point, actually. So obviously, if you are in house. Then you’ve got sort of one focus and you can spend more time.

78
00:11:25.860 –> 00:11:34.680
Sarah McDowell: Because the one thing with agency and is you’ve only got a finite amount of time and we could all do with one more day and also it’s sort of juggling

79
00:11:35.130 –> 00:11:44.610
Sarah McDowell: What the client sees as a priority and what really is a priority. And so I have conversations with clients quite a lot of time where they deemed something more important.

80
00:11:44.910 –> 00:11:54.390
Sarah McDowell: Than something else that I want to work on and it’s the challenge of sort of proving okay what you want to work on is important, however, and

81
00:11:55.050 –> 00:12:03.120
Sarah McDowell: That, for example, when when when the medic update that was quite a while ago now as first day that I could think of the top of my head.

82
00:12:03.450 –> 00:12:16.980
Sarah McDowell: And there was quite, quite a few of my clients, where they needed to, especially the clients that we’re working in like given many advice medical advice there was work to be done there on sort of

83
00:12:17.520 –> 00:12:27.240
Sarah McDowell: On their about page and on the team page and getting the expertise across. And that’s what I wanted to work on, whereas they wanted to work on other things like the fluffier stuff that looks good to you. I mean, and

84
00:12:27.540 –> 00:12:36.060
Sarah McDowell: That’s the challenge really isn’t it is managing clients expectations and getting the point across that this is what needs to be worked on. And this is why

85
00:12:37.200 –> 00:12:47.400
Jacob Stoops: I always feel like, Well, I’ve said it, like many, many, many times. The hardest part of SEO is implementation, and I believe that that occurs.

86
00:12:47.820 –> 00:12:50.520
Jacob Stoops: Whether you’re in house or whether you’re at an agency.

87
00:12:51.150 –> 00:12:57.960
Jacob Stoops: I think the benefit of going in house and like sometimes when I’m at an agency, because I’ve jumped back and forth a couple of times you’re

88
00:12:58.320 –> 00:13:10.560
Jacob Stoops: You’re sometimes always yearning, a little bit for like the grass is grass is greener and sometimes when I’m when you know when you’re getting bombarded with a bunch of different industries, a bunch of different clients sometimes crazy work hours.

89
00:13:10.860 –> 00:13:17.520
Jacob Stoops: You’re always like, Man, I wish I could just for once, focus on one site for a finite amount of time and

90
00:13:17.520 –> 00:13:17.910
Sarah McDowell: See it

91
00:13:18.000 –> 00:13:29.070
Jacob Stoops: Through but then when I get there, I realized just like Jeff said, I’m the only one of my team. And at a certain point, like, especially if you’re having difficulty getting things implemented it gets quite

92
00:13:29.640 –> 00:13:38.670
Jacob Stoops: Boring. So I’ve found over the years that I just for in again in house SEOs are awesome. But I found for me.

93
00:13:40.050 –> 00:13:44.880
Jacob Stoops: The agency side tends to work a little bit more. But what I was getting to

94
00:13:45.600 –> 00:13:59.610
Jacob Stoops: Is the idea that sometimes implementation is really hard and it becomes an exercise in psychology. And what I mean by that is, how can I convince this third party to do

95
00:14:00.030 –> 00:14:10.200
Jacob Stoops: What they what I need them to do in order to make myself my agency their site successful and sometimes you really have to think about

96
00:14:10.650 –> 00:14:20.340
Jacob Stoops: Psychologically, what can you say to them to make them or what can you show them to make them want to change their minds which can be difficult because people don’t like

97
00:14:20.820 –> 00:14:30.990
Jacob Stoops: Change and there’s often egos involved in different priorities and that’s part of the fun, especially on in quote unquote agency world being kind of on the outside.

98
00:14:31.590 –> 00:14:39.360
Jacob Stoops: Looking in making the case to get your stuff implemented because you do have a short time window. It’s one of the greatest challenges we all face.

99
00:14:40.350 –> 00:14:54.240
Sarah McDowell: And it does at a date. Now, if you guys and what strictly Strictly Come Dancing or, you know, the UK strictly and but there was a judge on that she’s not anymore but darcey bussell so the

100
00:14:54.750 –> 00:15:09.240
Sarah McDowell: ballerina and this will be relevant, I promise. And when she was given feedback to dances. She’d always give the darcey bussell shit sandwich. And were you sort of

101
00:15:10.530 –> 00:15:21.540
Sarah McDowell: So you start with the positive, then you go with the negative and then you go with the positive again and I sort of. That’s how I sort of approach clients and stuff. So say for example, a client has just

102
00:15:22.830 –> 00:15:30.720
Sarah McDowell: They’ve got a new website and then they’ve come to you to SEO it. Yeah. And in that, and that’s what they actually say, oh, can you just SEO. This sign is that okay

103
00:15:31.560 –> 00:15:40.800
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, I’ve got issues with you to say that, but hey, I will will get over that. But yeah, but it’s sort of say, and you realize that the site isn’t

104
00:15:41.160 –> 00:15:52.650
Sarah McDowell: technically sound for SEO and that’s where the shit sandwich comes in. So I always try and find a positive to say. So if I can find something about user experience or page speed, for example, I’ll start with that.

105
00:15:52.950 –> 00:16:05.910
Sarah McDowell: And then I’ll say. However, this is not so good because this is the reasons why. And this is the opportunities and and yeah and then now end on a high as well. So there you go. The Darcy associate sandwich.

106
00:16:06.330 –> 00:16:10.350
Jacob Stoops: So I actually know more about dancing, then you might think

107
00:16:10.410 –> 00:16:23.820
Jacob Stoops: Said, I’m not a drama terrible dancer. My wife grew up as a as a dancer and why that’s relevant. Now it’s because you mentioned like one of the only dance shows that she probably doesn’t watch

108
00:16:24.570 –> 00:16:29.190
Jacob Stoops: But she watches literally every dance reality TV show. Well,

109
00:16:29.970 –> 00:16:38.910
Jacob Stoops: I’m sure that there are more than this, but like we have watched dancing with the stars like every season since we’ve been together, which is going on like over a decade.

110
00:16:39.330 –> 00:16:46.860
Jacob Stoops: Now, and also. So You Think You Can Dance. I’m pretty well versed in dance reality shows and I’m actually surprised that I did not know that one.

111
00:16:47.700 –> 00:16:57.210
Sarah McDowell: Straight king. I mean, yes, I mean it’s the UK one. I mean, it’s coming to an end. Now, but that’s been on everyone’s wow that’s what me and my girlfriend watch

112
00:16:58.980 –> 00:17:00.390
Jacob Stoops: favorite type of dance.

113
00:17:02.100 –> 00:17:02.370
Sarah McDowell: Oh,

114
00:17:03.720 –> 00:17:18.390
Sarah McDowell: Well, I’ve not dancing, very long time. But when I was at university studying it. I preferred African peoples dance. So my course was dancing culture. So you got to do five different principles.

115
00:17:19.590 –> 00:17:36.600
Sarah McDowell: So we did African Khattak which is a Indian style of dancing ballet. I was rubbish at ballet, because it was just too strict can get on that and contemporary and cartography so African peoples dance was the form that I enjoyed the most

116
00:17:37.950 –> 00:17:53.850
Jacob Stoops: So I would say I think contemporary is the one that always in and I, my wife is a major crier. And I’m like, I would say I’m a minor crier like I get. I get a little bit emotional and I feel like contemporary always kind of brings that brings that out.

117
00:17:55.080 –> 00:18:01.290
Jacob Stoops: But then I would say in terms of like just really cool to watch. Um, it’s called POP POP locking

118
00:18:03.840 –> 00:18:05.340
Jacob Stoops: I can’t remember the name

119
00:18:06.420 –> 00:18:08.310
Sarah McDowell: But it took a night sweet so

120
00:18:09.480 –> 00:18:15.750
Jacob Stoops: Walking like quick robotic movements. I always find that fascinating.

121
00:18:16.830 –> 00:18:17.430
To watch

122
00:18:20.010 –> 00:18:21.480
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, can you pop luck.

123
00:18:22.500 –> 00:18:24.690
Jeff Louella: I could do the robot like it’s like

124
00:18:25.830 –> 00:18:26.220
Sarah McDowell: Me you

125
00:18:27.600 –> 00:18:32.940
Jeff Louella: Know, I am not a good dancer whatsoever. I do like to dance to embarrass my kids.

126
00:18:33.450 –> 00:18:33.900
What’s a good

127
00:18:37.590 –> 00:18:37.830
Sarah McDowell: One.

128
00:18:37.980 –> 00:18:45.570
Jacob Stoops: Fact in the, the only other dance thing that I’m that I’m going to talk about if you search YouTube for Jake and Gina wedding dance.

129
00:18:47.340 –> 00:18:51.450
Jacob Stoops: I’m all over that we actually did a choreographed dance at our wedding with

130
00:18:52.680 –> 00:18:56.490
Jacob Stoops: Something like 18 total bridesmaids and groomsmen

131
00:18:57.270 –> 00:18:59.820
Jacob Stoops: flippin oh yeah it was it was crazy.

132
00:19:00.330 –> 00:19:02.760
Sarah McDowell: I’ll be checking that out straight after this podcast.

133
00:19:03.780 –> 00:19:04.890
Jeff Louella: Check it out right now while we’re on it.

134
00:19:07.920 –> 00:19:09.480
Sarah McDowell: Multitasking is fine.

135
00:19:13.410 –> 00:19:14.580
Jacob Stoops: Fun. Cool.

136
00:19:20.760 –> 00:19:21.930
Jacob Stoops: Awesome, man.

137
00:19:23.010 –> 00:19:25.020
Jeff Louella: No, I don’t know much about dancing, but

138
00:19:28.320 –> 00:19:29.010
Jeff Louella: No, I mean, I

139
00:19:30.300 –> 00:19:35.670
Jeff Louella: I’m kind of been going through some of these new things and wanted to think we should jump into one of those or

140
00:19:35.850 –> 00:19:47.130
Jacob Stoops: Hold on, I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask about link building and what it’s like, because we’ve had. I feel like a lot of the people that we have on tend to lean technical

141
00:19:48.660 –> 00:19:54.900
Jacob Stoops: More so than more so than anything. And we’ve had a few that have come on from the content and link building

142
00:19:55.350 –> 00:20:05.430
Jacob Stoops: Side of the house. And as somebody that’s been doing that for a long time. I guess I would ask you, Sarah, what’s, what is that like, and how do you feel like that has shaped your

143
00:20:05.940 –> 00:20:22.890
Jacob Stoops: Perspective on the available, I would say the available options to you as an SEO because I feel like there are some people that just don’t do link building because they either think it’s bad or risky or just not something they’re comfortable doing so, like, how is

144
00:20:22.890 –> 00:20:23.400
Jeff Louella: None of them.

145
00:20:24.870 –> 00:20:36.570
Sarah McDowell: Oh really, well, I mean, so obviously when I, when I first got into SEO and I was doing link building. I am going to put my hands up and say that I did.

146
00:20:36.930 –> 00:20:41.310
Sarah McDowell: And I mean I don’t do it anymore. But I did tend to do more with the

147
00:20:41.790 –> 00:20:55.500
Sarah McDowell: The bad, sort of, well, not the bad but like them, you know, the more spammy ways of lie on a forum and you get like a link and somehow or you just go on that directories and and you know like back in the day, sort of,

148
00:20:56.010 –> 00:21:07.110
Sarah McDowell: link building that worked. Where is now. And Google has sort of Google is prioritizing sort of quality and value of the link and relevancy as well.

149
00:21:07.560 –> 00:21:19.020
Sarah McDowell: And so I have found so obviously because of that link building nowadays. It takes a lot more time and a lot more effort needs to

150
00:21:19.530 –> 00:21:30.630
Sarah McDowell: Go into it, but you do get rewarded and link links are always going to be the bread and butter, because that’s you hear that a lot of data that or you don’t need to link build anymore.

151
00:21:31.170 –> 00:21:37.440
Sarah McDowell: That’s not SEO. You don’t need to. But you still do, it’s still going to be one of those fundamentals, it’s still going to be one of the things that Google looks at

152
00:21:37.890 –> 00:21:44.610
Sarah McDowell: And and there’s different ways that you can go about link building. And so, for example,

153
00:21:45.420 –> 00:21:57.630
Sarah McDowell: One way that I will always do is I always do competitive research at first. So using tools to find out where where competitors have got links and seeing where I can

154
00:21:58.320 –> 00:22:12.210
Sarah McDowell: My right like opportunities for my clients. And I also think of content. So obviously, and creating high value content that shareable and it’s not just like a boring.

155
00:22:13.740 –> 00:22:30.540
Sarah McDowell: Boring Stuff, but things like content that’s actually going to make someone stop and read and think, Okay, this is going to help me so I don’t know you doing original research or doing something that that’s emotional. So whether it’s funny. If it’s and makes you cry sort of thing.

156
00:22:31.620 –> 00:22:45.780
Sarah McDowell: And so obviously when you’ve put your time aside to put together this content. It’s then reaching out and to then get people to link to it. Also, there’s another way. So say you’re doing an expert piece and you could invite

157
00:22:46.650 –> 00:22:57.240
Sarah McDowell: Seven experts in your industry and to contribute to a piece you then outreach to them and let them know because they’ll link back to you sort of thing. And I mean, I do think

158
00:22:57.750 –> 00:23:07.380
Sarah McDowell: There is a tendency that some companies will think, oh, if I make content that is really valuable and really good links will just come to me.

159
00:23:07.800 –> 00:23:15.750
Sarah McDowell: Where is is as idealistic as that is, you do need some work. And you do need to put it in front of people and tell people about it.

160
00:23:16.140 –> 00:23:28.830
Sarah McDowell: And but yeah so but you could also do something that’s a bit PR and so Brighton SEO and there was a talk by Oliver Brett who works at Screaming Frog.

161
00:23:29.220 –> 00:23:40.050
Sarah McDowell: And and he was like showing how you can sort of use fake news. Now I know fake news sort of gets a bit of a bad rap. But there is times where you can

162
00:23:40.380 –> 00:23:52.260
Sarah McDowell: Buy fake news as. Okay. So, for example, and like, I don’t know. And there was a football game and championship game or something and

163
00:23:53.160 –> 00:24:05.850
Sarah McDowell: And it was a it was England vs FRANCE, IT WAS THIS T shirt that would have the England flag. But then when you’re around people from France In France supporters, it would turn into a French flag.

164
00:24:06.210 –> 00:24:11.550
Sarah McDowell: And they put this product on the website, obviously it wasn’t a real product. It was just something fun.

165
00:24:11.940 –> 00:24:27.450
Sarah McDowell: And and yeah they got that into the news and people wanted to link build to it and another good example that I’ve seen. And so, Carrie Rose, who heads up an agency link building agency and who has been a

166
00:24:28.410 –> 00:24:39.750
Sarah McDowell: guest on our show. And so there’s game in the UK and they came up together they came up with a Christmas, Christmas dinner so is Christmas dinner.

167
00:24:40.080 –> 00:24:50.490
Sarah McDowell: All in a can, for gamers and and then I optimize the site for that and did a vegan and veggie virgin version and then reached out to

168
00:24:51.450 –> 00:25:04.980
Sarah McDowell: The PR and newspapers and stuff like that and like the genome or large Bible and again they so I don’t know, I feel like I’m blabbing but I don’t know if that’s given some insight that yeah

169
00:25:05.340 –> 00:25:24.210
Jacob Stoops: I think the key is in today’s world, like the the easy stuff. It just doesn’t work. It’s the stuff that you had that it’s hard and link building shouldn’t be hard in in any links that you’re building should be hard one. And you should have to be creative and I think

170
00:25:25.470 –> 00:25:42.360
Jacob Stoops: Those tend to be the ones that at least Google says that they value, more so than the ones that are a little bit more artificial in spammy. But one thing I wanted to say is when people talk about link building a lot of folks really think about it from an external

171
00:25:43.380 –> 00:25:54.660
Jacob Stoops: Standpoint, in terms of third party site linking to your website. And when I I think about link building. I think one of the most underrated aspects of link building is internal links.

172
00:25:54.870 –> 00:25:55.680
Sarah McDowell: Yes.

173
00:25:55.770 –> 00:25:56.910
Jacob Stoops: Or no link building right

174
00:25:57.270 –> 00:25:57.720
Sarah McDowell: A lot of

175
00:25:58.080 –> 00:26:10.770
Jacob Stoops: I’m dealing with a situation right now where we’ve got on one of my clients. We went from not having a lot of pages that talked about their product to over the course of this year, building those out.

176
00:26:11.550 –> 00:26:24.600
Jacob Stoops: The problem exist is exists is that they talk about their product on their on their blog quite a lot, but because these product pages are so new, they don’t have a lot of links within the site.

177
00:26:25.380 –> 00:26:25.650
Jeff Louella: Yes.

178
00:26:26.310 –> 00:26:28.230
Jeff Louella: Okay, let’s take this these

179
00:26:28.260 –> 00:26:37.950
Jacob Stoops: thousand or so blog pages because you’re not putting these product links in your navigation yet so they’re not site wide. Well, let’s increase the importance by

180
00:26:38.280 –> 00:26:48.120
Jacob Stoops: Looking at any time you’re mentioning the product in your blog post, but it’s not linked and you can pretty easily use screening frogs not

181
00:26:48.450 –> 00:26:50.790
Sarah McDowell: Interaction search feature to go and look

182
00:26:50.790 –> 00:27:02.820
Jacob Stoops: For any instances of where you’re mentioning a specific word or phrase across your website and boom, those are unlinked dimensions within your own website easy and there’s

183
00:27:04.530 –> 00:27:07.590
Jeff Louella: A there’s actually WordPress plugins that would actually if these were

184
00:27:07.590 –> 00:27:14.340
Jeff Louella: Just as your blog that would, you would automatically just say these are the terms link here and it anytime a blog post was written.

185
00:27:15.450 –> 00:27:19.800
Jeff Louella: It would do that at Zappos actually used to do that internally when foot product reviews.

186
00:27:20.670 –> 00:27:29.700
Jeff Louella: Anytime. If you would say like these Nike sneakers are awesome and they would just highlight Nike automatically in a review like as a reviewer. I’m not linking to that page.

187
00:27:30.450 –> 00:27:40.830
Jeff Louella: I think they recently stopped doing that probably little spammy but but it was internal so there was one of those where they weren’t linking out there, creating internal links that way. So,

188
00:27:41.310 –> 00:27:43.680
Jacob Stoops: Let’s go. Oh, go ahead. Sarah.

189
00:27:44.010 –> 00:27:50.760
Sarah McDowell: No, I was just gonna say, I think a lot of businesses, Miss, miss a big opportunity with their homepage with internal linking

190
00:27:51.150 –> 00:28:03.900
Sarah McDowell: And especially like seasonal and opportunities. So if you’ve got a Christmas promotion or Christmas products that over the Christmas season, for example, or that’s all the way around, or maybe

191
00:28:04.260 –> 00:28:14.820
Sarah McDowell: You’ve put together this really good bit of content that is adding value. It’s got research. It’s got experts and people just forget to use the homepage to link to it because

192
00:28:15.210 –> 00:28:28.320
Sarah McDowell: And so, Hannah co host of the SEO SAS podcast came up with a really nice analogy. So when you’re thinking of like internal linking. You got to think of the homepage is the trunk. So that’s the core. And that’s the structure

193
00:28:28.740 –> 00:28:34.140
Sarah McDowell: And then you’ve got the branches. The first lots of branches and that’s sort of like your first

194
00:28:34.590 –> 00:28:48.150
Sarah McDowell: Two pages that are coming off that and then you’ve got a leaves as well, which you child pages. And I thought that was a nice way to think of how like how you sigh in the sort of how you can use it sort of thing.

195
00:28:50.250 –> 00:29:04.170
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, and and it that actually as you were saying that reminded me of some of the newer visualization tools that some of the crawlers have come out with. And I’ve never thought of it as like an actual tree, but

196
00:29:04.770 –> 00:29:05.880
Jacob Stoops: Start thinking about it.

197
00:29:06.960 –> 00:29:07.470
Jacob Stoops: That way.

198
00:29:08.070 –> 00:29:20.910
Sarah McDowell: It just makes sense because like your home. I think people forget and I mean this is a bugbear of mine is when people don’t like we don’t need much text on the homepage. That’s just have like put your pictures and it’s just like now.

199
00:29:21.210 –> 00:29:25.830
Sarah McDowell: That is just a missed opportunity there. And yeah, so I mean

200
00:29:26.160 –> 00:29:28.080
Jacob Stoops: Most powerful page people

201
00:29:30.480 –> 00:29:32.580
Jacob Stoops: What people can’t see is me shaking

202
00:29:33.990 –> 00:29:37.830
Jacob Stoops: Not actually shaking myself but shaking up a fake client.

203
00:29:38.670 –> 00:29:47.340
Sarah McDowell: And one more. One more point on this is some people. I did have a conversation with a client. And they were just like they didn’t. They were worried that

204
00:29:47.910 –> 00:29:56.460
Sarah McDowell: Their homepage was going to be too long, like scrolling wise and it was like that is the that’s the wrong point here that it wasn’t even that long at all. But yeah.

205
00:29:58.080 –> 00:30:05.490
Jeff Louella: It was funny. A check our website that had like this gigantic like look like an HTML site map at the bottom of their homepage.

206
00:30:06.270 –> 00:30:14.850
Jeff Louella: With like every link to their whole site. I just went to go pulled up the kind of talk about it, and it seemed like they remove that it might have been just for the holidays. They put that in there so

207
00:30:16.050 –> 00:30:24.690
Jeff Louella: It was a company off of Amazon own called eating. I like to go in Amazon’s footer and look at all the companies they list every company, they kind of own or work with at the bottom and

208
00:30:25.080 –> 00:30:36.720
Jeff Louella: It was one. I was like, I never heard of this one. And I clicked on it and it, it literally was a hero image and then like an HTML site map underneath it for every single like category product page they had

209
00:30:38.070 –> 00:30:41.130
Jeff Louella: Which I kind of liked because it got me through the site as quick as I could.

210
00:30:42.660 –> 00:30:44.040
Sarah McDowell: Again, no point in being

211
00:30:44.340 –> 00:30:48.690
Jeff Louella: You and I think that’s probably why they did it. So it was interesting. It’s not there now.

212
00:30:50.520 –> 00:30:57.720
Jacob Stoops: Jeff, I, I, I’ve got one more question, because I know you’re chomping at the bit to get to the news and I know that I also have a rant. So I want to get to that.

213
00:30:58.560 –> 00:31:10.260
Jacob Stoops: But Sarah, you mentioned you were, you were at an agency, not at you created an agency and then you decided not to do it anymore. Like what, what went into into that.

214
00:31:11.670 –> 00:31:26.370
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so basically I’m always up for trying something new, which is why I do a podcast. That’s how I got into roller derby. And so I’m always if someone says. Also, why don’t you try. I’m gonna try basically so

215
00:31:26.880 –> 00:31:35.640
Sarah McDowell: It was after a conversation. So when I went at my last service in house. For this list, as I mentioned earlier,

216
00:31:36.150 –> 00:31:49.020
Sarah McDowell: And they were mentioning that they were going to get rid of internal marketing and outsource at all. So obviously I had to go and find myself for the job and I, my boss at the time, not the boss now, but he was really

217
00:31:50.550 –> 00:31:58.500
Sarah McDowell: It was just quite an inspirational because he he was just like Sarah, you’ve got so I obviously had some connections still

218
00:31:58.800 –> 00:32:11.190
Sarah McDowell: And with the clients from that business because even though. Yes, I worked internally for DHL we also had like another branch which offered external marketing services.

219
00:32:12.150 –> 00:32:21.870
Sarah McDowell: And I saw and I had good relationships with the clients and and my boss at the time, just like you should try going on your own.

220
00:32:22.500 –> 00:32:29.310
Sarah McDowell: When you go on your own. It’s not like you have to start from scratch. You’ve already got it was about three or four clients to start with.

221
00:32:29.700 –> 00:32:36.990
Sarah McDowell: And when I approached them and said look, and the company is closing but I decided to go on my own. And would you

222
00:32:37.410 –> 00:32:46.020
Sarah McDowell: If I, if that’s the case, which would be happy if I carried on. And everyone was supportive and they’re like, Yes. And so, yeah, I did that for a bit and

223
00:32:46.380 –> 00:32:52.230
Sarah McDowell: The company, may I made profit which I’m told in your first year, not many businesses do

224
00:32:52.980 –> 00:33:01.440
Sarah McDowell: But because it was digital. I didn’t really have that many costs, overhead costs. So it was quite lucrative isn’t it is the word is

225
00:33:01.920 –> 00:33:17.220
Sarah McDowell: And and yeah and it just got to a point where yes, I was making money and I could pay the bills and I had this flexibility. I just got lonely and I because I’m

226
00:33:17.820 –> 00:33:27.060
Sarah McDowell: I like being part of a team and I just felt like I missed having conversations with that because obviously I could have conversations

227
00:33:27.480 –> 00:33:34.230
Sarah McDowell: online or at live events and stuff but I missed the live internal conversations where you also have

228
00:33:35.040 –> 00:33:47.430
Sarah McDowell: You care about this one thing that you’re working towards, and it was if something bad happened and which is part and parcel of owning a business that failed on me something good happened. It was like a one person party.

229
00:33:48.630 –> 00:34:04.260
Sarah McDowell: And yeah, it just got to a point where I just decided that being a savvy business, business woman wasn’t for me and and yeah decided to but and I did speak to. So when I was going through that and running my business.

230
00:34:05.070 –> 00:34:12.120
Sarah McDowell: I did know my boss now at my my media Paul and I was always honest with him. And that’s when he was like, well,

231
00:34:12.540 –> 00:34:26.040
Sarah McDowell: You can come and work for, for me, and you still have the flexibility but you have the support and you’ll be working with a team and and that, so. So yes, I can say that I’ve tried it, but it wasn’t for me basically

232
00:34:27.630 –> 00:34:32.310
Jeff Louella: It’s, it’s tough. I mean, even just running a team can be tough, but let alone having to

233
00:34:32.970 –> 00:34:41.490
Jeff Louella: Deal with people live people’s livelihood and things like that. It’s I it’s funny. I always had the in my head, I’m like, I always want to start a business.

234
00:34:42.210 –> 00:34:49.170
Jeff Louella: And then I get to positions where I need to like I’m in charge of someone like whether they have a paycheck.

235
00:34:50.010 –> 00:34:58.680
Jeff Louella: And things like that and it gets a little scary sometimes and I realized like, you know, I, I’m really great at solving problems and solving like

236
00:34:59.070 –> 00:35:06.870
Jeff Louella: Technical issues on SEOs for SEO and things like that. I’m not great at HR, that is the one thing that you really need to be to

237
00:35:07.590 –> 00:35:21.960
Jeff Louella: To to run a company right it’s more you have to be a people person and and sometimes I just don’t have that empathy and me when the little I’m just like, Is your work done know and it’s like, well, I don’t care about anything else. And it’s not the right way to do it because

238
00:35:23.640 –> 00:35:36.150
Jeff Louella: I know like I need to connect a little bit better with my co workers, let alone if I was actually the one in charge of everything in there so it. I totally get wanting to go back and being part of part of the team and

239
00:35:37.170 –> 00:35:38.850
Jeff Louella: There’s a special breed, to be able to run it all.

240
00:35:39.240 –> 00:35:51.000
Sarah McDowell: And it’s like when because when you’re in a team. You can you can stay up to date with stuff that’s happening more because you have conversations date. Yeah. And or say you want to try some new

241
00:35:51.390 –> 00:36:10.800
Sarah McDowell: I’m always like, I always think it’s good to get a second opinion or just wouldn’t do ideas with someone else or get get someone’s the perspective or the point of view. And I just felt like I didn’t really have that when I was on on my own. I mean, get your small violin out for me.

242
00:36:13.230 –> 00:36:14.340
Sarah McDowell: I’m much better.

243
00:36:15.900 –> 00:36:23.130
Sarah McDowell: Rather than yeah I’m about to be in part of a team and having security of not being my own boss.

244
00:36:23.730 –> 00:36:34.110
Jeff Louella: Right. I think my part of my issue is I treat everyone equally. And he can when you’re in equally as in like mean you can do the same amount of work or same everything and

245
00:36:34.710 –> 00:36:37.110
Jeff Louella: When you’re the CEO, I would expect everyone to be CEO.

246
00:36:39.120 –> 00:36:39.990
Jeff Louella: So that’s it for part

247
00:36:42.750 –> 00:36:51.630
Sarah McDowell: One of our one of our clients and that they one of their things that they say is that they don’t have a business hierarchy, which I think is

248
00:36:52.260 –> 00:37:01.650
Sarah McDowell: Quite interesting so it’s like a flat structure. I think it’s a trend that businesses. Try and know how it’s like over the pond sort of thing.

249
00:37:01.980 –> 00:37:19.380
Sarah McDowell: And this idea that everyone is the same and, naturally, you do get leaders, don’t you, but the fact is that everyone is sort of treated equally, as it were, and and yeah I thought that was really interesting to have his case, we

250
00:37:19.770 –> 00:37:34.770
Jeff Louella: Were in a fairly flat organization Jake and I, and it has its pluses and minuses. And you know, I think when it comes down to if everyone is equal, then yeah, you need to have those natural leaders come out to to be able to run things and

251
00:37:35.940 –> 00:37:43.740
Jeff Louella: Though I think when your natural leader at that point. It’s like, you like to be crammed a leader in a way and edify the organization. You’re not so it’s

252
00:37:45.450 –> 00:37:49.020
Jeff Louella: I think there are some people who are definitely we have different titles and different levels.

253
00:37:49.620 –> 00:38:05.970
Jeff Louella: But when it comes to like reporting, we have two major departments with two major department heads and they kind of are in charge of all the direct you know raises and promotions and things like that everyone else is pretty much equal underneath there, even though there are levels of

254
00:38:06.990 –> 00:38:10.740
Jeff Louella: Positions, it really comes down to, like, what kind of work, you’ll be doing and

255
00:38:11.340 –> 00:38:14.580
Jeff Louella: But when it comes down to the HR type of stuff. You are all equal. So

256
00:38:14.640 –> 00:38:17.010
Jacob Stoops: How much scratch you’re making. Yeah.

257
00:38:18.030 –> 00:38:24.390
Jacob Stoops: And let me tell you in flat companies like don’t let anybody fool you, everybody’s not equal.

258
00:38:24.840 –> 00:38:34.590
Jacob Stoops: The CEO and the upper level people like they’re making the most scratch. All right, they’re making the most money. So I’ve got my. I’m not going to go on a rant. Here I’ve got my problems with flat organizations like

259
00:38:35.520 –> 00:38:45.510
Jacob Stoops: I don’t have a problem with search discovery and their, their format. It’s much more hierarchical than the last place I came from, in which I had a real real big problem.

260
00:38:46.650 –> 00:38:56.670
Jacob Stoops: With the level of flatness in the organization and the lack of advancement and money advancement opportunities. So anyways, yeah. Let’s go to the news.

261
00:38:56.940 –> 00:39:05.040
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and I’ve kind of flows right into this. You kind of HR owning an agency being in charge of hiring.

262
00:39:05.610 –> 00:39:10.320
Jeff Louella: I don’t know if everyone’s seen, but Bill hearts are kind of put out a question on Twitter yesterday.

263
00:39:10.860 –> 00:39:19.230
Jeff Louella: Basically saying if I was hiring someone for an SEO position. What questions what I asked him, and then he goes and says he’ll start and his first question would be,

264
00:39:19.830 –> 00:39:35.010
Jeff Louella: What is the Google Florida update and why was it so significant part of the SEO history and basically says if they can answer that he’ll hire the wrong spot and followed by a million responses about how he’s old school and a boomer

265
00:39:36.240 –> 00:39:48.150
Jeff Louella: And different things in there, but I guess question would have, like, you know, if it’s a good question. In general, and I think we all have different ways of of hiring and you know me personally when it comes to

266
00:39:49.110 –> 00:39:53.610
Jeff Louella: When I am kind of in charge of hiring and when I’ve had positions where I was.

267
00:39:54.690 –> 00:39:57.720
Jeff Louella: Solely in charge of hiring I’m, I’m a very

268
00:39:59.100 –> 00:40:03.750
Jeff Louella: Like I say bad, but I am. I’m not gonna say thorough either but I make people do presentations.

269
00:40:04.170 –> 00:40:10.440
Jeff Louella: I like to give them a site and say whether it’s your first SEO job or you’re coming in as a director. I like to give you

270
00:40:10.860 –> 00:40:16.140
Jeff Louella: A project and basically say, because I’m going to learn. Way more than your resume shows me

271
00:40:16.470 –> 00:40:21.810
Jeff Louella: When you sit down and tell me what’s wrong with the site and I’m never saying like, give me a two hour presentation. It’s always like 30 minutes

272
00:40:22.260 –> 00:40:29.250
Jeff Louella: If you are for the brand new in SEO. Maybe it’s give me you know presentation on five reasons why contents. Good.

273
00:40:29.610 –> 00:40:37.110
Jeff Louella: Another one, like if you were coming in more advanced, I will give you a site that I know not only ever use my own clients, cuz I don’t want to seem like I’m trying to get free work.

274
00:40:37.590 –> 00:40:45.660
Jeff Louella: But I’ll pick a site out there and just say, Hey, here’s a website, you know, give me a quick audit and then present me your findings and that way I can see your thinking behind everything

275
00:40:46.410 –> 00:40:54.690
Jeff Louella: So I actually before even as questions that I like to have a good presentation. Like, I’m like client, because then I know if I could stick someone in front of a client.

276
00:40:56.250 –> 00:40:59.340
Jeff Louella: But when it comes to questions like, What kind of questions do you all ask

277
00:41:02.100 –> 00:41:04.290
Sarah McDowell: Oh, is it is it me fast.

278
00:41:04.440 –> 00:41:05.910
Jeff Louella: There you go. We’ll go you first, sir.

279
00:41:06.270 –> 00:41:10.740
Sarah McDowell: Hey, I am so, so just confirm the question. So what so

280
00:41:10.980 –> 00:41:15.000
Jeff Louella: You know, if you were when you were hiring someone what kind of questions would you ask them.

281
00:41:18.240 –> 00:41:24.450
Sarah McDowell: Okay, so I would ask and first and foremost there. So if life experiences.

282
00:41:24.810 –> 00:41:35.580
Sarah McDowell: And and what what they’ve done in in SEO sort of thing. And what what what what are the challenges that they’ve found just just talk to them and have a conversation, because I think

283
00:41:36.150 –> 00:41:44.820
Sarah McDowell: When you have a honest face to face conversation with someone, it’s quite obvious straight away, whether they know what they’re talking about, or not.

284
00:41:46.200 –> 00:41:55.620
Sarah McDowell: And so a thing. And then I also am so depending when the conversations happened I might bring up like the latest updates that have happened.

285
00:41:56.250 –> 00:42:10.560
Sarah McDowell: Because obviously, Google is always updating its algorithm. And it’s constantly changing and the times where an update will be given a name is because it’s affected or this is my understanding, though.

286
00:42:11.070 –> 00:42:15.630
Sarah McDowell: But it’s affected enough sites that there’s been enough chatter chatter in the industry.

287
00:42:15.960 –> 00:42:30.990
Sarah McDowell: And then all of a sudden, we’ve got a name for it sort of thing. So, so I’ll have that conversation and see. Okay. Because if you are passionate about SEO. And one thing that you’re going to be on the lookout for is how it’s changing you I mean

288
00:42:32.250 –> 00:42:40.560
Sarah McDowell: And and other things as well. So not just Google’s core algorithm, but other things. So, for example, bet and how

289
00:42:41.400 –> 00:42:50.370
Sarah McDowell: How Google can now use that to better understand and users intent and keywords and stuff like that. So having conversations like that.

290
00:42:50.940 –> 00:42:59.970
Sarah McDowell: And I’d also ask them sort of their, their goals and their aspirations sort of thing and where they want to be and what they want to do.

291
00:43:00.510 –> 00:43:13.290
Sarah McDowell: And I’d like some proof like some. I don’t know if they could come to the interview and sort of say, this is what I’m really proud of this is, this is what I did for a client.

292
00:43:13.710 –> 00:43:24.060
Sarah McDowell: And this was the results. And this is why it’s so good sort of thing. Because I think if you’ve got proof of what they’ve done. And because there’s a lot of people who can talk the talk isn’t there.

293
00:43:25.140 –> 00:43:40.110
Sarah McDowell: But when it actually comes to doing it. So it’d be good to actually see some proof of that. And, and I don’t know. I mean, maybe check them out a bit before so I see if they’ve got like a Twitter profile or a LinkedIn profile or and just see what sort of

294
00:43:41.880 –> 00:43:46.410
Sarah McDowell: If they’re getting involved in SEO to to chatter or and things like that.

295
00:43:48.270 –> 00:43:49.860
Sarah McDowell: And I don’t know, and

296
00:43:52.560 –> 00:43:53.910
Jeff Louella: No, that’s great. I think

297
00:43:55.200 –> 00:44:04.260
Jeff Louella: It’s funny, I take an approach like that to an extent where I get to try to just know the person because I know if I am working with them. I need to at least like them so they might have all the answers.

298
00:44:04.860 –> 00:44:10.170
Jeff Louella: And might be an amazing at that. But if we just don’t click. It’s not going to be fun for everybody. Right, so

299
00:44:10.230 –> 00:44:13.050
Sarah McDowell: No date you straight off, whether you’re going to click with someone

300
00:44:13.200 –> 00:44:13.620
Sarah McDowell: Or not.

301
00:44:14.190 –> 00:44:14.820
Jeff Louella: And within

302
00:44:15.120 –> 00:44:16.830
Sarah McDowell: A few jokes now.

303
00:44:18.690 –> 00:44:20.910
Jeff Louella: Time for bed dad jokes to so

304
00:44:22.650 –> 00:44:30.030
Jacob Stoops: The thing about interviews is like, I find it really difficult to assess somebody’s quality.

305
00:44:30.510 –> 00:44:39.360
Jacob Stoops: In a 30 minute interview or even an hour interview right you often don’t know somebody real true quality in terms of how they’re going to perform at work.

306
00:44:39.810 –> 00:45:00.960
Jacob Stoops: So you’ve worked with them for quite a while. So the for me. The, the basis of a, of an interview is do they seem to know what they’re talking about. Do they click in terms of their, their fit within both the role as well as where they’re going to be working

307
00:45:03.150 –> 00:45:10.950
Jacob Stoops: Are they, and I think this one’s really important are they naturally curious, do they want to learn more.

308
00:45:11.550 –> 00:45:20.550
Jacob Stoops: Do they have ambition. Are they competitive. Do they have Dr. Sarah. I also think, is it, it’s really important that they show

309
00:45:20.970 –> 00:45:32.610
Jacob Stoops: In this is what I find missing from most resumes that I look at actual tangible examples that prove out the results that you’ve actually driven results because you’re right.

310
00:45:34.290 –> 00:45:42.480
Jacob Stoops: Some people do talk a big game and then you get them in and you find that they’ve just got no clue. And they’re just faking it until they

311
00:45:43.290 –> 00:45:43.710
Sarah McDowell: Take it.

312
00:45:43.770 –> 00:45:44.190
Right.

313
00:45:45.390 –> 00:45:50.580
Jacob Stoops: I will say that this um so this tweet from Bill. I don’t know if he meant to like set off.

314
00:45:51.810 –> 00:45:55.860
Jacob Stoops: Set off the the Twitter swarm that can sometimes

315
00:45:57.210 –> 00:46:03.990
Jacob Stoops: Eat its own eat its own younger. Sometimes you have to watch out for SEO Twitter, man. If you say the wrong thing. They will

316
00:46:04.500 –> 00:46:08.580
Jacob Stoops: They will come after you. And so I want to be very clear. I don’t want to be

317
00:46:09.960 –> 00:46:14.370
Jacob Stoops: Perceived as like coming after Bill BC. So I’ve never met him, but he seems like a nice guy.

318
00:46:14.970 –> 00:46:24.270
Jacob Stoops: The question. So what is the Google Florida update and why was it such a significant part of SEO history to me in 2019 it’s like asking

319
00:46:24.810 –> 00:46:44.160
Jacob Stoops: A high schooler about a rotary phone like and why it’s so important to cell phones today and it’s just like, Okay, like I love history. I’m a huge history buff and and I’m a believer that if you don’t, if you aren’t aware of history, you’re not going to recognize it when it is

320
00:46:45.450 –> 00:46:57.180
Jacob Stoops: Coming back around in today’s age. However, this is not the same thing. This is apples to oranges in the Google Florida update. Not only has never played a role.

321
00:46:57.960 –> 00:47:10.920
Jacob Stoops: In in terms of my SEO work. I will say that it’s kind of like what is it back to the future with the timeline. So like if Google Florida update doesn’t happen then Google Panda in Google Penguin and all of these other

322
00:47:11.070 –> 00:47:26.610
Jacob Stoops: Needs never happen. Right. So it had to happen. And I’m glad it happened. But this thing happened in like the early 2000s before like 95% of the people that work in SEO are were even even thinking about SEO.

323
00:47:27.720 –> 00:47:30.570
Jacob Stoops: It was barely a thing. So like to ask somebody

324
00:47:31.770 –> 00:47:40.710
Jacob Stoops: If they remember that it’s like, Well, no, because I was in college or high school like no no not relevant, how they do their job today.

325
00:47:41.040 –> 00:47:58.170
Sarah McDowell: Show me. It’s better if someone can demonstrate like things that are happening now, or kitty chatter about what’s going to happen in the future and being hung up, and I think it’s a bit like traditionalist, isn’t it, I suppose, if that’s the right word to use.

326
00:48:00.000 –> 00:48:08.850
Sarah McDowell: But I do think some SEO is do you get a bit caught up on. I don’t know, like knowing your stuff and

327
00:48:09.300 –> 00:48:15.570
Sarah McDowell: I mean, I couldn’t sit and tell you, like all the updates that have happened you know i mean like

328
00:48:16.260 –> 00:48:33.150
Sarah McDowell: I do understand that and I’ve looked into me search how Google has an search engines and the internet has evolved because I find that interesting and but getting hung up on putting someone on the spot and being like, Tommy, what this is right now. Do you know what I mean, it’s just

329
00:48:33.570 –> 00:48:35.400
Sarah McDowell: It doesn’t feel. Yeah.

330
00:48:36.270 –> 00:48:36.570
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

331
00:48:37.440 –> 00:48:43.590
Jacob Stoops: The last thing I’ll say, and I do want to move into the, into talking about the podcast is like

332
00:48:44.130 –> 00:48:53.370
Jacob Stoops: It’s not a freakin pop quiz. Right, we’re doing SEO, and for the most part, like, very few of my clients have ever been significantly impacted by

333
00:48:53.910 –> 00:49:03.510
Jacob Stoops: An algorithm update. And not only that, like my clients their problems tend to be way, way, way, way, way more basic and way more fundamental than

334
00:49:03.960 –> 00:49:18.300
Jacob Stoops: All of this stuff, especially Google Florida in which one no client has ever asked me about that and to I’ve only ever heard one other SEO outside of maybe SEO Twitter a few times actually mentioned it to me in an office setting.

335
00:49:18.720 –> 00:49:22.110
Jacob Stoops: And he mentioned it to me because he was reminiscing about the old days.

336
00:49:23.280 –> 00:49:23.610
Sarah McDowell: It just

337
00:49:24.060 –> 00:49:25.020
Sarah McDowell: It just fine today.

338
00:49:25.530 –> 00:49:26.190
Jacob Stoops: And that was it.

339
00:49:27.240 –> 00:49:30.360
Jeff Louella: So neither of you are getting hired just telling you because

340
00:49:30.390 –> 00:49:36.330
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, suggested that they would walk out at the interview and I don’t think that I would do that but

341
00:49:36.840 –> 00:49:55.860
Jeff Louella: I mean, I honestly I think the answer is, hey, there’s been a million of them. I’d have to look that one back up but i mean i i was in the business that time but I I’m lucky I haven’t gotten hit by a couple algorithm updates, but only a couple over the last, you know, 1015 years so

342
00:49:57.000 –> 00:49:58.170
Jeff Louella: Nothing there was

343
00:49:58.530 –> 00:50:05.100
Jeff Louella: Nothing was irreversible and you know it’s like a lot of times it’s like hey your site’s not the quality like i mean i

344
00:50:05.490 –> 00:50:14.340
Jeff Louella: Don’t I didn’t even look up, Florida, but I can tell you, like that. It’s probably something to do with your site was not great quality or the links pointing seems like that’s what it is about

345
00:50:15.690 –> 00:50:16.140
Jeff Louella: So,

346
00:50:16.680 –> 00:50:28.740
Sarah McDowell: I do, I do have to believe them. And that same figure. So every time that Google was out a new update or changes the algorithm or do something different is all about make it better in the experience for the user.

347
00:50:29.340 –> 00:50:38.610
Sarah McDowell: As long as you’re doing that with your website. And that’s your goal, you should be all right with like penalties and stuff like, don’t get me wrong, you

348
00:50:39.210 –> 00:50:48.780
Sarah McDowell: People do get hit, and it’s completely unintentional because yeah like just happens, isn’t it, and the SEO world. But if you’re there, providing value.

349
00:50:49.080 –> 00:51:00.600
Sarah McDowell: Your website is accessible. You’re not deceiving Googled you know i mean like the key things if you’re always doing those those sort of things, then you should you should be okay.

350
00:51:02.010 –> 00:51:04.980
Sarah McDowell: You should. I mean, it’s a big should lie, but yeah.

351
00:51:06.240 –> 00:51:06.450
Sarah McDowell: So,

352
00:51:08.310 –> 00:51:20.340
Jacob Stoops: Tell us about your podcast, because I want to make sure we’ve got about 17 minutes left. And I’m going to apologize to the audience. I have a hard stop and that was bad planning on my part, but I want to make sure we talked about the SEO, SEM podcast.

353
00:51:20.790 –> 00:51:37.530
Sarah McDowell: I’m okay. Okay, well, yes. And so the SEO SAS podcast. And so it came on, it was born. And because me and my friend Hannah and I actually worked with her. So I know her.

354
00:51:37.890 –> 00:51:52.980
Sarah McDowell: And but we, it was a couple of years ago, and we were at Brighton SEO and like the big conference in the UK. And we saw that the SEO so of so attendees and speakers at the time.

355
00:51:53.430 –> 00:52:03.780
Sarah McDowell: Tend to be like male orientated. And that seemed to be like if you look to the ratio between male speakers and FEMALE SPEAKERS mayo.

356
00:52:04.140 –> 00:52:15.120
Sarah McDowell: Attendees and female attendees. It was more. So the males, it was, it seemed to be a male dominated industry at the time, obviously it’s getting better and better as time time is going on.

357
00:52:15.540 –> 00:52:26.610
Sarah McDowell: And but at the same time, you also saw a niche for a female lead SEO podcast and because we because after

358
00:52:27.390 –> 00:52:35.340
Sarah McDowell: After we went to Brighton SEO and we had this conversation. And then when I looked into podcasts. I had a conversation with Hannah was just like we’ve got an opportunity here.

359
00:52:35.730 –> 00:52:49.320
Sarah McDowell: And there’s there’s not that much female lead SEO really like just SEO podcast. And I think this is an opportunity and and I was quite passionate about it because

360
00:52:49.830 –> 00:53:07.170
Sarah McDowell: I wanted to like showcase other amazing females in the SEO community. And I also wanted to I think SEO gets a bad rap for being boring. And that’s the joke in our office anyway.

361
00:53:08.400 –> 00:53:18.450
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, and I wanted to sort of be like, no, it can actually be some sort of furnace in inspiring and yeah and it doesn’t, it’s not boring at all.

362
00:53:19.470 –> 00:53:38.640
Sarah McDowell: And and yes and what and why why outs, I think, Well, yes, we just thought we needed. We just needed to do it and we love to talk about SEO as well. So we thought why don’t we put together a podcast. And yeah, as I explained it enough that

363
00:53:39.630 –> 00:53:53.070
Jacob Stoops: It’s kind of like what I think is interesting about SEO podcasts if if clients or if if you’re somebody that needs SEO. If you want to know like how the SEOs talk if you were

364
00:53:53.880 –> 00:54:06.090
Jacob Stoops: If you wanted to be like a fly on the wall and you want to know how does an SEO talk about SEO to another SEO. That’s one reason I would think to listen to Sarah’s podcast, as well as to ours, because of

365
00:54:06.480 –> 00:54:22.230
Jacob Stoops: What we really think when and when that sometimes comes comes through to you as a as a client or in house to whoever we’re delivering the recommendations to it’s kind of a filtered version of that. And this is a little bit more on filtered, I would say.

366
00:54:23.310 –> 00:54:24.540
Sarah McDowell: Transparent we

367
00:54:25.980 –> 00:54:42.390
Sarah McDowell: Transparency and yeah and I mean it’s just about having a bit of fun and educating people because as well and as a lot of businesses, small businesses that don’t have the budget to have a marketing team or high marketing. So

368
00:54:43.050 –> 00:54:47.760
Sarah McDowell: There are some things that you can do like nine times out of 10 leave SEO.

369
00:54:48.060 –> 00:54:56.430
Sarah McDowell: And SEM professional likes you don’t want to break stuff, but there are, if we can at least be educating businesses and they can start thinking about it because

370
00:54:56.790 –> 00:55:08.760
Sarah McDowell: There’s a lot of businesses that have thought about all or they’ve heard of the term SEO or they know that they need to do it, but they don’t really quite understand it. They don’t quite get it. So we like to sort of present it in a way

371
00:55:09.810 –> 00:55:17.790
Sarah McDowell: That is accessible and it’s all I could do that or that makes sense to me or no that is a priority, I need to prioritize this for my website.

372
00:55:18.240 –> 00:55:33.570
Sarah McDowell: And and we’ve had some really awesome conversations. And don’t get me wrong. We do I know I said about like getting it was a female lead wanted to showcase females, but we do invite and males on as well. Don’t worry.

373
00:55:34.830 –> 00:55:48.720
Sarah McDowell: Just had amazing people on who are just the people that we get on just want to share knowledge or share their experiences and that is so priceless in this industry and we’ve had

374
00:55:49.200 –> 00:56:01.740
Sarah McDowell: So today I actually recorded a podcast with a lady Claire Carlisle who helps her thing is helping small businesses grow by making the most out of local SEO.

375
00:56:02.190 –> 00:56:14.970
Sarah McDowell: And and it was just so just having a conversation about the possibilities of local SEO and Google my business pages and stuff. We spoke to carry Rose who

376
00:56:15.690 –> 00:56:33.090
Sarah McDowell: Is awesome at she’s a creative SEO agency and their thing is about getting links by doing awesome creative content and some of the things that night talking to her was just amazing as well. We’ve had Sophie Cali on who

377
00:56:34.500 –> 00:56:46.530
Sarah McDowell: Talk to us about search listening. So the idea behind not getting caught up on keywords and search volumes, but more. What is it, what is it that people are

378
00:56:46.980 –> 00:57:00.660
Sarah McDowell: Wanting to know about what are the topics sort of thing and and biting content that sort of answers those questions. We’ve also had a lady on who talked about gamification and how

379
00:57:01.740 –> 00:57:17.130
Sarah McDowell: How that can help with links to your site. And another way of creating really good content. And then we had the lady merely king who came on, who gave talks obviously site speed Page Speed is a big factor with SEO.

380
00:57:17.580 –> 00:57:25.320
Sarah McDowell: And she came on with life. So she wrote for search engine watch a piece with practical tips and tools to how to do it. So,

381
00:57:26.370 –> 00:57:36.660
Sarah McDowell: We’re all about like inviting people on to talk about stuff. And we don’t. Sometimes it’s just me and Hannah, who will debate stuff. So, for example, or debate, the

382
00:57:37.380 –> 00:57:54.840
Sarah McDowell: ongoing debate of what’s better long short long or short content sort of thing. And we’ll talk about internal linking we’ll talk about competitive research. So it’s a bit of a generalist podcast where we just discussed. And yeah, basically.

383
00:57:55.260 –> 00:58:09.540
Jeff Louella: That’s awesome. So I’m kind of lucky that I came in on season two. Because Jacob really did a lot of the getting things off the ground and and just starting from zero, right. So I got I got the come in and

384
00:58:10.620 –> 00:58:15.660
Jeff Louella: All that stuff was already set so that that was, you know, easy for me. Of course, because it was easy to say yes.

385
00:58:16.200 –> 00:58:25.830
Jeff Louella: Because I’d have to do all that groundwork. So what are some of the things that like learning and challenges that you had from just like starting the podcast from zero and getting it to where it is now.

386
00:58:26.310 –> 00:58:27.240
Sarah McDowell: Yes, and listeners.

387
00:58:27.900 –> 00:58:41.940
Sarah McDowell: Yeah, and I say to you put. So obviously, we had this brain wave and maybe we may have had a few wines, remember that. Oh my god, this is amazing idea we’re going to get loads of listens on our first episode.

388
00:58:42.630 –> 00:58:57.720
Sarah McDowell: And it doesn’t I and it took some time. I mean, wear a year on now and we’ve reached I think we’ve just been 7000 total downloads and we get, I don’t know, this would be being very transparent and I don’t know about your guys numbers, but

389
00:58:58.080 –> 00:59:00.360
Jeff Louella: And millions, millions

390
00:59:01.020 –> 00:59:02.100
Sarah McDowell: Millions admit that same as

391
00:59:03.120 –> 00:59:07.260
Sarah McDowell: We get around 150 to about 300 people

392
00:59:08.430 –> 00:59:16.500
Sarah McDowell: per episode sort of thing and and it has been hard to grow it. And at first it is just your mom listening and

393
00:59:16.860 –> 00:59:26.760
Sarah McDowell: Every episode. My mom would like what’s that mean okay podcast. I don’t know what you’re quite talking about but you sounded. Wonderful. Um, but yeah and so

394
00:59:27.660 –> 00:59:39.450
Sarah McDowell: It was it was hard, but we just put the time and effort into it and you do lie. You do have to think outside the box of how to get your podcast underneath people so

395
00:59:39.810 –> 00:59:54.120
Sarah McDowell: I spent plenty and evening, just on LinkedIn messaging people about the podcast or another way was like inviting people with whoever who already have a following to come on, because then you’re like okay there.

396
00:59:54.750 –> 01:00:02.940
Sarah McDowell: And that has helped I think peaks and valleys numbers and we mentioned recently did some research. So we did

397
01:00:03.960 –> 01:00:17.880
Sarah McDowell: Research based around local SEO where we were talking to those who market local businesses and we wanted to understand, like, day to day activities and challenges. And so we did a survey I have paid as well, like I did some paid advertising.

398
01:00:19.200 –> 01:00:25.290
Sarah McDowell: So yes, getting listeners is hard, especially at the beginning and

399
01:00:26.340 –> 01:00:37.470
Sarah McDowell: If I believe that if your podcast is entertaining educational people are going to just not shit, basically, people are going to want to listen.

400
01:00:38.160 –> 01:00:50.970
Sarah McDowell: And stuff and other challenges is so obviously it is a side hustle. So you have to factor in okay when recording editing and there’s the research that goes in as the

401
01:00:51.720 –> 01:01:07.590
Sarah McDowell: Sort of talking to your guests when they’re going to come on. So there is a lot. At first, I was a bit naive and I was like, be easy. No, it wouldn’t take much time at all. Just sit in front of a microphone do bit talking and jobs are good and I was wrong.

402
01:01:08.910 –> 01:01:15.810
Sarah McDowell: It’s a lot more than just that. And I’m say I’m guessing you guys can relate to that. Like the wackier

403
01:01:16.740 –> 01:01:24.540
Jeff Louella: I mean, I go, I go to iTunes all the time or the podcast app now and just type in SEO and then waiting for us to the show up there.

404
01:01:25.440 –> 01:01:40.770
Jeff Louella: In the top you know 50 at least. And I think it’s new to me in the SEO side of things, right, because it’s working on Google working on, you know, just search engines in general for a while that now trying to like get a podcast to rank in a podcast app.

405
01:01:42.120 –> 01:01:57.360
Jeff Louella: It’s not you know is I, I’m still learning right and we still haven’t cracked that nut to there’s some think there’s one podcasts that has like three episodes but ranks like number three in the podcast app for some reason on iTunes and it’s like, why are you there like you have

406
01:01:58.050 –> 01:02:11.670
Jeff Louella: Four years and you only put three episodes, only one of them had to do with SEO, but yet you rank up there so I’m hoping like the new podcasts how apples breaking it out, out of iTunes now gets a better algorithm that update those

407
01:02:11.880 –> 01:02:28.050
Jeff Louella: Those, I think, some are trash and there’s no way to really, I’m not going to negative attack and other and other podcasts, but the same time i like i you know we’re really trying to focus on getting our like hey, leave a review, you know, follow us certainly subscribe and things like that.

408
01:02:28.770 –> 01:02:36.180
Sarah McDowell: How awesome is it when I say when we got our first ever review. Oh my gosh, it was like champagne at the ready because

409
01:02:36.840 –> 01:02:43.140
Sarah McDowell: And that was, that’s a little bit. So when you first doing the podcast and you, you have no idea how

410
01:02:43.440 –> 01:02:59.310
Sarah McDowell: Like how it’s going really, like, yes, you can look at numbers. And how many people are listening, but it’s not until you get reviews or even like people reaching out saying I this is an awesome podcast I remember the first time we’ve got an email.

411
01:03:00.510 –> 01:03:13.650
Sarah McDowell: And I yeah i i lost. I lost it because I was like, Oh my God, but it’s like when people are saying good stuff about your podcast and that gives you more reason doesn’t it to carry on.

412
01:03:16.110 –> 01:03:16.830
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, definitely.

413
01:03:17.160 –> 01:03:26.010
Jeff Louella: So we’re gonna wrap this up and be respectful of everybody’s time but we used to. We usually ask a question at the end of every podcast and

414
01:03:27.360 –> 01:03:41.010
Jeff Louella: Would this is going to be the question this time. So it’s usually about what kind of advice would you give we usually make a general about SEO, but I want to make it more about podcasting. So what would be one piece of advice you would give someone who wanted to start a podcast.

415
01:03:42.660 –> 01:03:46.350
Jeff Louella: Tomorrow, you know, what was the first thing or the best piece of advice you can give them

416
01:03:46.830 –> 01:04:01.740
Sarah McDowell: Make sure is the topic that you’re passionate about and you really can get your teeth stuck into it and you just going to live and believe it because if you’re not passionate about something, you’re just not going to make it work and

417
01:04:03.210 –> 01:04:09.990
Sarah McDowell: That is the top. And yeah, just make it, make it educational make it fun. Don’t be shared and yeah

418
01:04:11.640 –> 01:04:12.420
Sarah McDowell: A bit swearing.

419
01:04:12.750 –> 01:04:14.220
Jeff Louella: I already filled that I don’t

420
01:04:14.340 –> 01:04:16.350
Jacob Stoops: Care about. Don’t be no good life.

421
01:04:17.760 –> 01:04:18.300
Jeff Louella: Is good life.

422
01:04:22.200 –> 01:04:32.460
Sarah McDowell: And but yeah and I mean yeah and I mean I’m I would definitely recommend if you want to do a podcast, definitely do it because you just get like for this conversation right now.

423
01:04:33.180 –> 01:04:42.270
Sarah McDowell: It’s been amazing. And your gut guys podcast in is so good in I was a bit nervous when you invited me onto yours because I thought, Oh my gosh, I’m gonna have to really work.

424
01:04:43.080 –> 01:04:44.220
Jeff Louella: We don’t know what we’re doing. We’re just

425
01:04:44.520 –> 01:04:45.450
Jeff Louella: winging it all the time.

426
01:04:46.950 –> 01:05:01.890
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, definitely, if you want to start podcast tomorrow. Just make sure you’ve got a topic that you’re passionate about and you’ve got a lie and spend a bit of time on your graphic as well. I’d say that because you need that to like popped in here in the

427
01:05:03.930 –> 01:05:21.360
Sarah McDowell: Search and format as well. I think of a format. So we, for example, our format is we will have a feature it at the end to make it like fun, and it’s normally Hannah testimony on like my general knowledge which I have no no so

428
01:05:23.100 –> 01:05:26.880
Sarah McDowell: But yeah, I mean, I think I gave more than one bit of advice there. Sorry.

429
01:05:27.300 –> 01:05:39.870
Jeff Louella: That’s good bonus. Bonus material. Yeah. Awesome. Love. Love. The. I want to thank you for coming on the show. It’s been great. We’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I was typing the Jake eggs like I could talk to people from the UK all day.

430
01:05:42.930 –> 01:05:47.100
Jeff Louella: I just love it. But, uh, yeah, thanks for coming on the show and

431
01:05:48.240 –> 01:05:51.690
Jeff Louella: Everyone else like I’m not sure where this is coming out, but I’m happy holidays. Yeah.

432
01:05:51.870 –> 01:06:01.860
Jacob Stoops: It’s gonna be coming out in a few weeks. We’re trying. We’ve had some scheduling snafu we’re trying to space out the the episodes. So we’re recording three episodes in one

433
01:06:02.460 –> 01:06:12.120
Jacob Stoops: Week. But nonetheless, go and connect with Sarah go find her podcast. Listen, listen, listen, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on.

434
01:06:12.660 –> 01:06:13.800
Sarah McDowell: Thank you very much for having me.

435
01:06:14.520 –> 01:06:16.290
Jacob Stoops: All right, bye everybody. Thank you.

#34: Casie Gillette

Episode Summary

We talk with Casie Gillette, Sr. Director of Digital at KoMarketing.
We discuss:

  • How she got her start in marketing working for an online dating site in the mid 2000s literally handing out flyers in clubs, which actually led to her first SEO job which is ultimately where she fell in love with it
  • How she got to KoMarketing, how she left and then boomeranged right back
  • In-house versus agency
  • Her biggest SEO challenges
  • Convincing clients to get recommendations implemented
  • How she learned to be a confident public speaker
  • The recent SEO’s are assholes kerfuffle
  • The importance of SEO training and education

And much more.

Episode Transcript

1
00:00:01.260 –> 00:00:11.219
Jacob Stoops: Hey everybody this is Jacob stoops here again with the Page 2 Podcast and I am joined by Mr. Jeff Louella. Jeff, how’s it going?

2
00:00:11.759 –> 00:00:12.690
Jeff Louella: Hey everybody. How you doing?

3
00:00:13.590 –> 00:00:15.839
Jacob Stoops: Good. Jeff you changed it up that time.

4
00:00:15.900 –> 00:00:16.410
Jeff Louella: Yeah.

5
00:00:16.560 –> 00:00:17.970
Jacob Stoops: We, it’s like, Hey, how are you, hey,

6
00:00:18.750 –> 00:00:21.210
Jacob Stoops: Hey, like out. What is it out Borland

7
00:00:24.360 –> 00:00:27.000
Jacob Stoops: And yeah, that’s funny. We’re getting better.

8
00:00:27.240 –> 00:00:28.920
Jeff Louella: You’re getting better. And now I’m trying to figure it out.

9
00:00:29.730 –> 00:00:34.770
Jacob Stoops: And we are also joined by Casie Gillette, how’s it going, Casie.

10
00:00:35.040 –> 00:00:38.820
Casie Gillette: Hey, howdy, I think you’re too old time reference might be overlooked.

11
00:00:42.030 –> 00:00:43.260
Casie Gillette: Cast. Yeah.

12
00:00:44.190 –> 00:00:46.260
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, Jeff reminds of Al Borland

13
00:00:46.920 –> 00:00:48.210
Jeff Louella: Yeah, his

14
00:00:48.240 –> 00:00:49.980
Jacob Stoops: Side hobbies, and he’s do-gooder.

15
00:00:50.430 –> 00:00:50.640
Yeah.

16
00:00:52.770 –> 00:00:53.520
Jeff Louella: Just like out

17
00:00:53.640 –> 00:01:10.380
Jacob Stoops: Um, so, Casie is the Senior Director of digital at KoMarketing and is really awesome guests. I’ve said this, I think, to a few guests. So I don’t want you to feel like you’re not at all special because you are special and

18
00:01:10.650 –> 00:01:11.610
Casie Gillette: You sound like my mother.

19
00:01:11.820 –> 00:01:12.540
Right.

20
00:01:13.590 –> 00:01:14.520
Jeff Louella: Very special

21
00:01:14.970 –> 00:01:24.750
Jacob Stoops: But know when we were setting out to when I was setting out over a year ago to do this podcast. And when we kind of sat down for for season two.

22
00:01:25.350 –> 00:01:35.940
Jacob Stoops: You are definitely on the on the list of people that we wanted to talk to in in there’s a there’s a massive like we basically want to talk to everybody in SEO, but but

23
00:01:35.970 –> 00:01:38.070
Casie Gillette: It does really, really making me feel good here.

24
00:01:40.440 –> 00:01:41.370
We’re definitely

25
00:01:42.480 –> 00:01:46.620
Casie Gillette: I made Season two. That’s exciting. Thank you for having me. Yes. You made it to season to

26
00:01:46.860 –> 00:01:48.330
Jeff Louella: Meet you in

27
00:01:48.360 –> 00:01:54.900
Jacob Stoops: Season Season one was entirely just me trying to figure figure stuff out live on the internet. So anyways,

28
00:01:55.680 –> 00:01:58.290
Casie Gillette: That’s our job. That’s our job is search marketers anyway.

29
00:01:58.530 –> 00:02:07.920
Jacob Stoops: Well, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s basically 25 hours of me just gabbing gabbing online and I decided to bring Jeff in to talk with me so

30
00:02:08.430 –> 00:02:09.240
Jeff Louella: Just for my intro

31
00:02:09.840 –> 00:02:10.470
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

32
00:02:10.500 –> 00:02:12.840
Jacob Stoops: Yeah. So in terms of what we’re going to be

33
00:02:12.840 –> 00:02:26.010
Jacob Stoops: Covering today. So we’ve got a great agenda, first and foremost, we’re going to talk to. Casie about her background and then we are going to cover a little bit of SEO news, surprise, surprise, there was another kerfuffle in the industry.

34
00:02:26.550 –> 00:02:31.980
Jacob Stoops: Always industry seems to always have a kerfuffle probably once or twice a week.

35
00:02:32.730 –> 00:02:39.420
Jacob Stoops: That will talk about a little bit of drama and then at the end of the show. If anybody has stuck around to the end.

36
00:02:39.960 –> 00:02:48.240
Jacob Stoops: We’re going to talk about building a team and SEO training and how to go about that and the importance of doing that.

37
00:02:49.200 –> 00:03:11.550
Jacob Stoops: So definitely, definitely a great agenda today so Casie, the hallmark of the show, kind of like we’re superheroes is the the origin story of great SEOs and the the backgrounds, the trials. The tribulations. Um, so tell us about yourself. How did you get into SEO and just, who are you

38
00:03:11.820 –> 00:03:24.930
Casie Gillette: Yeah, loaded question. Um, you know, I was one of those people who didn’t know what SEO was we didn’t know what it was in 2005 I’d never heard of it. You know, I was out of college, I was bartending.

39
00:03:25.380 –> 00:03:31.200
Casie Gillette: thought, gosh, I guess I should probably get a job in marketing. My parents paid a lot of money for my college education.

40
00:03:31.920 –> 00:03:44.760
Casie Gillette: And a guy that I knew that that I had just met through the bar had approached me about this job in marketing. I was like okay well what it ended up being was. It was an online dating site.

41
00:03:45.210 –> 00:03:55.200
Casie Gillette: And but this is 2005 so like online dating wasn’t really a thing. And what we had to do was go out to clubs and hand out flyers for

42
00:03:56.220 –> 00:04:03.930
Casie Gillette: Dating site, which is awful. Right. That’s just an awful job but fast forward about six months I had stopped doing that, after

43
00:04:04.410 –> 00:04:14.610
Casie Gillette: Month, I think. And he reached back out and said, Hey, I have this job. We have another job doing SEO. Are you interested. And I said, I don’t know what that is but sure.

44
00:04:15.330 –> 00:04:28.230
Casie Gillette: And that was it. You know, I was so fortunate because the company that I ended up working for at the time was huge. They were about 150 people in it had people like Jenni Halas and Garrett French and Andy Beal

45
00:04:28.890 –> 00:04:31.470
Casie Gillette: These people in JP Sherman these people that you know

46
00:04:32.460 –> 00:04:42.090
Casie Gillette: As these you know industry thought leaders. Well, that’s where they also started out. So I had these amazing people to train me and to teach me. You know what SEO is and

47
00:04:42.690 –> 00:04:56.520
Casie Gillette: I think like most of us, I just fell in love, you know, you start doing it like, Wow, this is this is exciting and it changes and that’s cool. And, you know, here we are 1314 years later, whatever year it is. Now, I don’t know.

48
00:04:57.660 –> 00:04:59.400
Jacob Stoops: I hear that it’s going to be 2020

49
00:04:59.580 –> 00:05:00.420
Jacob Stoops: Oh, that’s

50
00:05:01.770 –> 00:05:04.020
Jacob Stoops: A new decade or still the same decade people

51
00:05:04.020 –> 00:05:04.410
Jacob Stoops: Yeah.

52
00:05:04.470 –> 00:05:06.210
Casie Gillette: No, no, it’s tricky.

53
00:05:06.600 –> 00:05:14.850
Jacob Stoops: So how did you get to KoMarketing and not only then, how did you kind of climb the ladder to senior director

54
00:05:15.150 –> 00:05:17.280
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, just run

55
00:05:18.930 –> 00:05:24.330
Casie Gillette: I had when I was down in Carolina. I was ready to move up, back, back up north. I was like, I gotta South here.

56
00:05:24.900 –> 00:05:34.980
Casie Gillette: So I applied to a job at KoMarketing actually and I just, I loved what I loved what they had to offer. Well, at the time, there were only three other people

57
00:05:35.430 –> 00:05:46.860
Casie Gillette: So I ended up moving up here. There were four of us in total just really small, which was so fun. You know, it was a whole new experience. I went from this big company to a very small company.

58
00:05:47.400 –> 00:05:58.050
Casie Gillette: And that was really exciting. Now that happened around 2009 2007 2008 right before the economy collapsed.

59
00:05:58.770 –> 00:06:05.370
Casie Gillette: And you know, we started to lose a lot of client, right, we just didn’t have a lot of business and I was approached to go in house.

60
00:06:06.180 –> 00:06:09.930
Casie Gillette: Start, you know, start an SEO team there help run the digital marketing team and so

61
00:06:10.230 –> 00:06:15.210
Casie Gillette: I went and did that for a couple years. And that was really cool. I never thought that I would want to go and house because

62
00:06:15.480 –> 00:06:20.550
Casie Gillette: You know when you’re on the agency side. It’s so fun right there. There’s all these different things always happening.

63
00:06:21.120 –> 00:06:32.640
Casie Gillette: But the opportunity was really great. You know, I got exposure to like running TV ads and radio ads, you know, building a social team building a community team so that stuff was really fun.

64
00:06:33.720 –> 00:06:41.010
Casie Gillette: But I stayed in touch with the marketing guys because they were so fantastic. In a few years into that they said, you know, do you want to come back.

65
00:06:42.630 –> 00:06:50.430
Casie Gillette: I don’t know. And, you know, Derek, who, who runs KoMarketing was like, well, moving the office downtown. I was like okay now I’m listening.

66
00:06:52.020 –> 00:07:02.130
Casie Gillette: You know, I live in the city. And I always had to drive out there and my whole dream of moving to Boston was I didn’t have to have a car and I didn’t have to drive. Anyway, so he was making my dream come true.

67
00:07:02.520 –> 00:07:03.090
Jacob Stoops: There it is.

68
00:07:03.690 –> 00:07:10.350
Casie Gillette: Yeah, so I mean that’s, you know, I’ve kinda, you know, I’ve been at KoMarketing twice. Now, I’ve been back seven years. So a total of 10

69
00:07:11.880 –> 00:07:26.850
Casie Gillette: And you know, it’s just, it’s been fun to watch. It’s been fun to help grow the company, the guys who run it are fantastic. We have such great people on the team. We’re really meticulous about who we hire and how we hire and I think because of that we’ve been able to be successful.

70
00:07:27.930 –> 00:07:39.390
Jacob Stoops: So I’m going to apologize in advance because I’m, what I’m hearing is so you were at KoMarketing in then went in house somewhere and then back to KoMarketing.

71
00:07:39.390 –> 00:07:39.960
Casie Gillette: Correct.

72
00:07:40.020 –> 00:07:44.010
Jacob Stoops: Okay, because I was thinking I was like wait, you’re at KoMarketing, but you’re also in house.

73
00:07:44.160 –> 00:07:46.770
Casie Gillette: Yeah, I’m very to I’m multitasking. Yeah.

74
00:07:46.800 –> 00:07:58.980
Jacob Stoops: OK, so the, it seems like the first time you were doing a lot of off offline TV and radio and and then a little dabbling in in the social space and

75
00:08:00.000 –> 00:08:07.530
Jacob Stoops: I guess what is so different outside of being downtown different this time in terms of like your role.

76
00:08:07.800 –> 00:08:20.250
Casie Gillette: Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that was really exciting to me was I got to come in and build a team. And that’s honestly one of my absolute favorite things about my role about this industry.

77
00:08:21.000 –> 00:08:28.170
Casie Gillette: You know, I do a lot of speaking events. And the reason is, I love that part. Like I just love when someone comes up to you and says,

78
00:08:28.500 –> 00:08:34.440
Casie Gillette: I’ve never thought about this this way or like, Oh, this is so helpful or, you know, you write a blog posts and someone says,

79
00:08:34.800 –> 00:08:41.310
Casie Gillette: Oh, I use that and I sent it to my team like it makes you feel like, okay, I’m doing this for a reason.

80
00:08:41.940 –> 00:08:52.740
Casie Gillette: You know, there’s a rewarding element to it. And as part of coming back. My role here was to build a team who you know we got, I get to teach them SEO. I get to teach them marketing.

81
00:08:53.370 –> 00:08:59.700
Casie Gillette: And you get to watch them all grow up and become really good marketers and I love that. I think that’s really fun and exciting.

82
00:09:03.120 –> 00:09:11.370
Jacob Stoops: So have to ask always have to ask this comes up, like every episode, I’m in house or agency.

83
00:09:12.030 –> 00:09:14.610
Casie Gillette: So I am an agency girl.

84
00:09:16.260 –> 00:09:31.200
Casie Gillette: I do have to say like there are benefits of being in house one a lot easier. You know you you’ve talked to people who work at agencies I. In fact, I remember when I was coming back to the agency world and

85
00:09:32.700 –> 00:09:35.040
Casie Gillette: I know it’s like, well, how could she

86
00:09:37.080 –> 00:09:46.860
Casie Gillette: Like, why don’t you do with clients, but I don’t know like I don’t know about you guys, but I love the challenge, right. I feel like there’s always new challenges and like

87
00:09:47.130 –> 00:09:58.590
Casie Gillette: When you’re in house you’re only exposed to a minimal amount of things, whereas on the agency side, you know, I have 10 clients. And so I’m seeing all of these different situations.

88
00:09:59.130 –> 00:10:13.350
Casie Gillette: Just the learning element in the space. We have to keep up. You have to be constantly learning. And I think at the agency side, you get a little more exposure to that because you do have the different things. So for me, if agency, but I certainly understand why people like being in house.

89
00:10:14.040 –> 00:10:18.780
Jeff Louella: Do you ever feel that you can’t get everything you want to get done.

90
00:10:18.900 –> 00:10:19.440
Oh, yeah.

91
00:10:20.550 –> 00:10:21.210
Casie Gillette: Yeah.

92
00:10:21.420 –> 00:10:26.850
Jeff Louella: We have a set amount of hours where, you know, not sure what that is but you know every

93
00:10:26.850 –> 00:10:27.960
Jeff Louella: Client is different, but

94
00:10:28.620 –> 00:10:35.880
Jeff Louella: They’re my I’ve always been an agency. I’ve never been in house and the one thing I always dreamed about was actually being able to just

95
00:10:36.450 –> 00:10:43.950
Jeff Louella: Sit there and like being internal meetings and hammer own like I have one client who’s blocking right now blocking Google

96
00:10:44.940 –> 00:10:57.060
Jeff Louella: And and they have been for the last six weeks and their dev teams like, well, we’re just trying to block acts like during the holidays, they’re blocking extra crawlers coming to the site because they’re so fragile.

97
00:10:57.570 –> 00:10:58.440
Jeff Louella: So sad.

98
00:10:58.800 –> 00:11:06.660
Jeff Louella: And I just wish I can be in those meetings every day and showing them and I do send reports as don’t know if it gets to the dev team because I’m working with marketing team and

99
00:11:07.020 –> 00:11:17.100
Jeff Louella: The thing. So sometimes I do dream about being in a house, but, um, but, as you said, like we have 10 different clients. So I just focus my time. Other places where I need it but

100
00:11:17.400 –> 00:11:23.760
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well, and I also found that, you know, working in house was cool because it’s like, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I’m just gonna go do it.

101
00:11:24.270 –> 00:11:34.500
Casie Gillette: And if you have that autonomy. That’s fantastic. But I was there for three years. And so, and thankfully I did have three different websites that I was working on. But like

102
00:11:34.860 –> 00:11:45.960
Casie Gillette: If you’re only working on, let’s say one website. And it’s not like a giant e com site. It’s just a, you know, maybe it’s a B2B site, whatever it is, like, there’s only so much you can do.

103
00:11:46.230 –> 00:11:46.560
Jeff Louella: Yeah.

104
00:11:46.590 –> 00:11:56.850
Casie Gillette: There’s only so much for me. I started to get a little bored and it was nice because like I said I got exposure to these other things, but it can get a little enough. Yes.

105
00:11:57.510 –> 00:12:08.160
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I’m sure. I think like you, like you said, You’re an agency girl, I think, like, I don’t know what it, what it is, but I feel like it’s just

106
00:12:08.970 –> 00:12:15.000
Jacob Stoops: bred into your personality in terms of which side of the fence you you fall on

107
00:12:15.510 –> 00:12:24.690
Jacob Stoops: Some people tend to lean in house. Some people tend to lean agency for different reasons I’ve said many times I’ve been in both situations and

108
00:12:25.110 –> 00:12:41.310
Jacob Stoops: For whatever reason, I just tend to thrive more in the agency lifestyle as crazy as it is, it can get. Sometimes I’ve been in house, a couple of times. And each time I, I just, I really didn’t like it.

109
00:12:42.420 –> 00:12:50.130
Jacob Stoops: Made me. It was a function of just the particular opportunities and what was going on in house at the time.

110
00:12:51.000 –> 00:13:04.080
Jacob Stoops: But there have been times in my agency life where I’m I think just like Jeff like man, the grass looks really, really green, it would be great just to just to work on one web

111
00:13:04.530 –> 00:13:13.470
Jacob Stoops: All the time and do it really, really, really well. And then you get on the you get on the in house side and you’re like, Okay, I’m working on this.

112
00:13:14.730 –> 00:13:16.890
Jacob Stoops: And now what do I do with the rest of my time.

113
00:13:16.890 –> 00:13:17.850
Casie Gillette: Right, but

114
00:13:18.390 –> 00:13:29.010
Jacob Stoops: It is nice to be able to like have in developed close relationships with a lot of different stakeholders within the, within the company like it’s nice to

115
00:13:29.670 –> 00:13:37.170
Jacob Stoops: For example, in my last last role, I was able to just get up and walk two desks over and say, hey,

116
00:13:37.770 –> 00:13:49.770
Jacob Stoops: Aaron, who was a developer, like I’m trying to get this thing implemented, but like, I’m seeing this error and he would fix it on the spot and go okay great that’ll get pushed live tonight and stuff like that was

117
00:13:50.370 –> 00:13:57.870
Jacob Stoops: Invaluable. And not only that, but just walking down to to another floor to talk with one of the other teams.

118
00:13:58.260 –> 00:14:09.720
Jacob Stoops: And get an understanding because they handled customers directly and like working directly with them. I mean, there were a couple of times where we work directly with them to actually create pieces of content.

119
00:14:09.840 –> 00:14:11.220
Jacob Stoops: Yeah subject matter.

120
00:14:12.480 –> 00:14:18.390
Casie Gillette: That’s like one of my favorite things I talked about that a lot is like when I was in house we talked to the customer support team every week.

121
00:14:18.780 –> 00:14:29.220
Casie Gillette: Right. And it was so awesome. Knowing here’s what people are asking for. Here’s what they can’t find like here’s what the second yeah so that there are those benefits. Yeah, but

122
00:14:29.580 –> 00:14:40.110
Jacob Stoops: Like I said, I just, I made for agency. I like the I like the challenge. I like the diversity and I feel as if

123
00:14:41.520 –> 00:14:44.130
Jacob Stoops: The competition with other agencies.

124
00:14:45.480 –> 00:14:51.420
Jacob Stoops: In addition to the competition with your clients and their competitors. Yeah, really.

125
00:14:51.750 –> 00:15:00.480
Jacob Stoops: Really drives me. I come from a sports background so I’m super competitive and not to say that if you don’t come from other backgrounds. You’re not competitive, but I feel like for me that’s

126
00:15:00.870 –> 00:15:08.100
Jacob Stoops: Plays plays into it. So like I i like to win. And for me, I can see is giving me the best chance to kind of

127
00:15:09.510 –> 00:15:11.100
Jacob Stoops: Scratch that competitive edge.

128
00:15:11.190 –> 00:15:13.140
Casie Gillette: Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel.

129
00:15:14.340 –> 00:15:18.180
Jacob Stoops: So you do public speaking. What’s, what’s that look

130
00:15:19.410 –> 00:15:19.680
Casie Gillette: Like

131
00:15:21.270 –> 00:15:33.390
Casie Gillette: Well, no, it’s fun. Honestly, um, I don’t know. I don’t even remember how I got into it, or why, but I just know like once I was up there. I was like, oh yeah, this is for me.

132
00:15:34.890 –> 00:15:36.630
Casie Gillette: There’s just something to be said about

133
00:15:38.070 –> 00:15:50.940
Casie Gillette: You know, you’re being in front of your peers and having them listen. It makes you have to up your game. I never ever ever want to go to a conference and disappoint people

134
00:15:51.630 –> 00:16:03.690
Casie Gillette: And because of that, I think it’s really forced me to make sure that I’m talking about the right things. I’m learning the right things. I’m focused on the things I’m passionate about. I think that’s a huge one.

135
00:16:04.950 –> 00:16:16.110
Casie Gillette: When I first started speaking I talked about link building about a year into that. I was like, if I have to talk about link building one more time. I’m going to jump off the stage. Like, I can’t, I can’t talk about it anymore.

136
00:16:17.100 –> 00:16:26.970
Casie Gillette: But I needed to find something else that I was passionate about right and and also you have to find something that not everyone else is saying, although there’s a lot of it right

137
00:16:28.110 –> 00:16:36.540
Casie Gillette: That in the space, and I’m sure I’ve done it, too. But I just, I just love it. I love what the camaraderie of conferences.

138
00:16:36.960 –> 00:16:53.730
Casie Gillette: I will say that I have made some amazing friends through conferences that I go on vacation with now that I talked to you in real life that have become like close lifelong friends that are never would have gotten to do that without speaking. So it’s just fun. I just really like it.

139
00:16:54.540 –> 00:17:02.340
Jacob Stoops: Have you do you get nervous or you just one of those natural, natural because like I feel like it was

140
00:17:03.630 –> 00:17:15.120
Jacob Stoops: All a couple of couple of guests ago I can’t remember exactly who it was. Alicia or Leisha Anderson or Andrea Bergman, it was like, Nope, I just stepped right up there and it’s it’s easy.

141
00:17:15.180 –> 00:17:20.310
Casie Gillette: It’s nice. I get nervous. Yeah, there’s a moment not I’m not nervous like

142
00:17:21.120 –> 00:17:31.770
Casie Gillette: A day before I’m nervous for like that 20 minutes before, but the moment that I’m on the stage. It’s fine. Totally fine. Like the moment that I’m up there. Your adrenaline’s poverty, like, all right, I’m in

143
00:17:32.460 –> 00:17:37.620
Casie Gillette: And you can’t be nervous up there. So, but, yeah, there’s about I usually don’t eat before I can

144
00:17:39.030 –> 00:17:39.960
Casie Gillette: Just gotta go.

145
00:17:41.610 –> 00:17:42.270
Jacob Stoops: It. Go ahead, Jeff.

146
00:17:42.300 –> 00:17:46.590
Jeff Louella: I’ll just say I don’t speak a ton bone. I do. I usually start off with the dad joke.

147
00:17:49.050 –> 00:17:54.270
Jeff Louella: When the crowd. As soon as I get them the laugh. And I’m like, all right, I’m good. But, but if they don’t laugh. I’m like, Oh, no.

148
00:17:57.780 –> 00:17:58.980
Jeff Louella: Luckily I’m so good. They always

149
00:18:00.240 –> 00:18:02.190
Jeff Louella: Get the greatest dad. Exactly.

150
00:18:03.030 –> 00:18:10.980
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, I have this I have this thing and it’s sometimes applies to speaking, but mostly singing in public, where

151
00:18:12.690 –> 00:18:29.250
Jacob Stoops: It’s literally like, like you said 20 minutes before I’m set to like go on and go on. It’s not like I sing in like these massive arenas or anything. My wife and I sing it a benefit concert every, every color. Yeah, yeah, it is cool.

152
00:18:30.450 –> 00:18:43.920
Jacob Stoops: But even as small as the as the venue is I have this thing where, when I go on for about the 20 minutes before and even sometimes as

153
00:18:44.850 –> 00:18:55.530
Jacob Stoops: As close to performing as literally like the song comes on and I’m about three seconds from having to open my mouth. Forget all the lyrics, they just go out of my head.

154
00:18:55.980 –> 00:19:10.290
Jacob Stoops: Really, yeah. Yeah, it’s like a complete blackout really like scary because like there are times when I’m standing out there. And all I’m thinking is not how well I need to sing more like what do I say

155
00:19:10.350 –> 00:19:11.640
Casie Gillette: What am I even thinking

156
00:19:11.880 –> 00:19:21.960
Jacob Stoops: What am I singing and then then the music comes on and I’m still I’m starting to panic. Now, like Panic, panic. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. And then finally,

157
00:19:22.950 –> 00:19:32.190
Jacob Stoops: I remember like it was yesterday. I opened my mouth words came out and they were the right words and I went along by I went along my merry way and

158
00:19:32.670 –> 00:19:49.350
Jacob Stoops: For anybody that has that kind of public phobia. The idea of public speaking can be nauseating like nauseating. So I guess what advice would you give to people that struggle with the idea of getting up in front of their peers.

159
00:19:49.500 –> 00:20:00.630
Casie Gillette: Well, what I was gonna say was, I mean what you just talked about is just the benefit of muscle memory, right, like we talked about practicing. I know there’s people who will say, like, you know, I don’t practice my presentations. I do.

160
00:20:01.020 –> 00:20:05.190
Casie Gillette: I run through them like you know me I don’t I try not to go, word for word, but like

161
00:20:05.580 –> 00:20:20.250
Casie Gillette: I run through that thing 20 times because I want to know that when I get out there that if something goes wrong, right, if I can’t see my slides. If there’s technical errors or whatever’s going on, you know, whether it’s fear or whatever that I still know my materials.

162
00:20:21.450 –> 00:20:29.370
Casie Gillette: But one of the things we do here is we start getting people like some of the trainings that we do involve people giving presentations.

163
00:20:29.760 –> 00:20:35.760
Casie Gillette: Because you’re only in front of maybe five people or 10 people or whatever it is you start small.

164
00:20:36.300 –> 00:20:45.000
Casie Gillette: I tell anyone you know who’s looking to get into public speaking. Look at a local event like I started just doing word camps that were here in Boston.

165
00:20:45.480 –> 00:21:02.220
Casie Gillette: Events like that, or just like local SEO meetups where you know people give you an opportunity new speakers, they’re expecting new speakers, where you don’t. They don’t care if you mess up, right. Those are the things that that for me, it’s like know your material and start small.

166
00:21:04.350 –> 00:21:12.990
Jeff Louella: You have done a couple when I used to live in Philadelphia and we had a pretty vibrant SEO Meetup group. They’re called SEO grill and

167
00:21:13.500 –> 00:21:21.270
Jeff Louella: I got to speak there a couple times and I do small events. A lot of times I used to run a homebrew club making beer.

168
00:21:21.960 –> 00:21:30.150
Jeff Louella: So I would I would do presentation. Yeah, you know, a it was funny when I decided to start a club. I was like, I don’t want to do work after work.

169
00:21:30.930 –> 00:21:40.650
Jeff Louella: And I enjoyed the air and me, my friends who started brewing were like, you know, we want to meet other people to do it. And then we started a club and then that grew to 300 people

170
00:21:40.950 –> 00:21:46.920
Jeff Louella: My guy, and it was insane. Like we were just at this one bar on the Tuesday night would just be packed to the gills.

171
00:21:47.580 –> 00:22:03.030
Jeff Louella: The guy would never have any traffic on the Tuesday night before, and so it was a good time. But from there. I learned a lot of just, again, if you know your material like if I talked about SEO or if I talked about home brewing, I can. I don’t need slides, I can just talk about it, but

172
00:22:04.530 –> 00:22:10.530
Jeff Louella: But yeah, when you’re in front of a bunch of people, it can be be scary. So, but where did you get from like

173
00:22:12.090 –> 00:22:19.380
Jeff Louella: The confidence. You know, you start off bartending. You’re saying, and then now 10 years later, you’re in stage, you know, Mosque on

174
00:22:20.640 –> 00:22:26.100
Jeff Louella: And then there’s many of us who’ve been doing SEO just as long. And, you know, haven’t gotten past the meetup groups.

175
00:22:26.160 –> 00:22:27.570
Jeff Louella: Yeah, so

176
00:22:27.960 –> 00:22:41.310
Casie Gillette: Honestly, I again I’ve just been really lucky, like the support of the community, I would say. So even when I first started doing like I did an SMS show and it I

177
00:22:41.970 –> 00:22:49.380
Casie Gillette: One of the benefits. I was working in house right and I do think there’s a benefit when you’re in house that if you’re looking to speak, they’re more open to having you right

178
00:22:49.500 –> 00:22:50.820
Jeff Louella: Now big brand behind. Yes.

179
00:22:50.880 –> 00:23:00.030
Casie Gillette: Yep. And so that was really helpful. But at that show I met a couple people, you know, Elizabeth awesome Alaska who worked for third door for a long time. Greg Finn.

180
00:23:00.600 –> 00:23:10.590
Casie Gillette: There, people who just became my friends, but they also were these huge support systems. And so they were encouraging me to start writing for Search Engine Land. Right. So they got me doing that.

181
00:23:11.280 –> 00:23:23.100
Casie Gillette: You know, they would encourage they would help me with my pitches. Right. So I’ve just been really lucky I think in that the people that I have surrounded myself with or gotten to know have all been so supportive

182
00:23:23.790 –> 00:23:28.620
Casie Gillette: You know, even I was doing. I got invited to do search love one year in London.

183
00:23:29.100 –> 00:23:37.440
Casie Gillette: And a friend of mine, Aaron Friedman, who I had met through another show like we spent the night before our sessions just practicing with one another.

184
00:23:37.860 –> 00:23:42.900
Casie Gillette: And so, those kinds of things. Just, just really help. I don’t know. I’m not a shy person.

185
00:23:43.860 –> 00:23:55.530
Casie Gillette: I think that that makes the biggest difference is I know people in the industry will talk about, you know, I’m very introverted, or I’m very extroverted like I am an extrovert. I just very much am I enjoy being around people.

186
00:23:56.280 –> 00:24:08.400
Casie Gillette: I like conferences, I’d like being in crowds. So that part I think certainly helps because you know when you’re just out there just being loud, like I am. I don’t know if that helps or not, but

187
00:24:09.450 –> 00:24:25.830
Jacob Stoops: Funny. My wife is exactly like that, and I am. She is like the type of person that never met a person that she couldn’t talk to and like immediately make them like her, and be her friend and I am like, I’m a nice person, but I am

188
00:24:26.550 –> 00:24:35.550
Jacob Stoops: The opposite where like when I get into big crowds situations. It makes me like twitchy uncomfortable super uncomfortable.

189
00:24:36.840 –> 00:24:40.230
Jacob Stoops: Which is the yeah I then find it odd that I choose to do a

190
00:24:40.500 –> 00:24:42.300
Casie Gillette: Podcast right out there.

191
00:24:42.570 –> 00:24:51.780
Casie Gillette: Talking to people. I mean, I will say this, like, I don’t love I’ll be the first to say that I don’t love networking events like where you’re just with a whole bunch of strangers, but like

192
00:24:52.140 –> 00:24:59.100
Casie Gillette: I just like myself up for it. So you just, I just get mentally prepared and then you’re just you’re in, you know, I’m fine. Once I’m in it, but

193
00:25:00.900 –> 00:25:02.460
Jeff Louella: Yeah, I mean, it was tough moving like

194
00:25:03.540 –> 00:25:09.570
Jeff Louella: I know you. It seems like you’ve moved around a little bit, but I lived in Philadelphia for 42 years

195
00:25:09.990 –> 00:25:17.040
Jeff Louella: Wow started to move to Atlanta and pick up the family and move and it was really tough for my wife at first.

196
00:25:17.520 –> 00:25:26.280
Jeff Louella: But she is that type of person to you can put her in a room, she starts chatting with people and I think she’s actually impressed herself with how she can. She’s like 1000 friends now.

197
00:25:27.300 –> 00:25:30.180
Jeff Louella: And and the ones in there going, like I have a couple people. I kind of talk to you.

198
00:25:31.620 –> 00:25:37.350
Jeff Louella: I’m still I’m like texts with my friends back home, but it’s and she’s out every night, so it’s it’s interesting how

199
00:25:37.350 –> 00:25:37.800
Casie Gillette: I

200
00:25:37.950 –> 00:25:41.010
Jeff Louella: Put yourself in that position, and then you can like, get out there. Yeah.

201
00:25:41.190 –> 00:25:43.320
Jacob Stoops: You don’t it, Jeff, you’ll have a few more friends.

202
00:25:43.650 –> 00:25:45.660
Jeff Louella: Yeah. That’s what the internet’s great

203
00:25:48.270 –> 00:25:56.190
Jacob Stoops: So Casie, what are some of the biggest challenges that you run into operating in the agency world.

204
00:25:57.150 –> 00:26:12.870
Casie Gillette: Um, I mean, I do think, you know, it just thinking about the team, you know, thinking about hiring. It’s so competitive right now, you know, especially, you know, we’re a smaller agency. There’s a little under 30 a few of like 30 of us.

205
00:26:13.920 –> 00:26:21.720
Casie Gillette: And when you’re trying to hire that like 123 years person. It is like just a battle.

206
00:26:22.320 –> 00:26:28.650
Casie Gillette: Axe and especially here in Boston, where there’s a ton of companies and a ton of tech companies and even just a ton of agencies, right.

207
00:26:28.890 –> 00:26:38.100
Casie Gillette: A lot of the big digital, you know, the big agencies, you have like digital us and you know those places who are now trying to get in the game, and they’re willing to pay a lot more

208
00:26:38.430 –> 00:26:43.650
Casie Gillette: To have those 123 years like I think hiring has certainly been a challenge. And we’ve been really lucky.

209
00:26:44.370 –> 00:26:51.060
Casie Gillette: Make our team is amazing. We’ve been able to get some really good people in, but then you have people who are constantly recruiting them away.

210
00:26:51.960 –> 00:26:56.070
Casie Gillette: So it’s like a battle. It’s like such a battle right now from that perspective.

211
00:26:57.000 –> 00:27:09.780
Casie Gillette: But then you have clients and you know to Geoff’s point earlier, there’s only so much time right there’s only so much time, you only have so many resources. I have a client right now that I adore. I love them to death.

212
00:27:10.800 –> 00:27:21.930
Casie Gillette: Unfortunately, when the search results changed in June with that big update. They weren’t penalized. But what happened was the search results themselves shifted so much

213
00:27:22.290 –> 00:27:30.870
Casie Gillette: That they went from being in you know the position one at the top of the page that didn’t have a lot of elements to now they’re

214
00:27:31.260 –> 00:27:43.620
Casie Gillette: In position to be ahead of them are now sponsored products and a map and the Knowledge Graph and people also asked box and so their traffic just tanked. And when you see that like

215
00:27:44.070 –> 00:27:55.290
Casie Gillette: It’s just gut wrenching because, you know, like I’m doing everything I can to help this client, but I can’t get them back there, right, like unless those search results change like I can’t get them back there.

216
00:27:55.980 –> 00:28:01.650
Casie Gillette: So that stuff is is just, it’s so challenging and frustrating because you have these clients that you love and you want to help them but

217
00:28:01.980 –> 00:28:12.450
Casie Gillette: Sometimes you just have to say like we have to change our, we have to change our strategy right and i mean like a complete one need to change our strategy. So I think that that’s a tough one.

218
00:28:13.170 –> 00:28:25.650
Jeff Louella: I mean it’s tougher all these days with Google putting so many other elements on the page. Besides that, besides just organic and it is surprising. Sometimes when I still do well. And there are other things on that page.

219
00:28:26.370 –> 00:28:33.090
Jeff Louella: But you know Google’s tracking all that, too. So they’re also going to be changing those features around a lot. Yeah. And I do

220
00:28:33.660 –> 00:28:37.050
Jeff Louella: You know, I think it’s really important to start spreading out into other mediums.

221
00:28:37.470 –> 00:28:46.200
Jeff Louella: Cuz you’re going to have video links are going to have image links and it’s like if we don’t optimize our images or maybe add videos like those are areas we can get to

222
00:28:46.560 –> 00:28:56.670
Jeff Louella: I think figuring out a track it all is another aspect. Um, but, but one of those is like there’s gonna be 10 listings above you, that are just not organic. And how do we get into those listings

223
00:28:56.940 –> 00:28:59.670
Casie Gillette: Right, and even, like, you know, for that same client. I mean,

224
00:29:00.090 –> 00:29:11.520
Casie Gillette: One of the first things we did. We’re like, All right, let’s get like FAQ schema on the site right like they have FAQs the search results are showing FAQs. Like, let’s get this up. Let’s test it. Let’s see what that can do so.

225
00:29:11.730 –> 00:29:24.780
Casie Gillette: We’re really trying everything we can think of here to help with that. But sometimes you know there’s there’s only so much that we can do. But yeah, I love your like, but like you have to diversify. Some people just don’t want to hear that, though.

226
00:29:25.590 –> 00:29:34.050
Jeff Louella: Yeah, and it’s hard to diversify. Right. I mean, one reason when Jacob asked me to come on to the podcast was like something I always wanted to do, but I know it’s a lot of work to do it.

227
00:29:34.560 –> 00:29:39.780
Jeff Louella: And it’s like there’s a whole bunch of new algorithms. I got to learn because it’s like to get your, you know, a podcast even

228
00:29:40.170 –> 00:29:50.730
Jeff Louella: Show up like it’s learning right it’s like you on iTunes. We don’t show up yet. But there’s ones out there that haven’t been talked like having the three episodes and haven’t been uploaded in 10 years entered like number four.

229
00:29:51.810 –> 00:29:58.140
Jeff Louella: It’s like why so that’s not the that’s not Google. I feel like if it was Google. I don’t understand it but

230
00:29:58.170 –> 00:29:58.530
Yeah.

231
00:29:59.880 –> 00:30:01.740
Jeff Louella: Exactly so. So

232
00:30:01.830 –> 00:30:13.860
Jacob Stoops: When people don’t want to hear it. How do you approach that because I feel like I’ve said it like 80 million times the implementation, especially on the agency side is our biggest problem and then

233
00:30:14.400 –> 00:30:31.800
Jacob Stoops: Changing hearts and hearts and minds and figuring out from a psychological perspective, what can you do or say to get people to kind of come around to your understanding of a situation or the reality of situation, how do you, how do you go about that.

234
00:30:32.100 –> 00:30:39.600
Casie Gillette: I mean, one thing that I take a lot of pride in. And that, you know, specifically here at KoMarketing is like we have really good relationships with our clients.

235
00:30:40.140 –> 00:30:50.910
Casie Gillette: You know, I have a client that I’ve worked with since I started here and she’s like her fifth organization and she just brings us with her everywhere she goes, it’s so awesome.

236
00:30:51.930 –> 00:31:00.510
Casie Gillette: But because of those relationships we are able to be very direct about it, right, like, one of the things that I really do pride myself in is

237
00:31:00.810 –> 00:31:06.330
Casie Gillette: I’m not. I’m never gonna lie to my clients right so like that example that I told you where search results shifted

238
00:31:06.690 –> 00:31:15.270
Casie Gillette: You know, I said like, look, we can keep trying to get back, we can keep trying to get back for this keyword all you want, but unless this changes.

239
00:31:15.600 –> 00:31:22.980
Casie Gillette: There’s nothing that we’re going to be able to do. But here’s the data that shows here are the other things that we can do right so

240
00:31:23.640 –> 00:31:32.160
Casie Gillette: In fact, one of the one of the girls who works here put together this sheet yesterday, this data set for this client that specifically looks at their competitors.

241
00:31:32.610 –> 00:31:35.040
Casie Gillette: We’ve been trying to get them to do a couple things.

242
00:31:35.910 –> 00:31:48.660
Casie Gillette: They’ve been a little bit hesitant to do it. She pulled all this data that’s competitive data search volume data like potential revenue data that now we take that and we present to them like here’s the actual financial impact of doing this.

243
00:31:49.260 –> 00:31:54.720
Casie Gillette: And I think that helps the one thing I always tell people I’m like just show them competition just show them their competitors.

244
00:31:55.110 –> 00:32:04.020
Casie Gillette: Like, especially when you’re talking to the C suite. If you show them like here’s what your competitors are doing. They absolutely are always like, Well, why aren’t we doing that.

245
00:32:05.250 –> 00:32:18.030
Casie Gillette: So I do think that helps is, you know, just just being honest and direct, you know, using the data you have, and, you know, if you can get buy in from from the upper level that that goes such a long way.

246
00:32:19.110 –> 00:32:25.080
Jacob Stoops: Do you find that they believe their data or the data that you provide them.

247
00:32:25.200 –> 00:32:33.780
Casie Gillette: I do it. But, you know, the one thing I do like is I think our clients are very smart. That’s actually something that’s changed that’s gone wrong.

248
00:32:38.970 –> 00:32:40.470
Jacob Stoops: Like I wanted to rewind that the

249
00:32:42.390 –> 00:32:50.550
Casie Gillette: The one thing that has definitely shifted over the past, you know, seven years, specifically for me being here is our contacts weren’t always

250
00:32:51.120 –> 00:33:10.890
Casie Gillette: Search savvy and now they are much more savvy when it comes to understanding SEO paid search, whatever it is. So our clients, not only they will question the data if it’s if it’s wrong, or if they have questions, but they understand it. And I think that is really, really helpful.

251
00:33:11.220 –> 00:33:14.910
Jacob Stoops: What do you think is led to that higher degree of understanding

252
00:33:15.390 –> 00:33:17.310
Casie Gillette: I mean, I think, just as the guy was so much more well known.

253
00:33:17.820 –> 00:33:30.420
Casie Gillette: Right. I mean, there’s still people who don’t necessarily know, but you know 10 years ago was like this little thing that maybe someone did. And it was such a niche. Whereas now, it’s a thing that they teach in college, which is amazing.

254
00:33:30.930 –> 00:33:34.740
Casie Gillette: But I think there’s just so much more awareness of it and people who who need to understand it.

255
00:33:35.130 –> 00:33:52.500
Jacob Stoops: You guys ever like I like even five years ago, I had never once on in like a traditional medium heard anybody like refer to SEO. So it was like the thing that I do for my living is like this super

256
00:33:53.160 –> 00:34:10.860
Jacob Stoops: Secret sort of thing to the to the public. And now, like I’m driving around done listening to in I’m in Columbus, so it’s 97 when the fan my sports radio and when you start to get the commercials in the ads there a company’s advertising SEO services. And I’m like,

257
00:34:11.880 –> 00:34:21.900
Jacob Stoops: Holy crap, this is becoming more mainstream whereas five years ago, like, no, you never saw it. I even today I’m ups. I’m upstairs and I’ve got a TV.

258
00:34:22.470 –> 00:34:35.580
Jacob Stoops: That can play I can play the YouTube and YouTube ad came on and it was for a digital marketing and SEO company. And I was like, well, about a year ago, I didn’t see much of that going that going on.

259
00:34:37.080 –> 00:34:39.990
Jacob Stoops: So you’re right it is becoming a little bit more, more.

260
00:34:40.350 –> 00:34:44.130
Casie Gillette: What we do it was on Jeopardy jeopardy. We’ve made it. Yeah.

261
00:34:44.880 –> 00:34:45.510
Jeff Louella: Yeah, one of my

262
00:34:45.600 –> 00:34:53.730
Jeff Louella: Favorite my favorite podcasts is a radio lab. And for the last two months or three months they they’ve been brought to you by wicks

263
00:34:54.180 –> 00:34:57.960
Jeff Louella: And all they’re talking about his mixes SEO capabilities.

264
00:34:58.470 –> 00:35:05.130
Jeff Louella: And I’m just like, oh, this is my favorite pocket. Like they their whole podcast is about like breaking things down. I wish they broke their average

265
00:35:08.490 –> 00:35:19.500
Jacob Stoops: Amy and knowing them, which just shelled out $25,000 to Marie Haines bolting like for winning the the wicks SEO contest and

266
00:35:19.500 –> 00:35:19.800
Jacob Stoops: Like

267
00:35:20.280 –> 00:35:28.650
Jacob Stoops: I was like holy shit if I didn’t know there were, there was 25 grand on the line, I would have been like, all right, I’m in. I let me let me get in there but

268
00:35:29.250 –> 00:35:40.170
Casie Gillette: I you know I appreciate it, that it goes to someone like her, though, who actually knows what she’s doing. Right. That, you know, I think she made a comment today, like, you know, she had eight people working on it for six months or something like

269
00:35:40.410 –> 00:35:48.600
Casie Gillette: But, you know, you see someone, it’s like okay this is a person that I know is smart. I know knows what they’re doing like better than some, you know, shady person.

270
00:35:49.110 –> 00:35:59.370
Jeff Louella: Yeah, well, when they ran a competition. Last year I know with a Patrick stocks, he like it was it came down to between him and someone else and

271
00:36:00.420 –> 00:36:11.940
Jeff Louella: You know, there was a lot of shady stuff going on on on some of those people were being bought and and and that was part of the rules and he couldn’t buy links so i know i don’t think Patrick was I think the guy who won.

272
00:36:12.330 –> 00:36:14.280
Casie Gillette: The other guy did yeah and it’s

273
00:36:14.640 –> 00:36:22.500
Jeff Louella: So it is an interesting thing. I give wicks credit because SEO is love like that again, there were competitive so

274
00:36:22.920 –> 00:36:23.850
Casie Gillette: That they’re on it to

275
00:36:24.450 –> 00:36:26.190
Jeff Louella: Totally like if we’re not in it. We’re crap.

276
00:36:27.630 –> 00:36:29.880
Jacob Stoops: I couldn’t believe the size of the font, though, man. I was like,

277
00:36:29.880 –> 00:36:30.270
Jeff Louella: That

278
00:36:30.360 –> 00:36:35.130
Jacob Stoops: You’re serious about this 25 G’s. Cool, man. So Jeff,

279
00:36:36.150 –> 00:36:37.710
Jacob Stoops: Let’s move to the next segment. What’s in

280
00:36:37.710 –> 00:36:38.250
Jeff Louella: Right.

281
00:36:38.370 –> 00:36:39.420
Jacob Stoops: Let’s get to the drama.

282
00:36:39.960 –> 00:36:49.530
Jeff Louella: Yes, more Twitter drama. So there was a post by think I’m gonna probably announce it will just say, Holly cuz she what’s her name on there but

283
00:36:49.860 –> 00:36:50.310
Jacob Stoops: I think you’re

284
00:36:50.910 –> 00:36:52.530
Jeff Louella: Blocked yeah girl Ziploc

285
00:36:52.950 –> 00:36:53.190
Yeah.

286
00:36:54.480 –> 00:37:02.160
Jeff Louella: But she pretty much came out and was saying in the first two pages of Google never surface any personal blogs or personal websites anymore.

287
00:37:03.330 –> 00:37:06.810
Jeff Louella: And everything it’s worthwhile like a question, you look at

288
00:37:08.220 –> 00:37:24.960
Jeff Louella: You know, it’s just being optimized bunch of bunch of SEO assholes. And that was a word to use, and I thought it was awesome. But at the same time right there was like you know as SEO assholes were kind of going out and saying there was a lot of different post out there so

289
00:37:26.580 –> 00:37:36.270
Jeff Louella: I know someone like Joe Hall, kind of like some of us aren’t assholes. And we took the time to learn the algorithms and stuff. And I think there was a lot of battle going back and forth between

290
00:37:37.410 –> 00:37:43.260
Jeff Louella: Is someone who is not so familiar with SEO and if I could see you know like you type in

291
00:37:44.010 –> 00:37:50.160
Jeff Louella: Anything and not anything but anything that’s like a probably a broader keyword. You can have a major company show up for it.

292
00:37:50.610 –> 00:38:02.820
Jeff Louella: Especially if it’s like something you’re trying to sell you know if you’re typing in iPhone or something like that. Like, you’re going to get a big brand, whether it’s apple or BestBuy or somebody there. And yes, they all have SEOs working for them.

293
00:38:04.350 –> 00:38:12.990
Jeff Louella: But it was the outrage was kind of interesting with it, where I mean john mule Mueller posted about it like you want to know what people thought

294
00:38:13.320 –> 00:38:22.500
Jeff Louella: You know bills. Yet all the big name as you guys out there, Bill slough ski, um, you know, there was an interesting conversation. I don’t know what your take, was it on

295
00:38:23.220 –> 00:38:37.620
Jeff Louella: Jacob, but it was really interesting kind of post between it because I really feel that, yes, there’s big brands out there. I think I understand why there’s big brands out there. I don’t think it’s anything. It could be. It’s not shady. It’s a grower trying to optimize for that.

296
00:38:38.910 –> 00:38:49.170
Jeff Louella: I do feel like there are some bad SEOs out there and they probably are doing bad things. But overall, we’re all trying to make our clients site more for the customers.

297
00:38:49.590 –> 00:38:55.770
Jeff Louella: And that’s why Google showing them over other people and that’s kind of what I feel that’s going on but I get her pain.

298
00:38:56.340 –> 00:39:08.790
Jeff Louella: Why, she’s, she’s like, if you don’t know that. And you’re just a blogger and you wonder why your blogs loss efforts traffic or isn’t getting the traffic. It means like, of course, you’re just gonna blame the people who specialize in that so

299
00:39:09.180 –> 00:39:13.860
Casie Gillette: I mean, at the same time, though, if you’re just realizing, like you’re so behind

300
00:39:13.920 –> 00:39:16.320
Casie Gillette: That’s why you’re not showing up anymore. Right. I

301
00:39:16.320 –> 00:39:16.740
Jeff Louella: Mean

302
00:39:17.130 –> 00:39:22.500
Casie Gillette: This started changing how many years ago, I personally don’t have any patience for that so

303
00:39:23.760 –> 00:39:30.930
Casie Gillette: I just don’t like one. I try to stay out of the SEO dramas, just like again I just other things that I’d like to do

304
00:39:32.190 –> 00:39:35.400
Casie Gillette: And usually it’s just people I think sometimes people like to argue

305
00:39:36.660 –> 00:39:38.100
Casie Gillette: I do think in one of the things I do

306
00:39:38.100 –> 00:39:51.660
Casie Gillette: Love about the SEO space and the people in it is that people are very protective of it right and it goes back to what we were just talking about were five years ago, people maybe didn’t know as much about SEO as they did. So I do think people are very

307
00:39:52.170 –> 00:40:05.970
Casie Gillette: protective of the Community as a whole, protective of what we do because we’ve always had to be a little bit defensive about it because let’s be real, like when I started the ship were doing was not like well as shady. Right. You’re just buying links and

308
00:40:06.480 –> 00:40:12.330
Casie Gillette: And it worked. And it was awesome. And you know there are people who are still figuring out how to game the system and at the

309
00:40:12.360 –> 00:40:27.720
Casie Gillette: End of the day, like, yes, like we’re not personally. It’s not like I’m doing over here doing anything shady, but I am working really hard to innocence game that algorithm. Right. I want my client site there and so

310
00:40:28.380 –> 00:40:37.080
Casie Gillette: What does that mean, well, it means you have to have a brand presence and it means you need to have content and, you know, yeah, these personal blogs don’t necessarily have that. So maybe they shouldn’t show up.

311
00:40:38.190 –> 00:40:39.750
Casie Gillette: And what are you trying to show up for so

312
00:40:39.990 –> 00:40:49.800
Jeff Louella: I don’t know i just i and i can show them like I didn’t want to get into because I’m anti drama myself, but I can show her where there’s personal blogs meeting some of my clients that

313
00:40:49.830 –> 00:40:50.790
Are driving. Yes.

314
00:40:52.080 –> 00:41:04.740
Casie Gillette: And it goes to the it goes to the sense of diversification exactly what we were just talking about, you know, for people who maybe you don’t have a big brands like you need to be looking at, you know, social or whatever it is, or medium or these

315
00:41:04.800 –> 00:41:06.480
Casie Gillette: Other platforms where you can gain

316
00:41:06.480 –> 00:41:12.600
Casie Gillette: Visibility because, I mean, even for my clients. I’m like, look how much time you have left in Google here, right.

317
00:41:13.920 –> 00:41:19.380
Casie Gillette: Time is limited for alive. So, you know, whether you’re a blogger not have enough people to sell things to complain, but

318
00:41:19.650 –> 00:41:20.880
Jeff Louella: What I find interesting.

319
00:41:20.880 –> 00:41:28.710
Jacob Stoops: About this is like, just like you guys said there are certain queries like across some of my clients were like

320
00:41:29.400 –> 00:41:35.940
Jacob Stoops: Half of the results are product pages and half of the results are articles.

321
00:41:36.570 –> 00:41:50.400
Jacob Stoops: blog articles resource articles, things like that. And as an SEO. It’s like it’s really interesting to try to figure out what Google thinks the real intent is. Is it informational is it transactional

322
00:41:51.000 –> 00:42:03.420
Jacob Stoops: But I would say to like the first comment about how, like, okay, Google never almost never surfaces blogs and personal websites what and my Google Pixel is going up as I’m saying saying this, so I’m

323
00:42:05.460 –> 00:42:06.630
Jacob Stoops: Always listening Google

324
00:42:08.340 –> 00:42:27.540
Jacob Stoops: It’s let’s just actually in inaccurate and I’m for, you know, I hate to to rail on this particular person. I don’t know what search that they were doing, but like honestly the last place I worked like we grew our traffic in about a year by like 100% and almost all of it was like

325
00:42:28.020 –> 00:42:32.850
Jacob Stoops: A blog. Yeah. And that brought in a lot of business. So like, there’s that.

326
00:42:34.050 –> 00:42:48.210
Jacob Stoops: The second part of this is the, the kind of more kerfuffle were like, Okay, well, just because there are people online that that optimize things to show up. We’re, we’re all assholes. Well,

327
00:42:49.530 –> 00:42:58.050
Jacob Stoops: Now you something like I feel like there are some because there are two sides of the fence one on one side of the fence. You’ve got people

328
00:42:59.160 –> 00:43:18.510
Jacob Stoops: In I think rightfully so, defending the industry and the people in it as not all assholes. Okay. And that and that’s true. Like, we’re not all assholes. But there are some assholes. It’s just like other place on Earth. There are things in there. There are not assholes in any profession ever

329
00:43:19.230 –> 00:43:24.810
Casie Gillette: So, you know, there’s people that are in this industry that I like very much but they’re still assholes.

330
00:43:25.110 –> 00:43:26.280
Casie Gillette: Right, yeah.

331
00:43:26.490 –> 00:43:28.110
Jacob Stoops: There’s, there’s even that. But then there are

332
00:43:28.110 –> 00:43:28.530
Jeff Louella: People on

333
00:43:28.560 –> 00:43:35.310
Jacob Stoops: The other side of the fence. And this is where I feel like for me in terms of my opinion because I believe that when

334
00:43:35.580 –> 00:43:41.760
Jacob Stoops: We’re all being generalized as assholes. We have a right to push back. But there are people on the other side of the fence and

335
00:43:42.300 –> 00:43:53.100
Jacob Stoops: I don’t understand it quite as much and I’m trying really hard that in one case like Tom Raynor who was a was a previous guest on the show and sometimes has

336
00:43:53.580 –> 00:44:07.500
Jacob Stoops: Some, some opinions on this, this type of stuff basically getting upset at the people for defending the industry and pushing back on on this type of stuff in there were other people saying, hey,

337
00:44:08.190 –> 00:44:16.530
Jacob Stoops: You’re missing the point. You’re missing the point. And I agree, like, okay, what what’s great about this country is that people are allowed to have

338
00:44:16.890 –> 00:44:26.250
Jacob Stoops: Opinions and there is freedom of speech and that’s awesome, but there’s not freedom from accountability. Right. You have the right to say whatever the hell you want

339
00:44:26.610 –> 00:44:35.370
Jacob Stoops: And so to other people. And you mentioned earlier that Twitter is great for our Twitter wouldn’t exist if people didn’t arch. You didn’t argue

340
00:44:35.400 –> 00:44:37.860
Jacob Stoops: Yeah, absolutely. So anyways,

341
00:44:40.470 –> 00:44:41.010
Jeff Louella: Okay.

342
00:44:42.060 –> 00:44:44.130
Jacob Stoops: Anyway, so let’s so let’s move on. Let’s

343
00:44:44.310 –> 00:44:45.480
Casie Gillette: We can hang with us all day.

344
00:44:46.950 –> 00:44:59.910
Jacob Stoops: Let’s quickly. Let’s get into kind of the team building want to be respectful of time. So let’s jump into the team building component and deep dive on that really quickly. So, Casie. How do you build a good SEO team.

345
00:45:00.300 –> 00:45:03.540
Casie Gillette: Yeah, so this was something that I was asking.

346
00:45:04.380 –> 00:45:18.270
Casie Gillette: You know, five years ago, six years ago, like I said, when I came back to KoMarketing. Um, there were probably about eight people eight or nine people that were here at the time and you know we were growing and I realized that once you hit that 10 to 12 mark.

347
00:45:19.470 –> 00:45:29.940
Casie Gillette: You need things like processes which like I hate my life just like God, like, all right, we need to do something like how do we actually make this scalable.

348
00:45:30.720 –> 00:45:38.550
Casie Gillette: And so I started talking to just different people in the industry about how they have grown their teams, you know, I was talking to will Scott

349
00:45:39.420 –> 00:45:47.430
Casie Gillette: Talking to Mike Arneson about like what they do for training and, you know, just thinking what these people were telling me I was like okay like

350
00:45:47.880 –> 00:45:59.010
Casie Gillette: What we actually have to do is, is give people the tools that that are going to make them successful but also you have to give them the process to lead them there. And I think that’s something that I struggled with a little bit

351
00:45:59.940 –> 00:46:18.000
Casie Gillette: Because I just don’t love having to tell people to do something a certain way because especially with search. There’s so many nuances, you know, and I see people who are like, Okay, well, you told me that I have to have 60 characters. And so I have 16 and I’m like, Oh, no.

352
00:46:20.070 –> 00:46:20.850
Casie Gillette: I just had

353
00:46:20.940 –> 00:46:27.150
Jacob Stoops: Somebody today asked me how important the little green bubble is in the Yoast SEO plugin.

354
00:46:27.690 –> 00:46:37.170
Casie Gillette: Yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s fine. So like you have to consider all that but I mean one of the things that that we realized is

355
00:46:37.980 –> 00:46:40.620
Casie Gillette: One. You just have to we start people slow

356
00:46:41.280 –> 00:46:48.720
Casie Gillette: But we also give them that you know we give them templates for things and we give them the tools they need and we give them the information they needed and

357
00:46:49.020 –> 00:47:03.720
Casie Gillette: You know, now we have managers who are helping and there’s people above them who are we’re guiding them through the process, especially people who they don’t have any experience with SEO. Right. They don’t know what it is. So I would also say the one thing that we have certainly changed.

358
00:47:04.890 –> 00:47:12.810
Casie Gillette: Is focusing on the user. And that’s one thing that I tell people the team now especially new people.

359
00:47:13.290 –> 00:47:21.900
Casie Gillette: When it comes to things like keywords is I always tell them like think about the user first. And that’s something that even that I feel like has changed.

360
00:47:22.590 –> 00:47:34.380
Casie Gillette: But you have to really think through all of the nuances that come with search and and that’s tricky, but I think when you’re building your team, you know, you learn it as you go. I’m still learning new things every day.

361
00:47:35.610 –> 00:47:37.290
Jeff Louella: Yeah. It’s funny, I always tell

362
00:47:38.400 –> 00:47:40.410
Jeff Louella: There’s different everyone has different ways of doing things.

363
00:47:40.410 –> 00:47:41.010
Casie Gillette: Right.

364
00:47:41.160 –> 00:47:46.950
Jeff Louella: When it comes to the title tags. Like, I’m kind of the anti like pipe between like keyword pipe keyword pipe.

365
00:47:47.400 –> 00:47:58.710
Jeff Louella: And just I’d rather it read something better and. And at the end, it’s not even like I don’t like pipe client I like you know by client or something, some so read, you know, it’s like

366
00:47:59.130 –> 00:48:02.040
Jeff Louella: A new Nike sneakers. But, you know, from whoever and it’s

367
00:48:02.520 –> 00:48:12.660
Jeff Louella: And it just little things like that were getting people in brand new and SEO and they read a lot of articles you just end up seeing it, like, way more robotic than it needs to be. And

368
00:48:13.140 –> 00:48:13.920
And yeah.

369
00:48:15.180 –> 00:48:21.660
Jeff Louella: Jake’s working on a lot of training stuff where and our work and it’s kind of, it’s tough to get the full gamut of everything you do.

370
00:48:22.350 –> 00:48:29.700
Jeff Louella: In there, so we’re trying to build a slow kind of library of videos and that when someone new comes in, they can go through them.

371
00:48:30.210 –> 00:48:30.990
Casie Gillette: It’s a great idea.

372
00:48:31.260 –> 00:48:33.330
Jeff Louella: I think just the relationships between

373
00:48:34.380 –> 00:48:39.120
Jeff Louella: People senior people and junior people is where I think a lot of team building needs to come from. So

374
00:48:39.210 –> 00:48:41.130
Casie Gillette: Yeah, and I mean even thinking about

375
00:48:42.150 –> 00:48:49.860
Casie Gillette: Like, how are we starting them so like we don’t just immediately drop someone into like doing keyword research. For example,

376
00:48:50.340 –> 00:48:59.070
Casie Gillette: But what we might have them do is optimize a page which forces them to figure out like how do I find the right keywords and how do I make sure that

377
00:48:59.280 –> 00:49:05.850
Casie Gillette: I’m you know I’m whatever I’m changing still relates to the user. But it also forces them to go look at search result so

378
00:49:06.060 –> 00:49:15.690
Casie Gillette: You know, kind of easing them into all of the elements before saying like, all right, like I’m going to have you go do this, this full scope of keyword research or whatever it might be.

379
00:49:16.650 –> 00:49:20.730
Jacob Stoops: How do you when you’re bringing people into the team, right, there’s

380
00:49:21.300 –> 00:49:32.790
Jacob Stoops: Just like in sports, right, there’s, there’s the X’s and O’s. Right. But then there’s also an element that’s a little bit more on definable called chemistry right and fit.

381
00:49:33.240 –> 00:49:39.720
Jacob Stoops: Within the team structure. So when you’re bringing people in and it doesn’t just have to be intro people, it can be mid level and senior people

382
00:49:40.890 –> 00:49:50.820
Jacob Stoops: What are the characteristics of a person that you look for in terms of that person’s fit as you’re constructing your team. Yeah.

383
00:49:50.850 –> 00:49:54.060
Casie Gillette: We said, I mean as an organization, we sat down about two years ago.

384
00:49:54.330 –> 00:50:04.710
Casie Gillette: And it tried to answer that question because we were we, you know, we really wanted to take hiring, we really take it seriously because again we’re a small team. So the people that you’re hiring. You’re putting a lot of investment into that person.

385
00:50:05.040 –> 00:50:18.600
Casie Gillette: And what we figured out is the people that were looking for, they have to be self motivated. I think that’s the biggest thing is like, we don’t have time. I don’t have time to micromanage people and also who likes that. Like nobody

386
00:50:19.260 –> 00:50:32.340
Casie Gillette: Can nobody likes that. So you have to be an element of being self motivated and in this industry where things change, like we’re talking about, you need to go figure. You have to be curious. Right. You have to go figure out

387
00:50:32.910 –> 00:50:42.270
Casie Gillette: Well, I looked at the search result yesterday, and now I’m seeing something different, like why or like last week, my client was here and now they’re not why

388
00:50:42.990 –> 00:50:55.890
Casie Gillette: So I think between being self motivated and curious. Those are such like key elements for us in the desire to learn is a big one, a really big one. So I love when we interview someone

389
00:50:56.970 –> 00:51:00.870
Casie Gillette: Excuse. Excuse me. I love when we interview someone and they say,

390
00:51:01.740 –> 00:51:10.230
Casie Gillette: Yeah, well I’ve been doing this but I’m really interested in this. So, you know, I went in took like the Google Analytics test because I wanted to learn about it right or

391
00:51:10.410 –> 00:51:21.540
Casie Gillette: I went and looked at HubSpot x because I wanted to learn about it. That’s the stuff that really intrigues me and I’m like, all right, this person, this person is going to be a good fit. So

392
00:51:21.750 –> 00:51:35.790
Jacob Stoops: Are there ever and I want to be. We’re running out of time so I’m squeezing squeezing questions. Are there ever people that check those boxes, but then come in and still are in a culture fit and how do you, I guess. How do you figure that

393
00:51:36.210 –> 00:51:42.180
Casie Gillette: We, we haven’t we haven’t had that honestly it we’ve been so lucky. I met. Oh.

394
00:51:43.020 –> 00:51:47.490
Casie Gillette: But we do like when the people come in, like, we’re very we work in an open office.

395
00:51:47.790 –> 00:51:56.850
Casie Gillette: Right. And I’m very just apparent like the questions that we ask are, you know, the questions I asked her what type of environment. Are you looking for. How do you like to be managed. How do you learn

396
00:51:57.750 –> 00:52:04.800
Casie Gillette: You know what, what is your, your dream job. What you know those questions, kind of, they can give you a lot of insights into that.

397
00:52:05.160 –> 00:52:12.810
Casie Gillette: But we also will have, like, it’s not just the leadership team who’s interviewing these people. We have their peers come in and talk to them.

398
00:52:13.290 –> 00:52:21.810
Casie Gillette: We have a, you know, middle managers come in and talk to them. So, you know, at the end, we’re all deciding does this person seem like a fit. And I think that helps

399
00:52:23.100 –> 00:52:25.560
Casie Gillette: Okay, we’ve had like one, maybe, maybe there’s like one

400
00:52:28.950 –> 00:52:30.480
Casie Gillette: So we’ve been lucky I guess.

401
00:52:31.440 –> 00:52:37.500
Jeff Louella: Awesome. So if you know you ain’t got a couple drinks and you’re talking to the bartender and the bartender says

402
00:52:37.800 –> 00:52:46.770
Jeff Louella: Hey, I want to follow the same steps that you did. I want to get into SEO. What kind of advice would you give them to go like come from, like, you know, bartender waitress or, you know,

403
00:52:46.770 –> 00:52:48.660
Jeff Louella: Any type of job into the SEO world.

404
00:52:49.140 –> 00:52:52.200
Casie Gillette: I tell people all the time. Start build a website.

405
00:52:53.220 –> 00:52:55.230
Casie Gillette: Even though they’re not showing up in search results.

406
00:52:55.800 –> 00:53:00.180
Casie Gillette: You know, start playing around with WordPress. I think WordPress is the easiest place to start.

407
00:53:00.990 –> 00:53:09.450
Casie Gillette: But just building your own site. I think that’s your best test environment you’re never going to learn more. That’s how, like, I didn’t know HTML. When I was coming out of school.

408
00:53:09.990 –> 00:53:17.550
Casie Gillette: I just started playing around with it. I started building my own websites. I’ve read like I got like HTML for dummies. I own I bought SEO for dummies.

409
00:53:18.570 –> 00:53:18.900
Casie Gillette: Me.

410
00:53:20.130 –> 00:53:22.140
Casie Gillette: You learn this stuff by doing it.

411
00:53:22.200 –> 00:53:23.430
Casie Gillette: And that’s never in that goes

412
00:53:23.430 –> 00:53:30.030
Casie Gillette: Back to the start of our conversation on being in an agency where you have these different places to play and explore and

413
00:53:30.360 –> 00:53:38.070
Casie Gillette: I would say just go and I tell the team here. Like if you want to learn. People are like, oh, I want to learn HTML, you can, it’s, it’s not really that hard.

414
00:53:38.850 –> 00:53:55.950
Casie Gillette: There’s plenty of places to do these things, but go start go start playing around and read. I mean, I read an hour every day. So every I pay attention to what’s what’s whether it’s on Twitter, whether it’s on my feed Lee feeds. I still read every single day to learn what else is new.

415
00:53:58.080 –> 00:54:02.880
Jacob Stoops: Reading is very, very important and underrated skill in this industry.

416
00:54:03.990 –> 00:54:12.210
Jacob Stoops: Well. Casie I’m know you’re running out of time and have a hard stop wanted to thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you.

417
00:54:12.540 –> 00:54:22.500
Casie Gillette: Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun. You can find me on twitter at Casie G. You can find me. I always say this, I’m LinkedIn. I’ve never on LinkedIn. Don’t find me there.

418
00:54:24.480 –> 00:54:26.580
Casie Gillette: Find me at KoMarketing com

419
00:54:27.030 –> 00:54:28.410
Jeff Louella: Cool, thank you so much.

420
00:54:28.410 –> 00:54:34.950
Jacob Stoops: For coming on and I know our audience will will love your episode. It was a great, great discussion.

421
00:54:35.550 –> 00:54:37.020
Casie Gillette: Well, thanks. It’s good to talk to you guys.

422
00:54:37.200 –> 00:54:37.680
Jacob Stoops: Thank you.

423
00:54:37.740 –> 00:54:38.280
To talk to you.

#33: Patrick Stox

Episode Summary

We sit down with Patrick Stox, Product Adviser at AHrefs, former technical SEO at IBM, and co-moderator of The TechSEO subreddit (one of the best SEO subreddits going right now) and organizer of several SEO meetups in Raleigh, NC.

We talk about:

  • How the downturn in the economy caused by the 2008 financial bubble led him to a career as a developer which eventually led him to SEO
  • His time at IBM
  • What he’s currently up to at AHrefs (also pronounced “Hrefs”)
  • The importance of practical experience rather than simply having a degree
  • The announcement that Speakable structured data is no longer restricted to news content
  • And so much more.

All Seasons

4.5/5

Please rate our podcast

We’d love if if you’d head on over to Apple (and other podcast platforms that accept ratings & reviews) and tell us what you (really) think.

Candid discussion on SEO life. Talking with a professional SEO about their life in the industry is a great way to learn about the challenges faced and what to expect for folks getting into it.
djs4mcs
Apple Podcasts user
Scroll to top